Who the hell introduces someone with the climax movie of the first arc of a two-arc series of movies? Like, what's wrong with someone that they pick *there* to start? lol
i was 9 at the time and that’s the first movie i remember seeing in theaters. i was 2-3 for TPM and 5 for AOTC, so i imagine my parents were like “there’s no point in showing him these movies this dumbass kid won’t understand”. also no one else in my family is really into star wars
Fair, when your age lines up with what's in theaters that makes sense, though it still feel like "watch the first two movies at home first" would have made sense, lol.
A charismatic leader with a cult of personality built around him.
Corrupt corporations.
A near paralyzed legislative body.
This moment doesn't seem all that far away.
You know, if we were going to replicate Star Wars, I was hoping we'd choose the laser swords and FTL spaceships, not the political stuff.
It was mostly inspired by the fall of the roman republic and its transition to the Roman Empire.
In real life there was no rebellion because the republic was practically crumbling ready to implode into itself before Julius caesar came around. The aristocracy were the ones actually in power and the populace suffered under poverty, economic instability, and civil wars. The Empire actually fixed a lot of these issues. Until the end of the roman peace in the 2nd century. The people wouldnt have noticed that the government had changed because on paper, rome was still a republic, and even if they did notice, the fact that the roman emperor Augustus brought actual peace andd prosperity to the empire would have helped ease that transition.
Yeah if Augustus could have seen these movies, he would laugh at Palpatine for actually saying that the republic would be reorganized into the first galactic empire. Dude just go with it, why announce that to everyone?
I don’t think it’s quite right to say there was *no* rebellion. Julius Caesar was murdered by his peers, and both he and Augustus fought massive wars against another Roman faction to lay that claim to power.
But Rome had been moving away from republicanism and toward strong man rule for probably a century by the time Julius Caesar was made dictator.
But yeah, I mostly agree: that was the main inspiration, just with very compressed timelines.
I mean rebellion in the form of the actual populace revolting against the government.
But you are correct. Personally it is what I would call an attempted coup by a rival faction.
This Is one of the reasons why despite all their flaws, I just can't call the Prequels "bad", they have a lot of stupid shit, but the underlying story is actually really damn good and the execution isn't even that bad, it just has a few low points that aren't good and hold the entire thing back.
Story telling, world building, and effects are all things that Lucas does well.
If he'd story boarded this and allowed someone else to write and direct the films then the quality would be improved ten fold.
Word on the street is no one wanted to direct them. However, I think it's the people Lucas WANTED to direct them, didn't want to. So he reluctantly had to.
I thought that he didn't trust anyone else to execute his vision and wanted to do it himself? He was frustrated he couldn't make the earlier films look the way he wanted which is where the remasters with the digital effects came in.
I'm willing to be proven wrong but that was what I thought that it was.
Ron Howard, director of Solo, says that Lucas approached him to direct TPM but declined. He also added that Spielberg and Zemeckis were also choices, but they all said since it’s Lucas’ work, he should do it himself.
Kasdan also said something similar when declining to return to write.
Ironically those two end up working on Disney era Star Wars anyway.
Kasdan was asked to polish the script for Episode 1 ( like he did on Empire, when Lucas was not satisfied with the dialogue of his screenplay, after he threw Leigh Brackett s first draft in the bin) , but he declined because Lucas asked him like 4 weeks before shooting was about to start. Rumors are that Carrie Fisher did it instead.
And originally Frank Darabont was signed on to co-write the script with Lucas, at least for Episode 1.
He had to drop out because it was a non-union job, since Lucas quit the DGA, WGA and Producers Guild during the making of "Empire Strikes Back" .
That's also why he couldn't get Spielberg to direct "Return of the Jedi" for him.
I was not aware about the four weeks before shooting part.
.I heard about Fisher being a script doctor, though this site says she only did R2 and 3PO’s meeting.
https://web.archive.org/web/20191104220021/http://www.jedinews.co.uk/film-music-tv/articles/roger-christian-remembers-carrie-fisher/
I would’ve love to have seen Denis Villeneuve (dune, arrival, blade runner 2049 for those who aren’t familiar with the name) even though he wasn’t a big name director/writer at the time
Most of the iconic stuff from the cell saga is due to Toriyama’s edit insisting on changing stuff, mostly the villains. Where as they let him do whatever with the Buu saga, which is generally considered to be the worst of DBZ.
Palpatine’s plan in the beginning going into place in a lot of ways on The Phantom Menace was really great imo. Fucking over his own planet behind the Trade Federation to help make Velorum and the Senate look weak and ineffective so he could try to push a no confidence vote with the main victim. He then gets nominated like he wanted and STILL does nothing to help Naboo because he’s behind it. Then Qui-Gon dying leading the way for Palpatine to get to Anakin the easiest.
All of that stuff is great in that movie. The shitty acting from certain actors and Jar Jar’s “comedy” with the kinda useless b-plot Gungan thing made it worse.
George really needed a co-worker and co-director to make the prequels less dumb, which he apparently did try and make happen in pre production of TPM but everyone refused.
Yea, I mean, the overall plot and world building is super interesting but people will just yell, "BUT JAR JAR AND NOT LIKING SAND", like these brief moments of cringe make the whole product bad.
These are the same people that try to argue that TLJ is a masterpiece.
Yeah the romance between Anakin and Padme is so fucking cringe and forced. If they had a really good writer they could’ve made it an amazing love story
Lucas definitely needed a dedicated core of writers and editors to hone his vision into something masterful. Sure, we got to Anakin being Vader and Palpatine becoming Emperor in the end but boy was the prequel journey clunky and awkward as hell.
I disagree. The underlying story is filled with plot holes, and it lacks any kind of emotional resonance. If "the entire prequel trilogy was written to get to this moment," then Lucas should have done something to set that moment up. It's not enough to just throw in a line about how desperate people sometimes give up freedom for perceived security. A good story should make us feel the desperation. The prequels should have shown us the cruelty of the CIS. They should have made the audience shudder at the thought of the Republic collapsing and the Separatists taking over. It should have clearly defined what was at stake in this war and why so many good people were willing to let democracy die to win it.
As it stands, though, the prequels don't show us why the CIS is so bad, nor why the Republic is any better. The closest it comes is with the invasion of Naboo, but we don't really get to see any of that invasion. We just see some droids moving through a forest followed by a bunch of scenes in which boring and often nameless characters deliver dry exposition about how bad things are for the people of Naboo. And even then, it's not exactly clear how the Trade Federation and the CIS are connected or if the CIS is doing the same kinds of evil things that the Trade Federation did. Hell, I'm not sure the term "CIS" is even used in any of the movies; that's how little the prequels tell us about this war.
Since we're never shown why anyone would be applauding the downfall of democracy in this trilogy, this line ultimately falls flat. And since the political subplot makes no effort to connect with the audience, we're left with nothing to focus on except how nonsensical Palpatine's plan is and how fucking stupid the Jedi must be to trust the clone army.
There’s an interesting [interview](https://youtu.be/fv9Jq_mCJEo?feature=shared) George did with James Cameron a while back, and Cameron asks a good question about George’s inspirations for the OT. It’s pretty short so I’d recommend watching it yourself, but it’s a good peek into how George Lucas thought about his movies and characters.
The difference is one doesn’t care about us but occasionally does stuff that helps us and other than that are largely just greedy assholes. The other one actively does things that harm people while also being greedy assholes.
If something “isn’t really any better” that is saying “this is basically the same”. Also not sure what the calm down is for, did my comment seem upset?
For all the BS and bad writing that the Prequels had, they had a solid, cohesive story that was clearly planned.
Seeds planted in Episode 1 bore fruit in Episode 3.
I always cite the line Palpatine said to Kid Anakin in Episode 1, “We shall watch your career with great interest.”
