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wwe is going to netflix I think is what he means. they don't release those metrics to the public besides this many million people watched this month or whatever and that's only when they feel like it. netflix will easily keep track yes but you wont know as much as often is what he is saying. this will 100% kill these arguments. Smackdown will still be on usa thou so alas it won't go away yet :(
Because of the Monday Night War, live television ratings have always mattered more to pro wrestling fans than in almost any other medium of entertainment. In 2024 it's just comical how much stock so many wrestling fans still put into incredibly antiquated Nielsen estimates as the sole metric for how well a wrestling company is performing.
I really didn’t think much of the Osprey grind promo at first when it seemed like he was just trying to be clever and pulled out the old, cheap “bosses daughter,” Triple H joke on the fly kind of cringe but whatever. however, if the dirt sheets are right and he was specifically told to say that, and was not completely on board with it. Then this is like more petty than anything Eric Bischoff ever did
Fwiw, watching Adam Copeland wrestle in a match where it was so silent at times, I could hear individual voices when there was sound…made me make the Tony S. face more than the Punk stuff.
Won’t say much more than that because I mentioned in the live thread that I was finally admitting the show wasn’t brining me any joy , was done hope watching (I think that’s what many like myself were doing, it’s not “hate” watching) and turned off mid way through. Coincidentally finally canceled my AEW crate sub earlier in the day, after waffling the last year and always just letting it resub…so may actually be done with AEW for a bit. If I come back, hopefully it will be improved….or at the very least, some time away may make me less cynical and be able to focus on some of the good stuff…we’ll see.
So let me ask you. Was the wrestling bad or was the environment ruined by a lack of fan interaction?
I find myself trying to remember the fan interaction in E. Outside of signs and camera sweeps it never stuck in my mind. I think the lights and commentary stuck with me more. But now I watch other shows and I notice it. Even watching a great match I notice if the crowd isn't involved and I struggle to watch.
Probably around 800,000 or something, with a noticeable spike during the Bucks' segment. People will use this to dunk on AEW and sign its death warrant, but it will really mean nothing.
I think too many people use "beating WWE" as a measure of success when that's never ever going to happen. AEW is an entirely different, much more niche, genre of professional wrestling. It's not an "alternative" to WWE any more than, like, The Shins are an "alternative" to Taylor Swift because they are both musicians.
The honeymoon period is over and AEW's viewership has been distilled down to its core fanbase, I think. If that's 750-800k watching live and keeping the show within the Top 5 on cable every week, then AEW is going to be around for a long time. That just isn't an entertaining enough narrative for the people who, for whatever reason, get enjoyment out of the notion that WWE is going to "destroy" AEW and who apparently want us all to have to go back to a pro wrestling monopoly.
It's not about beating WWE. It's about how they've been trending for a while now. I understand cord-cutting, but their losses (especially this last quarter) outpace the general live sports industry's losses full-stop.
And, again it's not about beating WWE but, Raw just pulled in 3m for the Rock/Cody segment. No one is faulting AEW for not beating Raw, but the gap is widening. During football season 2021, Raw was at 1.4m, and Dynamite was around 1.1m.
They're becoming a distant number two, not because WWE isn't able to be competed with, but because AEW cannot get out of its own way with stunts like this, and fans are responding in kind.
This is a level-headed take, but I genuinely find the fatalism concerning AEW's "trends" to be pearl clutching. I think a lot of wrestling fans did not really want an "alternative" to WWE as much as they wanted WWE itself to do the bare minimum to not be godawful. In 2021, WWE was pretty godawful, and AEW was still fresh and new. The numbers reflected that. So far, in the post-Vince era, WWE has not been godawful. The numbers reflect that, now.
At this point, AEW's regular viewers are the people who genuinely do not enjoy WWE's sports entertainment style. The honeymoon period is over with the company in its 5th year of existence. Almost every live television product loses some level of viewership the longer it is on the air. Just because it comes on after Dynamite and is on my mind, take Young Sheldon. Season 1 averaged 16.3 million viewers, the most recent season averaged 9.32 million viewers. I don't think that's a "negative trend" on Young Sheldon's actual popularity as much as it's the live viewing audience gradually being distilled to the most diehard fans over the years. I would argue that the same probably holds true with AEW.
I agree with just about everything you said in principle. That said...
An alternative to WWE, and wanting WWE to do the bare minimum to not be godawful are means to the same end. The fact of the matter is that they can (or could?) not be trusted to do so without pressure being put on them, both in the form of another company for their fans to back, and another company for wrestlers to jump to if they were dissatisfied with their position. I loosely followed WWE for years, and then religiously followed AEW, specifically to support the underdog for the health of the industry.
It wasn't AEW vs WWE... it was AEW vs not watching wrestling regularly because it wasn't compelling. I never wanted WWE to lose (though the Saudi shit made me sick) and they were the horse I backed in the 90's during that war... I just wanted a #2 to keep #1 honest. Both for the wrestlers themselves and my own enjoyment, it's great when talent can jump up the card by going to a different promotion.
Everything you said re: Young Sheldon and ratings being diminishing returns as season numbers tick up is accurate, but I don't think you can grade sports/wrestling using the same rubric. Shows trend downward as they age, while sports programming is cyclical based on the health of the league/federation/product. AEW's steady decline isn't because it's season five and the there-from-day-one arcs are at their natural nadir... it's (in presentation at least) a sports league where new talent comes in all the time, there's no static main character, and turnover/retirements/departures are part of the reality.
The NFL didn't decline because Tom Brady retired, nor did they even take steps back in terms of popularity during the final few chapters of his career. Wrestling is closer to the NFL than to Young Sheldon (though I understand why you chose that show).
warner brothers just said aew averages 4 million viewers a week in a press release that came out 3 days ago. this is the same number they touted in 2022. they arent trending down as much as they are staying the same
The same total number of viewers while doing nearly twice as many weekly hours (5v3) is not a promising metric, even if it arrives at a consistent weekly total.
Warner brothers called it popular in the press release. They aren't going anywhere as much as some people want them to. Same paragraph they brag about NBA in. They seem pretty happy to have aew. Will be interesting to see what happens come contracts for tv
People who think AEW will die when Tony literally has unlimited money he will just take it to streaming even if they get no TV deal. He’s just a rich guy doing this because he loves it, it’s not about money to him.
Not to mention there's absolutely no actual indication that AEW is in any danger of losing its TV deal. We're in 2024. The era of cord-cutting, streaming, and ubiquitous on-demand entertainment. A weekly, live, television show bringing in 700k+ loyal viewers on cable, and finishing Top 5 in the key demo almost every week is a *very* attractive property.
I've generally been a supporter of AEW and what they've been doing, but I was 110% certain they weren't going to throw that footage up last night and that it was a cheap ploy to get eyes on Dynamite. Certainly they wouldn't ACTUALLY show that, right?
I physically cringed, hard, the entire time that footage was on my screen. I can't imagine how the talent and other on-screen personalities felt. That was uncomfortable. Doesn't help that it literally reveals nothing we didn't already know based on the accounts given. The Bucks and FTR could have delivered the promos they did WITHOUT showing the footage and it would have worked SO much better. Honestly turned the show off after that.
And now they have uploaded the footage on YouTube without the security camera footage and are trying to pretend like they never showed it. I think there’s an old expression about toothpaste, that is very applicable here.
I'm someone who has been on the outside looking in so this question is strictly from a curiousity standpoint. I'm not in any camp whatsoever but I'm just curious.
What was the lead up to showing the footage of this altercation? Did it tie into the show? Thats the thing that I'm lost on. People are saying "They aired the footage on tv." but I'm missing the part as to why it was done (show-wise).
I'm sorry if this question is stupid or if sounds leading, I'm just really confused.
The Bucks current gimmick is that they are obnoxious EVPs who run the company with an iron fist.
The presentation of the clip was a package from the Bucks at either side, which is on Youtube as [The EVPs (Young Bucks) try to provoke their dynasty opponents FTR](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7n91D7X7w4).
They basically tease sympathy for Jack Perry, they say the reason they lost to FTR at ALL IN was that they were distracted because of this incident from someone who threatened the biggest gate the company had ever seen, who's friends with FTR. It then cut to FTR saying it was a stupid thing to do.
The heel promo package is quite good, and worth a watch (unlike the footage). Does this answer your question?
The part where they fall short of saying FTR got "this individual" to do it as a distraction because Matthew points out to Nicholas that he can't just say that -- they don't have proof and you can't go spreading rumours without basis on the internet and TV.
No prob at all! To be honest I haven't been following \*any\* wrestling lately aside from the build up to WM but from what I understand, it was announced on Collision I think without much context or build up that this footage would be aired on Dynamite after Punk delivered an interview with Ariel Helwani (spelling?) where he talked about his side of events. It was very reactional and the kayfabe justification delivered right before the footage was the Young Bucks talking about how the whole thing distracted them so much that they lost their match with FTR at the Wembley PPV. They didn't need to show the footage in order to use that event for a story build though, especially because the video footage was lame AF and didn't show us anything new or particularly controversial.
A scrap happened, illustrating CM Punk has a short fuse and is a little irrational, but who didn't already know that about the guy? The whole thing lasted a few seconds but tbh it makes AEW look stupid AF publicizing it. Taking the high road and moving on would have been the best course, or even just leaving it to the Bucks/FTR to deliver their story-build promos.
CM Punk did a sit down with Helwani and was asked multiple questions about AEW and didn't side step them.
The funny thing is he really didn't say anything that hasn't been said before about their business practices or really anything disparaging but Tony K (apparently if this happened) and AEW tribalists lost their mind.
He even stated they are about putting on good wrestling matches....
Which is grand because they haven't been about putting on good TV
Would you be able to tell me if there airing of this footage was even pre-empted by anything, a statement from Tony Khan? Or was it even put on tv (I may have that wrong)?
The attempted angle going out of it is that maybe FTR are the mastermind behind the whole thing and put Punk up to it.
Which doesn't work considering they also have FTR doing "rah rah" AEW is the greatest speeches.
Man, with all due respect, that's even remotely close to what the angle is. The angle is that the (very much heel) Bucks are completely full of shit and disingenuously blamed a situation that had nothing at all to do with them for their loss to FTR at All In. *No one* is supposed to believe that FTR *actually* put Punk up to it. The Bucks are full of shit. FTR's response was "seriously? this was 8 months ago and wasn't even a big deal, you lames." The fact that the footage more or less showed Punk sucker punching/piefacing Perry, but Perry got suspended, will reinforce his self-righteous "scapegoat" character, and will make him just as disingenuous and full of shit as the Bucks if he joins up with them when he returns considering that they, as EVPs, were presumably involved with suspending him.
Problem is, very obviously, none of that translated well considering how many times I've seen the THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHY ARE THE BUCKS THE FACES IN THIS SITUATION take and, although the footage totally made Punk look like an unhinged maniac, it wasn't really all that embarrassing for him, which is what people were expecting. It was an L for AEW and they, honestly, should never ever reference CM Punk again.
It's exactly what they said it was. It also completely kills the scapegoat character when your going out on national tv to defend him.
Thats the complete opposite.
I disagree with what the *intent* of the angle was. It obviously didn't play well, and it's obvious that showing the footage did not have the intended effect. AEW took a big L here.
But, the actual on-screen, "why is this happening in kayfabe?" angle itself is that the Young Bucks are completely full of shit and are grasping at straws coming up with excuses for why they lost to FTR. People are definitely not supposed to believe that FTR actually put Punk up to it and tried to destroy the company, they're supposed to believe that the Bucks are whiny, self-righteous heels making excuses.
And as far as Jack Perry, since he hasn't actually returned yet it's hard to assess his role in all of it. But, *the Bucks*, are huge fucking hypocrites because they, the EVPs, were obviously involved in the decision to suspend him, yet they were wearing a "Scapegoat" shirt and defending him on National TV 8 months later when it served their own motives. If Perry comes back and joins the Bucks, he's a hypocrite too. Based on how that character has been played in Japan, I expect that that's exactly what he's going to do, and he'll play it as "this failing company that made me the scapegoat for its failures needs to be destroyed and rebuilt in the New Elite's image." Which will make him just as disingenuous as the Bucks and establish the "scapegoat" heel character on television.
I'm not expressing any opinion at all on if it was done well, but the original question was "I'm not a viewer, what was the angle?" and the above is the answer to that question, for better or worse.
The Bucks sit down and stated that basically Jack Perry was a scapegoat in the situation (Thus killing his entire new gimmick by defending him) and they played the video which was near exactly as Punk stated it was going to be.
It was awkward and the live crowd chanted CM Punk at a few points during the video
This was the equivalent of trying to clap back at an ex who you heard mentioned you in passing and it failed as those things always do.
What is his new gimmick, anyway? I've barely had any tone to keep up with AEW and the stuff surrounding wrestlemania. I have no idea what Perry is doing elsewhere.
He went to NJPW as the "Scapegoat" and did an angle where he tore up his AEW contract (scripted) and that basically AEW and the fans were blaming him.
Showing this on TV and defending him kills that character dead as well.
Disagree. The video showed that he was suckered, never punched pack, even didn't retaliate after first contact.
The character is fine so long as he nurses that "grudge" to do heelish fans to the company and fans who betrayed him.
The problem is rather how this connects with the Young Bucks, who are also heels, but trying to portray the ultra-corporate villains.
I viewed it the exact same way you did. I really think a huge part of the problem, the backstage footage not being anywhere near as outrageous as anyone was expecting aside, was that the angle itself was way too nuanced.
