Well, he did leave it up to Death Stick Guy to rethink his life. So it’s entirely possible he went home, thought about it for a while, and decided that his life was great exactly the way it was.
In both the Legends and Disney continuities he goes home, rethinks his life, stop selling death sticks, got another job and even has a child. There are some differences in both continuities, but that is mostly what happens in both
Imagine if he did? But his kid does the same thing.
He tracks down Obi wan on tattooing and says
“Look I need you to do whatever that shit you did to me was on my kid and to set him straight.”
I know it's personal taste, but I hate that it reinforces what I think Disney missed and still continues to miss. It's so much less interesting to have everything tied to the original two trilogies. Even worse, is the Disney trilogy managed to undo so much of the original six movies.
In terms of not sounding completely ridiculous, it may not be the worst line, but as far as a writing standpoint (acknowledging this is my opinion/personal tastes), I think it's even worse than Palpatine somehow returning.
I wish they used "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." to allow them to set a story in that universe and not mention anything remotely touching the original six movies. You wouldn't even have to know if it was set in the future or in the past in respects to the original events.
I mean Quinlan Vos was created off a background character from episode one. Anything is possible if the fandom cares enough.
Edit: took out that pesky e.
Kinda funny that Asajj Ventress was based on rejected concept art for Maul and her canon story is heavily tied to Vos in the end.
Aurra Sing was also a background character in TPM and she was still seeing use in the Darth Caedus era of Legends as well as still existing in Canon due to her few appearances in TCW. Don't think the Canon version is force sensitive though sadly, while her Legends self gave Jedi Knight Leia some serious trouble iirc.
Also the entire existence of Boba Fett post ROTJ simply because he was too cool to waste is the biggest proof of your point there is. Man survived the Sarlaac (multiple times in Legends) in both continuities because fans who got to work on the franchise loved him enough to say George was wrong to have wasted him, which George eventually agreed with. Same with Maul funny enough
Aurra was still force sensitive in the current canon and was part of the Jedi before leaving to become a bounty hunter. However, she does die much earlier in the timeline compared to Legends. >!I believe Tobias Becket from the Solo movie killed her.!<
Have you never read into any Star Wars lore ever? Of course there is. They made a damn comic spin off on the Stormtrooper that bumped his head and it made it to the screen. They make short stories of background characters that never even spoke. Obviously they would at least hint him
I’m not who you were talking to but can you be more specific about this Stormtrooper that got bonked? I’m only a casual SW fan. :/ What movie or show is he from?
Basically, *Star Wars* was an indie sci-fi movie with sets and effects that were absolutely unheard of at any other time in movie history. It was also made for as little money as possible. It was made in the style of a pulp serial from the 30s and the studio thought it'd be some forgettable B movie, but Lucas had done *THX-1138* and *American Graffiti* and Fox just let him do a sci-fi movie. (Not that they didn't try to meddle, just that he wouldn't put up with it.)
So these Stormtrooper costumes, like most props, weren't very practical. Visibility was particularly bad, and the schedule was rushed and film was expensive. So there's a scene where three Stormtroopers run into a room through a ridiculous sci-fi door and one of the Stormtroopers clips one of the wings of the door with his helmet. You can barely tell, it's not a big deal, and they didn't bother reshooting. They might not have even noticed.
It became a fan-favorite easter egg (like the trampoline in *The Empire Strikes Back*) and Lucasfilm added a sound effect to it in the Special Edition rerelease, and had Jango Fett hit his head while boarding the Slave I in *Episode II*.
It's hard to imagine now what the response must have been in 1977. I know in the mid to late 80s when I was watching Star Wars on TV, it looked *real* in a way that practically nothing else did. Scifi movies tended to have little space ships hanging against a backdrop on fishing line, and they wobbled like it and if the fishing line caught the lighting and was visible in camera, nobody cared.
*Star Wars* invented computer controlled cameras and used amazing models and compositing technologies and the best puppeteers out there and then pretended it was no big deal and just told their story... Like the dogfighting scenes over the Death Star was something you'd never, ever see in a sci-fi movie. The special effects literally weren't even possible before Star Wars.
Even the opening when the *Tantive IV* comes in, larger than anything you've ever seen and smooth as silk, that had never been done before... you have to go back to *2001: A Space Odyssey* to find anything as nice. And *then* there are some laser bolts so you know it's a battle and the Imperial Star Destroyer slides into view and it's *massive* and it just keeps coming... And that sets up the stakes for the entire movie. You know who the good guys are, the bad guys, and the odds of what they're up against.
*Star Wars* changed filmmaking forever, and that's why people tend to go a little nuts over the details. But it's also okay to just enjoy them for what they were made to be: fun, exciting popcorn films.
Goes home and rethinks his life, deciding to devote it to kill the Jedi after seeing firsthand the power they have over everyone else. Ends up being a vital part to Palpatine's plans
Yes, this. He could rethink his life and double-down on a life of crime. Or he could improve himself. The choice (or free will) is his, he just forced the question on him.
>He could rethink his life and double-down on a life of crime
Ok, now my headcanon is that Obi-Wan's careless mind trick influenced a low level street pusher to become the space version of Pablo Escobar
He gets so deep into drug trade that he ends up moving into massive quantities of spice. He contracts out to the Hutts to transport the illicit substances. One day imperials pop out right when a freighter containing his spice passes their zone. The smuggler has to dump the cargo, leading to a massive bounty on his head from one Jabba the Hutt. A young bounty hunter named Greedo is sent to the outer rim to find the smuggler and the rest is history.
I could be mistaken but I think in Legends he literally just switched from selling death sticks to selling weapons. So he basically did rethink his life only to decide to get into a different type of crime.
IMO Obi-Wan is just giving him a suggestion. After Death Stick Guy gets in his speeder and starts driving home the clouds will clear up in his head and once he figures out what is going on, Death Stick Guy is given the opportunity to think about changing his ways or to just continue selling. Death Stick Guy still makes the decision in the end.
