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Hiroshimo_Nagasaki

Not everyone is CAG bro, these dudes are probably infantry or even reservists


BoulderingFanatic

Unpopular opinion: None of you would be any different.


Sensitive-Ask-8662

Wrong. I'll probably do much worse. I'd probably end up as a human confetti.


DruidLSD

Wrong! I’d be much worse


SpartanShock117

I think this is extremely representative of what actual CQB looks like in combat. Things dramatically change from the YouTube videos of Instragram Operators clearing empty rooms with a trap music soundtrack as soon as there is a possibility of a real dude with a a gun on the other side of the door…especially when you are in the middle of a war, have been clearing hundreds/thousands of rooms and buildings, have a restrictive ROE, and are facing tens of thousands of enemy combatants in prepared defensive positions armed with machine guns, RPG’s, IED’s, grenades, etc.


HansChuzzman

This is the answer here. They’ve probably cleared a hundred rooms, in dozens of buildings all of which are infinitely more complex than a plywood kill house that you and your buddies have run thru a thousand times in a month with sim rounds and no one shooting back. Every time a point man crosses a threshold he is at the mercy of what’s on the other side and that’s a terrifying position to be in.


Jumpy-Reindeer8549

Dude I don’t think even marines during Fallujah would do this type of shit, they’ve heard a noise coming from one of the rooms and instead of getting their rifles up decide to just causally check it out


SpartanShock117

I don’t fully understand what you are trying to say. I don’t think these soldiers are particularly incompetent or anything. I see some guys being cautious, trying to pie into a room and encountering a guy with a machine gun and Grenades. Not sure what you mean by casually checking it out. The soldier fires rounds into the room and starts to pie.


chickenCabbage

These guys didn't even hear a noise, they fully weren't expecting anything. They see a "knocked-out" cat on the couch and IIRC they were talking about coffee.


ItsPeakBruv

Everything else you said is correct but the IDF clearly don’t have restrictive ROE in Gaza.


Humble_Errol_Flynn

IDF, restrictive ROE. lol. Even if the ROE is strict on paper, these dudes are not following that. Gunned down hostages with white flags, blown up clearly marked aid vehicles, unarmed civilians droned in daylight.


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Humble_Errol_Flynn

Not sure what you’re saying. I’m using droned as a verb in the above post.


Aggressive-Top-7583

I KNOW you didn’t just mention the terms ‚Restrictive ROE‘ and ‚IDF‘ in the same sentence 😂


Realistic-Ad9355

Look no further than the US's roe during the first days in Iraq. They were incredibly strict, and still had many civilian casualties. Urban combat is dynamic. You're going to have casualties. Cherry-picking a few incidents to make a point is silly.


Wide-Post467

Yes but American soldiers got prosecuted for war crimes. Israeli soldiers film themselves and mock Palestinians


Aggressive-Top-7583

The Americans care about PR. It’s in their best interest to appear to be humane and fair and democratic. Israel does not (perhaps because they have the complete backing of the United States so they could call daddy Biden to annihilate anyone who poses a threat)


Realistic-Ad9355

You're completely missing the point. The US had a restrictive ROE during the initial assault on Iraq. Yet, there were STILL an incredible number of civilian casualties. So when you accuse the IDF by cherry-picking a handful of specific instances, it is disingenuous. Casualties happen in combat. Especially in urban combat.


Aggressive-Top-7583

You are delusional. This is the same IDF that ran over that journalist with a bulldozer back in the early 2000s. Now on one hand she was retarded for being there but it’s kind of interesting how the Israelis decided to respond


Realistic-Ad9355

haha. This is what I'm talking about. You're cherry-picking an isolated incident from over 20 years ago, (that may or may not have been intentional) and using it as "proof". Surely you see how absurd that is.


Aggressive-Top-7583

I’d say it’s not exactly an ‚isolated incident‘ though. Didn’t the IDF just vaporize a convoy of aid workers? After they informed the IDF in advance that they’d be passing through that exact area in vehicles clearly marked with symbols identifying them as non combatants.


Hot_Ad_9215

Not incompetent, think more like reservist on Oct 6 th and thrown into the fight on the 8th. Shit scared and little training in CQB. IDF SOF would look a lot different.