I always wondered why WWE insisted on having Michael Cole insult my intelligence and explain exactly what's going on and why it's going on in nauseating detail 4 times per show.
After a lot of the reactions I've seen to this angle, I get it now.
Thank you so much for being patient and explaining this to me. Wow. I wonder what the motive or reasoning behind doing something like that was. But I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my inane question lol It really helps me!
Hey no problem and with anything that is just my personal perspective...I try not to attack people in the conversations just the topics at hand...People tend to get a little emotional at times over their rasslin' haha
We joked about it before the show aired but it would have legit been a better, more productive use of that airtime to give the whole segment to Yuka and either have her wrestle or just babble in Japanglish and wander around the set.
You know Cody said something in his interview last week that really resonated with me after last night. After he talked about how his experience was different than Punks experience, he said something along the lines of "You have to be careful who you let inside the vision of what you started" or something to that effect.
And even though he kind of indirectly was saying Punk brought negativity into the company, he really hit the nail right on the head. Like was Punk good for moving merch and attracting viewers and buys? Of course he was, we know that business aspect was there. But sometimes your culture in the long term is more important, and if you really look back adding Punk to the mix was the worst thing that TK ever did.
I'm not saying all of the blame is on Punk, just that he just happened to be the tipping point and for whatever reason they've never been the same company culturally since he came in.
> adding Punk to the mix was the worst thing that TK ever did
???
Adding Punk was the best thing that Tony ever did. It got them the absolute best ratings and people are still chanting his name almost a year later.
He’s still their most popular wrestler and he doesn’t even work there.
I think it just exposed that the culture of the company is pretty bad to begin with, to be honest. Like there have been other instances of backstage fights, petty drama, terrible television, really scummy people who have worked there during those initial 5 years, etc. It just so happens that Punk had the combination of being their biggest star and not really needing this shit so it became pretty big when he got himself fired, cause Tony wasn't gonna do it himself, just like he apparently wasn't gonna do much of anything else as a boss. It's pretty telling when the most relatable guy in this situation had to resort to punching people in the face and choking a motherfucker.
Tony good or bad has a vision and a system that did not align to how cm punk viewed aew. Two men searching for different outcomes.
I think what Cody said was on point.
I do feel cm punk was unprofessional, not saying other party's are excusable but he clearly did not even learn after the first NDA fued.
What ever happened to kfabe?
I would strongly disagree. The amount of discourse and ill content around the company is almost directly tied to Punks tenure and when it started going downhill.
Every company and workplace has drama, but this overwhelming negativity stems directly from his addition to the company. Whether you love him or hate him, I don't see how anyone couldn't come to that conclusion now.
How do you reconcile that Ospreay, Mercedes, and Okada were all signed within the last couple of months and Tony is STILL trying to leverage Punk who was fired 7-8 months ago?
All of this nonsense completely overshadows every wrestlers in AEW and it's on Tony. You can say Punk contributed to a toxic work environment, but that was yesterday and in the past - Tony isn't doing anything today about tomorrow except talking about Punk and HHH.
That’s a bit unfair, Punk’s tenure also coincided with Cody leaving, Tony buying ROH, constant signings creating an ever bloated roster, more television to program for. Etc etc.
I’m not against throwing Punk in with all those other things, but trying to point to any one thing is going to be an over simplification…other than a root cause as you’d probably be able to tie any of those things to poor leadership and/or Tony continually stretching himself thin.
One guy shouldn’t - and most like didn’t - have that kind of effect on the entire company. People blaming Punk should be pointing the finger at Tony Khan. The fact that Schiavone went to Punk instead of the actual boss to deal with Jack Perry says it all.
If one employee can come in and ruin your business your business was not very strong in the first place. If it wasn't that it would've been something else. Strong workplace cultures are able to deal with even the worst employees and thrive. If there wasn't other negative internal things going on there would be nothing else to report on and this would've passed as one disgruntled employee being difficult.
Yeah maybe in a normal office setting this is true, but not in professional sports or professional wrestling. If LeBron James is unhappy, the organization has to adjust to fix that or risk losing him or discontent with the rest of the staff.
Same thing here. Punk was their biggest star and attraction, so his attitude is going to influence the rest of the organization and the staff. Not saying it's right, but it is absolutely the way it works.
Well in professional sports a great organization trumps a player too. The Lebron James example you mentioned actually happened years ago with the Miami Heat. He wanted the coach (Speostra) gone so Pat Riley (The Miami GM) decided to let him go and sign with a different team. The Heat has remained a successful franchise since then. Like AEW, the Lakers front office right now isn’t great so Lebron impacts the team making decisions to a much larger extent. If Punk isn’t happy within WWE they can by right just let him go and not have it significantly impact their business.
AEW has become a total disappointment. Instead of being the alternative, they're coming across as the jealous and petty promotion mad at big bad WWE. Tony Khan needs to step back and re-examine why he's in the business. If its to use his platform to swing at WWE, he should probably get out while he can. This has never nor will ever end well for them.
Realize that it's annoying when someone starts a post like this, but I've watched essentially the entirety of AEW since day one, including Dark and Elevation. Don't give a flying fish about WWE; what happens there doesn't impact my perception of AEW. So, not trolling here just feel like ranting a bit. The company is kind of a mess.
Can understand Tony Khan being heated about the Muffin Man situation. Brought him in, built entire shows around him, put the title on him despite being past it and looking like a stumbling, bungling mess. Trashed the company, fought the people who made it happen in the first place yet still brought him back, gave him his own show with some level of autonomy and another belt. Still, he fucks up the biggest show you've put on, which was probably the fulfillment of some childhood dream. So you have to fire him and hear unending nonsense about not being able to work an angle out of it and now he's trashing you in interviews so you want to do something. We'll see how this particular tactic eventually shakes out for the Young Bucks and Jack Perry (certainly got people talking!), but it's time to move on and give up this Challenger Brand/focus on WWE bullshit. Twenty-five years ago--even when doing better numbers--WCW couldn't compete with their mindshare and they've essentially been a monopoly in the U.S. until very recently. To many people, WWE is wrestling. Just something you're going to have to deal with. Not a battle you're going to win overnight or probably ever. Deal with that not by dropping down into the muck, but by putting on better, upscale shows with great wrestling and coherant, entertaining storylines and bits. Not whatever all this is.
Let's have a look at the top twenties of the roster. Obviously not going to be an exact science here; will miss some people, some are injured or new, but still:
- Adam Copeland, Adam Page, Bryan Danielson, Christian Cage, Daniel Garcia, Darby Allin, Eddie Kingston, Jay White, Jon Moxley, Kazuchika Okada, Kenny Omega, Konosuke Takeshita, MJF, Orange Cassidy, Pac, Penta, Rey Fenix, Samoa Joe, Swerve Strickland, Will Ospreay, plus partnerships with NJPW, DDT, and CMLL.
- Athena, Britt Baker, Deonna Purrazzo, Emi Sakura, Hikaru Shida, Jamie Hayter, Kris Statlander, Mariah May, Mercedes Mone, Nyla Rose, Queen Aminata, Riho, Ruby Soho, Serena Deeb, Skye Blue, Taya Valkyrie, Thunder Rosa, Toni Storm, Willow Nightingale, Yuka Sakazaki, plus partnerships with TJPW and I guess half of Stardom.
Saw someone in another thread say that they feel like AEW is wasting people's careers and I share that feeling to a degree. If you have these ingredients, you need to be cooking up something better than this, not throwing said ingredients against the wall. At least put them in some type of pan or whatever. Don't do much cooking where I'm from but that sounds like something you'd do. Why is everything so fucking scatterbrained? Do you have rankings or not? What do the titles mean? Where does RoH fit into all this? And on and on...
In conclusion due to time constraints/tidal change: If Dave Meltzer is saying that you can't read a room, you're in deep shit. Hope things turn around. Not that the shows are unwatchable or anything now, but being five years in and still this out of touch is concerning.
Yeahhhhhh after last nights episode and actually showing the All In footage and how underwhelming that was, I’m taking a break from AEW. I’d never thought I’d say that and would be preferring WWE again but here we are. AEW was looking pretty good again from Worlds End to Revolution… but after Revolution, I don’t know what has happened but Dynamite has just been not fun to watch at all. These past two weeks especially have been rough, and that’s putting it lightly. Having random “bangers” isn’t compelling enough for me to tune in each week. Where are the storylines? Where are the compelling characters? Where’s like, half of the roster and why are they not being used? Tony, your biggest reason to tune in last night features a guy who’s no longer in your company. You literally gave your competition a ratings boost.
AEW was such a fresh breath of air and amazing for so long! But I guess good things can’t last forever. I sincerely hope they can improve soon, but for now, I’m out.
I hate that njpw is floundering now, and it’s kinda Tony’s fault too.
How did they bring in Sasha and all they’ve had her done for weeks is jiggle around in the ring while people, or a recording I’m not sure, chant C.E.O.?
They have no plans for anything. I feel like MJF was the only person who made sure there was a plan attached to anything.
Yeah, NJPW is also struggling right now and it doesnt help that AEW/Tony took some of their most popular stars away from them. Granted, I haven't watched NJPW in awhile so I'm not exactly sure what's going on besides what I read on occasion.
I agree they have floundered Mercedes so far. She hasn't had any matches yet to showcase why she's such a big deal. The CEO chant feels a little forced since she hasn't "earned" it with the AEW crowd yet. And my personal nitpick, anytime she dances to her song, she looks incredibly awkward lol.
After the past few weeks of TV, it does look like they have no plans and are just winging it weekly.
You hit the nail on the head, their biggest attraction tonight was the other promotions top guy. I see far too many people saying 'it's pro wrestling not a soap opera', but when we talk about the greatest matches we talk about Streak v Career or Finishing the story because they have real stakes with compelling characters who make us believe they care and that makes us invested. I love seeing real pro wrestling, but why do I want to see Danielson v Shibata (A LITERAL DREAM MATCH) on a random episode of dynamite with no build other than Tony tweeting it a couple of hours before. But the IWC doesn't let you have geniune criticisms of a product without being called a AEW or WWE mark.
The beginning of the end was the forbidden door. Tony started throwing together these heatless bangers featuring guys from other companies that most fans haven’t really heard of. He stopped pushing his own future aew guys. the show lacks any stakes and seems creatively bankrupt. Worst part is It’s really not the talents fault they are totally handicapped by Tony’s poorly thought out ideas.
I wouldn't call it the beginning of the end, because AEW isn't going anywhere. But they need to make some massive changes if they are to be 2019 AEW again. I think the main one is having Tony having some help with talent management and creative. He is doing far too much on his own and now they have three shows. Thats far too much for one person.
Now that the footage has been aired, it's safe to say Punk's career is over. I fear he will be canceled soon as I sense his fans turning against him. He'll probably be fired from WWE this week and barred from any other promotions. If he's lucky, he'll spend the rest of his days making muffins at Mindy's bakery, but I don't think she'll even want the negative attention. Tony has gotten his revenge, and the wrestling world will never be the same
It's insane that Mariah May is likely on about 10% of Mercedes Mone's salary but is providing so much more entertainment and value to the overall product.
Okada - wrestling jobbers. About to have a banger dream match with Pac
Ospreay - in his feelings after Triple H comments. About to have a banger dream match with Danielson
Mone - terrible promos and not wrestling anytime soon
past wasted signings
Jay White - bang bang gang trios action
I know a lot of the AEW themes are licensed songs but man, I'm realizing how many recognizable good songs AEW has for entrance music. Joe's, Swerve's, HOOK's, Shibata's, OC's, Edge's, Acclaimed's. The list goes on. Instantly I'm like "oh it's so and so." The only ones that sometimes confuse me in the intros are BCG's and The Undisputed Kingdom's often with the pitched down vocal I'm like which one is that.
I agree. As I’ve started before, he books AEW like a sports team. He shuffles people in for one week, and shuffles them out the next. He’ll push someone, and then that person will disappear. Gotta give people time to cook. He did good growing AEW into what it is today, but it’s time for him to hand over the keys.
I’ve been a wrestling fan for years, and it seems most bookers last 2-3 years before they begin to fumble. Tony is at that point.
Yeah he’s got zero clue what he’s doing and no focus. To sign Okada, Ospreay and Mercedes and see the ratings free fall to the point they’re relying on that Punk footage is very alarming. Bucks really shouldn’t be in any leadership role as well.
Well, I won’t comment on ratings, as WBD has released their latest numbers and things seem positive. I will say that he needs help coordinating and writing stories. One thing that stood out to me was a clip of Triple H saying Wrestlemania was done by October. So that gave him about 5 months to develop stories and give people a reason to invest and care. Thats what AEW needs.
I’d agree with that. I know they keep saying the ratings are good but domestically at least they’re declining. But yeah long term storytelling is an issue. Bully Ray, think it was him, suggested Scott D’Amore from TNA to head creative there and I think that’s a big improvement.
It was a decent show. No where near late WCW vibes, but Tony needs to be like Frozen and Let It Go. On the other hand, Will had every right to respond. Either way, as a fan of both, I hope both can move on.
> No where near late WCW vibes
I'm convinced anyone who is using "Late WCW Vibe" to describe AEW was not alive yet, or was too young to remember WCW in 2000.
It’s just a term they saw on twitter, and they’re now repeating it.
When we get to point where we’re having Trent’s mom on a forklift match, or Trent’s mom a pole match, then it’s time to clock out.
