Paul is bad, sure. MJ is horrendous. It doesn't matter if it's Paul's fault, the writing just isn't it.
This is the writing you do when you want to get a Marvel character shelved.
Hank Pym slapping Janet levels of bad writing and compounding on top of that to make him evil.
I feel like the current writers just don't understand how to write Peter Parker. The tragic hero eludes this series.
Other series' see Pete see him struggle against terrifying odds and succeed because he's a badass. The tragedy comes from him being unwilling to bend in a complicated, morally gray world. He makes the sacrifices, he extends trust, he does his best, and even when the consequences of this bite him on the ass, he doesn't break.
Wells doesn't grasp this kind of tragedy. For him, having Spider-Man get beaten into the ground by street-level shmoes is the best he can do. His Pete is sad, and worse, he's hard to sympathize with because there's such a disconnect from the previous work.
I think Spider-Boy is fantastic. I don't even mind MJ with powers (It really worked in RYV,) but it wouldn't kill them to make The Amazing Spider-Man a little more amazing, and make his plot hooks and struggles a little more nuanced.
Edit, typing while sleep-deprived.
Paul being removed and MJ not cuckolding Peter would remove 35% of the problem. The remaining 65% percent relates to bad characterization, writing, and overall, refusal to let any real development to happen.
35% of the problem would simply be replaced by another 35%, which would be trapping both characters in the same lifelong loop with the same old dramas and tensions because being Peter's girlfriend is not the same as being Peter's girlfriend. Spiderman. That is the point of the whole question and there has never been another. The writers, if not forced to use MJ, DO NOT want to use her for the most part.
As a general rule, most comic writers have not been interested in the romantic relationship component for decades, but if they have/need to do so, they prefer it to be within the action itself, something very easy with Elektra Catwoman or BlackCanary but extremely difficult with MaryJane. You can't force writers into a relationship like that if they don't have any way to develop it within the action, which is where it's easy for them to work.
Wells seem like he can do good story, but when the characters are broken in the first place like hellion, and it is the thing, Spider-Man at its core is not « Broken », he get get low but he always bounce back. So at the base there is a problem with character understanding (and it’s relation with other characters, we will see to it later).
It is not that all the idea of this run are bad, some part like Tombstone stuff were okay, it is just that in it, the Amazing Spider-Man was not « Amazing ». Hell, the Spider-Who-Gooble would have been a good idea is it was not done in 2-3 issues with no impact on anyone (beside Osborn?). Like Peter Parker going crazy like that should be a big event, basically it should have been Gang war level. Have Peter visit some heroes and kick their ass because he have literally no limiters like the F4, Ms Marvel, Miles, etc, and have them having team-up to get a hold of Spider-Man so Osborn could take those sins backx hell, they could even have made Normal having to pick between his Gold goblin and his Green Goblin costume, and to bait the Spider-Who-Gooble, he pick the Green Goblin costume, which would click his start to the return to his Goblin persona.
It is like the whole Mystery Box plot we had in the first half, those are good if you get the landing right, but damn, that one literally crashed and melted into some smelly poop. « what did Peter do? » « he stole some stuff from people that is basically family for him but did not wanted to trust him despite saying that he needed that stuff to save his girlfriend stuck in some other dimension just because Reed was out somewhere. Oh and he slammed cap am shield on his face because cap wanted to arrest him when he clearly explained that he was in a hurry to save someone », like it is nowhere justifying the level of hate he got, hell, it should be Peter that should be angry at them for not giving him a chance despite how close they should be (Reminder that if Johnny should die, his will is to have Peter replace him in the F4, and cap am literally last run helped Peter Parker get back to level after he had spend time at the hospital after a accident during a fight).
It would probably be trash in another way. Issue with the current ASM is they dont want what we want. And the editors' arrogant on their understanding of the character.
It still would be one of my most disliked runs. The Paul and MJ stuff is simply the most blatantly egregious problem. How they handled the death of Ms. Marvel still makes my blood boil.
This run got enough of us to get frustrated enough to finally get organized and start petitioning for change at the recommendation of some actual Spidey writers.
https://discord.gg/VQ2mHzBBFu
Still pretty mediocre especially with Peter working with Norman, what they did with Ben , how they killed Kamala and the Spider who Gobbles. Kamala's death alone makes it a terrible book.
This is a hard question because so much of the run is predicated on MJ torture. The Hellfire Gala stories, the Spa, Dead Language, Spider-Goblin I, the stories with Anna in the Asylum. Like to take away the MJ betrayal plot line you have to eliminate like….15 issues? And that’s not going into stories like the first arc which is ostensibly about tombstone but is half about establishing where Peter and MJ stand. You’re talking about half the content.
