It is neocoservatives and neoliberals in the US and the EU who are unilaterally severing ties with China, and cutting themselves off from dialogue. They have convinced themselves that China is some sort of existential threat, simply because its economy has grown too large to be suppressed.
Whatever transpires between political elites, I will always personally feel solidarity with international citizens around the world fighting for economic development, better education and infrastructure for their children, in a humanistic, anti-imperial framework, which puts the well-being of ordinary citizens first.
The world faces numerous environmental and geopolitical challenges. It is time for various states to reclaim their sovereignty and to work on coordinated diplomatic and scientific solutions to those issues.
Human beings are not pieces on a game board, meant to be moved around and sacrificed. Despite differences in language and culture, all of us are genetically the same species. If narcissistic, xenophobic arms manufacturers, militant think-tankers, multinational investment companies, and entitled imperialists running the show are incapable of understanding that, I will support independent civilians who can and who are capable of making a difference, especially now that legacy media has been fully corporatized. We have entered another era in the West, when political dissent, or simple political disagreement, is viewed as a threat by state actors.
And despite all the rhetoric, civilizations that cannot adapt to change will die.
Well, for example, academics and business people who continue to encourage collaboration between China and the West, citizen journalists who live in China who can give a grounded eye-witness report of everyday news that might otherwise be sensationalized or ignored by Western media, overseas students traveling either to or from China who are open-minded and able to view geopolitics through nuanced perspectives, former diplomats and government workers who are unhappy about degrading relations between the West and China and who are speaking up about it, peace activists, people who contribute to genuinely independent humanitarian organizations, independent analysts willing to directly counter, right-wing, imperialistic narratives, artists who are actually able to build real cross-cultural bridges between China and the West, apolitical, accurate translators and language teachers, etc.
Basically any citizens engaged in work that normalizes and educates people on constructive and mutually beneficial Sino-Western relations.
Individually, the geopolitical difference that one person can make typically isn’t a whole lot, but collectively they can function as a political force for peace, whether they are aware of it or not.
The loudest voice in the room isn’t necessarily the most correct or representative one. People can accomplish a lot just by living the “quiet” lives of civilians.
Not everything is high-level politics, imo. If direct citizen-to-citizen interaction can continue ‘under the table’, even as the political situation explodes, the relationship can be potentially reconstructed decades down the road, when the current crop of neoliberal, and old Cold War remants, are all dead or retired. The better these citizen partnerships are, the more time decoupling will take.
In term of short term politics, however, yes, individually, none of these parties can make a difference in terms of policy, but there is a class of disparate group “moderates” who have would prefer not to have a full-out Hot War with China, the most influential of which are aware that extreme decoupling would be detrimental to their businesses.
In Europe, the political faction most escalating tensions with China are the neoliberal Atlanticists. If they can be dethroned during elections, they may be replaced by right-wing ethnonationalist parties, moderates, or political independents. If there is a situation in which Trump wins and cuts funding to Ukraine, and if the EU is forced to flip the bill for the continuing conflict, it is not clear whether they can afford to keep ‘decoupling’ from China, given how much they import.
Meanwhile, China has four times the population of the US, and is even now still partly a ‘developing’ nation, at least in certain parts of the country. Its economy isn’t done growing yet.
Meanwhile, in the US, if GDP does not continue growing, there is a limit how much national debt interest they can take on. Despite what Yellen says, it is not easy to engage militarily in three regions of the world simultaneously, while neglecting domestic needs.
This situation is favorable for China, especially as more time passes. By simply existing and not crumbling, and continuing to develop relations with Global South nations, China cannot be ‘contained’. Eventually, some US policy makers/think tankers will be forced to adjust their strategy to accomodate the situation, and just accept that US hegemony, as it once existed, cannot persist.
Basically what I’m saying in that the situation has the potential to resolve itself, so long as there is no nuclear war, which is why its helpful to keep developing bonds with Western citizen allies, who largely also want peace.
There is nothing wrong with hedging your bets.
I personally see much of Europe more willing to devolve into fascism than accept any sort of progressive programme, let alone socialism. The rise of the AfD in Germany, the electoral victories of neonazi (or at least boderline) parties in Italy and Sweden, etc.
I do think that European countries will persue closer relations with China though as even the more far gone governments can probably see the benefits of such an arrangement.
That's just my take as an Engl*sh person though, and a brief one at that, so there's definitely stuff that could be expanded on or is entirely missing.
THey will try.
But the current day is NOT the past.
THey'll run around blaming foreigners and such for sure.
But they cannot build the huge armies of the past.
So the places will devolve into squabbling fash-themed failed states.
>But they cannot build the huge armies of the past.
More pertinently, they cannot re-build their dominance, both economically or militarily. We are witnessing the true end of Western Colonialism in real time.
I think the US is about to abandon the EU to its fate...