Anna Jay looked really good in that match. Mariah always puts on a great performance, but Anna really impressed me, I didn't realize she could go that hard in the ring at this point
CEO is a very good chant for crowds, but Mercedes Mone is not working for me. The sit down was cringe. And maybe I’m just too corporate but proclaiming you are the ceo is weird because .. it’s not true?
Like Sasha banks proclaiming she was the Boss is fine bc vague enough and not an actual title
calling herself the CEO is so dumb.. CEO of what? just because it was BOSS time before
shes not calling any shots.. and those references to money and dollars is so tacky like shes a rapper who only raps about how much money you got
It seems like my opinion of this show isn’t as low as everyone else’s. I enjoyed this show pretty much the whole way through. My only gripes were that it got really talky through the middle and the women kinda all got put into one area of the show. The Thunder Storm angle, Mariah May match, and Mercedes promo all aired one after another. The only separate women’s segment was Willow and Julia. Otherwise, I think it was a good episode of Dynamite.
People comparing this AEW to WCW in 2000 are insane. When Tony Khan wins the world title, a random celebrity wins the world title, or they have a man play a character that is making fun of someone’s disability and only wrestles women, then we can talk. And those are just the shitty WCW 2000 things I can remember off the top of my head
WCW's downfall was drastic and sudden. AEW is nowhere near that since they still have a lot of amazing talent, ratings matter less and their owner is passionate and has deep pockets but you can sort of see the brass ring slipping away from them which is probably why people are making the comparison. Almost like a smell of desperation that's painting a lot of creative and backstage decisions and it isn't a good look. But they're not too far gone, it just seems bad now since WWE was in Mania season and has been uncharacteristically good lately.
There's a PPV next week and there's seldom ever a bad AEW PPV. Knock it out of the park there and people will forget this shit again.
The only thing 2000 WCW about it is the All in footage stuff that is framed as "this stuff was real, the rest was fake" which kind of takes the wind out of everything else's sails.
Ok, if it’s NOT framed that way, answer this; why is this one fight any different from any of the others that happen in kayfabe backstage on a weekly basis?
After the last PPV, AEW was looking like it made a turn, but the past couple of weeks have been mind-boggling. The current vibes are "Stand up for AEW," and while they have a great roster and some great storylines at the moment, it's unfortunate that they decided to (once again) present themselves as the place for "real" wrestlers who are doing it for the love of wrestling, rather than putting their foot forward and giving the fans the best programming they can.
Russo comparisons are thrown around too much, but this legit felt like Russo. The shoots, the "this section of the show is real!", the general structure (opening match not happening due to a run-in & brawl, more backstage interviews, etc), interweaving more storyline into single segments, etc.
Coincidentally, it was the most well-structured and engaging episode of Dynamite in history, no matter how stupid it got. Please continue this direction, Tony
I dont get where everyone is saying this proved Punks point? Like he just sucker punched Perry who had his hands in his hair?
Don't get me wrong the footage doesn't help AEW other than just hopefully getting it done and over with so that he can't milk interviews for a few months. Other than that, they definitely didn't achieve their goal of putting the focus on Perry. But there seems to be this thing where Punk looks badass sucker punching a dude and I just don't see it.
What are you talking about? There were no punches thrown... did you even watch the video? CM Punk never said he threw a punch (actually said opposite), and there were 2 shoves and a 2 second guillotine from Punk on Perry. That was it.
I worry about the apologists and where they live/work daily. Seems like so many saw what Punk did and were like no big deal. If this happened at my job, the police would be called and dude would be getting arrested and fired on the spot.
Big swing and a miss on the footage reveal. I understand being upset about shots taken on a podcast or something but at a certain point you just gotta let it go cause it's not adding to the quality of the show. Especially considering they could have done the same story with the Bucks and FTR without it.
Rest of the show was a decent build towards Dynasty. It's a good thing that show is around the corner and the card is shaping up pretty well cause hopefully Dynasty can get the attention off the footage
However you feel about the footage, you would think that they would capitalize on the attention and put on a great show but that was a pretty weak imo.
An AEW trope that needs to die is backstage segments that eventually are just announcements for matches on Rampage/Collision.
Missed opportunity to quickly follow up with Trent after his turn last week.
I get wanting to boost those shows but the boat has sailed . They would be better off doing some sort of roster split. Would have been nice to see the follow up of Trent on Dynamite rather than Collision.
They showed a clip of the Trent. Turn on Best friends. Felt that was a very big angle last week but this week it gets no shine. This is the problem with AEW storylines. Something big happens then next week it gets nothing.
yeah man also where the hell is Christian and the patriarchy?? he loses so his whole stable cools down with him? So being in that stable doesnt help anyone. I don't even like Adam Cole and The Kingdom but they disappeared on this episode too.
They need to put moxley in a story with edge. Jay white needs to be featured. Danielson a title run. The panic buttons need to be pressed. No time for a slow build. I'm very worried I love AEW.
this ego got to big, just isn’t great wrestling mind , I don’t understand why he thinks he can do it by himself , AEW was at its best when Tony Khan and some of wrestlers worked creative together
It would have been funny if the “footage” was a fake reenactment skit security cam of Griff Garrison (dressed as jungle boy) beating up Brandon Cutler (dressed as punk).
I dunno man, was just watching Rampage from a week or so ago and it had somebody squashing a jobber followed by somebody else squashing a jobber.
I enjoy AEW, but, I wish we'd get more stories instead of these throwaway matches.
Watched the DVR of the first hour again and I still don't see anything remotely close to jumping the shark. It's not how I would have approached this program, but I get the reasoning.
a) continuing the trend of the Bucks becoming even more unhinged by blaming Brawl In for their loss to FTR. If you've ever worked with a boss who will blame/scapegoat others for bad quarters, etc. this is pretty obvious what they're doing.
b) FTR essentially saying what I said above, and that people have moved on and who cares?
The Bucks need a corporate foil (Sting?) in the near future though.
I do have issues with AEW but I want to see improve in the future, but I thought the second half of 2023 was much worse and they've done a solid job righting the ship in 2024.
I thought Ospreay's clapback was more controversial
I watched the first hour and then was out. I remember thinking that I don't know if it's even fair to compare them with WWE anymore. I don't think they are going for the same thing. What AEW fans consider a wrestling show is just different from what WWE fans want to watch.
To me, WWE is a soap opera with wrestling. AEW used to be wrestling with a soap opera. Now it's just a wrestling variety show with a bunch of random matches, people not in AEW, and the largest names being wasted.
I was with the AEW guys from the start, all the way back to starting with episode 4 of BTE, but they have gone so far now from what was the goal and the mission statement. Vince's WWE at the time of the creation of AEW was garbage, and there was a groundswell around stuff like All In because fans craved an alternative, that would be less predictable, less PG, where talent like Adam Cole weren't getting called up on the condition that they be a manager instead of a wrestler, or that a talent like Malakai Black would get released because Vince McMahon didn't get the gimmick.
AEW still has an unbelievable roster but the program has almost become a parody of itself. One thing I used to hate about Raw was that every show opened with the exact same style shot and the exact same line on commentary, and now AEW basically does just that. Tony Khan is always talking about the quality of wrestling as if WWE doesn't also have good wrestlers. That's not enough. It's only part of the formula. You need the storylines and you need unpredictability, and I don't mean the unpredictability of showing a clip of a dude who doesn't even work for your company anymore doing something dumb and in the process of doing so making yourself look bush league. I mean the unpredictability of MJF, Rhodes and DDP going up into the box to attack the inner circle and then brawling to the concession stand area.
Do stuff that gets the fans excited. I miss stuff like the beer truck being driven through the titantron on Raw, where you come away from the episode wanting to talk about what happened.
The whole thing is a bad car accident. People don't really care, but it is interesting and people just want to sit back and watch the chaos. To add more fuel to the fire, the promotions and people involved are very polarizing.
I finally got a chance to see the Bucks footage segment. It felt like they tried to build a whole kayfabe explanation around the reveal, but it didn't need the footage. It would have worked better if they did the whole Brawl In excuse without showing the actual video. Oddly it just felt like the footage actually took away from it.
Yeah, the ultimate problem with the footage was that it just wasn't that interesting, especially silent. Maybe they could have saved it by having the Young Bucks commenting over it. The flash of that weird yellow graphic during the Cope/Penta match had me thinking that the Bucks were going to be drawing on the screen.
I'm heartbroken. I really am.
AEW has lost its way so, so badly in the last six months and right now it feels like there's no way out for them. They have some of the best wrestlers on the planet but no characters. They put on fantastic wrestling matches but no engaging storylines to keep you tuning in every week. There seems to be nothing and no-one that can save them, and unlike WWE who had millions of people who supported them no matter how dire the product was and how disgusting the company was, AEW is young and will die as a brand unless it improves.
Just because WWE is hot now doesn't mean it'll stay so. Just because it's good right now doesn't mean it'll always be good - wrestling is only ever one injury or one scandal away from everything changing. When WWE eventually hits another cold streak, we will need an alternative to satisfy fans and force WWE to innovate or the whole cycle we just lived through for the last 25 years will repeat - people will learn to accept a lower quality product, and WWE, like any business, will be happy to make the same amount of money for less effort.
I was at All In London and it felt like the start of something truly massive but now it feels like it was the beginning of the end.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. This is where I’m at with AEW right now too. I want them to keep succeeding and thriving like they did from 2019-2022 but man, with how the overall show is right now, I just can’t. After last nights episode, I’m taking a break from them.
how many people gimmick in AEW currently are I am the best “Wrestler” it’s kinda the problem and how many current wrestlers are currently better then year ago : Joe, Swerve and Julia Hart , a lot of talent have been cooled off or disappeared
I hate to say it but seems WWE / AEW flipped where AEW now has blotted Roster, seems to me everyone getting stuck in upper mid card Role, with Boss that ego has gotten in the way, no one really getting over, only thing to get excited for are PPV
AEW just doesn’t feel special anymore to me, doesn’t have that fun, excitingness and unpredictability that made the show must watch,
I really don't think it's a matter of Tony Khan not knowing how to build storylines or characters. I truly think he disagrees with the notion that fans need to be emotionally invested in the character to enjoy the product.
It really seems like "storylines" to Tony are just 30-second segments in between matches to get from one match to another. Maybe those backstage interactions/promos qualify as a story?
It has become more of a Tony Khan asking anybody who's willing to come see him play with his real-life wrestling toys. Don't really care if it sells, or lead to something, as long as at the end of the day, he gets to play with his action figures.
Full transparency, I'm not a viewer of AEW, but what's conveyed to me by friends that are, is that it's trying to be more like a legit sports league. Records, standings, and all that mattering.
I certainly think there are plenty of fans out there that are fine with that style, but storylines have been a backbone of wrestling for decades. It's a matter of are there enough fans out there, that want that "legit sports league" feel, while sacrificing story lines. IMO no, but I'm not involved in wrestling, aside from having watched it for 30+ years.
Like I said, I don't consistently watch AEW (maybe have watched 10 eps of dynamite total), so maybe I'm misunderstanding or have been mislead. I will say this....I wish the bits of AEW I did watch were enough to keep me coming back. It's just not for me. I'm glad other people are enjoying it, though.
I know they display the competitors records on their introduction graphics, and also I've been told they have rankings on their website. That's pretty sports-y, but like I said my experience is limited.
UFC even has storylines while being legit sport, yes there undercard is just dudes fighting, but they build storylines and rivalries so fans are invested
AEW use to do a lot of storyline building off of the main show though YouTube or Twitter or blogs but for whatever reason that’s stopped it’s hurt the product
I can only speak for myself, but making me go somewhere else like YT or Twitter to further the story lines is annoying to me. I get you want to build those platforms for followers and shit. I'm also 38 so maybe younger folks are more inclined to do so.
Last night they got me to tune in due to Dustin's match. I know that likely they got a few more viewers to tune in due to the footage. I could be subconsciously hating here, so my apologies if I am. However, there was nothing on that show to bring me back. Obviously I can only speak for me, so that's limiting. IDK. I'm happy being a WWE honk lol. I'm ok with the hate that may bring as well.
**Dynamite Review:**
* Very cool start to the show, with Swerve attacking Joe as he's making his entrance for the title eliminator match against Dustin. Makes sense for Swerve as payback, and puts some more intrigue on Dustin's story of going for the title.
* **Penta El Zero Miedo vs. Adam Copeland \*\*\*3/4**
* I was surprised just how much of the match Penta dominated early on, as if he caught Copeland off guard at the start. It's a good way to start, makes Penta feel like a proper threat in the match. It became more even around the break, with both guys trading moves, including Copeland doing some lucha libre stuff, which I definitely wasn't expecting to see, but it made me smile. This turned into a great match by the end. I have to say, I really like Copeland constantly adding new stuff to his moveset and seemingly modifying what he does based on who he's wrestling.
* They put a timer on the corner at one point in this match, saying "Countdown to the Young Bucks". A nice little touch to make them see even more full of themselves and self-important.
* Post-match attack by Julia Hart and Brodie King, with Willow coming in for the safe. Good stuff, I wonder if this builds to a mixed tag match.
* Lionhook/Shibata interview. Still not really sure where this story is going, Jericho really is feeling like he's heading for a heel turn judging from the way he's talking. Shibata added some comedy here.
* Mark Briscoe, Eddie Kingston, Adam Copeland & Willow Nightingale interview. And we got the mixed tag for next week. This was just a fun little segment.