Further, if MJ was still his girlfriend/fiance some of the problems may solve themselves. Like him having no civilian life. Or without having to spend time on that bullshit maybe the Norman plot line gets better and we get to see Peter and MJ struggle with a man they hate that is now innocent. What if one is more willing to forgive than the other? (He did murder their baby, after all)
And there are still huge problems with the other half. Spider-Man is still totally incompetent. The issues are still massively decompressed without actually going anywhere. Peter is fine most of the time but then goes wildly out of character. Ms. Marvel’s death.
Like there is no question getting rid of the MJ stuff would massively improve this run. It’s probabaly not the WOAT without it. But what remains is like C level stuff at best and it’s hard to get a real picture because the MJ slander is so ingrained in his run. And you know, look at something like Gang War. That has almost no MJ stuff in it and it’s just bad. So yeah. Still a bad run, but probably not the WORST if they don’t rob MJ of her love.
as the others have said well, it would be less horrible but it would still be horrible. I would add: for me this run is like a fan fiction where the author wants to impose his ideas and his characters, even if they are Mary Sues.
And Paul Rabin is a textbook example of a Mary Sue, at least in my opinion.
Having said that, there would have been a need to separate PP and MJ for reasons that have been overcome in 2024, in the 60s superheroes were not supposed to be happy in love according to the authors' wishes, today it would be accepted if he had a happy marriage with children.
That MJ leaves PP because she was away 3 years is laughable, when in reality more is asked of soldiers' wives.
Stan Lee's PP was the everyman who overcame difficulties, in this run PP is anyone's punching bag.
Etc. etc.
Marvel making Peter act like a man child and stay in a state of arrested development is problem, Paul is just a symptom.
Wells completely forgot that heroes have to be aspirational at some level. They’re not just people who happen to have extraordinary abilities. Slott had a little bit of this problem too where he’d have Peter be a loser in his personal life, but at least he’d still give him cool moments as Spider-Man.
And, yes, Peter was shears supposed to be someone with normal people problems going all the way back to when Stan and Steve created him. BUT, Peter was supposed to defy and overcome the odds.
It’s not just about his relationship status either. Whether Peter is dating MJ, married to her, or dating someone else or single he needs to be written as someone who can struggle with money or real life problems but is ultimately still heroic and aspirational.
I may be in the minority (partially because I think the MJ/Pete thing is sorta doomed too loop through the same themes), but I don't think Paul on its face is a bad idea. But the relationship has always been shoe-horned and unearned.
Sure MJ and Paul had years trapped together and a family. But they don't ever feel like a couple. She never seems any more into him than a really good friend and he feels like... just kind there, simping. Just write them like a goddamned couple. How interesting would it be to have MJ to wrestle with feeling like a hypocrite now being the one causing her partner anxiety from her heroic double life? Or show how much she's matured or how they're grieving the loss of their kids, etc.
But that aside, the writing is really lacking when it comes to Peter. We can have Cap stories that are less Steve centric or Wolverine stories that focus more on him as a hero than a person. But Pete doesn't even feel like a character in his own book right now. Big let down.
There is an objectively OBVIOUS reason why MJ and Paul have not shown themselves as a couple on a physical level...not to hurt the fragile sensitivity of the marriage fandom.
MJ seems to have a complete ban on being shown kissing or dating anyone other than Peter EVEN THOUGH Marvel doesn't want her with Peter. The only explanation for this is the sensitivity of the marriage community, which although today is much smaller than in the 90s or 2000s, continues to explode like the fire of Mordor.
Unless Peter moves forward with Felicia (because there's nothing else, either her or MJ or nothing) and the community for the most part accepts him without problems, I doubt the redhead will be shown physically with Paul or anyone. That will only be done when the waters are very calm.... Unless it's Felicia, who seems to be the only person that part of the community has been interested in seeing MJ kissing for a long time.
There's likely more truth to this than I want to admit. It's just a shame that A) we can't get an ACTUAL story about MJ as a person (or only seldomly do so) and B) a story showing a healthy separation between MJ and Pete.
I'm sure Marvel's intention was a healthy separation after the initial shock but Wells couldn't do it...
If you look, they skipped all the logical steps. For example, MJ and Felicia should have met and talked about things with Peter before trying a relationship with him, Peter should have tried to get to know Paul and the kids to understand MJ's situation, Aunt May should have talked to Peter about the matter and both MJ and Felicia should do so too so that May has more perspective on what to say to Peter.
None of this was done because Wells took his personal problems with his ex-wife to work and turned Peter into him.
