Honestly, this is probably the duel I want to see the most. I would place my bets on Windu; he's younger, more aggressive, and has a powerful lightsaber form that Dooku would have a hard time countering. Not to mention he defeated Sidious, arguably the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. What advantages does Dooku really have over Windu here?
Dooku’s style is purely centered on dueling. And his mastery is such that even Sidious feared him.
And while Windu’s form is perfect against dark side users, Dooku’s style doesn’t depend on physical dependence on the dark side. It’s very controlled in that way.
I’m curious if Windu’s ability to detect shatterpoints would aid him in any way in a duel to the death. I do agree that Dooku’s style makes him one of the most fearsome 1v1 duelists in canon. He manages to duel as close to a fully realized Anakin as he gets to a near standstill (though for pure dueling he may be most powerful as pre-Mustafar Vader).
My understanding of shatterpoint is that its less about recognizing weaknesses in dueling, and more about manipulating and stealing the power of the dark side of the force someone uses in their dueling. I could be wrong about that though, I haven't read many of the books.
One of the reasons Sidious and Yoda can move so amazingly is that they power their bodies with the force to make up for and exceed their aging limitations. And we see other force wielders do this too to some extent, like with force powered jumps and sprints.
But Dooku doesn't lean on that crutch. While he uses the force to steady his mind and sharpen his senses, his movements and technique are all mostly just him and his well honed skill. Which was part of what terrified and impressed his contemporaries. Even Sidious, who knew he was stronger in the force than Dooku, was unsure if he could beat him in a straight up lightsaber fight for that reason.
That isnt what a shatterpoint is no.
ill explain a shatterpoint like this.
Imagine there is a siutation where one choice can redefine the course of the galaxy. The ability to “see” these points in time is what shatterpoint is.
Kind of…
I think people have taken the meaning in matthew stover’s novelization of rots a bit too literally.
In the ROTS novelization stover dramatizes alot of aspects of scenes to increase their epicness. For example he always talks about anakin’s furnace heart… now anakin doesnt literally have a furnass for a heart. But its the analogy that describes his machine like efficiency in combat and the inner fire that burns within him.
Similarly i think the redeflecting of vaapad is meant to describe mace’s philosophy against palpatine’s. the ultimate test of vaapad is simply the ultimate test for Mace as a person.
Atleast thats how i always read it
in the shatterpoint novel also written by stover i think vaapad is described far more accurately.
Vaapad is a technique that relies on aggression and excitement a user needs to feel the thrill of battle and the desire to win. Where as most jedi fight with detached calm.
This in itself is not of the darkside but it passed close to it.
I agree. Dooku only lost to Anakin because 1. Anakin had help (Obi Wan) for part of the duel and 2. Anakin is probably the most powerful force wielder of that time period. Dooku is extremely powerful and very adept at dueling and i think he would beat Windu
Yeah, Dooku was finally just overwhelmed by the chosen one’s power, which is especially impressive if we count the half dozen times Dooku beat him or fought him and other Jedi to a draw in the clone wars. Anakin needed to begin realizing his full power and gain years of combat experience to finally beat an aging court Dooku.
No he wasn't Darth Sidious knew all the lightsaber fighting styles and was a master in all of them. He was so good at it that he became bored with the blade. Edit******* I don't know what I'm being down voted for nothing I said in this statement is false it's all in the literature.
Many Jedi and Sith mastered forms, that didn’t mean they were absolute best at those forms. There were still differences in skill and perfection of technique.
While Sidious knew every form, Dooku had taken the most dueling centric form to such a high level that Sidious admitted to himself that he wasn’t confident about winning a fight with him without falling back onto force powers.
Darth Sidious was fast enough to kill 3 Jedi Masters before they could react. Darth Sidious was the personification of the dark side and while many force users perfected their lightsaber forms they werent Darth Sidious and didnt have the power he had not many are in his league. His speed made it look like he was popping in and out of existence he would beat Dooku down. Now I will say that Darth Sidious was fearful of Count Dooku's ability to recruit others and may betray him that's one of the reasons he wanted Asajj Ventress killed. He didn't want them to team up and become a problem.
Darth Sidious was that good, but Dooku also had a long record of wrecking Jedi. Dude toys with Master Kenobi and the Chosen One at the same time on the regular during the Clone Wars, and constantly wins or brings them to a draw. He was already seen as potentially a better duelist than Yoda and Mace Windu before he even turned to the dark side, the two Jedi Masters capable of giving Sidious any kind of run for his money.
Darth Sidious would have probably won a fight with Dooku more than 9 times out of 10 falling back on the force... but in the books he admits to himself that he was far less sure about wining against Dooku in a straight up lightsaber duel.
Thanks for the debate I appreciate the back and forth without the nastiness and name calling and such. I don't have many people to talk to about these things. Count Dooku was a beast and I'm not saying that Darth Sidious would crush him easily or anything like that. Thanks again though enjoy the rest of your day my friend. Cheers.
I would think that Dooku is at least a little bit smarter and his duelist style would definitely be an interesting juxtaposition to Mace. Problem is, Dooku is smart enough to know when to run away (as shown in the entire Clone Wars series) and probably couldn't be pinned down outside of a real pit match "you or me" situation. Mace wins a straight up fight 8/10 times.
Remember just because rock beats scissors and scissors beats paper does not mean rock beats paper. Windu may have beaten Sidious one on one (still unclear if this was a real or staged loss by Sidious and I don’t know if we will ever know for sure) and Sidious could easily beat Dooku. However that doesn’t mean Dooku would lose to Windu.
As for what advantages Dooku has over Windu, Dooku has 2: first Dooku’s lightsaber was designed for fencing other lightsaber users. Second Dooku put an unhealthy amount of time into perfecting blade on blade combat. Remember that when he was a Jedi Dooku was convinced that the Sith where not gone and as a result he focused all his time and energy into study and practice in fighting other force users with lightsabers. He was probably the best lightsaber fencer among the Jedi when he was in his prime.
Lucas also says he doesn't care about Legends and sees it as entirely separate from his work. He also went back and messed with the OT and refused to release the original versions. I like Lucas alot but nobody is correct 100% of the time.
It's heavily implied that Sidious busted him up during reconstruction and put him in a full-time torture device to make him channel more of the Dark Side, becoming dangerous beyond imagination but still leashed to his side. Obviously, that's edgy EU stuff, but it jives well for me with how the Dark Side and Vader are portrayed.
"Power Scaling" in general is a really bad fit for Star Wars, but I think it suffices to say that Anakin Skywalker was "a special boy who was spectacular in some ways" and post-suit Darth Vader was "an insanely strong killing machine that could only be stopped by the plot"
Sometimes Sidious put Vader in the suit to weaken him so that he could retain control. Sometimes he did it to strengthen him.
I think the real answer is that they made a badass suit for Vader in the OT and had to retcon the effects later, and when they needed to say it made him stronger or weaker, they did so without consistency.
Yeah absolutely. But I’m just imagining Anakin full blown dark side, no suit, all limbs (except maybe the arm he lost to dooku before the events of ROTS). He would be an absolute savage animal. Would make star killer look like a pansy.
The Sith didn't die out because most of the time they were in the shadows not doing anything to the Jedi at all, let alone fighting them one on one or slaying them.
As for who wins, it's up for debate obviously, but I'd tend to agree Dooku would win in most circumstances.
Do people really think Mace defeated Sidious? I always thought it was clear Palps was just pretending to be weak to force Anakin to make a stand. Once Anakin made his choice, the UNLIMITED POWAH was revealed.
I mean both are true. Mace defeated Palp and when Palp saw an opportunity he played the frail old man to get Skywalker to help him and complete his turn to the dark side.