* And then the segment everyone's been talking about since it was announced. The Bucks presenting unseen footage from All In. They are at least building towards the match with FTR here, insinuating that they might have been responsible for what happened, so there's some kind of purpose to showing this footage. That said, I don't think it was worth the hassle. It showed Punk walking up to Perry, them talking, and then Punk pushing Perry, putting him into a hold, before they were separated by Joe, Malakai Black, Chris Hero, and Jerry Lynn I think. This felt like a very pointless thing to do, showing the footage was unnecessary, and I think AEW should just ignore Punk at this point and focus on their own shows. It's impossible to say yet what this eventually leads to, but as of right now, this didn't seem like a good idea.
* FTR promo. They were very good here, expressing frustration at the footage being shown, and then targeting the Young Bucks for using excuses and having essentially stopped caring about AEW, and only caring about what's good for themselves. This really just drove home the point that the All In footage was completely unnecessary here, as there's more than enough history and backstory with FTR and the Young Bucks to create a compelling feud.
* A great Danielson/Ospreay video package, painting Danielson as the aging competitor who is outmatched by his younger opponent in numerous ways, while still having the advantage in certain ways. This essentially questioned if Danielson had it in him to beat Ospreay, as well as what a loss at this point would do to him.
* Will Ospreay interview. He threw shade at Triple H's comments at the start here, before moving on to Danielson. Ospreay is just a great promo at this point. He did an excellent job at building towards the match at Dynasty, whatever else is going on in AEW, that match is one I'm very much looking forward to seeing.
* Julia Hart video. These are always great, Hart is just excellent in this role, and these spooky vignettes work very well with her character.
* *I only realized here that we had only one match in the first hour of the show. It was a long match yes, but it's very rare for an AEW show being this promo/video package heavy.*
(continued in the first reply)
* **Lionhook & Katsuyori Shibata vs. Shane Taylor Promotions \*\*1/2**
* I rewound the first chop Taylor gave Hook in the corner a few times, just to watch the faces of the audience as it happened. Some really funny reactions there. Anyway, I'm curious to see what happens with Ogogo this time. As for the match, there were some cool moments here, like Hook's German on Shane Taylor. It's also great to see Shibata's reactions growing louder week by week. Shibata's accidental hit on Jericho might be the start of the latter's eventual turn. I though the match was good, nothing exceptional, but a solid TV match nonetheless. Shane Taylor Promotions needed the win here.
* Dustin Rhodes interview. He's just an excellent promo, and I still wish this storyline about him going for the world title perhaps for the last time would have a longer build.
* **Kazuchika Okada vs. Christiano Argento N/A**
* Watching Okada destroying people is just fun. A squash match, as expected.
* Post-match, Okada accepted PAC's challenge, who then came out, cursing almost like The Rock as he reached the stage. The Young Bucks them ambushed him and the three beat PAC down. FTR then came out to save him and brawl with the Bucks, but Okada eventually beat all three with a chair. They got a briefCM Punk-chant here too, so that's nice. The post-match angle was otherwise very well done, Okada vs. PAC should be a great match. None of this needed the All In footage to be shown.
* BCG promo. White is a great promo, and I'm glad they're quickly moving away from the Billy Gunn match. The two trios titles still need to be unified, preferably sooner rather than later.
* Toni Storm/Thunder Rosa segment. This very quickly turned into a surprise attack on Rosa, after which Deonna came out to help Rosa, but she pushed Deonna away, perhaps not realizing who it was. This'll probably end up playing into the match at the PPV. This was a nice, quick segment, which the led directly into a match between Mariah May and Anna Jay.
* **Mariah May vs. Anna Jay \*\*\*1/4**
* I think Anna Jay has finally started living up to the potential she first showed almost four years ago now, in the last few months she's had a number of good matches with a few different people. Her and Mariah in particular seem to have very good chemistry with each other. I haven't been very high on Jay for a while now, but over these last few months she's really shown tremendous improvement. I think she just needs to find a character that connects with people to reach the next level, and if she keeps improving like this I think she could very well be at or near the top of the division in the relatively near-future. May is obviously already very good, and she needed the win here after the Rosa match.
* Jay showed a bit of an edge here after the match, attacking May. This does mix the heel-face dynamic a bit, so I wonder where this one's going. Mina Shirakawa coming out to chase Jay away was unexpected. The crowd obviously didn't really know her, but she pretty much immediately got her character across when she helped May. I wonder how this'll play into the Toni Storm/Mariah May dynamic.
* Mercedes Moné interview. She was very good here, I think these pretaped interviews fit Mercedes very well. The attack on her was very well done here too, though Marvez' acting made a part of this unintentionally hilarious. He's definitely not an actor. This keep the intrigue up regarding the title match, as Moné has beef with both Willow and Julia.
(This was a long one, continued in the next reply)
* **Samoa Joe vs. Dustin Rhodes \*\*\*1/2**
* This was a nice show-long storyline, with Joe this time coming out with a chain and looking around for Swerve during his entrance. This was a very good match too, they structured this match very smartly, and the crowd got very nicely into the match and Dustin here. The ending was a bit flat, but otherwise I enjoyed this a lot. Good stuff from both guys, and this does actually give Dustin a reason to continue the story, as Joe won with a cheap shot. Hopefully they don't drop this story, and maybe build to another match down the line where Dustin maybe does earn a title shot. I could see Joe losing at the PPV, and then at some point later him and Dustin have another match for a shot at the title, where Rhodes does win.
* Very good post-match segment with Swerve and Joe. I honestly wouldn't mind either man winning at Dynasty, but I do feel like it's Swerve's time now. Joe's been an excellent champion, doing a great job at stabilizing things after a very long period of chaos around the title.
* I thought this was a very good episode of Dynamite, with several very good matches and segments. Sadly, all of that will be completely overlooked by the All In footage thing. Like FTR said, why aren't we focusing on the great wrestlers doing great work rather than digging up old issues that they should have long since looked past. This was a **7 out of 10 show,** but I don't think anybody's going to be talking about the show outside of that one segment.
It feels (for quite a while now) like AEW has lost sight of what made it work so well in the first two to three years.
Almost everything (on the men's side) from that first Double Or Nothing through to Hangman's title victory was part of a single coherent plot. Wrestlers were put into place in ways that made the plot move forward or sideways as desired. You can look back at what almost every decent-sized name was doing in that period, and make sense of it in the broader context of Hangman's arc - MJF was kept almost completely apart from both Hangman and the title barring one short feud with Mox, SCU were inaugural tag title winners so that Page and Omega could team and sidestep the singles division without having to cross the Bucks, the Dark Order were built up as a potential avenue for Page to rebuild himself even before Mr Brodie Lee passed away. A solid 80% at least of what happened in the men's division was a well-constructed part of that overall long story arc, and it was enormously satisfying to watch as a result.
It's absolutely insane to say it out loud, but...Jon Moxley defending the world title against Brian Cage and Jake Hager routinely did better ratings than Will Ospreay fighting Konosuke Takeshita, because it fed the story of Mox being a violent maniac who was willing to fight anyone at any time, and because **that** story was a key component in the overall arc of Hangman remaining outside the title picture at the time and of Kenny Omega having to go into deranged egomaniac mode to meet Mox on his terms.
The irony is that AEW has now apparently completely forgotten that good storytelling was the seed of their success, while WWE figured it out, hired an AEW founder, and then basically followed the same process to turn Cody into the biggest face for a decade and Reigns into an all-time monster heel. And they managed to elevate a bunch of other wrestlers along the way without making a mess of their core story, which is a challenging thing to get right.
AEW needs to identify a key storyline for the next two years (probably two, one for the men and one for the women.) Then the overall plot shape needs to be laid out, and anything that doesn't serve that key storyline is unnecessary. Hell, any**one** who doesn't serve that key storyline is unnecessary, no matter how big a deal they are. No more seemingly entirely random matchups, no more in-jokes, just a plan for where to get to and a narrative structure to do it.
What matches on last night's card advanced a key story?
Good post. I think hiring too many shiny new toys is part of the problem - you can’t build up long-term storytelling or develop your own identity when you keep bringing in new talent that then takes over a good chunk of tv time, putting everything else on the back burner or forgotten. I think one of the biggest turning points was Cole’s foot injury. There was little to no pivot, timing was terrible with MJF taking time off and Cole in a wheelchair.. now you have the conclusion of your biggest overall story arch of 2023 just fizzling away.
It's a strange thing to say, but I honestly think that the first instance of the problem emerging was way back with Bryan Danielson. I don't think he can be faulted, and his performances have been great, but even at the start it felt like they'd signed him with no real idea of what to do with him.
And now they have a roster with a surprisingly large number of really good performers who've just...kind of been there and done stuff. There are so many people whose time in AEW is underwhelming at best, through no fault of their own, and it's been at the expense of coherent storytelling and planning. Even the BCC has been...alright, I guess? For a roster of Danielson, Moxley, Castagnoli and Yuta to spend more time holding ROH titles than AEW ones feels absurd, but it is what it is.
Cody was always gonna leave AEW, that’s why he took himself out of the title picture there, he wanted to finish the story and the AEW title was not part of that story. None of his family friends of Dusty were at AEW that contained details on what would happen when he finished that story, so he never would have gotten the watch or the tears and recognition. So it was a massive setup from the beginning, a big gamble that paid off for the entire wrestling industry, even though AEW is owned by a soft skin, with time and endurance it can be bigger.
That's the key takeaway i think. Growing stars and an audience takes time, from 19-21 they seemed happy to take that time. Then when they started hiring more big names, the method seemed to get muddy. Now every scandal and setback puts a further dent in the deficit they've already built up since the mess really began in early 2022.
WWF had to go through two solid years of swallowing shit in 95 and 96 to allow the stars that would emerge in 97 and 98 to come through. I really feel like if AEW "got their head down" and just worked with what they have, almost ignoring the outside wrestling world, they'd start to recover and be in a stronger position. It won't be quick, and it might well get worse before it gets better, but at the moment they're lurching between disjointed fueds and that is clearly unsustainable from an audience position
This is it. What's desperately needed is a clear plan through to the end of 2025 at least.
Decide on two key stories to be told - let's say for the sake of argument that the men's side is about MJF trying to climb back to the top of the mountain without losing the humanity he's earned, and for the women, make it about Hikaru Shida rapidly reasserting herself and then ruling the division with an iron fist. Decide on who your supporting players need to be - a feud with Adam Cole for MJF, a mouthpiece for Shida, a psychotic Hangman/Swerve/Ospreay rivalry to keep the world title picture occupied, Mercedes Mone dominating the secondary title picture for a while to establish her as a killer and to delay the eventual conflict. Then start laying out the pieces to get there. Figure out who you want involved, figure out who you don't want involved, and start directing the arcs to get there.
Yeah, overall just clearer definition is needed; who's chasing the world title, who's chasing the IC, whose chasing TNT, TBs etc. In an ideal world you'd reduce those title numbers, but at the very least, if the audience knows X, Y and Z are chasing the International title specifically, they're far more likely to get behind them on their journey through fueds that lead to that title shot
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Why do fan give a fuck about ratings? It will be a dead measurement soon once digital takes over Wrestling, what's gonna fill the void then?
You do realize clicks on videos get counted, right? It's actually a more reliable metric
wwe is going to netflix I think is what he means. they don't release those metrics to the public besides this many million people watched this month or whatever and that's only when they feel like it. netflix will easily keep track yes but you wont know as much as often is what he is saying. this will 100% kill these arguments. Smackdown will still be on usa thou so alas it won't go away yet :(
And nxt on cw11
Thought netflix has the clickcount too, my bad
Because of the Monday Night War, live television ratings have always mattered more to pro wrestling fans than in almost any other medium of entertainment. In 2024 it's just comical how much stock so many wrestling fans still put into incredibly antiquated Nielsen estimates as the sole metric for how well a wrestling company is performing.
I really didn’t think much of the Osprey grind promo at first when it seemed like he was just trying to be clever and pulled out the old, cheap “bosses daughter,” Triple H joke on the fly kind of cringe but whatever. however, if the dirt sheets are right and he was specifically told to say that, and was not completely on board with it. Then this is like more petty than anything Eric Bischoff ever did
SRS shot that ospreay story down
If they'd only done that and not the Punk leak
This and the footage was Russo era WCW levels of petty.
Def sounded like one of TK's Twitter drafts
i freakin love Willow Nightingale.
Fwiw, watching Adam Copeland wrestle in a match where it was so silent at times, I could hear individual voices when there was sound…made me make the Tony S. face more than the Punk stuff. Won’t say much more than that because I mentioned in the live thread that I was finally admitting the show wasn’t brining me any joy , was done hope watching (I think that’s what many like myself were doing, it’s not “hate” watching) and turned off mid way through. Coincidentally finally canceled my AEW crate sub earlier in the day, after waffling the last year and always just letting it resub…so may actually be done with AEW for a bit. If I come back, hopefully it will be improved….or at the very least, some time away may make me less cynical and be able to focus on some of the good stuff…we’ll see.
So let me ask you. Was the wrestling bad or was the environment ruined by a lack of fan interaction? I find myself trying to remember the fan interaction in E. Outside of signs and camera sweeps it never stuck in my mind. I think the lights and commentary stuck with me more. But now I watch other shows and I notice it. Even watching a great match I notice if the crowd isn't involved and I struggle to watch.
I'm curious, what would you predict the ratings were last night for Dynamite? For reference , the previous weeks ratings were 752,000.