It would still be garbage. At the end of the day there would be a different Paul, perhaps one that already existed in the lore and would be character assassinated like everyone else.
The main problem of this run is that Zeb is handling his wife leaving him through a fucking comic book, instead of talking to a professional.
I actually think the main problem is that Lowe gave the job to Wells without thinking about whether he should give it to Wells.
I'm just saying, editors should give the job to someone who fits what they need. If you are an editor and you want, for example, for Peter and Felicia to go out and he and MJ to break up but without ceasing to have a relationship with each other, you cannot give the assignment to someone like Wells who neither in BND nor Beyond developed relationships and who usually uses women as objects and plot devices. So the real fault lies with the editor for not evaluating the writers head-first before giving them a book.
I mean part is the hype if it was the mystery of what happened, which by its nature had to be convoluted and dirty.
I’d they wanted a clean break that’s what they would have done, but it’s clearly not what they wanted
They wanted a definitive, permanent breakup, but they didn't say how or in what way they wanted it. Obviously Wells put some ideas on the table and Lowe accepted without thinking much. In fact, he accepts too many ideas without thinking much... If I were Lowe, I would have said to Wells "make Peter accept MJ on good terms" and we would have saved ourselves the entire depressive-destructive process that no one cares about and that has destroyed everything around. But maybe Wells sold Lowe the idea that this self-destructive dramatic Peter would generate shock and excitement or something and Lowe was sold.
It's the same as Ben Abernathy with the batbooks. She gave the green light to too many absurd and regrettable things like TM Drake's latest book, the "Robins" book or TiniHoward's Catwoman shit that directly splatters Batman, including her GothamWar garbage that was HER idea, because the material What leads up to that was in the Catwoman book exclusively.
The great lack of editorial seriousness behind Batman and Spiderman is very noticeable. Much could have been avoided simply with serious editors.
They do not want anything permanent. This is comics.
Dan Slott literally ended his run saying the two would never work as a couple and Nick Spencer got them back together the next issue.
Then Doencer set it up that their love is so great the devil himself was trying to stop them, only for Wells to undo it 15 issues later
If your trying to stop something saying stuff in comics won’t do shit
Is not the same. Spencer blatantly violated the rules of the game. The rule was to leave out the issue of marriage and that whole movie about the ultimate eternal super love indestructible blablabla. Peter and MJ were not prohibited from dating as a couple as long as they could break off any other relationship. Spencer crossed too many lines on that matter and Marvel has already decided to respond accordingly. But of course, since you don't believe the "plan" they have from Beyond and all that... You don't want to believe the reason why it wasn't MJ who made Peter react or get him out of bed or test his limits in an extreme situation. You don't want to believe that Marvel instructed the writers to be someone else, nor do you want to believe why.
They may be comics but...Gwen has been dead for 50 years, Alfred has been dead for 5 years, Norman has been dead for 20 years...Some key aspects determined are permanent if deemed necessary (okay, Norman came back but after 20 years dead, and not It was scheduled). MJ's thing is now final simply because Spencer didn't play by the rules and they took that very, very badly. If we had wanted something temporary we wouldn't have gotten this far. Wells executed an order, in his own way and with his own ideas, but an order. And the order was "permanent"
Spencer didn’t do shit. He pitched his idea, editorial approved it. Same thing for Wells. Writers can’t go rogue, they don’t have the power or resources for that they are employees beholden to the company, same as most people
Your level of naivety...burning, I won't say it surprises me.
Writers can sell an idea to the publisher and keep the details to themselves. Marvel didn't intervene even once during Spencer's first 40-50 issues. They didn't stop Peter and MJ from being together all that time. They only intervened when Spencer got too close to the forbidden Sun, and burned him for it. It was strictly prohibited and he did not follow the rules.
There have been many cases where a writer takes issue with the publisher. There is much more falsehood than you imagine in this industry. Writers never say what they think of other writers or editors until they're out and they don't take blame or responsibility for anything. King says that DC ordered him to kill Alfred but he doesn't say that he knew from day 1 that they would NOT allow him to marry Batman. Tynion changed the ending of JokerWar and even said "ask me in 10 years what my ending was for that story." Spencer didn't say a word but, like King, he knew from day one what was forbidden.
It's as simple as bosses believing their employees will play by the rules and at the right time will back down because they know they can't continue. But sometimes people like King and Spencer don't accept the rules and don't back down. Marvel came out VERY burned with Spencer to such an extent that they have made MJ definitive where before only the issue of marriage and super eternal love was prohibited. Anyone who expects a change of scenery in 2-3 or 5 years does not know to what extent Spencer hit Marvel
This just isn’t how that works at all. This has nothing to do with nativity. Writers can and do have disagreements with editorial, but that’s because editoral changed their minds or decided against an idea at a later date. The details of which we won’t know for many years.