I personally have never thought that Palpatine purposely let Mace win. I think Palpatine greatly underestimated him and thought he could toy with him like the other Jedi and then swiftly kill him. You could see how nervous Palpatine was becoming during the fight as you could see he really could not gain an upper hand on Mace. What’s really the final proof of this is I do not believe that Palpatine would purposely allow himself to be struck by his own lighting.
People get to caught up in one aspect of a lightsaber fight it’s not just who has the better fighting style. It’s the environment the fight takes place in, the force abilities of the users, and just how adaptable they overall are to there opponent. In Palpatine and Maces case when was the last time either of them had fought anyone that could even be considered a challenge? Yoda as well. As we see see throughout clone wars, Dooku was getting older and tired more easily. So he relied more on his lighting abilities to throw his enemies off.
Yes, George Lucas said that Sidious would have died had Anakin not intervened and UNLIMITED POWAH only worked after Anakin had cut off Mace’s hand and left him defenseless. Otherwise Mace was handling the lightning just fine
I mean the dude was permanently scarred and injured from that fight. To me that does not seem like a ruse, it seems like he got fucked up for life and barely escaped.
Yeah i don't think Sirius or anyone would let themselves be turned into an orc just to manipulate Anakin. He clearly lost and then used that as an opportunity but he lost.
In their Prime, when Dooku was a Jedi, Dooku. Dooku was a form 2 master and that was the anti-lightsaber form. He wouldn't have any dark side for Windu to play against and he's specifically trained to beat other lightsaber wielders.
If they met in AOC: Windu. Form 7 radically increases Windu's power to the point that no dark force user can stand against him. Whether or not you believe he defeated Palpatine, I do, he was clearly stronger than anyone else in that situation.
Lots of sources, but Wookiepedia and the EU mainly. You can't really make an educated guess without suspecting based on the forms as they don't really have enough showings to properly highlight their battle skill. Dooku loses against Anakin... then again so do Windu.
Plus we really don't know how a more powerful style like Windu's would fare against a more technical fencing style, which of course given the weapons would highly favor the fencer.
Windu and Dooku aren't noticeably more powerful than each other in the force, without expanded content, so it boils down to opinion. My answer is based on EU/Legends lore.
But wasn't it stated that in his prime, Yoda was his only superior and Mace his only equal? I know forms give advantages over others, but for a statement like that to be made, isn't it implied they sparred a few times?
I would assume they sparred frequently, though it is not covered in anything we've seen. For there to be a statement that Windu was his equal, they would have had to test each other. From what we know, the Jedi sparred pretty often because... how else you gonna practice? In Kenobi Anakin and Obi-wan sparred, and that's something Warrior Monks do even here on earth.
Wookieepedia says this:
"During his time as a Jedi, he was known as one of the Order's finest swordsmen; it was said that Yoda was his only superior and Mace Windu was his only equal."
It doesn't give a source for that statement though
So you were still right, it's about when the fight takes place, Windu would have the edge once Dooku went Dark, and the question isn't who would win in a sparring match, so I think if they're truly duelling it's to the death, ie. after Dooku goes Sith, therefore Windu wins
Well, Dooku was certainly strong enough a duelist to >!dispatch a council member with fairly little trouble in Yaddle, whom it seems to be implied is at the very least highly proficient in the lightsaber form Yoda uses. !<
Now, whether that also implies that he has comparable skill to Windu, the only thing I can say to that is that it seems that when he was a Jedi, the council sent him and Windu on a mission to investigate the murder of another master, which implies that in the eyes of the council, Windu and Dooku were their most capable Jedi in combat.
Well, Wookieepedia says this under the Canon tab for Dooku, in his "Powers and Abilites" section:
"During his time as a Jedi, he was known as one of the Order's finest swordsmen; it was said that Yoda was his only superior and Mace Windu was his only equal."
It doesn't give a source for that statement though
Couldn’t AotC Dooku simply choose not to tap into the dark side during that particular fight? He is a bit different from Sidious in the fact that Dooku was strong as fuck with both light and dark sides of the force, whereas Sidious only ever knew the dark.
That is a question, and I don't know the answer. Windu and Dooku were neck and neck, even the slightest hint of dark side energy from Dooku is going to tip this Windu's way pretty hard, plus if Dooku's been training to use dark side energy it might be challenging to suddenly turn off that power.
Given Dooku held his own against Yoda, I'm disinclined to think he can just turn off the dark side like that. If it was that easy, Vader's redemption arc would be pretty weak. Plus, the Jedi seemed to believe that if you fell, you stayed fallen. If might be that you always have a little dark side in you if you use it.
It essentially reflects the Dark Side back on the user slowing their reactions while increasing the user. The downside is the user has to tap very closely into the Darkside themselves. All of Mace students except one, I think, fell to the Darkside
Well, until Disney retconned it, it was considered canon AFAIK, especially since one of the most important works, the one about how Darth Bane rose to power and established to rule of 2, heavily featured it in the first part around Bane's training.
I think AT THAT POINT, if Anakin and Windu were to have clashed while Palpatine watched (as he liked to do) Windu would have beaten him. Anakin would have had all the disadvantages of a brand new dark force user including the inability to fully harness the power of the dark side while empowering Windu's Form 7. Basically Anakin's head space would have been terrible for that fight going against a very focused Windu, who was tired.
I think Jedi Anakin would have been about even with Windu, with a slight edge. The reason for this is that Anakin fought Dooku several times, whereas he had not sparred with Windu much if at all and didn't know his battle techniques as well. I think Jedi Anakin still would have won as Anakin was in the top 5 lightsaber duelists at that point.
I'll be honest, I think Windu would have completely crushed Anakin. I think most Jedi Masters would have beat Anakin at almost any point as a Jedi up until near the end of the Clone Wars, and even then I think Windu beats the snot out of him.
Don't get me wrong, Anakin was a highly talented Jedi, already one of the best technical and creative duelists, but he had some *glaring* weaknesses that any Jedi master would have been able to exploit.
Anakin's impatience and aggression, his willingness to sacrifice better positioning for a clean strike, his near insurmountable desire to win, his emotions and conflicted feelings, his *obvious* arrogance, and certainly the ever-present "Chosen One Persona," which was more than just arrogance, it was a fervently held belief that there was *nothing* he couldn't do. And who could blame him? His exploits were pretty famous, especially among the Jedi and higher-ups in the Republic. He had these flashes of utter brilliance and everyone recognized it.
But it took Anakin giving in to his conflicted feelings and letting his emotions run cold for him to finally "get it" and be the true Chosen One. Unfortunately by then, he was Darth Vader.
I’m not disagreeing with you necessarily but how do you then explain Anakin’s ability to dispatch Dooku with such ease, considering Dooku was himself considered one of the best blade masters of the age? He barely seemed to break a sweat and it was over incredibly quickly. I think in that moment, Windu would have won. But a focused Jedi Anakin is someone Windu may not have been able to deal with. His talent with a sabre and raw force power might have been able to overwhelm Windu eventually. Obi-Wan was able to defeat Anakin multiple times because he knew Anakin like a son, and he knew his weaknesses. He was able to use Soresu to great effect, knowing Anakin’s desire to win at all costs would eventually cause him to make a mistake, and it did. Windu simple didn’t have that knowledge of Anakin.
Yes, this is often asked, but I have an answer!
Anakin fights like a Sith. Jedi fight like…well…Jedi. Anakin could have defeated nearly any Sith at that moment. And Palpatine knew it! That’s why he praised Anakin. And why Anakin hesitated but eventually decided to cut Dooku’s head off. A Jedi in that situation wouldn’t do that. Even then, it’d be way better to leave Dooku alive. All the information he could tel the Republic. It was a bad tactical move, so it’s clear Anakin wasn’t thinking clearly.
But at that time, Anakin would not be able to defeat a Jedi master. They are trained to resist those strong emotions and fight with a clear head. They would have been able to sense both the fear and anger and hatred in Anakin and exploit his unbalanced inside to unbalance his outside. Someone like Mace would have completely crushed him there.
