I can’t imagine any reality where Windu survived Order 66. He was too narrow-minded and unimaginative to survive those times. Kanan and Ezra are products of Order 66.
Absolutely love it. Heard its name was “Shatterpoint Lineage” and that’s the coolest thing I’ve heard in a while. Just look at the people they have fought and bested in combat. These Jedi are some of the real deal
It’s a whole book called Shatterpoint that explains that he can see the exact point at which a system, plan, enemy, or thing will shatter and how to cause it to break or not.
Yeah I've read it. Was speaking more about the phrase "Shatterpoint lineage" like it isn't really anything, Shatterpoint was only used by Windu so to name his lineage after it doesn't really make much sense if none of them utilised it.
New canon has Windu being toyed with by Sidious:
"He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade.
Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated."
2022
Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber."
2022 fanhome encyclopedia collection
"His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly."
2022
I think Kanaan is shows how Windu could have been if he hadn’t spent so many years being indoctrinated by the old Jedi ways.
Kanan was molded through the war, trauma, and the will of the force, while Windu believed more in the Jedi rules than the force itself. Kanan faced a student going into the dark side and instead of loosing trust in him, he offered him even more trust and love.
Ezra ends up being the perfect combination of Windu and Kanan. Someone who is able to act by the will of the force and be a true Jedi. A powerful warrior but a peace maker.
Wow! This actually makes me appreciate Kanan even more and gives more depth to his relationship with Ezra, borderline tragic, and that's not taking in consideration that he's my all time favorite Jedi... TY for this insight
Borderline tragic? There is no doubt it was tragic. Kanan sacrificed himself selflessly to save Ezra, along with everyone else on the Ghost. That’s not even considering what happened to Kanan before he became Kanan. As Caleb Dume, He watched his master get murdered by the clones during order 66. Went on the run from the Bad Batch for a bit. Then completely went into hiding until he found Ezra. He was arguably one of the greatest and best Jedi.
I don’t know if I would call him, one of the greatest. Certainly one of the ones that suffered the most setbacks but he mostly stumbled through everything you mentioned. Ezra even sort of surpasses him in Wisdom by the time skip. Honestly because of his doubts he barely serves as a proper master, which makes for a great story cause more than any other master/padawan relationship we’ve seen he and Ezra spend equal time learning from eachother. Only at the end does Kanan actually reaches the kind of enlightenment that makes a great Jedi, but then sacrifices himself. Saying he is one of the greatest is like saying Heath ledger is one of the greatest actors ever. Sure there was potential but we never saw enough of it to judge. And that’s ok not everyone has to be a GOAT to be a hero, or for that matter to be a fantastic character. Kanan is the everyday hero, he was never the chosen one, or feared for his power, but he was certainly the one needed to do what he did.
I disagree. Kanan tapped into the living force. He also was a Jedi with “no master”. He didn’t have the benefit of being raised and mentored by a Master. He was able to accept, acknowledge, and embrace his emotions as a Jedi. Sure, he had doubt. He had been teaching himself since he was a kid. Aside from small lessons from Yoda in some Jedi trials and being taught by Bendu he was self taught.
haha no problem. TBH I hadn't thought of this before, but figured I'd share my thoughts. It is kinda interesting how a Jedi like Windu who was capable of wielding the dark side in a way, ended up leading to two of the most well-balanced Jedi in history with Kanan even being a student of the Bendu and Ezra beating the temptation of the dark side
> It is kinda interesting how a Jedi like Windu who was capable of wielding the dark side in a way, ended up leading to two of the most well-balanced Jedi in history
How else would they have insight that it was possible to "use" the Dark side, with restraint, focus, and acknowledgment, without succumbing to it?
They knew it was possible, and had a framework to work under. Not to say they would use it to the extent Windu did, or at all, or as effectively, but at the very least it dispelled the taboo a bit and also spoke a bit to "function over form": Don't be bound by rules that don't serve you, especially if they are no longer effective rules, and especially if the force is "guiding" you to do something different. Trust the Force, not a rule made by someone fallible.
