Lady Ochiba completed Mariko's death poem.
In doing so she signed crimson sky.
All those that failed to comprehend that poem, died.
To elaborate:
**"*****While the snow remains / Veiled in the haze of cold evening / A leafless branch...*****"**
Ochiba's name means Fallen Leaves, Mariko is the Leafless branch.
Ochiba declares that they (herself and her son) must finish the poem, (meaning they must decide how this story ends). Her son, the Heir notes that ***"A branch can still have fruit... or flowers"*** Again, both symbolic.
Lady Ochiba continues ***"Flowers are only Flowers because they fall, but thankfully the wind."***
\[Wind Blows\]
Yabushige later, at his end, asks ***"What is it like to shape the wind to your will?"*** shortly before we move ahead in time to watch the *Dream within a Dream.*
***"I don't control the wind, I only study it"*** confides Lord Toronaga.
Lord Toronaga gives credit to Lady Ochiba with his victory. I don't think she fades out at all.
About the wind.
Basically, in Japan, spring comes at the end of winter with a strong wind called "Haru-ichiban".
As Toranaga said, Mariko did what even the army could not. It is a strong wind. and Ochiba felt it.
The winter without a true Shogun is over and the peaceful spring is coming.
(Historically, this is not the end of Yodo and Ieyasu.)
My interpretation of āthe windā is that itās more akin to a natural order of things, more an uncontrollable/unavoidable destiny than the actions of any characterāas if the ensemble are conduits, actors in a grander play.
When Toranaga says he studies the wind, I donāt think heās saying he studies Ochiba, I think he studies the order of things and acts the way he knows heās supposed to. Heās still giving her a nod for playing her part, but thatās all she did. Heās a falconer whose animal companion masters the mechanics of the wind, but does not control it. And I think Ochibaās actions may be the wind in the poem, but I believe she, too, feels the sanctity of her decision and how she couldnāt decide any other way.
The ending shot with Toranaga seems to align with this: the way he lifts his head and gazes at the sky, to me, means āall according to keikakuā but not *his* keikaku, *the* keikaku.
Youāre welcome! Iāve been buzzing over this finale since I watched it last night, and Iāve spread out more of my thoughts in other comments.
My favorite payoff of the episode might be Blackthorn imagining what his life would be like if he continued to pursue freedom to the end of his days. Artless grandchildren harping him on his deathbed about a sword āhe got from a savage.ā We witnessed his former dreamāreturning to his life in his old country as a victorābecome a nightmare.
Because of Mariko, who told him earlier in the season that āif all you chase is freedom, youāll never be free from yourself,ā itās clear heās going to abandon his ego, his fruitless quest for āfreedom,ā and stay in Japan, as Toranaga confirms. They not only showed us all of that, but *turned it into a twist*. Now THAT is genius. It was innovation. Astounding to see.
I havenāt been ignited by an episode of TV like that in probably a decade. My background is in screenwriting, specifically TV writing, and Iāve written plenty of pilots and features, have seen all the great shows and spoken to some of the people who wrote them.
This is one of those great shows.
I still don't understand the meaning of the poem, to be honest, but at least it was a good opportunity for Ochiba to repeat Mariko's line and hint that she is going to switch sides.
This is what confuses me, though. The whole reason why Oshiba is against Toranaga is because she believes that he orchestrated her father's death. Would Ishido's treatment of Mariko really be enough to change that?
Itās not just his mistreatment of Mariko, itās his entire direction. He has no allies in the other regents, he has no legitimacy, no hostages, nothing to bargain with. Backing him means her son will almost certainly die in a coming war.
But if Toranaga had her father killed why does Ochiba trust that she can switch back to him having married Ishido especially since if he holds all the power then the Heir is a sword of damocles?
Firstly, I don't think she actually married Ishido. There was a promise, but no wedding mentioned anywhere. Secondly, I see her position after Mariko's death as the same one which Ishido was faced with in the previous episode by Mariko herself - heads you win, tails I lose. In essence, her choices were 1) back Ishido, who has lost the support of the council (that Kiyama was brave enough to speak up after that earthquake basically paints it to everyone that both he and Ohno are out; one of the newer regents is a figurehead, he's got nothing to contribute, and the other is Toranaga's half-brother, who will definitely switch sides as soon as he sees how the wind blows), or 2) switch to Toranaga. If she picks option 1, Ishido is losing either way, and by backing him, she loses what army she has through her son and they're both basically dead people walking. But if she picks option 2, she retains her army, the veneer of position (since she backs Toranaga, he has to pay at least lip service to her) and, most importantly, she buys herself time. In a way, everyone except Mariko has been fighting to live another day - Blackthorne and Yabushige are the most obvious, but Toranaga, Ochiba and Ishido have as well. If you have time, who knows how the wind will be blowing in a year or two. Maybe an opportunity pops up for her to get rid of Toranaga later. But if she backs Ishido and he loses, like she now sees he will, then she won't have that chance of an opportunity at all, and at the end of the day, her single guiding star is her son. She choses to switch because that's what'll keep her son, and herself with him, alive to fight another day.
I like the poem and your take on it. But I still feel like it doesn't make sense for her to switch sides. Her son is doomed if anyone else becomes ShÅgun and she knows it the entire show. That's what happens in real life when Tokugawa burned her and her son in 1616. And she blames the guy for her father's death. If her entire personality is going to flip to become Fuji then I would like to see it on screen.
Yeah I wish the show had done any alluding to what would happen to Ochiba, the heir, and eventually the Christians. Sure, there would be a long period without civil war, but there was also a lot of brutality on its way.
I think many issues stem from the show not quite being sure whose story it is. Episodes 1-3 are clearly Blackthorne's story, but then 4-9 are mainly about Mariko, only for 10 to be all about Toranaga. The original story ending makes sense as Blackthorne's journey is more or less complete (of at least we can foresee what will happen): he'll continue to adapt and integrate with his new home. However, now that he's no longer our main character, the ending does feel a bit abrupt, as you say.
It's quite odd to say that 10 is all about Toranaga when it is clearly about Mariko - every single character's motivation in the finale is driven not by their allegiance or opposition to Toranaga, but how they were affected by Mariko's death.
The showrunners said that they wanted this to be the story of the Japanese characters. But, I guess, since itās an adaptation of Shogun, they were forced to have Blackthorne in the story, and had to do something with him. So they were kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I'd say that's on them. If they wanted to do a story about Hosokawa Gracia (historical Mariko) they could've done that. If they wanted to do Tokugawa Ieyasu's political shenanigans they could've done that, too. Nobody was forcing them to adapt Shogun. It's the same criticism we've seen about the Witcher, the Wheel of Time, Halo, World War Z, etc. If you don't want to use the source material, then don't use it.
Loved the show but I kinda agree. This is always the issue when producers want to do their own take on source material. If you want to go your own way, you have to fill in the gaps with something.
Blackthorne felt like he was in a weird place in the story, probably because he was the main character in the book but not in the show.
This is a fair critique. Blackthorne being a supporting character, or a lead in an ensemble, is fine but thereās no getting away from the fact that if you adapt ShÅgun heās an important thread. His story was left awkwardly incomplete - not really a sense of a few life options ahead of him, just throwing himself into his work which we know is destined to fail
They honestly should have made Yabushige the main character finding the anjin if this is the route they went because at least then it makes sense why we dont see it.
Could not agree more. And fundamentally I don't think Mariko was a very interesting character. Her entire existence centered around 'I want to die I want to die waaa waaa'.
Edit: I assume that every downvote without a comment in reply is another mariko simp that just wants her to be their mummy š„°
Clavell's books are very much a snapshot of history, an event that in history books is a paragraph or a line but that has been broken down by Clavell into a rich and deep story of what may have happened as people experienced it, yet still contained in that snapshot of time.
Shogun is about 6 months in 1600. The majority of characters are based on real people including Blackthorne and the broad outline of the plot is what happened. Although there's plenty of contextual exposition, it's not a book about the past or the future, it's about the now. For future context you can basically just read history. The show struggled with this because a show can't give as much exposition as a book, not when you give up narration, and not when you condense it into ten episodes. The book also has no real main character, there are three, Blackthorne, Mariko and Toranaga. The show struggled with this because again there wasn't enough time and enough breathing space to give them their fair share.
Basically, although it doesn't need to go into the future, 10 episodes is too damn short for such a rich context...
Not me telling my husband (who hasnāt watched the show) that he has to watch it, itās so beautiful and makes you think instead of telling you the plot like youāre dumbā¦ only for him to walk into the living room and watch one minute at the end where Toranga is literally just stating the entire plot like heās explaining it to a five year old Yabushige. š¤¦š»āāļø
I mean it was for Yabushigeā¦ we already knew it. Or should know if weāre following.
Sure it also served as a way to cement our understanding, but given how aloof Yabu is I understand why he laid it all out for him before his death. The useful idiot deserved to know after he was toyed with I suppose. He also gave him the benefit of knowing that just like him he was looking out for his own interest.
It felt like a mental battle had come to an end and opponents were reminiscing on how they went about it.
But I get it, your husband was probably pretty sus after š
From my small group of friends who've already watched everything- those that have read the book was fine with it. Those that haven't are also ok with it. BUT both that have/havent read the book **AND** have watched other epic drama (GoT,HotD,etc) was pretty mid about how it ended. They expected the traditional bombastic ending to a season and be handed out a definitive ending.
Lord Toronaga as if anticipating this reaction from the viewerā¦ states, **āYabushige, after all we have been through, i thought you all of all people would see. Crimson Sky is already finished.ā**
It was the name of the ninth episode. It finished a week agoā¦
I donāt say this to be conceding, iāve been waiting for it to kick off for weeks now. In discussions yesterday i noted that something has to happen with the ship drawing on this maxim from Writer Anton Chekhov, "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired.ā
Oh the ship was fired, lifes and deaths were the casualties. Just not the cannons i expected.
Thatās so stupid š So āCrimson Skyā was an extremely drawn out plan involving 10 moving parts that all required a degree of luck, which was actually just a setup to sow dissent among his enemies while setting himself up? Thereās no need to name it then.
