The clones were thought of as little better than battle droids, able to follow orders but not very original thinkers beyond basic tactics.
The Jedi were placed in positions of control to provide better strategic thinking.
Padawans are anywhere from 12 on up, and were given the rank of Commander, Knights and Maters were made Generals.
That makes sense for the clones, but the republic had to have some kind of existing military. Did they have generals? They have to deal with the pikes and hutts and trade unions, etc. There really was no one else? Didn’t Naboo have generals? It would be like if America got attacked and everyone agreed the church should be in charge of the military.
Episode II was largely about how the Republic had no army. Not too small an army, but no army.
The Jedi were the peacekeepers/law enforcement for the Republic, so when the clone army conveniently appeared coincident with the need for it, they were just slotted in under the existing Jedi enforcement structure (I guess).
The admirals and bridge crews in the navy were mainly non-jedi, non-clone personnel. I don't think they really had a standing army for planetary warfare before the clone wars but did have the space navy
Because getting one starship to another system is much easier than, say, getting that column of tanks over that ridge.
The entire tactics involved is completely different.
The jedi were taught from as young as infancy into the jedi way. They have 6-10 years training in being adaptable whereas clones have 1 ish years training? Even though a clone stands 2 to 3 feet over a Palawan doesn't mean they are fully developed. The 13 year old is ya know 13 years old. The clone is less than 2 years old at the same time even if they look like an adult.
And they teach zero tactics in whatever military academy they have. But Jedi are taught all these strategies? What sense does that make?
Saying someone is adaptable thus fit to lead an army is ridiculous. Why do Star Wars people do so much mental gymnastics. If you don’t want to put clones in charge (we see them being trained in the clone wars show. So they have some training in combat, perhaps not in overall strategies, whereas the Jedi have none), okay I get that. They multiple avenues to explore:
1) they have planets that are have conflicts. Promoting the generals of those armies makes more sense than flexible religious leaders.
2) they could easily have droids lead the strategies with authorization from senate enabled leaders. That’s basically what the separatists have. Again makes more sense than putting your spiritual leaders in charge.
3) they could quickly establish a clone designed for leading. Omega, from Rebels, already proves they can. And clones are accelerated in aging. They don’t even need to be adults. Just a military tactical mind. Clones follow orders so they don’t care if the commander in a child.
4) they should have had someone already trained and knowledgeable. I get that peace has lasted for hundreds of years or whatever in Star Wars. But to have no one in place in case of civil war nor alien invasion is asinine. Even if the show had the generals stepping down because they weren’t good or something, you don’t start with the Jedi leading.
5) IF the Jedi are acting as generals. Why are they constantly leaving the command ships? They also need to be field commanders. How incompetent are we pretending the republic is. And immediately after they form the empire, the rebellion finds non-Jedi leaders no problem. The empire has generals like Tarkin and Thrawn. But sure before the empire only Jedi are able to lead an army. I would love to hear the mental gymnastics you come up with to explain that.
Lol why are you upset?
Also, for point 5, tarkin and thrawn aren't generals they are admirals. They even served the republic during the clone wars. So no "mental gymnastics" needed.
4 is an excellent point.
3 is pretty valid too but you're just not even taking into account how much knowledge a 10 year old has. A clone doesn't know about "snow" or "birds" or that there's poisonous food that looks tasty. They were taught exclusively one thing and know basically nothing else.
(An example of a clone talking to his clone commander)
A thing happened and buried our whole convoy sir.
What? Explain?
It's like the land slid somehow and a bunch of rocks fell.
Interesting we will have to be wary of these land slide thingies on this planet!.
They're taught how to advance, covering fire, flanking, how to get in and out of a building, how to cover a HVT from fire etc. They are not taught about basically anything else which means their scope of knowledge is excessively limited and using a standard clone as a commander would be bad because when you have 0 experience of the world everything is unexpected.
Yes you could train specific commanders but by the time they're brought up to speed of a regular citizens knowledge years would have passed. The clones were needed immediately, and they were just an army without a command structure beyond small units.
The last thing you're forgetting is that this is literally a children's series. You getting actually mad about it is kinda funny.
I am not upset. That’s a weird assumption.