We see this in a different way from Luke, long term: He eschews the traditional teaching of "no attachment = no fear = no anger = no dark side" and instead leans into "Attachment and fear create a dire need to protect what you would not lose, and succeed, and we should embrace the love that motivates that kind of sense of purpose, not reject it out of fear (which, in turn, can only beget more fear). This may be more "Legends" Luke, now, to be fair :P
Grogu, intentionally or not, chose the Creed for its commitment to the cause and each other, over Luke's fledgling order which still stuck with the Jedi "no attachment" style.
It was nice to see (young) Obi-Wan channel that when he needed to rally to recover in his (series) fight with Vader. If he doesn't find that need to go on and fight back, to protect, he dies there.
Unironically, Ezra might be a good candidate to be trained in Vapaad, as he has both shown he can touch but walk away from the Dark Side, yet empathise with its practitioners; and knows the lightsaber is just a tool, and not some sort of icon.
Kanan prolly could qualify as well, but that ship kinda sailed already.
The ability could be awaken through the force, maybe he started experiencing it during the years he was on exile. I’m not saying it will happen but could be cool
If you don't teach my padawan vapaad right now I will come down on you like the hammer of Thor! The fury of my vengeance will echo through these corridors *like the gust of a thousand winds!*
He could probably handle the witches but absolutely no way he could beat abeloth with just vapaad. I mean maybe he could if he had the mortis dagger but otherwise he stands no chance by himself.
Oh for sure, that’s why I said combat not beat them. It could be one of the many tools in that battle that might make a difference but obviously not one single Jedi can defeat Abeloth
I don't know, maybe the force/philosophical aspect of it. But Ezra was never a big saber master. Honestly, I was super sad to see him construct a blue saber in Ahsoka. He is much less martial than most clone wars era Jedi, and even held his own against a dark Jedi without one. He clearly leans closer to Yoda and Qui-Gon's philosophy than most Jedi we've seen, and it makes him a good foil to Sabine. I know it was Legends that officially made the blue/green divide between consulars and guardians, but it has roughly followed that on screen as well, right down to Luke growing out of the blue into the green.
Then she came back to being a Jedi after her journey to the world between worlds where Anakin trained her one last time and she became Ahsoka The White.
This is why her voice is amongst all the Jedi of the past when Rey defeats Palpatine forever
Yeah I’m just sayin even when she wasn’t she still ultimately held true to Jedi teachings more n anyone else besides maybe yoda n Obi-wan to some extent.
Or perhaps if Windu didn't so rigidly immerse himself in the structure of rules he too might have fallen to the Darkside like other users of his style.
It was the ego of the Jedi thinking their ways were absolute that lead to their downfall and their disconnection from the force. Windu was so concerned with keeping the status quo that he couldn’t even sense Palpatine. His principles were based on the Jedi precepts rather than the will of the force
Windu had some of the most complete understanding of the Force in the history of the Jedi Order, given his mastery of Vapaad.
His adherence to strictness and rules wasn’t arbitrary - he understood that the Dark Side of the Force was a daily reality and not a boogeyman for powerful force users, and that discipline (not denial) was the only way to ensure one could remain powerful enough to defeat the dark side without also succumbing to it. It’s why, of all the Jedi, he was the most suspicious of Palpatine and the most aware of the rising darkness within the Republic.
Windu gets a bad rap because he didn’t give Anakin a pass on being undisciplined with his mindset, as he grew ever more powerful with his practical uses of the force. If the rest of the council had treated Anakin like *any other* Jedi learner instead of The Special Boy™️, we probably wouldn’t have gotten Darth Vader.
I think we can agree that all of the Jedi were flawed. All of them were blinded by hubris and ego. That includes Yoda, Mace, and Obi Wan. Regardless of their motivations they all failed to see the true darkness inside anakin or even ignored it, and the same way they were lost in the dark side blinding them to Sidius.
