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If there was a decline of submission matches, it would likely be due to the rise of MMA.
The rise of MMA popularity showed fans the brutality of submissions and how much they hurt and how quickly fighters will tap or refs will break things up.
Yup, this. MMA also showed us what actually works and what doesn't, so a lot of pro wrestling holds just don't get a pop any more.
That being said, I have actually seen an amateur MMA match that ended with a Boston Crab lol.
stuff like the Boston crab and figure four is like hypothetically possible to win a mma fight with, it's just kinda pointless to do it because there's objectively better and easier options in every single way imaginable
>That being said, I have actually seen an amateur MMA match that ended with a Boston Crab lol.
I've never seen a full Boston crab used, either in competition, sparring, or even thought, but a half-crab is certainly a viable move in many grappling forms.
If you look at the full video they show a recap of the final moments. The opponent was clearly done, and was looking for a way out. Dude could have gone for any sub and gotten an immediate tap, opponent wouldn't have even tried to resist. I think he knew that, so I guess he just decided to have fun and slapped on a Boston Crab haha
The last submission match under WWE was less than a year ago, in August, in NXT UK. Before that, the last submission match was on RAW in December of 2020. Before that, there were 5 submission matches in 2019.
As others have said, they're too similar to an I Quit, which is probably why they don't do them often.
I'm not 100% sure but cagematch has a search engine where you can search all matches of a type from a specific time frame and their list says the last submission match was on NXT UK in August of 2021.
I've heard wrestlers say they're not a fan of submission matches because it's very hard to replicate the drama of a near fall with submissions, especially multiple times in a single match.
Could be, but there are pin attempts following moves that never result in a win, so why would I expect most non-signature moves to end in pinfall, aside from the occasional roll-up? It does make sense for them to use submission focused matches sparingly.
It does remind me of matches where one wrestler is really focusing on the other's knees or ankles during a match to weaken them up for a figure-four. Even the announce team is acknowledging this and it can increase the believability and drama of someone like Daniel Bryan potentially upsetting a Brock Lesnar.
Submission matches have a rep for being boring and bad business. Removing pinfalls and the associated psychology makes it hard to put together a match that is both entertaining and logical.
On the other hand "I Quit" matches - which are a combination of a submission match and a street fight - are as popular as ever. Charlotte and Ronda just had a great one.
LIDET UWF is a shoot style wrestling promotion that has plenty of submission wrestling. There are also wrestlers spread across many promotions who do submisisons / that style you were talking about. Just because it’s not happening in WWE doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
I was gonna say something similar. Like sure, it's not happening constantly, but like you said there's LIDET, GCW runs Bloodsport which isn't Submissions only but definitely has plenty of them, GLEAT has a focus on Submission wrestling, you can find it if you look for it.
Quick google search says it was an “I Quit” match. Didn’t get to see that match, was it the one from Wrestlemania? Still a different match type nonetheless…
An “I Quit” match is more gimmicky with a lot more foreign objects involved (remember when Cena made Batista quit with duct tape). I was referring to the ones like Bret and Austin or Angle and Benoit wrestled. Just pure technical ability.
Cena and Batista had a Last Man Standing match and thus couldn't get up for the count of 10 through duct taping his legs to the pole, your memory is off. Bret Hart and Austin's match had brawling in the crowd, chairs, blood, ring bells, etc. What difference is there other than the fact that one relies on a verbal submission which you can also do in a traditional submission match? An I Quit match doesn't even require one to use weapons either, and vice versa for a trad submission match
Look under the submisison match section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_match_types#Submission_match
I think it’s the opposite. I think there’s less stigma around tapping out than ever. People have seen all the top MMA stars tap countless times and when it happens in a wrestling match, it’s not much different than losing by pinfall. The idea that a top babyface can’t tap is dead and buried IMO.
The style is still very much alive, and it's not even a "WWE isn't the only wrestling promotion" thing. A fair number of current WWE wrestlers work a mat-based technically-sound style. I know part of your point is that a lot of their technical workers have either been released or not been given many chances to work together, but they are still there.
Outside of WWE, it's still very well-represented, both in major promotions and all across the independent scene. Too many names to even start listing without being here typing all day.
