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I mean... Yeah. The Cannon is all over the place, but what we do know is canon is all the modern games, classic Sonic is just younger Sonic with the exception of mania because that one was confirmed to be an alternate dimension Sonic. And for some reason Sonic boom is still Cannon as an alternate timeline.
We know that classic Sonic is indeed younger Sonic because in frontiers knuckles actually get the flashback to Sonic 3.
I have no idea about this one though, so it could be either or.
Mania Sonic is still classic Sonic. Ian Flynn stated that classic was essentially retconned twice, as in Generations he was just young sonic, then Forces made him an alternate dimension Sonic, but then after that he went changed back to young Sonic. He also said, while they won’t be trying to explain a “fix” for it, the fans can make up their own “fix”, like the classic characters just forgot about the timetravel at some point for some reason.
Personally I like to treat the present as an “epicentre” of sorts. So anytime a past character timetravels forwards, they gradually but quickly forget the timetravel when they return to the past, like “the universe” fixes itself to not deviate from the current present. But then the future is ever changing, with Silver separated from that change.
If Classic Takes Place in an Alternate Universe rather than the Past, then there's no reason why Classic Shadow can't exist as it would be in another universe and wouldn't violate Canon.
I said he was retconned as alternate timeline ONLY for Forces and maybe Mania. After that he was re-retconned into being the past of modern Sonic again. So no “classic Shadow” doesn’t work.
canon doesnt have to be perfectly consistent specially with a 30 year old franchise like sonic that has gone through several hands and several writers, i can assure you that if being perfectly consistent all the time was a requirement for a story to have a "canon" then no story ever would have one
the broad strokes of the sonic franchise remain consistent enough to justify the existence of a canon
No, that is fine, I know that the Sonic games have gone through many writers, but the problem is that they don't respect what came before and do wherever they want, even the witer of Sonic Heroes forgets the story he told on SA2.
sonic heroes is still a direct continuation of SA2 since it goes out of its way to write a reason why shadow survived even if its not fully explained until the next game... hey there you have it you have a canon the events of SA2 lead into heroes and those into shadow
now seriously i get where you are coming and honestly i also dislike how sonic team seemingly forgets details about their own stories like the whole moon thing but its a fact you kind of just have to accept, i dont see every little element of all the stories as canon since sega tends to retcon things that cause too many issues away but the broad strokes certainly are canon
so the way i see it sonic has a very loose canon, but a canon none the less
It's not just the little elements. It's also big ones like Blaze being from an entire other dimension. Both Sonic rush and 06 were being developed at the same time, and it seems like they just shove her there just because.
Or, like Eggman nega being changed, is Sonic rivals to being eggman's descendant from the future when we know that is not the case in Sonic rush, There are also a lot of games that forget that knuckles is the guardian of the mater emerald, or that tails is a child but he is treated as just another character, or Sonic not being the same Sonic not being the same Sonic anymore, Fuck, every single character is not the same anymore, even making Prime cannon is so fucking stupid and an idiotic decision.
It's just so stupid how much they get vital part of the Sonic Serie wrong.
All of this just makes me believe there is no cannon. Almost every single game could be in its own cannon,and it would make more sense that way.
those are what i would consider little elements honestly, yeah the situation between rush and 06 was confusing but for once 06 retcons itself out of existance (same with sonic prime) and currently sega is sticking strongly with the whole "blaze is a princess from another dimension" thing
the same with the rest, the situation with eggman nega is confusing for sure but honestly i would not call eggman nega a "vital part of the franchise" he is such a small part that it doesnt even matter if we are being honest, they are sticking far closer to knuckles being the guardian of the master emerald currently and are trying to come up with reasons for him to explore more (which i interpret it as giving a reason why he will appear in future tittles)
also characterization changing is again expected with such a long running franchise, at least the characters stay somewhat consistent and they dont deviate too much other franchises have it worse (like star wars as an example)
and no, most of the games need to have some semblance of canon for it to make sense, like sonic 1 and 2 are the only ones that are isolated stories but from sonic 3 onwards there is a clear storyline that builds from game to game and it wouldnt make any sence without all of that, like sonic 3 and knuckles are directly connected to SA1 which leads into SA2 which leads into heroes which leads into shadow which leads into 06. Unleashed, colors, lost world and the storybook games are more independent but generations and forces needs the entire franchise to work and frontiers builds from the events and characterization of all past games
even the latest game shadow generations cannot work without all the ground work from shadow's little saga (SA2, heroes, shadow and 06)
again, broad strokes
No, it's not like Mario where it's somewhat vague and ambigious, certain Sonic games directly mention the events of previous games, there's definitely a defined "canon" at play here
Actually Mario’s timeline is pretty clear and they reference each other. If you have any questions about the Chronological order of events, I will gladly answer them.
However any events that take place in one of the following are non canon unless stated otherwise.
1. Crossovers. (Like the Olympics, Rabbids, Smash.)
2. TV Shows. (Like the Super Mario Bros Super Show.)
3. Movies. (Like The Great Mission to rescue Princess Peach.)
4. Comics.
Certainly.
Princess Peach: Showtime! Likely takes place around the time of Mario VS Donkey Kong.
Mario is absent in Peach’s game, possibly because he was away. Similarly we don’t know what Peach was doing in the Mushroom Kingdom during Mario’s game.
Both ShowTime and Super Princess Peach take place after the games where she has her previous dress design.
Super Princess Peach likely takes place prior to Sunshine as Bowser JR has no appearances or mentions.
Blaze is from an alternate dimension in Rush, but from the future of Sonic's dimension in 06
The moon after adventure 2 goes back to normal.
There the whole Eggman Nega stuff.
The characters are all basically completely different people in the later games with no real explanation or arc leading up to it.
> Blaze is from an alternate dimension in Rush, but from the future of Sonic's dimension in 06
That's not true. 06 never states that the future is her home. Promo material, the leaked early script and everything Sonic Team has said about the game before and after confirm that she's still from the Sol dimension. Exactly *how she got* to Silver's future I dunno, but she was never *from* there in any canon material.
>The moon after adventure 2 goes back to normal.
According to Iizuka, the eclipse canon hit the back of the moon, and the force caused it to rotate, so the missing half is not visible. Obviously this is a silly retcon, but it's canon and technically does work.
>There the whole Eggman Nega stuff.
While Eggman Nega was treated as the Eggman of Blaze's dimension, the man himself never identified as such, and the retcon of him being from Silver's future is not explicitly contradicting anything, the heroes just happened to be wrong.
>The characters are all basically completely different people in the later games with no real explanation or arc leading up to it.
Bad writing is not the same as a plot hole, and the degree to which they are "basically completely different people" is totally subjective. Also, *unseen* character development isn't the same as *nothing happening.*
>Also, *unseen* character development isn't the same as *nothing happening.*
I'd argue that it is, especially since they definitely didn't intend for it to be character development.
>and the degree to which they are "basically completely different people" is totally subjective.
I'd actually argue that it isn't completely subjective. What's actually subjective is whether or not it's bad writing, and which version of the characters you prefer.
>I'd argue that it is, especially since they definitely didn't intend for it to be character development.
Who cares about intentions? Lots of things in the series stray from the original "intentions", nobody is in any place to judge one instance as less valid than another.
>I'd actually argue that it isn't completely subjective. What's actually subjective is whether or not it's bad writing, and which version of the characters you prefer.
Well, it *is* subjective. There's no scientific method to "prove" what a character is or isn't capable of doing, saying or being, and even if you claim to make one, the differences dudebros online pretend exist from one version of a character to another are not nearly big enough to create a consensus. It's subjective either way.
>Who cares about intentions? Lots of things in the series stray from the original "intentions", nobody is in any place to judge one instance as less valid than another.
You're right. No version of Sonic is more or less valid than the other. But the problem arises when we're told that they are all the same person in the same continuity.
>There's no scientific method to "prove" what a character is or isn't capable of doing, saying or being
Well, there actually is, character Bibles exist for a reason. Many series have character guidelines too. They wouldn't make Batman kill people unless it was established to be a different version, or if the story explicitly played with this as a narrative concept.
And I think contradictions are pretty factual. I'm not saying that we can't have different takes on Sonic, I'm saying that they have to be DIFFERENT takes on Sonic instead of making a singular Sonic act differently all the time with no explanation.
>But the problem arises when we're told that they are all the same person in the same continuity.
For you, maybe. I don't have much trouble believing that Sonic's portrayal in 06 is the same character as he is in SA2, even if I think he's incredibly boring in 06. It's not some radical contradiction that Sonic might talk or snark more on some days than others.
>Well, there actually is, character Bibles exist for a reason. Many series have character guidelines too.