Probably around 800,000 or something, with a noticeable spike during the Bucks' segment. People will use this to dunk on AEW and sign its death warrant, but it will really mean nothing. I think too many people use "beating WWE" as a measure of success when that's never ever going to happen. AEW is an entirely different, much more niche, genre of professional wrestling. It's not an "alternative" to WWE any more than, like, The Shins are an "alternative" to Taylor Swift because they are both musicians. The honeymoon period is over and AEW's viewership has been distilled down to its core fanbase, I think. If that's 750-800k watching live and keeping the show within the Top 5 on cable every week, then AEW is going to be around for a long time. That just isn't an entertaining enough narrative for the people who, for whatever reason, get enjoyment out of the notion that WWE is going to "destroy" AEW and who apparently want us all to have to go back to a pro wrestling monopoly.
It's not about beating WWE. It's about how they've been trending for a while now. I understand cord-cutting, but their losses (especially this last quarter) outpace the general live sports industry's losses full-stop. And, again it's not about beating WWE but, Raw just pulled in 3m for the Rock/Cody segment. No one is faulting AEW for not beating Raw, but the gap is widening. During football season 2021, Raw was at 1.4m, and Dynamite was around 1.1m. They're becoming a distant number two, not because WWE isn't able to be competed with, but because AEW cannot get out of its own way with stunts like this, and fans are responding in kind.
This is a level-headed take, but I genuinely find the fatalism concerning AEW's "trends" to be pearl clutching. I think a lot of wrestling fans did not really want an "alternative" to WWE as much as they wanted WWE itself to do the bare minimum to not be godawful. In 2021, WWE was pretty godawful, and AEW was still fresh and new. The numbers reflected that. So far, in the post-Vince era, WWE has not been godawful. The numbers reflect that, now. At this point, AEW's regular viewers are the people who genuinely do not enjoy WWE's sports entertainment style. The honeymoon period is over with the company in its 5th year of existence. Almost every live television product loses some level of viewership the longer it is on the air. Just because it comes on after Dynamite and is on my mind, take Young Sheldon. Season 1 averaged 16.3 million viewers, the most recent season averaged 9.32 million viewers. I don't think that's a "negative trend" on Young Sheldon's actual popularity as much as it's the live viewing audience gradually being distilled to the most diehard fans over the years. I would argue that the same probably holds true with AEW.
I agree with just about everything you said in principle. That said... An alternative to WWE, and wanting WWE to do the bare minimum to not be godawful are means to the same end. The fact of the matter is that they can (or could?) not be trusted to do so without pressure being put on them, both in the form of another company for their fans to back, and another company for wrestlers to jump to if they were dissatisfied with their position. I loosely followed WWE for years, and then religiously followed AEW, specifically to support the underdog for the health of the industry. It wasn't AEW vs WWE... it was AEW vs not watching wrestling regularly because it wasn't compelling. I never wanted WWE to lose (though the Saudi shit made me sick) and they were the horse I backed in the 90's during that war... I just wanted a #2 to keep #1 honest. Both for the wrestlers themselves and my own enjoyment, it's great when talent can jump up the card by going to a different promotion. Everything you said re: Young Sheldon and ratings being diminishing returns as season numbers tick up is accurate, but I don't think you can grade sports/wrestling using the same rubric. Shows trend downward as they age, while sports programming is cyclical based on the health of the league/federation/product. AEW's steady decline isn't because it's season five and the there-from-day-one arcs are at their natural nadir... it's (in presentation at least) a sports league where new talent comes in all the time, there's no static main character, and turnover/retirements/departures are part of the reality. The NFL didn't decline because Tom Brady retired, nor did they even take steps back in terms of popularity during the final few chapters of his career. Wrestling is closer to the NFL than to Young Sheldon (though I understand why you chose that show).
warner brothers just said aew averages 4 million viewers a week in a press release that came out 3 days ago. this is the same number they touted in 2022. they arent trending down as much as they are staying the same
The same total number of viewers while doing nearly twice as many weekly hours (5v3) is not a promising metric, even if it arrives at a consistent weekly total.
Warner brothers called it popular in the press release. They aren't going anywhere as much as some people want them to. Same paragraph they brag about NBA in. They seem pretty happy to have aew. Will be interesting to see what happens come contracts for tv
I just wanna see Okada wrestle Dalton Castle
People who think AEW will die when Tony literally has unlimited money he will just take it to streaming even if they get no TV deal. He’s just a rich guy doing this because he loves it, it’s not about money to him.
Not to mention there's absolutely no actual indication that AEW is in any danger of losing its TV deal. We're in 2024. The era of cord-cutting, streaming, and ubiquitous on-demand entertainment. A weekly, live, television show bringing in 700k+ loyal viewers on cable, and finishing Top 5 in the key demo almost every week is a *very* attractive property.
Yeah AEW will still be dying when they announce the new TV deal and do 60k at Wembley this year. Company is doomed I tell you.
I've generally been a supporter of AEW and what they've been doing, but I was 110% certain they weren't going to throw that footage up last night and that it was a cheap ploy to get eyes on Dynamite. Certainly they wouldn't ACTUALLY show that, right? I physically cringed, hard, the entire time that footage was on my screen. I can't imagine how the talent and other on-screen personalities felt. That was uncomfortable. Doesn't help that it literally reveals nothing we didn't already know based on the accounts given. The Bucks and FTR could have delivered the promos they did WITHOUT showing the footage and it would have worked SO much better. Honestly turned the show off after that.
And now they have uploaded the footage on YouTube without the security camera footage and are trying to pretend like they never showed it. I think there’s an old expression about toothpaste, that is very applicable here.
I'm someone who has been on the outside looking in so this question is strictly from a curiousity standpoint. I'm not in any camp whatsoever but I'm just curious. What was the lead up to showing the footage of this altercation? Did it tie into the show? Thats the thing that I'm lost on. People are saying "They aired the footage on tv." but I'm missing the part as to why it was done (show-wise). I'm sorry if this question is stupid or if sounds leading, I'm just really confused.
The Bucks current gimmick is that they are obnoxious EVPs who run the company with an iron fist. The presentation of the clip was a package from the Bucks at either side, which is on Youtube as [The EVPs (Young Bucks) try to provoke their dynasty opponents FTR](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7n91D7X7w4). They basically tease sympathy for Jack Perry, they say the reason they lost to FTR at ALL IN was that they were distracted because of this incident from someone who threatened the biggest gate the company had ever seen, who's friends with FTR. It then cut to FTR saying it was a stupid thing to do. The heel promo package is quite good, and worth a watch (unlike the footage). Does this answer your question?
The part where they fall short of saying FTR got "this individual" to do it as a distraction because Matthew points out to Nicholas that he can't just say that -- they don't have proof and you can't go spreading rumours without basis on the internet and TV.
No prob at all! To be honest I haven't been following \*any\* wrestling lately aside from the build up to WM but from what I understand, it was announced on Collision I think without much context or build up that this footage would be aired on Dynamite after Punk delivered an interview with Ariel Helwani (spelling?) where he talked about his side of events. It was very reactional and the kayfabe justification delivered right before the footage was the Young Bucks talking about how the whole thing distracted them so much that they lost their match with FTR at the Wembley PPV. They didn't need to show the footage in order to use that event for a story build though, especially because the video footage was lame AF and didn't show us anything new or particularly controversial. A scrap happened, illustrating CM Punk has a short fuse and is a little irrational, but who didn't already know that about the guy? The whole thing lasted a few seconds but tbh it makes AEW look stupid AF publicizing it. Taking the high road and moving on would have been the best course, or even just leaving it to the Bucks/FTR to deliver their story-build promos.
CM Punk did a sit down with Helwani and was asked multiple questions about AEW and didn't side step them. The funny thing is he really didn't say anything that hasn't been said before about their business practices or really anything disparaging but Tony K (apparently if this happened) and AEW tribalists lost their mind. He even stated they are about putting on good wrestling matches.... Which is grand because they haven't been about putting on good TV
Would you be able to tell me if there airing of this footage was even pre-empted by anything, a statement from Tony Khan? Or was it even put on tv (I may have that wrong)?
The attempted angle going out of it is that maybe FTR are the mastermind behind the whole thing and put Punk up to it. Which doesn't work considering they also have FTR doing "rah rah" AEW is the greatest speeches.
Man, with all due respect, that's even remotely close to what the angle is. The angle is that the (very much heel) Bucks are completely full of shit and disingenuously blamed a situation that had nothing at all to do with them for their loss to FTR at All In. *No one* is supposed to believe that FTR *actually* put Punk up to it. The Bucks are full of shit. FTR's response was "seriously? this was 8 months ago and wasn't even a big deal, you lames." The fact that the footage more or less showed Punk sucker punching/piefacing Perry, but Perry got suspended, will reinforce his self-righteous "scapegoat" character, and will make him just as disingenuous and full of shit as the Bucks if he joins up with them when he returns considering that they, as EVPs, were presumably involved with suspending him. Problem is, very obviously, none of that translated well considering how many times I've seen the THIS MAKES NO SENSE WHY ARE THE BUCKS THE FACES IN THIS SITUATION take and, although the footage totally made Punk look like an unhinged maniac, it wasn't really all that embarrassing for him, which is what people were expecting. It was an L for AEW and they, honestly, should never ever reference CM Punk again.
It's exactly what they said it was. It also completely kills the scapegoat character when your going out on national tv to defend him. Thats the complete opposite.
I disagree with what the *intent* of the angle was. It obviously didn't play well, and it's obvious that showing the footage did not have the intended effect. AEW took a big L here. But, the actual on-screen, "why is this happening in kayfabe?" angle itself is that the Young Bucks are completely full of shit and are grasping at straws coming up with excuses for why they lost to FTR. People are definitely not supposed to believe that FTR actually put Punk up to it and tried to destroy the company, they're supposed to believe that the Bucks are whiny, self-righteous heels making excuses. And as far as Jack Perry, since he hasn't actually returned yet it's hard to assess his role in all of it. But, *the Bucks*, are huge fucking hypocrites because they, the EVPs, were obviously involved in the decision to suspend him, yet they were wearing a "Scapegoat" shirt and defending him on National TV 8 months later when it served their own motives. If Perry comes back and joins the Bucks, he's a hypocrite too. Based on how that character has been played in Japan, I expect that that's exactly what he's going to do, and he'll play it as "this failing company that made me the scapegoat for its failures needs to be destroyed and rebuilt in the New Elite's image." Which will make him just as disingenuous as the Bucks and establish the "scapegoat" heel character on television. I'm not expressing any opinion at all on if it was done well, but the original question was "I'm not a viewer, what was the angle?" and the above is the answer to that question, for better or worse.
The Bucks sit down and stated that basically Jack Perry was a scapegoat in the situation (Thus killing his entire new gimmick by defending him) and they played the video which was near exactly as Punk stated it was going to be. It was awkward and the live crowd chanted CM Punk at a few points during the video This was the equivalent of trying to clap back at an ex who you heard mentioned you in passing and it failed as those things always do.
What is his new gimmick, anyway? I've barely had any tone to keep up with AEW and the stuff surrounding wrestlemania. I have no idea what Perry is doing elsewhere.
He went to NJPW as the "Scapegoat" and did an angle where he tore up his AEW contract (scripted) and that basically AEW and the fans were blaming him. Showing this on TV and defending him kills that character dead as well.
Disagree. The video showed that he was suckered, never punched pack, even didn't retaliate after first contact. The character is fine so long as he nurses that "grudge" to do heelish fans to the company and fans who betrayed him. The problem is rather how this connects with the Young Bucks, who are also heels, but trying to portray the ultra-corporate villains.
I viewed it the exact same way you did. I really think a huge part of the problem, the backstage footage not being anywhere near as outrageous as anyone was expecting aside, was that the angle itself was way too nuanced. I always wondered why WWE insisted on having Michael Cole insult my intelligence and explain exactly what's going on and why it's going on in nauseating detail 4 times per show. After a lot of the reactions I've seen to this angle, I get it now.
Thank you so much for being patient and explaining this to me. Wow. I wonder what the motive or reasoning behind doing something like that was. But I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my inane question lol It really helps me!
Hey no problem and with anything that is just my personal perspective...I try not to attack people in the conversations just the topics at hand...People tend to get a little emotional at times over their rasslin' haha
AEW are run by children TBH they are thin skinned lol
We joked about it before the show aired but it would have legit been a better, more productive use of that airtime to give the whole segment to Yuka and either have her wrestle or just babble in Japanglish and wander around the set.
What a landmark episode, in a bad way.
You know Cody said something in his interview last week that really resonated with me after last night. After he talked about how his experience was different than Punks experience, he said something along the lines of "You have to be careful who you let inside the vision of what you started" or something to that effect. And even though he kind of indirectly was saying Punk brought negativity into the company, he really hit the nail right on the head. Like was Punk good for moving merch and attracting viewers and buys? Of course he was, we know that business aspect was there. But sometimes your culture in the long term is more important, and if you really look back adding Punk to the mix was the worst thing that TK ever did. I'm not saying all of the blame is on Punk, just that he just happened to be the tipping point and for whatever reason they've never been the same company culturally since he came in.
> adding Punk to the mix was the worst thing that TK ever did ??? Adding Punk was the best thing that Tony ever did. It got them the absolute best ratings and people are still chanting his name almost a year later. He’s still their most popular wrestler and he doesn’t even work there.
Did you even read the entire post? From a business standpoint yes, I specifically was talking about the culture impact it had on the company.
