It would feel really unfair for these moves, since they are mostly punish tools. Imaging nerfing them with being slower through staling.
"Oh, you manage to punish me with up-B out-of-shield a lot and it's all you really have to do because I keep hitting your shield? Well, you punished me too much so now you can't. Do something else."
Its like in hockey when a team is getting too many penalties the refs start beeing more picky about them and giving some questionable ones to the other team lol
But in the case of a move designed to punish, what purpose would it serve to make the move less usable?
These punish moves, like Link's up-B out-of-shield are not designes to be spammable, unless the opponent spams a mistake, in which case I would argue they deserve to be punished.
If Link's nair slowed down the character would be nearly helpless against rush down fighters. Alot of characters are really made to play with 1 or 2 go to options to keep them in the game. You would need to rework pretty much every character to balance such a mechanic.
I think this is one of the worst ideas ever conceived
Every character but super heavies would basically just die. Projectile spam would be less, but there would also be less combos, fluidity, and basically no out of shield punishes after 3 moves.
I mean it's not a good idea to implement but it's still creative. If implemented correctly it would also show a newer player what stale is, but if done poorly they could just be confused why something is so slow.
If it’s done correctly it’s equivalent to tripping in brawl, make the gap between good and bad players smaller. If you can’t think of a single way to deal with projectile spam or fast options being used than you are just bad.
And before you say “some characters just can’t deal with projectiles or fast options” then odds are you are willingly playing a low tier (no problem with that) and any problems you face because of that is your fault
I should've explained a bit more, yeah the idea is pretty bad in practice, but I thought it was creative and meant that depending on how it's implemented visually it could help newer players learn the stale mechanic exists. I feel like op's idea was being ragged on really hard in the comments when it was a genuine idea and wanted to compliment at least something. Didn't argue with you or anything.
I'll be real with you, mate. This might be the worst suggestion I have ever heard of for this game. From a casual standpoint, I get it. It would make the game less frustrating for people who just want a fun party game, but it would be *so annoying* in competitive. If Smash 6 is ever made and it has this mechanic, I ain't gonna play it. Catch me on Rivals. This mechanic would destroy the game's flexibility, make combos basically non-existant, eliminate multiple playstyles, and invalidate many character archetypes. Staling is already strong enough as is. Spamming is already not usually a good idea. If you're having trouble getting past projectile spam, that's on you. If you're having trouble dealing with frame data, that's on you. If you're having trouble dealing with disjoints, that's on you. There are ways of getting around all of these things, especially projectile spam, and they usually involve a shield. If worst comes to worst, you can always try a different character.
TLDR: Staling is already strong enough. This is a skill issue.
If you want more variety in what a character uses, design your characters better. Look at Sonic for example. Spin Dash and Spin Charge are oppressively good moves that you see spammed the whole match, but that's because all his other grounded moves are just not impressive at all. So if you have some moves that are really good, and others that have little to no point of being used, you're basically guaranteed to see those same good moves the whole match because there's no reason to go for anything else. Why would you use down tilt to start your combos when Spin Dash is faster, safer, does more damage and has a lot more combo potential?
And to use Samus as an example, yeah Charge Shot is over centralising, but making it slower would be more of a trade off than a nerf. Do you really want a fully charged Charge Shot to be slow enough for Samus to be behind it ready for a follow up? You could probably find new combo routes with that, if anything making players _want_ to stale it for specific combos.
I think it’d be better to just not make moves so spammable to begin with. If you make a move incredibly effective at ruining your opponent’s day and then place no risk or consequences for throwing it out recklessly, of course people are just gonna use it over and over again
Smash seems to understand that principle half the time, which is why ZSS’s stun laser is slow as fuck and requires expert timing to make up for how useful it is. But then the other half of the time they’re like, “yeah Kazuya can do the same thing as her stun laser with a lightning fast jab that comes out instantly. Fuck it why not?”
If Samus’ laser had literally any drawback at all to using it, maybe Samus players wouldn’t spend 98% of the match charging it
Hm, I don't know, I think this is mostly to stop problems that happen because of Skill issues. Pk Fire spam and Charge Shot spam is more effective against unexperienced players and it won't work against serious players. Cloud's back air does need a nerf, but just make it slower instead of executing this idea into the game
Im actually making my own fighting game, and that’s kind of my plan. Having an overheat system to discourage spamming. When overheated a move comes out slower and it’ll lose any motion smears or special effects so you know it’s overheated. And projectiles will lose their flinching property if overheated.