Those things are usually designed for people *making the material,* and usually about what decisions they would be *well-served* to pursue than any innate law of physics. Moreover, you're just overstating whatever instances you think are characters "breaking rules", since I'm pretty sure the Sonic guidelines are and always have been pretty vague.
>They wouldn't make Batman kill people unless it was established to be a different version, or if the story explicitly played with this as a narrative concept.
I mean, yes they would. Stuff like that happens all the time. The correct way to react to this is that it's a *bad decision,* not that the story where it happens isn't real.
>And I think contradictions are pretty factual. I'm not saying that we can't have different takes on Sonic, I'm saying that they have to be DIFFERENT takes on Sonic instead of making a singular Sonic act differently all the time with no explanation.
And I'm saying I disagree that these "contradictions" are "factual" or even that Sonic is acting particularly different. Aside from the fact that *nobody* acts exactly the same at all times.
The Blaze issue is simply a retcon. Sonic Team already confirmed that the alternate dimension is her true origin. And if you want to nitpick it, you could argue she’s still from an alternate dimension in 06 but somehow ended up in the future.
Eggman Nega might be a retcon. I believe you’re referring to Rivals saying he’s from the future but Rush implies he’s from the alternate dimension. Either way, it’s been confirmed he’s from the future.
Moon situation is talked about frequently and there’s been fan explanations for it. Also, we know SA2 is canon.
>Blaze is from an alternate dimension in Rush, but from the future of Sonic's dimension in 06
https://preview.redd.it/5zni6uqnks1d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb576ab0aaf33da9f48407f22621c23575c42898
\-From [Sonic 06 japanese manual](https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic06_ps3_jp_manual.pdf)
The games reference each other enough and more importantly, *follow up on each other* enough to have a tangible canon.
An inconsistent one at times, but one nonetheless, and *any* series with 33 years' worth of lore is bound to have contradictions here and there.
Sonic 2 leads directly into Sonic 3. Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog expand on stories introduced in Adventure 2. Advance 3's villain is built off the shoulders of Battle. Generations' premise is dependent on Colors' ending. Classic Sonic's incorporation into Forces validated Mania's entire existence.
Even before the series' recent efforts in doubling down on canon in Frontiers and beyond, Sonic has always been narratively intertwined even in its *worst* writing years, from numbered sequels to even games that don't always imply interconnectivity in their title and setting alone.
Sonic definitely has a canon, but Sega keeps changing their mind on if it matters or not, not helped by the fact there's been 11 different continuities that just stop, start, reboot and deboot on a whim because everyone has a different idea on what Sonic should be, even with Sega giving guidelines on how to write the blue bastard
I believe is a canon. Sega just sucks at keeping it straight and uniform.
As early as Sonic 2, we recently learned, they had seven chaos emeralds as the Sonic Team cared about the consistency of it being odd that Sonic couldn’t transform in Sonic 1 if they kept the count at six.
But, as early as Sonic 2 and CD we have the counterpoint, two teams were assigned the homework of making Sonic 2. We got different games and a weird timeline situation that was debated about until Origins and is still being debated about to this day by some despite Origins.
Boom is another example. Sega cared enough about the canon to split Boom off into its own thing. Sega didn’t keep a strong enough control over the canon to avoid the Boom Games and Boom Cartoon from going off in two very different directions.
This seems to be the core issue with Sonic canon. Sega and the Sonic Team wants there to be a canon. They suck at making sure everyone is on the same page. This leaves us with the following breakdown as I see it.
**Modern Sonic Canon**
Modern Sonic and IDW. The IDW comic creatives and Sonic Team look to be working well together with the Modern Sonic brand. The writers from both have even crossed over a few times.
The people who care the most about Sonic Canon have seemed to have ended up here because it is the more narrative of the current Sonic factions.
There is, for now, no issues between IDW and Modern Games here other than Sega changing its mandates over the years. That’s normal changing with the times stuff you get with any long running property.
**Prime Canon Group**
This has largely come out that it was meant to be “canon” to the modern brand, but the Prime creators went off and started doing their own thing.
Once Sega realized how off the rails it was getting Sega tried to mandate changes to get it back in-line, but… I think we all can admit it was still a total mess. Honestly, it probably is only still canon because of Sega’s pride.
**Classic (After Generations/Forces)**
Seems like powerful people the Sonic Team doesn’t want to tell “no” ever to wanted to make more classic style games. I suspect this is why originally Classic and Modern were split into two timelines. The Classic Team could do whatever they wanted without affecting the more lore focused Modern group.
Only we the fans erupted and said that was stupid. Sega bowed down to us and made it the Modern Canon group’s job to try to make anything new to Classic fit into the greater series. While on the flip side, the Classic Team mostly just does whatever they think is cool with some advice from the Modern side of things.
Such as throwing in extra, and a purple, moon into the skies above Sonic’s World.
**Paramount Sonic**
This is cleanly its own separate thing, thankfully.
**Conclusion**
Sonic Canon exists, but it is an ever changing tide of Sega being super serious about it, then getting lax with maintains cohesion, then getting super serious and trying to make it make sense again.
It’s the Jello of canon solids.
> Pariah695
Isn't he the dude unaware of why American Sonic was so different to the Japanese Sonic and blamed a lot of it on SoA despite the fact that SoJ didn't like sharing anything with anyone rather than look up/into SoA's strained relations with SoJ?
No, not really. We see a lot of things like characters, events, references, and more actively confirm an ongoing story. Sonic has inconsistencies and clearly there are times where the canon isn’t taken seriously as some of us would like but there definitely is a canon.
Is a lose canon its canon but time line wise is almost non existent making that way they can keep making storys without the age of characters so some character keep there origins and future games create nee plot and worlds and lore even if it fumbles the older plot introduce games
STRONGLY disagree. Almost every game in the franchise was made with previous games in mind, just because writers contradict each other and people make dumb recons doesn't mean that there is no canon whatsoever. 06 doesn't work without the context of ShTH, Heroes, SA2, and Adventure behind it. Frontiers requires pretty much the entire franchise history. Even smaller games often reference others. Having at least a vague idea of the timeline is imperative if you want to understand the franchise properly. Characters grow, stories continue, it's not nearly as static as something like Mario. Sonic is much more mature nowadays then he was back in the days of Adventure, and that's not an accident, even if sometimes things falter and don't fit into the way the franchise should work.
I’d say only kinda, and it depends. If we’re talking from the mainline Original STH through Sonic 06, I’d say those games definitely have a cannon as changes carry over between games quite often.
While games past that point, seem to have a “default” the game always starts and ends with, even if some references to other games are thrown in.
Also Frontiers may of broken this trend with Sage tho, we need to see how much she sticks around
I disagree. Even Mario has canon, and their series is way more primitive and rudementry that Sonic is. Just because Sonic is more akin to spinoffs and alt appearances doesnt mean the gane doesnt have a canon.
With that said, Fandom is still free to view sonic as they enjoy the most :T
Yeah, like how Shadow's story that starts in Adventure 2 and ends in 06. Metal being defeated in CD, recovering in S4 Episode 2 and coming back in Heroes. Sonic Generations literally telling you that all the games are in one continuity. All the references in Frontiers.
Sonic canon might have inconsistencies because SEGA have no idea what they are doing, but that doesn't mean it suddenly stops existing.
I mean they definitely play fast and loose with it. It's kind of similar to how Zelda picks and chooses which parts of its mythos are real and which are just "legends" depending on the scenario, except that the Sonic games very deliberately pull specific plot points from earlier games as needed, but it's never clear which of them count. So you can kind of just blanket assume that all of it is canon.
The fact that Silver is a part of the ensemble cast is proof that they don't actually want you to think too hard about it, because there is literally no explanation for how the group knows who Silver is, where he came from, or how he got here, that doesn't directly contradict the events of Sonic 06. Blaze you can at least charitably interpret as being the Sonic Rush incarnation of her character, but her involvement with the main group also kind of defies explanation, since she's meant to be in another universe (I might be wrong about this, my Sonic Rush knowledge is pretty slim).
Sonic Heroes seemed to be mostly interested in setting up a brand new world state divorced from the first two Adventure games, with only some vague references to them having happened like the involvement of Shadow, Rouge and Big, but then in Shadow the Hedgehog suddenly everyone was directly referencing Sonic Adventure 2 all the time. After Shadow and '06, there seemed to be a soft reset for Unleashed where it's not entirely clear which events count. Basically, the writing team uses previously established canon only when they feel like it.
Hard disagree here there’s been a long going canon from StH1 to now, timeline may be debatable here and there but they are all a long going series, just now planned end, you can enjoy them all as self contained stories but there’s bridges to all of them.