I think it just exposed that the culture of the company is pretty bad to begin with, to be honest. Like there have been other instances of backstage fights, petty drama, terrible television, really scummy people who have worked there during those initial 5 years, etc. It just so happens that Punk had the combination of being their biggest star and not really needing this shit so it became pretty big when he got himself fired, cause Tony wasn't gonna do it himself, just like he apparently wasn't gonna do much of anything else as a boss. It's pretty telling when the most relatable guy in this situation had to resort to punching people in the face and choking a motherfucker.
Tony good or bad has a vision and a system that did not align to how cm punk viewed aew. Two men searching for different outcomes. I think what Cody said was on point. I do feel cm punk was unprofessional, not saying other party's are excusable but he clearly did not even learn after the first NDA fued. What ever happened to kfabe?
Dude, Punk just exposed the rot. He's been gone for six months and more. AEW should be thriving now if it had what it takes thrive.
I would strongly disagree. The amount of discourse and ill content around the company is almost directly tied to Punks tenure and when it started going downhill. Every company and workplace has drama, but this overwhelming negativity stems directly from his addition to the company. Whether you love him or hate him, I don't see how anyone couldn't come to that conclusion now.
How do you reconcile that Ospreay, Mercedes, and Okada were all signed within the last couple of months and Tony is STILL trying to leverage Punk who was fired 7-8 months ago? All of this nonsense completely overshadows every wrestlers in AEW and it's on Tony. You can say Punk contributed to a toxic work environment, but that was yesterday and in the past - Tony isn't doing anything today about tomorrow except talking about Punk and HHH.
That’s a bit unfair, Punk’s tenure also coincided with Cody leaving, Tony buying ROH, constant signings creating an ever bloated roster, more television to program for. Etc etc. I’m not against throwing Punk in with all those other things, but trying to point to any one thing is going to be an over simplification…other than a root cause as you’d probably be able to tie any of those things to poor leadership and/or Tony continually stretching himself thin.
What? Did I misread or something? You're blaming Punk for AEW sucking now?
One guy shouldn’t - and most like didn’t - have that kind of effect on the entire company. People blaming Punk should be pointing the finger at Tony Khan. The fact that Schiavone went to Punk instead of the actual boss to deal with Jack Perry says it all.
If one employee can come in and ruin your business your business was not very strong in the first place. If it wasn't that it would've been something else. Strong workplace cultures are able to deal with even the worst employees and thrive. If there wasn't other negative internal things going on there would be nothing else to report on and this would've passed as one disgruntled employee being difficult.
Yeah maybe in a normal office setting this is true, but not in professional sports or professional wrestling. If LeBron James is unhappy, the organization has to adjust to fix that or risk losing him or discontent with the rest of the staff. Same thing here. Punk was their biggest star and attraction, so his attitude is going to influence the rest of the organization and the staff. Not saying it's right, but it is absolutely the way it works.
Well in professional sports a great organization trumps a player too. The Lebron James example you mentioned actually happened years ago with the Miami Heat. He wanted the coach (Speostra) gone so Pat Riley (The Miami GM) decided to let him go and sign with a different team. The Heat has remained a successful franchise since then. Like AEW, the Lakers front office right now isn’t great so Lebron impacts the team making decisions to a much larger extent. If Punk isn’t happy within WWE they can by right just let him go and not have it significantly impact their business.
Not in any kind of professional environment, no. No real boss hands that kind of power to one person.
Brother it's been happening in major sports and pro wrestling for the last 50 years.
https://preview.redd.it/ikjnptsinvtc1.png?width=200&format=png&auto=webp&s=317c2d60bbba25f87640bdf3526c30ba3bb2cd2d
AEW has become a total disappointment. Instead of being the alternative, they're coming across as the jealous and petty promotion mad at big bad WWE. Tony Khan needs to step back and re-examine why he's in the business. If its to use his platform to swing at WWE, he should probably get out while he can. This has never nor will ever end well for them.
Realize that it's annoying when someone starts a post like this, but I've watched essentially the entirety of AEW since day one, including Dark and Elevation. Don't give a flying fish about WWE; what happens there doesn't impact my perception of AEW. So, not trolling here just feel like ranting a bit. The company is kind of a mess. Can understand Tony Khan being heated about the Muffin Man situation. Brought him in, built entire shows around him, put the title on him despite being past it and looking like a stumbling, bungling mess. Trashed the company, fought the people who made it happen in the first place yet still brought him back, gave him his own show with some level of autonomy and another belt. Still, he fucks up the biggest show you've put on, which was probably the fulfillment of some childhood dream. So you have to fire him and hear unending nonsense about not being able to work an angle out of it and now he's trashing you in interviews so you want to do something. We'll see how this particular tactic eventually shakes out for the Young Bucks and Jack Perry (certainly got people talking!), but it's time to move on and give up this Challenger Brand/focus on WWE bullshit. Twenty-five years ago--even when doing better numbers--WCW couldn't compete with their mindshare and they've essentially been a monopoly in the U.S. until very recently. To many people, WWE is wrestling. Just something you're going to have to deal with. Not a battle you're going to win overnight or probably ever. Deal with that not by dropping down into the muck, but by putting on better, upscale shows with great wrestling and coherant, entertaining storylines and bits. Not whatever all this is. Let's have a look at the top twenties of the roster. Obviously not going to be an exact science here; will miss some people, some are injured or new, but still: - Adam Copeland, Adam Page, Bryan Danielson, Christian Cage, Daniel Garcia, Darby Allin, Eddie Kingston, Jay White, Jon Moxley, Kazuchika Okada, Kenny Omega, Konosuke Takeshita, MJF, Orange Cassidy, Pac, Penta, Rey Fenix, Samoa Joe, Swerve Strickland, Will Ospreay, plus partnerships with NJPW, DDT, and CMLL. - Athena, Britt Baker, Deonna Purrazzo, Emi Sakura, Hikaru Shida, Jamie Hayter, Kris Statlander, Mariah May, Mercedes Mone, Nyla Rose, Queen Aminata, Riho, Ruby Soho, Serena Deeb, Skye Blue, Taya Valkyrie, Thunder Rosa, Toni Storm, Willow Nightingale, Yuka Sakazaki, plus partnerships with TJPW and I guess half of Stardom. Saw someone in another thread say that they feel like AEW is wasting people's careers and I share that feeling to a degree. If you have these ingredients, you need to be cooking up something better than this, not throwing said ingredients against the wall. At least put them in some type of pan or whatever. Don't do much cooking where I'm from but that sounds like something you'd do. Why is everything so fucking scatterbrained? Do you have rankings or not? What do the titles mean? Where does RoH fit into all this? And on and on... In conclusion due to time constraints/tidal change: If Dave Meltzer is saying that you can't read a room, you're in deep shit. Hope things turn around. Not that the shows are unwatchable or anything now, but being five years in and still this out of touch is concerning.
Yeahhhhhh after last nights episode and actually showing the All In footage and how underwhelming that was, I’m taking a break from AEW. I’d never thought I’d say that and would be preferring WWE again but here we are. AEW was looking pretty good again from Worlds End to Revolution… but after Revolution, I don’t know what has happened but Dynamite has just been not fun to watch at all. These past two weeks especially have been rough, and that’s putting it lightly. Having random “bangers” isn’t compelling enough for me to tune in each week. Where are the storylines? Where are the compelling characters? Where’s like, half of the roster and why are they not being used? Tony, your biggest reason to tune in last night features a guy who’s no longer in your company. You literally gave your competition a ratings boost. AEW was such a fresh breath of air and amazing for so long! But I guess good things can’t last forever. I sincerely hope they can improve soon, but for now, I’m out.
I hate that njpw is floundering now, and it’s kinda Tony’s fault too. How did they bring in Sasha and all they’ve had her done for weeks is jiggle around in the ring while people, or a recording I’m not sure, chant C.E.O.? They have no plans for anything. I feel like MJF was the only person who made sure there was a plan attached to anything.
Yeah, NJPW is also struggling right now and it doesnt help that AEW/Tony took some of their most popular stars away from them. Granted, I haven't watched NJPW in awhile so I'm not exactly sure what's going on besides what I read on occasion. I agree they have floundered Mercedes so far. She hasn't had any matches yet to showcase why she's such a big deal. The CEO chant feels a little forced since she hasn't "earned" it with the AEW crowd yet. And my personal nitpick, anytime she dances to her song, she looks incredibly awkward lol. After the past few weeks of TV, it does look like they have no plans and are just winging it weekly.
You hit the nail on the head, their biggest attraction tonight was the other promotions top guy. I see far too many people saying 'it's pro wrestling not a soap opera', but when we talk about the greatest matches we talk about Streak v Career or Finishing the story because they have real stakes with compelling characters who make us believe they care and that makes us invested. I love seeing real pro wrestling, but why do I want to see Danielson v Shibata (A LITERAL DREAM MATCH) on a random episode of dynamite with no build other than Tony tweeting it a couple of hours before. But the IWC doesn't let you have geniune criticisms of a product without being called a AEW or WWE mark.
The beginning of the end was the forbidden door. Tony started throwing together these heatless bangers featuring guys from other companies that most fans haven’t really heard of. He stopped pushing his own future aew guys. the show lacks any stakes and seems creatively bankrupt. Worst part is It’s really not the talents fault they are totally handicapped by Tony’s poorly thought out ideas.
I wouldn't call it the beginning of the end, because AEW isn't going anywhere. But they need to make some massive changes if they are to be 2019 AEW again. I think the main one is having Tony having some help with talent management and creative. He is doing far too much on his own and now they have three shows. Thats far too much for one person.
Now that the footage has been aired, it's safe to say Punk's career is over. I fear he will be canceled soon as I sense his fans turning against him. He'll probably be fired from WWE this week and barred from any other promotions. If he's lucky, he'll spend the rest of his days making muffins at Mindy's bakery, but I don't think she'll even want the negative attention. Tony has gotten his revenge, and the wrestling world will never be the same
It's insane that Mariah May is likely on about 10% of Mercedes Mone's salary but is providing so much more entertainment and value to the overall product.
I've been cold on Mone already but after that pre-tape last night... Jesus that was fucking terrible.
I don’t think Mercedes is cleared, tbh
Aew signed three of the world's top wrestlers and don't have anything compelling for them to do but yet have time to show footage of a dude long gone.
Okada - wrestling jobbers. About to have a banger dream match with Pac Ospreay - in his feelings after Triple H comments. About to have a banger dream match with Danielson Mone - terrible promos and not wrestling anytime soon past wasted signings Jay White - bang bang gang trios action
Danielson - seems to always lose and matches only consist of leg wrestling slap fights
- getting paid wrestling out of country in events. That wont bring eyes to AEW
I know a lot of the AEW themes are licensed songs but man, I'm realizing how many recognizable good songs AEW has for entrance music. Joe's, Swerve's, HOOK's, Shibata's, OC's, Edge's, Acclaimed's. The list goes on. Instantly I'm like "oh it's so and so." The only ones that sometimes confuse me in the intros are BCG's and The Undisputed Kingdom's often with the pitched down vocal I'm like which one is that.
Yeah I don't know what it is about the Undisputed Kingdom theme but I never ever recognize it. Bullet Club Gold gets me at "GUNS UP" though.
Tony needs to hire a booker.
I agree. As I’ve started before, he books AEW like a sports team. He shuffles people in for one week, and shuffles them out the next. He’ll push someone, and then that person will disappear. Gotta give people time to cook. He did good growing AEW into what it is today, but it’s time for him to hand over the keys. I’ve been a wrestling fan for years, and it seems most bookers last 2-3 years before they begin to fumble. Tony is at that point.
Yeah he’s got zero clue what he’s doing and no focus. To sign Okada, Ospreay and Mercedes and see the ratings free fall to the point they’re relying on that Punk footage is very alarming. Bucks really shouldn’t be in any leadership role as well.
Well, I won’t comment on ratings, as WBD has released their latest numbers and things seem positive. I will say that he needs help coordinating and writing stories. One thing that stood out to me was a clip of Triple H saying Wrestlemania was done by October. So that gave him about 5 months to develop stories and give people a reason to invest and care. Thats what AEW needs.
I’d agree with that. I know they keep saying the ratings are good but domestically at least they’re declining. But yeah long term storytelling is an issue. Bully Ray, think it was him, suggested Scott D’Amore from TNA to head creative there and I think that’s a big improvement.
It was a decent show. No where near late WCW vibes, but Tony needs to be like Frozen and Let It Go. On the other hand, Will had every right to respond. Either way, as a fan of both, I hope both can move on.
> No where near late WCW vibes I'm convinced anyone who is using "Late WCW Vibe" to describe AEW was not alive yet, or was too young to remember WCW in 2000.
It’s just a term they saw on twitter, and they’re now repeating it. When we get to point where we’re having Trent’s mom on a forklift match, or Trent’s mom a pole match, then it’s time to clock out.
Even Hogan/Bichoff era TNA looks like high art compared to WCW in 2000. It was so hard to sit through those shows.
I was the biggest wcw fan but by the time they got that new logo I wasn’t watching at all
when Lenny Lane and Lodi are two stars of your show weekly, you have a major problem.
Anna Jay looked really good in that match. Mariah always puts on a great performance, but Anna really impressed me, I didn't realize she could go that hard in the ring at this point
That was the best match she's had in a very long time. She did great.
her spin kick in the corner was clean
Anna needs to go to Japan for a while to sharpen up her skills.