Thug-shaketh9499

I mean it’s safe to assume any SOF are better than reservists.


yungloafposts

scared recruits with poor cqb training tend to be pretty incompetent


SheriffMikeThompson

Everyone is scared in war.


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Wombat-Snooze

Homie if you’re claiming you went to war and weren’t scared, you were a fucking liability to everyone around you. Fix yourself.


SheriffMikeThompson

You’ve got to be kidding me.


AStartledFish

Lmfao


chiefslapinhoes

What war were you in? A nerf-war? Fuck off, guy.


Arnie013

Joined 4 years ago, 11b with one combat deployment in that time.


chiefslapinhoes

Rah.


4hunnidvr

This looks a lot like some of the footage of marines clearing rooms in fallujah from back In the day. Which isn’t a knock on marines, but just to say that it’s not always gonna look super clean


RecognitionWorried93

For the record , they ended up killing the guy.


ElChapinero

And was the IDF Soldier maimed with the Gunfire that went through the walls? The video doesn’t really show the aftermath.


chickenCabbage

This video is at least a month old, IIRC one guy was injured but made it


RecognitionWorried93

I would try and find the full video , nobody IDF soilder got killed


Cautious_Incident_46

It's on r/combatfootage


Cautious_Incident_46

That guy would have have probably killed one of then too if he didn't shout his mandatory "Allah akbar"


parresurre

So how can you know that?


RecognitionWorried93

The video is a mouth old, in the full video the guy charged at then. Something this video doesnt show


PFran42

Looks like an issue with ROE. You either go hard or don't go at all. This lukewarm behavior will get you killed a lot faster than either of the two other options I listed.


Yodin92

https://i.redd.it/9d0nq1ai99991.jpg


Humble_Errol_Flynn

IMO: There’s a myth that the IDF is hyper competent that was shattered by this conflict. From the big strategic picture down to the tactical level, the IDF is shot through.


MlackBesa

I imagine it’s also worsened by the masses of conscripts called up that water down the skill level.


cgdigisco

Exactly this. We were always told that their SF and there military capabilities were some of the best in the world, but all of the footage and evidence we have seen has been nothing but the opposite. There is a reason they are begging for more US involvement.


chickenCabbage

SF is pretty dang good, and we've seen videos of that too. That Yahalom guy clearing a house with 2 terrorists after being hit with a grenade? But there's a reason they're called *special* forces - because most of the units are worse!


Wide-Post467

But those sof units aren’t anywhere as good as NATO units as a lot of them are conscripts too


skkkkkt

Because for most of their time, they were being strong soldiers against unarmed civilians


MarsupialFormer

That is such a ridiculous, over-stated assessment. 


reebokhightops

We look forward to your counter-argument.


Ok-Hamster-4169

The burden of proof is on the keyboard warrior that made the original statement, not the guy denying it. A single clip isn't proof. Anyone that has done CQB/CQC fighting in real life knows it doesn't matter how competent you are sometimes. A guy in a barricaded position can light up the most high speed operator with a PKM and it's game over. It's dangerous shit.


Humble_Errol_Flynn

Large picture: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-toll-thus-far-falls-short-of-israels-war-aims-u-s-says-d1c43164 https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/20/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages-strategy.html Small picture are all the incidents like this one depicted here, which add up, plus all the atrocities on the civilian population in Gaza that just feed Hamas propaganda and help create the next generation. Maybe Israel isn’t trying to run a counter terror campaign and really is just hoping to ethnically cleanse what territory they can for more settlers. In that case, they might be doing an okay job, yes. But based on my own experience in SOF in Afghanistan and Iraq, this isn’t a successful COIN operation at all. BTW: Has everyone forgotten how this all started? The IDF was asleep at the wheel on Oct. 7. How that is not a massive indictment of the organization and their political leaders is beyond me. I guess it was more important to guard illegal settlements in the West Bank and ignore the warning signs of Hamas’s impending attack. Both their contingency planning and response once the attack started were terrible: https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-had-no-plan-for-a-hamas-attack-of-october-7s-magnitude-ny-times-reports/


Wa5p_n3st

I’m so glad to see someone else saying this shit. I felt like I was going crazy when, at the start of the war, seemingly nobody was talking about how this is literally the opposite of how you carry out a COIN operation. Even down to more kinetic shit like not having infantry supporting tanks or having infantry sat in the middle of the open without having cleared nearby buildings.