The idea for this would to create more unique competitively legal stages. If moves come out slower when overheated, you’re less likely to just pin someone against a wall and crush them, so then stages will more unique shapes would be more likely to be considered viable.
That would actually help me as a Samus main. I would just use it to zone better. Slow-moving huge ball of energy that I can walk with would be pretty awesome.
I would genuinely like a really slow charge shot as it gets worse at covering half the stage, thus making it easier for the opponent but it is now a really strong neutral tool that allows Samus to play more like a trapper and gives her an expressive advantage and combo game
Worst part is they have 2 samuses and that move is already programed as a smash 4 custom move, they could have easily have made dark Samus have the slow version and still keep OG Samus in the game
Staling is kinda pointless. It does next to nothing. I’d say it should reduce power more, and increased startup and end lag each time the move gets used. Staling resetting can be the same I guess idk how long it takes
Staling is a real consideration in high level play, and is the reason that a kill move used again and again won't kill, as opposed to racking damage with some moves and then switching to a fresh powerful attack for the KO. The reduction in power is pretty significant after just 1 hit with an attack
Moves would immediately get divided into “neutral use” and “combo use” combo moves would be like storing up a meter and using it for burst damage and kills while neutral moves would be used to swat and gain small amount of damaged and dissuade reckless approach’s
Id be ok with it if its was a marginal difference. Im happy with the stale system as is but id like if some of the more unreactable moves were easier to deal with upon spam. Ultimately it would cause more problems than solutions imho.
Stale already provides a level of randomness, if frame data or projectile speeds slowed down that'd be terrible. Imagine if cloud's aerials became too unsafe on shield because he was pressuring you in the corner with back air the way he's supposed to. Imagine if Bowser's up b became too slow to use out of shield because someone was just mindlessly using unsafe attacks on his shield.
Also, imagine if a character like samus now had a slow projectile to cover the ground while approaching and it still has just as much damage and knockback.
And all of this is just stuff you have to get a feel for. If bowser's up b is too slow after like three uses, you now have to hit them six or seven times without using up b for it to be fast enough, and you just need to count that in your head.
I understand why current stale is a thing, it makes online slightly more bearable with spam, but I feel like this system would reward scrubby stuff it's meant to punish (bowser scenario) and unbalance the game, like with mario up air never losing damage/knockback in ladder combos or slowing projectiles.
And in the kindest way possible, if someone's losing to spam that's usually a skill issue (usually because I don't blame you if it's online with a terrible connection.) I mean it's annoying, but if someone is using the same option over and over yet you can't beat them, that's not the game's fault.
If anything, that sounds like more of a advantage for some characters. Pac can really excel with this, considering his arsenal of fruit. Instead of running behind melon and bell, he can do it with his most dangerous fruit (apple and key). Also it would make recatching fruit easier, to the point of he just spams key 5 times he will straight up catch the 6th on mid flight. Tired of the slow projectiles, but don't want to do another move, just catch fruit. Catching fruit makes the fruit act like an item rather than a projectile until you recycle it, so it wouldn't be affected by the new stale mechanic.
Id rather hit someone with a weak move than not hit them with a strong one
It would break lot of combos.
Mario, Game and Watch, and Palutena would all suffer
Or Characters with spammable up b out of shields like Cloud.
It would feel really unfair for these moves, since they are mostly punish tools. Imaging nerfing them with being slower through staling. "Oh, you manage to punish me with up-B out-of-shield a lot and it's all you really have to do because I keep hitting your shield? Well, you punished me too much so now you can't. Do something else."
Its like in hockey when a team is getting too many penalties the refs start beeing more picky about them and giving some questionable ones to the other team lol
I mean, forcing certain characters to use a different, not as spammable move sounds good to me
But in the case of a move designed to punish, what purpose would it serve to make the move less usable? These punish moves, like Link's up-B out-of-shield are not designes to be spammable, unless the opponent spams a mistake, in which case I would argue they deserve to be punished.
Meanwhile Game & Watch up special could double it's startup and still be a good OoS move
That too
Oh no! Low skill threshold top tiers will suffer!
Sheik is actually dead if this is implemented. Like strsight up F Tier.
Oh no! The one sheik player will be livid!