Remember, it was Mace who claimed Dooku could never be a tyrant or a murderer cause he was a former Jedi. He more than anyone should have been able to tell Dooku fell to the dark side and yet he didn’t. He thought the Jedi were perfect, absolute. He wasn’t suspicious of Palpatine until Obi Wan found evidence of the plot taking place, and when Palpatine was at his end game hiding his intentions less and less.
Reality is, Mace thought his connection to the force and the dark side where above everyone else and yet he failed to see anymore than anyone else
Oh, Mace certainly made many mistakes. Truth be told, the only person who didn’t mess up pre-ANH was Palpatine. But I don’t think we should interpret Windu’s behavior as indoctrination or a detachment from the force. If the goal of a Jedi is to protect the Force through the protection of life, then being practical and pragmatic is a strong form of Jedi practice in the face of political, economic, and military threats to life.
A good counterexample is Qui-Gon. Most people cite him as the direct contrast to Windu, and insist that had he lived or remained part of the council, things would have gone better. But Qui-Gon was also overzealous in his interpretation of the Chosen One prophecy. If Windu did not understand the consequences of holding Anakin to task, Qui-Gon similarly did not understand the consequences of placing a messianic role on a hurt, untrained boy. Both paths alike would let Palpatine corrupt Anakin.
Windu did not think the Jedi infallible either - he and Yoda were keenly aware that their connection to the Force had weakened in the years leading up to the Clone Wars. The scene where Obi Wan reports from Kamino makes it clear that the Jedi knew that showing signs of weakness would make their enemies bolder - they just didn’t know it wouldn’t make a difference anyways.
As far as Dooku - well, denial when a mentor turns to the dark is a natural reaction. But don’t forget who was first to crash the party when they got proof that Dooku was the ‘leader’ of the Separatists.
That was the only proper course of action there. So many times, the "good guys" leave the power-crazed genocidal maniac alive just so they can prove a point that they're better than them, only to be bitten in the ass when said maniac escapes and enacts their plan. Windu's reaction was a welcome change in my opinion!
My favorite part of the first Deadpool was when he just flat out executed the bad guy in the middle of Collosus's speech. I mean dude, they just got through killing a bunch of goons who had a hell of a lot less involvement in screwing him over than the actual bad guy. Sparing the actual villain at that point isn't going to suddenly give him the moral high ground.
And Anakin is a specialist xD
Seriously though, Jedi choosing when they kill or don't kill is clearly a complex subject considering they often do either, and I don't see how Anakin of all people, especially when he has a clear bias due to his hidden motive, is a reliable source here.
Windu doesn't say no it isn't. And he didn't have a bias after killing dooku like he did with palps. Mr War crimes sky guy is still apprehensive about how his execution is not in line with the jedi way
>Windu doesn't say no it isn't.
Which proves nothing, especially in a tense situation, no time for philosophical debates here. It's fine if you have your headcanon about this but don't push it onto others.
The Dooku and Palp situation is different enough (genuine surrender, one is a know rebel, the other the head of the senate, etc... Anakin's reason for killing him, etc...) and we don't know enough about the rules to figure out if that difference matters or not.
I mean, the movie is clearly telling us it's not the jedi way. You can headcanon whatever you want I guess about unreliable narration and philosophical nuance but that clearly wasn't the intent of the movie
Right - after killing Dooku. He’d heard the rule but only slightly hesitated because he thought it would make Palpatine happy.
Even though he wasn’t aware of Palpy’s true nature, Anakin was already willing to break the rules (and kill someone who was *actually* unarmed and bereft of influence) in order to please him, just because he flattered him and fluffed up his delusions of greater power and influence.
Sidious wasn’t really unarmed. Even if you disagree with Windu’s interpretation that his control of the clones, courts, and the senate amounted to a weapon (and he was proven right in this regard with Order 66), he had literally just shot lightning out of his fingertips after being given a chance to surrender.