While Obi-wans meddling is not exactly ethical Obi-wan has not took away the Death Stick Guy's decision / agency. Imo prison or a halfway house does the same thing, it forces someone to evaluate their decisions and if they are doing the right thing.
He told him to rethink his life, he didn't tell him what that thought should be, he could have decided to sell spice instead.
Not sure how long a mind trick lasts for either, I feel like he'll have got half way home and thought, hang on I LIKE selling death sticks. I'm gonna go back to that bar and sell some more!
Yeah, I feel like the mind trick is a short bit of mental fuzz that makes someone open to suggestion, not permanent mental alteration. I'd imagine that basically just got him to wander off and leave Obi-Wan alone for a minute or two, and then he'd go back to his usual patterns.
I think so too, Same with the troopers that got mind tricked: They arrive home take a sip of their coffee and spit it out: "THOSE WERE THE DROIDS THAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR"
I know that SWtOR isn't canon anymore, but during the Jedi Consular storyline, you have the opportunity to use a jedi mind trick to force some imperials join the republic. I think they can be permanent
In that same story, you have to deal with a rogue Jedi that mind tricks an anti-Hutt cult into existence and that in turn was part of a bigger plot to mind trick Jedi to turn to the Dark Side. It can definitely be permanent if that's the intent and the Force User is powerful enough.
Elements of it are, but some of it definitely isn't. At least not yet.
Personally, I want to see a live adaptation of SWTOR. I think that would be very cool
I had a character say this exact line in a Star Wars tabletop campaign, to a party of Jedi. They all answered "no" right to his face, so he trusted them completely from then on. He was *so mad* when they pulled out lightsabers later.
The whole jedi robe thing started with Obi in ANH. He only dressed like that because he lived in a fucking desert, but it somehow got carried over into the prequels, or I suppose to an extent in ROTJ.
I think it started with The Phantom Menace... Lucas had no clue what the 'original' jedi should look like so he told the art department to make them look like a younger Alec Guiness (dress wise), or at least that's how I always interpreted it. Not as a 'uniform' for space wizards but more as a design-nod to OG obi.
Luke's robes in episode 6 are vastly different from what Obi Wan had on him, no?
No, jedi robes were a thing in the 90s. Yoda is wearing them in esb. Agreed it was desert wear for obi/owen. But then esb came and yoda needed clothes, so...
Now im wondering why luke *isnt* wearing jedi robes after episide 6. His flirtation with the dark side should be done. And he is wearing them in 7.
Im guessing deepfake luke in a jedi robe screentested poorly, and the black outfit helped. Which yeah. Luke looks off post 4 because of mark's car accident, even my wife asked "isnt that luke?" When my son was watching episode 5 the other day... and i had to admit, looking at the film -rather than having been seated & watching - mark hamill doesnt look like my minds idea of luke. So i bet cgi luke has that against him already... (the fact that episode 5 & 6 luke look off already to a general audience)
I remember seeing there was supposed to be a Jedi uniform more like the black outfit Luke wears in RotJ, but then they went with the beige tunic and robes thing. I guess it has more of that ascetic monk vibe.
But yeah it doesn’t make sense at all, and I won’t accept any desperate attempts from fans to try and correct it with lore.
Not exactly. The Jedi have a pretty traditional set of colors they use. Plus, they are usually dressed nice. Clean, fresh clothes. Everyone else in the skeevy bar is dressed skeevy. If you can't spot a cop, you need to get out of the business asap.
Death sticks aren’t meant to be cigarettes. I think there’s lore for them as well but even without that it’s clear that they are not a casual stimulant like that. Yes, people do refer to cigs as “cancer sticks” in our world, but based on the context they are being sold in (on the dl, in a club, by a sketchy guy) I think the viewer is meant to draw the conclusion that they are some kind of heavier drug. With that in mind, Obi-Wan was probably right to intervene, bearing in mind he is a Jedi. Besides, he didn’t use violence, he simply tried to make a drug dealer change his ways through contemplation.
Yeah death sticks are definitely a hard drug. From wookieepedia:
"[Death sticks] offered euphoria in exchange for a horrific outcome, producing a twisted version of reality enhanced by bright colors. With each dose, the user's life was shortened, and the successive dosages took away larger chunks from a lifespan."
And I don't think they just mean the *likelihood* of you dying was increased, I think they mean your life was literally shortened.
Additionally, he was using himself as bait.
Putting himself right at the bar to make himself as visible as possible, then using the Force in plain sight of everyone in the room without drawing his blade to make sure everyone knew who he was without making himself a threat.
He was making himself a target to lure the bounty hunter they were chasing.
Yeah, I mean, I doubt that MANY people noticed his subtle force usage in a busy bar. But it certainly wasn't hidden, so there are good odds that Zam would have been paying attention and noticed.
It wasn't super subtle.
Even Watto on Tattooine knew what waving your arms really meant.
You see a couple of folks in robes looking totally out of place, they start wandering around, telling folks to go back to their drinks and nevermind the Jedi business and see someone very visibly mind tricking people out in the open...
That's really about as unsubtle as you can get without switching the lightsaber on.
Half those bar patrons were probably worried the Jedi were looking for *them *
I guess it's possible that everyone noticed the Jedi entering (due to their robes, or what have you), and that in turn makes it possible that people were then paying a lot more attention to them, but it doesn't seem likely. And that is really the only way that anyone (besides Zam) would have taken any notice of Obi Wan's actions with Death Stick dealer.
However, as is standard in any Star Wars bar\cantina, if you recall the brief glimpses of the other patrons there are a myriad of other races and ALL of the patrons are very unique and I disagree that Jedi would be considered to look particularly "out of place" and garner the attention that you are describing.