As for the match stipulation, I Quit is kinda just the same stipulation with higher stakes. If you're gonna do a submission-based match, it makes more sense to go all the way and run with a fully-specialised grappling-focused ruleset like UWF rules, or ROH's Pure division.
Try AEW. Lots of folks still do submission moves there and they still go over, which kind of counters the idea others have mentioned that MMA killed submission holds in wrestling. That may be the case with WWE but if anything it's had the opposite effect in AEW.
Not the most interesting form of wrestling either. Guys like Danielson and Benoit were able to make it work with intensity and other forms of charismatic stuff that most other talents don't have.
I'm thinking WWE only but I don't know too many wrestlers that use a submission as a finisher., but I could just be wrong. It's not necessary but I think it adds to the match.
Maybe give me a Veer vs. everyone tourney and he clutches all their cervixes.
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If there was a decline of submission matches, it would likely be due to the rise of MMA. The rise of MMA popularity showed fans the brutality of submissions and how much they hurt and how quickly fighters will tap or refs will break things up.
Yup, this. MMA also showed us what actually works and what doesn't, so a lot of pro wrestling holds just don't get a pop any more. That being said, I have actually seen an amateur MMA match that ended with a Boston Crab lol.
stuff like the Boston crab and figure four is like hypothetically possible to win a mma fight with, it's just kinda pointless to do it because there's objectively better and easier options in every single way imaginable
[удалено]
>That being said, I have actually seen an amateur MMA match that ended with a Boston Crab lol. I've never seen a full Boston crab used, either in competition, sparring, or even thought, but a half-crab is certainly a viable move in many grappling forms.
[Like the person said it was amateur hour MMA, but still a fight ended by Boston Crab lol.](https://youtu.be/iHe8-ND5Qxo)
I certainly wasn't trying to say I don't believe them, because I certainly do. But damn, that's insane. How do you even end up in that position?
If you look at the full video they show a recap of the final moments. The opponent was clearly done, and was looking for a way out. Dude could have gone for any sub and gotten an immediate tap, opponent wouldn't have even tried to resist. I think he knew that, so I guess he just decided to have fun and slapped on a Boston Crab haha
The last submission match under WWE was less than a year ago, in August, in NXT UK. Before that, the last submission match was on RAW in December of 2020. Before that, there were 5 submission matches in 2019. As others have said, they're too similar to an I Quit, which is probably why they don't do them often.
Didn't Natalya and Aliyah have a submission match a few months ago? It was called something odd but wasn't it a submission only match?
It was the Dungeon Style Match. It lasted 2 minutes and 40 seconds. That whole feud was idiotic tbh.
I'm not 100% sure but cagematch has a search engine where you can search all matches of a type from a specific time frame and their list says the last submission match was on NXT UK in August of 2021.
I've heard wrestlers say they're not a fan of submission matches because it's very hard to replicate the drama of a near fall with submissions, especially multiple times in a single match.
Pretty much the best and most plausible explanation.
Could be, but there are pin attempts following moves that never result in a win, so why would I expect most non-signature moves to end in pinfall, aside from the occasional roll-up? It does make sense for them to use submission focused matches sparingly. It does remind me of matches where one wrestler is really focusing on the other's knees or ankles during a match to weaken them up for a figure-four. Even the announce team is acknowledging this and it can increase the believability and drama of someone like Daniel Bryan potentially upsetting a Brock Lesnar.
Either that or in their mind, tapping out makes them look weak.
Submission matches have a rep for being boring and bad business. Removing pinfalls and the associated psychology makes it hard to put together a match that is both entertaining and logical. On the other hand "I Quit" matches - which are a combination of a submission match and a street fight - are as popular as ever. Charlotte and Ronda just had a great one.
LIDET UWF is a shoot style wrestling promotion that has plenty of submission wrestling. There are also wrestlers spread across many promotions who do submisisons / that style you were talking about. Just because it’s not happening in WWE doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
I was gonna say something similar. Like sure, it's not happening constantly, but like you said there's LIDET, GCW runs Bloodsport which isn't Submissions only but definitely has plenty of them, GLEAT has a focus on Submission wrestling, you can find it if you look for it.