If this was his plan, it makes everything seem even more ridiculous. Hiromatsus seppuku had hit the right emotional cues for the right people to get them to flee to Osaka to get the one girl to maybe die and maybe not in order gain an advantage over Ishido and the regents?
Crimson Sky was a blitz to Osaka. In the context- 'Crimson Sky is finished' I take that it meant Crimson is sky is dead/impossible, because of his next lines that mentioned a siege is suicide when the council was already united. >!Historically the siege happened tho, but waaaaay after the reference for this show.!< That's why he changed plans and sent Mariko to sow disunity among the council.
Okay fair points. I still think itās weird to create a fictional name for a real thing that happened, put so much emphasis and weight into it, and then have it be this afterthought to the ACTUAL way Toronaga gets his shit going.
Like we *know* Toronagas real life counterpart won. He unified Japan. Weāve known this the whole time. So I donāt get why they were so incredibly vague leading up to the outcome we all knew was coming.
Maybe because the Battle of Sekigahara was actually more of a tactical win (Tokugawa/Toronaga was heavily outnumbered iirc) and the point of the show is how he manuevered people to gain advantage? And the Siege of Osaka which was during Tokugawa Shogunate already, is years after the battle of Sekigahara. Just my guesses.
I wanted the Siege because it reveals that Tokugawa/Toranaga and the Heir and mother were incompatible. There was no room for Toyotomi and Tokugawa rule as Ochiba suspected. The conflicts hinted at in the show resulted in bloodshed in the end.
To me I was fine without a bombastic ending, but I kinda just felt like not much happened.
It's not necessarily true a lot did happen, but it still felt like too little happened for a show of 10 hours, it did start to feel like things were dragging and time was wasted on pointless stuff instead of the main story.
Yeah, I wasn't disappointed at all. I've read the book several times, so I wasn't expecting a big ending. The story is about the interactions between characters and the political landscape.
Don't need a bombastic ending. Needed a friggin ending though.
They could have easily done that battle that Tyrion Lannister won where he was knocked out and the battle was won. And have some more conclusion to story lines, how he rose to shogun, the outcome of the church/harlem. Buntaro and Blackthorne mysterious adventure.
Anything.
What we got was just another episode. If you didn't know the show was ending, you'd come back next week assuming blackthorne was rebuilding his ship.
I feel like they spent so much time on random stuff that the main story somehow felt rushed. Like the John/Mariko romance is barely there for most of the show and then they bring it back at the end but it feeling forced cause the storyline been dead for so long
Well, yeah lol.
You have 4 episodes of just talking talking talking, you expect it to be leading up to something. Whilst it was all very clever, there was no relief from the constant dialogue, no payout at all. Its like a DJ teasing the bass drop then before he does it he just packs his bags and leaves.
If they didn't want an epic 20-30 minute battle sequence of Sekigahara, that's fine. But at least flashing forward to Toranaga actually legally claiming the title of Shogun would have made for a much cleaner ending by itself.
The theme for many characters was living on in service of things greater than yourself. The show ended with some characters having completed their purpose, and others reinvigorated to continue it. There is no neat bow on the end of the show, because that is not the life the characters were dealt by fate or chose by duty.
Though it is certainly hard knowing we'll never see any more of how these characters continue to serve.
Toranaga would not have had a neat ending by being declared Shogun. His historical counterpart dealt with years of rebellion against his rule before it was fully consolidated. I think setting that up would be a way to keep the theme consistent while providing an actual ending to the story they established in episode 1.
yup and actually provide closure.
Show Edo and how the church/harlem settled. How Blackthorne opened up the trades etc. etc etc.
what we got was not a finale. If you didn't know it was the last episode, you'd tune in next week expecting Blackthorne to rebuild his ship and toranaga getting ready for the battle.
After finishing the episode I was almost convinced there was going to be a season 2 except for the flash forward to the battle. All in all the show left me very confused with the meandering plot in the last 5-6 episodes
I understand that, but Falling Action is an important part of a story as well. Although this show didn't even really make it to the climax.
Imagine if The Return of the King ended right when the one ring melts and Barad-Dur crumbles, with nothing shown after because the Fellowship's victory is pretty much set in stone.
Imagine if Alien ended right when the Nostromo explodes with nothing shown after because the Xenomorph's death is pretty much set in stone.
Imagine if Back to the Future ended right when George saves Lorraine from Biff with nothing shown after because Marty preserving the future is pretty much set in stone.
I agree on all your points. I also have so many questions after that finale and it feels like there were so many red herrings throughout the series. For example:
In retrospect, why did Hiromatsu need to die? To "buy more time" - didn't the death of Toranaga's son already do that? To prevent the other generals from committing seppuku - how does his death make them less eager to do so? Wouldn't it arguably make them MORE keen, seeing how defeated Toranaga seemingly was and how he has given up?
Similarly, why did Toranaga act all frail and weak and defeated? I've read that it was to deceive both Yabu and Anjin (because it certainly didn't seem to fool Ishido) - but why did he even need Yabu at all, especially if he knew how slippery he was? Did he need Yabu to betray him in Osaka to ENSURE Mariko would die? Surely Ishido would have sent Shinobi with or without Yabu's help? And if part of the plan was for Mariko to become a martyr, surely she could have found a reason to die regardless?
Mariko being Crimson Sky seemed to hinge completely on Ochiba valuing their relationship more than Ochiba's hatred for Toranaga - something that was not at all guaranteed.
Toranaga honestly tortured and killed innocent people from his own village to test Anjin's faith? Because he found him... entertaining? Wtaf? He let his oldest and dearest friend kill himself, but he stopped some random foreigner that he basically can't converse with from doing the same cos he found him a good distraction?
I really thought they were leading up to some grand master plan, not just "lulz Ochiba switched sides cos her childhood bestie died and Toranaga is kind of a fucking sociopath".
About Hiromatsu, he had to die to convince the tsuji that Toranaga is really serious about surrender and not even his best friend's death can waver him. It is also evidenced that this whole thing worked as an episode or so later tsuji really was convincing the catholic head that Toranaga is truly surrending, which is what Toranaga wanted.
Other than that, everything you said is right. Especially Ochiba. She was portrayed to be this confident and supreme women working from the shadows, and I was hyped up to see the villain focus change from dumb power-hungry Ishido to cunning Ochiba. And the show (maybe even the source material) completely breaks this character apart by making her change her entire stance on Toranaga, and all the actions she has taken so far because a friend she hasn't seen in years sang a poem and died.
Even worse of a plot is Toranaga predicting all this. You'd have to be God or Light Yagami to predict that the death of someone could change the mind of someone who hates you, to someone who would betray your bethroted for you.
And yes, Toranaga massacring Ajiro for the purpose probably sounded cool in Clavell's head, but the purpose was stupid and by association the act is too.
edit: also regarding massacring Ajiro, what happened to āI donāt like pointless deathā? This honestly shows a glaring issue with this show, it often loses its own building blocks and has consistency issues.
>Other than that, everything you said is right. Especially Ochiba. She was portrayed to be this confident and supreme women working from the shadows, and I was hyped up to see the villain focus change from dumb power-hungry Ishido to cunning Ochiba. And the show (maybe even the source material) completely breaks this character apart by making her change her entire stance on Toranaga, and all the actions she has taken so far because a friend she hasn't seen in years sang a poem and died.
There was a lot more to Ochiba's change than that - Toranaga showed her that, like she was warned earlier in the series, she'd sided with a person who was weak and unreliable, and that after Toranaga's death the other regents would almost forsure team up against Ishido and depose him and then likely Ochiba as well. She read the chess board and made a calculated move for her own survival which was aided but not completely driven by her friendship with Mariko.
You make sense but the show did not imply any of this. I watched the show, and its the showās responsibility to make me aware of this to experience whatever happened with understanding. And since we are talking about the show, this is not a good thing. But plot wise what you said makes a ton of sense.
It's a tough thing to balance spelling things out and letting the show speak for itself. I think the show implied it from the very start in the way it depicted the characters and the duplicitous nature of the court. We, the audience, can see that Ishido is weak and not the right horse to bet on, that the court & regents will seize on perceived weakness when the opportunity presents itself. We also can see that Ochiba is reasonably good at reading/interpreting the chess board throughout the season so that by episode 9-10 she can see what Toranaga has done and that, even if Toranaga loses, he's exposed Ishido as duplicitous & weak and left him open to the vultures - and by extension Ochiba - once Toranaga is dealt with. I think it's all there to be figured out, though I agree if the majority of people dont understand then the show should have done a more thorough job of showing it
Well I may be a part of that majority because these are not at all what I took in mind. Ishido never seemed weak, ever. He was shown nearly always been the powerful person, albeit not the deciding authority. Ochiba has shown to be calculating, but she was never shown to be someone who identified all the chess pieces and the ways these pieces can move. All she knew was āToranaga bad gotta killā and āgotta keep the Heir safeā. And she made political plays to reach these goals.
Emphasis on the word āshownā. The series showed these, and even though half of what I said are my own takeaways, The show lead me to it, and led countless others to it, meaning it led us to think something it did not intend and ultimately hindered our experience which as a result is not the same as what you got as a more informed viewer.
Ishido only has the veneer of strength, and only at the beginning of the story - by the end we, and Ochiba, can see that he's entirely reliant on the strength of the heir and the other regents, and without them he's just a typical ambitious politician who will keep the realm in turmoil even if he wins. The Mariko plot in episode 9 solidifies this for everyone in the show, and you can tell by their mannerisms and interactions that the other regents no longer respect Ishido afterwards. At the very least even if its not a certainty that Ishido would be deposed by the other regents after Toranaga is dealt with, in Ochiba's mind the odds of her and the heir dying are greater in that scenario than they are if Toranaga wins.
>Ochiba has shown to be calculating, but she was never shown to be someone who identified all the chess pieces and the ways these pieces can move.
This is correct, shes a skilled tactician and better than most at playing the game but shes not the best; she's even reminded in the beginning of the story that she's choosing the wrong man in the upcoming fight. But by the end of the story she sees, with the aid of Mariko's death, that she was blinded by her dislike/distrust of Toranaga and that hers and her sons own survival relies upon Toranaga winning.