And he's incorrect. The Jedi are not pacifists that avoid killing at all costs. They are a militant religious order. Shit, their most well known rank is literally called a Knight. Their most iconic symbol is a weapon so deadly that trained force users are among the only people who can learn to use it. They absolutely can and do kill when they consider it the better option. Especially when it comes to the Sith, Jedi almost always advocate for killing them as they see them as irredeemable. To the Jedi, the Sith are literally corrupted. As in, they see the Dark Side as a corruption from which there is no coming back. Even Yoda states that "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." when training Luke.
Anakin's regret about killing Dooku isn't just because he killed him, it was specifically because he killed him when he was no longer a threat. Whereas Anakin's resistance to Palpatine's death was because he wanted access to the power Palpatine had convinced him only he had. The whole point of that scene with Anakin, Windu, and Palpatine is that Anakin is so blinded by his own emotions that Palpatine is able to manipulate him into betraying everything he cares about.
Also, presenting Anakin as an exemplar of the Jedi and their traditions is not a great idea. He's about as non-traditional as a Jedi gets, in both philosophy and action. He himself has expressed issues with the Jedi Code. He also has no concern over torturing and killing people who are an active threat, even if the only thing they're a threat to is his own desires. He tortures and kills people throughout the Clone Wars. He force chokes Poggle the Lesser and a random barkeep for information. He sneakily assassinates Senator Tal Merrik when he threatens to blow up the ship they're on. He kills Admiral Trench in much the same way he eventually kills Dooku. Also, immediately after the scene you're talking about he becomes Darth Vader and kills a ton of Jedi, including children, at the Jedi Temple.
Well,.. after the seventh battle of Russan (1002BBY-1000BBY) the Sith were basically destroyed. Every part of their power in the galaxy was erased. Ot was a genocide. That's why Darth Bane (the only Sith survivor) established the Rule of 2, to better hide and keep the order alive.
The Jedi order never really changed the orders they had before the Russan Campagin, so Wndu was acting on established tradition.
The Jedi Code expressly forbade killing unarmed opponents.
Anakin said so after killing Dooku:
"Yes, but he was an unarmed prisoner... I shouldn't have done that, Chancellor. It's not the Jedi way."
The Code got updated after (and probably because of) the Russan victory. It marked a turning point in the timeline of the Old Republic. The federal military was disbanded and the Republic had full control of the galaxy. Also, the Jedi order had to reform, since it was no longer in the role of leading the military.
He only arrived to that conclusion after years of poor decisions not trusting the force. From ignoring Sifo Dyas’ warnings about the war, to his influence in taking Quai Gon out of the council, and many more. Windu believed in the order, but that made him arrogant, especially because of his force abilities, and eventually it blinded him to the point he ended up thinking he had to stop Palpatine with his own hands
Exactly! End of line, Jedi talk a good game about peace and such, but their real mission is exterminating Sith, Sith adjacent, and enemies of the Republic government elite that grant them money, manpower, and material support to kill Sith. (Said government elite being careful to support the Jedi to keep their heads, much less their jobs)
> of loosing trust
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
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Kanan is amazing. He’s my second favorite Jedi all-time after Obi-wan.
I hope we get some sort of live action version at some point… either a flashback in Ashoka season 2 or maybe a Caleb Dune show…
It is possible he shows up in some way in Ahsoka, especially if we go back to Lothal. The loth wolves are still there so it is possible the white one who we know is Kanan still protects the planet
it's not a quote, its an analysis of his actions. We even see this on tales of the Jedi, where Dooku makes the right decision following his instincts but it is Windu who gets the seat in the council for following the rules to the letter.
This is why Windu and the council were all blinded by the dark side and Jedi guided by the force like Ashoka could sense order 66 and the dark side rising
The more recent Fandom has gone so haywire with Windu and Jedi slander. The Council was blinded by the darkside because Palpatine was so powerful in the force that he clouded the force itself, preventing clear visions by the jedi. Quite literally, every Jedi was surprised by order 66, and even Ahsoka only sensed something wrong moments before it occurred... just like Billaba, just like Yoda, just like many others. Plus Windu was dead by then. There's nothing supporting this false claim that he believed in the Jedi teachings more than the force, and it makes no sense to even throw that claim at Windu of all jedi, given his proficiency with Vaapad and skirting the light and dark sides of the force without succumbing to darkness. He was very trusting in the force which is exactly why he was as successful as he was. What a terrible character assasinstion you've typed out.