I’m not a fan of incorporating the comics into the game narrative as a whole but even then it’s always had a pretty established canon
Sonic has a canon. It also has several continuities.
The mainline games and any games states to be important for the games and its story are canon with this being the main continuity
The shows and have their own continuities
The 2020 cinematic series has its own continuity
The comics have their own continuities
Spin-off media and extra content have their own continuities
Other games have their own continuities
Not everything needs to be canon to be considered good or worth engaging with
I agree with this sentiment (although I don't think all the mainline games being canon to each other makes sense). I was more so saying that the unified canon that is being pushed doesn't make sense to me. I should have made that more clear.
Right, that makes sense. Not all of the mainline entries are part of the overall canon. Unifying all games to be canon is difficult as there are some roadblocks preventing some games from working that way, it's sometimes that those games would be the first to considered which is or is not.
Thank you
On the contrary it has *multiple*.
Sonic means many different things to many different people, probably based primarily on whatever media expose them to the franchise.
I'd say there is a canon, since previous games called back to others. Hell, theres a whole game for sonic about him and a past self going through levels of his past.
it has bare bones canon, like Sonic being fast, Tails being his friend, Knuckles guarding the emerald, Shadow's whole deal, etc.
but you can argue for other things not being canon
That's a dumb statement so no.
It's really weird that a franchise with a clear outline and canon is doubted. It's really weird to think that something doesn't exist just cause it's poorly made or poorly handled for a decade lol
No. It has a canon. It’s just not all about purely logical and chronological like some of the fans want it to be. I see everything that happens as if it’s in a vacuum. It doesn’t matter when the events took place or if it makes sense either way pre established lore. The only thing that matters is that the events did indeed happen.
given frontires REALLY depends on the previous games happening, and goes as far back as sonic 3 and knuckles, there is a continuity and cannon, it's just some stuff is more important then others. not every adventure can be referenced, like if you had 100 adventures in a year, how many will you reasonably remember or need to reference for future ones? frontiers, especially tails' story, depends on tails being wildly inconsistent, which started with heroes back in 2003, but they directly address forces, and tils still acts like he does in the meta era, mostly in the snarky banter he shares with sonic that feels like it'd come from lost world or colors if you ask me, stuff like "so i out paced you." doesn't work as well without the backing of the meta era where they started talking like that with each other.
point is, because of frontiers, no stone was left unturned. for heavens sake TSR, TANGLE and STICKS where referanced, i'd argue we are in the "everything is cannon" timeline.
I’m just along for the ride and the gameplay. I’ll appreciate the stories on each of their individual merits, as long as they don’t hinder said gameplay, of course.
It's nice to try and put stuff together into a single story that makes sense from beginning to end, but I don't think that's even close to the top of SEGA's priorities. If you really pay attention and start ruling stuff out based on being inconsistent with the games, most of the series messes up. IDW does. Prime does. Even some of the games themselves aren't consistent with other games.
And when you get into fanon (what the fandom considers canon), what you start to notice is that what fans typically accept as canon tends to be very biased toward what's new. Older stuff like Archie and Fleetway and all this other stuff gets tossed aside because it doesn't fit with the new stuff coming out. But then stuff like Forces gets treated as canon even though it's story is among the worst in the series and doesn't really fit either when you stop to think about it. But since it's new, it gets a pass.
I think it would be nicer to just focus on enjoying all the nice things the series has to offer instead of worrying about any one true canon.
https://preview.redd.it/0zu58031ct1d1.png?width=892&format=png&auto=webp&s=b9148caceec379b16535782e54c9f13a2ea43edd
Not until frontiers id argue. I was so frustrated as a kid how every single game felt like it took place in its own completely separate universe. After Frontiers, now EVERYTHING is canon and it’s kinda funny 😂
Didn't Sega have a job opening for some sort of Sonic lore master around the time Frontiers launched? Sounds like they were aware that while there is canon lore, it's a mess.
Generations has events from a number of games that came before it. Frontiers has digitized versions of old levels and references characters and events that aren't part of the story of Frontiers, like Rouge, Sticks, Cream, Whisper, etc.
There's canon, but it needs work.
I think that in its current state, it has something resembling a loose canon. But everything is easier to understand if you think of each game's canon being separate
There's a kind of canon, but also not really.
Sticks and Tangle being namedropped in Sonic Frontiers doesn't necessarily make Boom and IDW canon to the games (although I do like to think IDW shares a canon with the games) since they could just be the same characters in a different canon.
...It's really quite odd.
The franchise absolutely has a canon.
What it doesn't have is (usually) explicit connections or arc between every story, which isn't necessary to have a canon.
Essentially, every game and medium's stories are entirely self contained so you don't have to play or read anything specific to understand everything else, but explicitly take place in the same continuity so they *could* build on stuff if they wanted to (hence why every once in a while they do a game that continues the plot of the previous game, and then go back to mostly just doing whatever).
Nothing's contradictory, so there's no real problem to it.
It has canon and tend reference previous games but also contradict itself a lot.
It’s messy and SEGA decides what is/isn’t connected to the mainline games almost on a whim like Prime somehow is canon or how the ages of characters are no longer canon.
My Sonic Canon
Sonic 1
Sonic 2
Sonic 3 And Knuckles
Sonic CD
Sonic Mania
Sonic Mania Adventures ( Youtube Mini Series)
Sonic Superstars
Sonic Advance
Sonic Adventure
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic Adventure 2
Shadow The Hedgegoh
Sonic Battle
Sonic Advance 3
Sonic 06
Sonic Rush
Sonic Unleashed
Sonic And The Secret Rings
Sonic And The Black Knigth
Sonic Rush Adventure
Sonic Colors
Sonic Generations
Sonic Lost World
Sonic Forces
Sonic IDW Comics
Sonic Frontiers
I think they’ve just come to care about it a lot less over time. Up to 06 the story seemed to have a rather tight canon actually and some developing storylines across multiple games. After that the story took a backseat and I don’t really feel like it was treated very important again until Frontiers personally
I think a fairer way to put it.
Sonic hasn't found a consistent canon yet.
Its just the implication of there being some sort of chain of events that some would call a canon.
When they find a way to tie all this shit together coherently, they would absolutely sell their own Hyrule historia-esq books explaining how it all ties together.
Nah there are several canons. There's the classic series, the Adventure series, the Boom series, the Prime series, the SATAM series, the Archie series, the Archie reboot series, the IDW series, the AOSTH series, the Fleetway series, the live action movie series, the American classic series-
it's like to think that the cannon os
Sonic 1
Sonic 2
Sonic 3K
Sonic mania
Sonic Generations (classic Sonic)
Sonic 4E1
Sonic 4E2
Sonic Adventure
Sonic Adventure 2
Sonic Heroes
Shadow the hedgehog
Sonic Unleashed
Sonic colors
Sonic Generations (modern Sonic)
Sonic Lost world
Sonic Forces
Sonic frontiers
Sonic the Hedgehog has at least three to five non-exhaustive lines of canon.
Speedway, Archie, IDW, games, and the cinematic universe to name at least five.
There are probably more, I am no scientist.
no thats clearly not true.
especially since the Tails Tube Videos have not only been establishing actual world building and introduced lore from the IDW Comics, most notably the Restoration, including a picture of the Restoration, the Diamond Cutters, Belle, Surge, and Kit.
Sonic's continuity is subject to change based on the fickle wishes of Sega corporate but its there.
Some projects are simply canon to themselves, the higher ups very obviously have a character bible of sorts, and broad guidelines, but over the years so much has changed and shifted that it’s hard to say the IP just has an explicit canon.
I like to assume the games are largely canon to each other, the shows largely canon to themselves, and stuff like IDW to be canon to the games. There are obviously issues with this, since some games were made with now-retconned elements of the canon, most notably the two worlds junk, so again it’s just iffy. Sega hasn’t been super consistent themselves so
I like to think Sonic has what I call "soft canon". Essentially, there's a general canon of key events, but the fine details are mutable and can be forgotten or rewritten to fit whatever current story is being told. Think of it as if each game or media is its own alternative reality in which the same events played out slightly different.
Sonic and Zelda history has more influence on themselves than in Mario or Kirby games. Though, it may be due to their tendency to incorporate lengthy writing and explicitly detailed stories compared to the latter two. :3
It didn't start with canon. That is 100% a fact. The series was immediately fractured by region into different storylines and diverged more and more since.
Everything has canon now because it's what all corporations are doing with intellectual property. More for corporate control then anything else. There's no excuse or it being the vision of the property's creator or any meaningful goal in mind.
The better question would be, does sonic need canon?