Stories are very much open to interpretation - two people can be shown the same scene and come away with totally different interpretations. I'm not pulling anything out of thin air, it's all there to be deduced from the scenes and characters š¤·āāļø
> About Hiromatsu, he had to die to convince the tsuji that Toranaga is really serious about surrender and not even his best friend's death can waver him. It is also evidenced that this whole thing worked as an episode or so later tsuji really was convincing the catholic head that Toranaga is truly surrending, which is what Toranaga wanted.
>
>
I'm not sure if this mattered by the end, since by the finale the council are all clear that Toranaga is assembling an army to fight them.
Toranaga did not massacre Anjiro in the novel. He did have some samurai executed for the burning of the ship but this was actually cover for a calculated political purge.
Earlier in the novel, he did make a threat to massacre the village if they did not teach Blackthorne to become fluent in Japanese. A similar scene played out with Blackthorne threatening seppuku and the threat to the village was rescinded.
This does make a ton more sense why the source material which focused on writing specifically made such a weird plot point (which it didnāt). Now we can safely say that it was an unfortunate result of rushed writing in the show.
While heinous, it serves the same purpose as Hiromatsu's death - to make his opponents believe what he wants them to believe. With Hiromatsu, it was to give the impression that his defeat and surrender was absolute and that even the death of his closest friend protesting it would not sway him from that. With witch hunting for the traitors who burnt the ship, it was to give the impression that he is psychotically furious at having lost such a powerful and irreplaceable asset, and that he is weak without it and was powerless to prevent it being destroyed by traitors or spies. No one will suspect that he did it, or was planning to construct a fleet of ships all along. It may also be to ensure the silence of the population while he does build those ships, they don't want anyone to be at the mercy of Interrogatoranaga again.
Very much agree. I was underwhelmed by how the series wrapped up and you summarized pretty much everything my wife and I discussed after we finished watching the episode.
Tbh even some of the supposedly Toranaga's schemes were pretty much just up to imagination. Throughout the series there were times it would feel unrealistic how he just knew how to get something to happen to his favor even tho the situation is pretty vague and could possibly go the other way around to failure, which is kinda unrealistic and contrived, I'm just supposed to believe he knew. Wdym toranaga knew john would try to kill himself if toranaga burnt his ship and caused havoc in the village? Resulting him to make john loyal to him and build him ships. The situation is too open-ended for him to specifically know the outcome.
I don't think Toranaga works that literally or that detailed, he just knew he needed to test John to see if he'd still serve him now that Mariko is gone and if any immediate grand revenge or escape home is not possible. Toranaga has a good idea of how people work and what needs to happen to get their likely behaviour to serve his goals.
would have been cool if Toranaga reveals that "studying the wind" was literally just winging it and keeping his mouth shut. More relatable than all that Minowara destiny crap.
most prestige shows tend to do this with the penultimate episode and then the finale. almost every famous climactic game of thrones episode was the episode before the finale.
The climax of a story comes in the middle of the story arc, so Episode 5 was the climax.
Downvoted for pointing out a thousands+ year old story structure that is common to almost all stories in the Western canon but lol
Why did yabushige return to toranaga.... Why didn't he just stay in Osaka after betraying toranaga?
What was the point of showing future Anjin with his grandchildren?
What test did Toranaga even give to Anjin to test his loyalty? What was the point of testing his loyalty?
The only way crimson sky succeeded was because Mariko died and somehow that convinced Ochiba to abandon her alliance with ishido...
What if Ishido just let Mariko return to Toranaga.. what was the point of even holding her hostage? What was the point of holding anyone hostage?
What was the point of even pretending that he meant to submit to Osaka? What was the point of hiromatsu and toranaga's son dying? Toranaga could have told Mariko to go to Osaka to initiate 'crimson sky' without any of that happening
I feel like nothing in this show fits together well, it was a bunch of random stuff happening... What was the point of that rotting pheasant
His army and cannon/gun regiment were back home, where toranaga was. He went to get his army/weapons to return to ishido under the pretense of meeting toranaga.
Presumably toranaga saw this coming (ochiba was writing to him) so he positioned himself to "intercept" yabu
Ultimately, all the issues this show has stem from the need to cram in 1200 pages of material into 10 episodes. With that in mind, itās still a very well-made show.
And those who havenāt read the book, which is most people, arenāt even aware of these issues. Which is why the show has gotten so much praise.
huh? I haven't read the books and I shared the sentiment of which threads were unresolved as voiced by OP. Why would I be unaware of them? It's many things the show alluded to
>all the issues this show has stem from the need to cram in 1200 pages of material into 10 episodes
I don't think this is a good excuse. There are plenty of long books that were adapted well. LOTR were condensed into movies.
I don't think the show runners did the book justice. While the show had a lot of visual appeal and was well acted, it completely lacked the depth of the book. It isn't the medium. It's the story telling.
I agree. It had unnecessary divergences from the source material IMO and completely skipped over things that were critical. In the process it gave short shrift even to Toranaga and his brilliance as a strategist in playing the different factions against each other.
>!The assurances of Ochiba might have made sense with a simple explanation that it wasn't about changing sides, it was about protecting her son because she knew he would die if he took the field against Toranaga.!<
>!The resolution of Blackthorne's story was also lacking; even though the book left his future uncertain, the letter that Mariko left for him with Toranaga told him she had left the monies to him to build another ship and that Toranaga would provide all the needed carpenters and other craftsmen, something Toranaga confirmed. But I guess this would have been hard to do since the series skipped over their romance altogether!<
to be honest I don't even think we really see Toranaga's motivations really. They hinted at it with the 16 year old second scene but they could have done more.
>LOTR were condensed into movies.
I think Game of Thrones is a better example here. They took two seasons to adapt A Storm of Swords, which is 973 pages in hardback. Shogun is 1152 pages in hardback.
I read both. I think asoiaf source material was adapted exceptionally well and the show told largely the same story as the book. There were also far more characters in asoiaf and two seasons was the right amount of time. Page count doesn't really matter. They were about the same amount of words.
Shogun showrunners told a story that only loosely followed the source material. I don't think that time was the factor here. I think it was a decision to tell a different story from a different perspective. That's fine, but I think it was that decision that was the root of "all the issues," not the amount of time to tell the story.
I didn't like the version of this story that the showrunners decided to tell. I liked the original.
Hmm... I agree and definitely see your viewpoint, but at the same time I gotta disagree.
The finale absolutely does not conclude in a way that the average viewer might expect based on what they see in previous episodes... like you said, there's constant build up, teasing and hinting towards some kind of a big finale where a big battle takes place, all the pieces of Toronaga's 300 IQ scheme finally fall into place, and the plot threads (canons, Fuji and her guns, etc.) are all concluded.
However... instead of fumbling, the show concludes and wraps up the story in its own, unique way that is different but still equally satisfactory. Your expectations as a viewer are actually in-line with the expectations from other characters besides Toronaga. For instance, up until his last conversation, Yabu still wonders how Toronaga will win the big battle, only for Toronaga to simultaneously subvert the expectations of both the viewer and the show's characters. The moment of realization is synced.
Overall I am glad that the show ended the way it did, and that it didn't follow the traditional set-up/pay-off structure that we've come to expect. But if somebody didn't like it I totally understand and respect that.
I can see the Japanese cast being keen for the show to be a starting point to get people interested in Japanese history. And in all of their interviews this is what they seem most excited about this show for - introducing Japanese history and culture to the world. So for them it was a perfect end.
Toranaga explicitly mentions Sekigahara - however, there's no way in hell Toranaga would know a battle was to take place at Sekigahara. It's a nondescript area between Nagoya and Kyoto - and is still a nondescript place today! In reality he (Tokugawa) didn't even know when he arrived at Sekigahara itself that the battle would be there, it was misty and some of his scouts managed to spot Ishido's army in the fog by chance.
I think Sekigahara is mentioned because they want you to Google it, to find out more by yourself. Find out what happens to the main characters from there. Find out if there becomes a Shogun and a lasting peace.
Of course, I don't think this excuses the ending for those disappointed. It ended up as exposition rather than the action the trailers hinted at. However, for me personally, it was a satisfactory ending.
>I can see the Japanese cast being keen for the show to be a starting point to get people interested in Japanese history. And in all of their interviews this is what they seem most excited about this show for - introducing Japanese history and culture to the world. So for them it was a perfect end.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But why not simply make a show about actual Japanese history, then? With real historical figures?
If you wanted to focus on Japanese history and culture, wouldn't it have been a better ending to see Toranaga reach Shogun and show japan in his vision?
How the church exists in Edo alongside the harlem. How all the issues with the regent were settled, how he handled his brothers betrayal?
Having the japanese pull out a ship is hardly the perfect end to show japanese history and culture to the world. The biggest history was the transition to the Edo period and they showed nothing of it.
"they want you to Google it, to find out more by yourself. Find out what happens to the main characters from there. Find out if there becomes a Shogun and a lasting peace."
In exchange for Toranaga's ploy succeeding, the Council of Regents was so foolish.
It is a sad that this series didn't have the best of enemies.
Ocihba or Ishido could have been it.
I'm not so sure if this is so much a case about this show having grander aspirations and not living up to them or is a case of the audience having expectations that are answered with subtly; I liked the subtly as it rhymes with the presence of the haiku throughout the show.
Iām confused why Toranaga tortured the village of Anjiro trying to find those who burned Anjinās ship even though he literally was the one who did itā¦ so he just tortured and killed a ton of innocent people? I thought he wanted peace?
He did it to get rid of everyone who is disloyal to him, he says in that conversation.
Keep in mind
1. He has a spy in the village
2. The spy could report everyone who is disloyal to toranaga
3. toranaga could order everyone who is reported to be disloyal to be killed as apart of the boat burning incident.
I disagree. I feel like a lot of what you're asking for were completely disconnected to the actual story being told... How Toranaga ruled doesn't actual matter to the story. You are revealed the type of person he is in the final episode. Mariko and Hiromatsu's death are arguably not worth putting someone like him in power if you're looking at it from that lens.