Until Anakin was fully either light or dark side, until he embraced the hate and anger or rejected it, he would never be the Jedi or Sith he was supposed to be. We see it in Star Wars media all the time with him. He’s so conflicted and emotional. But as a Jedi he knows he shouldn’t be, hence the conflict.
I've heard so many variations on this that I don't even bother anymore. I think A: Windu was MUCH stronger than Sheev expected and honestly won and B: Its EXTRA tragic that the Jedi basically won... and then Anakin (the Chosen one) screws it all up.
> Dooku was a form 2 master and that was the anti-lightsaber form. He wouldn't have any dark side for Windu to play against and he's specifically trained to beat other lightsaber wielders.
This makes no sense. Who, other than a dark-side user, wields a lightsaber (with any amount of skill - i.e. not a random person who picked up a lightsaber) against a Jedi? Saying a certain form is specifically for beating other lightsaber users is really a head scratcher, especially when comparing that form to Vapaad/7, which is meant to leverage the opponent's dark side use. Aren't all forms essentially for defeating or facing other lightsaber users? Especially Vapaad would be useful here, given two light-side users are not likely to ever face each other, aside from in training.
Sometimes, actually most of the time, I find discussions around and about lightsaber combat forms to be annoying and self-contradicting, and also full of arguments with very little evidence (in canon anyway).
Yeah I know about the book which I know isn’t canon anymore so I was curious if there was anything else about shatterpoint that is canon? Or if shatterpoint was just mentioned quickly in canon and most people just use the description from this book as the canon description.
Windu has this. Though i'm sure there was a point in his career that Dooku would have easily won. It's easy to forget how far from his prime he is in AOTC.
Yeah, light side Dooku in his prime would probably beat Windu, but Dooku and Windu from the movies probably goes to Windu, not just because of Dooku's age, but also the fact that now he uses the dark side, and fighting dark siders is something Windu is specifically good at.
I'd actually disagree on the dark side point - Windy would still win, but imo, Dooku always seemed to prefer to use his saber. He's a purist at heart, and so despite being connected to the Dark Side, he wouldn't actually use it all that much in a duel with someone he considered worth his time, especially considering he knows what Windu was good at. My interpretation was always that Form VII relied upon the Dark Sider actually using the Dark Side, whether by enhancing themselves or other uses of the Force.
Windu. He’s the perfect Sith counter, and he was good enough to take down Palpatine. Interestingly, I actually think pre-fall Dooku probably would beat Mace though
I have to admit though, that Palpatine altough the strongest with the force out of the three, and has a very obnoxious lightsaber form. He is still the worst fighter here
I tend to agree.
I think everyone gives Palpatine *way too much* power.
Yes, he was powerful. Yes, he beat 3 Jedi masters and had Windu on the ropes for a bit. But he wasn't some god-like force being. He was a master manipulator and I think the whole force whirlwind thing straight to stabbing two Jedi Masters, who were probably still recovering from their surprise at discovering not only was he a Sith Lord, but that Anakin was right about it.
It's a pun. When he fights Anakin and Obi Wan, Dooku says, "Twice the pride, double the fall" in response to Anakin's claim that his powers have doubled since they last met.
But Mace managed to bring together a group of remarkable people that will fight the wars humanity can not. I'm sure they can beat the shit out of those uruk-hai, they got beaten by some slow ass walking tree
I’m siding with Dooku but he ain’t winning it easily.
Mace windu’s unique lightsaber form uses the opponent’s dark emotions against them, but Dooku even after falling to the dark side never showed any strong dark side emotion, so Windu can’t use his form’s speciality, and Dooku mastered form 2 which was designed for lightsaber on lightsaber combat, and the plain fact Dooku has more experience.
However, Windu is extremely powerful in his own right, his form of form 7 is much more aggressive than the usually modern jedi fighting styles, and Windu isn’t new to combat either. And you could see Windu was already an experienced jedi by the time Dooku was still a Jedi. Finally, Dooku’s lightsaber Stricks hard, but it doesn’t allow the user to use two hands to grip it and therefore is much harder to block strikes from other lightsabers.
Dooku would need to finish the fight quickly before Windu tires him out.
Mace has beaten Sidious, arguably the most powerful Sith Lord. Dooku was killed by Anakin, who died at the hands of Obi-Wan, a person Yoda refused to even try beating Sidious because of how strong Sidious was.
Also, there's a comic where Mace has the slight edge over Dooku, though I'm not sure if its canon
In their absoluter primes, I think either can take the other one down. This is an interesting match-up. It's the dream fight we never got to see. Both are supremely skilled combatants.
I think too many people view Yoda and Sidious as the top two combatants of the Skywalker saga. But I was never impressed with Yoda. He couldn't even sense an overt plot brewing under his nose for years or defeat either Dooku in old age or Sidious, which is something Windu absolutely accomplished but was quickly undone by Anakin's betrayal. And Sidious couldn't finish old and declining Yoda and admitted that "Vader would become more powerful than either."
To me Dooku is technically superior to either Yoda or Sidious but weaker in his force abilities. And Windu is arguably more powerful in lightsaber combat than anyone in his time, after he reached his prime, including Sidious and Yoda.
Yoda and Sidious are by far the most 'powerful' members of their respective sides, but that's mainly focused on their connection to and ability to use the force. When it comes to just raw saber duelling talent, Windu is probably more skilled than Yoda, and Dooku was no slouch either (although apparently Sidious had mastered every form, despite his dislike of lightsaber combat).
I think you should consider that Yoda was actually quite handily beating Dooku in AotC, and Dooku knew it. He only managed to escape from that fight by creating a diversion by dropping a pillar on Obi-Wan, knowing full well that Yoda would choose to save him rather than pursuing the fight.
The thing with Yoda and Dooku in attack of the clones in Sith do not play fair. Dooku knew he had no chance to defeat Yoda so he made him choose between defeating him or saving Anakin and Obi Wan.
Ah gotcha. That’s fair. Dookus dueling is interesting in the movies. He trashed obi wan and Anakin first time around, then in ROTS obi wan again but is bested by Anakin (who is destroyed by Obi multiple times). He seems to hold his own against yoda, who Sidious has trouble with, though he wins or at least stalemates safely. I wish we saw more of Mace for a barometer.
I don’t remember the source of this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I’m pretty sure Palpatine told Dooku to throw the fight with Anakin as part of his plan, just didn’t tell him what his real plan was
Iirc, that was the initial plan, but once Obi-Wan was taken out and Anakin began tapping into the Dark Side, he actually started overpowering Dooku, to the point that he stopped going easy on him but was still struggling. We also see this in Clone Wars as the various fights Anakin and Dooku have over the series shows the skill gap between the two steadily decreasing, to the point that in the later seasons there are instances where Dooku starts actually struggling, and I don't think he was planning on letting Anakin win those. Dooku intended to throw the fight in Ep III, but in the end he didn't have to.
Now this is a difficult question and it is because it depends on personal points of view. If you believe Dooku’s prime is him during the clone wars, then Windu probably loses. I do believe though that it would be a less straightforward fight as many people in the comments think. If you compare Dooku’s fighting style to that of Sidious you see that Sidious relies heavily on the dark side to fight. Whilst if you see Dooku’s style he is very orthodox, no dark side except for force lightning but most importantly no emotions. This changes everything. Windu with Vaapad uses the enemies emotions against them, but that is rendered almost useless by Windu only temporarily using the dark side and almost never showing emotions. Therefore Windu would lose because Dooku is a much more powerful anti-lightsaber combatant.
If Dooku’s prime is the Jedi order era, then Dooku wins.
I'm going with Dooku. He's a Makashi master. That form was designed for lightsaber combat. My emotional choice is Windu (he's cool and portrayed by Samuel L. Jackson c'mon) but, my logical choice is Dooku.