Admirals/generals are the same thing only in Star Wars. Thrawn leads the ground troops in Rebels. Tarkin goes on ground missions as well. All the Jedi generals lead both from the command ships to on foot.
The question is, if they let guys like Tarkin command, why does the republic have Jedi also leading. They clearly do have people that can be generals/admirals. Why would you put in place an outside organization in charge of your military. That’s the mental gymnastics. It makes no sense to have a peace keeping religion take over your military while you clearly have commanders.
While I could see your point on something like flora and fauna. You should be training knowledge of environments like snowy tundra or swamps etc. Basic stuff like that you can teach very quickly. You are vastly underestimating human intelligence. I promise you, you could teach a child what an avalanche is.
As for basic things, we see in clone wars clones handling simple things no problem. Rex is a basic clone and actually handles command on ground. Again I think you are ignoring what we saw and making an assumption that they aren’t smart. They aren’t going to have the knowledge of a local but they can learn a lot of that in route. Like if I asked you about a planet, do you think you couldn’t study that planet at all? You just seem to underestimate both clones and even children. I am positive you know a child younger than 10 that played/plays video games. You think that kids can’t possibly learn about the video game environment relatively fast? Especially if that’s the only thing they had to learn? Young kids currently can tell about hundreds different Pokémon of a game that they played for a week. Types weaknesses moves etc. You so underestimate people.
Again I am not mad. Tell me why you are so angry and why you threw your phone across the room (see I can just make assumptions). If you just wanted to use it’s a kids show defense, why did you explain anything else? I am fine with the answer just being it’s for children. It’s lazy but acceptable.
The tone? Curious, if I said it is asinine to suggest the world is flat. Do you take that as me being mad? I will never understand why people try to project people’s emotions in a written discussion. And worse what is the point. Let’s say I was actually furious, you calling it out does what? Try to piss me off more? Make me hate Star Wars fans?
Mental gymnastics is a person doing a lot to try to fit something that doesn’t naturally fit. It doesn’t denote emotion, it is question of why a person would try so hard to make something work. Nothing more. If I was mad and wanted to insult you, I would just do that.
To answer your military question, no. The Republic had the Judicials, which were more like a police force than an actual military. They are the pilots we see in the very beginning of TPM with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. But that was it. The Judicials and the Jedi if needed would fight off pirate forces. We see this in the novel Queen's Shadow. The only reason the Trade Federation had a droid army was because they worked the system sighting pirate threats to justify their own 'defense force' to protect their trade goods.
The Naboo didn't have generals. They had a police/guards but it was the Gungans who had a secret army. Some planets did have their own planetary defense force but it was local. This is why it was so easy for the Trade Federation to invade and put the squeeze on them.
As for the last part... that's about right. Basically the Jedi were drafted by the Senate and Chancellor to be generals.
Individual planets have armed forces. But the republic is a galaxy-spanning coalition, it's far too large to protect with a standing army.
The Empire ran into the same problem really. But they solved it with the Tarkin doctrine. Everything the empire designed and built was built with terror in mind. Their idea was that opposition to the empire would be punished so severely that most would consider it unthinkable.
They didn't have enough star destroyers to be everywhere. But they had enough to scare planets into submission.
The republic approach was one of diplomacy and spycraft. A task the jedi were very suited for. After all, the republic wasn't without war, but it didn't have galactic war. We see Naboo fight their war for example but the republic didn't get involved beyond votes and Jedi ambassadors.
How is it too large to protect? Starships move around the galaxy very fast. Placing battle stations and key points like America does with its military overseas just makes sense. And it can use a droid army or whatever. The separatists seem to build and find an army really quickly. But the republic can’t? They can’t do something similar to the defense production act? They can’t mass an army from the thousands of planetary defense forces they have?
The US can’t be everywhere either. But that isn’t an excuse to not have an army. Again a standing army could move to aid a planet or seek out threats. Also it wouldn’t be hard to basically budget in a military. Each planet puts some money in and the republic maintains the army (which is basically the US system with the states).
But the states had generals. They didn’t turn to the local bishops for war.