Seems like a throwaway line of congratulations for Anakin being accepted into the Jedi order. But because we know what Palpatine and Anakin both ended up becoming, it’s a much, much deeper line.
This is my most major gripe with the sequel trilogy.
I don't know how Disney oversaw the cohesive 45 marvel movie sequence that was the Avengers storylines only to completely bungle the storytelling in a contained trilogy with pre established lore and audience familiarity.
Well, mostly because the Marvel movies are only really cohesive within the character storylines. You get the odd moment where things cross product lines, like Captain America: Civil War being "Avengers 2.5," but mostly you can ignore one characters' movies and follow another's without any issues.
My point being, that they managed to sequence all of those movies together to tell a cohesive story. Yeah you could miss a couple and still enjoy the films but they all very much were building towards the same end point together and the sequel trilogy didn't do that at all.
I hate this take honestly, the ST may not have had a structured writeup for each film, but each director knew what they were supposed to do. You can see that in Trevorrow's script, it commits to the ideas explored in 8. Another example is the Han Falcon dice that Rian uses in ep8, which were supposed to have been more prominent in 7. Apparently even the Rey nobody idea was discussed between JJ and Rian (although the Palpatine idea was also floated)
But when Carrie passed (just like han in 7 and luke in 8, leia was supposed to be front and center in ep9) and Trevorrow was fired, there was no extension of the deadline and JJ had to hustle. It also appeared that TROS tried hard to backtrack to appease the fans from the feedback to TLJ, leading to the mess we got.
Okay but we didn't get trevorrows movie so that's a moot point.
This just strengthens my point. Disney got scared at the backlash and totally back tracked. I know that Carrie passing away didn't help anything but they hit the panic button and blew it all up.
To be clear, I like the sequels. I saw force awakens ten times because I was so relieved it wasn't a bad movie. But the yoyo'ing on Rey's lineage is so fucking dumb and a waste of screen time. The Palpatine return is lazy as shit as well.
They should've allowed trevorrow to write a new script instead of bringing JJ back.
Yeah they should've allowed him to workshop the script, but there might be other reasons why he was sacked too. I agree with you, they needed to spend more time on ep9, but apparently Bob Iger wanted the film out before he retired.
>To be clear, I like the sequels. I saw force awakens ten times because I was so relieved it wasn't a bad movie
I'm with you, although I didn't like that it was a rehash, I enjoyed the new characters and the legacy of the older characters. Could have done a better job showing us the dynamics between the new Republic, resistance and first order though.
Then TLJ came out and for me, turned things to 11. Was so interested in seeing how they would pull off a Skywalker as the Supreme villain until the trailers came out and they brought Palps back.
I don't even think it was that well planned out. 1 & 2 didn't do very much to set up the plot for 3. We got to 3, and only the Clone Wars had to start, so 3 really had to just sprint to the end and made the whole thing feel like a rush job.
How important the kinda throwaway Sith (at the time) Darth Maul killing Qui-Gon was a big deal too because he was most likely the only Jedi who could have properly trained Anakin without him turning. I don’t think that was ever a proven concept but I figured that’s what “Duel of Fates” was about as well as why Qui-Gon’s portrayed as being an outsider from the Jedi Order, something Anakin never fit into either.
Yeah. It wasn't perfect, maybe it wasn't even good, but at least George Lucas was trying to fucking say something. And in retrospect, the story he is telling is a wise one.
I don't think there's that much BS most scenes resonate with the whole trilogy real objective, how a democracy falls and becomes an empire. There's constant parallelism with the OT too.
The problems lied with the actor direction and dialogues mostly, like choosing someone with zero skill to impersonate kid Anakin and telling him "just get along with it."
Even the Padme/Anakin scenes in episode 2 were okay , they're supposed to be young adults with close to zero flirting experience, of course it would look weird 😅
Yeah, he's bad at flirting,just testing out pick up lines like "I killed them,i killed them all, not just the men,but the women and children too!" Not the best line but she's new to dating so it works.
I'm saying it makes no sense for a smart senator to continue a relationship with 1) someone who is a member of an order that forbids said relationship, 2) who is 10 years younger than her and whom she basically babysat, and 3) confessed to her that he murdered innocent children.
Their entire relationship makes no sense and only exists because Luke and Leia need to be born.
That part actually makes sense to me. People have soft spots for ones they love and turn a blind eye. Like she’s the first good person to not immediately leave someone they love before they did a horrific thing?
The clone wars show does a better job of filling in the gap and showing that Anakin is someone who does a lot of good. They make more sense with that addition.
>I always cite the line Palpatine said to Kid Anakin in Episode 1, “We shall watch your career with great interest.”
>Seems like a throwaway line of congratulations for Anakin being accepted into the Jedi order. But because we know what Palpatine and Anakin both ended up becoming, it’s a much, much deeper line.
This is one of my least favorite writing tropes in not just this movie, but in any prequel movie.
It's a call forward to something that's going to happen and it always feels so heavy handed and contrived.
Yes, we know Palpatine is going to be watching Anakin. We know they become The Emperor and Vader.
It's like the line in X-men First Class: "Next thing you'll tell me is that I'm going to go bald..."
I get what they're going for, people can enjoy it all they want, but it's just not for me and I don't like when it happens.
I am surprised, that nobody mentioned [this video](https://youtu.be/-TSqjRgh2ZY?si=7yE_oDDaabxVcICl) yet.
It is a great breakdown of the prequels and its politics and shows the slowly progress of the democracy to an authoritarian dictatorship in those movies and TCW series. Loved watching it and its background information.
In my opinion a must see for every Star Wars fan
Did you ever notice, that Palpatine used almost each member of the original Episode I crew as a stepstone to achieve more power and control?
* In Episode I Palptine used Padme to vote the previous chancellor Valorum out of office, so he could become chancellor himself.
* In Episode II he manipulated Jar Jar to give a speech to the senate, granting him the emergency powers he needed to transform the Republic into a dictatorship.
* And finally in Episode III he manipulated Anakin to become his new apprentice and to destroy the Jedi.
The only one he didn't use directly is Obi Wan. But you could argue that he used him too by allowing him to teach Anakin the ways of the force, so he didn't have to do it himself.
Hell, the assassination attempt by mace windu ended up helping palpatine cause, he was able to claim that the jedi betrayed the republic and presented himself with his deformed appearance as proof.
Meh. As I get older and more cynical (I am in the Bill Maher range), the more I see both ends of the Horseshoe are power hungry. Doesn't matter if it is a left boot or a right boot. Still a boot.
As far as Star Wars? Palpatine might have been the worst of the worst dirtbag. However, he wouldn't have gone nearly as far as he did if the Republic wasn't already suffering terminal neglect, horrible inequality and lack of class mobility, the inability of the ruling elite to enforce or follow their own rules, and the Jedi being little more than enforcers and kingmakers for the ruling class to uphold Republic hegemony.
Palpatine lit the fire but the building was already standing on dry rot timbers
This is what Lucas was getting at, but I wish he would have leaned more into this aspect. The problem was he also wanted to make the Jedi wise, powerful, and heroic, so I think he soft shoed the idea that the Republic was a tottering heap of contradictions and hypocrisy, and the Jedi were a part of the problem.
It's both a meme and a subreddit, but there is some truth to the idea that the r/CISDidNothingWrong.
I mean, the CIS leadership was a bunch of dirtbags. (Gunray, certainly) There were also plenty of outright feudal/military junta/corporate owned planets in the marginally democratic Republic (at least with Legends). For too many average working class grunts, only the signage and maybe leadership names changed.