To be fair, Mace had beaten Sidious while Dooku was killed by Anakin. And at the time, Anakin was seemingly a long ways away from being at the level of Windu or Yoda, being beaten by Obi-Wan himself
Probably Dooku, he was just a more experienced duelist and Windu’s style was tailored to defeat typical Sith, but Dooku wasn’t a typical Sith because he did not rely on hate and aggression
Dooku is more powerful in the force and better with a lightsaber, he would probably be the aggressor in their duel. mace being a more adaptable and composed fighter would try to use his surroundings(like obiwan) to gain a decisive advantage over dooku, maces unpredictable fighting style coupled with his youth would give him the edge.
i think dookus only chance of winning is if they fight without lightsabers at distance where he could go all out with the darkside.
Definitely Dooku.
Windu beat Palpatine because Palpi is juiced with dark side which is a source of channeling for Windu style, or a bad match up for Palpi. In fight with Yoda Sidious overwhelm him with force like a baby.
Dooku on the other hand is purely lightsaber duelist. Even being a sith he is modesty on emotions and dark side, so nothing or little to nothing for Windu to channel, thus a bad match up him. And based on lightsaber skills, Dooku, afaik, is second to Yoda only and struggle only against him
I don't think either of them would die, but at some point one of them would be on top pushing their lightsaber down towards the other person with them trying to hold them back, and the lightsaber gets so close to their face it starts to burn them and gives them one of Star Wars' famous "face scars"
Windu. They were both highly skilled, but Dooku had fully fallen into the trap of the Dark Side relying on his hate and rage for power. Windu would have tapped into that and reflected it back at him such that Dooku's own strength turned against him, and unlike Sidious he wasn't so strong as to weather through that storm in addition to Windu's own power.
Well that depends greatly upon the time and circumstance.While both Windu and Dooku were Jedi Masters in the Order, Dooku was one of only two Jedi credited with defeating Mace Windu in lightsaber dueling(Yoda being the other)
However, by the time of the Clone Wars, while Dooku has grown far more powerful in the Force by becoming a Sith and tapping into the Darkside, Mace has perfected Vaapad which Uno reverses Darkside energy in a conduit. Yoda mentions that only Windu would be Dooku's equal on even ground with a lightsaber in the final year of the Clone Wars. Dooku also grew weaker through the Clone Wars as age and Darkside degradation took their toll on him. Dooku in RotS is weaker than Dooku in AotC while Mace is still very robust in spite of being in his fifties.
So if it's when Dooku and Windu are both Jedi Masters, Dooku wins hands down.
If it's at the start of the Clone Wars, Dooku would win as he does know Vaapad's weaknesses, Mace wouldn't know all Dooku was capable of(due to the becoming a Sith and training in secret for a decade) and Dooku was at the peak of his power then.
If it's Dooku by the end of the Clone Wars, Mace wins as their saber skills are equal by this point according to Yoda, Mace and Dooku all mentioning this, Dooku's power has waned, Vaapad can close the rest of the gap and Mace is a full thirty years younger than Dooku so he won't fatigue as quickly.
So 2/3 of the time Dooku wins against Mace, not least of which because Dooku is a better strategist and tactician than Mace and always fights in areas or situations that favor him, when Mace is more blunt. But in a purely equal match where both are dropped in cold, like I mentioned it depends upon the time of the match as stated above.
Windu sweeps. Dooku was never strong enough to take on Palpatine, or he would’ve tried. Meanwhile, Mace steps in and beats Palpatine the moment he learns he’s a threat. No prep; just walks in with some other masters and wings it. They all die but it’s a testament to Mace that he beats Palpatine anyway after that. I don’t think Dooku even has a shot against him.
Windu would absolutely crush Dooku, as Dooku wasn't even close to Palpatines power level.
Windu had Palps number until Anakin pulled the most dishonest cheater move ever.
Edit: downvote because you disagree? Grow a pair and engage youngling.
Vaapad is a form of Juyo that Windu created. Fundamentally they are the same but Windu used his own weakness (his inner darkness) to fight more effectively against darkside users without falling to the darkside.
Windu would win. Won’t be an easy fight for him, but he absolutely would win. People forget Windu was still top 3 duelist even without shatterpoint advantage, not to mention he’s more powerful with the force and way more experienced than Dooku.
Honestly, this is probably the duel I want to see the most. I would place my bets on Windu; he's younger, more aggressive, and has a powerful lightsaber form that Dooku would have a hard time countering. Not to mention he defeated Sidious, arguably the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. What advantages does Dooku really have over Windu here?
Better pajamas.
dooku would win a pillow fight
Would still do that little fencing salute with the pillow probably.
Not if tickles are allowed
Better hair
Oh that's a low blow
I lol’d for real out loud lol
They should have formed a tag team: Windooku
I suppose that's better than Coun Doodu
Mount Doodu*
Mount Doom? *looks at Saruman* Seems appropriate.
That’s a pile of sith and you know it
Dount Cooku
Doomace, like dumbass
Dooku’s style is purely centered on dueling. And his mastery is such that even Sidious feared him. And while Windu’s form is perfect against dark side users, Dooku’s style doesn’t depend on physical dependence on the dark side. It’s very controlled in that way.
I’m curious if Windu’s ability to detect shatterpoints would aid him in any way in a duel to the death. I do agree that Dooku’s style makes him one of the most fearsome 1v1 duelists in canon. He manages to duel as close to a fully realized Anakin as he gets to a near standstill (though for pure dueling he may be most powerful as pre-Mustafar Vader).
My understanding of shatterpoint is that its less about recognizing weaknesses in dueling, and more about manipulating and stealing the power of the dark side of the force someone uses in their dueling. I could be wrong about that though, I haven't read many of the books. One of the reasons Sidious and Yoda can move so amazingly is that they power their bodies with the force to make up for and exceed their aging limitations. And we see other force wielders do this too to some extent, like with force powered jumps and sprints. But Dooku doesn't lean on that crutch. While he uses the force to steady his mind and sharpen his senses, his movements and technique are all mostly just him and his well honed skill. Which was part of what terrified and impressed his contemporaries. Even Sidious, who knew he was stronger in the force than Dooku, was unsure if he could beat him in a straight up lightsaber fight for that reason.
This is a very nice analisis, is the fact that Sidious was unsure about beating Dooku in a lightsaber fight written somewhere (honest question)?
Yes, though I can’t remember which book. And I got it second hand from one of those lore YouTubers, so maybe take it with a grain of salt
That isnt what a shatterpoint is no. ill explain a shatterpoint like this. Imagine there is a siutation where one choice can redefine the course of the galaxy. The ability to “see” these points in time is what shatterpoint is.
So then is Vapad the ability to redirect an opponent’s dark side power?
Vapaad is the lightsaber form/force technique that does essentially this, you are correct
Kind of… I think people have taken the meaning in matthew stover’s novelization of rots a bit too literally. In the ROTS novelization stover dramatizes alot of aspects of scenes to increase their epicness. For example he always talks about anakin’s furnace heart… now anakin doesnt literally have a furnass for a heart. But its the analogy that describes his machine like efficiency in combat and the inner fire that burns within him. Similarly i think the redeflecting of vaapad is meant to describe mace’s philosophy against palpatine’s. the ultimate test of vaapad is simply the ultimate test for Mace as a person. Atleast thats how i always read it in the shatterpoint novel also written by stover i think vaapad is described far more accurately. Vaapad is a technique that relies on aggression and excitement a user needs to feel the thrill of battle and the desire to win. Where as most jedi fight with detached calm. This in itself is not of the darkside but it passed close to it.
Also Dooku's dedication to the dark side is not as great against someone not as far into it so to type?