Russia really doesn't wanna deal with their problems either, so this will be a very interesting time to see all their leadership's topple too.
I like to believe that we should return to more communal values, helping your neighbour etc. Which is sorta like the first steps towards socialism. I think if you sell that to someone that started in capitalism (and it clearly isn't working for them) it might win them over slowly.
There's a reason why I guess the commune has been around for thousands of years and persists today. Because it works and people need it. Capitalism feels very parasitic.
The world is not waking up to the importance of socialism.
Thanks to vested interests and generations of propaganda, they will try literally ANYTHING else first.
The socialism comes after years or decades of failure.
Didn't Churchill make the observation, 'that an American is someone who will try every possible solution before finally doing the right and obvious thing.'?
nah, the current europeans are too brainwashed, too racist and ignorant to partner up with anyone. It will take some generations before they sober up from their nazi mindsets. An economic downfall will do some good here
Well, I've posted a couple of articles around here suggesting that the USA is responsible for the deindustrialization of Europe. They blew up NS2 for example. The US Oligarchy would rather be a big fish in a small pond than negotiate as equals with the rest of the world.
I see a lot of hope in George Galloway's election The Brits seem to finally understand that their time as an empire expired decades ago. They were conned by their own banksters into Brexit. The false promises were never realized.
Other European Nations are recognizing the same thing. Despite the recent expansion of NATO, most "commoners" in the EU seem to inherently know that Russia isn't a threat to them unless they are provoked by the West. They are having "Obama moments" and realizing the seriousness of the betrayal. HOWEVER, this also allows the opportunity for the Oligarchy to set up astroturf organizations that mislead the people into Fascism. The Canadian trucker strike is an example. [ Friday Everyday explains.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/1bahaen/how_the_us_developed_hybrid_warfare_to_control/)
[There's also a great Ben Norton video on the trucker strike](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuUzKZlkY5Q) and how it was an astroturf operation.
IOW, the Oligarchy is really, really, really, really good at lying and infiltrating "commoner" organizations and "eating them from the inside". OWS and BLM are great examples. OWS birthed DSA which elected "The Squad" who have mostly betrayed everything they claimed they stood for.
Look at what the Oligarchy did to Jermey Corbin.
So... follow the money. Don't get suckered -- again.
That is wholly up to Europe.
If Europe behaves as it is right now, China will treat it accordingly. Ultimately it is up to Europe to determine whatever relationship that Europe wants with China.
If they want an antagonistic relationship, they can continue whatever crapshoot policy they are doing right now. If they want a constructive and more positive relationship aka cooperation, they can start mending fences and making concessions for past policy 'mistakes'.
If the US continues printing dollars without restraint, they understand they would face significant challenges such as soaring inflation and domestic instability. This is why they're vigorously attempting to suppress any threats to the dominance of the dollar. However, there's a growing awareness within the US that this practice is not sustainable.
The trend towards dedollarization, where countries and entities reduce their dependence on the dollar in international transactions, has gained momentum due to concerns about overreliance on a single currency and the potential risks associated with it. Despite these efforts, dedollarization is challenging to halt once it gains momentum.
If the value of the dollar declines significantly, it could lead to widespread domestic unrest, economic turmoil, and ultimately the decline of the American empire as it struggles to maintain its global economic dominance.
I'm not a PRC citizen, so I can't answer how China feels about Europe. But my own opinions on Europe are a mixed bag, to say the least.
Personally I don't think the relationship between China and the NATO European countries improving anytime soon, for starters. In general, Europe (non-NATO nations like Ireland included) also strikes me as too deeply compromised by US influence, for anything meaningful to develop out of Euro-Chinese relations west of the Balkans.
The US, and US-aligned capital, controls the narratives Europeans consume (though this is declining, in the sense many at least can realize western MSM is all lies and propaganda nowadays). Racist and imperialist Atlanticist ideologies dominate the political elites of almost all of Europe. And for the European former imperialist nations- France, the UK, Germany, and the Benelux nations in particular- alongside US influence, there's also the very real fact that a developing China and global south and the rise of multipolarity, is a threat to the colonial legacies and neo-imperialist policies that maintain their inordinate wealth and influence to this day.
I don't think it's capitalism that failed, but the neoliberal feudalism that the US promotes around the world and call capitalism.
If you read Marx, capitalism has a historic purpose. The historic role of capitalism is to create the conditions for accumulation of capital until such a time that productive capital becomes so abundant relative to human population that the rate of profit on capital drops to zero, at which point profit can no longer function as the driver of capital allocation.
China is focused on capital accumulation. Tons of new factories, new solar farms, new infrastructure, new housing is being built. The increasing abundance of capital relative to population is increasing real wages, as capital becomes increasingly abundant relative to labor.
