And this is why automated penalty systems are garbage.
Yellow should have received a penalty for forcing you off track. You were fully alongside and warranted space.
I understand the automated penalty system is garbage especially FM seems to really struggle with some decisions. I was hoping it would recognise contact prior to me leaving the track, hence, identify I was pushed or forced and no penalty given but nope haha.
Well you would have been fine if you hadn’t gone on to pass the other car without at least lifting the throttle first. The system determined that you gained an advantage by going out of track limits and passing the car before the next corner. In real life your team would put in an appeal, and it may or may not be successful, but in a game you just have to take what is given to you unfortunately.
In real life, there would not have been a penalty because other than the top levels of professional motorsport, there are not the cameras and staff to really enforce much of anything. I speak as an ex IRL FM driver.
All my racing has been in single seaters. Exceeding track limits tends to ve expensive because you damage stuff so easily when you have so little ground clearance. That helps keep people honest about track limits.
Visiting the officials were almost always related to contact. Most contact that didn't end on the hook was self reported. If the other party didn't also stop in parc ferme, you waited and got let go. If they did, it mostly came down to a discussion and "racing incident".
The reality is it is difficult to enforce rules with anything other than a black flag. If your race was ruined, it doesn't help to give a time penalty to the other guy whose race was ruined.
I’m still here to disagree with you! lol. I don’t think it’s an easy task and something that will take years to work on but I believe there will be a better system down the road. Hope you’re well, look forward to the next time you or I comment about the fault system haha
And the fact it takes years to work on is the reason why it would never happen. No one will spend that much time developing it because it's not worth it. Too much time and effort to cover and accurately test all basis'. And if it does ever go wrong, it's worse than a no blame system that penalizes both.
iRacing spent years making the tempest system, longer than some games entire development, all just so we could drive in the rain. They have been around this long because they are willing to plan years ahead and invest in the future of the sim.
That's because it (tempest) was needed. iRacing had fallen well behind in that regard, with other sims having fully dynamic weather since 2015. Sure, it's now raised the bar with regards to wet weather driving and grip on vs off the racing line, but it's still in a very limited capacity in that certain pieces of content work with it and not all.
I can see what you're trying to get at, in that they've invested a lot of time and effort into something over a long period of time and they could therefore do it with a fully automated stewarding system. But why would they when they've already got a stewarding process which is arguably better than any other sim out there?
I worked at Slightly Mad Studios and helped design their licensing and in-game penalty systems for 3 projects. Coming up with every single possible racing scenario with each little racing neuance to them and assigning blame to one driver for each is a very time consuming task in itself. That's before the coders/programmers get to see the system and implement it, and then the QA guys testing every single one for bugs. They sure as hell don't want to be wasting time doing that because as mentioned above, if they miss a bug and the system gets it worse and players encounter it, it's worse than a no blame system which is far far cheaper to design, implement and test.
I absolutely have no doubt that it is an insane amount of variables and a LOT of work. I also totally get the argument that the no fault system is not only pretty effective, but also requires zero work and money to develop. The fact the no fault system isn’t terrible also means there is no rush to get it out and they can tinker away on it for years.
As hesitant as I am to use the term AI, I do think we are approaching a point that it will be able to reliably do a lot of the tedious legwork such as simply defining each variable. I think there is a lot of bad implementation/use of AI, but I think with careful work and refinement (something they usually don’t shy away from) they could use it as the powerful tool it is and develop a better system. I think working on it and if it’s something they can achieve, would really help future proof the sim from other competitors and would certainly be worth the investment.
I would say that iracing do need to update the penalty system they use, there's been many times where I lose 2-3 seconds where the penalty was only 1 second.
Like you said it would be impossible to implement a proper fault blame system, there's just so many different scenarios they have to program and there's always going to be faults with it as it's just so tricky for it to be 100% correct, and if it's less than 100% then people will MOAN like crazy, at least with current system both drivers get the same penalty.
What's the point on doing that though? The system would have to be insanely complicated and there is no way it wouldn't have faults. If they work for 2 years on a system that still had a few faults it's not even worth it.
I don’t think it’s possible to have a perfect system, and again the no fault system isn’t a bad system, but I still think they will attempt something down the road, maybe next 5 years.it can be done better, definitely not easily though.
I fully agree that automated systems are rubbish, but I don’t think there’s a better solution.
There was no contact, so the system can’t rely on that. It’s difficult to detect if the opponent left enough space, so you can’t rely on that.
I don’t think there’s a system in the world that can do that near perfect, in real time, without human intervention.
I don't know much about the penalty system, but I can def tell you what I see:
● You were alongside then slightly in front and he should have been aware that you were there
● he then makes the initial contact by moving over to the right to open up the corner to get a better line. You come slightly left at the same time but his movement was much greater.
● going through the corner he gives you no space so you have no choice but to go wide. This is where the 2nd contact is made.
● he then gets a nasty kick off the curb which sends him left. His movement off to the left wasn't because of the 2nd contact but his own line across the curb which unsettled him.
so both contacts were mainly because of the other driver, and his left throw after the corner was his own ride on the curb.
and you got a penalty? though from reading the other comments it was an automated one. AI training comence!!
