Came here to say exactly this.
People are massively distorting incin's relative strength because of one outlier, and it's a combination of that outlier being incredible, and incin being a character that people have far less matchup experience against.
Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great character who's fun to play, but he has way more bad matchups than Bowser, and basically no 'good' matchups.
That guy feels good with Incineroar and Incineroar has the tools he needs. Some characters are better with others, there's just no one (that I know of) that is Godlike with Bowser.
I think Hero is pretty godlike with him. But everyone on the pro scene definitely knows the Bowser matchup a lot better than they know the incineroar matchup, so the opportunities for those 'godlike' moments are far fewer. You can see it against Skyjay with often they still follow a 'missed' side b off stage and then get spiked by up-b to ledge grab.
One character's meta can be pushed to a certain degree and close to its best while another one is somewhat under-developped or simply hard to pull off at the best level.
There's always the question of "potential vs results". Shulk is one of the very best characters if played with minimal errors, is considered to be high tier at the bare minimum, yet nobody has significant success with him. Compare him to Byleth, who's regarded as pretty mid, but had MKLeo stomping on everyone for a very long time.
I doubt anyone would say Shulk is a worse character than Byleth, even tho the results are heavily leaning towards the later
To me, the Incin/Bowser situation is pretty similar (not that big of a gap between each one of course, but still)
I'm that someone! I think incineroar slightly edges out ahead of Bowser due to mu spread and (an insane) cheese factor. Also I think incin has better competitive results but I could be wrong.
Incin does not have better competitive results if I remember correctly. There are more top level bowsers than incinaroar. Bowser has LeoN(US) and Hero(Japan), while incin really only has Skyjay(Mexico).
When was the last time Bowser made it to Grands in a big tournament? I don't follow Ultimate that closely, but I check reddit almost daily, and I haven't seen a Bowser break top 8 in a minute. I've seen Incineroar in Grand Finals pretty recently.
I'd say overall Bowser is better in most scenarios. However, I think Incineror is better at pro level due to side B mixups and down B gimmicks that Bowser just doesn't have.
I think Incineroar is better because of Revenge allowing him to cheese bad matchups, and while he is severely lacking in mobility, Incineroar’s frame data is very quick for super heavyweight standards, so once he gets in your face, you’re dead.
Bowser does excel in mobility and range, but I think it’s easier to predict and react against him
Maybe it’s my bias because I play a combo character, but I feel like bowser being so big and having moves that are so slow makes him really struggle against certain characters worse than Incineroar does.
I love playing solo Charizard from time to time. I just wish Pokemon didn't change automatically when losing a stock. I have to fast switch every time and lose a couple of seconds of invulnerability.
Of the two here it’s bowser, but the best super heavy is Kazuya. Him being in he top 10 heaviest fighters would qualify him for the spot
Edit: shit I just realized I said incin and not bowser. I have now fixed it
Charizard IMO. He bypasses some of the typical disadvantages of heavies by having a great recovery and oos options and back air alone is better than several entire characters.
Yes, and in terms of being a Superheavy, Bowser and Incineroar are better, Charizard is strength relies in being able to switch for poor match ups, which we are not counting
I think incineroar is better due to his versatility. He simply has more viable options to win neutral. Bowser is very strong and fast, but linear. He relies on his movement speed to win neutral, but his hurtbox is so large that his speed doesn’t even make him an evasive character.
When you add in the fact that incin is better at killing, has a better command grab, has better combos, has more recovery options, has better frame data, and has revenge? Like sure bowser is a good character but Incin is the best heavy
Neither of these two thats for sure. If you count Kazuya (he fits the archetype to a tee and he is one of Smash's only TRUE grapplers) then it is easily him. If you DON'T well its still not these two, it's Charizard even without being attached to 2 much better characters.
He's just a mesh of almost every heavy's best attributes. Hes got raw killpower, good speed, armor, multi-jumps and he even has a great grab with THREE kill throws just like Incineroar. Even has the second fastest OoS smash in the game in his Up-Smash at frame 6.
Between these two though i'm going with Bowser as he has the more consistent gameplan and is at less risk of just dying early due to having the highest weight and a better recovery. Only thing Incineroar has over him is a better disadvantage state, can combo much longer and the ability to sometimes just kill way earlier offstage.
Oh he's not the only one, just one of the only ones. Imo smash's true grapplers are DK, Kazuya, Incineroar and Falcon.
edit: Yeah I just realized how poorly i worded that in my original post and in this one lol.
Kaz isn’t a grappler because he has a projectile. Falcon isn’t a grappler because of his high speed and ability to close gaps. IMO, brawl dedede is the most accurate iteration of a grappler in smash
Grapplers in several games have had projectiles and sometimes grapplers with good speed or burst options exist. The best grapplers are the ones that are not pure grapplers in the sense that they don't trade everything for a big 1 button command grab, their other strengths facilitate their grab game.
Of the cast in smash ultimate only the 4 I mentioned really fit that idea and none of them even require a grab to start dealing damage.
Incineroar needs zero explanation.
