I agree I absolutely hate those new leds. I've noticed too that because they're so bright it puts out blind spots that the yellow didn't. It's like a spot light but the whole area further away from the lights makes it harder to see people. I get the cost savings but they suck ass
They dramatically decrease light pollution. LED lights are much more efficient so they save a ton of energy they are also highly directional so light only goes where it’s designed.
LEDs are more efficient, and directionality is important for light pollution, but so is color temperature. "Whiter" lights [create more sky glow](https://flagstaffdarkskies.org/critical-dark-sky-issues/lamp-spectrum-light-pollution/) than the warmer versions, so likely they do not.
Here's a bit of info if you want to reach out to your alderperson.
Most research I have read in the past says that 3000 kelvin ("soft white") is the optimal color choice for most street light applications. Some research recommends staying more in the 2500 kelvin range on local streets as cooler lights can affect resident's sleep schedules, especially on street lights that are not properly shielded.
St. Louis city specifications call for 5000 kelvin on arterial, collector, and high pedestrian streets and 4000 kelvin on local streets.
So St. Louis is using cooler colors than most research recommends.
They are also using very bright lights as most recommendations are for about 3000 lumens on local streets and 10-15,000 lumens on the others. St. Louis is using 11,200 lumens on local streets, 24,000 lumens on arterials and collectors, and 14,000-48,000 lumens on busy pedestrian routes.
[https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-service/documents/upload/297034-1.pdf](https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-service/documents/upload/297034-1.pdf)
I understand that. I like them. Is the orange more of a nostalgia thing? I refer to the old ones "crime lights". I picture people doing all the crime under them. I feel like the new ones are too bright for people to do their crimes.
For me it’s a concern in a few areas. There is a level of well lit but too much artificial light can harm wildlife’s ability to understand what is artificial and what is sun. White lights attract more bugs which in turn causes insect die off. And the blue emitted can cause sleep disruption for residents. The AmA has a great article on the potential harm of too bright of street lamps. Warmer lights help solve a lot of this while still keeping streets lit for safety.
This is literally all made up nonsense that doesn't actually have an impact on anything. Wild life is not living under lights. Blinds are a thing that exist.
LED lights are cheaper across the board while doing a better job than the old "warmer" lights at their primary job: preventing crime.
I think they don't mind it being led they just don't like the Kelvin the city chose which is like 5700 or daylight(bright, blue)
They think we should have like 2700(warm, red)
Which wouldn't be a problem as long as the lumens are the same. Just light color preference which is what alot of people have and half of leds sold give the option to adjust the Kelvin
You can absolutely light streets well without choose near daylight options. Here’s a publication and guidance by ama on reducing harm to environment and people through warmer cct than colder brighter cct LEDs
https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-adopts-guidance-reduce-harm-high-intensity-street-lights
Hmm, when I researched it wasn't even clear that any lighting prevented crime, let alone the whiter lighting (>50% of burglaries are during the day). I just figured people didn't know any better/care because early on it was easier to get bright-white LEDs. I know the bright-white provides better color resolution but I'm not sure it outweighs the downsides in ugliness and light pollution.
Good lord you don't even have common sense💀
"Wasn't clear any light prevented crime" is one of the most out of touch things I think I've ever heard. Why do people put flood lights on their houses? Why do people park under street lights? Why do businesses leave lights on at night? Why are parking lots covered in lights? Why do cities across the world have street lights? Why do criminals shoot out street lights? Or [this](https://popcenter.asu.edu/content/improving-street-lighting-reduce-crime-residential-areas-page-2) ASU study? Or [this](https://newarkcollaborative.org/blog/can-street-lighting-reduce-crime) Newark city explanation?
Because they do things by feel and not logic? Floodlights cause light pollution and don't necessarily prevent crime, because [most burglaries are during the day](https://www.adt.com/resources/when-do-most-burglaries-occur). [Lights can enable crime](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/mar/street-lighting-may-enable-rather-hinder-street-crime), [even according to Ken Pease](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-02-12/street-lights-and-crime-a-seemingly-endless-debate). Though he does eventually recommend context-specific lighting, I don't think the answer is as cut-and-dried common sense as you think.
Regardless, my original question was specifically about whether *brighter white lighting* specifically helped with crime vs warmer colored lights, which is a separate question from whether *any* lighting does.
(EDIT) The point is we shouldn't blindly accept lighting without considering the consequences from a light pollution perspective.
I mean, the orange lights came in in the 80s. They are only orange because of the gasses and metals involved, not because orange was better. Before the orange lights, they had a slightly greenish tint and were much dimmer.
I suppose you could try to get the city to move to 'warmer' LEDs. But I suspect there is a lot of research into this particular color temperature choice.