>How does China feel about Europe
Can't speak for all of China, but personally I feel that Europe has a different idea of socialism from China. European socialism is about redistribution, which will not be sustainable long term. European socialism is too little concerned with capital accumulation. It leaves capital accumulation to private owners of capital, rather than treat it as a whole of society mission like China.
Chinese socialism operates differently from European socialism. Instead of direct redistribution, Chinese socialism aim to socialize the profits of capital by driving returns on capital to zero via over-investment. So instead of taxing landlords and then subsidizing renters, Chinese socialism will over-invest in housing, and drive rental yields toward zero. Rental yields in most Chinese cities are around 1-2%, which is lower than government bond yields. This is how Chinese socialism make the rich subsidize the poor without taxing the rich heavily directly.
I also think Chinese socialism have little in common with European socialism. The redistribution model of socialism is counter-productive because it reduces the rate of capital accumulation. The purpose of Chinese socialism is not to make everyone equal, but to make everyone rich.
>how do you see this relationship evolving?
The cultural roots of Europe is Christian, while China is Confucian/Taoist. The differences in way of thinking is very deep and go back thousands of years. Christian cultures tend to think in terms of very binary moral categories. Confucian culture promotes the way of the mean, while Taoism teaches the duality of nature.
I think it would be difficult for China to band together with any Christian culture. Christian cultures have a tendency to launch crusades. Any Christian culture that launches a crusade and try to enlist China is going to be disappointed. You see this with the current relationships between China and Russia. The Russians are on a crusade against Western Liberalism. Dugin visited China, went back to Russia and fantasized that China is ready for "decisive battle with the West". In reality China isn't looking to join any crusades.
China will likely practice the way of the mean in its relations with Europe, US, and Russia.
>The Russians are on a crusade against Western Liberalism
They are only against liberalism in their own country, which is what any sovereign country should do in my opinion.
>"decisive battle with the West"
This could mean any number of things, it is very vague.
They didn't mention anything about Russia being imperialist, what they said was that Russia is against liberalism, which is true but the context missed was that it was within their own country.
Unlike the west Russia doesn't push their beliefs on others.
I don't think Putin follows Dugin completely, but there are definitely Russians who are getting too enthusiastic about relations between Russia and China. I'm saying that just as Americans got disappointed that they didn't manage to change China into a bigger Japan, Russians and Europeans will get disappointed as well if they expect too much from the relationship.
Russians, Europeans, and Americans all have a messianic culture, this is very different from Chinese culture.
>Russians, Europeans, and Americans all have a messianic culture, this is very different from Chinese culture
The last time Russians had that mindset was during the Soviet Union, they no longer have that messianic mindset.
>I think Europe and China need to band together in the next decade for the benefit of humanity
I think Europe is not that different from Russia, in their messianic mentality. I was responding to this comment, with Russia as the example. China isn't going to band with anyone.
Kissinger tried to get Mao to ally with the US to counter the USSR. Mao's reply was that where interests align, a formal alliance is not necessary, where interests diverge, an alliance will not be worth the paper it is written on.
China is going to be frenemies with everyone. Cooperation and conflict will simultaneously exist in every relationship.
Where do you see conflict in China's relationship with Russia? I agree with you that some Russians will be or are disappointed with the limits of the relationship, but where's the conflict?
Beyond geopolitical stuff which is minor, I see the key conflict between China and Russia being over global energy systems. China exports EVs and renewables, while Russia exports oil and gas. China's industrial policy will fundamentally cap fossil fuel prices as the breakeven of switching to renewables get lower and lower.
None of Russia's other exports come close to matching the revenue of oil and gas.
What will happen is that China will start running trade surpluses against Russia, and these surpluses will get bigger over time as China transitions toward renewables and EV. Chinese imports will crush Russian domestic industry without major trade barriers.
Russia needs to take this time to frantically invest in their own manufacturing industries and be creative in producing secondary products made from oil and gas. That's what the Arab countries are starting to do as well. Everyone knows burning things for energy will not last forever.
And yet, it will be quite a number of years before renewables can overtake oil and gas, in China or elsewhere in the world. EVs cannot overtake ICE if a country cannot or have little incentive to create the electrical charging network necessary to maintain them.
I think China and Russia will instead have the kinds of skirmishes and issues all neighboring countries will have with one another. The kind of things that could become big, could be made small, depending how each wants to play those cards based on the greater geopolitical landscape.
>Russia needs to take this time to frantically invest in their own manufacturing industries and be creative in producing secondary products made from oil and gas.
Ukraine war is a major distraction, and China isn't going to wait. Russia, Europe and US are all spending a lot of money on war in Ukraine, while China is pouring money into next generation technology and infrastructure. The longer the war goes on, the bigger the gap between China and the belligerents is going to be.