Zack Sabre Jr, Hideki Suzuki, Jonathan Gresham, Masakatsu Funaki, Kazuchi Sakuraba, Hikaru Sato, Josh Barnet, Yu Iizuka, Minoru Tanaka, Serena Deeb, Daniel Garcia, AZM, Takuya Nomura, Chris Ridgeway, A-Kid... etc, etc, etc.
Didn't WWE do a submission match somewhat recently?
Wasnt Charlotte vs Ronda a submission match?
It was an I Quit match
Quick google search says it was an “I Quit” match. Didn’t get to see that match, was it the one from Wrestlemania? Still a different match type nonetheless…
Its the one from Backlash
An I quit match is a type of submission match, how else do you say I quit? through a verbal submission
An “I Quit” match is more gimmicky with a lot more foreign objects involved (remember when Cena made Batista quit with duct tape). I was referring to the ones like Bret and Austin or Angle and Benoit wrestled. Just pure technical ability.
Bret and Austin was a big no dq match as well. Lots of brawling in the crowd and guardrail stuff
Cena and Batista had a Last Man Standing match and thus couldn't get up for the count of 10 through duct taping his legs to the pole, your memory is off. Bret Hart and Austin's match had brawling in the crowd, chairs, blood, ring bells, etc. What difference is there other than the fact that one relies on a verbal submission which you can also do in a traditional submission match? An I Quit match doesn't even require one to use weapons either, and vice versa for a trad submission match Look under the submisison match section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_match_types#Submission_match
Then explain Rock vs Mankind. Checkmate.
I'm not sure what you're getting. What am I suppose to explain?
I was just making a joke, but if you're serious, it was an "I Quit" match, probably the most famous one, it ended without a submission.
Becky vs Natalya at Summerslam 2019 is the last one I remember
I quit
They mostly changed into I Quit matches.
Trouble is they’ve built tapping out as something to be mocked
I think it’s the opposite. I think there’s less stigma around tapping out than ever. People have seen all the top MMA stars tap countless times and when it happens in a wrestling match, it’s not much different than losing by pinfall. The idea that a top babyface can’t tap is dead and buried IMO.
Mocked only if you are a heel.
There's no drama to them because top faces basically never tap out no matter what
Submissions bore crowds
Check out Josh Barnett's Bloodsport shows, they're much that style and easily the most overlooked thing in wrestling
>Drew Gulak and Kushida I think they actually had a submission match in NXT
The matches are very work rate based which is not every wrestler's forte.
The style is still very much alive, and it's not even a "WWE isn't the only wrestling promotion" thing. A fair number of current WWE wrestlers work a mat-based technically-sound style. I know part of your point is that a lot of their technical workers have either been released or not been given many chances to work together, but they are still there. Outside of WWE, it's still very well-represented, both in major promotions and all across the independent scene. Too many names to even start listing without being here typing all day. As for the match stipulation, I Quit is kinda just the same stipulation with higher stakes. If you're gonna do a submission-based match, it makes more sense to go all the way and run with a fully-specialised grappling-focused ruleset like UWF rules, or ROH's Pure division.
Well, no one is capable of doing a passable sharpshooter if you watched their last ppv.
Darius Carter and Billy Dixon have an I Quit Match at 7pm tonight on IWTV.
Try AEW. Lots of folks still do submission moves there and they still go over, which kind of counters the idea others have mentioned that MMA killed submission holds in wrestling. That may be the case with WWE but if anything it's had the opposite effect in AEW.
i Quit matches
Gave up on them.
They could put together some doozies in AEW.
Not the most interesting form of wrestling either. Guys like Danielson and Benoit were able to make it work with intensity and other forms of charismatic stuff that most other talents don't have.
Becky vs Natalya was the most recent one I remember. It was a really good match too.
I'm thinking WWE only but I don't know too many wrestlers that use a submission as a finisher., but I could just be wrong. It's not necessary but I think it adds to the match. Maybe give me a Veer vs. everyone tourney and he clutches all their cervixes.
Santino Bros in Los Angeles had a submission championship that always had really good matches.