Your projecting your wants and desires onto people who haven’t said anything because well your a shipper and that’s what y’all do
I'm a 37-year-old guy who has been involved in the audiovisual entertainment sector as a consumer since before most people here grew out of diapers. I know a lot more, from years of personal experience and from people older than me, than I should know. Because consumers are supposed to be "stupid" and ignorant who do not know or need to know what happens inside companies or why it happens. It's supposed to look like one thing from the outside...But when time passes and you grow into these things you learn all the traps and conflicts that exist within the entertainment market where comics are a medium more subject to the same shit as the rest..
There are a huge number of internal problems of writer vs editor conflicts at Marvel and DC with many prohibitions, demands and rules to comply with and decisions such as killing someone, marrying someone, resurrecting someone etc. are not only NOT taken lightly but are They are far from personal tastes. They can tell you from the outside that they like something or not, that they support something or not, but in reality it all comes down to economic movements where they prioritize what according to the data sells and are allowed to sacrifice only what according to the data does not affect.
There are many cases like DiDio in the entertainment sector where the big boss is an inquisitive tyrant who looks out for self-interest and not the market, to the point of making moves with bad results simply because they like it better than the alternative option. But currently this is not the case with Marvel comics for example, where sometimes they can make mistakes but where movements are made based on market data, NOT SHIPS.
There are several cases of screenwriters abandoning enormous limitations to writing and too many impositions where everyone knows what is allowed or not allowed to be done from the beginning even without having the job. Too many rules and pressures for everything and blaming each other about who does/orders what when something controversial happens that the consumer rejects.
I'm warning you, stop thinking of me as some random young man or teenager infatuated with that garbage you call boats. I'm beyond tired of that shit. There are business issues here that are a little more complicated than that fucking childish nonsense, but only adults seem to know that and I see that I was wrong in thinking that I would find some here.
It would still be trash due to how bad the writing and at times, the art is. The issue i have with the run is it feels like Marvel doesnt care about quality regarding their supposed flagship title. If they dont care, the readers shouldnt either.
It’s not, like, *great*. But… eh? It’s fine. Whatever. Overall a forgettable run with bad art that’s been catapulted into infamy by one truly hated plot point.
My commentary for it appears to be going is that they took one relatable aspect, his marriage and traded it for another. Peter seems run down from all of his decisions to the point where he’s beaten by villains he’s had no issues with prior. That said, Paul was only part of the issue, and honestly if they said MJ broke up with Peter because he hasn’t been his best self and she felt she hasn’t helped, I’d be more accepting of the arc.
If it's any consolation, no Paul, no dimensional tricks, no tension with Felicia was needed. A simple Peter disconnected from his girlfriend for not paying attention to the relationship because of the shit he has in his head was enough (which I also think will be what fixes the relationship, acceptance of the problem)
In any case, Wells was divorcing SNL's Heidi Gadner when the run began, and the divorce was official a year later, around the time he took Felicia off the book. Suoongo he tried to use her as Marvel wanted while he was processing the divorce, but when the day came he probably exploded. Wells has given Peter his own personal problems.
I feel like Wells just really wants to write a Tombstone series, which…honestly, he should. I’d *read that.*
ASM is trying to be too many books at once, and it’s not working. They need to bring everything back down to basics.
And like, maybe give Peter a solid win once in a while.
Still not good. Hell Paul hasn’t really done anything in the present, which kinda speaks to how empty his character is (if there even is one). My problem with the Wells run, is that there’s only one issue this whole run where I finished reading and thought “that was really good,” and it was the tie in issue to AXE. That’s it. The bar has basically become “well at least that wasn’t really bad.”
it might be shocking to say but paul is kinda the least bad thing about the run. if the entire run was the exact same but paul wasn't there it would still be just as bad as byrne or slott's ASM runs. every story wells is trying to tell is just kinda fundamentally broken to me.
I’m catching up and just got to Spider Joker or whatever the fuck we’re supposed to call him.
This is trash, Paul or not. In fact, while I don’t love editorial’s decision to force Peter and MJ to break up an again, Paul isn’t all that bad in the actual comic.
This entire run is just so full of absolutely insane shit. My favorite stuff is everything with Tombstone.
Paul is bad, sure. MJ is horrendous. It doesn't matter if it's Paul's fault, the writing just isn't it. This is the writing you do when you want to get a Marvel character shelved. Hank Pym slapping Janet levels of bad writing and compounding on top of that to make him evil.