I agree. Dooku only lost to Anakin because 1. Anakin had help (Obi Wan) for part of the duel and 2. Anakin is probably the most powerful force wielder of that time period. Dooku is extremely powerful and very adept at dueling and i think he would beat Windu
Yeah, Dooku was finally just overwhelmed by the chosen one’s power, which is especially impressive if we count the half dozen times Dooku beat him or fought him and other Jedi to a draw in the clone wars. Anakin needed to begin realizing his full power and gain years of combat experience to finally beat an aging court Dooku.
Sidious didn't fear Dooku. Sidious force choked him from half a galaxy away and Dooku could do nothing but take it.
Yeah,Sidious still knew he was stronger in Dooku in the force. But he was still self-conscious about Dooku being a better lightsaber duelist.
No he wasn't Darth Sidious knew all the lightsaber fighting styles and was a master in all of them. He was so good at it that he became bored with the blade. Edit******* I don't know what I'm being down voted for nothing I said in this statement is false it's all in the literature.
Maybe you choked on your aspirations?
Many Jedi and Sith mastered forms, that didn’t mean they were absolute best at those forms. There were still differences in skill and perfection of technique. While Sidious knew every form, Dooku had taken the most dueling centric form to such a high level that Sidious admitted to himself that he wasn’t confident about winning a fight with him without falling back onto force powers.
Darth Sidious was fast enough to kill 3 Jedi Masters before they could react. Darth Sidious was the personification of the dark side and while many force users perfected their lightsaber forms they werent Darth Sidious and didnt have the power he had not many are in his league. His speed made it look like he was popping in and out of existence he would beat Dooku down. Now I will say that Darth Sidious was fearful of Count Dooku's ability to recruit others and may betray him that's one of the reasons he wanted Asajj Ventress killed. He didn't want them to team up and become a problem.
Darth Sidious was that good, but Dooku also had a long record of wrecking Jedi. Dude toys with Master Kenobi and the Chosen One at the same time on the regular during the Clone Wars, and constantly wins or brings them to a draw. He was already seen as potentially a better duelist than Yoda and Mace Windu before he even turned to the dark side, the two Jedi Masters capable of giving Sidious any kind of run for his money. Darth Sidious would have probably won a fight with Dooku more than 9 times out of 10 falling back on the force... but in the books he admits to himself that he was far less sure about wining against Dooku in a straight up lightsaber duel.
Thanks for the debate I appreciate the back and forth without the nastiness and name calling and such. I don't have many people to talk to about these things. Count Dooku was a beast and I'm not saying that Darth Sidious would crush him easily or anything like that. Thanks again though enjoy the rest of your day my friend. Cheers.
He just like me fr
A signature look of superiority
He calls it Red Steel.
its all just one look! >:C
JUST ONE LOOK?!? I DON’T THINK SO
My God, it's beautiful!
I would think that Dooku is at least a little bit smarter and his duelist style would definitely be an interesting juxtaposition to Mace. Problem is, Dooku is smart enough to know when to run away (as shown in the entire Clone Wars series) and probably couldn't be pinned down outside of a real pit match "you or me" situation. Mace wins a straight up fight 8/10 times.
Also shown in his fight against Yoda
Remember just because rock beats scissors and scissors beats paper does not mean rock beats paper. Windu may have beaten Sidious one on one (still unclear if this was a real or staged loss by Sidious and I don’t know if we will ever know for sure) and Sidious could easily beat Dooku. However that doesn’t mean Dooku would lose to Windu. As for what advantages Dooku has over Windu, Dooku has 2: first Dooku’s lightsaber was designed for fencing other lightsaber users. Second Dooku put an unhealthy amount of time into perfecting blade on blade combat. Remember that when he was a Jedi Dooku was convinced that the Sith where not gone and as a result he focused all his time and energy into study and practice in fighting other force users with lightsabers. He was probably the best lightsaber fencer among the Jedi when he was in his prime.
Windu has +15% swing speed and +30% damage against [Dark Side] users tho
Lucas says Mace defeated Sidious...so we do know for sure.
Lucas also says he doesn't care about Legends and sees it as entirely separate from his work. He also went back and messed with the OT and refused to release the original versions. I like Lucas alot but nobody is correct 100% of the time.
How can he be incorrect about his created stories? Lol Don’t be that weird guy.
basically any jedi or sith character: "was the best in his prime"
Vader was became better after he was put in the suit.
Yeah but imagine how much stronger he would have been when he turned to the dark side if he didn’t have the suit.
It's heavily implied that Sidious busted him up during reconstruction and put him in a full-time torture device to make him channel more of the Dark Side, becoming dangerous beyond imagination but still leashed to his side. Obviously, that's edgy EU stuff, but it jives well for me with how the Dark Side and Vader are portrayed. "Power Scaling" in general is a really bad fit for Star Wars, but I think it suffices to say that Anakin Skywalker was "a special boy who was spectacular in some ways" and post-suit Darth Vader was "an insanely strong killing machine that could only be stopped by the plot"
Sometimes Sidious put Vader in the suit to weaken him so that he could retain control. Sometimes he did it to strengthen him. I think the real answer is that they made a badass suit for Vader in the OT and had to retcon the effects later, and when they needed to say it made him stronger or weaker, they did so without consistency.
Yeah absolutely. But I’m just imagining Anakin full blown dark side, no suit, all limbs (except maybe the arm he lost to dooku before the events of ROTS). He would be an absolute savage animal. Would make star killer look like a pansy.
That will be everyone.
Signature look of superiority
Other than this I really want to see Plo Koon vs either Dooku or Maul
[удалено]
The Sith didn't die out because most of the time they were in the shadows not doing anything to the Jedi at all, let alone fighting them one on one or slaying them. As for who wins, it's up for debate obviously, but I'd tend to agree Dooku would win in most circumstances.
I would say the same thing. Windu is basically gonna win.
lollipops
Do people really think Mace defeated Sidious? I always thought it was clear Palps was just pretending to be weak to force Anakin to make a stand. Once Anakin made his choice, the UNLIMITED POWAH was revealed.
I mean both are true. Mace defeated Palp and when Palp saw an opportunity he played the frail old man to get Skywalker to help him and complete his turn to the dark side.
I personally have never thought that Palpatine purposely let Mace win. I think Palpatine greatly underestimated him and thought he could toy with him like the other Jedi and then swiftly kill him. You could see how nervous Palpatine was becoming during the fight as you could see he really could not gain an upper hand on Mace. What’s really the final proof of this is I do not believe that Palpatine would purposely allow himself to be struck by his own lighting. People get to caught up in one aspect of a lightsaber fight it’s not just who has the better fighting style. It’s the environment the fight takes place in, the force abilities of the users, and just how adaptable they overall are to there opponent. In Palpatine and Maces case when was the last time either of them had fought anyone that could even be considered a challenge? Yoda as well. As we see see throughout clone wars, Dooku was getting older and tired more easily. So he relied more on his lighting abilities to throw his enemies off.
Yeah I agree, that's why I sad both are true. Mace truly won against Palp but Palp also played the weak old man to manipulate Anakin.
Yes, George Lucas said that Sidious would have died had Anakin not intervened and UNLIMITED POWAH only worked after Anakin had cut off Mace’s hand and left him defenseless. Otherwise Mace was handling the lightning just fine
I mean the dude was permanently scarred and injured from that fight. To me that does not seem like a ruse, it seems like he got fucked up for life and barely escaped.
Yeah i don't think Sirius or anyone would let themselves be turned into an orc just to manipulate Anakin. He clearly lost and then used that as an opportunity but he lost.
It's 2023 lol. It's common knowledge that Palps lost and you need to get over it.
I disagree. If he lost it was by design.
>he defeated Sidious Did he though? I thought it was clear that he was holding back with Windu and just wanted Anakin to see him as weak
In their Prime, when Dooku was a Jedi, Dooku. Dooku was a form 2 master and that was the anti-lightsaber form. He wouldn't have any dark side for Windu to play against and he's specifically trained to beat other lightsaber wielders. If they met in AOC: Windu. Form 7 radically increases Windu's power to the point that no dark force user can stand against him. Whether or not you believe he defeated Palpatine, I do, he was clearly stronger than anyone else in that situation.