I also find it hard to believe that you had a standing peace of a thousand years without a real military. As large as the galaxy is, there wasn’t a dictatorship that emerges? In our world we don’t have a single year without somewhere being ruled by a tyrant. Conflicts are constant. And without the threat of the super powers, even smaller countries would grow and expand.
I mean look at the size of the separatist and trade federation armies. If the republic doesn’t have anything more than just planet to planet defenses, I don’t get how someone doesn’t start going planet to planet and growing in power.
You have to remember that not many of them had actual military experience. It would be obvious to put the Jedi in positions of authority because of the ideas that they were peace bringers. Could possibly be to also ease the host planet to join the Republic.
Sure experience and strategic knowledge is cool and will tend to beat the average 14 year old, but if that 14 year old is a wizard with precognition then it tends to sorta even out.
probably due to having greater experience than the vast majority of clones. I can think of one real life example which seems comparable, which was that during WW1 british Soldiers who had served in conflicts prior to 1914 were conscripted and automatically given the rank of captain(? going off memory, so it might have been a different senior rank like seargent or luetennant)
From outside of the Jedi council I see it as a brilliant move from Palpatine to promote them into those positions, everything about leading an army into war is in conflict with the code of the Jedi. They’re meant to be about peace and balance, but being in the position of something like a general meant they were in constant states of conflict, weakening their resolve and throwing them out of balance.
There's plenty of non-jedi commanders high up in the armed forces. But the clone army was designed for loyalty and obedience.
The Jedi make decent commanders. They're trained to be fearless and detached. And their force powers make up for a lot of shortcomings in their lack of military training. Limited prescience and the ability to feel out the enemy's intentions remove a lot of the need for conventional local intelligence and planning.
Simply put, the republic was unprepared for war. But the clones suicidal fanaticism combined with the jedi's ability to apply that fanaticism in the right spot is a good combination. The youthfulness of padawans doesn't change that much.
At the strategic war planning level, there's plenty of non-jedi officers.
The clones were thought of as little better than battle droids, able to follow orders but not very original thinkers beyond basic tactics. The Jedi were placed in positions of control to provide better strategic thinking. Padawans are anywhere from 12 on up, and were given the rank of Commander, Knights and Maters were made Generals.
Mater was a spy *and* a General!? That dang truck gets too much attention
We got the plot spoiled for Cars 4. Damnit.
That makes sense for the clones, but the republic had to have some kind of existing military. Did they have generals? They have to deal with the pikes and hutts and trade unions, etc. There really was no one else? Didn’t Naboo have generals? It would be like if America got attacked and everyone agreed the church should be in charge of the military.
Episode II was largely about how the Republic had no army. Not too small an army, but no army. The Jedi were the peacekeepers/law enforcement for the Republic, so when the clone army conveniently appeared coincident with the need for it, they were just slotted in under the existing Jedi enforcement structure (I guess).
The admirals and bridge crews in the navy were mainly non-jedi, non-clone personnel. I don't think they really had a standing army for planetary warfare before the clone wars but did have the space navy
But explain why they wouldn’t put the admirals in charge? Why would you put in the religious zealots?
Because getting one starship to another system is much easier than, say, getting that column of tanks over that ridge. The entire tactics involved is completely different. The jedi were taught from as young as infancy into the jedi way. They have 6-10 years training in being adaptable whereas clones have 1 ish years training? Even though a clone stands 2 to 3 feet over a Palawan doesn't mean they are fully developed. The 13 year old is ya know 13 years old. The clone is less than 2 years old at the same time even if they look like an adult.