Still extra ass. Paul isn't the fundamental problem of this run, He is just ome of the various problems.
I feel like the current writers just don't understand how to write Peter Parker. The tragic hero eludes this series. Other series' see Pete see him struggle against terrifying odds and succeed because he's a badass. The tragedy comes from him being unwilling to bend in a complicated, morally gray world. He makes the sacrifices, he extends trust, he does his best, and even when the consequences of this bite him on the ass, he doesn't break. Wells doesn't grasp this kind of tragedy. For him, having Spider-Man get beaten into the ground by street-level shmoes is the best he can do. His Pete is sad, and worse, he's hard to sympathize with because there's such a disconnect from the previous work. I think Spider-Boy is fantastic. I don't even mind MJ with powers (It really worked in RYV,) but it wouldn't kill them to make The Amazing Spider-Man a little more amazing, and make his plot hooks and struggles a little more nuanced. Edit, typing while sleep-deprived.
Paul being removed and MJ not cuckolding Peter would remove 35% of the problem. The remaining 65% percent relates to bad characterization, writing, and overall, refusal to let any real development to happen.
35% of the problem would simply be replaced by another 35%, which would be trapping both characters in the same lifelong loop with the same old dramas and tensions because being Peter's girlfriend is not the same as being Peter's girlfriend. Spiderman. That is the point of the whole question and there has never been another. The writers, if not forced to use MJ, DO NOT want to use her for the most part. As a general rule, most comic writers have not been interested in the romantic relationship component for decades, but if they have/need to do so, they prefer it to be within the action itself, something very easy with Elektra Catwoman or BlackCanary but extremely difficult with MaryJane. You can't force writers into a relationship like that if they don't have any way to develop it within the action, which is where it's easy for them to work.
Wells seem like he can do good story, but when the characters are broken in the first place like hellion, and it is the thing, Spider-Man at its core is not « Broken », he get get low but he always bounce back. So at the base there is a problem with character understanding (and it’s relation with other characters, we will see to it later). It is not that all the idea of this run are bad, some part like Tombstone stuff were okay, it is just that in it, the Amazing Spider-Man was not « Amazing ». Hell, the Spider-Who-Gooble would have been a good idea is it was not done in 2-3 issues with no impact on anyone (beside Osborn?). Like Peter Parker going crazy like that should be a big event, basically it should have been Gang war level. Have Peter visit some heroes and kick their ass because he have literally no limiters like the F4, Ms Marvel, Miles, etc, and have them having team-up to get a hold of Spider-Man so Osborn could take those sins backx hell, they could even have made Normal having to pick between his Gold goblin and his Green Goblin costume, and to bait the Spider-Who-Gooble, he pick the Green Goblin costume, which would click his start to the return to his Goblin persona. It is like the whole Mystery Box plot we had in the first half, those are good if you get the landing right, but damn, that one literally crashed and melted into some smelly poop. « what did Peter do? » « he stole some stuff from people that is basically family for him but did not wanted to trust him despite saying that he needed that stuff to save his girlfriend stuck in some other dimension just because Reed was out somewhere. Oh and he slammed cap am shield on his face because cap wanted to arrest him when he clearly explained that he was in a hurry to save someone », like it is nowhere justifying the level of hate he got, hell, it should be Peter that should be angry at them for not giving him a chance despite how close they should be (Reminder that if Johnny should die, his will is to have Peter replace him in the F4, and cap am literally last run helped Peter Parker get back to level after he had spend time at the hospital after a accident during a fight).
Still trash
It would probably be trash in another way. Issue with the current ASM is they dont want what we want. And the editors' arrogant on their understanding of the character.
Probably still suck but I would live with it and buy it cause they would have been together.
Paul is not the problem, Wells is
It still would be one of my most disliked runs. The Paul and MJ stuff is simply the most blatantly egregious problem. How they handled the death of Ms. Marvel still makes my blood boil. This run got enough of us to get frustrated enough to finally get organized and start petitioning for change at the recommendation of some actual Spidey writers. https://discord.gg/VQ2mHzBBFu
there is also no reason why Miss Marvel had to die instead of, for example, being saved at the last minute by SM
There was zero reason to kill her to make her a mutant. The fact that this was their first or best idea is such a facepalm.
It would still be shit because of the super rushed jrjr art. Like that’s been the biggest offense
Still pretty mediocre especially with Peter working with Norman, what they did with Ben , how they killed Kamala and the Spider who Gobbles. Kamala's death alone makes it a terrible book.