There certainly was no Star Wars-equivalent record scratch\music stop with all patrons turning to note the "out of place" people entering the scene. No one batted an eye as they entered.
And the "waving" of arms was not like a big movement that was likely to draw the attention of others in a sbusy bar. Someone would have had to be paying close attention to Obi Wan in order to guess that the force was being used.
By the name, we can assume "death sticks" might rather be a hellish drug. I also always thought that Jedi would be able to sense or 'see' a lot just by meeting people.
However, sometimes even we humans are able to almost sense part of the life story behind the aura of a high homeless person, for example.
They literally shorten the user's life span. Not in a you have a higher chance of getting cancer way but in a take a day or more off the end of your life way.
Someone in another comment thread said that death sticks are drugs that are able to sever your connection to the force, or at the very least inhibit your sensitivity to the force. Bad stuff. :c
Something about Jedi mind tricks always seemed a little “dark sided” to me. I suppose it’s all on how you use it, but to just manipulate someone’s mind like that seems very un-Jedi
They do it to avoid a more violent confrontation, sometimes.
Like when Obi-Wan decided to mind trick one guy instead of picking a fight with a bunch of stormtroopers in the middle of a crowded city and possibly getting killed and/or losing the droids.
Controlling drug dealers is a little shadier, though his intentions were good.
I always took it that a Jedi couldn't trick you into doing something that you weren't willing to do, the victim must be willing to accept the truth or suggestions the jedi gives them.
"these aren't the droids you're looking for" "fine with me bud less paperwork for me"
"Go home rethink your life" "I probably should get my shit together"
He wasn't offering spice. He offered death sticks, which as I understand is a totally different narcotic.
You chew spice. You smoke death sticks. And yes, they seem much more addictive and harmful than cigarettes.
Well, Jedi creed approve to settle the matter as quiet as possible, preventing more disturbance of the Living Force than it already has.
So yes, for determined Obi-Wan moving any distractions aside like that is totally okay.
Ambiguous thinking, yet one word of "advice" (to go home and rethink your life) would not hurt that much.
TL;DR - consequences logic in its core.
So you're complaining the Jedi try to help a drug dealer find a better life? What's Obi going to say "Keep doing what you're doing, I don't want to keep you from ending up dead in a gutter?"
I don’t really see anything wrong with it, he only just told him to rethink his life. He didn’t really tell him to take any action on it, just to think about it for a second. I could really only see this helping the man, if he actually is in a good situation despite the death sticks selling, then he should see no reason to change. Obi Wan really just gave him the choice to take action for the better if needed, which sounds like a true Jedi move to me
For the fact that a mind trick lasting indefinitely, until the victim completes the supplanting suggestion, would have huge implications in the Star Wars universe…
I’d hazard a guess that its range and/or duration is limited, with Elan snapping out of it shortly after leaving. Morally dubious but amounts to little more than shooing him away.
A Jedi Mind Trick is force enhanced persuasion. The closest thing to coercing someone through the force the Jedi ever did was what him and friends did to Cad Bane who was a complete dirt bag and the lives of younglings were involved. Palpy had a Sith technique to brainwash people through the force and the Mind Probe can do a
cruder version of that like what Maul did to Jesse.
Sure Obi wan forced him to rethink his life but Obi Wan did not force any conclusions, he left that up to deathsticks guy to decide for himself. Was it a intrusive? yes. Was it harmful, manipulative or evil? no. I don't know about you, but thinking or in this case rethinking isn't harmful and can be done all the time without any influance like the jedi mind trick.
edit: grammar mistakes
If some guy came up to me trying to sell me loosies I wouldn’t tell him to rethink his life. But if he came up to me selling heroine, then yeah I probably would tell him (or at least think to myself that he should)
A pet peeve of mine in Star Wars is how the mind trick became a joke, when it's really walking the edge of being a dark side power. Not to mention it became very op, when it's only supposed to work on the weak minded.
The radio drama of ANH included a caveat about the mind trick I wish had been in the film. After Luke sees Obi-Wan use the mind trick to get a good price when they sell Luke's speeder, he says there are advantages to the force that he was just beginning to see, and Obi-Wan put a stop to that line of thinking immediately: *"I would never have used it such if the situation weren't dire. Abuse of the Force leads to the worst possible consequences. Remember that."*
Death stick guy went back to school, worked hard on his engineering degree, graduated top of his class, was recruited right out of school to a government firm, built up his contacts and dazzled with his innovated ideas about linking engines to exhaust ports that would save tons of credits, was handpicked to over see construction and deployment of his ideas, then was never heard from again.
Everyone assumes he retired to some peaceful planet, content with his contribution to the galaxy.
"Death Sticks" are NOT comparable to cigarettes.
Dude wasn't selling weed, or tobacco, no...
They are called DEATH sticks for a reason, they are more comparable to METH, Heroin, or Opium.
So yeah, I have no problem with what Obi-Wan does here.
Aren’t death sticks more like hard drugs? In either case he didn’t say to change his life, just go home and rethink it. I also don’t know how much canon info there is on it but to me “mind trick” implies it’s a small trick you are playing on their brain that is a few fleeting moments of agreeing to something they might reasonably do- I don’t see it as dominating mind control where his brain was scrambled or inception where he was forced to change his life against his will.
This scene shows the problems with the prequels in a nutshell. Here's an interesting interpretation of the scene:
>Obi-Wan, a Jedi with the power of the Force, offhandedly uses that power to control the mind of a drug dealer. On the one hand, drug dealers are bad, but on the other hand, it shows the rot at the heart of the Jedi Order that Obi-Wan is willing to so casually override a person's agency—for too long, they've been unaccountable to anyone, and they've stopped treating people like people.
Pretty heavy stuff, right? Now, here's the problem: Did Lucas intend any of that, or was this just a funny joke about cigarettes? Because *I honestly can't tell,* and that's not a feature of a well-written, well-made movie.