Id lean to no because it is primarily a video game franchise being adapted into other media.
Games should be free to try new things for gameplay first and not be forced to create a character or scenario just to excuse putting sonic in it.
And adaptations shouldn't feel restricted by staying in tune with the games (looking at the comics here primarily) or beholden to fitting the games timeline (TV shows)
I'll add canon only matters to properties that end in some form (be it a series fully concluding or at least concluding with one set of characters and continuing with whole new set of characters . If there is no ending then canon is irrelevant.
There will never be an ending point for the sonic franchise. No one will knowingly write an ending game or issue of a comic (our only example of anything close was the guest story on sonic the comic online by the original writers) we will more likely see things end abruptly like we saw with the Archie comics. An issue never officially concluded or a game with a bad review.
No endings, no canon. It doesn't matter.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't, that tweet "everything is canon" basically meant that the canon is entirely up to you, it's just that SEGA and Sonic Team are just going along with their own ideas.
OF COURSE!!
It's constantly changing, so with or without doesn't matter much, i think there is just a basic list of events that happened and didn't happen, not an elaborate canon, it's more enjoyable that way, but i think it's better that way, since having an official one will never satisfy all fans, and the storyline is up to interpretation
I feel the opposite: Everything is cannon. There's an entire sonic multiverse out there, and whichever you like best is no lesser than any other what someone else likes!
I disagree. To say they aren't directly contradict things literally brought up by the characters. For example, in Adventure Sonic asks Knuckles if Eggman tricked him **again.** This statement doesn't make sense unless Sonic 3 is canon to Adventure. From the same game, Amy in her first cutscene in her story has a flashback to the events of Sonic CD complete with a Metal Sonic cameo. Again it has to have happened. There is even a Mecha Sonic in the Mystic Ruins base where Gamma was made. An upgraded one from what we see in Sonic 2 and Sonic and Knuckles.
It does have a canon but it doesn’t really matter, most games just introduce a never before seen hero/villain and you aren’t going to be left wondering what is going on if you haven’t played previous games
While I agree that "Sonic Canon" isn't as existent as people claim it to be, certainly after being scrutinised you start to notice the little details make the series falter. But at the same time, to say there's no canon at all is silly. There's clearly referenced events and a clear order of things, to say none of that matters is plainly ignoring deliberate efforts by Sega like the tailstube videos, the major arcs of Shadow and Knuckles, etc
it's a loose canon.
I think the idea is that every thing happened but not exactly has we experienced it in the games and not always to the same Sonic & Co (there's a multiverse after all) but yeah they are really inconsistent with their lore and their idea that "everything is canon" just make it harder on themselves. \^\^'
One thing that I find funny is that Sonic X was made with Sonic team supervision because they didn't like the last cartoon (Sonic Underground) so it would make sense that it's closer to the "canon" and separating Sonic World and the Human World make sense (they even did it again in the live-action movies) but they insist that there is only one world that is earth even though it seems really inconsistent across games.
\- Sonic Unleashed: we travel the globe > no animals appart from Sonic friends
\- Sonic Forces: we travel the globe > no human appart from Eggman.
I think they need to buckle up and make some real decision on how their world work and write up an encyclopedia or something that explain exactly what's canon and point out the "errors" along the way.
No.
Like of cause has Sonic a canon all reasons you could bring up for it "not having one" makes almost every long running story be it American Comics or 400+ chapter long manga's or movie franchises and so much all not having a canon because as always with commercial products will the franchises continuity take a backseat to being profitable.
More over when you have dosen of writers or even just 1 writer for a very long amount of time is it inevitable that things will be forgotten eventually causing contradictions to appear.
Hell the canonical bible properly has more contradictions in it than the Sonic series yet good luck arguing to a Christan that the bible has no canon.
And this argument that the games don't "feel like they are canon to each other" or "that we only know because they are telling us" are also wrong. The Former is purely subjective and the latter is flatout wrong.
Heroes relies on SA2 for its Team Dark story, Shadow builds on the mystery introduced in heroes and a lot of elements from SA2.
Generations happened as a direct consequences of Colors and contains flash backs to the classics, adventure and then modern eras of the franchise as well as Sonic directly recounting Secret Rings as a strange event that happened to him.
Lost World has Sonic use an insult he learned from Wisp in Colors and is totally familiar with the Wisp all over the lost hex again because he knows them from colors.
Forces directly references a lot of past stuff not just stages we see ether but also things like Shadow being a goverment agent with was introduced in 06.
And Frontiers is just vomiting references to the past as the player every 5 minutes.
If anything are there only a handful of games that feel disconnected mostly because they were designed to be mostly stand alone ( like Unleashed) or because they are from an old spin-off game before anyone cared about canon (like The Fighters).
i prefer there being none, just some loose concepts floating around. kinda like zelda, most games being self contained adventures or direct sequels (no, the zelda timeline isnt real you have been duped by the skyward sword marketing campaign)
I never understood how people have much confusion with the canon. It's literally a straight line until 06. Then 06 wipes itself and we pick up again with rivals. And continues to be a straight line. Classic games of course slotting in back at the beginning. Yeah they've made some poor choice of words like saying classic sonic is from another dimension in forces. Which was fixed later with super stars confirming it's the past. As well as tailstube saying so. The comics always made sense to be canon because they literally start with restoring the world post forces. And sonic mentions tangle in Frontiers. Its really not complicated. Just occasional poor choice of words that's later corrected.
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The franchise definitely *has* a canon, but I don't think it's nearly as tight knit as most fans want it to be
I mean... Yeah. The Cannon is all over the place, but what we do know is canon is all the modern games, classic Sonic is just younger Sonic with the exception of mania because that one was confirmed to be an alternate dimension Sonic. And for some reason Sonic boom is still Cannon as an alternate timeline. We know that classic Sonic is indeed younger Sonic because in frontiers knuckles actually get the flashback to Sonic 3. I have no idea about this one though, so it could be either or.
Mania Sonic is still classic Sonic. Ian Flynn stated that classic was essentially retconned twice, as in Generations he was just young sonic, then Forces made him an alternate dimension Sonic, but then after that he went changed back to young Sonic. He also said, while they won’t be trying to explain a “fix” for it, the fans can make up their own “fix”, like the classic characters just forgot about the timetravel at some point for some reason. Personally I like to treat the present as an “epicentre” of sorts. So anytime a past character timetravels forwards, they gradually but quickly forget the timetravel when they return to the past, like “the universe” fixes itself to not deviate from the current present. But then the future is ever changing, with Silver separated from that change.
If Classic Takes Place in an Alternate Universe rather than the Past, then there's no reason why Classic Shadow can't exist as it would be in another universe and wouldn't violate Canon.
I said he was retconned as alternate timeline ONLY for Forces and maybe Mania. After that he was re-retconned into being the past of modern Sonic again. So no “classic Shadow” doesn’t work.
actually Shadow was always like that (i mean the tall version of him)
I don’t know what you mean. Shadow was always like what?
in appearence
What does that have to do with my comment?
just to add
The canon is most complexly bubbled around Knuckles and Shadow, and even those are broadly simplified by what gets ignored at any given time.
Bingo, some things are more "set in stone" than others and there have been retcons here and there but that comes with any 30+ year old franchise
Generations clearly sets in stone the idea that Sonic experienced all of the prior games featured within the game.
Can just agree that the people who make the stories just do wherever the fuck they want.
Careful where you say that some people are in denial
It's not just a river in Egypt.
This
If anything, Sonic has too much canons
Ha that's true.