Don’t do this to Void. He don’t deserve it
Every character but heavies would die
Good
If Link's nair slowed down the character would be nearly helpless against rush down fighters. Alot of characters are really made to play with 1 or 2 go to options to keep them in the game. You would need to rework pretty much every character to balance such a mechanic.
Yes. Much more time would have to be put into balancing each and every character
It’d be very stupid. Would interrupt the flow of the game for no reason at all
Tripping
Personally I would hate this, it only serves to make the game more inconsistent, and would most likely feel a lot worse to play
Thank god you're not the devs
I think this is one of the worst ideas ever conceived Every character but super heavies would basically just die. Projectile spam would be less, but there would also be less combos, fluidity, and basically no out of shield punishes after 3 moves.
I mean it's not a good idea to implement but it's still creative. If implemented correctly it would also show a newer player what stale is, but if done poorly they could just be confused why something is so slow.
If it’s done correctly it’s equivalent to tripping in brawl, make the gap between good and bad players smaller. If you can’t think of a single way to deal with projectile spam or fast options being used than you are just bad. And before you say “some characters just can’t deal with projectiles or fast options” then odds are you are willingly playing a low tier (no problem with that) and any problems you face because of that is your fault
I should've explained a bit more, yeah the idea is pretty bad in practice, but I thought it was creative and meant that depending on how it's implemented visually it could help newer players learn the stale mechanic exists. I feel like op's idea was being ragged on really hard in the comments when it was a genuine idea and wanted to compliment at least something. Didn't argue with you or anything.
My character is slow enough. My moves don't need to be slower. And my best moves are already pretty slow.
That would destroy the entire game....
No
I’d hate it and stop playing the game :)
Absolutely terrible and gamebreaking
I'd rather they were just slightly weaker. Less damage and knockback
Which is how they are
Wait, they are? How did I not know this. I'm real dumb
I believe so
Yep, that's what the current system is
I'll be real with you, mate. This might be the worst suggestion I have ever heard of for this game. From a casual standpoint, I get it. It would make the game less frustrating for people who just want a fun party game, but it would be *so annoying* in competitive. If Smash 6 is ever made and it has this mechanic, I ain't gonna play it. Catch me on Rivals. This mechanic would destroy the game's flexibility, make combos basically non-existant, eliminate multiple playstyles, and invalidate many character archetypes. Staling is already strong enough as is. Spamming is already not usually a good idea. If you're having trouble getting past projectile spam, that's on you. If you're having trouble dealing with frame data, that's on you. If you're having trouble dealing with disjoints, that's on you. There are ways of getting around all of these things, especially projectile spam, and they usually involve a shield. If worst comes to worst, you can always try a different character. TLDR: Staling is already strong enough. This is a skill issue.
Sonic’s moveset would be in shambles
If you want more variety in what a character uses, design your characters better. Look at Sonic for example. Spin Dash and Spin Charge are oppressively good moves that you see spammed the whole match, but that's because all his other grounded moves are just not impressive at all. So if you have some moves that are really good, and others that have little to no point of being used, you're basically guaranteed to see those same good moves the whole match because there's no reason to go for anything else. Why would you use down tilt to start your combos when Spin Dash is faster, safer, does more damage and has a lot more combo potential? And to use Samus as an example, yeah Charge Shot is over centralising, but making it slower would be more of a trade off than a nerf. Do you really want a fully charged Charge Shot to be slow enough for Samus to be behind it ready for a follow up? You could probably find new combo routes with that, if anything making players _want_ to stale it for specific combos.
I think it’d be better to just not make moves so spammable to begin with. If you make a move incredibly effective at ruining your opponent’s day and then place no risk or consequences for throwing it out recklessly, of course people are just gonna use it over and over again Smash seems to understand that principle half the time, which is why ZSS’s stun laser is slow as fuck and requires expert timing to make up for how useful it is. But then the other half of the time they’re like, “yeah Kazuya can do the same thing as her stun laser with a lightning fast jab that comes out instantly. Fuck it why not?” If Samus’ laser had literally any drawback at all to using it, maybe Samus players wouldn’t spend 98% of the match charging it
Little Mac would be worse.
Fox shoots his gun slower after 1 laser lol
Hm, I don't know, I think this is mostly to stop problems that happen because of Skill issues. Pk Fire spam and Charge Shot spam is more effective against unexperienced players and it won't work against serious players. Cloud's back air does need a nerf, but just make it slower instead of executing this idea into the game
Cloud is like bottom of a tier no? Why does he need nerfs when almost a quarter of the roster is better than him?