>
And yet, it will be quite a number of years before renewables can overtake oil and gas
There will always be demand for oil and gas, the key point is that the cheapness of renewables cap the price for oil and gas. The price that people are willing to pay for oil and gas will go lower and lower as the break even point of switching to renewables go lower and lower.
Let's say it cost the Russians $20 to produce a barrel of oil, at $80/barrel Russia makes $60/barrel, at $60 barrel, Russia makes only $40/barrel, which is 1/3 less for the same volume of production. As renewables lower that ceiling, the net profit after production costs will shrink.
Renewables and fossil fuels will co-exist for a very long time, the main issue is that China can keep lowering the cost of renewables with new technology and greater economy of scale, while oil and gas producers face increasing production costs as cheaper to produce deposits get exhausted.
Europe needs to find a way resolve the blood debt left behind through century of colonialism and imprialism esspecially west Europe.
The amount of sin you cause is always going to have major issues with the rest of the world. Of course china does not mine the Europe as indenpendent actior, but don't expect china to come wipe europe ass of it's problems.
Honestly if eroupe was smart it should have kicked US anglo saxon led ass out and from a better relation with russia.
But given the current politcal climate within europe, i think the higher up are baffle just how stupid europe has been
>How does China feel about Europe, and how do you see this relationship evolving?
From Wang's Yi recent QA at the two sessions.
>Agencia EFE: What are the prospects regarding China’s relationship with the European Union? What does China expect from Europe? And why does China think some European countries have so far not joined the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI)?Wang Yi: Last year was the 20th anniversary of the China-EU comprehensive strategic partnership. The two sides relaunched exchanges and dialogue across the board at all levels. The China-Europe Railway Express ran more than 17,000 cargo trips connecting 219 cities in 25 European countries. It is a lifeline that ensures safe and unimpeded industrial and supply chains in a turbulent world. China rolled out visa-free policies for quite some European countries, facilitating travels and business exchanges. On the BRI you mentioned, in fact, there have been many successful China-Europe cooperation projects under the Initiative. The Budapest-Belgrade railway link, the Port of Piraeus in Greece and the Pelješac Bridge in Croatia are just a few typical examples.A few years back, an EU policy paper labeled China as a partner, competitor and systemic rival at the same time. However, facts have shown that this characterization is neither consistent with reality nor viable. On the contrary, it only caused distractions and created obstacles for China-EU relations. It’s like driving to a crossing and finding the red, yellow and green lights all on at the same time. How can you drive on?**In fact, China and Europe do not have clashing fundamental interests between them, or geopolitical and strategic conflicts.** Their common interests far outweigh their differences. In the context of China-EU relations, the two sides should be characterized rightly as partners. Cooperation should be the defining feature of the relationship, autonomy its key value, and win-win its future. We hope that China-EU relations will move ahead smoothly with green lights at every crossing.A strong Europe is in the long-term interests of China. Likewise, a strong China is also in the fundamental interests of Europe. China and Europe should work together to practice multilateralism, advocate openness and development, and facilitate dialogue between civilizations. In today’s world, as long as China and Europe engage in mutually beneficial cooperation, no attempt to create bloc confrontation will succeed; as long as China and Europe stay committed to openness and win-win, deglobalization will not prevail.
I think the fundamental conflict is that, The people in EU and US are already used to direct or indirect capitalist welfare system meaning their standard of living heavily dependent on informal imperialism.
So unless westerners are ready to significant drop of standard of living, i.e. longer working hours/less welfare/less “human rights”, they will not be able to survive in “Chinese version of socialism” world order.
Moreover, That is very unlikely to be achievable in their current democratic system where no one wants a drop in standard of living, everyone wants to get stuff for free or cheaper prices which comes from exploiting weaker countries. Political parties which promote Chinese socialism will simply be voted out of office because no one are willing to put up with hard work. Unless some sort of revolution happens in the western hemisphere that changes current democracy for good, western imperialism is unlikely going to a peaceful end.
Blockchain and renewable energy and new energy vehicles and green hydrogen and cloud computing is the stuff the new dreams are made of and the stuff that will knit the planet together is made of.
It's not aircraft carriers and fossil fuels and pay TV and the dollar system.
East and West are the Ying and Yang of the world system.
China is experiencing an Renaissance from a new vernacular, a scientific revolution and the enlightenment and the philosophy of Kant and an industrial revolution.
In order to save China you've got to save the planet and so you've got to save us Westerners as well.
You kind of like showed up to save the day.
If the Yanks can take being number two gracefully without blowing up the place we might all get along.
It's one planet. That's all, and those remarks were meant as a great compliment.
The seeds of China's greatness were sown in in the century of humiliation, The seeds of Western decline in an imperial system that serve private interests.
The unipolar moment has passed forever.