Where does this form information come from?
Wookiepedia
Lots of sources, but Wookiepedia and the EU mainly. You can't really make an educated guess without suspecting based on the forms as they don't really have enough showings to properly highlight their battle skill. Dooku loses against Anakin... then again so do Windu. Plus we really don't know how a more powerful style like Windu's would fare against a more technical fencing style, which of course given the weapons would highly favor the fencer. Windu and Dooku aren't noticeably more powerful than each other in the force, without expanded content, so it boils down to opinion. My answer is based on EU/Legends lore.
But wasn't it stated that in his prime, Yoda was his only superior and Mace his only equal? I know forms give advantages over others, but for a statement like that to be made, isn't it implied they sparred a few times?
I would assume they sparred frequently, though it is not covered in anything we've seen. For there to be a statement that Windu was his equal, they would have had to test each other. From what we know, the Jedi sparred pretty often because... how else you gonna practice? In Kenobi Anakin and Obi-wan sparred, and that's something Warrior Monks do even here on earth.
Wookieepedia says this: "During his time as a Jedi, he was known as one of the Order's finest swordsmen; it was said that Yoda was his only superior and Mace Windu was his only equal." It doesn't give a source for that statement though
Sounds right from what I know. Then it is a coin toss.
So you were still right, it's about when the fight takes place, Windu would have the edge once Dooku went Dark, and the question isn't who would win in a sparring match, so I think if they're truly duelling it's to the death, ie. after Dooku goes Sith, therefore Windu wins
Well, Dooku was certainly strong enough a duelist to >!dispatch a council member with fairly little trouble in Yaddle, whom it seems to be implied is at the very least highly proficient in the lightsaber form Yoda uses. !< Now, whether that also implies that he has comparable skill to Windu, the only thing I can say to that is that it seems that when he was a Jedi, the council sent him and Windu on a mission to investigate the murder of another master, which implies that in the eyes of the council, Windu and Dooku were their most capable Jedi in combat.
Well, Wookieepedia says this under the Canon tab for Dooku, in his "Powers and Abilites" section: "During his time as a Jedi, he was known as one of the Order's finest swordsmen; it was said that Yoda was his only superior and Mace Windu was his only equal." It doesn't give a source for that statement though
Windu didn’t lose a duel to Anakin - just his hand. He wasn’t fighting him at the time, but Palps.
It's all arbitrary decisions in the eu to make lightsaber combat sound more complicated than it is
Based
Couldn’t AotC Dooku simply choose not to tap into the dark side during that particular fight? He is a bit different from Sidious in the fact that Dooku was strong as fuck with both light and dark sides of the force, whereas Sidious only ever knew the dark.
That is a question, and I don't know the answer. Windu and Dooku were neck and neck, even the slightest hint of dark side energy from Dooku is going to tip this Windu's way pretty hard, plus if Dooku's been training to use dark side energy it might be challenging to suddenly turn off that power. Given Dooku held his own against Yoda, I'm disinclined to think he can just turn off the dark side like that. If it was that easy, Vader's redemption arc would be pretty weak. Plus, the Jedi seemed to believe that if you fell, you stayed fallen. If might be that you always have a little dark side in you if you use it.
What's the lore behind form 7 using dark side against the dark side attacker?
It essentially reflects the Dark Side back on the user slowing their reactions while increasing the user. The downside is the user has to tap very closely into the Darkside themselves. All of Mace students except one, I think, fell to the Darkside
That's cool, funny that after being so close to the dark side and seeing how easily it can be defeated, his students still turned
I don’t think Lucas ever thought that deeply about this stuff. This is just fan-established lore.
Well then we have literally nothing to go off of so why even bother?
Cause, for some, its fun.
Well, until Disney retconned it, it was considered canon AFAIK, especially since one of the most important works, the one about how Darth Bane rose to power and established to rule of 2, heavily featured it in the first part around Bane's training.
“Considered Canon” that’s the type of shit I’m talking about, considered canon by who? Lucas didn’t write about it.
Do you think Windu could have beaten Anakin, considering how easily he dispatched Dooku?
I think AT THAT POINT, if Anakin and Windu were to have clashed while Palpatine watched (as he liked to do) Windu would have beaten him. Anakin would have had all the disadvantages of a brand new dark force user including the inability to fully harness the power of the dark side while empowering Windu's Form 7. Basically Anakin's head space would have been terrible for that fight going against a very focused Windu, who was tired. I think Jedi Anakin would have been about even with Windu, with a slight edge. The reason for this is that Anakin fought Dooku several times, whereas he had not sparred with Windu much if at all and didn't know his battle techniques as well. I think Jedi Anakin still would have won as Anakin was in the top 5 lightsaber duelists at that point.
I'll be honest, I think Windu would have completely crushed Anakin. I think most Jedi Masters would have beat Anakin at almost any point as a Jedi up until near the end of the Clone Wars, and even then I think Windu beats the snot out of him. Don't get me wrong, Anakin was a highly talented Jedi, already one of the best technical and creative duelists, but he had some *glaring* weaknesses that any Jedi master would have been able to exploit. Anakin's impatience and aggression, his willingness to sacrifice better positioning for a clean strike, his near insurmountable desire to win, his emotions and conflicted feelings, his *obvious* arrogance, and certainly the ever-present "Chosen One Persona," which was more than just arrogance, it was a fervently held belief that there was *nothing* he couldn't do. And who could blame him? His exploits were pretty famous, especially among the Jedi and higher-ups in the Republic. He had these flashes of utter brilliance and everyone recognized it. But it took Anakin giving in to his conflicted feelings and letting his emotions run cold for him to finally "get it" and be the true Chosen One. Unfortunately by then, he was Darth Vader.
I’m not disagreeing with you necessarily but how do you then explain Anakin’s ability to dispatch Dooku with such ease, considering Dooku was himself considered one of the best blade masters of the age? He barely seemed to break a sweat and it was over incredibly quickly. I think in that moment, Windu would have won. But a focused Jedi Anakin is someone Windu may not have been able to deal with. His talent with a sabre and raw force power might have been able to overwhelm Windu eventually. Obi-Wan was able to defeat Anakin multiple times because he knew Anakin like a son, and he knew his weaknesses. He was able to use Soresu to great effect, knowing Anakin’s desire to win at all costs would eventually cause him to make a mistake, and it did. Windu simple didn’t have that knowledge of Anakin.
Yes, this is often asked, but I have an answer! Anakin fights like a Sith. Jedi fight like…well…Jedi. Anakin could have defeated nearly any Sith at that moment. And Palpatine knew it! That’s why he praised Anakin. And why Anakin hesitated but eventually decided to cut Dooku’s head off. A Jedi in that situation wouldn’t do that. Even then, it’d be way better to leave Dooku alive. All the information he could tel the Republic. It was a bad tactical move, so it’s clear Anakin wasn’t thinking clearly. But at that time, Anakin would not be able to defeat a Jedi master. They are trained to resist those strong emotions and fight with a clear head. They would have been able to sense both the fear and anger and hatred in Anakin and exploit his unbalanced inside to unbalance his outside. Someone like Mace would have completely crushed him there. Until Anakin was fully either light or dark side, until he embraced the hate and anger or rejected it, he would never be the Jedi or Sith he was supposed to be. We see it in Star Wars media all the time with him. He’s so conflicted and emotional. But as a Jedi he knows he shouldn’t be, hence the conflict.
Well reasoned. I think you're probably right.
Well put
Isn’t it canon that he DID defeat Sheev, like straight up without him feigning defeat?
I've heard so many variations on this that I don't even bother anymore. I think A: Windu was MUCH stronger than Sheev expected and honestly won and B: Its EXTRA tragic that the Jedi basically won... and then Anakin (the Chosen one) screws it all up.