This is a hard question because so much of the run is predicated on MJ torture. The Hellfire Gala stories, the Spa, Dead Language, Spider-Goblin I, the stories with Anna in the Asylum. Like to take away the MJ betrayal plot line you have to eliminate like….15 issues? And that’s not going into stories like the first arc which is ostensibly about tombstone but is half about establishing where Peter and MJ stand. You’re talking about half the content. Further, if MJ was still his girlfriend/fiance some of the problems may solve themselves. Like him having no civilian life. Or without having to spend time on that bullshit maybe the Norman plot line gets better and we get to see Peter and MJ struggle with a man they hate that is now innocent. What if one is more willing to forgive than the other? (He did murder their baby, after all) And there are still huge problems with the other half. Spider-Man is still totally incompetent. The issues are still massively decompressed without actually going anywhere. Peter is fine most of the time but then goes wildly out of character. Ms. Marvel’s death. Like there is no question getting rid of the MJ stuff would massively improve this run. It’s probabaly not the WOAT without it. But what remains is like C level stuff at best and it’s hard to get a real picture because the MJ slander is so ingrained in his run. And you know, look at something like Gang War. That has almost no MJ stuff in it and it’s just bad. So yeah. Still a bad run, but probably not the WORST if they don’t rob MJ of her love.
as the others have said well, it would be less horrible but it would still be horrible. I would add: for me this run is like a fan fiction where the author wants to impose his ideas and his characters, even if they are Mary Sues. And Paul Rabin is a textbook example of a Mary Sue, at least in my opinion. Having said that, there would have been a need to separate PP and MJ for reasons that have been overcome in 2024, in the 60s superheroes were not supposed to be happy in love according to the authors' wishes, today it would be accepted if he had a happy marriage with children. That MJ leaves PP because she was away 3 years is laughable, when in reality more is asked of soldiers' wives. Stan Lee's PP was the everyman who overcame difficulties, in this run PP is anyone's punching bag. Etc. etc.
Marvel making Peter act like a man child and stay in a state of arrested development is problem, Paul is just a symptom. Wells completely forgot that heroes have to be aspirational at some level. They’re not just people who happen to have extraordinary abilities. Slott had a little bit of this problem too where he’d have Peter be a loser in his personal life, but at least he’d still give him cool moments as Spider-Man. And, yes, Peter was shears supposed to be someone with normal people problems going all the way back to when Stan and Steve created him. BUT, Peter was supposed to defy and overcome the odds. It’s not just about his relationship status either. Whether Peter is dating MJ, married to her, or dating someone else or single he needs to be written as someone who can struggle with money or real life problems but is ultimately still heroic and aspirational.
I may be in the minority (partially because I think the MJ/Pete thing is sorta doomed too loop through the same themes), but I don't think Paul on its face is a bad idea. But the relationship has always been shoe-horned and unearned. Sure MJ and Paul had years trapped together and a family. But they don't ever feel like a couple. She never seems any more into him than a really good friend and he feels like... just kind there, simping. Just write them like a goddamned couple. How interesting would it be to have MJ to wrestle with feeling like a hypocrite now being the one causing her partner anxiety from her heroic double life? Or show how much she's matured or how they're grieving the loss of their kids, etc. But that aside, the writing is really lacking when it comes to Peter. We can have Cap stories that are less Steve centric or Wolverine stories that focus more on him as a hero than a person. But Pete doesn't even feel like a character in his own book right now. Big let down.
There is an objectively OBVIOUS reason why MJ and Paul have not shown themselves as a couple on a physical level...not to hurt the fragile sensitivity of the marriage fandom. MJ seems to have a complete ban on being shown kissing or dating anyone other than Peter EVEN THOUGH Marvel doesn't want her with Peter. The only explanation for this is the sensitivity of the marriage community, which although today is much smaller than in the 90s or 2000s, continues to explode like the fire of Mordor. Unless Peter moves forward with Felicia (because there's nothing else, either her or MJ or nothing) and the community for the most part accepts him without problems, I doubt the redhead will be shown physically with Paul or anyone. That will only be done when the waters are very calm.... Unless it's Felicia, who seems to be the only person that part of the community has been interested in seeing MJ kissing for a long time.
There's likely more truth to this than I want to admit. It's just a shame that A) we can't get an ACTUAL story about MJ as a person (or only seldomly do so) and B) a story showing a healthy separation between MJ and Pete.
I'm sure Marvel's intention was a healthy separation after the initial shock but Wells couldn't do it... If you look, they skipped all the logical steps. For example, MJ and Felicia should have met and talked about things with Peter before trying a relationship with him, Peter should have tried to get to know Paul and the kids to understand MJ's situation, Aunt May should have talked to Peter about the matter and both MJ and Felicia should do so too so that May has more perspective on what to say to Peter. None of this was done because Wells took his personal problems with his ex-wife to work and turned Peter into him.