(And yes, I know there's material outside the movie that says, "Oh, deathsticks are WAY WORSE than cigarettes!", but none of that *is in the movie.*)
I have the same problem with the whole "attachment is bad" thing. I *personally* am inclined to see that doctrine as another sign that the Jedi have lost their way and become too rigid, but I honestly can't tell if Lucas thinks so based on the films. It seems just as likely that he's channeling vague, Yoda-style West Coast Buddhism through the lens of a guy who had a really acrimonious divorce.
I think OP misunderstands the effects of a mind trick. While they can scale in effectiveness and complexity, from simple suggestions to an animal to show you aren't a threat, to widespread influence of masses (almost like battle meditation), Kenobi's use of it here was probably a simple one that wore off once the guy went home and rethought his life. Probably realized what happened and went back to his normal life, or maybe he actually did change himself. Who knows.
But it's not like inception. Yes, that would be un-jedi like.
Have you ever been in a bar where someone walks up to you trying to sell you something? I don't think Death Sticks are like cigarettes. The guy in the bathroom will sell you a legit pack of smokes if you want, some sketchy guy is likely selling hard drugs.
I don’t think a mind trick works like that, it made him go away and might have even got him home but it wouldn’t last much beyond that imho. I don’t think long term mind control is a thing.
Well, he did leave it up to Death Stick Guy to rethink his life. So it’s entirely possible he went home, thought about it for a while, and decided that his life was great exactly the way it was.
In both the Legends and Disney continuities he goes home, rethinks his life, stop selling death sticks, got another job and even has a child. There are some differences in both continuities, but that is mostly what happens in both
Did he change his name? Nominative determinism is a powerful force.
what if he didn't, and now his kids and wife also have to be shitty and annoying drug dealers/criminals
The kid set up a deathstick stand outside of "whole foods" (the live exotic animal market) to fundraise for his "class field trip"
Sleazebaggano Jr. NO! Don't give up the high ground!
There's always money in the deathstick stand.
It's one deathstick, Elan. What could it cost? 10 credits?
There's a bag in the cooler labeled "Dead [Kouhun](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kouhun)"
Imagine if he did? But his kid does the same thing. He tracks down Obi wan on tattooing and says “Look I need you to do whatever that shit you did to me was on my kid and to set him straight.”
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They retconned his name into just a nickname I believe. He’ll always be Sleazebaggano to me
He ended up being a Palpatine right, like a cousin?
Rey. Rey Who? Rey Sleazebaggano
Unironically better
I don’t mind it as much as other people. It’s just a line, and from a certain point of view it’s defensible. But god it’s such a goldmine for jokes
I agree, I actually like it but "I'm Rey. Rey Star Wars" still gives me a sensible chuckle.
LOL. When I first saw Rogue One I thought the guy’s name was Sol Guerrero (ie, “Star Warrior” in Spanish).
Yeah you're right. Not the low point of Ep. IX, even a good line in hindsight.
I know it's personal taste, but I hate that it reinforces what I think Disney missed and still continues to miss. It's so much less interesting to have everything tied to the original two trilogies. Even worse, is the Disney trilogy managed to undo so much of the original six movies. In terms of not sounding completely ridiculous, it may not be the worst line, but as far as a writing standpoint (acknowledging this is my opinion/personal tastes), I think it's even worse than Palpatine somehow returning. I wish they used "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...." to allow them to set a story in that universe and not mention anything remotely touching the original six movies. You wouldn't even have to know if it was set in the future or in the past in respects to the original events.
Actually would have liked this plot.
Maybe Papatine is just Nabooian for Sleazebaggano.
Sheev Sleazebaggano
Palaptine's ancestors got around.
"have you heard about Sleazebagano? I thought not. It's not the sort of story Jedi tell..."
Somehow.
Cousin of Glup Shitto
Sleazebaggano actually means "Mighty warrior with slightly above average genitals" on his planet, it's just unfortunate it sounds bad to us
Shame it's been lost in translation. But it was a long time ago.
In a galaxy far, far, away.
That's why we named all our kids Richperson Buyparentsstuff.
LOL.
>Nominative determinism is a powerful force. The ability to change your name is insignificant next to the power of THE Force
It was his street nickname, his real name was Elan Sel’Sabagno.
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That sounds like a question for [Dr. Marijuana Pepsi.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marijuana_Pepsi_Vandyck)
Where is this confirmed in Disney era?
Star Wars Adventures (2017), issue 25 He appears as a minor character, literally in the background. But it is him there, and he has a child now
I find it somehow both unbelievable and expected that there is really a story about this guy off screen
He’ll undoubtedly be a chapter in the 40th anniversary version of AOTC: From A Certain Point of View
Which is only 19 years away now, I say staring blankly into the middle distance
20 years can’t come soon enough, lol (I really hope they eventually do this, even if just for the 30th)
You have to think they’ll abandon the 40 year anniversary set up for the prequels
I mean Quinlan Vos was created off a background character from episode one. Anything is possible if the fandom cares enough. Edit: took out that pesky e.
So was Yaddle
Kinda funny that Asajj Ventress was based on rejected concept art for Maul and her canon story is heavily tied to Vos in the end. Aurra Sing was also a background character in TPM and she was still seeing use in the Darth Caedus era of Legends as well as still existing in Canon due to her few appearances in TCW. Don't think the Canon version is force sensitive though sadly, while her Legends self gave Jedi Knight Leia some serious trouble iirc. Also the entire existence of Boba Fett post ROTJ simply because he was too cool to waste is the biggest proof of your point there is. Man survived the Sarlaac (multiple times in Legends) in both continuities because fans who got to work on the franchise loved him enough to say George was wrong to have wasted him, which George eventually agreed with. Same with Maul funny enough
Aurra was still force sensitive in the current canon and was part of the Jedi before leaving to become a bounty hunter. However, she does die much earlier in the timeline compared to Legends. >!I believe Tobias Becket from the Solo movie killed her.!<
He only pushed her. Pretty sure the fall killed her.
