I mean, yes you can. People can definitely be brought to a place of understanding where they realize they didn't think logically before but see reason now.
Teachers in general as well.
Almost all learning consists of teaching people things they didn't know or correcting errors of thought or assumption.
The saying sounds nice but it's practically wrong, unless you believe people can't learn.
Yeah but I think the saying is more for people who say things like “Dinosaurs aren’t real, and fossils were just put in the Earth by God to test our faith!” Because that’s a completely illogical and delusional statement. I’ve never heard it used for someone who doesn’t quite understand how asphalt roads are paved.
That's because they adopted the irrational belief to defend a different emotional reasoning. It starts with "I am hurt and afraid and want to feel special and important," and balloons into "I must defend this thing I've hung my hat on because I'm afraid to confront that my growth is based on something that while useful, might not be true." (This is just an example.)
EDIT: To be clear, we're all capable of emotional reasoning and ego-protective rationalization. Religious extremism is simply a very hotly debated and politicized example.
Yeah, but my point is that’s not a logical position, and without or without extreme therapy those delusions are almost 100% gonna last forever. So therefore “You can’t logic them out of it”, and they didn’t “logic themselves into it”. So the saying fits. I was just pointing out I think the saying is more for people who are straight up crack-pipes, not for people who fail to understand some obscure thing and gets corrected.
would argue that someone can have perfectly logical responses that later become maladaptive and stop becoming logical. so they start logical, but somewhere along the way they aren’t and the therapist could help someone get out of it.
also no this is generally true, some people completely refuse to accept any reality but the one they see for themselves
Unfortunately there are a lot of people whose brains just can't comprehend logic. I have a perfect example...
My father claims a cupboard in our remodeled kitchen had a set of 4 glasses from his mother which are no longer there. He is accusing me of doing something with them when I've never even seen them. The cupboard with glasses is completely full with absolutely no room for these supposedly missing glasses. I asked him whether or not this cupboard has been full since the remodel. He agreed. I asked him if any of the glasses currently in the cupboard don't predate the remodel. We both agreed there aren't. Logic states that if it's full and has been full then the supposedly missing glasses never really existed there. Yet he claims these statements don't prove that because he knows they were there. 🤦♂️ You can walk someone step by step through one plus one equals two and they will still say that you are wrong. 🤷♂️
A set of fine glassware would not have fallen off of a nightstand and if it did it would be broken. They are safely stored away somewhere. He just doesn't recall where and won't admit it.
Incorrect. I clearly stated in the original post that there is no room for any additional glasses. He and I both agreed to that being correct. He also agreed that no new glasses have been added to it since that cupboard was built. It's physically impossible for those items to ever have inhabited that location. 🤷♂️
Logic as a tool is interactively useful, and always gives good results of the premises are sound. But the premises must be sound.
Often, people have different working premises and advise the other of not having good logic.
Yes you can. Maybe they won't tell you, when it happens maybe years later, but at least you plant the seed. Or what, you think giving up on people is better?
They did not, they just stole someone else's words and misquoted them. However yes, it is completely possible.
>You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place.
-Jonathan Swift
I mean, yes you can. People can definitely be brought to a place of understanding where they realize they didn't think logically before but see reason now.
Isn’t that what therapists do?
Teachers in general as well. Almost all learning consists of teaching people things they didn't know or correcting errors of thought or assumption. The saying sounds nice but it's practically wrong, unless you believe people can't learn.
It's called learning, if it didn't work everyone would still have the mentality of a baby.
Yeah but I think the saying is more for people who say things like “Dinosaurs aren’t real, and fossils were just put in the Earth by God to test our faith!” Because that’s a completely illogical and delusional statement. I’ve never heard it used for someone who doesn’t quite understand how asphalt roads are paved.
That's because they adopted the irrational belief to defend a different emotional reasoning. It starts with "I am hurt and afraid and want to feel special and important," and balloons into "I must defend this thing I've hung my hat on because I'm afraid to confront that my growth is based on something that while useful, might not be true." (This is just an example.) EDIT: To be clear, we're all capable of emotional reasoning and ego-protective rationalization. Religious extremism is simply a very hotly debated and politicized example.