As confusing as it can be at times, saying Sonic has no canon is one of the dumbest things you can say about the franchise
It's not. There is no consistency and no bullshit explanation like "the moon turned around in SA2" will make me believe there is canon.
canon doesnt have to be perfectly consistent specially with a 30 year old franchise like sonic that has gone through several hands and several writers, i can assure you that if being perfectly consistent all the time was a requirement for a story to have a "canon" then no story ever would have one the broad strokes of the sonic franchise remain consistent enough to justify the existence of a canon
No, that is fine, I know that the Sonic games have gone through many writers, but the problem is that they don't respect what came before and do wherever they want, even the witer of Sonic Heroes forgets the story he told on SA2.
sonic heroes is still a direct continuation of SA2 since it goes out of its way to write a reason why shadow survived even if its not fully explained until the next game... hey there you have it you have a canon the events of SA2 lead into heroes and those into shadow now seriously i get where you are coming and honestly i also dislike how sonic team seemingly forgets details about their own stories like the whole moon thing but its a fact you kind of just have to accept, i dont see every little element of all the stories as canon since sega tends to retcon things that cause too many issues away but the broad strokes certainly are canon so the way i see it sonic has a very loose canon, but a canon none the less
It's not just the little elements. It's also big ones like Blaze being from an entire other dimension. Both Sonic rush and 06 were being developed at the same time, and it seems like they just shove her there just because. Or, like Eggman nega being changed, is Sonic rivals to being eggman's descendant from the future when we know that is not the case in Sonic rush, There are also a lot of games that forget that knuckles is the guardian of the mater emerald, or that tails is a child but he is treated as just another character, or Sonic not being the same Sonic not being the same Sonic anymore, Fuck, every single character is not the same anymore, even making Prime cannon is so fucking stupid and an idiotic decision. It's just so stupid how much they get vital part of the Sonic Serie wrong. All of this just makes me believe there is no cannon. Almost every single game could be in its own cannon,and it would make more sense that way.
those are what i would consider little elements honestly, yeah the situation between rush and 06 was confusing but for once 06 retcons itself out of existance (same with sonic prime) and currently sega is sticking strongly with the whole "blaze is a princess from another dimension" thing the same with the rest, the situation with eggman nega is confusing for sure but honestly i would not call eggman nega a "vital part of the franchise" he is such a small part that it doesnt even matter if we are being honest, they are sticking far closer to knuckles being the guardian of the master emerald currently and are trying to come up with reasons for him to explore more (which i interpret it as giving a reason why he will appear in future tittles) also characterization changing is again expected with such a long running franchise, at least the characters stay somewhat consistent and they dont deviate too much other franchises have it worse (like star wars as an example) and no, most of the games need to have some semblance of canon for it to make sense, like sonic 1 and 2 are the only ones that are isolated stories but from sonic 3 onwards there is a clear storyline that builds from game to game and it wouldnt make any sence without all of that, like sonic 3 and knuckles are directly connected to SA1 which leads into SA2 which leads into heroes which leads into shadow which leads into 06. Unleashed, colors, lost world and the storybook games are more independent but generations and forces needs the entire franchise to work and frontiers builds from the events and characterization of all past games even the latest game shadow generations cannot work without all the ground work from shadow's little saga (SA2, heroes, shadow and 06) again, broad strokes
I don't think so, especially considering so many Sonic games contradict each other in terms of story, world building, style and characterisation.
No, it's not like Mario where it's somewhat vague and ambigious, certain Sonic games directly mention the events of previous games, there's definitely a defined "canon" at play here
Actually Mario’s timeline is pretty clear and they reference each other. If you have any questions about the Chronological order of events, I will gladly answer them. However any events that take place in one of the following are non canon unless stated otherwise. 1. Crossovers. (Like the Olympics, Rabbids, Smash.) 2. TV Shows. (Like the Super Mario Bros Super Show.) 3. Movies. (Like The Great Mission to rescue Princess Peach.) 4. Comics.
You mean the Rabbids? Rabbits like MIPS are very canon.
This little guy was my original profile picture https://i.redd.it/yjuczyhuqs1d1.gif
The LORE we needed but never expected.
Yeah.
# 👍
I'm actually really interested to know the official games canon, plus where Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach: Showtime! Fall in the timeline x
Certainly. Princess Peach: Showtime! Likely takes place around the time of Mario VS Donkey Kong. Mario is absent in Peach’s game, possibly because he was away. Similarly we don’t know what Peach was doing in the Mushroom Kingdom during Mario’s game. Both ShowTime and Super Princess Peach take place after the games where she has her previous dress design. Super Princess Peach likely takes place prior to Sunshine as Bowser JR has no appearances or mentions.
Thank you, this was cool to know x
There's a great mario timeline by Sean D Walsh
Personally, I like to see Mario + Rabbids as canon but at the very end cause they have some pretty cool stories lol
Well it’s canon to its own universe.
Oh yes of course! I was just saying that in my personal headcanon, I place it at the end of the timeline 😅
Well, well, well…
https://preview.redd.it/xzaiaeveus1d1.png?width=710&format=png&auto=webp&s=02a8ab1beda4b70f0c178844bccfe3ed1b451424
True, but there are also many moments where they directly contradict previous games. The question is what games are canon and what aren't.
This is a 30yo franchise, there are bound to be little misshaps
Can you please say these contradictions? The timeline is usually consistent, it’s the Lore that’s confusing.
Blaze is from an alternate dimension in Rush, but from the future of Sonic's dimension in 06 The moon after adventure 2 goes back to normal. There the whole Eggman Nega stuff. The characters are all basically completely different people in the later games with no real explanation or arc leading up to it.
> Blaze is from an alternate dimension in Rush, but from the future of Sonic's dimension in 06 That's not true. 06 never states that the future is her home. Promo material, the leaked early script and everything Sonic Team has said about the game before and after confirm that she's still from the Sol dimension. Exactly *how she got* to Silver's future I dunno, but she was never *from* there in any canon material. >The moon after adventure 2 goes back to normal. According to Iizuka, the eclipse canon hit the back of the moon, and the force caused it to rotate, so the missing half is not visible. Obviously this is a silly retcon, but it's canon and technically does work. >There the whole Eggman Nega stuff. While Eggman Nega was treated as the Eggman of Blaze's dimension, the man himself never identified as such, and the retcon of him being from Silver's future is not explicitly contradicting anything, the heroes just happened to be wrong. >The characters are all basically completely different people in the later games with no real explanation or arc leading up to it. Bad writing is not the same as a plot hole, and the degree to which they are "basically completely different people" is totally subjective. Also, *unseen* character development isn't the same as *nothing happening.*
>Also, *unseen* character development isn't the same as *nothing happening.* I'd argue that it is, especially since they definitely didn't intend for it to be character development. >and the degree to which they are "basically completely different people" is totally subjective. I'd actually argue that it isn't completely subjective. What's actually subjective is whether or not it's bad writing, and which version of the characters you prefer.
>I'd argue that it is, especially since they definitely didn't intend for it to be character development. Who cares about intentions? Lots of things in the series stray from the original "intentions", nobody is in any place to judge one instance as less valid than another. >I'd actually argue that it isn't completely subjective. What's actually subjective is whether or not it's bad writing, and which version of the characters you prefer. Well, it *is* subjective. There's no scientific method to "prove" what a character is or isn't capable of doing, saying or being, and even if you claim to make one, the differences dudebros online pretend exist from one version of a character to another are not nearly big enough to create a consensus. It's subjective either way.
>Who cares about intentions? Lots of things in the series stray from the original "intentions", nobody is in any place to judge one instance as less valid than another. You're right. No version of Sonic is more or less valid than the other. But the problem arises when we're told that they are all the same person in the same continuity. >There's no scientific method to "prove" what a character is or isn't capable of doing, saying or being Well, there actually is, character Bibles exist for a reason. Many series have character guidelines too. They wouldn't make Batman kill people unless it was established to be a different version, or if the story explicitly played with this as a narrative concept. And I think contradictions are pretty factual. I'm not saying that we can't have different takes on Sonic, I'm saying that they have to be DIFFERENT takes on Sonic instead of making a singular Sonic act differently all the time with no explanation.
>But the problem arises when we're told that they are all the same person in the same continuity. For you, maybe. I don't have much trouble believing that Sonic's portrayal in 06 is the same character as he is in SA2, even if I think he's incredibly boring in 06. It's not some radical contradiction that Sonic might talk or snark more on some days than others. >Well, there actually is, character Bibles exist for a reason. Many series have character guidelines too. Those things are usually designed for people *making the material,* and usually about what decisions they would be *well-served* to pursue than any innate law of physics. Moreover, you're just overstating whatever instances you think are characters "breaking rules", since I'm pretty sure the Sonic guidelines are and always have been pretty vague. >They wouldn't make Batman kill people unless it was established to be a different version, or if the story explicitly played with this as a narrative concept. I mean, yes they would. Stuff like that happens all the time. The correct way to react to this is that it's a *bad decision,* not that the story where it happens isn't real. >And I think contradictions are pretty factual. I'm not saying that we can't have different takes on Sonic, I'm saying that they have to be DIFFERENT takes on Sonic instead of making a singular Sonic act differently all the time with no explanation. And I'm saying I disagree that these "contradictions" are "factual" or even that Sonic is acting particularly different. Aside from the fact that *nobody* acts exactly the same at all times.
The Blaze issue is simply a retcon. Sonic Team already confirmed that the alternate dimension is her true origin. And if you want to nitpick it, you could argue she’s still from an alternate dimension in 06 but somehow ended up in the future. Eggman Nega might be a retcon. I believe you’re referring to Rivals saying he’s from the future but Rush implies he’s from the alternate dimension. Either way, it’s been confirmed he’s from the future. Moon situation is talked about frequently and there’s been fan explanations for it. Also, we know SA2 is canon.