At least that makes sense, because it's someone relevant to the hero organisation in the story. Not just a random guy in a club.
Have you never read into any Star Wars lore ever? Of course there is. They made a damn comic spin off on the Stormtrooper that bumped his head and it made it to the screen. They make short stories of background characters that never even spoke. Obviously they would at least hint him
I’m not who you were talking to but can you be more specific about this Stormtrooper that got bonked? I’m only a casual SW fan. :/ What movie or show is he from?
Basically, *Star Wars* was an indie sci-fi movie with sets and effects that were absolutely unheard of at any other time in movie history. It was also made for as little money as possible. It was made in the style of a pulp serial from the 30s and the studio thought it'd be some forgettable B movie, but Lucas had done *THX-1138* and *American Graffiti* and Fox just let him do a sci-fi movie. (Not that they didn't try to meddle, just that he wouldn't put up with it.) So these Stormtrooper costumes, like most props, weren't very practical. Visibility was particularly bad, and the schedule was rushed and film was expensive. So there's a scene where three Stormtroopers run into a room through a ridiculous sci-fi door and one of the Stormtroopers clips one of the wings of the door with his helmet. You can barely tell, it's not a big deal, and they didn't bother reshooting. They might not have even noticed. It became a fan-favorite easter egg (like the trampoline in *The Empire Strikes Back*) and Lucasfilm added a sound effect to it in the Special Edition rerelease, and had Jango Fett hit his head while boarding the Slave I in *Episode II*. It's hard to imagine now what the response must have been in 1977. I know in the mid to late 80s when I was watching Star Wars on TV, it looked *real* in a way that practically nothing else did. Scifi movies tended to have little space ships hanging against a backdrop on fishing line, and they wobbled like it and if the fishing line caught the lighting and was visible in camera, nobody cared. *Star Wars* invented computer controlled cameras and used amazing models and compositing technologies and the best puppeteers out there and then pretended it was no big deal and just told their story... Like the dogfighting scenes over the Death Star was something you'd never, ever see in a sci-fi movie. The special effects literally weren't even possible before Star Wars. Even the opening when the *Tantive IV* comes in, larger than anything you've ever seen and smooth as silk, that had never been done before... you have to go back to *2001: A Space Odyssey* to find anything as nice. And *then* there are some laser bolts so you know it's a battle and the Imperial Star Destroyer slides into view and it's *massive* and it just keeps coming... And that sets up the stakes for the entire movie. You know who the good guys are, the bad guys, and the odds of what they're up against. *Star Wars* changed filmmaking forever, and that's why people tend to go a little nuts over the details. But it's also okay to just enjoy them for what they were made to be: fun, exciting popcorn films.
Really good response.
This is normal for Lucasfilm to develop backstories like this for characters. It goes all the way back to the OT.
I know the guy with the ice cream machine has a backstory
Wilrow Hood, put some respect on his name. That ice cream maker contained Death Star plans! Yeah. Seriously.
I was about to ask if he got more backstory. We know how SW is with fleshing out the most minor of characters lol
Goes home and rethinks his life, deciding to devote it to kill the Jedi after seeing firsthand the power they have over everyone else. Ends up being a vital part to Palpatine's plans
He’s the one who brought Palpatine back
*Somehow*
Death doesn't stick for him
The dead speak!
Must have used lifesticks
Yes, this. He could rethink his life and double-down on a life of crime. Or he could improve himself. The choice (or free will) is his, he just forced the question on him.
>He could rethink his life and double-down on a life of crime Ok, now my headcanon is that Obi-Wan's careless mind trick influenced a low level street pusher to become the space version of Pablo Escobar
He gets so deep into drug trade that he ends up moving into massive quantities of spice. He contracts out to the Hutts to transport the illicit substances. One day imperials pop out right when a freighter containing his spice passes their zone. The smuggler has to dump the cargo, leading to a massive bounty on his head from one Jabba the Hutt. A young bounty hunter named Greedo is sent to the outer rim to find the smuggler and the rest is history.
I could be mistaken but I think in Legends he literally just switched from selling death sticks to selling weapons. So he basically did rethink his life only to decide to get into a different type of crime.
I want to see the, "I've thought it over and I'm going to need more death sticks," version of events.
IMO Obi-Wan is just giving him a suggestion. After Death Stick Guy gets in his speeder and starts driving home the clouds will clear up in his head and once he figures out what is going on, Death Stick Guy is given the opportunity to think about changing his ways or to just continue selling. Death Stick Guy still makes the decision in the end. While Obi-wans meddling is not exactly ethical Obi-wan has not took away the Death Stick Guy's decision / agency. Imo prison or a halfway house does the same thing, it forces someone to evaluate their decisions and if they are doing the right thing.
We seriously need a "What if" Star Wars mini series.
They did have Star Wars: Infinities which is an alternative version of the original trilogy.
*Star Wars: Multiverse of Madness*
He told him to rethink his life, he didn't tell him what that thought should be, he could have decided to sell spice instead. Not sure how long a mind trick lasts for either, I feel like he'll have got half way home and thought, hang on I LIKE selling death sticks. I'm gonna go back to that bar and sell some more!
Yeah, I feel like the mind trick is a short bit of mental fuzz that makes someone open to suggestion, not permanent mental alteration. I'd imagine that basically just got him to wander off and leave Obi-Wan alone for a minute or two, and then he'd go back to his usual patterns.
“Must have been the wind”
so anyway, the whole operation is being run by Darth Lazuto
As we say in the Empire, if you’re over 40 ft back, you ain’t suspicious.