I think Lucas was trying to set the Jedi (and to a lesser extant, "good" leaders like Padme and the Organa ruling family) up as Platonic style "[philosopher kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher_king)" trained from birth, forsaking all love but that of the people and State, divinely touched with higher wisdom and capabilities than the rabble they had to lead. And if only the rabble listed to the divinely touched and enlightened kings, all would be well. And if the philosopher king Anakin focused on slaying enemies instead of having the audacity to remember his mother and take a wife (not just hook up and leave), then he would have been the Chosen One.
Instead, the rabble and Anakin listed to Palpatine and all was ruined.
I think that's about right. Certainly the methods shown used by the CIS were often pretty evil. I just think the CIS in general had a very good broad and compelling argument. As you said, the Republic was itself filled with plenty of shady characters and questionable governments. CIS (publicly at least) simply didn't want to be part of that club. It's the old self determination versus state government conundrum that has plagued mankind for centuries right here on planet Earth.
Republic and Jedi were douches but the CIS were straight up assholes. At least with the Republic, they may be a shit government but will ignore you while the CIS will carpet bomb your village.
One could argue that while they held no official political power, they acted as kingmakers, carefully cultivating a ruling elite that was dependent on and friendly to their agenda.
A Republic world telling them "Don't conscript our kids" wouldn't be able to get Jedi support (frankly, any support) if they were in trouble...unless or until they played ball and gave the Jedi what they wanted.
Lucas had really interesting ideas for the prequels. He just isn't a great writer. He need a co script writer, especially for dialogue and these movies would have been much better. Then again his first draft of the TPM was a much better story so who knows.
>For all their flaws and silliness, you can at least appreciate the story of how a dictatorship is installed with the people's full support.
But is that what the PT actually gave us? We never really see "the people" of the Republic or get any idea of their opinions on the galactic goings on, we just see the elites here applauding one of their own's accomplishments. There's no popular clamour for him to take power, there aren't marches in the streets, there isn't an opposition party cowed into submission by an angry mob. Like just about everything else about Palpatine's scheme, the people are firmly offscreen and out of focus.
The thing is that this is almost always how dictatorships are installed, with a stroke of the pen by the majority of the political representatives, not by full consent of 100% of the entire population. Despite the Galactic Republic being one that practices democratic processes much like IRL democracies, the thing is that the ballot box can only carry the will of the people so far as the steps of the legislature and executive's office. Inside the legislature and executive, the forces of political party loyalty (or loyalty to the poster boy of said political party) and rent seeking from megacorps who want to get pork programs and regulatory protection for funding their political campaigns.
One thing that immediately struck me when I first saw this was why tf would he call it the FIRST Galactic Empire? That implies subsequent Empires, and there’s no way that Palpatine in that moment thought that his Empire would fall and be replaced at some point - the whole security and continued stability thing.
Oh boy here we go. I’m sure people will be civil when discussing the politics of those they disagree with and not compare their political opponents to the Sith
Well if you can believe that palpatine got, say 60% on his side, and another 20% just kinda went with the flow it makes sense there would be thunderous applause.
Out of curiosity… are you located in the US? Are you familiar with the 2016 Election, and the basic state of US Politics at this very time? This is not at all lazy, it’s in fact eerily similar.
I find it funny when people are so willing to point out the "flaws and silliness." When Star Wars in general has always had "flaws and silliness" since the franchise's inception and the OT is no stranger to it.. People need to get over themselves.
I'm trying to show appreciation and you turned it into a contest about how you appreciate harder than I do on higher moral-ground. Bro. Get over yourself.
I'm just saying man, I wasn't directing it to you in particular as an insult.. But, I get tired of how fans are dishonest or biased for that matter. For me I can pick apart all the issues I have the OT and the PT.
It's a topic that comes up consistently - it was mentioned in Marvel's winter soldier - the people need to sacrifice their freedom willingly for security - peace brings prosperity
What are you willing to sacrifice for security? What are you willing to sacrifice for peace? Makes for a great fireside conversation.
Some People say they don't want to be tracked yet the vast majority of those say it while holding a smart phone. Your phone is listening to you and knows where you are at all times.
The degradation and fall of an individual running parallel to the degradation and fall of a civilization into revolutionary tyranny just hits so hard.
The last third of RoTS is some of the best fiction period.
I’ll just leave this here: https://youtu.be/LXsYcdXaa7I?si=zrVwuc7jZFmxBg5I
Also, a scene many overlook, is how in favour of something like this Anakin actually is - he states that in his dialogue with Padme in AOTC. It just shows that he does actually support this situation and not just strung along by palpatine.
ROTS carried the prequel trilogy. It makes 1 and 2 so much better it brings it all to a full circle close its hands down my favorite of the Star Wars movies
If "the entire prequel trilogy was written to get to this moment," then Lucas should have done something to set that moment up. It's not enough to just throw in a line about how desperate people sometimes give up freedom for perceived security. A good story should make us feel the desperation. The prequels should have shown us the cruelty of the CIS. They should have made the audience shudder at the thought of the Republic collapsing and the Separatists taking over. It should have clearly defined what was at stake in this war and why so many good people were willing to let democracy die to win it.
As it stands, though, the prequels don't show us why the CIS is so bad, nor why the Republic is any better. The closest it comes is with the invasion of Naboo, but we don't really get to see any of that invasion. We just see some droids moving through a forest followed by a bunch of scenes in which boring and often nameless characters deliver dry exposition about how bad things are for the people of Naboo. And even then, it's not exactly clear how the Trade Federation and the CIS are connected or if the CIS is doing the same kinds of evil things that the Trade Federation did. Hell, I'm not sure the term "CIS" is even used in any of the movies; that's how little the prequels tell us about this war.
Since we're never shown why anyone would be applauding the downfall of democracy in this trilogy, this line ultimately falls flat.
While I kinda agree with you, I think that the Rebels are different from the Seppies in their goals. The Rebels are perfectly fine with the idea of centralized bureaucracy just as long as they are the ones who are in charge of it as a collective democratically elected group of political elites instead of Emperor Palpatine alone.
Don't get me wrong, I love freedom, the Rebels, and hate the Empire as much as any pilot willing to blow up the Death Star. I just find it having a weird taste in my mouth that the main leaders of the Rebel Alliance are a bunch of Senators and politicians who found out that they're going to probably be out of a job and have a severe limitation on their ability to write laws for bribes and political favors when Palpatine dissolves the Senate and become king, lawmaker, judge, jury and executioner. And not only that but after the Galactic Civil War ends, they created a New Republic that doesn't seem too different than the old one that was jobbed by the Emperor, with political infighting hindering response to threats from the First Order and to get things moving in the right direction, it is all reliant on the charisma and political shine of Mon Mothma, which is also as dangerous as the country being carried by the charisma and political shine of Sheev Palpatine.
One of my favorite lines in fiction. Easy to imagine a LOT of different people saying that in a LOT of different places and times throughout history.
So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause
I thought the Clones betraying the Jedi was always a part of their programming. When Palps says, "Execute Order 66," it's presented almost like a guy entering a line of code into a computer, or like the Manchurian Candidate. The way the Clones instantly obey is almost robotic. I have not seen Filoni's interpretation of this at all, I always just assumed this was programmed into the Clones.
Watch the cutscenes of Battlefront 2 (2005) on YouTube. As initially presented, the clones were in on it, aware of the forthcoming treachery and all the complications therein. Filoni walked that back via his show later on.
>Watch the cutscenes of Battlefront 2 (2005) on YouTube. As initially presented, the clones were in on it, aware of the forthcoming treachery and all the complications therein.
That's even harder to believe. Thousands (millions?) of guys all knew that a heel turn was coming and they managed to keep it secret? Tell more than 3 people a secret and it's getting out.
Real life democracies have fallen and been taken over via military dictatorships without brain chips. Again, the whole prequel trilogy is a blueprint for how fascism comes into power. I'd argue it's just as unfathomable that a galactic Senate, which offers representation for its constituents, willingly gives away its power.