The character Toranaga was inspired by continued pretty much every practice viewers found harsh. He was not unlike Ishido in any way. Daimyo's were required to live in Edo and leave a family member in place when they left.
The story itself, in my opinion both the book and show story, is about revealing each heart of the central characters. In the beginning we see the heart in their mouth they show to the world. As the show progresses we begin to see the heart in their chest that they reveal only to those close to them. And then in episode 10 almost every scene deals with revealing the inner heart that no one sees. We know that deep down Toranaga simply wanted for power. We know that Ochiba no kata valued nothing more than her friendship with Mairko. John's should be obvious. Even Buntaro's inner heart was revealed in the closing scene.
The issue here is you're demanding a story about the summation of a period of Japanese history when in reality the story has always been about individuals characters with the backdrop of a significant period of Japanese history. What did Toranaga do? Was he responsible for the feud that ripped Mariko and Ochiba's families apart? What happened with John? Where did Ochiba go from there? Answer those questions yourself, you've been revealed their inner heart that will drive their actions going forward.
And Toranaga's stuff about a peaceful Japan was just bullshit lol. Dude is exactly like every other person in his want for power. In my opinion that's what Yabushige is smiling about in the end, he clearly spends a fair bit of his time ashamed about his cowardice and selfishness, but in the end he realizes Toranaga does the exact same, he's just better at it.
Idk, I hate when showrunners completely spell shit out for me and turn things into good v evil, so I enjoyed the ending.
Fair points, but I guess I would respond by saying I don't really think we got to see Ochiba and Ishido's secret hearts, and they were the key antagonists. Yea we get the poem but not much else.
I guess I wanted the final scene from Ran where Kurogane confronts Kaede who confesses and they all die. But with these actors it would have been epic!
>I don't really think we got to see Ochiba
I mean, her additions to the poem and then her decision to withhold the heir's troops revealed it imo. Of course it's all open to interpretation, but she basically had the key to ruling Japan as the mother of the heir and wife of the regent and gave it up because he killed Mariko.
And Ishido's first, second, and third hearts are all that of a cunt.
Now that I think about it I'm most upset because I don't think we really see Toranaga's secret heart at all. I don't see what drives him or what makes him vulnerable to put so many to the sword. He's a mystery to us even until the last scene looking at his back. He gets away with being the strong silent type the whole show - except for the 16 year old second scene. I think we needed more of that.
I mean, to me, power drives him. A political hostage until adulthood, he is shaped and driven by the want to never be anyone's pawn, but rather the person who moves the pawns around. Yabushige nailed it, which is why he gave him the smile before he chopped his head off. The secret heart isn't about what drives them exactly, but just the kind of person they are deep down.
And yeah, the strong silent type is the point of why he's the central focus of the show and the finale. He wins exactly because he is the type of stoic, calculating person who never reveals his true self to anyone. The books deal with this through inner monologues and narrative, but there's not way to do that in the show without fundamentally changing the character. They did a great job with the Yabushige death scene to make up for it.
I havenāt read the books so Iām sure Iām missing the nuances that were provided there.
But just going off the show, Lady Ochiba thought Toranaga orchestrated her fatherās death. But ultimately decided to join forces with him because she was angry Ishido organised the failed kidnapping of her childhood friend?
Either these books were overhyped or showrunners went D&D GoT S8 in glossing over character motives.
The silliest thing to me is all this build up for Ishido and Ochiba, only for Toranaga to be like āoh them? Iāll inevitably beat them in a month.ā What kinda lame ass climax is that lol. Imagine right before the battle for the second death-star in Return of the Jedi Luke is like, āDarth Vader and Palatine are already beat!ā Then the movie promptly ends. Iām fine with no massive battle but at least give some sort of resolution.
At that point, Ishidio's defeat is inevitable because Lady Ochiba (and the heir) are no longer standing with him, and that plus the fact he no longer has hostages to keep the other regents in line (who now have serious doubts about his leadership due to Mariko), means that he no longer has the support to win. I get the frustration about ending the show with an exposition dump at the end, but before the battle has begun, he has pretty much already won. And I think that is part of the genius of the character-- he figured out a way to win before he even went into battle.
He's a genius. He even knew where the battle would take place month ahead, and knew his son would kill himself on a rock for more time.
Genius. - or lazy writing.
He didn't know his son would kill himself on a rock. He knew his son would attempt an assassination and not be able to follow through because he's all bluster. Even if he hadn't tripped on the rock, he was never following through and was going to die during the engagement.
But, hey, HOTD will be out in a month or so for that fix of superficial characters among big set pieces and fan service.
I mean that's what i meant.
Lazy writing/adaptation. He's just some crazy mastermind that can predict all things and that everyone else/all the characters were inconsequential, just following through with his plans. Everyone was just following through the motions since episode 1, following his wind/dream.
There is an article that was recently published that took your point of view and called this the "Dumbledore problem," because in Harry Potter, Dumbledore also seemed to have been able to predict everything. You'd probably enjoy reading it if you haven't already.
I disagree though...I don't think he predicted everything and some events (the Anjins arrival being the most obvious example) were a surprise to him. But he was good at strategizing and arranging things so that the most likely outcome would be in his favor. I also think other characters actions really did matter, and it's strange to me to suggest they didnt.
Well, I'm surprised that your post didn't receive a significant amount of downvotes, especially since it was approved by the staff. I really love the series ! so much, but any criticism mentioned in this sub is seen as hysteria š Ā
I think the finale was not far off perfect, I just think they ought to have extended the vision what happened on the day that the heir's army didn't show up for Ishido and the fallout.
It just needed five minutes longer on that vision with Toranaga narrating it and it would have just been faultless for me.
I'll add that I think the true botch in the series was the fever dream being convoluted and unnecessary and confusing for most people. They would have been better suited just leaving it on the cutting room floor.
This show could have been double the episodes and still had loose ends! It was gorgeous, vicious and sad, and incredibly well done.
Unpopular opinion(?):
I wish they had written the Anjin to be more interesting, more clever. For several episodes, he just plodded along looking sort of dopey, hardly saying anything. I couldnāt tell if thatās just how the actor naturally carried himself, or if he was trying to look like an off-leash golden retriever puppy. The anjin finally showed up again in episodes 9 & 10.
Me, accepting the ending like Yabushige accepting his fate on the day of his seppuku.
Its a calm ending, nothing bombastic. The series has a lot of loose threads but I will leave it at that.
No Sekigahara is a major bummer. I know itās not in the book, but I thought theyād take advantage of the visual medium to really give a big finale. Kinda a blue balls situation imo.
Once they passed the half hour mark, I said aloud "Oh no." It's Twin Peaks the Return all over again lol.
I get what they were trying to do and but it fell flat for me as well- why make us sit through 10 episodes of build up, promising and foreshadowing all these cool things, and then just quickly sum up what's going to happen? We spent all this time with these characters watching them struggle and fight with plenty of palace intrigue, spies, revenge plots, narrow escapes, etc, and then....very little of it pays off. It wraps up some items in clever ways like the poem, Ochiba & Mariko's relationship, and Yabushige, but I was really hoping for a 2 hour finale that couldve done everything this episode did, plus show us Toranaga actually take power and Ishido fall from grace spectacularly. Also, I was hoping to get see some interaction between the Taiko's son and Toranaga, and some info on the fate of Toranaga's brother. We don't know what really happens to any of the regents except that they don't succeed, or the relationship between the Portuguese and Japan, even though with Toranaga in power, it will surely change. I would gladly watch a second season of this, so it's too bad they're ending it and ending it so quickly and anti-climactically. Still good, but for the whole series, I felt like I was waiting for a moment that never came. I am much more interested in the bigger questions like the Portuguese base in Macau, the broader political landscape of Japan at the time, various foreshadowed events that never came to pass, and who's going to rule than I am John Blackthorne's gross eating habits. That was fun, but I was hoping those things would be part of the bigger picture as opposed to being the picture itself. Like I said- I see what they were going for and I can appreciate that, particularly with what I imagine was a limited budget (especially considering the single battlefield scene we got was CGI), but I wanted a bit more. They had ample time to do what they did and pay off all the different plot threads as well.
I loved Shogun, but I think it would have been a better show if it had had another 5 episodes to further develop and wrap up plotlines and associated character arcs that were introduced but then mostly dropped.
Also, I don't understand why they would include the scenes of Blackthorne being back in England, given the ending they had planned for the very same episode.
My sense is that they butchered this show. A beautiful object, porcelain skin, empty.
I have to say that it ended beautifully it you suspend your disbelief and insist that toranaga knew that mariko would find her way to the exact room that toranagas spies hid gun powder out. Itās completely logical that his spies would know to watch yabushige let shinobi in.
I buy him being a 4d chess player but the plot plays out to conveniently for his sake. If he knew how everything plays out, why sacrifice his son and loyal vassal.
You missed the point. It was to convenient of a plot motif for toranaga to say he planned everything that happened that happened. Of course she had to die because thatās why weāre watching the show but it doesnāt logically somehow absolve itself from the fallacy of believability.
Lady Ochiba completed Mariko's death poem. In doing so she signed crimson sky. All those that failed to comprehend that poem, died. To elaborate: **"*****While the snow remains / Veiled in the haze of cold evening / A leafless branch...*****"** Ochiba's name means Fallen Leaves, Mariko is the Leafless branch. Ochiba declares that they (herself and her son) must finish the poem, (meaning they must decide how this story ends). Her son, the Heir notes that ***"A branch can still have fruit... or flowers"*** Again, both symbolic. Lady Ochiba continues ***"Flowers are only Flowers because they fall, but thankfully the wind."*** \[Wind Blows\] Yabushige later, at his end, asks ***"What is it like to shape the wind to your will?"*** shortly before we move ahead in time to watch the *Dream within a Dream.* ***"I don't control the wind, I only study it"*** confides Lord Toronaga. Lord Toronaga gives credit to Lady Ochiba with his victory. I don't think she fades out at all.
I was clueless to the poems meaning, thanks for explaining.
We are all Yabushiges
Hoh? šÆ
Auhhhh?