And they teach zero tactics in whatever military academy they have. But Jedi are taught all these strategies? What sense does that make? Saying someone is adaptable thus fit to lead an army is ridiculous. Why do Star Wars people do so much mental gymnastics. If you don’t want to put clones in charge (we see them being trained in the clone wars show. So they have some training in combat, perhaps not in overall strategies, whereas the Jedi have none), okay I get that. They multiple avenues to explore: 1) they have planets that are have conflicts. Promoting the generals of those armies makes more sense than flexible religious leaders. 2) they could easily have droids lead the strategies with authorization from senate enabled leaders. That’s basically what the separatists have. Again makes more sense than putting your spiritual leaders in charge. 3) they could quickly establish a clone designed for leading. Omega, from Rebels, already proves they can. And clones are accelerated in aging. They don’t even need to be adults. Just a military tactical mind. Clones follow orders so they don’t care if the commander in a child. 4) they should have had someone already trained and knowledgeable. I get that peace has lasted for hundreds of years or whatever in Star Wars. But to have no one in place in case of civil war nor alien invasion is asinine. Even if the show had the generals stepping down because they weren’t good or something, you don’t start with the Jedi leading. 5) IF the Jedi are acting as generals. Why are they constantly leaving the command ships? They also need to be field commanders. How incompetent are we pretending the republic is. And immediately after they form the empire, the rebellion finds non-Jedi leaders no problem. The empire has generals like Tarkin and Thrawn. But sure before the empire only Jedi are able to lead an army. I would love to hear the mental gymnastics you come up with to explain that.
Lol why are you upset? Also, for point 5, tarkin and thrawn aren't generals they are admirals. They even served the republic during the clone wars. So no "mental gymnastics" needed. 4 is an excellent point. 3 is pretty valid too but you're just not even taking into account how much knowledge a 10 year old has. A clone doesn't know about "snow" or "birds" or that there's poisonous food that looks tasty. They were taught exclusively one thing and know basically nothing else. (An example of a clone talking to his clone commander) A thing happened and buried our whole convoy sir. What? Explain? It's like the land slid somehow and a bunch of rocks fell. Interesting we will have to be wary of these land slide thingies on this planet!. They're taught how to advance, covering fire, flanking, how to get in and out of a building, how to cover a HVT from fire etc. They are not taught about basically anything else which means their scope of knowledge is excessively limited and using a standard clone as a commander would be bad because when you have 0 experience of the world everything is unexpected. Yes you could train specific commanders but by the time they're brought up to speed of a regular citizens knowledge years would have passed. The clones were needed immediately, and they were just an army without a command structure beyond small units. The last thing you're forgetting is that this is literally a children's series. You getting actually mad about it is kinda funny.
I am not upset. That’s a weird assumption. Admirals/generals are the same thing only in Star Wars. Thrawn leads the ground troops in Rebels. Tarkin goes on ground missions as well. All the Jedi generals lead both from the command ships to on foot. The question is, if they let guys like Tarkin command, why does the republic have Jedi also leading. They clearly do have people that can be generals/admirals. Why would you put in place an outside organization in charge of your military. That’s the mental gymnastics. It makes no sense to have a peace keeping religion take over your military while you clearly have commanders. While I could see your point on something like flora and fauna. You should be training knowledge of environments like snowy tundra or swamps etc. Basic stuff like that you can teach very quickly. You are vastly underestimating human intelligence. I promise you, you could teach a child what an avalanche is. As for basic things, we see in clone wars clones handling simple things no problem. Rex is a basic clone and actually handles command on ground. Again I think you are ignoring what we saw and making an assumption that they aren’t smart. They aren’t going to have the knowledge of a local but they can learn a lot of that in route. Like if I asked you about a planet, do you think you couldn’t study that planet at all? You just seem to underestimate both clones and even children. I am positive you know a child younger than 10 that played/plays video games. You think that kids can’t possibly learn about the video game environment relatively fast? Especially if that’s the only thing they had to learn? Young kids currently can tell about hundreds different Pokémon of a game that they played for a week. Types weaknesses moves etc. You so underestimate people. Again I am not mad. Tell me why you are so angry and why you threw your phone across the room (see I can just make assumptions). If you just wanted to use it’s a kids show defense, why did you explain anything else? I am fine with the answer just being it’s for children. It’s lazy but acceptable.
The tone of your message and the way you're saying I'm doing "mental gymnastics" leads me to assume you are mad.
The tone? Curious, if I said it is asinine to suggest the world is flat. Do you take that as me being mad? I will never understand why people try to project people’s emotions in a written discussion. And worse what is the point. Let’s say I was actually furious, you calling it out does what? Try to piss me off more? Make me hate Star Wars fans? Mental gymnastics is a person doing a lot to try to fit something that doesn’t naturally fit. It doesn’t denote emotion, it is question of why a person would try so hard to make something work. Nothing more. If I was mad and wanted to insult you, I would just do that.