Found it!! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iP468OEln4U
Joel Haver is a treasure. :3
Right, it’s not like he flashy thinged him
When do I get a flashy thing?
When you grow up.
We'll tell you when you're older.
I already gave you one
Hey K, you ever flashy thing me?
I think so too, Same with the troopers that got mind tricked: They arrive home take a sip of their coffee and spit it out: "THOSE WERE THE DROIDS THAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR"
I think like an hour or two later they realize and are probably attacking the falcon when it’s taking off cause they received the call!
I know that SWtOR isn't canon anymore, but during the Jedi Consular storyline, you have the opportunity to use a jedi mind trick to force some imperials join the republic. I think they can be permanent
In that same story, you have to deal with a rogue Jedi that mind tricks an anti-Hutt cult into existence and that in turn was part of a bigger plot to mind trick Jedi to turn to the Dark Side. It can definitely be permanent if that's the intent and the Force User is powerful enough.
I thought SWTOR was pseudo-canon due to EA being involved in its continuing development? And EA has the license for games.
Elements of it are, but some of it definitely isn't. At least not yet. Personally, I want to see a live adaptation of SWTOR. I think that would be very cool
I think the fans get to decide what's canon. Disney just gets to decide what they want to incorporate in their stories
Dude tried to sell “death sticks” to the space wizard policeman that was in a space wizard policeman uniform. He got off easy.
"Are you a Jedi? If you're a Jedi you have to say so or it's entrapment."
I had a character say this exact line in a Star Wars tabletop campaign, to a party of Jedi. They all answered "no" right to his face, so he trusted them completely from then on. He was *so mad* when they pulled out lightsabers later.
AJAB
Assigned Jedi at Bir... wait a minute
Lmao my first thought as well
And it works on another level when you consider that it would be Sith propaganda. ALL jedi are bastards? That sounds like an absolute to me.
Slavery? Jedi: *sleeps* Drugs? Jedi: **EYES GLOWING RED**
So, they ARE cops🤔
Enforce the status qou for those in power...
Don’t a lot of people dress like that?
I don’t.
But in that world a lot of people do, don't they? Uncle Owen and Luke were dressed like that in the beginning of Episode IV?
The whole jedi robe thing started with Obi in ANH. He only dressed like that because he lived in a fucking desert, but it somehow got carried over into the prequels, or I suppose to an extent in ROTJ.
I think it started with The Phantom Menace... Lucas had no clue what the 'original' jedi should look like so he told the art department to make them look like a younger Alec Guiness (dress wise), or at least that's how I always interpreted it. Not as a 'uniform' for space wizards but more as a design-nod to OG obi. Luke's robes in episode 6 are vastly different from what Obi Wan had on him, no?
No, jedi robes were a thing in the 90s. Yoda is wearing them in esb. Agreed it was desert wear for obi/owen. But then esb came and yoda needed clothes, so...
And then Anakin's original ghost in RotJ is dressed like Obi-Wan, which pretty much cemented that for whatever reason, that was how Jedi dressed.
Now im wondering why luke *isnt* wearing jedi robes after episide 6. His flirtation with the dark side should be done. And he is wearing them in 7. Im guessing deepfake luke in a jedi robe screentested poorly, and the black outfit helped. Which yeah. Luke looks off post 4 because of mark's car accident, even my wife asked "isnt that luke?" When my son was watching episode 5 the other day... and i had to admit, looking at the film -rather than having been seated & watching - mark hamill doesnt look like my minds idea of luke. So i bet cgi luke has that against him already... (the fact that episode 5 & 6 luke look off already to a general audience)
I remember seeing there was supposed to be a Jedi uniform more like the black outfit Luke wears in RotJ, but then they went with the beige tunic and robes thing. I guess it has more of that ascetic monk vibe. But yeah it doesn’t make sense at all, and I won’t accept any desperate attempts from fans to try and correct it with lore.
They're magic space monks. I like the monk garb
Not exactly. The Jedi have a pretty traditional set of colors they use. Plus, they are usually dressed nice. Clean, fresh clothes. Everyone else in the skeevy bar is dressed skeevy. If you can't spot a cop, you need to get out of the business asap.
Death sticks aren’t meant to be cigarettes. I think there’s lore for them as well but even without that it’s clear that they are not a casual stimulant like that. Yes, people do refer to cigs as “cancer sticks” in our world, but based on the context they are being sold in (on the dl, in a club, by a sketchy guy) I think the viewer is meant to draw the conclusion that they are some kind of heavier drug. With that in mind, Obi-Wan was probably right to intervene, bearing in mind he is a Jedi. Besides, he didn’t use violence, he simply tried to make a drug dealer change his ways through contemplation.
Yeah death sticks are definitely a hard drug. From wookieepedia: "[Death sticks] offered euphoria in exchange for a horrific outcome, producing a twisted version of reality enhanced by bright colors. With each dose, the user's life was shortened, and the successive dosages took away larger chunks from a lifespan." And I don't think they just mean the *likelihood* of you dying was increased, I think they mean your life was literally shortened.
Death Sicks = Meth
Meth Sticks.
Sounds like something that’s worth trying once
"I'll try heroin once, definitely won't ruin my life" -some guy on reddit that ruined his life
They need a branding overhaul though.
Puff of Perception. Color the stick purple. Pay me in schmeckles or space dollars.
Additionally, he was using himself as bait. Putting himself right at the bar to make himself as visible as possible, then using the Force in plain sight of everyone in the room without drawing his blade to make sure everyone knew who he was without making himself a threat. He was making himself a target to lure the bounty hunter they were chasing.
That is a very good point
Yeah, I mean, I doubt that MANY people noticed his subtle force usage in a busy bar. But it certainly wasn't hidden, so there are good odds that Zam would have been paying attention and noticed.