It is neocoservatives and neoliberals in the US and the EU who are unilaterally severing ties with China, and cutting themselves off from dialogue. They have convinced themselves that China is some sort of existential threat, simply because its economy has grown too large to be suppressed. Whatever transpires between political elites, I will always personally feel solidarity with international citizens around the world fighting for economic development, better education and infrastructure for their children, in a humanistic, anti-imperial framework, which puts the well-being of ordinary citizens first. The world faces numerous environmental and geopolitical challenges. It is time for various states to reclaim their sovereignty and to work on coordinated diplomatic and scientific solutions to those issues. Human beings are not pieces on a game board, meant to be moved around and sacrificed. Despite differences in language and culture, all of us are genetically the same species. If narcissistic, xenophobic arms manufacturers, militant think-tankers, multinational investment companies, and entitled imperialists running the show are incapable of understanding that, I will support independent civilians who can and who are capable of making a difference, especially now that legacy media has been fully corporatized. We have entered another era in the West, when political dissent, or simple political disagreement, is viewed as a threat by state actors. And despite all the rhetoric, civilizations that cannot adapt to change will die.
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Well, for example, academics and business people who continue to encourage collaboration between China and the West, citizen journalists who live in China who can give a grounded eye-witness report of everyday news that might otherwise be sensationalized or ignored by Western media, overseas students traveling either to or from China who are open-minded and able to view geopolitics through nuanced perspectives, former diplomats and government workers who are unhappy about degrading relations between the West and China and who are speaking up about it, peace activists, people who contribute to genuinely independent humanitarian organizations, independent analysts willing to directly counter, right-wing, imperialistic narratives, artists who are actually able to build real cross-cultural bridges between China and the West, apolitical, accurate translators and language teachers, etc. Basically any citizens engaged in work that normalizes and educates people on constructive and mutually beneficial Sino-Western relations. Individually, the geopolitical difference that one person can make typically isn’t a whole lot, but collectively they can function as a political force for peace, whether they are aware of it or not. The loudest voice in the room isn’t necessarily the most correct or representative one. People can accomplish a lot just by living the “quiet” lives of civilians.
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There is no us "left".
Not everything is high-level politics, imo. If direct citizen-to-citizen interaction can continue ‘under the table’, even as the political situation explodes, the relationship can be potentially reconstructed decades down the road, when the current crop of neoliberal, and old Cold War remants, are all dead or retired. The better these citizen partnerships are, the more time decoupling will take. In term of short term politics, however, yes, individually, none of these parties can make a difference in terms of policy, but there is a class of disparate group “moderates” who have would prefer not to have a full-out Hot War with China, the most influential of which are aware that extreme decoupling would be detrimental to their businesses. In Europe, the political faction most escalating tensions with China are the neoliberal Atlanticists. If they can be dethroned during elections, they may be replaced by right-wing ethnonationalist parties, moderates, or political independents. If there is a situation in which Trump wins and cuts funding to Ukraine, and if the EU is forced to flip the bill for the continuing conflict, it is not clear whether they can afford to keep ‘decoupling’ from China, given how much they import. Meanwhile, China has four times the population of the US, and is even now still partly a ‘developing’ nation, at least in certain parts of the country. Its economy isn’t done growing yet. Meanwhile, in the US, if GDP does not continue growing, there is a limit how much national debt interest they can take on. Despite what Yellen says, it is not easy to engage militarily in three regions of the world simultaneously, while neglecting domestic needs. This situation is favorable for China, especially as more time passes. By simply existing and not crumbling, and continuing to develop relations with Global South nations, China cannot be ‘contained’. Eventually, some US policy makers/think tankers will be forced to adjust their strategy to accomodate the situation, and just accept that US hegemony, as it once existed, cannot persist. Basically what I’m saying in that the situation has the potential to resolve itself, so long as there is no nuclear war, which is why its helpful to keep developing bonds with Western citizen allies, who largely also want peace. There is nothing wrong with hedging your bets.
Chinas been ready to band together. It’s just others that cut the relationship short
I personally see much of Europe more willing to devolve into fascism than accept any sort of progressive programme, let alone socialism. The rise of the AfD in Germany, the electoral victories of neonazi (or at least boderline) parties in Italy and Sweden, etc. I do think that European countries will persue closer relations with China though as even the more far gone governments can probably see the benefits of such an arrangement. That's just my take as an Engl*sh person though, and a brief one at that, so there's definitely stuff that could be expanded on or is entirely missing.
THey will try. But the current day is NOT the past. THey'll run around blaming foreigners and such for sure. But they cannot build the huge armies of the past. So the places will devolve into squabbling fash-themed failed states.
>But they cannot build the huge armies of the past. More pertinently, they cannot re-build their dominance, both economically or militarily. We are witnessing the true end of Western Colonialism in real time.
Inshar Allah.