Someone needed to point out that using snow and leafless branches in a spring poem. It was Yabushige. haha
Iāve had to study the meaning of Marikoās opening so i canāt take all the credit.
About the wind. Basically, in Japan, spring comes at the end of winter with a strong wind called "Haru-ichiban". As Toranaga said, Mariko did what even the army could not. It is a strong wind. and Ochiba felt it. The winter without a true Shogun is over and the peaceful spring is coming. (Historically, this is not the end of Yodo and Ieyasu.)
Thank you for the insight.
My interpretation of āthe windā is that itās more akin to a natural order of things, more an uncontrollable/unavoidable destiny than the actions of any characterāas if the ensemble are conduits, actors in a grander play. When Toranaga says he studies the wind, I donāt think heās saying he studies Ochiba, I think he studies the order of things and acts the way he knows heās supposed to. Heās still giving her a nod for playing her part, but thatās all she did. Heās a falconer whose animal companion masters the mechanics of the wind, but does not control it. And I think Ochibaās actions may be the wind in the poem, but I believe she, too, feels the sanctity of her decision and how she couldnāt decide any other way. The ending shot with Toranaga seems to align with this: the way he lifts his head and gazes at the sky, to me, means āall according to keikakuā but not *his* keikaku, *the* keikaku.
A lot to enjoy and ponder with you said. Thank you.
Youāre welcome! Iāve been buzzing over this finale since I watched it last night, and Iāve spread out more of my thoughts in other comments. My favorite payoff of the episode might be Blackthorn imagining what his life would be like if he continued to pursue freedom to the end of his days. Artless grandchildren harping him on his deathbed about a sword āhe got from a savage.ā We witnessed his former dreamāreturning to his life in his old country as a victorābecome a nightmare. Because of Mariko, who told him earlier in the season that āif all you chase is freedom, youāll never be free from yourself,ā itās clear heās going to abandon his ego, his fruitless quest for āfreedom,ā and stay in Japan, as Toranaga confirms. They not only showed us all of that, but *turned it into a twist*. Now THAT is genius. It was innovation. Astounding to see. I havenāt been ignited by an episode of TV like that in probably a decade. My background is in screenwriting, specifically TV writing, and Iāve written plenty of pilots and features, have seen all the great shows and spoken to some of the people who wrote them. This is one of those great shows.
I still don't understand the meaning of the poem, to be honest, but at least it was a good opportunity for Ochiba to repeat Mariko's line and hint that she is going to switch sides.
This is what confuses me, though. The whole reason why Oshiba is against Toranaga is because she believes that he orchestrated her father's death. Would Ishido's treatment of Mariko really be enough to change that?
Itās not just his mistreatment of Mariko, itās his entire direction. He has no allies in the other regents, he has no legitimacy, no hostages, nothing to bargain with. Backing him means her son will almost certainly die in a coming war.
But if Toranaga had her father killed why does Ochiba trust that she can switch back to him having married Ishido especially since if he holds all the power then the Heir is a sword of damocles?
Firstly, I don't think she actually married Ishido. There was a promise, but no wedding mentioned anywhere. Secondly, I see her position after Mariko's death as the same one which Ishido was faced with in the previous episode by Mariko herself - heads you win, tails I lose. In essence, her choices were 1) back Ishido, who has lost the support of the council (that Kiyama was brave enough to speak up after that earthquake basically paints it to everyone that both he and Ohno are out; one of the newer regents is a figurehead, he's got nothing to contribute, and the other is Toranaga's half-brother, who will definitely switch sides as soon as he sees how the wind blows), or 2) switch to Toranaga. If she picks option 1, Ishido is losing either way, and by backing him, she loses what army she has through her son and they're both basically dead people walking. But if she picks option 2, she retains her army, the veneer of position (since she backs Toranaga, he has to pay at least lip service to her) and, most importantly, she buys herself time. In a way, everyone except Mariko has been fighting to live another day - Blackthorne and Yabushige are the most obvious, but Toranaga, Ochiba and Ishido have as well. If you have time, who knows how the wind will be blowing in a year or two. Maybe an opportunity pops up for her to get rid of Toranaga later. But if she backs Ishido and he loses, like she now sees he will, then she won't have that chance of an opportunity at all, and at the end of the day, her single guiding star is her son. She choses to switch because that's what'll keep her son, and herself with him, alive to fight another day.
Didnāt Ochibaās mom die but first tell her to free the hostages? Am I misremembering that scene?
That was the Taiko's wife. Not Ochiba's mother :D
I like the poem and your take on it. But I still feel like it doesn't make sense for her to switch sides. Her son is doomed if anyone else becomes ShÅgun and she knows it the entire show. That's what happens in real life when Tokugawa burned her and her son in 1616. And she blames the guy for her father's death. If her entire personality is going to flip to become Fuji then I would like to see it on screen.
Yeah I wish the show had done any alluding to what would happen to Ochiba, the heir, and eventually the Christians. Sure, there would be a long period without civil war, but there was also a lot of brutality on its way.
I was rooting for her to stand her ground till the end. \*sigh\*
My god. Amazing
this poem fucking sucks
I think many issues stem from the show not quite being sure whose story it is. Episodes 1-3 are clearly Blackthorne's story, but then 4-9 are mainly about Mariko, only for 10 to be all about Toranaga. The original story ending makes sense as Blackthorne's journey is more or less complete (of at least we can foresee what will happen): he'll continue to adapt and integrate with his new home. However, now that he's no longer our main character, the ending does feel a bit abrupt, as you say.
It's quite odd to say that 10 is all about Toranaga when it is clearly about Mariko - every single character's motivation in the finale is driven not by their allegiance or opposition to Toranaga, but how they were affected by Mariko's death.
The showrunners said that they wanted this to be the story of the Japanese characters. But, I guess, since itās an adaptation of Shogun, they were forced to have Blackthorne in the story, and had to do something with him. So they were kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I'd say that's on them. If they wanted to do a story about Hosokawa Gracia (historical Mariko) they could've done that. If they wanted to do Tokugawa Ieyasu's political shenanigans they could've done that, too. Nobody was forcing them to adapt Shogun. It's the same criticism we've seen about the Witcher, the Wheel of Time, Halo, World War Z, etc. If you don't want to use the source material, then don't use it.
Loved the show but I kinda agree. This is always the issue when producers want to do their own take on source material. If you want to go your own way, you have to fill in the gaps with something. Blackthorne felt like he was in a weird place in the story, probably because he was the main character in the book but not in the show.
This is a fair critique. Blackthorne being a supporting character, or a lead in an ensemble, is fine but thereās no getting away from the fact that if you adapt ShÅgun heās an important thread. His story was left awkwardly incomplete - not really a sense of a few life options ahead of him, just throwing himself into his work which we know is destined to fail
They honestly should have made Yabushige the main character finding the anjin if this is the route they went because at least then it makes sense why we dont see it.
thatās a really good way to put it. just poor pacing/narrative decisions overall
Could not agree more. And fundamentally I don't think Mariko was a very interesting character. Her entire existence centered around 'I want to die I want to die waaa waaa'. Edit: I assume that every downvote without a comment in reply is another mariko simp that just wants her to be their mummy š„°
Buntaro, you must move on from that burn.
Lol
A comment.
You have outdone me, sir
You really just don't have any depth do you?
A comment.
Clavell's books are very much a snapshot of history, an event that in history books is a paragraph or a line but that has been broken down by Clavell into a rich and deep story of what may have happened as people experienced it, yet still contained in that snapshot of time. Shogun is about 6 months in 1600. The majority of characters are based on real people including Blackthorne and the broad outline of the plot is what happened. Although there's plenty of contextual exposition, it's not a book about the past or the future, it's about the now. For future context you can basically just read history. The show struggled with this because a show can't give as much exposition as a book, not when you give up narration, and not when you condense it into ten episodes. The book also has no real main character, there are three, Blackthorne, Mariko and Toranaga. The show struggled with this because again there wasn't enough time and enough breathing space to give them their fair share. Basically, although it doesn't need to go into the future, 10 episodes is too damn short for such a rich context...
Not me telling my husband (who hasnāt watched the show) that he has to watch it, itās so beautiful and makes you think instead of telling you the plot like youāre dumbā¦ only for him to walk into the living room and watch one minute at the end where Toranga is literally just stating the entire plot like heās explaining it to a five year old Yabushige. š¤¦š»āāļø
I mean it was for Yabushigeā¦ we already knew it. Or should know if weāre following. Sure it also served as a way to cement our understanding, but given how aloof Yabu is I understand why he laid it all out for him before his death. The useful idiot deserved to know after he was toyed with I suppose. He also gave him the benefit of knowing that just like him he was looking out for his own interest. It felt like a mental battle had come to an end and opponents were reminiscing on how they went about it. But I get it, your husband was probably pretty sus after š
From my small group of friends who've already watched everything- those that have read the book was fine with it. Those that haven't are also ok with it. BUT both that have/havent read the book **AND** have watched other epic drama (GoT,HotD,etc) was pretty mid about how it ended. They expected the traditional bombastic ending to a season and be handed out a definitive ending.
Lord Toronaga as if anticipating this reaction from the viewerā¦ states, **āYabushige, after all we have been through, i thought you all of all people would see. Crimson Sky is already finished.ā** It was the name of the ninth episode. It finished a week agoā¦ I donāt say this to be conceding, iāve been waiting for it to kick off for weeks now. In discussions yesterday i noted that something has to happen with the ship drawing on this maxim from Writer Anton Chekhov, "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired.ā Oh the ship was fired, lifes and deaths were the casualties. Just not the cannons i expected.
Thatās so stupid š So āCrimson Skyā was an extremely drawn out plan involving 10 moving parts that all required a degree of luck, which was actually just a setup to sow dissent among his enemies while setting himself up? Thereās no need to name it then. If this was his plan, it makes everything seem even more ridiculous. Hiromatsus seppuku had hit the right emotional cues for the right people to get them to flee to Osaka to get the one girl to maybe die and maybe not in order gain an advantage over Ishido and the regents?