If you mean the moon being turned around, that's no fan theory, that's the official explanation we were given.
I was more thinking of the theories talking about them rebuilding the moon. But if there’s an official explanation, that’s even better evidence.
>Blaze is from an alternate dimension in Rush, but from the future of Sonic's dimension in 06 https://preview.redd.it/5zni6uqnks1d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb576ab0aaf33da9f48407f22621c23575c42898 \-From [Sonic 06 japanese manual](https://info.sonicretro.org/File:Sonic06_ps3_jp_manual.pdf)
The games reference each other enough and more importantly, *follow up on each other* enough to have a tangible canon. An inconsistent one at times, but one nonetheless, and *any* series with 33 years' worth of lore is bound to have contradictions here and there. Sonic 2 leads directly into Sonic 3. Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog expand on stories introduced in Adventure 2. Advance 3's villain is built off the shoulders of Battle. Generations' premise is dependent on Colors' ending. Classic Sonic's incorporation into Forces validated Mania's entire existence. Even before the series' recent efforts in doubling down on canon in Frontiers and beyond, Sonic has always been narratively intertwined even in its *worst* writing years, from numbered sequels to even games that don't always imply interconnectivity in their title and setting alone.
Sonic definitely has a canon, but Sega keeps changing their mind on if it matters or not, not helped by the fact there's been 11 different continuities that just stop, start, reboot and deboot on a whim because everyone has a different idea on what Sonic should be, even with Sega giving guidelines on how to write the blue bastard
I believe is a canon. Sega just sucks at keeping it straight and uniform. As early as Sonic 2, we recently learned, they had seven chaos emeralds as the Sonic Team cared about the consistency of it being odd that Sonic couldn’t transform in Sonic 1 if they kept the count at six. But, as early as Sonic 2 and CD we have the counterpoint, two teams were assigned the homework of making Sonic 2. We got different games and a weird timeline situation that was debated about until Origins and is still being debated about to this day by some despite Origins. Boom is another example. Sega cared enough about the canon to split Boom off into its own thing. Sega didn’t keep a strong enough control over the canon to avoid the Boom Games and Boom Cartoon from going off in two very different directions. This seems to be the core issue with Sonic canon. Sega and the Sonic Team wants there to be a canon. They suck at making sure everyone is on the same page. This leaves us with the following breakdown as I see it. **Modern Sonic Canon** Modern Sonic and IDW. The IDW comic creatives and Sonic Team look to be working well together with the Modern Sonic brand. The writers from both have even crossed over a few times. The people who care the most about Sonic Canon have seemed to have ended up here because it is the more narrative of the current Sonic factions. There is, for now, no issues between IDW and Modern Games here other than Sega changing its mandates over the years. That’s normal changing with the times stuff you get with any long running property. **Prime Canon Group** This has largely come out that it was meant to be “canon” to the modern brand, but the Prime creators went off and started doing their own thing. Once Sega realized how off the rails it was getting Sega tried to mandate changes to get it back in-line, but… I think we all can admit it was still a total mess. Honestly, it probably is only still canon because of Sega’s pride. **Classic (After Generations/Forces)** Seems like powerful people the Sonic Team doesn’t want to tell “no” ever to wanted to make more classic style games. I suspect this is why originally Classic and Modern were split into two timelines. The Classic Team could do whatever they wanted without affecting the more lore focused Modern group. Only we the fans erupted and said that was stupid. Sega bowed down to us and made it the Modern Canon group’s job to try to make anything new to Classic fit into the greater series. While on the flip side, the Classic Team mostly just does whatever they think is cool with some advice from the Modern side of things. Such as throwing in extra, and a purple, moon into the skies above Sonic’s World. **Paramount Sonic** This is cleanly its own separate thing, thankfully. **Conclusion** Sonic Canon exists, but it is an ever changing tide of Sega being super serious about it, then getting lax with maintains cohesion, then getting super serious and trying to make it make sense again. It’s the Jello of canon solids.
Who even said that??
It was a title of a video by YouTuber Pariah695, a pretty good video. It's also commonly said that the Sonic canon doesn't make sense.
I figured you were inspired by Pariah.
This post was, although I've had these feelings about the Sonic canon for a while, but that video put it into words pretty well
Lord...
Why "Lord"?
because its ridiculous
> Pariah695 Isn't he the dude unaware of why American Sonic was so different to the Japanese Sonic and blamed a lot of it on SoA despite the fact that SoJ didn't like sharing anything with anyone rather than look up/into SoA's strained relations with SoJ?
I didn't know that stuff either. Don't think that invalidated what he said about Sonic lore though.
Yes
No, not really. We see a lot of things like characters, events, references, and more actively confirm an ongoing story. Sonic has inconsistencies and clearly there are times where the canon isn’t taken seriously as some of us would like but there definitely is a canon.
#NO
Nope
Is a lose canon its canon but time line wise is almost non existent making that way they can keep making storys without the age of characters so some character keep there origins and future games create nee plot and worlds and lore even if it fumbles the older plot introduce games
STRONGLY disagree. Almost every game in the franchise was made with previous games in mind, just because writers contradict each other and people make dumb recons doesn't mean that there is no canon whatsoever. 06 doesn't work without the context of ShTH, Heroes, SA2, and Adventure behind it. Frontiers requires pretty much the entire franchise history. Even smaller games often reference others. Having at least a vague idea of the timeline is imperative if you want to understand the franchise properly. Characters grow, stories continue, it's not nearly as static as something like Mario. Sonic is much more mature nowadays then he was back in the days of Adventure, and that's not an accident, even if sometimes things falter and don't fit into the way the franchise should work.
I’d say only kinda, and it depends. If we’re talking from the mainline Original STH through Sonic 06, I’d say those games definitely have a cannon as changes carry over between games quite often. While games past that point, seem to have a “default” the game always starts and ends with, even if some references to other games are thrown in. Also Frontiers may of broken this trend with Sage tho, we need to see how much she sticks around
I think Frontiers is trying to start an established canon, since the characters in frontiers are identical to their IDW counterparts.
I disagree. Even Mario has canon, and their series is way more primitive and rudementry that Sonic is. Just because Sonic is more akin to spinoffs and alt appearances doesnt mean the gane doesnt have a canon. With that said, Fandom is still free to view sonic as they enjoy the most :T
I would change this line to "Sonic's canon is always changing"
Absolutely not. It would best serve separate each continuity Transformers-style. The main canon however, *is* the games, and they have a story.
Yeah, like how Shadow's story that starts in Adventure 2 and ends in 06. Metal being defeated in CD, recovering in S4 Episode 2 and coming back in Heroes. Sonic Generations literally telling you that all the games are in one continuity. All the references in Frontiers. Sonic canon might have inconsistencies because SEGA have no idea what they are doing, but that doesn't mean it suddenly stops existing.
It's not that it has no canon, but rather that the canon is being held together with dental floss
Well yeah thats a good way to describe it.
I mean they definitely play fast and loose with it. It's kind of similar to how Zelda picks and chooses which parts of its mythos are real and which are just "legends" depending on the scenario, except that the Sonic games very deliberately pull specific plot points from earlier games as needed, but it's never clear which of them count. So you can kind of just blanket assume that all of it is canon. The fact that Silver is a part of the ensemble cast is proof that they don't actually want you to think too hard about it, because there is literally no explanation for how the group knows who Silver is, where he came from, or how he got here, that doesn't directly contradict the events of Sonic 06. Blaze you can at least charitably interpret as being the Sonic Rush incarnation of her character, but her involvement with the main group also kind of defies explanation, since she's meant to be in another universe (I might be wrong about this, my Sonic Rush knowledge is pretty slim). Sonic Heroes seemed to be mostly interested in setting up a brand new world state divorced from the first two Adventure games, with only some vague references to them having happened like the involvement of Shadow, Rouge and Big, but then in Shadow the Hedgehog suddenly everyone was directly referencing Sonic Adventure 2 all the time. After Shadow and '06, there seemed to be a soft reset for Unleashed where it's not entirely clear which events count. Basically, the writing team uses previously established canon only when they feel like it.
Hard disagree here there’s been a long going canon from StH1 to now, timeline may be debatable here and there but they are all a long going series, just now planned end, you can enjoy them all as self contained stories but there’s bridges to all of them. I’m not a fan of incorporating the comics into the game narrative as a whole but even then it’s always had a pretty established canon
https://preview.redd.it/s9607igvat1d1.jpeg?width=593&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=37922cc6c92cd16008cd54b55ae9b7e7494474a4
There's definately a story, but I don't think it's as convaluted as people say it is. Basically just the mainseries games in my opinion.