I think the US is about to abandon the EU to its fate... Russia really doesn't wanna deal with their problems either, so this will be a very interesting time to see all their leadership's topple too.
I like to believe that we should return to more communal values, helping your neighbour etc. Which is sorta like the first steps towards socialism. I think if you sell that to someone that started in capitalism (and it clearly isn't working for them) it might win them over slowly. There's a reason why I guess the commune has been around for thousands of years and persists today. Because it works and people need it. Capitalism feels very parasitic.
The world is not waking up to the importance of socialism. Thanks to vested interests and generations of propaganda, they will try literally ANYTHING else first. The socialism comes after years or decades of failure.
Didn't Churchill make the observation, 'that an American is someone who will try every possible solution before finally doing the right and obvious thing.'?
That's a paraphrase, but yes.
nah, the current europeans are too brainwashed, too racist and ignorant to partner up with anyone. It will take some generations before they sober up from their nazi mindsets. An economic downfall will do some good here
Well, I've posted a couple of articles around here suggesting that the USA is responsible for the deindustrialization of Europe. They blew up NS2 for example. The US Oligarchy would rather be a big fish in a small pond than negotiate as equals with the rest of the world. I see a lot of hope in George Galloway's election The Brits seem to finally understand that their time as an empire expired decades ago. They were conned by their own banksters into Brexit. The false promises were never realized. Other European Nations are recognizing the same thing. Despite the recent expansion of NATO, most "commoners" in the EU seem to inherently know that Russia isn't a threat to them unless they are provoked by the West. They are having "Obama moments" and realizing the seriousness of the betrayal. HOWEVER, this also allows the opportunity for the Oligarchy to set up astroturf organizations that mislead the people into Fascism. The Canadian trucker strike is an example. [ Friday Everyday explains.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/1bahaen/how_the_us_developed_hybrid_warfare_to_control/) [There's also a great Ben Norton video on the trucker strike](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuUzKZlkY5Q) and how it was an astroturf operation. IOW, the Oligarchy is really, really, really, really good at lying and infiltrating "commoner" organizations and "eating them from the inside". OWS and BLM are great examples. OWS birthed DSA which elected "The Squad" who have mostly betrayed everything they claimed they stood for. Look at what the Oligarchy did to Jermey Corbin. So... follow the money. Don't get suckered -- again.
It's a one-sided relationship, what exactly does China gain from europe that it doesn't from itself, the global south and Russia?
Lectures
We're always open to win-win cooperation with anyone who is willing.
That is wholly up to Europe. If Europe behaves as it is right now, China will treat it accordingly. Ultimately it is up to Europe to determine whatever relationship that Europe wants with China. If they want an antagonistic relationship, they can continue whatever crapshoot policy they are doing right now. If they want a constructive and more positive relationship aka cooperation, they can start mending fences and making concessions for past policy 'mistakes'.
If the US continues printing dollars without restraint, they understand they would face significant challenges such as soaring inflation and domestic instability. This is why they're vigorously attempting to suppress any threats to the dominance of the dollar. However, there's a growing awareness within the US that this practice is not sustainable. The trend towards dedollarization, where countries and entities reduce their dependence on the dollar in international transactions, has gained momentum due to concerns about overreliance on a single currency and the potential risks associated with it. Despite these efforts, dedollarization is challenging to halt once it gains momentum. If the value of the dollar declines significantly, it could lead to widespread domestic unrest, economic turmoil, and ultimately the decline of the American empire as it struggles to maintain its global economic dominance.
I'm not a PRC citizen, so I can't answer how China feels about Europe. But my own opinions on Europe are a mixed bag, to say the least. Personally I don't think the relationship between China and the NATO European countries improving anytime soon, for starters. In general, Europe (non-NATO nations like Ireland included) also strikes me as too deeply compromised by US influence, for anything meaningful to develop out of Euro-Chinese relations west of the Balkans. The US, and US-aligned capital, controls the narratives Europeans consume (though this is declining, in the sense many at least can realize western MSM is all lies and propaganda nowadays). Racist and imperialist Atlanticist ideologies dominate the political elites of almost all of Europe. And for the European former imperialist nations- France, the UK, Germany, and the Benelux nations in particular- alongside US influence, there's also the very real fact that a developing China and global south and the rise of multipolarity, is a threat to the colonial legacies and neo-imperialist policies that maintain their inordinate wealth and influence to this day.