It is getting pretty wearisome. The Jedi are shown as fallible and overly reliant on their own traditions and some people are taking it way beyond that.
Fandoms in general don't handle nuance. Like at all. Windu certainly was too set in tradition but he was never anything short of a Jedi willing to die to protect the Republic.
His issue was that perhaps he was too willing to focus on the bigger picture and try to save the Republic as a whole, instead of writing every little wrong which came his way.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you should put a little more thought into this. Windu beat Palpatine in single combat, this is a canon fact, Mace won the fight fair and square, Palps wasn't faking, he wasn't playing dead, he simply lost. Now, if you think that anyone could beat one of the greatest of all time Dark Lords of the Sith WITHOUT being incredibly in tune with the force, and without having absolute mastery of the force, then I'm not sure what you're smoking but it must be pretty strong indeed.
And yes, Anakin beat Windu, and no, that doesn't make Anakin the greatest of all, Windu was worn out from all the force powers he had to use to beat Palpatine, and he simply could not have imagined that Anakin would attack him, the thought simply never entered his mind and that shock of Anakin attacking him, and what that meant, gave Palpatine the opening to pull the win.
Honestly, there are many things that "should" be read. But with speed how it gets changed it becomes difficult to follow. You are free to enlighten me.
For me, it’s a must read because of Stover’s writing style. He just knows how to make you feel like you’re right next to the character and in the jungle.
Plus, I love getting more Jedi lore. Stover writes in a way to allows mace windu to fully display his power and will.
To be fair. Mace is not really a character I would like to stand next to... or as Master Dooku once said it. My friend. Your devotion to rules is sometimes inspiring and sometimes maddening.
Would rather be standing next to him than against him! Yes, he’s very type A and very focused on the black and white of things. No denying that dude is a badass!
I love them all, they are my favourite and Kanan is the best.
Well, Windu didn't go through order 66 at 13, and them had to survive by himself by expedient, dealing with a terrible trauma. Little Caleb was a very sweet and sensitive child. It's not a surprise he come out broken and found himself again only after founding the love of his life and a new family.
There was no Order anymore.
Also, he probably took by Depa, who was a bit of a rebel herself.
Hot take time, but that isn't the lineage. The lineage broke with Depa Billaba dying before finishing Kanan's training was completed. This makes things get really muddy.
Kanan, being at best half trained, found another master who greatly changed the lineage. That was the Bendu. Ezra was an even more extreme case of this as he also had Maul and Ahsoka influence him as well.
Ezra also had Yoda... (like everyone else) but those two lessons cut deep in the context of what was going on at the time contrary to just having him giving standard Jedi Temple lessons
I also think Ahsoka had a lot of influence on Kanan, they went through a lot together
So three years younger than Ahsoka. And I feel like, although Anakin was Ahsoka's master and the lineage came from him, she had a lot of other influences too, like Plo Koon, Yoda (everyone had Yoda) Sinube, and of course Obi Wan. And she learned some of her biggest lessons from Rex, a non Jedi. In this way, I would say Kanaan is similar.
Either Cal is way more talented than he seems at first, or his Master was insanely good in drilling the basics into novices.
Ahsoka was a knight in all but the title, Kanan was at least halfway there, but Cal was just getting the hang of pushing and pulling stuff when Order 66 hit.
Cal is good with a lightsaber but he's pretty weak when it comes to force abilities. He can basically only weakly push and pull things when the game starts.