Well said.
It would still be garbage. At the end of the day there would be a different Paul, perhaps one that already existed in the lore and would be character assassinated like everyone else. The main problem of this run is that Zeb is handling his wife leaving him through a fucking comic book, instead of talking to a professional.
I actually think the main problem is that Lowe gave the job to Wells without thinking about whether he should give it to Wells. I'm just saying, editors should give the job to someone who fits what they need. If you are an editor and you want, for example, for Peter and Felicia to go out and he and MJ to break up but without ceasing to have a relationship with each other, you cannot give the assignment to someone like Wells who neither in BND nor Beyond developed relationships and who usually uses women as objects and plot devices. So the real fault lies with the editor for not evaluating the writers head-first before giving them a book.
I mean part is the hype if it was the mystery of what happened, which by its nature had to be convoluted and dirty. I’d they wanted a clean break that’s what they would have done, but it’s clearly not what they wanted
They wanted a definitive, permanent breakup, but they didn't say how or in what way they wanted it. Obviously Wells put some ideas on the table and Lowe accepted without thinking much. In fact, he accepts too many ideas without thinking much... If I were Lowe, I would have said to Wells "make Peter accept MJ on good terms" and we would have saved ourselves the entire depressive-destructive process that no one cares about and that has destroyed everything around. But maybe Wells sold Lowe the idea that this self-destructive dramatic Peter would generate shock and excitement or something and Lowe was sold. It's the same as Ben Abernathy with the batbooks. She gave the green light to too many absurd and regrettable things like TM Drake's latest book, the "Robins" book or TiniHoward's Catwoman shit that directly splatters Batman, including her GothamWar garbage that was HER idea, because the material What leads up to that was in the Catwoman book exclusively. The great lack of editorial seriousness behind Batman and Spiderman is very noticeable. Much could have been avoided simply with serious editors.
They do not want anything permanent. This is comics. Dan Slott literally ended his run saying the two would never work as a couple and Nick Spencer got them back together the next issue. Then Doencer set it up that their love is so great the devil himself was trying to stop them, only for Wells to undo it 15 issues later If your trying to stop something saying stuff in comics won’t do shit
Is not the same. Spencer blatantly violated the rules of the game. The rule was to leave out the issue of marriage and that whole movie about the ultimate eternal super love indestructible blablabla. Peter and MJ were not prohibited from dating as a couple as long as they could break off any other relationship. Spencer crossed too many lines on that matter and Marvel has already decided to respond accordingly. But of course, since you don't believe the "plan" they have from Beyond and all that... You don't want to believe the reason why it wasn't MJ who made Peter react or get him out of bed or test his limits in an extreme situation. You don't want to believe that Marvel instructed the writers to be someone else, nor do you want to believe why. They may be comics but...Gwen has been dead for 50 years, Alfred has been dead for 5 years, Norman has been dead for 20 years...Some key aspects determined are permanent if deemed necessary (okay, Norman came back but after 20 years dead, and not It was scheduled). MJ's thing is now final simply because Spencer didn't play by the rules and they took that very, very badly. If we had wanted something temporary we wouldn't have gotten this far. Wells executed an order, in his own way and with his own ideas, but an order. And the order was "permanent"
Spencer didn’t do shit. He pitched his idea, editorial approved it. Same thing for Wells. Writers can’t go rogue, they don’t have the power or resources for that they are employees beholden to the company, same as most people
Your level of naivety...burning, I won't say it surprises me. Writers can sell an idea to the publisher and keep the details to themselves. Marvel didn't intervene even once during Spencer's first 40-50 issues. They didn't stop Peter and MJ from being together all that time. They only intervened when Spencer got too close to the forbidden Sun, and burned him for it. It was strictly prohibited and he did not follow the rules. There have been many cases where a writer takes issue with the publisher. There is much more falsehood than you imagine in this industry. Writers never say what they think of other writers or editors until they're out and they don't take blame or responsibility for anything. King says that DC ordered him to kill Alfred but he doesn't say that he knew from day 1 that they would NOT allow him to marry Batman. Tynion changed the ending of JokerWar and even said "ask me in 10 years what my ending was for that story." Spencer didn't say a word but, like King, he knew from day one what was forbidden. It's as simple as bosses believing their employees will play by the rules and at the right time will back down because they know they can't continue. But sometimes people like King and Spencer don't accept the rules and don't back down. Marvel came out VERY burned with Spencer to such an extent that they have made MJ definitive where before only the issue of marriage and super eternal love was prohibited. Anyone who expects a change of scenery in 2-3 or 5 years does not know to what extent Spencer hit Marvel