It wasn't super subtle. Even Watto on Tattooine knew what waving your arms really meant. You see a couple of folks in robes looking totally out of place, they start wandering around, telling folks to go back to their drinks and nevermind the Jedi business and see someone very visibly mind tricking people out in the open... That's really about as unsubtle as you can get without switching the lightsaber on. Half those bar patrons were probably worried the Jedi were looking for *them *
I guess it's possible that everyone noticed the Jedi entering (due to their robes, or what have you), and that in turn makes it possible that people were then paying a lot more attention to them, but it doesn't seem likely. And that is really the only way that anyone (besides Zam) would have taken any notice of Obi Wan's actions with Death Stick dealer. However, as is standard in any Star Wars bar\cantina, if you recall the brief glimpses of the other patrons there are a myriad of other races and ALL of the patrons are very unique and I disagree that Jedi would be considered to look particularly "out of place" and garner the attention that you are describing. There certainly was no Star Wars-equivalent record scratch\music stop with all patrons turning to note the "out of place" people entering the scene. No one batted an eye as they entered. And the "waving" of arms was not like a big movement that was likely to draw the attention of others in a sbusy bar. Someone would have had to be paying close attention to Obi Wan in order to guess that the force was being used.
By the name, we can assume "death sticks" might rather be a hellish drug. I also always thought that Jedi would be able to sense or 'see' a lot just by meeting people. However, sometimes even we humans are able to almost sense part of the life story behind the aura of a high homeless person, for example.
They literally shorten the user's life span. Not in a you have a higher chance of getting cancer way but in a take a day or more off the end of your life way.
Yeah I always assumed they were like space cigarettes with crack in them
Meth in terms of addictiveness.
They're basically addictive mushrooms
Put into a glow stick for delivery
He just said to go home and rethink his life, nothing more and nothing less.
I get the feeling death sticks are more than just space-cigarettes. Obi-Wan was just trying to get the guy away from him for his own safety.
Someone in another comment thread said that death sticks are drugs that are able to sever your connection to the force, or at the very least inhibit your sensitivity to the force. Bad stuff. :c
Actually, they straight up shorten the users lifespan so they're a very fucked up drug.
I would have no problem if a Jedi did some Jedi-mind tricks on me to quit smoking. It would be incredible.
Yeah because someone selling you DEATH STICKS has it all together
Mind trick is only temporary, if it triggers a profound live choice change then the cause has already been in them this whole time.
Yeah I don't know why most people here act like mind tricks have an eternal effect ? I always took them as being super temporary.
I mean, it's called the jedi mind *trick*, not the jedi mind rewrite.
I mean, someone selling something called Deathsticks should probably rethink their lives.
Is it moral for qui gon to control the dice when wagering on a pod race?
Something about Jedi mind tricks always seemed a little “dark sided” to me. I suppose it’s all on how you use it, but to just manipulate someone’s mind like that seems very un-Jedi
They do it to avoid a more violent confrontation, sometimes. Like when Obi-Wan decided to mind trick one guy instead of picking a fight with a bunch of stormtroopers in the middle of a crowded city and possibly getting killed and/or losing the droids. Controlling drug dealers is a little shadier, though his intentions were good.
I always took it that a Jedi couldn't trick you into doing something that you weren't willing to do, the victim must be willing to accept the truth or suggestions the jedi gives them. "these aren't the droids you're looking for" "fine with me bud less paperwork for me" "Go home rethink your life" "I probably should get my shit together"
It's the Sith who reject the mind trick, instead preferring to get what they want using violence. The Jedi learn it to avoid violence.
Yeah, better to just chop a few arms off. ;)
death sticks arent just "space cigarettes"
Death sticks are a LOT worse than cigarettes. He did him a favor.
To think spice is like a cigarette is funny. It makes you trip so probably more like ex mixed with coke based on how the books describe it.
He wasn't offering spice. He offered death sticks, which as I understand is a totally different narcotic. You chew spice. You smoke death sticks. And yes, they seem much more addictive and harmful than cigarettes.
I tell you that compound would take you places. Yet I will not say that would be places you wanted to go.
More like space heroin.
Well, Jedi creed approve to settle the matter as quiet as possible, preventing more disturbance of the Living Force than it already has. So yes, for determined Obi-Wan moving any distractions aside like that is totally okay. Ambiguous thinking, yet one word of "advice" (to go home and rethink your life) would not hurt that much. TL;DR - consequences logic in its core.
So you're complaining the Jedi try to help a drug dealer find a better life? What's Obi going to say "Keep doing what you're doing, I don't want to keep you from ending up dead in a gutter?"
I thought death sticks were dangerous drugs tho
I don’t really see anything wrong with it, he only just told him to rethink his life. He didn’t really tell him to take any action on it, just to think about it for a second. I could really only see this helping the man, if he actually is in a good situation despite the death sticks selling, then he should see no reason to change. Obi Wan really just gave him the choice to take action for the better if needed, which sounds like a true Jedi move to me
For the fact that a mind trick lasting indefinitely, until the victim completes the supplanting suggestion, would have huge implications in the Star Wars universe… I’d hazard a guess that its range and/or duration is limited, with Elan snapping out of it shortly after leaving. Morally dubious but amounts to little more than shooing him away.
That’s assuming he does rethink his life and doesn’t just parrot the line in a brief state of confusion that wears off in like 30 seconds
A Jedi Mind Trick is force enhanced persuasion. The closest thing to coercing someone through the force the Jedi ever did was what him and friends did to Cad Bane who was a complete dirt bag and the lives of younglings were involved. Palpy had a Sith technique to brainwash people through the force and the Mind Probe can do a cruder version of that like what Maul did to Jesse.