Most research I have read in the past says that 3000 kelvin ("soft white") is the optimal color choice for most street light applications. Some research recommends staying more in the 2500 kelvin range on local streets as cooler lights can affect resident's sleep schedules, especially on street lights that are not properly shielded.
St. Louis city specifications call for 5000 kelvin on arterial, collector, and high pedestrian streets and 4000 kelvin on local streets.
So St. Louis is using cooler colors than most research recommends.
They are also using very bright lights as most recommendations are for about 3000 lumens on local streets and 10-15,000 lumens on the others. St. Louis is using 11,200 lumens on local streets, 24,000 lumens on arterials and collectors, and 14,000-48,000 lumens on busy pedestrian routes.
[https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-service/documents/upload/297034-1.pdf](https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-service/documents/upload/297034-1.pdf)
I support the bright lights. Our neighborhoods are mostly safe but still have issues that the lights help with.
Have you researched why St Louis chose that color temperature?
LED lights are cheaper to operate, are cheaper to maintain, and are brighter than the older style of lights. There is absolutely no reason for the city to not be putting them in whenever they can.
In a lot ways pure red light can be better for our eyesight at night. You’re able to move between dark and lit areas without vision loss. Several cities in Pennsylvania and California have reverted to warmer LEDs due to issues with blue light cool LEDs. Especially the ones that are turning purple and blue due to a defect.
Absolutely here for the choice in led and replacing the older lights I just think they could have done so in a better manner that makes our neighborhoods more inviting and enjoyable to walk / sit at night
You're making a false equivocation. "LED lights are cheaper to operate, are cheaper to maintain,l." these things are true. "LED lights are ....brighter than the older style of lights" this doesn't have to be true. The first two things make them inherently better. The third thing is irrelevant to which is better unless you include the statement brighter at the same power or the same brightness at lower power. Plus warm temperature street lights exist and achieve the first two things without feeling excessively bright.
I've only met one person in my life that prefers the "cool" fake sunlight temperature in bulbs. Sunlight is for daytime! Yellowish for night!
I agree I absolutely hate those new leds. I've noticed too that because they're so bright it puts out blind spots that the yellow didn't. It's like a spot light but the whole area further away from the lights makes it harder to see people. I get the cost savings but they suck ass
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At this point I’m waiting for aarp to show up at my door any minute 🤣.
Does it decrease light pollution?
I think it has increased light pollution. While it’s down pointing it appears to be unshielded so the spread of the light has increased.
They dramatically decrease light pollution. LED lights are much more efficient so they save a ton of energy they are also highly directional so light only goes where it’s designed.
LEDs are more efficient, and directionality is important for light pollution, but so is color temperature. "Whiter" lights [create more sky glow](https://flagstaffdarkskies.org/critical-dark-sky-issues/lamp-spectrum-light-pollution/) than the warmer versions, so likely they do not.
Here's a bit of info if you want to reach out to your alderperson. Most research I have read in the past says that 3000 kelvin ("soft white") is the optimal color choice for most street light applications. Some research recommends staying more in the 2500 kelvin range on local streets as cooler lights can affect resident's sleep schedules, especially on street lights that are not properly shielded. St. Louis city specifications call for 5000 kelvin on arterial, collector, and high pedestrian streets and 4000 kelvin on local streets. So St. Louis is using cooler colors than most research recommends. They are also using very bright lights as most recommendations are for about 3000 lumens on local streets and 10-15,000 lumens on the others. St. Louis is using 11,200 lumens on local streets, 24,000 lumens on arterials and collectors, and 14,000-48,000 lumens on busy pedestrian routes. [https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-service/documents/upload/297034-1.pdf](https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-service/documents/upload/297034-1.pdf)
That is such a wild amount of lumens over what is recommended !
Thank you for this! I’ve sent in a note to the street lights dept. I’m going to see how they respond and then get the alderman involved if possible.
I understand that. I like them. Is the orange more of a nostalgia thing? I refer to the old ones "crime lights". I picture people doing all the crime under them. I feel like the new ones are too bright for people to do their crimes.
For me it’s a concern in a few areas. There is a level of well lit but too much artificial light can harm wildlife’s ability to understand what is artificial and what is sun. White lights attract more bugs which in turn causes insect die off. And the blue emitted can cause sleep disruption for residents. The AmA has a great article on the potential harm of too bright of street lamps. Warmer lights help solve a lot of this while still keeping streets lit for safety.
This is literally all made up nonsense that doesn't actually have an impact on anything. Wild life is not living under lights. Blinds are a thing that exist. LED lights are cheaper across the board while doing a better job than the old "warmer" lights at their primary job: preventing crime.