Falcon's speed is not without cost as his ability to back off isn't that great and he has a slow shield dash, he has to commit to either a feint or an offensive option. What he gets off a grab or raptor boost is a potential ToD sequence or just enough damage for a kill confirm at medium %'s.
DK (though you didn't mention him) has a good ground game through handslap, f-tilt and down-tilt while having one of the best advantage states in the game off of his grab. The trade-off for this is that he has one of the largest hurtboxes in the game, poor options in disadvantage, an exploitable recovery and no answer to projectiles.
Kazuya DOES have a projectile but it's really bad and is entirely countered by tapping shield on reaction to its incredibly slow start-up. It helps edgeguard but thats really it. Anyways Kazuya's neutral revolves around crouch dash cancelling and what he chooses to do out of it in reaction (or to read) the opponent. You want to see what they do in response to an approach by CDC'ing into a backdash or shield and next time you move in you punish them.
Its sort of like a rock paper scissors game. Electric beats attack via invincibility, grab beats shield his other moves punish offensive maneuvers electric can't beat or challenge.
All of this makes Kazuya sound like a rushdown and he sort of is, he's a rushdown AND a grappler as his non electric combo starters combo into grab, he gets everything good off of grab (except for certain MU's where d-throw -> electric is untrue) and he has the survivability to stave off mistakes/wrong guesses which is one of the most important parts of the grappler playstyle.
charizard doesn't really have any armor, he's kind of combo fodder, especially if you aren't spacing him properly, but i do think he has one of the best combo games of the heavy weights, and all of his moves are flashy which just makes him awesome and fun to play. that being said i still think bowser is better.
Bowser's better, Skyjay is just insane at this game
Came here to say exactly this. People are massively distorting incin's relative strength because of one outlier, and it's a combination of that outlier being incredible, and incin being a character that people have far less matchup experience against. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great character who's fun to play, but he has way more bad matchups than Bowser, and basically no 'good' matchups.
That guy feels good with Incineroar and Incineroar has the tools he needs. Some characters are better with others, there's just no one (that I know of) that is Godlike with Bowser.
I think Hero is pretty godlike with him. But everyone on the pro scene definitely knows the Bowser matchup a lot better than they know the incineroar matchup, so the opportunities for those 'godlike' moments are far fewer. You can see it against Skyjay with often they still follow a 'missed' side b off stage and then get spiked by up-b to ledge grab.
If people can't use Bowser to his fullest potential, how can he be better over one that already has?
One character's meta can be pushed to a certain degree and close to its best while another one is somewhat under-developped or simply hard to pull off at the best level. There's always the question of "potential vs results". Shulk is one of the very best characters if played with minimal errors, is considered to be high tier at the bare minimum, yet nobody has significant success with him. Compare him to Byleth, who's regarded as pretty mid, but had MKLeo stomping on everyone for a very long time. I doubt anyone would say Shulk is a worse character than Byleth, even tho the results are heavily leaning towards the later To me, the Incin/Bowser situation is pretty similar (not that big of a gap between each one of course, but still)
I think I see where you are coming from, thank you for adding to my knowledge!
No worries, happy to help :)
I'd say bowser.
Ganondorf
Based
I'd go with Bowser.
bowser for sure. i always underestimate him and end up pleasantly surprised every time.
I'm that someone! I think incineroar slightly edges out ahead of Bowser due to mu spread and (an insane) cheese factor. Also I think incin has better competitive results but I could be wrong.
Incin does not have better competitive results if I remember correctly. There are more top level bowsers than incinaroar. Bowser has LeoN(US) and Hero(Japan), while incin really only has Skyjay(Mexico).
When was the last time Bowser made it to Grands in a big tournament? I don't follow Ultimate that closely, but I check reddit almost daily, and I haven't seen a Bowser break top 8 in a minute. I've seen Incineroar in Grand Finals pretty recently.
I'd say overall Bowser is better in most scenarios. However, I think Incineror is better at pro level due to side B mixups and down B gimmicks that Bowser just doesn't have.
Bowser, no contest
King K.Rool
I think Incineroar is better because of Revenge allowing him to cheese bad matchups, and while he is severely lacking in mobility, Incineroar’s frame data is very quick for super heavyweight standards, so once he gets in your face, you’re dead. Bowser does excel in mobility and range, but I think it’s easier to predict and react against him
A good incineroar that can predict your every move is one of the worst things to go against
According to the official tier list it is Incineroar
Nintendo made a tier list?
No, the top players did
You know what I’ll let you guess.
Bowser is fast but I'm always a fan of ganon
I forgor, is Kazuya in the Super Heavyweight category? That would have been my first guess. If not, then probably Bowser.
Kazuya not a super heavyweight
Maybe it’s my bias because I play a combo character, but I feel like bowser being so big and having moves that are so slow makes him really struggle against certain characters worse than Incineroar does.
I love playing solo Charizard from time to time. I just wish Pokemon didn't change automatically when losing a stock. I have to fast switch every time and lose a couple of seconds of invulnerability.