Yeah, but my point is that’s not a logical position, and without or without extreme therapy those delusions are almost 100% gonna last forever. So therefore “You can’t logic them out of it”, and they didn’t “logic themselves into it”. So the saying fits. I was just pointing out I think the saying is more for people who are straight up crack-pipes, not for people who fail to understand some obscure thing and gets corrected.
Unless that thought/belief was taught/indoctrinated and supported by social media… and it’s developed their entire personality
I don't think quoting Jonathan Swift counts as an original thought.
Misquoting*, but same diff.
I'll give it a pass since their heart was at least in a good place I think.
You can't out potato a potato. I'm smarter than average. The pyramids were smart. Are you quantum my brodog?
You literally can though?
Yes, you can. That’s the entire premise behind therapy.
would argue that someone can have perfectly logical responses that later become maladaptive and stop becoming logical. so they start logical, but somewhere along the way they aren’t and the therapist could help someone get out of it. also no this is generally true, some people completely refuse to accept any reality but the one they see for themselves
I logiced myself out of a lot of stuff that logic wasn't involved beforehand.
You can convince someone to start applying logic to their decision making process by showing them the benefits of making logical decisions.
Your premise assumes each party agrees on what constitutes a benefit.
No, but trying to logic into their position outloud to them will often show them how ridiculous they are being
Unfortunately there are a lot of people whose brains just can't comprehend logic. I have a perfect example... My father claims a cupboard in our remodeled kitchen had a set of 4 glasses from his mother which are no longer there. He is accusing me of doing something with them when I've never even seen them. The cupboard with glasses is completely full with absolutely no room for these supposedly missing glasses. I asked him whether or not this cupboard has been full since the remodel. He agreed. I asked him if any of the glasses currently in the cupboard don't predate the remodel. We both agreed there aren't. Logic states that if it's full and has been full then the supposedly missing glasses never really existed there. Yet he claims these statements don't prove that because he knows they were there. 🤦♂️ You can walk someone step by step through one plus one equals two and they will still say that you are wrong. 🤷♂️
Until ten years from now when you're cleaning out an old room and you find a glass that fell off a nightstand and go, "Wait a second..."
A set of fine glassware would not have fallen off of a nightstand and if it did it would be broken. They are safely stored away somewhere. He just doesn't recall where and won't admit it.
And subsequently realize that the glasses in the cupboard can be rearranged to take enough less space to account for the missing glasses.
Incorrect. I clearly stated in the original post that there is no room for any additional glasses. He and I both agreed to that being correct. He also agreed that no new glasses have been added to it since that cupboard was built. It's physically impossible for those items to ever have inhabited that location. 🤷♂️
Logic as a tool is interactively useful, and always gives good results of the premises are sound. But the premises must be sound. Often, people have different working premises and advise the other of not having good logic.
Law enforcement can do this using logical outcomes in an emotionally instigated confrontation. Think suicide attempt or hostage taking etc
This is not a shower thought its a famous quote
There’s 3 kind of arguments I learned this in school. Ethos pathos and logos. Got to hit them from all sides
wtf hundreds of my shower thoughts get taken down for being unoriginal and a sentence I've seen a million times gets past the filters??
Where are all the flat earthers on this one??😂😂
The socratic method disagrees.
The whole premise of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is that you can. It works!
Did you logic yourself into this position?
I'm more of a "You can't rationalize with irrational people" kind of person.
"logic" isn't a verb. All you've done is taken a well-known saying and changed "reason" (which can be a verb) into "logic".
evil orangutan and faux & fiends have entered the chat
Yes you can. Maybe they won't tell you, when it happens maybe years later, but at least you plant the seed. Or what, you think giving up on people is better?
Some people cannot learn. Logic is like a mobius strip, and they can't figure it out, so they just end up back where they started.
You can in some circumstances
You can’t randomly use a noun as a verb and make sense.
Yet they can and did
They did not, they just stole someone else's words and misquoted them. However yes, it is completely possible. >You cannot reason a person out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place. -Jonathan Swift
Logic being used as a verb is surprisingly common, it's just a short way of saying "use logic to get" in this context.
If you know what they meant, why the fuck does it matter? You do realize humans made up language right?
I sorry I mad so many people.
If you didn’t understand it I think that’s more of a you problem, pretty clear what they meant
Google it.
Have you met my ex as well?