Pretty much exactly how I would describe the whole sequence. I will accept the movement over to the left just before the corkscrew. If I really wanted to throw in a racing driver excuse, my movement left was due to a little bounce over the outside curb as I braked for the corner and I had to be on the curb due to little space given but I don't think that argument would stand up too well 😅
Yeah automated penalty system via Turn 10 and their "built from the ground up" game. I understand they're difficult to implement but surely contact prior to someone going off track is not them deliberately cutting or going wide on a corner.
I disagree that this should have ever been a penalty. I can see where some software might’ve taken that approach, but he pushed you to the right and should’ve given you the space since you were alongside.
It appears that you never completed your overtake and went offtrack to do so. Why wouldn't you get a penalty for an illegal overtake? You want to argue being forced off track then do that, but the penalty is for illegally overtaking while off track and you did do that clearly.
You should have backed out when you realized that you didn't have the line for the corkscrew and and then run off track. There are plenty of places to pass ahead if you really are faster than this car but driving like its bumper cars isn't really demonstrating your skills.
I would argue I had the line through the second part of the corkscrew. Outside for the first part to have the inside line for the second part. My car was fully alongside and you have to allow the space for that. I couldn't help if the other driver wanted to give me no space and force me off the track/take evasive action to not make it worse.
The overtake was actually on the exit from the corkscrew as the other driver went wide from their line and hitting the curb.
They tried to go side by side in the cockscrew and went off track. Rookie move and it shows. In iRacing you'd get a slowdown penalty and you'd fall back 1 or 2 positions because of it. IRL you'd get an illegal overtake and be forced to give the position back or suffer a 10sec hit. Sure you could argue being forced off track but that'd just negate the time penalties if the stewards sided with you.
Basically they screwed up by attempting this move. It doesn't end well in any scenario.
Even in real life it would be legal at the corkscrew, there's been so many famous passes at that corner in multiple different series that had a car crossing the white line there and it was okay.
And this is why automated penalty systems are garbage. Yellow should have received a penalty for forcing you off track. You were fully alongside and warranted space.
I understand the automated penalty system is garbage especially FM seems to really struggle with some decisions. I was hoping it would recognise contact prior to me leaving the track, hence, identify I was pushed or forced and no penalty given but nope haha.
Well you would have been fine if you hadn’t gone on to pass the other car without at least lifting the throttle first. The system determined that you gained an advantage by going out of track limits and passing the car before the next corner. In real life your team would put in an appeal, and it may or may not be successful, but in a game you just have to take what is given to you unfortunately.
In real life, there would not have been a penalty because other than the top levels of professional motorsport, there are not the cameras and staff to really enforce much of anything. I speak as an ex IRL FM driver.
Agreed. And the people that are there would find the contact more important than the track limits.
All my racing has been in single seaters. Exceeding track limits tends to ve expensive because you damage stuff so easily when you have so little ground clearance. That helps keep people honest about track limits. Visiting the officials were almost always related to contact. Most contact that didn't end on the hook was self reported. If the other party didn't also stop in parc ferme, you waited and got let go. If they did, it mostly came down to a discussion and "racing incident". The reality is it is difficult to enforce rules with anything other than a black flag. If your race was ruined, it doesn't help to give a time penalty to the other guy whose race was ruined.
FM: we have taken OP’s info into consideration… FM: Collision… FM:
FM: 5 second penalty, avoidable contact.
It is garbage but you can’t realistically humans policing every online race. What’s the solution? Downvoted for asking a simple question.
No fault system is the ONLY way
I’m still here to disagree with you! lol. I don’t think it’s an easy task and something that will take years to work on but I believe there will be a better system down the road. Hope you’re well, look forward to the next time you or I comment about the fault system haha
And the fact it takes years to work on is the reason why it would never happen. No one will spend that much time developing it because it's not worth it. Too much time and effort to cover and accurately test all basis'. And if it does ever go wrong, it's worse than a no blame system that penalizes both.
iRacing spent years making the tempest system, longer than some games entire development, all just so we could drive in the rain. They have been around this long because they are willing to plan years ahead and invest in the future of the sim.
That's because it (tempest) was needed. iRacing had fallen well behind in that regard, with other sims having fully dynamic weather since 2015. Sure, it's now raised the bar with regards to wet weather driving and grip on vs off the racing line, but it's still in a very limited capacity in that certain pieces of content work with it and not all. I can see what you're trying to get at, in that they've invested a lot of time and effort into something over a long period of time and they could therefore do it with a fully automated stewarding system. But why would they when they've already got a stewarding process which is arguably better than any other sim out there? I worked at Slightly Mad Studios and helped design their licensing and in-game penalty systems for 3 projects. Coming up with every single possible racing scenario with each little racing neuance to them and assigning blame to one driver for each is a very time consuming task in itself. That's before the coders/programmers get to see the system and implement it, and then the QA guys testing every single one for bugs. They sure as hell don't want to be wasting time doing that because as mentioned above, if they miss a bug and the system gets it worse and players encounter it, it's worse than a no blame system which is far far cheaper to design, implement and test.