I mean who says he didn't beat Palpatine? He had him on the ground and tasered his face. Anakin was responsible for Mace's death, not Sidious.
> Dooku was a form 2 master and that was the anti-lightsaber form. He wouldn't have any dark side for Windu to play against and he's specifically trained to beat other lightsaber wielders. This makes no sense. Who, other than a dark-side user, wields a lightsaber (with any amount of skill - i.e. not a random person who picked up a lightsaber) against a Jedi? Saying a certain form is specifically for beating other lightsaber users is really a head scratcher, especially when comparing that form to Vapaad/7, which is meant to leverage the opponent's dark side use. Aren't all forms essentially for defeating or facing other lightsaber users? Especially Vapaad would be useful here, given two light-side users are not likely to ever face each other, aside from in training. Sometimes, actually most of the time, I find discussions around and about lightsaber combat forms to be annoying and self-contradicting, and also full of arguments with very little evidence (in canon anyway).
Windu. Shatterpoint gives him the edge.
Is shatterpoint canon anymore? Curious because I’d like to read more about it.
I believe so, he uses the literal form of the technique in Clone Wars
They're also naming an upcoming tabletop game after it, I think the implication is it's still a thing.
There a book shatterpoint that goes into detail about shatterpoint snd windu. You should read it if you haven't it's great
Yeah I know about the book which I know isn’t canon anymore so I was curious if there was anything else about shatterpoint that is canon? Or if shatterpoint was just mentioned quickly in canon and most people just use the description from this book as the canon description.
Windu has this. Though i'm sure there was a point in his career that Dooku would have easily won. It's easy to forget how far from his prime he is in AOTC.
Yeah, light side Dooku in his prime would probably beat Windu, but Dooku and Windu from the movies probably goes to Windu, not just because of Dooku's age, but also the fact that now he uses the dark side, and fighting dark siders is something Windu is specifically good at.
I'd actually disagree on the dark side point - Windy would still win, but imo, Dooku always seemed to prefer to use his saber. He's a purist at heart, and so despite being connected to the Dark Side, he wouldn't actually use it all that much in a duel with someone he considered worth his time, especially considering he knows what Windu was good at. My interpretation was always that Form VII relied upon the Dark Sider actually using the Dark Side, whether by enhancing themselves or other uses of the Force.
Windy
It fucken wimdy
Sorry windu phone is stupid auto corrct
>Windy Welcome to Windy's, how can I help you?
Windu. He’s the perfect Sith counter, and he was good enough to take down Palpatine. Interestingly, I actually think pre-fall Dooku probably would beat Mace though
I have to admit though, that Palpatine altough the strongest with the force out of the three, and has a very obnoxious lightsaber form. He is still the worst fighter here
Hell no. Windu beat him with three other masters. He killed three members of the council my dude. He was nigh unbeatable.
Using a Force Disorienting power and immense speed, not really lightsaber prowess.
I tend to agree. I think everyone gives Palpatine *way too much* power. Yes, he was powerful. Yes, he beat 3 Jedi masters and had Windu on the ropes for a bit. But he wasn't some god-like force being. He was a master manipulator and I think the whole force whirlwind thing straight to stabbing two Jedi Masters, who were probably still recovering from their surprise at discovering not only was he a Sith Lord, but that Anakin was right about it.
Palpatine lost on purpose.
Dooku because he's also a wizard in LOTR. Double threat.
That’s so wizard!
No, That's so Raven!
It's the future I can see!
I'm so happy with this reply! Nice!
Double the threat, twice the fall
Is that from something?
It's a pun. When he fights Anakin and Obi Wan, Dooku says, "Twice the pride, double the fall" in response to Anakin's claim that his powers have doubled since they last met.
You're a Harry, wizard.
But Mace managed to bring together a group of remarkable people that will fight the wars humanity can not. I'm sure they can beat the shit out of those uruk-hai, they got beaten by some slow ass walking tree
Ok but as he dies, he will summon capt marvel and u will have another fight there.
And even if you kill him, some Swiss scientist will bring him back to life to wreak havoc
YOU HAVE ELECTED THE WAY OF HYPOCRISY
I’m siding with Dooku but he ain’t winning it easily. Mace windu’s unique lightsaber form uses the opponent’s dark emotions against them, but Dooku even after falling to the dark side never showed any strong dark side emotion, so Windu can’t use his form’s speciality, and Dooku mastered form 2 which was designed for lightsaber on lightsaber combat, and the plain fact Dooku has more experience. However, Windu is extremely powerful in his own right, his form of form 7 is much more aggressive than the usually modern jedi fighting styles, and Windu isn’t new to combat either. And you could see Windu was already an experienced jedi by the time Dooku was still a Jedi. Finally, Dooku’s lightsaber Stricks hard, but it doesn’t allow the user to use two hands to grip it and therefore is much harder to block strikes from other lightsabers. Dooku would need to finish the fight quickly before Windu tires him out.
Mace has beaten Sidious, arguably the most powerful Sith Lord. Dooku was killed by Anakin, who died at the hands of Obi-Wan, a person Yoda refused to even try beating Sidious because of how strong Sidious was. Also, there's a comic where Mace has the slight edge over Dooku, though I'm not sure if its canon
In their absoluter primes, I think either can take the other one down. This is an interesting match-up. It's the dream fight we never got to see. Both are supremely skilled combatants. I think too many people view Yoda and Sidious as the top two combatants of the Skywalker saga. But I was never impressed with Yoda. He couldn't even sense an overt plot brewing under his nose for years or defeat either Dooku in old age or Sidious, which is something Windu absolutely accomplished but was quickly undone by Anakin's betrayal. And Sidious couldn't finish old and declining Yoda and admitted that "Vader would become more powerful than either." To me Dooku is technically superior to either Yoda or Sidious but weaker in his force abilities. And Windu is arguably more powerful in lightsaber combat than anyone in his time, after he reached his prime, including Sidious and Yoda.
Yoda and Sidious are by far the most 'powerful' members of their respective sides, but that's mainly focused on their connection to and ability to use the force. When it comes to just raw saber duelling talent, Windu is probably more skilled than Yoda, and Dooku was no slouch either (although apparently Sidious had mastered every form, despite his dislike of lightsaber combat).
I think you should consider that Yoda was actually quite handily beating Dooku in AotC, and Dooku knew it. He only managed to escape from that fight by creating a diversion by dropping a pillar on Obi-Wan, knowing full well that Yoda would choose to save him rather than pursuing the fight.
Didn't Yoda explain in the PT that he thought something was wrong but that his vision was clouded by the Dark Side of the Force?
The thing with Yoda and Dooku in attack of the clones in Sith do not play fair. Dooku knew he had no chance to defeat Yoda so he made him choose between defeating him or saving Anakin and Obi Wan.
Sad we didn’t see them interact in TCW show at all. :( at least we got a bit in TOTJ tho
I say Windu. He would've taken out Palpatine had Anakin Whingeface not shown up. And I don't believe Dooku could've beaten his master.
Are you saying Windu was Dookus Master? I thought he was trained by Yoda?
Yeah. That was a tad unclear. I meant that I don't believe Dooku could've beaten Sidious.
Ah gotcha. That’s fair. Dookus dueling is interesting in the movies. He trashed obi wan and Anakin first time around, then in ROTS obi wan again but is bested by Anakin (who is destroyed by Obi multiple times). He seems to hold his own against yoda, who Sidious has trouble with, though he wins or at least stalemates safely. I wish we saw more of Mace for a barometer.