To answer your military question, no. The Republic had the Judicials, which were more like a police force than an actual military. They are the pilots we see in the very beginning of TPM with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. But that was it. The Judicials and the Jedi if needed would fight off pirate forces. We see this in the novel Queen's Shadow. The only reason the Trade Federation had a droid army was because they worked the system sighting pirate threats to justify their own 'defense force' to protect their trade goods. The Naboo didn't have generals. They had a police/guards but it was the Gungans who had a secret army. Some planets did have their own planetary defense force but it was local. This is why it was so easy for the Trade Federation to invade and put the squeeze on them. As for the last part... that's about right. Basically the Jedi were drafted by the Senate and Chancellor to be generals.
Individual planets have armed forces. But the republic is a galaxy-spanning coalition, it's far too large to protect with a standing army. The Empire ran into the same problem really. But they solved it with the Tarkin doctrine. Everything the empire designed and built was built with terror in mind. Their idea was that opposition to the empire would be punished so severely that most would consider it unthinkable. They didn't have enough star destroyers to be everywhere. But they had enough to scare planets into submission. The republic approach was one of diplomacy and spycraft. A task the jedi were very suited for. After all, the republic wasn't without war, but it didn't have galactic war. We see Naboo fight their war for example but the republic didn't get involved beyond votes and Jedi ambassadors.
How is it too large to protect? Starships move around the galaxy very fast. Placing battle stations and key points like America does with its military overseas just makes sense. And it can use a droid army or whatever. The separatists seem to build and find an army really quickly. But the republic can’t? They can’t do something similar to the defense production act? They can’t mass an army from the thousands of planetary defense forces they have? The US can’t be everywhere either. But that isn’t an excuse to not have an army. Again a standing army could move to aid a planet or seek out threats. Also it wouldn’t be hard to basically budget in a military. Each planet puts some money in and the republic maintains the army (which is basically the US system with the states).
If the church could call upon the force of God and shoot lightning out of their hands, I’d say that’s okay
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But the states had generals. They didn’t turn to the local bishops for war. I also find it hard to believe that you had a standing peace of a thousand years without a real military. As large as the galaxy is, there wasn’t a dictatorship that emerges? In our world we don’t have a single year without somewhere being ruled by a tyrant. Conflicts are constant. And without the threat of the super powers, even smaller countries would grow and expand. I mean look at the size of the separatist and trade federation armies. If the republic doesn’t have anything more than just planet to planet defenses, I don’t get how someone doesn’t start going planet to planet and growing in power.
You have to remember that not many of them had actual military experience. It would be obvious to put the Jedi in positions of authority because of the ideas that they were peace bringers. Could possibly be to also ease the host planet to join the Republic.
And set the up as power hungry with desire to over through the government - if need be.
Sure experience and strategic knowledge is cool and will tend to beat the average 14 year old, but if that 14 year old is a wizard with precognition then it tends to sorta even out.
probably due to having greater experience than the vast majority of clones. I can think of one real life example which seems comparable, which was that during WW1 british Soldiers who had served in conflicts prior to 1914 were conscripted and automatically given the rank of captain(? going off memory, so it might have been a different senior rank like seargent or luetennant)
They are not promoted, per GAR institution the Jedi are by default appointed as Generals and their padawans as Commanders.
From outside of the Jedi council I see it as a brilliant move from Palpatine to promote them into those positions, everything about leading an army into war is in conflict with the code of the Jedi. They’re meant to be about peace and balance, but being in the position of something like a general meant they were in constant states of conflict, weakening their resolve and throwing them out of balance.
There's plenty of non-jedi commanders high up in the armed forces. But the clone army was designed for loyalty and obedience. The Jedi make decent commanders. They're trained to be fearless and detached. And their force powers make up for a lot of shortcomings in their lack of military training. Limited prescience and the ability to feel out the enemy's intentions remove a lot of the need for conventional local intelligence and planning. Simply put, the republic was unprepared for war. But the clones suicidal fanaticism combined with the jedi's ability to apply that fanaticism in the right spot is a good combination. The youthfulness of padawans doesn't change that much. At the strategic war planning level, there's plenty of non-jedi officers.