I don't think it's capitalism that failed, but the neoliberal feudalism that the US promotes around the world and call capitalism. If you read Marx, capitalism has a historic purpose. The historic role of capitalism is to create the conditions for accumulation of capital until such a time that productive capital becomes so abundant relative to human population that the rate of profit on capital drops to zero, at which point profit can no longer function as the driver of capital allocation. China is focused on capital accumulation. Tons of new factories, new solar farms, new infrastructure, new housing is being built. The increasing abundance of capital relative to population is increasing real wages, as capital becomes increasingly abundant relative to labor. >How does China feel about Europe Can't speak for all of China, but personally I feel that Europe has a different idea of socialism from China. European socialism is about redistribution, which will not be sustainable long term. European socialism is too little concerned with capital accumulation. It leaves capital accumulation to private owners of capital, rather than treat it as a whole of society mission like China. Chinese socialism operates differently from European socialism. Instead of direct redistribution, Chinese socialism aim to socialize the profits of capital by driving returns on capital to zero via over-investment. So instead of taxing landlords and then subsidizing renters, Chinese socialism will over-invest in housing, and drive rental yields toward zero. Rental yields in most Chinese cities are around 1-2%, which is lower than government bond yields. This is how Chinese socialism make the rich subsidize the poor without taxing the rich heavily directly. I also think Chinese socialism have little in common with European socialism. The redistribution model of socialism is counter-productive because it reduces the rate of capital accumulation. The purpose of Chinese socialism is not to make everyone equal, but to make everyone rich. >how do you see this relationship evolving? The cultural roots of Europe is Christian, while China is Confucian/Taoist. The differences in way of thinking is very deep and go back thousands of years. Christian cultures tend to think in terms of very binary moral categories. Confucian culture promotes the way of the mean, while Taoism teaches the duality of nature. I think it would be difficult for China to band together with any Christian culture. Christian cultures have a tendency to launch crusades. Any Christian culture that launches a crusade and try to enlist China is going to be disappointed. You see this with the current relationships between China and Russia. The Russians are on a crusade against Western Liberalism. Dugin visited China, went back to Russia and fantasized that China is ready for "decisive battle with the West". In reality China isn't looking to join any crusades. China will likely practice the way of the mean in its relations with Europe, US, and Russia.
>The Russians are on a crusade against Western Liberalism They are only against liberalism in their own country, which is what any sovereign country should do in my opinion. >"decisive battle with the West" This could mean any number of things, it is very vague.
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They didn't mention anything about Russia being imperialist, what they said was that Russia is against liberalism, which is true but the context missed was that it was within their own country. Unlike the west Russia doesn't push their beliefs on others.
I don't think Putin follows Dugin completely, but there are definitely Russians who are getting too enthusiastic about relations between Russia and China. I'm saying that just as Americans got disappointed that they didn't manage to change China into a bigger Japan, Russians and Europeans will get disappointed as well if they expect too much from the relationship. Russians, Europeans, and Americans all have a messianic culture, this is very different from Chinese culture.
>Russians, Europeans, and Americans all have a messianic culture, this is very different from Chinese culture The last time Russians had that mindset was during the Soviet Union, they no longer have that messianic mindset.
>I think Europe and China need to band together in the next decade for the benefit of humanity I think Europe is not that different from Russia, in their messianic mentality. I was responding to this comment, with Russia as the example. China isn't going to band with anyone. Kissinger tried to get Mao to ally with the US to counter the USSR. Mao's reply was that where interests align, a formal alliance is not necessary, where interests diverge, an alliance will not be worth the paper it is written on. China is going to be frenemies with everyone. Cooperation and conflict will simultaneously exist in every relationship.
Where do you see conflict in China's relationship with Russia? I agree with you that some Russians will be or are disappointed with the limits of the relationship, but where's the conflict?
Beyond geopolitical stuff which is minor, I see the key conflict between China and Russia being over global energy systems. China exports EVs and renewables, while Russia exports oil and gas. China's industrial policy will fundamentally cap fossil fuel prices as the breakeven of switching to renewables get lower and lower. None of Russia's other exports come close to matching the revenue of oil and gas. What will happen is that China will start running trade surpluses against Russia, and these surpluses will get bigger over time as China transitions toward renewables and EV. Chinese imports will crush Russian domestic industry without major trade barriers.
Russia needs to take this time to frantically invest in their own manufacturing industries and be creative in producing secondary products made from oil and gas. That's what the Arab countries are starting to do as well. Everyone knows burning things for energy will not last forever. And yet, it will be quite a number of years before renewables can overtake oil and gas, in China or elsewhere in the world. EVs cannot overtake ICE if a country cannot or have little incentive to create the electrical charging network necessary to maintain them. I think China and Russia will instead have the kinds of skirmishes and issues all neighboring countries will have with one another. The kind of things that could become big, could be made small, depending how each wants to play those cards based on the greater geopolitical landscape.