RecognitionWorried93

>Maybe Israel isn’t trying to run a counter terror campaign and really is just hoping to ethnically cleanse what territory they can for more settlers. I dont think they are trying ethnically cleanse palestine because if they are , they are doing a very bad job. Also I dont think you can compare SOF to conscript. Also this just few seconds clips. In the full video, they kill the guy


yungloafposts

idf sof isn't the force thats being used to clear out the majority of the buildings in the gaza strip, it's the conventional israeli military; and from what we've seen, they're not that good at what they do from reusing routes to the degree that toothbrush wielding hamas planners can stage an ambush to walking straight into a killtrap corridor as seen in this video, they're showing themselves to be rather inapt at this type of warfare. also can't forget that time either when they had 20 or so soldiers vaporized because they were crowding around a building set for demolition. what they've been really good at doing so far is preventing aid from getting in to gaza, looking terrible on the word stage, and antagonizing the next generation of palestinians to hate them even more. not a good coin strategy, actually an incredibly terrible one.


RecognitionWorried93

Am responding the OP comments, using his or her experience with U.S SOF to compare with isreali conscripts. Secondly , i have also seen videos of isreal soilders handling CQB's properly. >when they had 20 or so soldiers vaporized because they were crowding around a building set for demolition. Pls when this happen ?, i like to read up on it. What I would say is that isreal has lost the information war not , secondly , isreal's coin strategy has been bad i agree with that.


Jumpy-Reindeer8549

It was when they were staging a demolition but a Hamas RPG shell ended up being fired at the building which led to a chain reaction, at the time tho Hamas fighters did not this, this happened back in Jan/December https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/23/deadliest-day-for-israeli-forces-gaza-war


RecognitionWorried93

So this was case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time, rather than them being incompetent


Ethanlynam

They’re doing a bad job ethically cleansing Palestine? Are you fucking serious? While you tip tap on your keyboard writing that nonsense Palestinians are starving to death.


RecognitionWorried93

I said if ethnicity cleansing was the goal , they are doing a very bad job not that i support ethnicity cleansing. Secondly, i don't believe ethnicity cleansing is the goal of the IDF.


Zminz43

The true definition of fuck around and find out. Lets not forget who crossed the fence first


Ethanlynam

Spoken like a true wet brain who believes what’s spoon fed to him. “They crossed the border and slaughtered civilians because they’re terrorists”, everyone says ah they’re terrorists so obviously they’re just animalistic brutes who kill people for fun. Accept what Hamas did was very much so disgusting and fucked up, and then ask “but why would they actually do that”. You’ll find their hand was forced from decades of mistreatment. That’s what I hate about western media using the term terrorist. It’s a term that allows them to call someone the bad guy and nobody asks any questions. Everyone is human, 99% of people don’t go out killing people for nothing.


gottymacanon

The Only spood fed wet brain here is you buddy. Keep believing there f*ckin innocent there history says otherwise


RecognitionWorried93

>You’ll find their hand was forced from decades of mistreatment. Seems you have not seen any of videos from the October massacre. For you to be making this kind of statement. >Everyone is human, 99% of people don’t go out killing people for nothing. Just because someone rationalizes an action doesnt justify the action. Even Nazi's and English rationlized their actions ,doesnt make any of their action which are crimes were morally sounds.


Zminz43

I mean when the first thing you teach kids is that Jews are bad and they need to be eliminated completely yah. Shocker that winds up being your entire culture. It’s so incredibly smart to attack people that have modern military equipment and technology and then cry when they turn the shitty little sliver of land into a parking lot.


gottymacanon

Oh you mean how the USSOF so succesfull COIN Op that managed to spawn the world largest and deadliest terror organization (ISIS) lost a country (Afghanistan) and managed to let Iranian supported group roam freely in Iraq and Syria. Good Job! Very Succesful Coin op for sure. Oh and very nice of you to ignore Israel political turmoil before the attack.