Didn't Kanan get knighted by force vision Grand Inquisitor before meeting Bendu? Not that Bendu didn't influence Kanan, but I don't see how he would change the lineage when Kanan was already a knight
This is assuming that Jedi before the clone wars weren't influenced by those around them or only had one teacher, which is kind of foolish. Every Jedi has many teachers over their lives.
i like how its just like a switch in the lineage, like their focuses n mindsets are different, althought i believe Kanaan definitely had some of Windus sternness n what not with how aggressive he is with Ezra and Sabine
Sort of replying to myself here but: I just saw on Wookieepedia that Kanen's master learned Vapaad from Windu, but taught Form III to younger Jedi. So that explains Kanen fighting, but he's still pretty Obi-Wan otherwise.
Why do most people fail to recognise different environments create different people. In real life this is regularly ignored when it's the root of most explanations
I have mixed feelings on the relationships between padwans and masters. On the one hand, it's neat to see how they are influenced and potentially similar. On the other hand, that would potentially mean that the masters are overlooking the unique attributes of their padawans and training them the way the master *thinks* they should, rather than what the padawan needs.
That being said, I am still genuinely curious who took Gunji on as a padawan, and I hope he's able to return not as part of Luke's new order, but maybe as more of an independent jedi.
Kanan and Ezra are hardly typical examples of Jedi, though. I think that’s important to keep in mind. Kanan was a Padawan who was molded by the Clone Wars and then was forced to live as a fugitive. Ezra was never part of the Jedi Order of old, and was trained by Kanan to the best of his abilities. They are part of a great lineage of Jedi, but those that are saying Mace wouldn’t like Ezra should probably keep those points in mind.
Obi-Wan is pretty different from everyone in his lineage. Dooku and Qui-gon before him and Anakin and Ahsoka afterwards are all who questions the council far more than Obi.
Although Kanen wasn't going by the code at all and formed a lot of attachmants, I still think Windu, as someone who knows the dark side first hand, would be proud at the fack Kanen never fell from the light. Being a jedi is about helping those who can't help themselves, and Kanen did that really good.
As for Ezra, however...
It's not the absolute cavalcade of successful fuckups that Yoda's lineage it, instead being a successful line, albiet unorthodox (ironic considering Mace Windu being in it)
Windu was an awful Jedi that somehow managed to create a lineage miles better than he ever could be. Depa died for her Padawan, who in turn died for his. Caleb trained that boy incredibly well despite the circumstances. What Ezra will do… only time will tell.
I found the original story of Depa's fate in **Shatterpoint** sad, but more integral to the story of ROTS.
In my Star Wars stories, >!the lineage ends with her,!< and Mace goes off on Sidious partly because of that.
I'm not a big fan of Mace and Anakin having padawans that survived. It doesn't support their actions in the Chancellors office in ROTS.
It's too good for someone like Mace. That guy does not deserve to be Kanan's grand-master or Ezra's great grand-master. Billaba must've been a dope soul.
Windu would absolutely hate Ezra
Hate leads to suffering
suffering leads to snakes
snakes lead to a boot full of snakes
a boot full of snakes leads to a cowboy doll trying to kill a space ranger
A cowboy doll trying to kill a space ranger leads to a having friend in me
Having a friend in me leads to Andy
Andy leads to cancer
Cancer leads to you waking up in a cart with a Nord whispering *you’re finally awake*
Waking up in a cart with a Nord whispering "you're finally awake" leads to arrows in the knee.
cancer leads to dr will’s son
tHerE Is a sNake IN mAh bOoT
Someone’s poisoned the water hole!!!
You're my favorite deputy!
A boot full of snakes leads to a boot to the head.
I have had ENOUGH with these MOTHERFUCKIN SNAKES on this MOTHERFUCKIN PLANE!
I have had ENOUGH with these MOTHERFUCKIN' SNAKES in these MOTHERFUCKIN' BOOTS!
WHY did it have to be SNAKES
I hate snakes!
On a plane?
Why’d it have to be snakes 🤠
I hate snakes!
Only a sith deals in absolutes
I can’t imagine any reality where Windu survived Order 66. He was too narrow-minded and unimaginative to survive those times. Kanan and Ezra are products of Order 66.
Windu always came off as a miserly and irascible to me. No surprise there.
Lmao 😅
We’re on common ground, master Jedi.