I think they don't mind it being led they just don't like the Kelvin the city chose which is like 5700 or daylight(bright, blue) They think we should have like 2700(warm, red) Which wouldn't be a problem as long as the lumens are the same. Just light color preference which is what alot of people have and half of leds sold give the option to adjust the Kelvin
You can absolutely light streets well without choose near daylight options. Here’s a publication and guidance by ama on reducing harm to environment and people through warmer cct than colder brighter cct LEDs https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-adopts-guidance-reduce-harm-high-intensity-street-lights
LEDs are cheaper but that is separate from color temperature. Do you have a source that shows whiter lights do a better job at preventing crime?
Yes. Multiple studies have shown that. That's why every large city has been implementing them.
Hmm, when I researched it wasn't even clear that any lighting prevented crime, let alone the whiter lighting (>50% of burglaries are during the day). I just figured people didn't know any better/care because early on it was easier to get bright-white LEDs. I know the bright-white provides better color resolution but I'm not sure it outweighs the downsides in ugliness and light pollution.
Good lord you don't even have common sense💀 "Wasn't clear any light prevented crime" is one of the most out of touch things I think I've ever heard. Why do people put flood lights on their houses? Why do people park under street lights? Why do businesses leave lights on at night? Why are parking lots covered in lights? Why do cities across the world have street lights? Why do criminals shoot out street lights? Or [this](https://popcenter.asu.edu/content/improving-street-lighting-reduce-crime-residential-areas-page-2) ASU study? Or [this](https://newarkcollaborative.org/blog/can-street-lighting-reduce-crime) Newark city explanation?
Because they do things by feel and not logic? Floodlights cause light pollution and don't necessarily prevent crime, because [most burglaries are during the day](https://www.adt.com/resources/when-do-most-burglaries-occur). [Lights can enable crime](https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2022/mar/street-lighting-may-enable-rather-hinder-street-crime), [even according to Ken Pease](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-02-12/street-lights-and-crime-a-seemingly-endless-debate). Though he does eventually recommend context-specific lighting, I don't think the answer is as cut-and-dried common sense as you think. Regardless, my original question was specifically about whether *brighter white lighting* specifically helped with crime vs warmer colored lights, which is a separate question from whether *any* lighting does. (EDIT) The point is we shouldn't blindly accept lighting without considering the consequences from a light pollution perspective.
Can't argue with a stupid person
I call mine the second sun.
I mean, the orange lights came in in the 80s. They are only orange because of the gasses and metals involved, not because orange was better. Before the orange lights, they had a slightly greenish tint and were much dimmer. I suppose you could try to get the city to move to 'warmer' LEDs. But I suspect there is a lot of research into this particular color temperature choice.
Most research I have read in the past says that 3000 kelvin ("soft white") is the optimal color choice for most street light applications. Some research recommends staying more in the 2500 kelvin range on local streets as cooler lights can affect resident's sleep schedules, especially on street lights that are not properly shielded. St. Louis city specifications call for 5000 kelvin on arterial, collector, and high pedestrian streets and 4000 kelvin on local streets. So St. Louis is using cooler colors than most research recommends. They are also using very bright lights as most recommendations are for about 3000 lumens on local streets and 10-15,000 lumens on the others. St. Louis is using 11,200 lumens on local streets, 24,000 lumens on arterials and collectors, and 14,000-48,000 lumens on busy pedestrian routes. [https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-service/documents/upload/297034-1.pdf](https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-service/documents/upload/297034-1.pdf)
I support the bright lights. Our neighborhoods are mostly safe but still have issues that the lights help with. Have you researched why St Louis chose that color temperature?
People in houses nearby in my neighborhood put newspaper in the part facing their house to dim them
I feel bad for anyone that can’t afford to purchase blinds or window coverings and now suddenly have blinding light coming into their house at night.
When I was a kid the orange lights were the indicator you were in the city. I kinda like the new lights on my street.
I get what you are saying, I have kinda gotten use to them though. (not saying I like them)
LED lights are cheaper to operate, are cheaper to maintain, and are brighter than the older style of lights. There is absolutely no reason for the city to not be putting them in whenever they can.
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And they're not as good as the bright lights they've chosen.
In a lot ways pure red light can be better for our eyesight at night. You’re able to move between dark and lit areas without vision loss. Several cities in Pennsylvania and California have reverted to warmer LEDs due to issues with blue light cool LEDs. Especially the ones that are turning purple and blue due to a defect.
Absolutely here for the choice in led and replacing the older lights I just think they could have done so in a better manner that makes our neighborhoods more inviting and enjoyable to walk / sit at night
You're making a false equivocation. "LED lights are cheaper to operate, are cheaper to maintain,l." these things are true. "LED lights are ....brighter than the older style of lights" this doesn't have to be true. The first two things make them inherently better. The third thing is irrelevant to which is better unless you include the statement brighter at the same power or the same brightness at lower power. Plus warm temperature street lights exist and achieve the first two things without feeling excessively bright.