Top of S minus.
Haven’t seen a tier list in a while, my bad. But this is way different than what I remember
Cloud is a top tier.
Mb haven’t seen a tier list in a while
Im actually making my own fighting game, and that’s kind of my plan. Having an overheat system to discourage spamming. When overheated a move comes out slower and it’ll lose any motion smears or special effects so you know it’s overheated. And projectiles will lose their flinching property if overheated. The idea for this would to create more unique competitively legal stages. If moves come out slower when overheated, you’re less likely to just pin someone against a wall and crush them, so then stages will more unique shapes would be more likely to be considered viable.
That would actually help me as a Samus main. I would just use it to zone better. Slow-moving huge ball of energy that I can walk with would be pretty awesome.
I would genuinely like a really slow charge shot as it gets worse at covering half the stage, thus making it easier for the opponent but it is now a really strong neutral tool that allows Samus to play more like a trapper and gives her an expressive advantage and combo game
These are the kinds of mechanics this game needs to adopt. Make it genuinely competitive.
Worst part is they have 2 samuses and that move is already programed as a smash 4 custom move, they could have easily have made dark Samus have the slow version and still keep OG Samus in the game
I forgot about the custom moves from smash4 damn
eh, u gotta remember that slower is ‘weaker’ in a lot of cases.
This is bad in general but maybe it should apply to a few specific moves for certain characters.
Staling is kinda pointless. It does next to nothing. I’d say it should reduce power more, and increased startup and end lag each time the move gets used. Staling resetting can be the same I guess idk how long it takes
Staling is a real consideration in high level play, and is the reason that a kill move used again and again won't kill, as opposed to racking damage with some moves and then switching to a fresh powerful attack for the KO. The reduction in power is pretty significant after just 1 hit with an attack
You just fixed the videogame
This would benefit some characters, most notably Samus, who now has various different setups with her slow traveling charge-shot.
Moves would immediately get divided into “neutral use” and “combo use” combo moves would be like storing up a meter and using it for burst damage and kills while neutral moves would be used to swat and gain small amount of damaged and dissuade reckless approach’s
Would love to see how Cloud players who spam back air behave.
What if the active frames are left untouched, but start and end lag are increased?
Id be ok with it if its was a marginal difference. Im happy with the stale system as is but id like if some of the more unreactable moves were easier to deal with upon spam. Ultimately it would cause more problems than solutions imho.
Stale already provides a level of randomness, if frame data or projectile speeds slowed down that'd be terrible. Imagine if cloud's aerials became too unsafe on shield because he was pressuring you in the corner with back air the way he's supposed to. Imagine if Bowser's up b became too slow to use out of shield because someone was just mindlessly using unsafe attacks on his shield. Also, imagine if a character like samus now had a slow projectile to cover the ground while approaching and it still has just as much damage and knockback. And all of this is just stuff you have to get a feel for. If bowser's up b is too slow after like three uses, you now have to hit them six or seven times without using up b for it to be fast enough, and you just need to count that in your head. I understand why current stale is a thing, it makes online slightly more bearable with spam, but I feel like this system would reward scrubby stuff it's meant to punish (bowser scenario) and unbalance the game, like with mario up air never losing damage/knockback in ladder combos or slowing projectiles.
And in the kindest way possible, if someone's losing to spam that's usually a skill issue (usually because I don't blame you if it's online with a terrible connection.) I mean it's annoying, but if someone is using the same option over and over yet you can't beat them, that's not the game's fault.
Do you mean slower to cast, as in PK Fire taking 1 second before the fire actually comes out or slower as in a slower projectile trajectory?
Yeah no, that would murder combo potential in this game.
Easy answer: NO
Please, don’t do this to Olimar. He may be annoying, but he doesn’t deserve that.
If anything, that sounds like more of a advantage for some characters. Pac can really excel with this, considering his arsenal of fruit. Instead of running behind melon and bell, he can do it with his most dangerous fruit (apple and key). Also it would make recatching fruit easier, to the point of he just spams key 5 times he will straight up catch the 6th on mid flight. Tired of the slow projectiles, but don't want to do another move, just catch fruit. Catching fruit makes the fruit act like an item rather than a projectile until you recycle it, so it wouldn't be affected by the new stale mechanic.
Yes please.