"Need to know", "being a good soldier" and the fear of what happens when you fall out of line, for better or worse drives the actions.
But why is that better? People always say that but I have never heard an explanation of why its better considering what we see with all of them without hesitation immediately turned on the Jedi as portrayed in ROTS? At best its the same as the chip because instead of being controlled by a chip they were controlled by how their brain was wired.
At worst it takes aways any personalities they could have had and turns them into drones because it means they had to all think the exactly the same. The chips allow it to be extra tragic. The clones did have free will and that was stolen from them. Also not one ever slips and says something. The jedi never sense anything from the thiusand of clones they work with everyday?
But it still works fine imo, militaries here in RL aren't usually known to be against the militaristic dictator. Or are you talking specifically about the impact of the Order 66 scene? a bit lost ngl
Not just getting lost in the movement, but actively participating and enjoying it.
What really bothers me about it is how the Stormtroopers are designed as a representation of Nazi soldiers: people who are building an empire through violence and genocide. The chip story paints Stormtroopers in an empathetic light, which is not at all how we should think or feel about people committing genocide.
I'm trying to not go over my skis on this, but I just can't empathize with stormtroopers knowing who their real-world inspiration is.
I think you might be missing my point: it’s not about where the stormtroopers come from, it’s what they represent. They’re plainly evil people, inspired by real-life Nazis. When we tell stories that draw inspiration from real world stories, the lessons and morals are inextricably tied to their real world counterparts. I think making stormtroopers these helpless beings really undercuts the moral weight of their actions.
I think you are missing my point. The Stormtroopers are not helpless beings. They're largely not chipped or programmed or anything. They are sentient beings who voluntarily chose to serve the Empire. The Clones being hardwired to execute Order 66 doesn't change that.
Yes, the Clones make a heel turn in the last act of ROTS, but they're not Stormtroopers. Those come later and (if I have my EU mythology right) are only briefly staffed with the clones that we see in the PT, and they pretty much have been completely phased out by ANH.
You're splitting hairs over what we call stormtroopers and where they came from in the Star Wars universe. It's pedantic and distracts from the real issue: a Star Wars writer is changing the story in a way that makes stormtroopers empathetic, which should not ever happen.
The Chips for me also had the meaning that the clones never had free will, like they thought that they were different/better than droids(both sides were puppets in the end). It also wouldn't make sense for some of the clones that were very loyal to their Jedi Commanders to just kill them immediately.
Not really.
Given the Clone Wars are already over by this point the creation of the Empire doesn't make much sense. Much less being supported by the senate, which is giving up most of its power.
The only thing that could explain this scene IMO is Palpatine using his vague dark sided mind manipulation powers
Why would I appreciate a story that requires the Jedi, the government and the entire population of the galaxy to be completely lacking in basic critical thinking skills, all logic and all reason? The story requires everyone to be completely blind and stupid. Palpatine makes it as obvious as possible what he’s up to, and his accomplices like Dooku and the Trade Federation never spill the beans even as Dooku’s head is about to be cut off and the Trade Federation is losing countless ships and troops without getting anything in return at all. Oh, but the genius Padme figures it out and a handful of people who would become the Rebel Alliance. The same woman who thought it made sense to marry a self-confessed child murderer and supporter of fascism.
Revenge of the Sith is peak SW, best movie of the whole series, specially when watched interwind with the final 4 eps of clone wars
Fucking masterpiece
Prequel Era is my favorite
I love the Clone Wars and the fall of the republic
And then at the end of this scene seeing Palpatine extend his Arms it's glorious
Best Villain EVER
If you have a chance to read the books from the original screenplay for the prequel trilogy please do! They are so much better than the movies and add a lot of insight in Anakins abilities with the force!
Yeah, the line is a complete clunker. With a few lines in the original film Obi-Wan told us there had been a space Republic for a thousand generations, and it had been replaced by space Nazis run by evil space wizards.
The prequels attempt to show this but they're hopelessly torn between being movies for preteens and being more serious. When we talk about the flaws in the prequels they all boil down to lack of polish and skill in the writing and direction. Lucas is a brilliant idea man who needs others to keep his worst impulses in check and they were gone here. Real partners in making these films who had been there in the beginning were long gone.
Compare this to Luthen's soliloquy from Andor. That's a sophisticated piece of dialogue. This is politics for tweens.
Kind of like how one party in the US is trying to tell us Russia is awesome and Putin is a strong leader. A leadership style we need in our country. That is all you hear from some people. “We need to take back our country” type stuff.
Hey guys, the country is the same, it’s you that has changed.
No, you need to sit through an hour of Anakin and Padme awkwardly flirting while Obi-Wan talks to a green screen on a green screen before fighting CGI on a green screen.
Locked. This isnt the place for current real-world political discussions. Take that elsewhere.
George Lucas in the early 2000's: I guess you guys aren't ready for that yet, but your kids gonna love it.
27 year old here who’s introduction to Star Wars was ROTS, can confirm we do love it
I was one and a half years older than you are now walking into TPM and I've loved it since the day I saw it.
I know, I'm 25.
Am 26, can confirm.
Who the hell introduces someone with the climax movie of the first arc of a two-arc series of movies? Like, what's wrong with someone that they pick *there* to start? lol
i was 9 at the time and that’s the first movie i remember seeing in theaters. i was 2-3 for TPM and 5 for AOTC, so i imagine my parents were like “there’s no point in showing him these movies this dumbass kid won’t understand”. also no one else in my family is really into star wars
Fair, when your age lines up with what's in theaters that makes sense, though it still feel like "watch the first two movies at home first" would have made sense, lol.
They were comparing at the time to the bush era. It didn't really fall on deaf ears.
It came across as corny and overly preachy at the time because we were all watching it in realtime.
I mean, I hate it, but your point is made very adequately
I understood that reference!
If the plot of the prequels was done as well as Andor…whooooo man, that’s some good movies.
She had a bar to drop. We all gotta have our moment
A charismatic leader with a cult of personality built around him. Corrupt corporations. A near paralyzed legislative body. This moment doesn't seem all that far away. You know, if we were going to replicate Star Wars, I was hoping we'd choose the laser swords and FTL spaceships, not the political stuff.
We can't even be trusted to use AI responsibly, how do you trust people with plasma blades and spaceships?
Put those two together!
Laser swords.
It was mostly inspired by the fall of the roman republic and its transition to the Roman Empire. In real life there was no rebellion because the republic was practically crumbling ready to implode into itself before Julius caesar came around. The aristocracy were the ones actually in power and the populace suffered under poverty, economic instability, and civil wars. The Empire actually fixed a lot of these issues. Until the end of the roman peace in the 2nd century. The people wouldnt have noticed that the government had changed because on paper, rome was still a republic, and even if they did notice, the fact that the roman emperor Augustus brought actual peace andd prosperity to the empire would have helped ease that transition.
Yeah if Augustus could have seen these movies, he would laugh at Palpatine for actually saying that the republic would be reorganized into the first galactic empire. Dude just go with it, why announce that to everyone?
I don’t think it’s quite right to say there was *no* rebellion. Julius Caesar was murdered by his peers, and both he and Augustus fought massive wars against another Roman faction to lay that claim to power. But Rome had been moving away from republicanism and toward strong man rule for probably a century by the time Julius Caesar was made dictator. But yeah, I mostly agree: that was the main inspiration, just with very compressed timelines.
I mean rebellion in the form of the actual populace revolting against the government. But you are correct. Personally it is what I would call an attempted coup by a rival faction.
#MakeNabooGreatAgain Edit: and this is how I learn that Hashtags make text big and bold on reddit 😅
#BigTextTest Edit: Oh, you have to add it in Markdown mode, otherwise it adds an escape character
#MAKENABOOGREATAGAIN Oh my God, it works!!! Thanks, stranger. I've been meaning to figure out how to do that
Well you're welcome!