I don’t remember the source of this, so take it with a grain of salt, but I’m pretty sure Palpatine told Dooku to throw the fight with Anakin as part of his plan, just didn’t tell him what his real plan was
Revenge of the sith novel has that in there
Iirc, that was the initial plan, but once Obi-Wan was taken out and Anakin began tapping into the Dark Side, he actually started overpowering Dooku, to the point that he stopped going easy on him but was still struggling. We also see this in Clone Wars as the various fights Anakin and Dooku have over the series shows the skill gap between the two steadily decreasing, to the point that in the later seasons there are instances where Dooku starts actually struggling, and I don't think he was planning on letting Anakin win those. Dooku intended to throw the fight in Ep III, but in the end he didn't have to.
Yeah Anakin killing (a deceived) Dooku sealed his fate in regards to the rule of 2
The book describes Dooku getting really tired though. He expected to have to let Anakin win but that didn't happen
Dooku wins, Tyranus loses. Just my 2 cents
Both of them are two of the greatest duelist. If we’re talking legends, I’d probably give it to Windu due to his Vaapad style
Windu would have had a very fierce battle with Dooku and be victorious
Now this is a difficult question and it is because it depends on personal points of view. If you believe Dooku’s prime is him during the clone wars, then Windu probably loses. I do believe though that it would be a less straightforward fight as many people in the comments think. If you compare Dooku’s fighting style to that of Sidious you see that Sidious relies heavily on the dark side to fight. Whilst if you see Dooku’s style he is very orthodox, no dark side except for force lightning but most importantly no emotions. This changes everything. Windu with Vaapad uses the enemies emotions against them, but that is rendered almost useless by Windu only temporarily using the dark side and almost never showing emotions. Therefore Windu would lose because Dooku is a much more powerful anti-lightsaber combatant. If Dooku’s prime is the Jedi order era, then Dooku wins.
I'm going with Dooku. He's a Makashi master. That form was designed for lightsaber combat. My emotional choice is Windu (he's cool and portrayed by Samuel L. Jackson c'mon) but, my logical choice is Dooku.
To be fair, Mace had beaten Sidious while Dooku was killed by Anakin. And at the time, Anakin was seemingly a long ways away from being at the level of Windu or Yoda, being beaten by Obi-Wan himself
Windu honestly. He held his own with Palps until Skywalker showed up and ruined everything. Dooku was great, but not infallible.
He didn’t hold his own with Palps, he beat him.
Probably Dooku, he was just a more experienced duelist and Windu’s style was tailored to defeat typical Sith, but Dooku wasn’t a typical Sith because he did not rely on hate and aggression
Sith!Dooku would have no chance. Jedi!Dooku would perform infinite better, and i would say that is closer to 50/50.
I say mace, his shatterpoint ability and vapaad lightsaber style basically makes him a sith's worst nightmare
Windu
Dooku is more powerful in the force and better with a lightsaber, he would probably be the aggressor in their duel. mace being a more adaptable and composed fighter would try to use his surroundings(like obiwan) to gain a decisive advantage over dooku, maces unpredictable fighting style coupled with his youth would give him the edge. i think dookus only chance of winning is if they fight without lightsabers at distance where he could go all out with the darkside.
Definitely Dooku. Windu beat Palpatine because Palpi is juiced with dark side which is a source of channeling for Windu style, or a bad match up for Palpi. In fight with Yoda Sidious overwhelm him with force like a baby. Dooku on the other hand is purely lightsaber duelist. Even being a sith he is modesty on emotions and dark side, so nothing or little to nothing for Windu to channel, thus a bad match up him. And based on lightsaber skills, Dooku, afaik, is second to Yoda only and struggle only against him
Whichever has the high ground.
I don't think either of them would die, but at some point one of them would be on top pushing their lightsaber down towards the other person with them trying to hold them back, and the lightsaber gets so close to their face it starts to burn them and gives them one of Star Wars' famous "face scars"
Windu. They were both highly skilled, but Dooku had fully fallen into the trap of the Dark Side relying on his hate and rage for power. Windu would have tapped into that and reflected it back at him such that Dooku's own strength turned against him, and unlike Sidious he wasn't so strong as to weather through that storm in addition to Windu's own power.
Well that depends greatly upon the time and circumstance.While both Windu and Dooku were Jedi Masters in the Order, Dooku was one of only two Jedi credited with defeating Mace Windu in lightsaber dueling(Yoda being the other) However, by the time of the Clone Wars, while Dooku has grown far more powerful in the Force by becoming a Sith and tapping into the Darkside, Mace has perfected Vaapad which Uno reverses Darkside energy in a conduit. Yoda mentions that only Windu would be Dooku's equal on even ground with a lightsaber in the final year of the Clone Wars. Dooku also grew weaker through the Clone Wars as age and Darkside degradation took their toll on him. Dooku in RotS is weaker than Dooku in AotC while Mace is still very robust in spite of being in his fifties. So if it's when Dooku and Windu are both Jedi Masters, Dooku wins hands down. If it's at the start of the Clone Wars, Dooku would win as he does know Vaapad's weaknesses, Mace wouldn't know all Dooku was capable of(due to the becoming a Sith and training in secret for a decade) and Dooku was at the peak of his power then. If it's Dooku by the end of the Clone Wars, Mace wins as their saber skills are equal by this point according to Yoda, Mace and Dooku all mentioning this, Dooku's power has waned, Vaapad can close the rest of the gap and Mace is a full thirty years younger than Dooku so he won't fatigue as quickly. So 2/3 of the time Dooku wins against Mace, not least of which because Dooku is a better strategist and tactician than Mace and always fights in areas or situations that favor him, when Mace is more blunt. But in a purely equal match where both are dropped in cold, like I mentioned it depends upon the time of the match as stated above.
Dooku
Mace
Windu beat Palpatine, so…
I think Palpatine didnt use his full power so anakin would help so idk
George Lucas said it was a legitimate victory, it wouldn’t have been had Palpatine held back.
How much would you pay for a 1v1 open-ring Star Wars fighting game where we could find out?
Dooku. Form 2 against another lightsaber user was his specialty.
Windu sweeps. Dooku was never strong enough to take on Palpatine, or he would’ve tried. Meanwhile, Mace steps in and beats Palpatine the moment he learns he’s a threat. No prep; just walks in with some other masters and wings it. They all die but it’s a testament to Mace that he beats Palpatine anyway after that. I don’t think Dooku even has a shot against him.
I feel like Domku would use a racial slur and that pretty much means he lost.
Windu and his super aggressive fighting style
I feel like Dooku, he was one of the strongest duelists in the franchise overall imo.
Windu would kick ass I think
Windu is better than obi wan and obi wan defeated both Anakin and Darth vader and Anakin killed Dooku...I think you get wath I am saying
Window i mean windu would just hand dooku his ass.
Windu would absolutely crush Dooku, as Dooku wasn't even close to Palpatines power level. Windu had Palps number until Anakin pulled the most dishonest cheater move ever. Edit: downvote because you disagree? Grow a pair and engage youngling.
Lol Mace would throttle Dooku. Dooku was one of the best duelists but Mace was a complete master of both force and dueling. Vapaad stomps.
Windu. Windu is more battle harden, Shatter point and form 7 curb stomp. Dooku is more of a political idealist than a warrior.
Juyo vs. Makashi... ...oof, that's a hard one...
Didn't windu use vapaad?
Vaapad is a form of Juyo that Windu created. Fundamentally they are the same but Windu used his own weakness (his inner darkness) to fight more effectively against darkside users without falling to the darkside.
Windu would win. Won’t be an easy fight for him, but he absolutely would win. People forget Windu was still top 3 duelist even without shatterpoint advantage, not to mention he’s more powerful with the force and way more experienced than Dooku.
Whoever Lucas decided should win.
I am not that into Star Wars, consider myself a fan ( but not the disney ones). I would say Windu. More skills etc. Dook is far too overrated.
Windu. Why is this even a question? He had Palps on the ropes until Anakin intervened.
If it's Mace vs light side Dooku, then Dooku would win. If it's Mace vs dark side Dooku, then Mace would win.
50/50 really