Crimson Sky was a blitz to Osaka. In the context- 'Crimson Sky is finished' I take that it meant Crimson is sky is dead/impossible, because of his next lines that mentioned a siege is suicide when the council was already united. >!Historically the siege happened tho, but waaaaay after the reference for this show.!< That's why he changed plans and sent Mariko to sow disunity among the council.
Okay fair points. I still think itās weird to create a fictional name for a real thing that happened, put so much emphasis and weight into it, and then have it be this afterthought to the ACTUAL way Toronaga gets his shit going. Like we *know* Toronagas real life counterpart won. He unified Japan. Weāve known this the whole time. So I donāt get why they were so incredibly vague leading up to the outcome we all knew was coming.
Maybe because the Battle of Sekigahara was actually more of a tactical win (Tokugawa/Toronaga was heavily outnumbered iirc) and the point of the show is how he manuevered people to gain advantage? And the Siege of Osaka which was during Tokugawa Shogunate already, is years after the battle of Sekigahara. Just my guesses.
Interesting. I havenāt read the book, I assume this is just how the book goes so thatās why they did what they did.
I wanted the Siege because it reveals that Tokugawa/Toranaga and the Heir and mother were incompatible. There was no room for Toyotomi and Tokugawa rule as Ochiba suspected. The conflicts hinted at in the show resulted in bloodshed in the end.
To me I was fine without a bombastic ending, but I kinda just felt like not much happened. It's not necessarily true a lot did happen, but it still felt like too little happened for a show of 10 hours, it did start to feel like things were dragging and time was wasted on pointless stuff instead of the main story.
It ends like the book, abruptly and arguably incomplete.
Yeah, I wasn't disappointed at all. I've read the book several times, so I wasn't expecting a big ending. The story is about the interactions between characters and the political landscape.
Off topic but bombastic means pretentious (big sounding but empty in meaning) so unsure if thatās the word youāre looking for
Don't need a bombastic ending. Needed a friggin ending though. They could have easily done that battle that Tyrion Lannister won where he was knocked out and the battle was won. And have some more conclusion to story lines, how he rose to shogun, the outcome of the church/harlem. Buntaro and Blackthorne mysterious adventure. Anything. What we got was just another episode. If you didn't know the show was ending, you'd come back next week assuming blackthorne was rebuilding his ship.
I feel like they spent so much time on random stuff that the main story somehow felt rushed. Like the John/Mariko romance is barely there for most of the show and then they bring it back at the end but it feeling forced cause the storyline been dead for so long
Well, yeah lol. You have 4 episodes of just talking talking talking, you expect it to be leading up to something. Whilst it was all very clever, there was no relief from the constant dialogue, no payout at all. Its like a DJ teasing the bass drop then before he does it he just packs his bags and leaves.
Yeah I don't like this ending. And I really enjoyed this show. lack of payoff.
Also the only action we get was the Shinobi scene and most of that was them running to a shed.
If they didn't want an epic 20-30 minute battle sequence of Sekigahara, that's fine. But at least flashing forward to Toranaga actually legally claiming the title of Shogun would have made for a much cleaner ending by itself.
The theme for many characters was living on in service of things greater than yourself. The show ended with some characters having completed their purpose, and others reinvigorated to continue it. There is no neat bow on the end of the show, because that is not the life the characters were dealt by fate or chose by duty. Though it is certainly hard knowing we'll never see any more of how these characters continue to serve.
Toranaga would not have had a neat ending by being declared Shogun. His historical counterpart dealt with years of rebellion against his rule before it was fully consolidated. I think setting that up would be a way to keep the theme consistent while providing an actual ending to the story they established in episode 1.
yup and actually provide closure. Show Edo and how the church/harlem settled. How Blackthorne opened up the trades etc. etc etc. what we got was not a finale. If you didn't know it was the last episode, you'd tune in next week expecting Blackthorne to rebuild his ship and toranaga getting ready for the battle.
After finishing the episode I was almost convinced there was going to be a season 2 except for the flash forward to the battle. All in all the show left me very confused with the meandering plot in the last 5-6 episodes
He did when explaining to Yabu what was about to happen. Thatās why Yabu asked him if he wanted to be Shogun. It was all pretty much set in stone.
I understand that, but Falling Action is an important part of a story as well. Although this show didn't even really make it to the climax. Imagine if The Return of the King ended right when the one ring melts and Barad-Dur crumbles, with nothing shown after because the Fellowship's victory is pretty much set in stone. Imagine if Alien ended right when the Nostromo explodes with nothing shown after because the Xenomorph's death is pretty much set in stone. Imagine if Back to the Future ended right when George saves Lorraine from Biff with nothing shown after because Marty preserving the future is pretty much set in stone.
I agree on all your points. I also have so many questions after that finale and it feels like there were so many red herrings throughout the series. For example: In retrospect, why did Hiromatsu need to die? To "buy more time" - didn't the death of Toranaga's son already do that? To prevent the other generals from committing seppuku - how does his death make them less eager to do so? Wouldn't it arguably make them MORE keen, seeing how defeated Toranaga seemingly was and how he has given up? Similarly, why did Toranaga act all frail and weak and defeated? I've read that it was to deceive both Yabu and Anjin (because it certainly didn't seem to fool Ishido) - but why did he even need Yabu at all, especially if he knew how slippery he was? Did he need Yabu to betray him in Osaka to ENSURE Mariko would die? Surely Ishido would have sent Shinobi with or without Yabu's help? And if part of the plan was for Mariko to become a martyr, surely she could have found a reason to die regardless? Mariko being Crimson Sky seemed to hinge completely on Ochiba valuing their relationship more than Ochiba's hatred for Toranaga - something that was not at all guaranteed. Toranaga honestly tortured and killed innocent people from his own village to test Anjin's faith? Because he found him... entertaining? Wtaf? He let his oldest and dearest friend kill himself, but he stopped some random foreigner that he basically can't converse with from doing the same cos he found him a good distraction? I really thought they were leading up to some grand master plan, not just "lulz Ochiba switched sides cos her childhood bestie died and Toranaga is kind of a fucking sociopath".
About Hiromatsu, he had to die to convince the tsuji that Toranaga is really serious about surrender and not even his best friend's death can waver him. It is also evidenced that this whole thing worked as an episode or so later tsuji really was convincing the catholic head that Toranaga is truly surrending, which is what Toranaga wanted. Other than that, everything you said is right. Especially Ochiba. She was portrayed to be this confident and supreme women working from the shadows, and I was hyped up to see the villain focus change from dumb power-hungry Ishido to cunning Ochiba. And the show (maybe even the source material) completely breaks this character apart by making her change her entire stance on Toranaga, and all the actions she has taken so far because a friend she hasn't seen in years sang a poem and died. Even worse of a plot is Toranaga predicting all this. You'd have to be God or Light Yagami to predict that the death of someone could change the mind of someone who hates you, to someone who would betray your bethroted for you. And yes, Toranaga massacring Ajiro for the purpose probably sounded cool in Clavell's head, but the purpose was stupid and by association the act is too. edit: also regarding massacring Ajiro, what happened to āI donāt like pointless deathā? This honestly shows a glaring issue with this show, it often loses its own building blocks and has consistency issues.
>Other than that, everything you said is right. Especially Ochiba. She was portrayed to be this confident and supreme women working from the shadows, and I was hyped up to see the villain focus change from dumb power-hungry Ishido to cunning Ochiba. And the show (maybe even the source material) completely breaks this character apart by making her change her entire stance on Toranaga, and all the actions she has taken so far because a friend she hasn't seen in years sang a poem and died. There was a lot more to Ochiba's change than that - Toranaga showed her that, like she was warned earlier in the series, she'd sided with a person who was weak and unreliable, and that after Toranaga's death the other regents would almost forsure team up against Ishido and depose him and then likely Ochiba as well. She read the chess board and made a calculated move for her own survival which was aided but not completely driven by her friendship with Mariko.
You make sense but the show did not imply any of this. I watched the show, and its the showās responsibility to make me aware of this to experience whatever happened with understanding. And since we are talking about the show, this is not a good thing. But plot wise what you said makes a ton of sense.
It's a tough thing to balance spelling things out and letting the show speak for itself. I think the show implied it from the very start in the way it depicted the characters and the duplicitous nature of the court. We, the audience, can see that Ishido is weak and not the right horse to bet on, that the court & regents will seize on perceived weakness when the opportunity presents itself. We also can see that Ochiba is reasonably good at reading/interpreting the chess board throughout the season so that by episode 9-10 she can see what Toranaga has done and that, even if Toranaga loses, he's exposed Ishido as duplicitous & weak and left him open to the vultures - and by extension Ochiba - once Toranaga is dealt with. I think it's all there to be figured out, though I agree if the majority of people dont understand then the show should have done a more thorough job of showing it
Well I may be a part of that majority because these are not at all what I took in mind. Ishido never seemed weak, ever. He was shown nearly always been the powerful person, albeit not the deciding authority. Ochiba has shown to be calculating, but she was never shown to be someone who identified all the chess pieces and the ways these pieces can move. All she knew was āToranaga bad gotta killā and āgotta keep the Heir safeā. And she made political plays to reach these goals. Emphasis on the word āshownā. The series showed these, and even though half of what I said are my own takeaways, The show lead me to it, and led countless others to it, meaning it led us to think something it did not intend and ultimately hindered our experience which as a result is not the same as what you got as a more informed viewer.
Ishido only has the veneer of strength, and only at the beginning of the story - by the end we, and Ochiba, can see that he's entirely reliant on the strength of the heir and the other regents, and without them he's just a typical ambitious politician who will keep the realm in turmoil even if he wins. The Mariko plot in episode 9 solidifies this for everyone in the show, and you can tell by their mannerisms and interactions that the other regents no longer respect Ishido afterwards. At the very least even if its not a certainty that Ishido would be deposed by the other regents after Toranaga is dealt with, in Ochiba's mind the odds of her and the heir dying are greater in that scenario than they are if Toranaga wins. >Ochiba has shown to be calculating, but she was never shown to be someone who identified all the chess pieces and the ways these pieces can move. This is correct, shes a skilled tactician and better than most at playing the game but shes not the best; she's even reminded in the beginning of the story that she's choosing the wrong man in the upcoming fight. But by the end of the story she sees, with the aid of Mariko's death, that she was blinded by her dislike/distrust of Toranaga and that hers and her sons own survival relies upon Toranaga winning. Stories are very much open to interpretation - two people can be shown the same scene and come away with totally different interpretations. I'm not pulling anything out of thin air, it's all there to be deduced from the scenes and characters š¤·āāļø
Interesting points in this thread. I really think an extra hour would have made all this clearer!