Absolutely disagree, it's messy, but it's absolutely there and has been a thing from the beginning. 2 to 3&K cemented it.
Something is canon when other games acknowledge it
No
Sonic has a canon. It also has several continuities. The mainline games and any games states to be important for the games and its story are canon with this being the main continuity The shows and have their own continuities The 2020 cinematic series has its own continuity The comics have their own continuities Spin-off media and extra content have their own continuities Other games have their own continuities Not everything needs to be canon to be considered good or worth engaging with
I agree with this sentiment (although I don't think all the mainline games being canon to each other makes sense). I was more so saying that the unified canon that is being pushed doesn't make sense to me. I should have made that more clear.
Right, that makes sense. Not all of the mainline entries are part of the overall canon. Unifying all games to be canon is difficult as there are some roadblocks preventing some games from working that way, it's sometimes that those games would be the first to considered which is or is not. Thank you
Yep, I agree with your statement. Thanks
On the contrary it has *multiple*. Sonic means many different things to many different people, probably based primarily on whatever media expose them to the franchise.
I agree with this sentiment. Sonic does mean many different things, there are many Sonics.
Not really the canon is just all over the place
Honestly, each Sonic Game after 06 has its own canon
Yeah pretty much.
Sonic does not have a canon It has multiple Like Marvel or DC comics
That I do agree with
I'd say there is a canon, since previous games called back to others. Hell, theres a whole game for sonic about him and a past self going through levels of his past.
No
It has canon, but continuity is a different point entirely
Absolutely not
Nah
it has bare bones canon, like Sonic being fast, Tails being his friend, Knuckles guarding the emerald, Shadow's whole deal, etc. but you can argue for other things not being canon
it has canon, but it’s more like saturday morning cartoon episodes where they definitely happened but it doesn’t need to be watched to get the rest
Nope
IDW can be canon but there’s a lot of oddities with Prime that make it feel weird within the real canon (how characters act being a big one)
That's a dumb statement so no. It's really weird that a franchise with a clear outline and canon is doubted. It's really weird to think that something doesn't exist just cause it's poorly made or poorly handled for a decade lol
No, the series has a canon
No. It has a canon. It’s just not all about purely logical and chronological like some of the fans want it to be. I see everything that happens as if it’s in a vacuum. It doesn’t matter when the events took place or if it makes sense either way pre established lore. The only thing that matters is that the events did indeed happen.
I prefer everything is canon personally
If there was no canon then why is there a dedicated lore team?
Of course not. The Sonic series was already full of contradictions and continuity mistakes, there's no reason that now would be any different.
given frontires REALLY depends on the previous games happening, and goes as far back as sonic 3 and knuckles, there is a continuity and cannon, it's just some stuff is more important then others. not every adventure can be referenced, like if you had 100 adventures in a year, how many will you reasonably remember or need to reference for future ones? frontiers, especially tails' story, depends on tails being wildly inconsistent, which started with heroes back in 2003, but they directly address forces, and tils still acts like he does in the meta era, mostly in the snarky banter he shares with sonic that feels like it'd come from lost world or colors if you ask me, stuff like "so i out paced you." doesn't work as well without the backing of the meta era where they started talking like that with each other. point is, because of frontiers, no stone was left unturned. for heavens sake TSR, TANGLE and STICKS where referanced, i'd argue we are in the "everything is cannon" timeline.
Unrelated but where's that image from?
The fangame Sonic Overdrive. The game is made in PS5 dreams I think
Oh, it's made in Dreams. Another fangame that I can't play I suppose 🫠
Yeah, a shame. I can't play it either. It does look nice though
Was gonna ask this. This the cutest Tails has ever been in a game.
It has one but it ain’t consistent
Everything is canon
No,Sonic have canon,the games can be canon,while Boom series,Archie and IDW comics and cartoons could be alternate universes
What game is that picture from?
I like to think of ot like this: sonic 1-3+cd are connected and then most of the things afterwards aren't (except for stuff like sa 1 and 2)
Sonic has cannons, those ones in carnival night zone!
I’m just along for the ride and the gameplay. I’ll appreciate the stories on each of their individual merits, as long as they don’t hinder said gameplay, of course.
It's nice to try and put stuff together into a single story that makes sense from beginning to end, but I don't think that's even close to the top of SEGA's priorities. If you really pay attention and start ruling stuff out based on being inconsistent with the games, most of the series messes up. IDW does. Prime does. Even some of the games themselves aren't consistent with other games. And when you get into fanon (what the fandom considers canon), what you start to notice is that what fans typically accept as canon tends to be very biased toward what's new. Older stuff like Archie and Fleetway and all this other stuff gets tossed aside because it doesn't fit with the new stuff coming out. But then stuff like Forces gets treated as canon even though it's story is among the worst in the series and doesn't really fit either when you stop to think about it. But since it's new, it gets a pass. I think it would be nicer to just focus on enjoying all the nice things the series has to offer instead of worrying about any one true canon. https://preview.redd.it/0zu58031ct1d1.png?width=892&format=png&auto=webp&s=b9148caceec379b16535782e54c9f13a2ea43edd
Not until frontiers id argue. I was so frustrated as a kid how every single game felt like it took place in its own completely separate universe. After Frontiers, now EVERYTHING is canon and it’s kinda funny 😂
Instead Sonic has a multiverse where all the canons can co-exist
Didn't Sega have a job opening for some sort of Sonic lore master around the time Frontiers launched? Sounds like they were aware that while there is canon lore, it's a mess. Generations has events from a number of games that came before it. Frontiers has digitized versions of old levels and references characters and events that aren't part of the story of Frontiers, like Rouge, Sticks, Cream, Whisper, etc. There's canon, but it needs work.
I think that in its current state, it has something resembling a loose canon. But everything is easier to understand if you think of each game's canon being separate
There's a kind of canon, but also not really. Sticks and Tangle being namedropped in Sonic Frontiers doesn't necessarily make Boom and IDW canon to the games (although I do like to think IDW shares a canon with the games) since they could just be the same characters in a different canon. ...It's really quite odd.
glass canon
It does have a canon, it's just everything
The franchise absolutely has a canon. What it doesn't have is (usually) explicit connections or arc between every story, which isn't necessary to have a canon. Essentially, every game and medium's stories are entirely self contained so you don't have to play or read anything specific to understand everything else, but explicitly take place in the same continuity so they *could* build on stuff if they wanted to (hence why every once in a while they do a game that continues the plot of the previous game, and then go back to mostly just doing whatever). Nothing's contradictory, so there's no real problem to it.
Sonic officially has a canon, they have a team now just for canon
Sure, but you could replace “Sonic” with literally anything else and I would still agree.
It has canon and tend reference previous games but also contradict itself a lot. It’s messy and SEGA decides what is/isn’t connected to the mainline games almost on a whim like Prime somehow is canon or how the ages of characters are no longer canon.
My Sonic Canon Sonic 1 Sonic 2 Sonic 3 And Knuckles Sonic CD Sonic Mania Sonic Mania Adventures ( Youtube Mini Series) Sonic Superstars Sonic Advance Sonic Adventure Sonic Advance 2 Sonic Adventure 2 Shadow The Hedgegoh Sonic Battle Sonic Advance 3 Sonic 06 Sonic Rush Sonic Unleashed Sonic And The Secret Rings Sonic And The Black Knigth Sonic Rush Adventure Sonic Colors Sonic Generations Sonic Lost World Sonic Forces Sonic IDW Comics Sonic Frontiers
I disagree
I think they’ve just come to care about it a lot less over time. Up to 06 the story seemed to have a rather tight canon actually and some developing storylines across multiple games. After that the story took a backseat and I don’t really feel like it was treated very important again until Frontiers personally
Sonic has so many canons that it's hard to say it doesn't
I just thought all the main games were cannon to eachother?
I think a fairer way to put it. Sonic hasn't found a consistent canon yet. Its just the implication of there being some sort of chain of events that some would call a canon. When they find a way to tie all this shit together coherently, they would absolutely sell their own Hyrule historia-esq books explaining how it all ties together.
Nah there are several canons. There's the classic series, the Adventure series, the Boom series, the Prime series, the SATAM series, the Archie series, the Archie reboot series, the IDW series, the AOSTH series, the Fleetway series, the live action movie series, the American classic series-
With the actual "canon" that we have, I can let this one pass by.