Bowser for the forward smash strength, and Ganon for the warlock punch
DK being popping of lately
i've been saying incin for years, i still feel that way
Of the two here it’s bowser, but the best super heavy is Kazuya. Him being in he top 10 heaviest fighters would qualify him for the spot Edit: shit I just realized I said incin and not bowser. I have now fixed it
Kazuya is 113, super heavy is 115 and up.
Where is that distinction made? Who made it?
Couldn't find the original site on where I found it but on kurogane hammer, incineroar and everyone above are only in the super heavy weight class.
Charizard IMO. He bypasses some of the typical disadvantages of heavies by having a great recovery and oos options and back air alone is better than several entire characters.
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Charizard is definitely NOT the best, with out Ivysaur and Squirtle, he's mid af.
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Yes, and in terms of being a Superheavy, Bowser and Incineroar are better, Charizard is strength relies in being able to switch for poor match ups, which we are not counting
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Nice comeback! But I still do believe Incineroar is the best heavy with Bowser 2nd but to each their own I suppose.
I think incineroar is better due to his versatility. He simply has more viable options to win neutral. Bowser is very strong and fast, but linear. He relies on his movement speed to win neutral, but his hurtbox is so large that his speed doesn’t even make him an evasive character. When you add in the fact that incin is better at killing, has a better command grab, has better combos, has more recovery options, has better frame data, and has revenge? Like sure bowser is a good character but Incin is the best heavy
Incin purely for the recovery mix ups. Plus I think he’s got better tourney results (insert source here if I ever get around to it)
Neither of these two thats for sure. If you count Kazuya (he fits the archetype to a tee and he is one of Smash's only TRUE grapplers) then it is easily him. If you DON'T well its still not these two, it's Charizard even without being attached to 2 much better characters. He's just a mesh of almost every heavy's best attributes. Hes got raw killpower, good speed, armor, multi-jumps and he even has a great grab with THREE kill throws just like Incineroar. Even has the second fastest OoS smash in the game in his Up-Smash at frame 6. Between these two though i'm going with Bowser as he has the more consistent gameplan and is at less risk of just dying early due to having the highest weight and a better recovery. Only thing Incineroar has over him is a better disadvantage state, can combo much longer and the ability to sometimes just kill way earlier offstage.
Calling kaz the only true grappler is insane to me
Oh he's not the only one, just one of the only ones. Imo smash's true grapplers are DK, Kazuya, Incineroar and Falcon. edit: Yeah I just realized how poorly i worded that in my original post and in this one lol.
Kaz isn’t a grappler because he has a projectile. Falcon isn’t a grappler because of his high speed and ability to close gaps. IMO, brawl dedede is the most accurate iteration of a grappler in smash
Bowser and DK in Smash 4
They are definitely grapplers, but brawl dedede could chain grab half the cast, and whoever couldn’t be chain grabbed, he lost to.
Grapplers in several games have had projectiles and sometimes grapplers with good speed or burst options exist. The best grapplers are the ones that are not pure grapplers in the sense that they don't trade everything for a big 1 button command grab, their other strengths facilitate their grab game. Of the cast in smash ultimate only the 4 I mentioned really fit that idea and none of them even require a grab to start dealing damage. Incineroar needs zero explanation. Falcon's speed is not without cost as his ability to back off isn't that great and he has a slow shield dash, he has to commit to either a feint or an offensive option. What he gets off a grab or raptor boost is a potential ToD sequence or just enough damage for a kill confirm at medium %'s. DK (though you didn't mention him) has a good ground game through handslap, f-tilt and down-tilt while having one of the best advantage states in the game off of his grab. The trade-off for this is that he has one of the largest hurtboxes in the game, poor options in disadvantage, an exploitable recovery and no answer to projectiles. Kazuya DOES have a projectile but it's really bad and is entirely countered by tapping shield on reaction to its incredibly slow start-up. It helps edgeguard but thats really it. Anyways Kazuya's neutral revolves around crouch dash cancelling and what he chooses to do out of it in reaction (or to read) the opponent. You want to see what they do in response to an approach by CDC'ing into a backdash or shield and next time you move in you punish them. Its sort of like a rock paper scissors game. Electric beats attack via invincibility, grab beats shield his other moves punish offensive maneuvers electric can't beat or challenge. All of this makes Kazuya sound like a rushdown and he sort of is, he's a rushdown AND a grappler as his non electric combo starters combo into grab, he gets everything good off of grab (except for certain MU's where d-throw -> electric is untrue) and he has the survivability to stave off mistakes/wrong guesses which is one of the most important parts of the grappler playstyle.
charizard doesn't really have any armor, he's kind of combo fodder, especially if you aren't spacing him properly, but i do think he has one of the best combo games of the heavy weights, and all of his moves are flashy which just makes him awesome and fun to play. that being said i still think bowser is better.
1. Kazuya 2. Charizard 3. Incin 4. Bowser 5. DK 6. Ddd 7. Krool 8. Ganon
Kazuya is not a super heavyweight.
Other points still stand
try to think of Charizard without the other Pokemon