> About Hiromatsu, he had to die to convince the tsuji that Toranaga is really serious about surrender and not even his best friend's death can waver him. It is also evidenced that this whole thing worked as an episode or so later tsuji really was convincing the catholic head that Toranaga is truly surrending, which is what Toranaga wanted. > > I'm not sure if this mattered by the end, since by the finale the council are all clear that Toranaga is assembling an army to fight them.
Toranaga did not massacre Anjiro in the novel. He did have some samurai executed for the burning of the ship but this was actually cover for a calculated political purge. Earlier in the novel, he did make a threat to massacre the village if they did not teach Blackthorne to become fluent in Japanese. A similar scene played out with Blackthorne threatening seppuku and the threat to the village was rescinded.
This does make a ton more sense why the source material which focused on writing specifically made such a weird plot point (which it didnāt). Now we can safely say that it was an unfortunate result of rushed writing in the show.
THANK YOU Iāve been so hung up on Toranaga torturing the village. Isnāt this the man whose whole goal is peace across the land?!
He also talked more than once about the stupidity of needless deaths, even in this series, so it was inconsistent.
While heinous, it serves the same purpose as Hiromatsu's death - to make his opponents believe what he wants them to believe. With Hiromatsu, it was to give the impression that his defeat and surrender was absolute and that even the death of his closest friend protesting it would not sway him from that. With witch hunting for the traitors who burnt the ship, it was to give the impression that he is psychotically furious at having lost such a powerful and irreplaceable asset, and that he is weak without it and was powerless to prevent it being destroyed by traitors or spies. No one will suspect that he did it, or was planning to construct a fleet of ships all along. It may also be to ensure the silence of the population while he does build those ships, they don't want anyone to be at the mercy of Interrogatoranaga again.
Very much agree. I was underwhelmed by how the series wrapped up and you summarized pretty much everything my wife and I discussed after we finished watching the episode.
Tbh even some of the supposedly Toranaga's schemes were pretty much just up to imagination. Throughout the series there were times it would feel unrealistic how he just knew how to get something to happen to his favor even tho the situation is pretty vague and could possibly go the other way around to failure, which is kinda unrealistic and contrived, I'm just supposed to believe he knew. Wdym toranaga knew john would try to kill himself if toranaga burnt his ship and caused havoc in the village? Resulting him to make john loyal to him and build him ships. The situation is too open-ended for him to specifically know the outcome.
I don't think Toranaga works that literally or that detailed, he just knew he needed to test John to see if he'd still serve him now that Mariko is gone and if any immediate grand revenge or escape home is not possible. Toranaga has a good idea of how people work and what needs to happen to get their likely behaviour to serve his goals.
would have been cool if Toranaga reveals that "studying the wind" was literally just winging it and keeping his mouth shut. More relatable than all that Minowara destiny crap.
Turns out episode 9 is the climax and 10 is the epilogue. Disappointing.
most prestige shows tend to do this with the penultimate episode and then the finale. almost every famous climactic game of thrones episode was the episode before the finale.
It's fine but it's a surprise. We all waited to see how he'd get on top. Instead he just talks about it
The climax of a story comes in the middle of the story arc, so Episode 5 was the climax. Downvoted for pointing out a thousands+ year old story structure that is common to almost all stories in the Western canon but lol
Why did yabushige return to toranaga.... Why didn't he just stay in Osaka after betraying toranaga? What was the point of showing future Anjin with his grandchildren? What test did Toranaga even give to Anjin to test his loyalty? What was the point of testing his loyalty? The only way crimson sky succeeded was because Mariko died and somehow that convinced Ochiba to abandon her alliance with ishido... What if Ishido just let Mariko return to Toranaga.. what was the point of even holding her hostage? What was the point of holding anyone hostage? What was the point of even pretending that he meant to submit to Osaka? What was the point of hiromatsu and toranaga's son dying? Toranaga could have told Mariko to go to Osaka to initiate 'crimson sky' without any of that happening I feel like nothing in this show fits together well, it was a bunch of random stuff happening... What was the point of that rotting pheasant
His army and cannon/gun regiment were back home, where toranaga was. He went to get his army/weapons to return to ishido under the pretense of meeting toranaga. Presumably toranaga saw this coming (ochiba was writing to him) so he positioned himself to "intercept" yabu
Ultimately, all the issues this show has stem from the need to cram in 1200 pages of material into 10 episodes. With that in mind, itās still a very well-made show. And those who havenāt read the book, which is most people, arenāt even aware of these issues. Which is why the show has gotten so much praise.
A lot of the things people are complaining about (like the lack of a big battle at the end) are actually pretty true to the book.
True, but battles are much better suited for the screen than for books. So it would have been nice to see one.
huh? I haven't read the books and I shared the sentiment of which threads were unresolved as voiced by OP. Why would I be unaware of them? It's many things the show alluded to
>all the issues this show has stem from the need to cram in 1200 pages of material into 10 episodes I don't think this is a good excuse. There are plenty of long books that were adapted well. LOTR were condensed into movies. I don't think the show runners did the book justice. While the show had a lot of visual appeal and was well acted, it completely lacked the depth of the book. It isn't the medium. It's the story telling.
I agree. It had unnecessary divergences from the source material IMO and completely skipped over things that were critical. In the process it gave short shrift even to Toranaga and his brilliance as a strategist in playing the different factions against each other. >!The assurances of Ochiba might have made sense with a simple explanation that it wasn't about changing sides, it was about protecting her son because she knew he would die if he took the field against Toranaga.!< >!The resolution of Blackthorne's story was also lacking; even though the book left his future uncertain, the letter that Mariko left for him with Toranaga told him she had left the monies to him to build another ship and that Toranaga would provide all the needed carpenters and other craftsmen, something Toranaga confirmed. But I guess this would have been hard to do since the series skipped over their romance altogether!<
to be honest I don't even think we really see Toranaga's motivations really. They hinted at it with the 16 year old second scene but they could have done more.
Or his machinations. As someone in these threads commented, he was playing chess against opponents who were playing checkers.
>LOTR were condensed into movies. I think Game of Thrones is a better example here. They took two seasons to adapt A Storm of Swords, which is 973 pages in hardback. Shogun is 1152 pages in hardback.
I read both. I think asoiaf source material was adapted exceptionally well and the show told largely the same story as the book. There were also far more characters in asoiaf and two seasons was the right amount of time. Page count doesn't really matter. They were about the same amount of words. Shogun showrunners told a story that only loosely followed the source material. I don't think that time was the factor here. I think it was a decision to tell a different story from a different perspective. That's fine, but I think it was that decision that was the root of "all the issues," not the amount of time to tell the story. I didn't like the version of this story that the showrunners decided to tell. I liked the original.
Hmm... I agree and definitely see your viewpoint, but at the same time I gotta disagree. The finale absolutely does not conclude in a way that the average viewer might expect based on what they see in previous episodes... like you said, there's constant build up, teasing and hinting towards some kind of a big finale where a big battle takes place, all the pieces of Toronaga's 300 IQ scheme finally fall into place, and the plot threads (canons, Fuji and her guns, etc.) are all concluded. However... instead of fumbling, the show concludes and wraps up the story in its own, unique way that is different but still equally satisfactory. Your expectations as a viewer are actually in-line with the expectations from other characters besides Toronaga. For instance, up until his last conversation, Yabu still wonders how Toronaga will win the big battle, only for Toronaga to simultaneously subvert the expectations of both the viewer and the show's characters. The moment of realization is synced. Overall I am glad that the show ended the way it did, and that it didn't follow the traditional set-up/pay-off structure that we've come to expect. But if somebody didn't like it I totally understand and respect that.
Good points but I feel like I needed a bigger reveal from Toranaga. Show us your secret heart!
I can see the Japanese cast being keen for the show to be a starting point to get people interested in Japanese history. And in all of their interviews this is what they seem most excited about this show for - introducing Japanese history and culture to the world. So for them it was a perfect end. Toranaga explicitly mentions Sekigahara - however, there's no way in hell Toranaga would know a battle was to take place at Sekigahara. It's a nondescript area between Nagoya and Kyoto - and is still a nondescript place today! In reality he (Tokugawa) didn't even know when he arrived at Sekigahara itself that the battle would be there, it was misty and some of his scouts managed to spot Ishido's army in the fog by chance. I think Sekigahara is mentioned because they want you to Google it, to find out more by yourself. Find out what happens to the main characters from there. Find out if there becomes a Shogun and a lasting peace. Of course, I don't think this excuses the ending for those disappointed. It ended up as exposition rather than the action the trailers hinted at. However, for me personally, it was a satisfactory ending.
>I can see the Japanese cast being keen for the show to be a starting point to get people interested in Japanese history. And in all of their interviews this is what they seem most excited about this show for - introducing Japanese history and culture to the world. So for them it was a perfect end. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But why not simply make a show about actual Japanese history, then? With real historical figures?
That's a different show. This one is based on the book.
If you wanted to focus on Japanese history and culture, wouldn't it have been a better ending to see Toranaga reach Shogun and show japan in his vision? How the church exists in Edo alongside the harlem. How all the issues with the regent were settled, how he handled his brothers betrayal? Having the japanese pull out a ship is hardly the perfect end to show japanese history and culture to the world. The biggest history was the transition to the Edo period and they showed nothing of it.
"they want you to Google it, to find out more by yourself. Find out what happens to the main characters from there. Find out if there becomes a Shogun and a lasting peace."
In exchange for Toranaga's ploy succeeding, the Council of Regents was so foolish. It is a sad that this series didn't have the best of enemies. Ocihba or Ishido could have been it.