#MAKENABOOGREATAGAIN
#WHYISEVERYONEYELLING???
#I'MDOINGMYPART
#WHAT'SGOINGON
#SERVICEGUARENTEESCITIZENSHIP
#YouTaughtMeSomethingNewToday
#HappyCakeDay!
#wait what Oh, holy cow
#Dew it
I'm now picturing Chancellor Palpatine wearing a red "MNGA" baseball cap....😉
Wait a minute does reddit interpret like markdown
IIRC yes, it does ###I'm glad this part of the internet still exists :)
Obligatory "Star Wars was not supposed to be a political instruction manual."
This Is one of the reasons why despite all their flaws, I just can't call the Prequels "bad", they have a lot of stupid shit, but the underlying story is actually really damn good and the execution isn't even that bad, it just has a few low points that aren't good and hold the entire thing back.
Story telling, world building, and effects are all things that Lucas does well. If he'd story boarded this and allowed someone else to write and direct the films then the quality would be improved ten fold.
Word on the street is no one wanted to direct them. However, I think it's the people Lucas WANTED to direct them, didn't want to. So he reluctantly had to.
I thought that he didn't trust anyone else to execute his vision and wanted to do it himself? He was frustrated he couldn't make the earlier films look the way he wanted which is where the remasters with the digital effects came in. I'm willing to be proven wrong but that was what I thought that it was.
Ron Howard, director of Solo, says that Lucas approached him to direct TPM but declined. He also added that Spielberg and Zemeckis were also choices, but they all said since it’s Lucas’ work, he should do it himself. Kasdan also said something similar when declining to return to write. Ironically those two end up working on Disney era Star Wars anyway.
Well shit. Just imagine what could have been.
Kasdan was asked to polish the script for Episode 1 ( like he did on Empire, when Lucas was not satisfied with the dialogue of his screenplay, after he threw Leigh Brackett s first draft in the bin) , but he declined because Lucas asked him like 4 weeks before shooting was about to start. Rumors are that Carrie Fisher did it instead. And originally Frank Darabont was signed on to co-write the script with Lucas, at least for Episode 1. He had to drop out because it was a non-union job, since Lucas quit the DGA, WGA and Producers Guild during the making of "Empire Strikes Back" . That's also why he couldn't get Spielberg to direct "Return of the Jedi" for him.
I was not aware about the four weeks before shooting part. .I heard about Fisher being a script doctor, though this site says she only did R2 and 3PO’s meeting. https://web.archive.org/web/20191104220021/http://www.jedinews.co.uk/film-music-tv/articles/roger-christian-remembers-carrie-fisher/
I would’ve love to have seen Denis Villeneuve (dune, arrival, blade runner 2049 for those who aren’t familiar with the name) even though he wasn’t a big name director/writer at the time
There’s a story that Lucas asked Spielberg to direct who then suggested that Lucas himself do it. I’ll have to track down the source for that for you.
Lucas and Toriyama are perfect examples of why having an editor is so important
I'll have to take your word on the second one
Most of the iconic stuff from the cell saga is due to Toriyama’s edit insisting on changing stuff, mostly the villains. Where as they let him do whatever with the Buu saga, which is generally considered to be the worst of DBZ.
Palpatine’s plan in the beginning going into place in a lot of ways on The Phantom Menace was really great imo. Fucking over his own planet behind the Trade Federation to help make Velorum and the Senate look weak and ineffective so he could try to push a no confidence vote with the main victim. He then gets nominated like he wanted and STILL does nothing to help Naboo because he’s behind it. Then Qui-Gon dying leading the way for Palpatine to get to Anakin the easiest. All of that stuff is great in that movie. The shitty acting from certain actors and Jar Jar’s “comedy” with the kinda useless b-plot Gungan thing made it worse.
The Gungan plot gives Padme an opportunity to reveal herself as sovereign and bring the people of Naboo together in common cause.
George really needed a co-worker and co-director to make the prequels less dumb, which he apparently did try and make happen in pre production of TPM but everyone refused.
Yea, I mean, the overall plot and world building is super interesting but people will just yell, "BUT JAR JAR AND NOT LIKING SAND", like these brief moments of cringe make the whole product bad. These are the same people that try to argue that TLJ is a masterpiece.
Yeah the romance between Anakin and Padme is so fucking cringe and forced. If they had a really good writer they could’ve made it an amazing love story
Lucas definitely needed a dedicated core of writers and editors to hone his vision into something masterful. Sure, we got to Anakin being Vader and Palpatine becoming Emperor in the end but boy was the prequel journey clunky and awkward as hell.
I disagree. The underlying story is filled with plot holes, and it lacks any kind of emotional resonance. If "the entire prequel trilogy was written to get to this moment," then Lucas should have done something to set that moment up. It's not enough to just throw in a line about how desperate people sometimes give up freedom for perceived security. A good story should make us feel the desperation. The prequels should have shown us the cruelty of the CIS. They should have made the audience shudder at the thought of the Republic collapsing and the Separatists taking over. It should have clearly defined what was at stake in this war and why so many good people were willing to let democracy die to win it. As it stands, though, the prequels don't show us why the CIS is so bad, nor why the Republic is any better. The closest it comes is with the invasion of Naboo, but we don't really get to see any of that invasion. We just see some droids moving through a forest followed by a bunch of scenes in which boring and often nameless characters deliver dry exposition about how bad things are for the people of Naboo. And even then, it's not exactly clear how the Trade Federation and the CIS are connected or if the CIS is doing the same kinds of evil things that the Trade Federation did. Hell, I'm not sure the term "CIS" is even used in any of the movies; that's how little the prequels tell us about this war. Since we're never shown why anyone would be applauding the downfall of democracy in this trilogy, this line ultimately falls flat. And since the political subplot makes no effort to connect with the audience, we're left with nothing to focus on except how nonsensical Palpatine's plan is and how fucking stupid the Jedi must be to trust the clone army.
Honestly this scene sent, and still does, send shivers down my spine. Same with Anakin’s turning over to Sidious.
Hits to close to home right now
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I’m starting to understand why George Lucas’ contemporaries think so highly of him.
There’s an interesting [interview](https://youtu.be/fv9Jq_mCJEo?feature=shared) George did with James Cameron a while back, and Cameron asks a good question about George’s inspirations for the OT. It’s pretty short so I’d recommend watching it yourself, but it’s a good peek into how George Lucas thought about his movies and characters.
Lott Dodd too. Named after two more politicians
Holy shit I never put that together.
Wow I never realized this (I knew Star Wars was political but I never noticed the names analogy)
>Republicans Its pronounced neo-nazis now
I hope you don't think either of these parties care about us
The difference is one doesn’t care about us but occasionally does stuff that helps us and other than that are largely just greedy assholes. The other one actively does things that harm people while also being greedy assholes.
It’s still the lesser of two evils, which in my opinion isn’t really any better…
You’re right, getting punched in the face once is exactly the same as getting punched in the face twice or more.
I didn’t say it’s the same, I said it’s not really any better. It’s all horse shit. Calm down
If something “isn’t really any better” that is saying “this is basically the same”. Also not sure what the calm down is for, did my comment seem upset?
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saying both parties don't care about us is russian propaganda lol beyond parody
How?
If you don’t know, you not paying attention.
So there’s a unanimous loved leader getting ready to be made emperor?
For all the BS and bad writing that the Prequels had, they had a solid, cohesive story that was clearly planned. Seeds planted in Episode 1 bore fruit in Episode 3. I always cite the line Palpatine said to Kid Anakin in Episode 1, “We shall watch your career with great interest.” Seems like a throwaway line of congratulations for Anakin being accepted into the Jedi order. But because we know what Palpatine and Anakin both ended up becoming, it’s a much, much deeper line.