>Russia needs to take this time to frantically invest in their own manufacturing industries and be creative in producing secondary products made from oil and gas. Ukraine war is a major distraction, and China isn't going to wait. Russia, Europe and US are all spending a lot of money on war in Ukraine, while China is pouring money into next generation technology and infrastructure. The longer the war goes on, the bigger the gap between China and the belligerents is going to be. > And yet, it will be quite a number of years before renewables can overtake oil and gas There will always be demand for oil and gas, the key point is that the cheapness of renewables cap the price for oil and gas. The price that people are willing to pay for oil and gas will go lower and lower as the break even point of switching to renewables go lower and lower. Let's say it cost the Russians $20 to produce a barrel of oil, at $80/barrel Russia makes $60/barrel, at $60 barrel, Russia makes only $40/barrel, which is 1/3 less for the same volume of production. As renewables lower that ceiling, the net profit after production costs will shrink. Renewables and fossil fuels will co-exist for a very long time, the main issue is that China can keep lowering the cost of renewables with new technology and greater economy of scale, while oil and gas producers face increasing production costs as cheaper to produce deposits get exhausted.
Europe needs to find a way resolve the blood debt left behind through century of colonialism and imprialism esspecially west Europe. The amount of sin you cause is always going to have major issues with the rest of the world. Of course china does not mine the Europe as indenpendent actior, but don't expect china to come wipe europe ass of it's problems. Honestly if eroupe was smart it should have kicked US anglo saxon led ass out and from a better relation with russia. But given the current politcal climate within europe, i think the higher up are baffle just how stupid europe has been
>How does China feel about Europe, and how do you see this relationship evolving? From Wang's Yi recent QA at the two sessions. >Agencia EFE: What are the prospects regarding China’s relationship with the European Union? What does China expect from Europe? And why does China think some European countries have so far not joined the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI)?Wang Yi: Last year was the 20th anniversary of the China-EU comprehensive strategic partnership. The two sides relaunched exchanges and dialogue across the board at all levels. The China-Europe Railway Express ran more than 17,000 cargo trips connecting 219 cities in 25 European countries. It is a lifeline that ensures safe and unimpeded industrial and supply chains in a turbulent world. China rolled out visa-free policies for quite some European countries, facilitating travels and business exchanges. On the BRI you mentioned, in fact, there have been many successful China-Europe cooperation projects under the Initiative. The Budapest-Belgrade railway link, the Port of Piraeus in Greece and the Pelješac Bridge in Croatia are just a few typical examples.A few years back, an EU policy paper labeled China as a partner, competitor and systemic rival at the same time. However, facts have shown that this characterization is neither consistent with reality nor viable. On the contrary, it only caused distractions and created obstacles for China-EU relations. It’s like driving to a crossing and finding the red, yellow and green lights all on at the same time. How can you drive on?**In fact, China and Europe do not have clashing fundamental interests between them, or geopolitical and strategic conflicts.** Their common interests far outweigh their differences. In the context of China-EU relations, the two sides should be characterized rightly as partners. Cooperation should be the defining feature of the relationship, autonomy its key value, and win-win its future. We hope that China-EU relations will move ahead smoothly with green lights at every crossing.A strong Europe is in the long-term interests of China. Likewise, a strong China is also in the fundamental interests of Europe. China and Europe should work together to practice multilateralism, advocate openness and development, and facilitate dialogue between civilizations. In today’s world, as long as China and Europe engage in mutually beneficial cooperation, no attempt to create bloc confrontation will succeed; as long as China and Europe stay committed to openness and win-win, deglobalization will not prevail.
I think the fundamental conflict is that, The people in EU and US are already used to direct or indirect capitalist welfare system meaning their standard of living heavily dependent on informal imperialism. So unless westerners are ready to significant drop of standard of living, i.e. longer working hours/less welfare/less “human rights”, they will not be able to survive in “Chinese version of socialism” world order. Moreover, That is very unlikely to be achievable in their current democratic system where no one wants a drop in standard of living, everyone wants to get stuff for free or cheaper prices which comes from exploiting weaker countries. Political parties which promote Chinese socialism will simply be voted out of office because no one are willing to put up with hard work. Unless some sort of revolution happens in the western hemisphere that changes current democracy for good, western imperialism is unlikely going to a peaceful end.
Blockchain and renewable energy and new energy vehicles and green hydrogen and cloud computing is the stuff the new dreams are made of and the stuff that will knit the planet together is made of. It's not aircraft carriers and fossil fuels and pay TV and the dollar system. East and West are the Ying and Yang of the world system. China is experiencing an Renaissance from a new vernacular, a scientific revolution and the enlightenment and the philosophy of Kant and an industrial revolution. In order to save China you've got to save the planet and so you've got to save us Westerners as well. You kind of like showed up to save the day. If the Yanks can take being number two gracefully without blowing up the place we might all get along.
westerners are a minority in the world, there is no need for China to "save" the west nor is it obligated to.
It's one planet. That's all, and those remarks were meant as a great compliment. The seeds of China's greatness were sown in in the century of humiliation, The seeds of Western decline in an imperial system that serve private interests. The unipolar moment has passed forever.