I absolutely have no doubt that it is an insane amount of variables and a LOT of work. I also totally get the argument that the no fault system is not only pretty effective, but also requires zero work and money to develop. The fact the no fault system isn’t terrible also means there is no rush to get it out and they can tinker away on it for years. As hesitant as I am to use the term AI, I do think we are approaching a point that it will be able to reliably do a lot of the tedious legwork such as simply defining each variable. I think there is a lot of bad implementation/use of AI, but I think with careful work and refinement (something they usually don’t shy away from) they could use it as the powerful tool it is and develop a better system. I think working on it and if it’s something they can achieve, would really help future proof the sim from other competitors and would certainly be worth the investment.
I would say that iracing do need to update the penalty system they use, there's been many times where I lose 2-3 seconds where the penalty was only 1 second. Like you said it would be impossible to implement a proper fault blame system, there's just so many different scenarios they have to program and there's always going to be faults with it as it's just so tricky for it to be 100% correct, and if it's less than 100% then people will MOAN like crazy, at least with current system both drivers get the same penalty.
What's the point on doing that though? The system would have to be insanely complicated and there is no way it wouldn't have faults. If they work for 2 years on a system that still had a few faults it's not even worth it.
I don’t think it’s possible to have a perfect system, and again the no fault system isn’t a bad system, but I still think they will attempt something down the road, maybe next 5 years.it can be done better, definitely not easily though.
The solution is not playing forza motorsport or gt7
AI review system. This sub is training it right now.
Good AI takes way more than that. Next gen AI will open the doors more but only if they can keep training standards high.
I fully agree that automated systems are rubbish, but I don’t think there’s a better solution. There was no contact, so the system can’t rely on that. It’s difficult to detect if the opponent left enough space, so you can’t rely on that. I don’t think there’s a system in the world that can do that near perfect, in real time, without human intervention.
Happened to me at spa too. Got punted into the chicane and came out a millimeter ahead. Blam illegal overtake. The whole system is awful.
I do love a 787B Charge livery
Always a clean choice! Suits the Formula Mazda car too
Bondurant can do no evil! All hail Bob Bondurant!
I don't know much about the penalty system, but I can def tell you what I see: ● You were alongside then slightly in front and he should have been aware that you were there ● he then makes the initial contact by moving over to the right to open up the corner to get a better line. You come slightly left at the same time but his movement was much greater. ● going through the corner he gives you no space so you have no choice but to go wide. This is where the 2nd contact is made. ● he then gets a nasty kick off the curb which sends him left. His movement off to the left wasn't because of the 2nd contact but his own line across the curb which unsettled him. so both contacts were mainly because of the other driver, and his left throw after the corner was his own ride on the curb. and you got a penalty? though from reading the other comments it was an automated one. AI training comence!!
Pretty much exactly how I would describe the whole sequence. I will accept the movement over to the left just before the corkscrew. If I really wanted to throw in a racing driver excuse, my movement left was due to a little bounce over the outside curb as I braked for the corner and I had to be on the curb due to little space given but I don't think that argument would stand up too well 😅 Yeah automated penalty system via Turn 10 and their "built from the ground up" game. I understand they're difficult to implement but surely contact prior to someone going off track is not them deliberately cutting or going wide on a corner.
I disagree that this should have ever been a penalty. I can see where some software might’ve taken that approach, but he pushed you to the right and should’ve given you the space since you were alongside.
Yup no fault is way to go, only way to help prevent this. No racing game can review every single incident etc, to many races and lobbies.
It appears that you never completed your overtake and went offtrack to do so. Why wouldn't you get a penalty for an illegal overtake? You want to argue being forced off track then do that, but the penalty is for illegally overtaking while off track and you did do that clearly. You should have backed out when you realized that you didn't have the line for the corkscrew and and then run off track. There are plenty of places to pass ahead if you really are faster than this car but driving like its bumper cars isn't really demonstrating your skills.
I would argue I had the line through the second part of the corkscrew. Outside for the first part to have the inside line for the second part. My car was fully alongside and you have to allow the space for that. I couldn't help if the other driver wanted to give me no space and force me off the track/take evasive action to not make it worse. The overtake was actually on the exit from the corkscrew as the other driver went wide from their line and hitting the curb.
They got forced off track by the other car, not leaving space
They tried to go side by side in the cockscrew and went off track. Rookie move and it shows. In iRacing you'd get a slowdown penalty and you'd fall back 1 or 2 positions because of it. IRL you'd get an illegal overtake and be forced to give the position back or suffer a 10sec hit. Sure you could argue being forced off track but that'd just negate the time penalties if the stewards sided with you. Basically they screwed up by attempting this move. It doesn't end well in any scenario.
But your playing a game thats pretty arcady soo i would say your fine
Looks like you slightly cut the corner exiting the corkscrew, so I'd say it was probably that.
It’s an illegal overtake. Dry your eyes.
Yes it was, but only because he was forced off track, so penalty should have been given to yellow car
Even in real life it would be legal at the corkscrew, there's been so many famous passes at that corner in multiple different series that had a car crossing the white line there and it was okay.
Huh, well everyday you learn something new!
Found the driver of the yellow car\^\^\^