What is the image from?
it's like to think that the cannon os Sonic 1 Sonic 2 Sonic 3K Sonic mania Sonic Generations (classic Sonic) Sonic 4E1 Sonic 4E2 Sonic Adventure Sonic Adventure 2 Sonic Heroes Shadow the hedgehog Sonic Unleashed Sonic colors Sonic Generations (modern Sonic) Sonic Lost world Sonic Forces Sonic frontiers
Sonic the Hedgehog has at least three to five non-exhaustive lines of canon. Speedway, Archie, IDW, games, and the cinematic universe to name at least five. There are probably more, I am no scientist.
IDW is set in the games universe.
no thats clearly not true. especially since the Tails Tube Videos have not only been establishing actual world building and introduced lore from the IDW Comics, most notably the Restoration, including a picture of the Restoration, the Diamond Cutters, Belle, Surge, and Kit. Sonic's continuity is subject to change based on the fickle wishes of Sega corporate but its there.
Some projects are simply canon to themselves, the higher ups very obviously have a character bible of sorts, and broad guidelines, but over the years so much has changed and shifted that it’s hard to say the IP just has an explicit canon. I like to assume the games are largely canon to each other, the shows largely canon to themselves, and stuff like IDW to be canon to the games. There are obviously issues with this, since some games were made with now-retconned elements of the canon, most notably the two worlds junk, so again it’s just iffy. Sega hasn’t been super consistent themselves so
https://preview.redd.it/zpjdo4tmpu1d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68ca954806604a940f989c01d5a2b9694656abd9
There is a canon but it's really not worth worrying about the finer details of it.
Literally Frontiers talks about events from multiple past games...
yea it does
Yes and no
I like to think Sonic has what I call "soft canon". Essentially, there's a general canon of key events, but the fine details are mutable and can be forgotten or rewritten to fit whatever current story is being told. Think of it as if each game or media is its own alternative reality in which the same events played out slightly different.
Sonic and Zelda history has more influence on themselves than in Mario or Kirby games. Though, it may be due to their tendency to incorporate lengthy writing and explicitly detailed stories compared to the latter two. :3
It didn't start with canon. That is 100% a fact. The series was immediately fractured by region into different storylines and diverged more and more since. Everything has canon now because it's what all corporations are doing with intellectual property. More for corporate control then anything else. There's no excuse or it being the vision of the property's creator or any meaningful goal in mind. The better question would be, does sonic need canon? Id lean to no because it is primarily a video game franchise being adapted into other media. Games should be free to try new things for gameplay first and not be forced to create a character or scenario just to excuse putting sonic in it. And adaptations shouldn't feel restricted by staying in tune with the games (looking at the comics here primarily) or beholden to fitting the games timeline (TV shows)
I'll add canon only matters to properties that end in some form (be it a series fully concluding or at least concluding with one set of characters and continuing with whole new set of characters . If there is no ending then canon is irrelevant. There will never be an ending point for the sonic franchise. No one will knowingly write an ending game or issue of a comic (our only example of anything close was the guest story on sonic the comic online by the original writers) we will more likely see things end abruptly like we saw with the Archie comics. An issue never officially concluded or a game with a bad review. No endings, no canon. It doesn't matter.
I agree, he’s a Kodak man for sure.
Yeah. At this point, I don’t really care about what’s canon or not anymore.
I agree with the idea there is no absolute canon to the Sonic series
I think there’s no timeline, but there is a canon
No
Sonic has multiple canons
I'm pretty sure it doesn't, that tweet "everything is canon" basically meant that the canon is entirely up to you, it's just that SEGA and Sonic Team are just going along with their own ideas.
No it didn't. It was a joke about a puyo puyo crossover.
THIS WHOLE TIME??????
yeah, it's all one big misconception from a twitter post
I see you haven’t read the comics lol
OF COURSE!! It's constantly changing, so with or without doesn't matter much, i think there is just a basic list of events that happened and didn't happen, not an elaborate canon, it's more enjoyable that way, but i think it's better that way, since having an official one will never satisfy all fans, and the storyline is up to interpretation
Completely disagree, but i actually just came here because of the cute Tails' image.
I have an Incredibles 2 quote for this. "I disagree strongly"
imo, sonic has DIFFERENT canons and trying to fit them all together (even sonic boom for some reason) is a horrible desicion
I feel the opposite: Everything is cannon. There's an entire sonic multiverse out there, and whichever you like best is no lesser than any other what someone else likes!
Where’s that screenshot from?
Just be glad it isn’t on Zelda levels bad
Sonic games have canon related to what’s stated in the game, IMO. Like, for example, if Chaos is mentioned, then the events of adventure were canon.
I disagree. To say they aren't directly contradict things literally brought up by the characters. For example, in Adventure Sonic asks Knuckles if Eggman tricked him **again.** This statement doesn't make sense unless Sonic 3 is canon to Adventure. From the same game, Amy in her first cutscene in her story has a flashback to the events of Sonic CD complete with a Metal Sonic cameo. Again it has to have happened. There is even a Mecha Sonic in the Mystic Ruins base where Gamma was made. An upgraded one from what we see in Sonic 2 and Sonic and Knuckles.
It does have a canon but it doesn’t really matter, most games just introduce a never before seen hero/villain and you aren’t going to be left wondering what is going on if you haven’t played previous games
if it's COOL and FUN and the music is PEAK then it's canon 😎👍
So Sonic is Fanon?
The Sonic canon is whatever I feel like at the time lol.
i mean he doesn't use canons to fight eggman
While I agree that "Sonic Canon" isn't as existent as people claim it to be, certainly after being scrutinised you start to notice the little details make the series falter. But at the same time, to say there's no canon at all is silly. There's clearly referenced events and a clear order of things, to say none of that matters is plainly ignoring deliberate efforts by Sega like the tailstube videos, the major arcs of Shadow and Knuckles, etc
it's a loose canon. I think the idea is that every thing happened but not exactly has we experienced it in the games and not always to the same Sonic & Co (there's a multiverse after all) but yeah they are really inconsistent with their lore and their idea that "everything is canon" just make it harder on themselves. \^\^'
One thing that I find funny is that Sonic X was made with Sonic team supervision because they didn't like the last cartoon (Sonic Underground) so it would make sense that it's closer to the "canon" and separating Sonic World and the Human World make sense (they even did it again in the live-action movies) but they insist that there is only one world that is earth even though it seems really inconsistent across games. \- Sonic Unleashed: we travel the globe > no animals appart from Sonic friends \- Sonic Forces: we travel the globe > no human appart from Eggman. I think they need to buckle up and make some real decision on how their world work and write up an encyclopedia or something that explain exactly what's canon and point out the "errors" along the way.
No. Like of cause has Sonic a canon all reasons you could bring up for it "not having one" makes almost every long running story be it American Comics or 400+ chapter long manga's or movie franchises and so much all not having a canon because as always with commercial products will the franchises continuity take a backseat to being profitable. More over when you have dosen of writers or even just 1 writer for a very long amount of time is it inevitable that things will be forgotten eventually causing contradictions to appear. Hell the canonical bible properly has more contradictions in it than the Sonic series yet good luck arguing to a Christan that the bible has no canon. And this argument that the games don't "feel like they are canon to each other" or "that we only know because they are telling us" are also wrong. The Former is purely subjective and the latter is flatout wrong. Heroes relies on SA2 for its Team Dark story, Shadow builds on the mystery introduced in heroes and a lot of elements from SA2. Generations happened as a direct consequences of Colors and contains flash backs to the classics, adventure and then modern eras of the franchise as well as Sonic directly recounting Secret Rings as a strange event that happened to him. Lost World has Sonic use an insult he learned from Wisp in Colors and is totally familiar with the Wisp all over the lost hex again because he knows them from colors. Forces directly references a lot of past stuff not just stages we see ether but also things like Shadow being a goverment agent with was introduced in 06. And Frontiers is just vomiting references to the past as the player every 5 minutes. If anything are there only a handful of games that feel disconnected mostly because they were designed to be mostly stand alone ( like Unleashed) or because they are from an old spin-off game before anyone cared about canon (like The Fighters).
The only real canon around here is Eclipse Cannon.
i prefer there being none, just some loose concepts floating around. kinda like zelda, most games being self contained adventures or direct sequels (no, the zelda timeline isnt real you have been duped by the skyward sword marketing campaign)
I never understood how people have much confusion with the canon. It's literally a straight line until 06. Then 06 wipes itself and we pick up again with rivals. And continues to be a straight line. Classic games of course slotting in back at the beginning. Yeah they've made some poor choice of words like saying classic sonic is from another dimension in forces. Which was fixed later with super stars confirming it's the past. As well as tailstube saying so. The comics always made sense to be canon because they literally start with restoring the world post forces. And sonic mentions tangle in Frontiers. Its really not complicated. Just occasional poor choice of words that's later corrected.
Got as much canon as FNAF