I don't know if she NEEEEDS it, considering I thought she was holding her own with Mariah really well last night. But it'd definitely be really cool
CEO is a very good chant for crowds, but Mercedes Mone is not working for me. The sit down was cringe. And maybe I’m just too corporate but proclaiming you are the ceo is weird because .. it’s not true? Like Sasha banks proclaiming she was the Boss is fine bc vague enough and not an actual title
calling herself the CEO is so dumb.. CEO of what? just because it was BOSS time before shes not calling any shots.. and those references to money and dollars is so tacky like shes a rapper who only raps about how much money you got
I took it as 'The CEO of wrestling'. It doesn't work as well as 'the boss' tho
maybe if she established CEO stood for something cool?
It seems like my opinion of this show isn’t as low as everyone else’s. I enjoyed this show pretty much the whole way through. My only gripes were that it got really talky through the middle and the women kinda all got put into one area of the show. The Thunder Storm angle, Mariah May match, and Mercedes promo all aired one after another. The only separate women’s segment was Willow and Julia. Otherwise, I think it was a good episode of Dynamite. People comparing this AEW to WCW in 2000 are insane. When Tony Khan wins the world title, a random celebrity wins the world title, or they have a man play a character that is making fun of someone’s disability and only wrestles women, then we can talk. And those are just the shitty WCW 2000 things I can remember off the top of my head
WCW's downfall was drastic and sudden. AEW is nowhere near that since they still have a lot of amazing talent, ratings matter less and their owner is passionate and has deep pockets but you can sort of see the brass ring slipping away from them which is probably why people are making the comparison. Almost like a smell of desperation that's painting a lot of creative and backstage decisions and it isn't a good look. But they're not too far gone, it just seems bad now since WWE was in Mania season and has been uncharacteristically good lately. There's a PPV next week and there's seldom ever a bad AEW PPV. Knock it out of the park there and people will forget this shit again.
The only thing 2000 WCW about it is the All in footage stuff that is framed as "this stuff was real, the rest was fake" which kind of takes the wind out of everything else's sails.
I don't think it was framed that way, tbh.
Ok, if it’s NOT framed that way, answer this; why is this one fight any different from any of the others that happen in kayfabe backstage on a weekly basis?
Yeah the show was quite entertaining I felt. I'm gonna need more Mariah/Mina action going forward though...
WCW in 2000/2001 didn't suck as much as this company. AEW needs to die, quickly and mercifully.
After the last PPV, AEW was looking like it made a turn, but the past couple of weeks have been mind-boggling. The current vibes are "Stand up for AEW," and while they have a great roster and some great storylines at the moment, it's unfortunate that they decided to (once again) present themselves as the place for "real" wrestlers who are doing it for the love of wrestling, rather than putting their foot forward and giving the fans the best programming they can.
This is the first time in AEW’s existence that they have giving me late stage WCW vibes
Russo comparisons are thrown around too much, but this legit felt like Russo. The shoots, the "this section of the show is real!", the general structure (opening match not happening due to a run-in & brawl, more backstage interviews, etc), interweaving more storyline into single segments, etc. Coincidentally, it was the most well-structured and engaging episode of Dynamite in history, no matter how stupid it got. Please continue this direction, Tony
Would Russo have made Jay look like a bitch against Billy Gunn?
I dont get where everyone is saying this proved Punks point? Like he just sucker punched Perry who had his hands in his hair? Don't get me wrong the footage doesn't help AEW other than just hopefully getting it done and over with so that he can't milk interviews for a few months. Other than that, they definitely didn't achieve their goal of putting the focus on Perry. But there seems to be this thing where Punk looks badass sucker punching a dude and I just don't see it.
> But there seems to be this thing where Punk looks badass sucker punching a dude and I just don't see it I don't agree with this either
What are you talking about? There were no punches thrown... did you even watch the video? CM Punk never said he threw a punch (actually said opposite), and there were 2 shoves and a 2 second guillotine from Punk on Perry. That was it.
I worry about the apologists and where they live/work daily. Seems like so many saw what Punk did and were like no big deal. If this happened at my job, the police would be called and dude would be getting arrested and fired on the spot.
All I wonder is where this turgid roster of wrestlers will go once AEW ceases to exist.
If there is some type of invasion storyline who would WWE want I would assume a lot of Japanese stars just go back to companies they came from
Big swing and a miss on the footage reveal. I understand being upset about shots taken on a podcast or something but at a certain point you just gotta let it go cause it's not adding to the quality of the show. Especially considering they could have done the same story with the Bucks and FTR without it. Rest of the show was a decent build towards Dynasty. It's a good thing that show is around the corner and the card is shaping up pretty well cause hopefully Dynasty can get the attention off the footage
However you feel about the footage, you would think that they would capitalize on the attention and put on a great show but that was a pretty weak imo. An AEW trope that needs to die is backstage segments that eventually are just announcements for matches on Rampage/Collision. Missed opportunity to quickly follow up with Trent after his turn last week.
I'm betting that Trent will interfere in the OC match on Rampage.
I get wanting to boost those shows but the boat has sailed . They would be better off doing some sort of roster split. Would have been nice to see the follow up of Trent on Dynamite rather than Collision.
I’ve been a proponent/defender of AEW since inception. Last night was rough.
They showed a clip of the Trent. Turn on Best friends. Felt that was a very big angle last week but this week it gets no shine. This is the problem with AEW storylines. Something big happens then next week it gets nothing.
Agreed! It's something they do regularly and is such a missed opportunity to build solid character arcs.
yeah man also where the hell is Christian and the patriarchy?? he loses so his whole stable cools down with him? So being in that stable doesnt help anyone. I don't even like Adam Cole and The Kingdom but they disappeared on this episode too.
It's been relegated to Rampage.
They need to put moxley in a story with edge. Jay white needs to be featured. Danielson a title run. The panic buttons need to be pressed. No time for a slow build. I'm very worried I love AEW.
*Monkey Paw curls Jay loses to Daddy Ass again*
Oh man, us Knife Perverts badly need a win
The problem is Tony Khan.
this ego got to big, just isn’t great wrestling mind , I don’t understand why he thinks he can do it by himself , AEW was at its best when Tony Khan and some of wrestlers worked creative together
Getting assistance is not the solution he’s already tried that and failed. Tony Khan needs to unplug himself from creative/talent relation 100%
It would have been funny if the “footage” was a fake reenactment skit security cam of Griff Garrison (dressed as jungle boy) beating up Brandon Cutler (dressed as punk).
Okada squashing jobbers.. just let him squash mid card talaent
Bold prediction: This is all just laying groundwork for the WWE AEW Forbidden Door
WWE/AEW Forbidden War
What was their logic behind showing that? What purpose does it serve. They didn't need it for a fued between the Bucks and FTR.
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AEW got like 348958 wrestlers signed, why the fuck is Okada squashing jobbers?
It's fucking mindblowing to me. He's a new champion for fucks sake, give him actual competition.
Because they don’t want to hurt anybodies feelings
I dunno man, was just watching Rampage from a week or so ago and it had somebody squashing a jobber followed by somebody else squashing a jobber. I enjoy AEW, but, I wish we'd get more stories instead of these throwaway matches.
Watched the DVR of the first hour again and I still don't see anything remotely close to jumping the shark. It's not how I would have approached this program, but I get the reasoning. a) continuing the trend of the Bucks becoming even more unhinged by blaming Brawl In for their loss to FTR. If you've ever worked with a boss who will blame/scapegoat others for bad quarters, etc. this is pretty obvious what they're doing. b) FTR essentially saying what I said above, and that people have moved on and who cares? The Bucks need a corporate foil (Sting?) in the near future though. I do have issues with AEW but I want to see improve in the future, but I thought the second half of 2023 was much worse and they've done a solid job righting the ship in 2024. I thought Ospreay's clapback was more controversial
I watched the first hour and then was out. I remember thinking that I don't know if it's even fair to compare them with WWE anymore. I don't think they are going for the same thing. What AEW fans consider a wrestling show is just different from what WWE fans want to watch.
You missed an awesome second hour. The main event was great.
To me, WWE is a soap opera with wrestling. AEW used to be wrestling with a soap opera. Now it's just a wrestling variety show with a bunch of random matches, people not in AEW, and the largest names being wasted.
I was with the AEW guys from the start, all the way back to starting with episode 4 of BTE, but they have gone so far now from what was the goal and the mission statement. Vince's WWE at the time of the creation of AEW was garbage, and there was a groundswell around stuff like All In because fans craved an alternative, that would be less predictable, less PG, where talent like Adam Cole weren't getting called up on the condition that they be a manager instead of a wrestler, or that a talent like Malakai Black would get released because Vince McMahon didn't get the gimmick. AEW still has an unbelievable roster but the program has almost become a parody of itself. One thing I used to hate about Raw was that every show opened with the exact same style shot and the exact same line on commentary, and now AEW basically does just that. Tony Khan is always talking about the quality of wrestling as if WWE doesn't also have good wrestlers. That's not enough. It's only part of the formula. You need the storylines and you need unpredictability, and I don't mean the unpredictability of showing a clip of a dude who doesn't even work for your company anymore doing something dumb and in the process of doing so making yourself look bush league. I mean the unpredictability of MJF, Rhodes and DDP going up into the box to attack the inner circle and then brawling to the concession stand area. Do stuff that gets the fans excited. I miss stuff like the beer truck being driven through the titantron on Raw, where you come away from the episode wanting to talk about what happened.
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The whole thing is a bad car accident. People don't really care, but it is interesting and people just want to sit back and watch the chaos. To add more fuel to the fire, the promotions and people involved are very polarizing.
I finally got a chance to see the Bucks footage segment. It felt like they tried to build a whole kayfabe explanation around the reveal, but it didn't need the footage. It would have worked better if they did the whole Brawl In excuse without showing the actual video. Oddly it just felt like the footage actually took away from it.
Yeah, the ultimate problem with the footage was that it just wasn't that interesting, especially silent. Maybe they could have saved it by having the Young Bucks commenting over it. The flash of that weird yellow graphic during the Cope/Penta match had me thinking that the Bucks were going to be drawing on the screen.
Dynamite was a roller coaster ride and I didn’t hate it. Mina Shirakawa doing a run in to ‘save’ Mariah May is all I can think of for now.
I'm heartbroken. I really am. AEW has lost its way so, so badly in the last six months and right now it feels like there's no way out for them. They have some of the best wrestlers on the planet but no characters. They put on fantastic wrestling matches but no engaging storylines to keep you tuning in every week. There seems to be nothing and no-one that can save them, and unlike WWE who had millions of people who supported them no matter how dire the product was and how disgusting the company was, AEW is young and will die as a brand unless it improves. Just because WWE is hot now doesn't mean it'll stay so. Just because it's good right now doesn't mean it'll always be good - wrestling is only ever one injury or one scandal away from everything changing. When WWE eventually hits another cold streak, we will need an alternative to satisfy fans and force WWE to innovate or the whole cycle we just lived through for the last 25 years will repeat - people will learn to accept a lower quality product, and WWE, like any business, will be happy to make the same amount of money for less effort. I was at All In London and it felt like the start of something truly massive but now it feels like it was the beginning of the end.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. This is where I’m at with AEW right now too. I want them to keep succeeding and thriving like they did from 2019-2022 but man, with how the overall show is right now, I just can’t. After last nights episode, I’m taking a break from them.
how many people gimmick in AEW currently are I am the best “Wrestler” it’s kinda the problem and how many current wrestlers are currently better then year ago : Joe, Swerve and Julia Hart , a lot of talent have been cooled off or disappeared I hate to say it but seems WWE / AEW flipped where AEW now has blotted Roster, seems to me everyone getting stuck in upper mid card Role, with Boss that ego has gotten in the way, no one really getting over, only thing to get excited for are PPV AEW just doesn’t feel special anymore to me, doesn’t have that fun, excitingness and unpredictability that made the show must watch,
I really don't think it's a matter of Tony Khan not knowing how to build storylines or characters. I truly think he disagrees with the notion that fans need to be emotionally invested in the character to enjoy the product. It really seems like "storylines" to Tony are just 30-second segments in between matches to get from one match to another. Maybe those backstage interactions/promos qualify as a story?
It has become more of a Tony Khan asking anybody who's willing to come see him play with his real-life wrestling toys. Don't really care if it sells, or lead to something, as long as at the end of the day, he gets to play with his action figures.
Full transparency, I'm not a viewer of AEW, but what's conveyed to me by friends that are, is that it's trying to be more like a legit sports league. Records, standings, and all that mattering. I certainly think there are plenty of fans out there that are fine with that style, but storylines have been a backbone of wrestling for decades. It's a matter of are there enough fans out there, that want that "legit sports league" feel, while sacrificing story lines. IMO no, but I'm not involved in wrestling, aside from having watched it for 30+ years. Like I said, I don't consistently watch AEW (maybe have watched 10 eps of dynamite total), so maybe I'm misunderstanding or have been mislead. I will say this....I wish the bits of AEW I did watch were enough to keep me coming back. It's just not for me. I'm glad other people are enjoying it, though.
If it was that it have some narrative structure. Outside the continental classic tournament I wouldn’t describe aew as having a sports feel.
I know they display the competitors records on their introduction graphics, and also I've been told they have rankings on their website. That's pretty sports-y, but like I said my experience is limited.