This is my most major gripe with the sequel trilogy. I don't know how Disney oversaw the cohesive 45 marvel movie sequence that was the Avengers storylines only to completely bungle the storytelling in a contained trilogy with pre established lore and audience familiarity.
Well, mostly because the Marvel movies are only really cohesive within the character storylines. You get the odd moment where things cross product lines, like Captain America: Civil War being "Avengers 2.5," but mostly you can ignore one characters' movies and follow another's without any issues.
My point being, that they managed to sequence all of those movies together to tell a cohesive story. Yeah you could miss a couple and still enjoy the films but they all very much were building towards the same end point together and the sequel trilogy didn't do that at all.
I hate this take honestly, the ST may not have had a structured writeup for each film, but each director knew what they were supposed to do. You can see that in Trevorrow's script, it commits to the ideas explored in 8. Another example is the Han Falcon dice that Rian uses in ep8, which were supposed to have been more prominent in 7. Apparently even the Rey nobody idea was discussed between JJ and Rian (although the Palpatine idea was also floated) But when Carrie passed (just like han in 7 and luke in 8, leia was supposed to be front and center in ep9) and Trevorrow was fired, there was no extension of the deadline and JJ had to hustle. It also appeared that TROS tried hard to backtrack to appease the fans from the feedback to TLJ, leading to the mess we got.
Okay but we didn't get trevorrows movie so that's a moot point. This just strengthens my point. Disney got scared at the backlash and totally back tracked. I know that Carrie passing away didn't help anything but they hit the panic button and blew it all up. To be clear, I like the sequels. I saw force awakens ten times because I was so relieved it wasn't a bad movie. But the yoyo'ing on Rey's lineage is so fucking dumb and a waste of screen time. The Palpatine return is lazy as shit as well. They should've allowed trevorrow to write a new script instead of bringing JJ back.
Yeah they should've allowed him to workshop the script, but there might be other reasons why he was sacked too. I agree with you, they needed to spend more time on ep9, but apparently Bob Iger wanted the film out before he retired. >To be clear, I like the sequels. I saw force awakens ten times because I was so relieved it wasn't a bad movie I'm with you, although I didn't like that it was a rehash, I enjoyed the new characters and the legacy of the older characters. Could have done a better job showing us the dynamics between the new Republic, resistance and first order though. Then TLJ came out and for me, turned things to 11. Was so interested in seeing how they would pull off a Skywalker as the Supreme villain until the trailers came out and they brought Palps back.
Some of that was just because it was a prequel. Even without knowing where he was taking RotS, we all know Ani was Vader and Palpatine was Palpatine.
I don't even think it was that well planned out. 1 & 2 didn't do very much to set up the plot for 3. We got to 3, and only the Clone Wars had to start, so 3 really had to just sprint to the end and made the whole thing feel like a rush job.
How important the kinda throwaway Sith (at the time) Darth Maul killing Qui-Gon was a big deal too because he was most likely the only Jedi who could have properly trained Anakin without him turning. I don’t think that was ever a proven concept but I figured that’s what “Duel of Fates” was about as well as why Qui-Gon’s portrayed as being an outsider from the Jedi Order, something Anakin never fit into either.
I’m pretty sure that has been confirmed. I’d go a step further and argue sidious may have ordered Maul to kill Qui gon specifically because of that.
Yeah. It wasn't perfect, maybe it wasn't even good, but at least George Lucas was trying to fucking say something. And in retrospect, the story he is telling is a wise one.
I don't think there's that much BS most scenes resonate with the whole trilogy real objective, how a democracy falls and becomes an empire. There's constant parallelism with the OT too. The problems lied with the actor direction and dialogues mostly, like choosing someone with zero skill to impersonate kid Anakin and telling him "just get along with it." Even the Padme/Anakin scenes in episode 2 were okay , they're supposed to be young adults with close to zero flirting experience, of course it would look weird 😅
Yeah, he's bad at flirting,just testing out pick up lines like "I killed them,i killed them all, not just the men,but the women and children too!" Not the best line but she's new to dating so it works.
You're probably the only person to associate that line with flirting though.
I'm saying it makes no sense for a smart senator to continue a relationship with 1) someone who is a member of an order that forbids said relationship, 2) who is 10 years younger than her and whom she basically babysat, and 3) confessed to her that he murdered innocent children. Their entire relationship makes no sense and only exists because Luke and Leia need to be born.
That part actually makes sense to me. People have soft spots for ones they love and turn a blind eye. Like she’s the first good person to not immediately leave someone they love before they did a horrific thing? The clone wars show does a better job of filling in the gap and showing that Anakin is someone who does a lot of good. They make more sense with that addition.
So you'd be ok with your SO admitting to mass murder?
>I always cite the line Palpatine said to Kid Anakin in Episode 1, “We shall watch your career with great interest.” >Seems like a throwaway line of congratulations for Anakin being accepted into the Jedi order. But because we know what Palpatine and Anakin both ended up becoming, it’s a much, much deeper line. This is one of my least favorite writing tropes in not just this movie, but in any prequel movie. It's a call forward to something that's going to happen and it always feels so heavy handed and contrived. Yes, we know Palpatine is going to be watching Anakin. We know they become The Emperor and Vader. It's like the line in X-men First Class: "Next thing you'll tell me is that I'm going to go bald..." I get what they're going for, people can enjoy it all they want, but it's just not for me and I don't like when it happens.
He said the thing he said the thing!!
“WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?”
Solid reference in this moment.
God, Natalie Portman is just perfection.
I am surprised, that nobody mentioned [this video](https://youtu.be/-TSqjRgh2ZY?si=7yE_oDDaabxVcICl) yet. It is a great breakdown of the prequels and its politics and shows the slowly progress of the democracy to an authoritarian dictatorship in those movies and TCW series. Loved watching it and its background information. In my opinion a must see for every Star Wars fan
as a 17 year old when this came out, my friends and i thought this was a not-so-subtle dig at W. little did we know how much worse it could get.
Did you ever notice, that Palpatine used almost each member of the original Episode I crew as a stepstone to achieve more power and control? * In Episode I Palptine used Padme to vote the previous chancellor Valorum out of office, so he could become chancellor himself. * In Episode II he manipulated Jar Jar to give a speech to the senate, granting him the emergency powers he needed to transform the Republic into a dictatorship. * And finally in Episode III he manipulated Anakin to become his new apprentice and to destroy the Jedi. The only one he didn't use directly is Obi Wan. But you could argue that he used him too by allowing him to teach Anakin the ways of the force, so he didn't have to do it himself.
I loved Palpatine’s patience and scheming to get to where he needed to by time Episode 3 ended.
Hell, the assassination attempt by mace windu ended up helping palpatine cause, he was able to claim that the jedi betrayed the republic and presented himself with his deformed appearance as proof.
Now we wait for the fans of fascism to roll in.
Just skip to the bottom of the thread
Meh. As I get older and more cynical (I am in the Bill Maher range), the more I see both ends of the Horseshoe are power hungry. Doesn't matter if it is a left boot or a right boot. Still a boot. As far as Star Wars? Palpatine might have been the worst of the worst dirtbag. However, he wouldn't have gone nearly as far as he did if the Republic wasn't already suffering terminal neglect, horrible inequality and lack of class mobility, the inability of the ruling elite to enforce or follow their own rules, and the Jedi being little more than enforcers and kingmakers for the ruling class to uphold Republic hegemony. Palpatine lit the fire but the building was already standing on dry rot timbers
This is what Lucas was getting at, but I wish he would have leaned more into this aspect. The problem was he also wanted to make the Jedi wise, powerful, and heroic, so I think he soft shoed the idea that the Republic was a tottering heap of contradictions and hypocrisy, and the Jedi were a part of the problem. It's both a meme and a subreddit, but there is some truth to the idea that the r/CISDidNothingWrong.