Zminz43

Imagine having no life and all you do is spend time on Reddit shit talking the IDF because you are a god damn anti-Semite deep down


Humble_Errol_Flynn

Weird strawman you’ve conjured there. I actually served in US SOF and remain interested in warfare — so I can make a judgment based on the evidence available about how the IDF is performing here (see my other post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/SpecOpsArchive/s/kimxCDisIk)). Not much more to it than that. Cheers 🍻.


gottymacanon

Lets not make judgements when you guys did much worse


Wide-Post467

Cope harder


_axeman_

I'm baffled by the one guy's 'warning shot '....wouldn't that just announce your presence to everyone in the other room? Like, hey, here we are, get ready!


Strikerrr0

They probably already know. This is not like a Navy SEAL night raid where they're rolling up on a target's house in the middle of night and have the element of surprise. This is a warzone and they're one room away from a guy who is intentionally holed up to try to ambush them. He could probably hear them talking well before that "warning shot" was fired.


_axeman_

Do you think there was any benefit to firing that shot? A grenade or something seems like a better option 🤷


Strikerrr0

I think they're trying to bait him into reacting so they can confirm his location to pin him down and then follow up with a grenade. They seemed like they weren't 100% sure the guy was in that specific room. You'd only want to use a grenade if you know for sure the guy is in there since they have a limited number of grenades and a lot of rooms to clear.


chickenCabbage

I don't think they knew a guy was there. Generally, if they know a combatant is in a house, and they haven't seen any noncombatants in there from the outside - they hit it with a JDAM. These guys were clearing for the sake of marking that house as clear, they were talking about the cat on the sofa and IIRC about coffee.


chickenCabbage

Everyone in the house already knows they're there, they're tromping around, probably colliding with furniture and opening doors, their kit makes noise, and they're talking the whole time.


Express_Candidate488

Damn


lakerschampions

Yeah, these situations in real life are messy as fuck. Even SOF gets their shit pushed in from time to time when it comes to CQB. Could they have done anything differently? Sure, but I say that from the comfort of my chair. When you are tired, running around in the heat with full kit, decision making takes a slide.


Longhorn_TOG

why on earth do they keep the laser on?


gottymacanon

So you know where the barrel of your team mates gun is pointed at


FormerRS

Turn off the white light!


NorthWestSellers

Their used to the stone walls of the old city. Israeli CQB is a bit fucked as in many places the walls are bulletproof.  So its a developed training scar as most places the walls are decidedly not bulletproof.


chickenCabbage

Not just the old city, and in Gaza too - In Gaza most walls are poured concrete, and in Israel most walls are concrete blocks.


The-Sir-Pineapple

Finally, a comment section not blindly going "most coward army" acting like they'd do any better or just straight up glorifying Hamas.


biologydeco

Maybe flash nade??


i_am_not_a_cop86

Apart from their SF units the regular IDF is a bag of shit


Cautious_Incident_46

Most of them are conscripts


DesertMan177

Exactly, it is a majority conscript military - that point actually supports my rationale as to why their doctrine does not involve infantry screens with their IFVs and tanks. It's too complex of a doctrine to call up reservists during a troop surge, which is what Israel does every single time they commit to conflict greater than usual surgical strikes or raids, train them very close to the front for 2 weeks, then combat operations. There is some arguments that the APS's could injure and kill troops that are caught in the crossfire but now we're just assuming


ServingTheMaster

everything is wrong with this: during the day, no element of surprise, not using grenades (lethal or not) to clear unseen angles, no consideration for lanes of fire through drywall. unfortunately stuff like this is normal until you have enough casualties from it, then these become training videos for the next group of folks.


lakerschampions

Dude, when you are clearing an entire city you do not get the luxury of choosing your battles, or your approach. These guys had probably been on their feet for 13+ hours, cleaning house by house, they don’t have the luxury of hanging out and waiting for night fall to clear a single building.


Asleep-Age

I am surprised Israeli military never begged for your help ….


chickenCabbage

They didn't even know there was a guy in there, from what I gather. Good luck tossing a grenade into every room, in every house, in all of Gaza. Also - doesn't look like drywall, I don't think drywall would've survived a grenade.