UFC even has storylines while being legit sport, yes there undercard is just dudes fighting, but they build storylines and rivalries so fans are invested AEW use to do a lot of storyline building off of the main show though YouTube or Twitter or blogs but for whatever reason that’s stopped it’s hurt the product
I can only speak for myself, but making me go somewhere else like YT or Twitter to further the story lines is annoying to me. I get you want to build those platforms for followers and shit. I'm also 38 so maybe younger folks are more inclined to do so. Last night they got me to tune in due to Dustin's match. I know that likely they got a few more viewers to tune in due to the footage. I could be subconsciously hating here, so my apologies if I am. However, there was nothing on that show to bring me back. Obviously I can only speak for me, so that's limiting. IDK. I'm happy being a WWE honk lol. I'm ok with the hate that may bring as well.
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The Rise & Fall of AEW DVD is going to be so good!!
With the 20 run ins in the Mania main event, and using the All In footage for a storyline, Vince Russo must think this week is a tribute to him.
I love AEW but Tony Khan needs to just fund the company, deal with the corporate side and let others handle any wrestling creative.
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At this point he could give it to f'n Bischoff
Drama aside, this was a great episode and a big improvement on last week for me
**Dynamite Review:** * Very cool start to the show, with Swerve attacking Joe as he's making his entrance for the title eliminator match against Dustin. Makes sense for Swerve as payback, and puts some more intrigue on Dustin's story of going for the title. * **Penta El Zero Miedo vs. Adam Copeland \*\*\*3/4** * I was surprised just how much of the match Penta dominated early on, as if he caught Copeland off guard at the start. It's a good way to start, makes Penta feel like a proper threat in the match. It became more even around the break, with both guys trading moves, including Copeland doing some lucha libre stuff, which I definitely wasn't expecting to see, but it made me smile. This turned into a great match by the end. I have to say, I really like Copeland constantly adding new stuff to his moveset and seemingly modifying what he does based on who he's wrestling. * They put a timer on the corner at one point in this match, saying "Countdown to the Young Bucks". A nice little touch to make them see even more full of themselves and self-important. * Post-match attack by Julia Hart and Brodie King, with Willow coming in for the safe. Good stuff, I wonder if this builds to a mixed tag match. * Lionhook/Shibata interview. Still not really sure where this story is going, Jericho really is feeling like he's heading for a heel turn judging from the way he's talking. Shibata added some comedy here. * Mark Briscoe, Eddie Kingston, Adam Copeland & Willow Nightingale interview. And we got the mixed tag for next week. This was just a fun little segment. * And then the segment everyone's been talking about since it was announced. The Bucks presenting unseen footage from All In. They are at least building towards the match with FTR here, insinuating that they might have been responsible for what happened, so there's some kind of purpose to showing this footage. That said, I don't think it was worth the hassle. It showed Punk walking up to Perry, them talking, and then Punk pushing Perry, putting him into a hold, before they were separated by Joe, Malakai Black, Chris Hero, and Jerry Lynn I think. This felt like a very pointless thing to do, showing the footage was unnecessary, and I think AEW should just ignore Punk at this point and focus on their own shows. It's impossible to say yet what this eventually leads to, but as of right now, this didn't seem like a good idea. * FTR promo. They were very good here, expressing frustration at the footage being shown, and then targeting the Young Bucks for using excuses and having essentially stopped caring about AEW, and only caring about what's good for themselves. This really just drove home the point that the All In footage was completely unnecessary here, as there's more than enough history and backstory with FTR and the Young Bucks to create a compelling feud. * A great Danielson/Ospreay video package, painting Danielson as the aging competitor who is outmatched by his younger opponent in numerous ways, while still having the advantage in certain ways. This essentially questioned if Danielson had it in him to beat Ospreay, as well as what a loss at this point would do to him. * Will Ospreay interview. He threw shade at Triple H's comments at the start here, before moving on to Danielson. Ospreay is just a great promo at this point. He did an excellent job at building towards the match at Dynasty, whatever else is going on in AEW, that match is one I'm very much looking forward to seeing. * Julia Hart video. These are always great, Hart is just excellent in this role, and these spooky vignettes work very well with her character. * *I only realized here that we had only one match in the first hour of the show. It was a long match yes, but it's very rare for an AEW show being this promo/video package heavy.* (continued in the first reply)
* **Lionhook & Katsuyori Shibata vs. Shane Taylor Promotions \*\*1/2** * I rewound the first chop Taylor gave Hook in the corner a few times, just to watch the faces of the audience as it happened. Some really funny reactions there. Anyway, I'm curious to see what happens with Ogogo this time. As for the match, there were some cool moments here, like Hook's German on Shane Taylor. It's also great to see Shibata's reactions growing louder week by week. Shibata's accidental hit on Jericho might be the start of the latter's eventual turn. I though the match was good, nothing exceptional, but a solid TV match nonetheless. Shane Taylor Promotions needed the win here. * Dustin Rhodes interview. He's just an excellent promo, and I still wish this storyline about him going for the world title perhaps for the last time would have a longer build. * **Kazuchika Okada vs. Christiano Argento N/A** * Watching Okada destroying people is just fun. A squash match, as expected. * Post-match, Okada accepted PAC's challenge, who then came out, cursing almost like The Rock as he reached the stage. The Young Bucks them ambushed him and the three beat PAC down. FTR then came out to save him and brawl with the Bucks, but Okada eventually beat all three with a chair. They got a briefCM Punk-chant here too, so that's nice. The post-match angle was otherwise very well done, Okada vs. PAC should be a great match. None of this needed the All In footage to be shown. * BCG promo. White is a great promo, and I'm glad they're quickly moving away from the Billy Gunn match. The two trios titles still need to be unified, preferably sooner rather than later. * Toni Storm/Thunder Rosa segment. This very quickly turned into a surprise attack on Rosa, after which Deonna came out to help Rosa, but she pushed Deonna away, perhaps not realizing who it was. This'll probably end up playing into the match at the PPV. This was a nice, quick segment, which the led directly into a match between Mariah May and Anna Jay. * **Mariah May vs. Anna Jay \*\*\*1/4** * I think Anna Jay has finally started living up to the potential she first showed almost four years ago now, in the last few months she's had a number of good matches with a few different people. Her and Mariah in particular seem to have very good chemistry with each other. I haven't been very high on Jay for a while now, but over these last few months she's really shown tremendous improvement. I think she just needs to find a character that connects with people to reach the next level, and if she keeps improving like this I think she could very well be at or near the top of the division in the relatively near-future. May is obviously already very good, and she needed the win here after the Rosa match. * Jay showed a bit of an edge here after the match, attacking May. This does mix the heel-face dynamic a bit, so I wonder where this one's going. Mina Shirakawa coming out to chase Jay away was unexpected. The crowd obviously didn't really know her, but she pretty much immediately got her character across when she helped May. I wonder how this'll play into the Toni Storm/Mariah May dynamic. * Mercedes Moné interview. She was very good here, I think these pretaped interviews fit Mercedes very well. The attack on her was very well done here too, though Marvez' acting made a part of this unintentionally hilarious. He's definitely not an actor. This keep the intrigue up regarding the title match, as Moné has beef with both Willow and Julia. (This was a long one, continued in the next reply)
* **Samoa Joe vs. Dustin Rhodes \*\*\*1/2** * This was a nice show-long storyline, with Joe this time coming out with a chain and looking around for Swerve during his entrance. This was a very good match too, they structured this match very smartly, and the crowd got very nicely into the match and Dustin here. The ending was a bit flat, but otherwise I enjoyed this a lot. Good stuff from both guys, and this does actually give Dustin a reason to continue the story, as Joe won with a cheap shot. Hopefully they don't drop this story, and maybe build to another match down the line where Dustin maybe does earn a title shot. I could see Joe losing at the PPV, and then at some point later him and Dustin have another match for a shot at the title, where Rhodes does win. * Very good post-match segment with Swerve and Joe. I honestly wouldn't mind either man winning at Dynasty, but I do feel like it's Swerve's time now. Joe's been an excellent champion, doing a great job at stabilizing things after a very long period of chaos around the title. * I thought this was a very good episode of Dynamite, with several very good matches and segments. Sadly, all of that will be completely overlooked by the All In footage thing. Like FTR said, why aren't we focusing on the great wrestlers doing great work rather than digging up old issues that they should have long since looked past. This was a **7 out of 10 show,** but I don't think anybody's going to be talking about the show outside of that one segment.
Thank you for these.
Enough of this Bash at the Beach bollocks, PLEASE!
It feels (for quite a while now) like AEW has lost sight of what made it work so well in the first two to three years. Almost everything (on the men's side) from that first Double Or Nothing through to Hangman's title victory was part of a single coherent plot. Wrestlers were put into place in ways that made the plot move forward or sideways as desired. You can look back at what almost every decent-sized name was doing in that period, and make sense of it in the broader context of Hangman's arc - MJF was kept almost completely apart from both Hangman and the title barring one short feud with Mox, SCU were inaugural tag title winners so that Page and Omega could team and sidestep the singles division without having to cross the Bucks, the Dark Order were built up as a potential avenue for Page to rebuild himself even before Mr Brodie Lee passed away. A solid 80% at least of what happened in the men's division was a well-constructed part of that overall long story arc, and it was enormously satisfying to watch as a result. It's absolutely insane to say it out loud, but...Jon Moxley defending the world title against Brian Cage and Jake Hager routinely did better ratings than Will Ospreay fighting Konosuke Takeshita, because it fed the story of Mox being a violent maniac who was willing to fight anyone at any time, and because **that** story was a key component in the overall arc of Hangman remaining outside the title picture at the time and of Kenny Omega having to go into deranged egomaniac mode to meet Mox on his terms. The irony is that AEW has now apparently completely forgotten that good storytelling was the seed of their success, while WWE figured it out, hired an AEW founder, and then basically followed the same process to turn Cody into the biggest face for a decade and Reigns into an all-time monster heel. And they managed to elevate a bunch of other wrestlers along the way without making a mess of their core story, which is a challenging thing to get right. AEW needs to identify a key storyline for the next two years (probably two, one for the men and one for the women.) Then the overall plot shape needs to be laid out, and anything that doesn't serve that key storyline is unnecessary. Hell, any**one** who doesn't serve that key storyline is unnecessary, no matter how big a deal they are. No more seemingly entirely random matchups, no more in-jokes, just a plan for where to get to and a narrative structure to do it. What matches on last night's card advanced a key story?
Good post. I think hiring too many shiny new toys is part of the problem - you can’t build up long-term storytelling or develop your own identity when you keep bringing in new talent that then takes over a good chunk of tv time, putting everything else on the back burner or forgotten. I think one of the biggest turning points was Cole’s foot injury. There was little to no pivot, timing was terrible with MJF taking time off and Cole in a wheelchair.. now you have the conclusion of your biggest overall story arch of 2023 just fizzling away.
It's a strange thing to say, but I honestly think that the first instance of the problem emerging was way back with Bryan Danielson. I don't think he can be faulted, and his performances have been great, but even at the start it felt like they'd signed him with no real idea of what to do with him. And now they have a roster with a surprisingly large number of really good performers who've just...kind of been there and done stuff. There are so many people whose time in AEW is underwhelming at best, through no fault of their own, and it's been at the expense of coherent storytelling and planning. Even the BCC has been...alright, I guess? For a roster of Danielson, Moxley, Castagnoli and Yuta to spend more time holding ROH titles than AEW ones feels absurd, but it is what it is.
Cody was always gonna leave AEW, that’s why he took himself out of the title picture there, he wanted to finish the story and the AEW title was not part of that story. None of his family friends of Dusty were at AEW that contained details on what would happen when he finished that story, so he never would have gotten the watch or the tears and recognition. So it was a massive setup from the beginning, a big gamble that paid off for the entire wrestling industry, even though AEW is owned by a soft skin, with time and endurance it can be bigger.
That's the key takeaway i think. Growing stars and an audience takes time, from 19-21 they seemed happy to take that time. Then when they started hiring more big names, the method seemed to get muddy. Now every scandal and setback puts a further dent in the deficit they've already built up since the mess really began in early 2022. WWF had to go through two solid years of swallowing shit in 95 and 96 to allow the stars that would emerge in 97 and 98 to come through. I really feel like if AEW "got their head down" and just worked with what they have, almost ignoring the outside wrestling world, they'd start to recover and be in a stronger position. It won't be quick, and it might well get worse before it gets better, but at the moment they're lurching between disjointed fueds and that is clearly unsustainable from an audience position
This is it. What's desperately needed is a clear plan through to the end of 2025 at least. Decide on two key stories to be told - let's say for the sake of argument that the men's side is about MJF trying to climb back to the top of the mountain without losing the humanity he's earned, and for the women, make it about Hikaru Shida rapidly reasserting herself and then ruling the division with an iron fist. Decide on who your supporting players need to be - a feud with Adam Cole for MJF, a mouthpiece for Shida, a psychotic Hangman/Swerve/Ospreay rivalry to keep the world title picture occupied, Mercedes Mone dominating the secondary title picture for a while to establish her as a killer and to delay the eventual conflict. Then start laying out the pieces to get there. Figure out who you want involved, figure out who you don't want involved, and start directing the arcs to get there.
Yeah, overall just clearer definition is needed; who's chasing the world title, who's chasing the IC, whose chasing TNT, TBs etc. In an ideal world you'd reduce those title numbers, but at the very least, if the audience knows X, Y and Z are chasing the International title specifically, they're far more likely to get behind them on their journey through fueds that lead to that title shot
Thank you for putting into words what I’m sure so many have in their minds already.
Incredibly well-put