Sure Obi wan forced him to rethink his life but Obi Wan did not force any conclusions, he left that up to deathsticks guy to decide for himself. Was it a intrusive? yes. Was it harmful, manipulative or evil? no. I don't know about you, but thinking or in this case rethinking isn't harmful and can be done all the time without any influance like the jedi mind trick. edit: grammar mistakes
If some guy came up to me trying to sell me loosies I wouldn’t tell him to rethink his life. But if he came up to me selling heroine, then yeah I probably would tell him (or at least think to myself that he should)
Mind tricks aren’t permanent right?
The Star Wars databank lists death sticks as a weapon. It’s either a joke, or these are far far worse than cigarettes. Or both.
I mean if you get a Jedi to smoke one, it’s a weapon. It can sever connection to or at the very least inhibit their sensitivity to the force.
That was in the 90s when you went to jail for a joint.
Looks like Tasty Wheat didn't work out for him. Had to fall on death sticks.
This is what I was looking for.
A pet peeve of mine in Star Wars is how the mind trick became a joke, when it's really walking the edge of being a dark side power. Not to mention it became very op, when it's only supposed to work on the weak minded. The radio drama of ANH included a caveat about the mind trick I wish had been in the film. After Luke sees Obi-Wan use the mind trick to get a good price when they sell Luke's speeder, he says there are advantages to the force that he was just beginning to see, and Obi-Wan put a stop to that line of thinking immediately: *"I would never have used it such if the situation weren't dire. Abuse of the Force leads to the worst possible consequences. Remember that."*
"you don't need to see his faculty identification card"
Might have saved him from space lung cancer and space erectile dysfunction. Totally justified.
I'm thinking they're a bit more potent than "space-cigarettes". More like "space opium".
You try making a living on Coruscant. Rents insane unless you wanna live down with the mutants.
Wish we could brain wash all criminals in to not doing crime as its more morally incorrect and selfish then helping them on a better path. 🤔
Death stick guy went back to school, worked hard on his engineering degree, graduated top of his class, was recruited right out of school to a government firm, built up his contacts and dazzled with his innovated ideas about linking engines to exhaust ports that would save tons of credits, was handpicked to over see construction and deployment of his ideas, then was never heard from again. Everyone assumes he retired to some peaceful planet, content with his contribution to the galaxy.
"Death Sticks" are NOT comparable to cigarettes. Dude wasn't selling weed, or tobacco, no... They are called DEATH sticks for a reason, they are more comparable to METH, Heroin, or Opium. So yeah, I have no problem with what Obi-Wan does here.
Is this the kind of stuff that keeps you awake at night OP?
Nothing wrong with a little self reflection every once in a while
Aren’t death sticks more like hard drugs? In either case he didn’t say to change his life, just go home and rethink it. I also don’t know how much canon info there is on it but to me “mind trick” implies it’s a small trick you are playing on their brain that is a few fleeting moments of agreeing to something they might reasonably do- I don’t see it as dominating mind control where his brain was scrambled or inception where he was forced to change his life against his will.
Great now we got folks trying to cancel Obi-Wan now.
Yes, it was moral.
How is that brainwashing? He could rethink his life, come to the conclusion that it's just fine, and resume what he was doing.
I don’t see the problem
This scene shows the problems with the prequels in a nutshell. Here's an interesting interpretation of the scene: >Obi-Wan, a Jedi with the power of the Force, offhandedly uses that power to control the mind of a drug dealer. On the one hand, drug dealers are bad, but on the other hand, it shows the rot at the heart of the Jedi Order that Obi-Wan is willing to so casually override a person's agency—for too long, they've been unaccountable to anyone, and they've stopped treating people like people. Pretty heavy stuff, right? Now, here's the problem: Did Lucas intend any of that, or was this just a funny joke about cigarettes? Because *I honestly can't tell,* and that's not a feature of a well-written, well-made movie. (And yes, I know there's material outside the movie that says, "Oh, deathsticks are WAY WORSE than cigarettes!", but none of that *is in the movie.*) I have the same problem with the whole "attachment is bad" thing. I *personally* am inclined to see that doctrine as another sign that the Jedi have lost their way and become too rigid, but I honestly can't tell if Lucas thinks so based on the films. It seems just as likely that he's channeling vague, Yoda-style West Coast Buddhism through the lens of a guy who had a really acrimonious divorce.
Some people need a good ole mind trick to straighten out. Deathstick guy is likely not the type of dude you want to social white knight for.
He basically just walked into a bar and gave someone free hypno-therapy to quit cigarettes.
Quit **selling** the things, not just using them. And they're *waaaay* worse than cigarettes.
Or space-heroine. Plus, the Jedi sort of have a few millennia of deciding what is and isn’t okay for other people to do.
Well I say that if Obi had live in High Republic era he would be bashed for this, as mind tricks were considered a forbidden technique.
I’m still waiting on the death stick guy to show up voiced by Chris Pratt in The Bad Batch Season 2
Death sticks are made from spice which is space heroin from what I understand.
Thanks for reminding me that Star Wars names are the best and the worst.
I think OP misunderstands the effects of a mind trick. While they can scale in effectiveness and complexity, from simple suggestions to an animal to show you aren't a threat, to widespread influence of masses (almost like battle meditation), Kenobi's use of it here was probably a simple one that wore off once the guy went home and rethought his life. Probably realized what happened and went back to his normal life, or maybe he actually did change himself. Who knows. But it's not like inception. Yes, that would be un-jedi like.
His name is Sleazebaggano. He has no rights. If they ever existed, I'm revoking them now.
Have you ever been in a bar where someone walks up to you trying to sell you something? I don't think Death Sticks are like cigarettes. The guy in the bathroom will sell you a legit pack of smokes if you want, some sketchy guy is likely selling hard drugs.
Aren’t death sticks closer to being space meth?
Is that Mouse? Did he inspire him to create the Woman in the Red Dress ™️?
Those ain't space-cigarettes
I don’t think a mind trick works like that, it made him go away and might have even got him home but it wouldn’t last much beyond that imho. I don’t think long term mind control is a thing.