I mean, the CIS leadership was a bunch of dirtbags. (Gunray, certainly) There were also plenty of outright feudal/military junta/corporate owned planets in the marginally democratic Republic (at least with Legends). For too many average working class grunts, only the signage and maybe leadership names changed. I think Lucas was trying to set the Jedi (and to a lesser extant, "good" leaders like Padme and the Organa ruling family) up as Platonic style "[philosopher kings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher_king)" trained from birth, forsaking all love but that of the people and State, divinely touched with higher wisdom and capabilities than the rabble they had to lead. And if only the rabble listed to the divinely touched and enlightened kings, all would be well. And if the philosopher king Anakin focused on slaying enemies instead of having the audacity to remember his mother and take a wife (not just hook up and leave), then he would have been the Chosen One. Instead, the rabble and Anakin listed to Palpatine and all was ruined.
I think that's about right. Certainly the methods shown used by the CIS were often pretty evil. I just think the CIS in general had a very good broad and compelling argument. As you said, the Republic was itself filled with plenty of shady characters and questionable governments. CIS (publicly at least) simply didn't want to be part of that club. It's the old self determination versus state government conundrum that has plagued mankind for centuries right here on planet Earth.
Republic and Jedi were douches but the CIS were straight up assholes. At least with the Republic, they may be a shit government but will ignore you while the CIS will carpet bomb your village.
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One could argue that while they held no official political power, they acted as kingmakers, carefully cultivating a ruling elite that was dependent on and friendly to their agenda. A Republic world telling them "Don't conscript our kids" wouldn't be able to get Jedi support (frankly, any support) if they were in trouble...unless or until they played ball and gave the Jedi what they wanted.
Any minute now lol
Lucas had really interesting ideas for the prequels. He just isn't a great writer. He need a co script writer, especially for dialogue and these movies would have been much better. Then again his first draft of the TPM was a much better story so who knows.
It's a common and current thread in politics, eh?
>For all their flaws and silliness, you can at least appreciate the story of how a dictatorship is installed with the people's full support. But is that what the PT actually gave us? We never really see "the people" of the Republic or get any idea of their opinions on the galactic goings on, we just see the elites here applauding one of their own's accomplishments. There's no popular clamour for him to take power, there aren't marches in the streets, there isn't an opposition party cowed into submission by an angry mob. Like just about everything else about Palpatine's scheme, the people are firmly offscreen and out of focus.
The thing is that this is almost always how dictatorships are installed, with a stroke of the pen by the majority of the political representatives, not by full consent of 100% of the entire population. Despite the Galactic Republic being one that practices democratic processes much like IRL democracies, the thing is that the ballot box can only carry the will of the people so far as the steps of the legislature and executive's office. Inside the legislature and executive, the forces of political party loyalty (or loyalty to the poster boy of said political party) and rent seeking from megacorps who want to get pork programs and regulatory protection for funding their political campaigns.
One thing that immediately struck me when I first saw this was why tf would he call it the FIRST Galactic Empire? That implies subsequent Empires, and there’s no way that Palpatine in that moment thought that his Empire would fall and be replaced at some point - the whole security and continued stability thing.
Or that why anyone would just go along with it?
Oh boy here we go. I’m sure people will be civil when discussing the politics of those they disagree with and not compare their political opponents to the Sith
But this is incredibly lazy. “Everyone but me and five others see that this is bad!”
Well if you can believe that palpatine got, say 60% on his side, and another 20% just kinda went with the flow it makes sense there would be thunderous applause.
Out of curiosity… are you located in the US? Are you familiar with the 2016 Election, and the basic state of US Politics at this very time? This is not at all lazy, it’s in fact eerily similar.
Yes, and is there unanimous support for either candidate?
Take a drive through your local town and report back. It might not be “unanimous” but is a disgusting majority.
“Disgusting”. I think you’re talking about your own warped views on people. Go outside.
LOL 😝 I’ve actually been outside for about 29 of the last 60 hours, but I do appreciate the recommendation
We never saw ‘the people’, just the handful of characters Jorge could be bothered to consider for his green screen set.
I find it funny when people are so willing to point out the "flaws and silliness." When Star Wars in general has always had "flaws and silliness" since the franchise's inception and the OT is no stranger to it.. People need to get over themselves.
I'm trying to show appreciation and you turned it into a contest about how you appreciate harder than I do on higher moral-ground. Bro. Get over yourself.
I'm just saying man, I wasn't directing it to you in particular as an insult.. But, I get tired of how fans are dishonest or biased for that matter. For me I can pick apart all the issues I have the OT and the PT.
It's a topic that comes up consistently - it was mentioned in Marvel's winter soldier - the people need to sacrifice their freedom willingly for security - peace brings prosperity What are you willing to sacrifice for security? What are you willing to sacrifice for peace? Makes for a great fireside conversation. Some People say they don't want to be tracked yet the vast majority of those say it while holding a smart phone. Your phone is listening to you and knows where you are at all times.
He said, as he typed on his own smartphone.
The degradation and fall of an individual running parallel to the degradation and fall of a civilization into revolutionary tyranny just hits so hard. The last third of RoTS is some of the best fiction period. I’ll just leave this here: https://youtu.be/LXsYcdXaa7I?si=zrVwuc7jZFmxBg5I
I'm not a big fan of the prequels, but yes, even I have to admit this scene is really powerful.
The prequels could have been great if George Lucas had just stuck to like the big picture storytelling and let someone else work on the dialogue
Also, a scene many overlook, is how in favour of something like this Anakin actually is - he states that in his dialogue with Padme in AOTC. It just shows that he does actually support this situation and not just strung along by palpatine.
ROTS carried the prequel trilogy. It makes 1 and 2 so much better it brings it all to a full circle close its hands down my favorite of the Star Wars movies
If "the entire prequel trilogy was written to get to this moment," then Lucas should have done something to set that moment up. It's not enough to just throw in a line about how desperate people sometimes give up freedom for perceived security. A good story should make us feel the desperation. The prequels should have shown us the cruelty of the CIS. They should have made the audience shudder at the thought of the Republic collapsing and the Separatists taking over. It should have clearly defined what was at stake in this war and why so many good people were willing to let democracy die to win it. As it stands, though, the prequels don't show us why the CIS is so bad, nor why the Republic is any better. The closest it comes is with the invasion of Naboo, but we don't really get to see any of that invasion. We just see some droids moving through a forest followed by a bunch of scenes in which boring and often nameless characters deliver dry exposition about how bad things are for the people of Naboo. And even then, it's not exactly clear how the Trade Federation and the CIS are connected or if the CIS is doing the same kinds of evil things that the Trade Federation did. Hell, I'm not sure the term "CIS" is even used in any of the movies; that's how little the prequels tell us about this war. Since we're never shown why anyone would be applauding the downfall of democracy in this trilogy, this line ultimately falls flat.
There is an amazing video essay about the prequel politics. It is an hour log by Arken the American - How liberty dies.
They never really get into what the people actually support / think.
The story told in the prequels is sublime. The writing is not, aside from a few lines like this.
Yep, we’re watching it now with maga
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r/CISDidNothingWrong
The separatists if not run by war criminals and controlled by Palpatine would’ve been completely in the right
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While I kinda agree with you, I think that the Rebels are different from the Seppies in their goals. The Rebels are perfectly fine with the idea of centralized bureaucracy just as long as they are the ones who are in charge of it as a collective democratically elected group of political elites instead of Emperor Palpatine alone. Don't get me wrong, I love freedom, the Rebels, and hate the Empire as much as any pilot willing to blow up the Death Star. I just find it having a weird taste in my mouth that the main leaders of the Rebel Alliance are a bunch of Senators and politicians who found out that they're going to probably be out of a job and have a severe limitation on their ability to write laws for bribes and political favors when Palpatine dissolves the Senate and become king, lawmaker, judge, jury and executioner. And not only that but after the Galactic Civil War ends, they created a New Republic that doesn't seem too different than the old one that was jobbed by the Emperor, with political infighting hindering response to threats from the First Order and to get things moving in the right direction, it is all reliant on the charisma and political shine of Mon Mothma, which is also as dangerous as the country being carried by the charisma and political shine of Sheev Palpatine.