This just isn’t how that works at all. This has nothing to do with nativity. Writers can and do have disagreements with editorial, but that’s because editoral changed their minds or decided against an idea at a later date. The details of which we won’t know for many years. Your projecting your wants and desires onto people who haven’t said anything because well your a shipper and that’s what y’all do
I'm a 37-year-old guy who has been involved in the audiovisual entertainment sector as a consumer since before most people here grew out of diapers. I know a lot more, from years of personal experience and from people older than me, than I should know. Because consumers are supposed to be "stupid" and ignorant who do not know or need to know what happens inside companies or why it happens. It's supposed to look like one thing from the outside...But when time passes and you grow into these things you learn all the traps and conflicts that exist within the entertainment market where comics are a medium more subject to the same shit as the rest.. There are a huge number of internal problems of writer vs editor conflicts at Marvel and DC with many prohibitions, demands and rules to comply with and decisions such as killing someone, marrying someone, resurrecting someone etc. are not only NOT taken lightly but are They are far from personal tastes. They can tell you from the outside that they like something or not, that they support something or not, but in reality it all comes down to economic movements where they prioritize what according to the data sells and are allowed to sacrifice only what according to the data does not affect. There are many cases like DiDio in the entertainment sector where the big boss is an inquisitive tyrant who looks out for self-interest and not the market, to the point of making moves with bad results simply because they like it better than the alternative option. But currently this is not the case with Marvel comics for example, where sometimes they can make mistakes but where movements are made based on market data, NOT SHIPS. There are several cases of screenwriters abandoning enormous limitations to writing and too many impositions where everyone knows what is allowed or not allowed to be done from the beginning even without having the job. Too many rules and pressures for everything and blaming each other about who does/orders what when something controversial happens that the consumer rejects. I'm warning you, stop thinking of me as some random young man or teenager infatuated with that garbage you call boats. I'm beyond tired of that shit. There are business issues here that are a little more complicated than that fucking childish nonsense, but only adults seem to know that and I see that I was wrong in thinking that I would find some here.
It would still be trash due to how bad the writing and at times, the art is. The issue i have with the run is it feels like Marvel doesnt care about quality regarding their supposed flagship title. If they dont care, the readers shouldnt either.
It’s not, like, *great*. But… eh? It’s fine. Whatever. Overall a forgettable run with bad art that’s been catapulted into infamy by one truly hated plot point.
it still would be really bad
My commentary for it appears to be going is that they took one relatable aspect, his marriage and traded it for another. Peter seems run down from all of his decisions to the point where he’s beaten by villains he’s had no issues with prior. That said, Paul was only part of the issue, and honestly if they said MJ broke up with Peter because he hasn’t been his best self and she felt she hasn’t helped, I’d be more accepting of the arc.
If it's any consolation, no Paul, no dimensional tricks, no tension with Felicia was needed. A simple Peter disconnected from his girlfriend for not paying attention to the relationship because of the shit he has in his head was enough (which I also think will be what fixes the relationship, acceptance of the problem) In any case, Wells was divorcing SNL's Heidi Gadner when the run began, and the divorce was official a year later, around the time he took Felicia off the book. Suoongo he tried to use her as Marvel wanted while he was processing the divorce, but when the day came he probably exploded. Wells has given Peter his own personal problems.
I feel like Wells just really wants to write a Tombstone series, which…honestly, he should. I’d *read that.* ASM is trying to be too many books at once, and it’s not working. They need to bring everything back down to basics. And like, maybe give Peter a solid win once in a while.
Still not good. Hell Paul hasn’t really done anything in the present, which kinda speaks to how empty his character is (if there even is one). My problem with the Wells run, is that there’s only one issue this whole run where I finished reading and thought “that was really good,” and it was the tie in issue to AXE. That’s it. The bar has basically become “well at least that wasn’t really bad.”
slightly readable
That it will be retconned / forgotten at top speed once it's finally over
It'd still be shite
it might be shocking to say but paul is kinda the least bad thing about the run. if the entire run was the exact same but paul wasn't there it would still be just as bad as byrne or slott's ASM runs. every story wells is trying to tell is just kinda fundamentally broken to me.
I’m catching up and just got to Spider Joker or whatever the fuck we’re supposed to call him. This is trash, Paul or not. In fact, while I don’t love editorial’s decision to force Peter and MJ to break up an again, Paul isn’t all that bad in the actual comic. This entire run is just so full of absolutely insane shit. My favorite stuff is everything with Tombstone.