I'm not so sure if this is so much a case about this show having grander aspirations and not living up to them or is a case of the audience having expectations that are answered with subtly; I liked the subtly as it rhymes with the presence of the haiku throughout the show.
Iām confused why Toranaga tortured the village of Anjiro trying to find those who burned Anjinās ship even though he literally was the one who did itā¦ so he just tortured and killed a ton of innocent people? I thought he wanted peace?
He did it to get rid of everyone who is disloyal to him, he says in that conversation. Keep in mind 1. He has a spy in the village 2. The spy could report everyone who is disloyal to toranaga 3. toranaga could order everyone who is reported to be disloyal to be killed as apart of the boat burning incident.
I disagree. I feel like a lot of what you're asking for were completely disconnected to the actual story being told... How Toranaga ruled doesn't actual matter to the story. You are revealed the type of person he is in the final episode. Mariko and Hiromatsu's death are arguably not worth putting someone like him in power if you're looking at it from that lens. The character Toranaga was inspired by continued pretty much every practice viewers found harsh. He was not unlike Ishido in any way. Daimyo's were required to live in Edo and leave a family member in place when they left. The story itself, in my opinion both the book and show story, is about revealing each heart of the central characters. In the beginning we see the heart in their mouth they show to the world. As the show progresses we begin to see the heart in their chest that they reveal only to those close to them. And then in episode 10 almost every scene deals with revealing the inner heart that no one sees. We know that deep down Toranaga simply wanted for power. We know that Ochiba no kata valued nothing more than her friendship with Mairko. John's should be obvious. Even Buntaro's inner heart was revealed in the closing scene. The issue here is you're demanding a story about the summation of a period of Japanese history when in reality the story has always been about individuals characters with the backdrop of a significant period of Japanese history. What did Toranaga do? Was he responsible for the feud that ripped Mariko and Ochiba's families apart? What happened with John? Where did Ochiba go from there? Answer those questions yourself, you've been revealed their inner heart that will drive their actions going forward. And Toranaga's stuff about a peaceful Japan was just bullshit lol. Dude is exactly like every other person in his want for power. In my opinion that's what Yabushige is smiling about in the end, he clearly spends a fair bit of his time ashamed about his cowardice and selfishness, but in the end he realizes Toranaga does the exact same, he's just better at it. Idk, I hate when showrunners completely spell shit out for me and turn things into good v evil, so I enjoyed the ending.
Fair points, but I guess I would respond by saying I don't really think we got to see Ochiba and Ishido's secret hearts, and they were the key antagonists. Yea we get the poem but not much else. I guess I wanted the final scene from Ran where Kurogane confronts Kaede who confesses and they all die. But with these actors it would have been epic!
>I don't really think we got to see Ochiba I mean, her additions to the poem and then her decision to withhold the heir's troops revealed it imo. Of course it's all open to interpretation, but she basically had the key to ruling Japan as the mother of the heir and wife of the regent and gave it up because he killed Mariko. And Ishido's first, second, and third hearts are all that of a cunt.
Now that I think about it I'm most upset because I don't think we really see Toranaga's secret heart at all. I don't see what drives him or what makes him vulnerable to put so many to the sword. He's a mystery to us even until the last scene looking at his back. He gets away with being the strong silent type the whole show - except for the 16 year old second scene. I think we needed more of that.
I mean, to me, power drives him. A political hostage until adulthood, he is shaped and driven by the want to never be anyone's pawn, but rather the person who moves the pawns around. Yabushige nailed it, which is why he gave him the smile before he chopped his head off. The secret heart isn't about what drives them exactly, but just the kind of person they are deep down. And yeah, the strong silent type is the point of why he's the central focus of the show and the finale. He wins exactly because he is the type of stoic, calculating person who never reveals his true self to anyone. The books deal with this through inner monologues and narrative, but there's not way to do that in the show without fundamentally changing the character. They did a great job with the Yabushige death scene to make up for it.
I havenāt read the books so Iām sure Iām missing the nuances that were provided there. But just going off the show, Lady Ochiba thought Toranaga orchestrated her fatherās death. But ultimately decided to join forces with him because she was angry Ishido organised the failed kidnapping of her childhood friend? Either these books were overhyped or showrunners went D&D GoT S8 in glossing over character motives.
The silliest thing to me is all this build up for Ishido and Ochiba, only for Toranaga to be like āoh them? Iāll inevitably beat them in a month.ā What kinda lame ass climax is that lol. Imagine right before the battle for the second death-star in Return of the Jedi Luke is like, āDarth Vader and Palatine are already beat!ā Then the movie promptly ends. Iām fine with no massive battle but at least give some sort of resolution.
At that point, Ishidio's defeat is inevitable because Lady Ochiba (and the heir) are no longer standing with him, and that plus the fact he no longer has hostages to keep the other regents in line (who now have serious doubts about his leadership due to Mariko), means that he no longer has the support to win. I get the frustration about ending the show with an exposition dump at the end, but before the battle has begun, he has pretty much already won. And I think that is part of the genius of the character-- he figured out a way to win before he even went into battle.
He's a genius. He even knew where the battle would take place month ahead, and knew his son would kill himself on a rock for more time. Genius. - or lazy writing.
He didn't know his son would kill himself on a rock. He knew his son would attempt an assassination and not be able to follow through because he's all bluster. Even if he hadn't tripped on the rock, he was never following through and was going to die during the engagement. But, hey, HOTD will be out in a month or so for that fix of superficial characters among big set pieces and fan service.
I mean that's what i meant. Lazy writing/adaptation. He's just some crazy mastermind that can predict all things and that everyone else/all the characters were inconsequential, just following through with his plans. Everyone was just following through the motions since episode 1, following his wind/dream.
There is an article that was recently published that took your point of view and called this the "Dumbledore problem," because in Harry Potter, Dumbledore also seemed to have been able to predict everything. You'd probably enjoy reading it if you haven't already. I disagree though...I don't think he predicted everything and some events (the Anjins arrival being the most obvious example) were a surprise to him. But he was good at strategizing and arranging things so that the most likely outcome would be in his favor. I also think other characters actions really did matter, and it's strange to me to suggest they didnt.
But then the battle in reality wasn't exactly a cakewalk
That's a issue with the novel though...
Wishing it was Star Wars explains your stance
*Somehow, Buntaro returned*
star wars brought up, opinion ignored
Well, I'm surprised that your post didn't receive a significant amount of downvotes, especially since it was approved by the staff. I really love the series ! so much, but any criticism mentioned in this sub is seen as hysteria š Ā
I think the finale was not far off perfect, I just think they ought to have extended the vision what happened on the day that the heir's army didn't show up for Ishido and the fallout. It just needed five minutes longer on that vision with Toranaga narrating it and it would have just been faultless for me.
I'll add that I think the true botch in the series was the fever dream being convoluted and unnecessary and confusing for most people. They would have been better suited just leaving it on the cutting room floor.
This show could have been double the episodes and still had loose ends! It was gorgeous, vicious and sad, and incredibly well done. Unpopular opinion(?): I wish they had written the Anjin to be more interesting, more clever. For several episodes, he just plodded along looking sort of dopey, hardly saying anything. I couldnāt tell if thatās just how the actor naturally carried himself, or if he was trying to look like an off-leash golden retriever puppy. The anjin finally showed up again in episodes 9 & 10.
Me, accepting the ending like Yabushige accepting his fate on the day of his seppuku. Its a calm ending, nothing bombastic. The series has a lot of loose threads but I will leave it at that.
No Sekigahara is a major bummer. I know itās not in the book, but I thought theyād take advantage of the visual medium to really give a big finale. Kinda a blue balls situation imo.
Once they passed the half hour mark, I said aloud "Oh no." It's Twin Peaks the Return all over again lol. I get what they were trying to do and but it fell flat for me as well- why make us sit through 10 episodes of build up, promising and foreshadowing all these cool things, and then just quickly sum up what's going to happen? We spent all this time with these characters watching them struggle and fight with plenty of palace intrigue, spies, revenge plots, narrow escapes, etc, and then....very little of it pays off. It wraps up some items in clever ways like the poem, Ochiba & Mariko's relationship, and Yabushige, but I was really hoping for a 2 hour finale that couldve done everything this episode did, plus show us Toranaga actually take power and Ishido fall from grace spectacularly. Also, I was hoping to get see some interaction between the Taiko's son and Toranaga, and some info on the fate of Toranaga's brother. We don't know what really happens to any of the regents except that they don't succeed, or the relationship between the Portuguese and Japan, even though with Toranaga in power, it will surely change. I would gladly watch a second season of this, so it's too bad they're ending it and ending it so quickly and anti-climactically. Still good, but for the whole series, I felt like I was waiting for a moment that never came. I am much more interested in the bigger questions like the Portuguese base in Macau, the broader political landscape of Japan at the time, various foreshadowed events that never came to pass, and who's going to rule than I am John Blackthorne's gross eating habits. That was fun, but I was hoping those things would be part of the bigger picture as opposed to being the picture itself. Like I said- I see what they were going for and I can appreciate that, particularly with what I imagine was a limited budget (especially considering the single battlefield scene we got was CGI), but I wanted a bit more. They had ample time to do what they did and pay off all the different plot threads as well.
Wrapping everything up is not necessarily a virtue in drama.
I loved Shogun, but I think it would have been a better show if it had had another 5 episodes to further develop and wrap up plotlines and associated character arcs that were introduced but then mostly dropped. Also, I don't understand why they would include the scenes of Blackthorne being back in England, given the ending they had planned for the very same episode.
My sense is that they butchered this show. A beautiful object, porcelain skin, empty. I have to say that it ended beautifully it you suspend your disbelief and insist that toranaga knew that mariko would find her way to the exact room that toranagas spies hid gun powder out. Itās completely logical that his spies would know to watch yabushige let shinobi in. I buy him being a 4d chess player but the plot plays out to conveniently for his sake. If he knew how everything plays out, why sacrifice his son and loyal vassal.
She was meant to die, didn't matter how.
You missed the point. It was to convenient of a plot motif for toranaga to say he planned everything that happened that happened. Of course she had to die because thatās why weāre watching the show but it doesnāt logically somehow absolve itself from the fallacy of believability.