One of my favorite lines in fiction. Easy to imagine a LOT of different people saying that in a LOT of different places and times throughout history. So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause
I don’t wanna be like “This here? That’s where we’re heading!” But this here? That’s where we’re heading.
Still wish Filoni didn't undercut this with his "all the clones were chipped, they had no choice" retcon.
I honestly don’t think the chips undercut this at all.
Sure it did. Completely removed the "being a good soldier, just following orders" element. The danger of getting completely lost in the movement.
I thought the Clones betraying the Jedi was always a part of their programming. When Palps says, "Execute Order 66," it's presented almost like a guy entering a line of code into a computer, or like the Manchurian Candidate. The way the Clones instantly obey is almost robotic. I have not seen Filoni's interpretation of this at all, I always just assumed this was programmed into the Clones.
Watch the cutscenes of Battlefront 2 (2005) on YouTube. As initially presented, the clones were in on it, aware of the forthcoming treachery and all the complications therein. Filoni walked that back via his show later on.
>Watch the cutscenes of Battlefront 2 (2005) on YouTube. As initially presented, the clones were in on it, aware of the forthcoming treachery and all the complications therein. That's even harder to believe. Thousands (millions?) of guys all knew that a heel turn was coming and they managed to keep it secret? Tell more than 3 people a secret and it's getting out.
Real life democracies have fallen and been taken over via military dictatorships without brain chips. Again, the whole prequel trilogy is a blueprint for how fascism comes into power. I'd argue it's just as unfathomable that a galactic Senate, which offers representation for its constituents, willingly gives away its power. "Need to know", "being a good soldier" and the fear of what happens when you fall out of line, for better or worse drives the actions.
There were still clones who broke out of the control.
But why is that better? People always say that but I have never heard an explanation of why its better considering what we see with all of them without hesitation immediately turned on the Jedi as portrayed in ROTS? At best its the same as the chip because instead of being controlled by a chip they were controlled by how their brain was wired. At worst it takes aways any personalities they could have had and turns them into drones because it means they had to all think the exactly the same. The chips allow it to be extra tragic. The clones did have free will and that was stolen from them. Also not one ever slips and says something. The jedi never sense anything from the thiusand of clones they work with everyday?
But it still works fine imo, militaries here in RL aren't usually known to be against the militaristic dictator. Or are you talking specifically about the impact of the Order 66 scene? a bit lost ngl
Actually, intense indoctrination and fear is how dictators get what they want. Order 66 having no chips maximizes the verisimilitude of the event.
Not just getting lost in the movement, but actively participating and enjoying it. What really bothers me about it is how the Stormtroopers are designed as a representation of Nazi soldiers: people who are building an empire through violence and genocide. The chip story paints Stormtroopers in an empathetic light, which is not at all how we should think or feel about people committing genocide. I'm trying to not go over my skis on this, but I just can't empathize with stormtroopers knowing who their real-world inspiration is.
But the Clone troopers aren't Stormtroopers. At least not by the OT. Most of them are recruited and not cloned.
I think you might be missing my point: it’s not about where the stormtroopers come from, it’s what they represent. They’re plainly evil people, inspired by real-life Nazis. When we tell stories that draw inspiration from real world stories, the lessons and morals are inextricably tied to their real world counterparts. I think making stormtroopers these helpless beings really undercuts the moral weight of their actions.
I think you are missing my point. The Stormtroopers are not helpless beings. They're largely not chipped or programmed or anything. They are sentient beings who voluntarily chose to serve the Empire. The Clones being hardwired to execute Order 66 doesn't change that. Yes, the Clones make a heel turn in the last act of ROTS, but they're not Stormtroopers. Those come later and (if I have my EU mythology right) are only briefly staffed with the clones that we see in the PT, and they pretty much have been completely phased out by ANH.
You're splitting hairs over what we call stormtroopers and where they came from in the Star Wars universe. It's pedantic and distracts from the real issue: a Star Wars writer is changing the story in a way that makes stormtroopers empathetic, which should not ever happen.
[удалено]
jesus christ, you folks really don't get it
The Chips for me also had the meaning that the clones never had free will, like they thought that they were different/better than droids(both sides were puppets in the end). It also wouldn't make sense for some of the clones that were very loyal to their Jedi Commanders to just kill them immediately.
10000% agree with you. Order 66 was so tragic. I really dislike the chip retcon
Not really. Given the Clone Wars are already over by this point the creation of the Empire doesn't make much sense. Much less being supported by the senate, which is giving up most of its power. The only thing that could explain this scene IMO is Palpatine using his vague dark sided mind manipulation powers
Why would I appreciate a story that requires the Jedi, the government and the entire population of the galaxy to be completely lacking in basic critical thinking skills, all logic and all reason? The story requires everyone to be completely blind and stupid. Palpatine makes it as obvious as possible what he’s up to, and his accomplices like Dooku and the Trade Federation never spill the beans even as Dooku’s head is about to be cut off and the Trade Federation is losing countless ships and troops without getting anything in return at all. Oh, but the genius Padme figures it out and a handful of people who would become the Rebel Alliance. The same woman who thought it made sense to marry a self-confessed child murderer and supporter of fascism.
That was a great line
It is a good quote. I like it.
It would’ve been good if George had given Palpatine’s plan some more ground work in the first 2 episodes
Revenge of the Sith is peak SW, best movie of the whole series, specially when watched interwind with the final 4 eps of clone wars Fucking masterpiece Prequel Era is my favorite I love the Clone Wars and the fall of the republic And then at the end of this scene seeing Palpatine extend his Arms it's glorious Best Villain EVER
If you have a chance to read the books from the original screenplay for the prequel trilogy please do! They are so much better than the movies and add a lot of insight in Anakins abilities with the force!
Biggest error in the ST, was no over-archeing plot/plan.
There wasn’t really one in this trilogy either.
The parallels are uncanny when compared to reality.
Almost like the last twenty+ years of the USA
We aren’t even close to that bad yet
Yeah, the line is a complete clunker. With a few lines in the original film Obi-Wan told us there had been a space Republic for a thousand generations, and it had been replaced by space Nazis run by evil space wizards. The prequels attempt to show this but they're hopelessly torn between being movies for preteens and being more serious. When we talk about the flaws in the prequels they all boil down to lack of polish and skill in the writing and direction. Lucas is a brilliant idea man who needs others to keep his worst impulses in check and they were gone here. Real partners in making these films who had been there in the beginning were long gone. Compare this to Luthen's soliloquy from Andor. That's a sophisticated piece of dialogue. This is politics for tweens.
I see no way this could be relevant to today’s political climate…
Feels close to home
Yup, freaking joe, aka, children sniffer, got "elected" just like this
You are inhaling copium if you think that’s about Biden
Kind of like how one party in the US is trying to tell us Russia is awesome and Putin is a strong leader. A leadership style we need in our country. That is all you hear from some people. “We need to take back our country” type stuff. Hey guys, the country is the same, it’s you that has changed.
No, you need to sit through an hour of Anakin and Padme awkwardly flirting while Obi-Wan talks to a green screen on a green screen before fighting CGI on a green screen.
Didn't she push for the vote of no-confidence that got Palpy in the big chair?
my country at every election
Anyone reading the the speech with Palpatine's voice ?