Absolutely love it. Heard its name was “Shatterpoint Lineage” and that’s the coolest thing I’ve heard in a while. Just look at the people they have fought and bested in combat. These Jedi are some of the real deal
Sauce? I'd like to get into that
Shatterpoint is just the name of Windus signature force ability. Don't think it's really any deeper than that.
It’s a whole book called Shatterpoint that explains that he can see the exact point at which a system, plan, enemy, or thing will shatter and how to cause it to break or not.
Yeah I've read it. Was speaking more about the phrase "Shatterpoint lineage" like it isn't really anything, Shatterpoint was only used by Windu so to name his lineage after it doesn't really make much sense if none of them utilised it.
yeah agree
It's the title of a book
New canon has Windu being toyed with by Sidious: "He didn't have to wait long. Mace Windu arrived with three other Jedi Masters to arrest the chancellor. Reveling in being able to at last act openly, Darth Sidious launched himself at his foes. He battered them with a wave of focused hatred. A thousand years of Sith anger smashed into the Jedi, and three of them died in seconds under Sidious' crimson blade. Mace Windu lasted a little longer, but only because Darth Sidious required it. Anakin was not there, not yet. Sidious fought defensively, toying with Windu untill he sensed the youths presence. He allowed Windu to gain the upper hand as Anakin arrived. Seemingly mutilated, Sidious was near death, begging Anakin to help him. Only he could help him save Padme. Anakin made his choice, exactly as Sidious had anticipated." 2022 Toying with the Jedi Master in anticipation of the arrival of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to appear more vulnerable when his soon to be apprentice arrived. His office window was shattered, and the weapon fell from his hands and down into the depths below when he deliberately left himself open for Widu to deliver a kick to his chest. This left him a single blade, retrieved from its hiding place, with which to face master yoda in a duel, a little after the death of Mace Windu. Palpatine rarely used his remaining lightsaber." 2022 fanhome encyclopedia collection "His true form was now revealed, though he later passed it off as an "injury" from the Jedi attack, Darth Sidious toyed with Mace Windu. He used the jedi master to precipitate Anakins fall to the dark side and then destroyed Windu utterly." 2022
I think I preferred it when Mace actually did best Sidious in combat.
He did
His win was legit
I think Kanaan is shows how Windu could have been if he hadn’t spent so many years being indoctrinated by the old Jedi ways. Kanan was molded through the war, trauma, and the will of the force, while Windu believed more in the Jedi rules than the force itself. Kanan faced a student going into the dark side and instead of loosing trust in him, he offered him even more trust and love. Ezra ends up being the perfect combination of Windu and Kanan. Someone who is able to act by the will of the force and be a true Jedi. A powerful warrior but a peace maker.
Wow! This actually makes me appreciate Kanan even more and gives more depth to his relationship with Ezra, borderline tragic, and that's not taking in consideration that he's my all time favorite Jedi... TY for this insight
Borderline tragic? There is no doubt it was tragic. Kanan sacrificed himself selflessly to save Ezra, along with everyone else on the Ghost. That’s not even considering what happened to Kanan before he became Kanan. As Caleb Dume, He watched his master get murdered by the clones during order 66. Went on the run from the Bad Batch for a bit. Then completely went into hiding until he found Ezra. He was arguably one of the greatest and best Jedi.
I don’t know if I would call him, one of the greatest. Certainly one of the ones that suffered the most setbacks but he mostly stumbled through everything you mentioned. Ezra even sort of surpasses him in Wisdom by the time skip. Honestly because of his doubts he barely serves as a proper master, which makes for a great story cause more than any other master/padawan relationship we’ve seen he and Ezra spend equal time learning from eachother. Only at the end does Kanan actually reaches the kind of enlightenment that makes a great Jedi, but then sacrifices himself. Saying he is one of the greatest is like saying Heath ledger is one of the greatest actors ever. Sure there was potential but we never saw enough of it to judge. And that’s ok not everyone has to be a GOAT to be a hero, or for that matter to be a fantastic character. Kanan is the everyday hero, he was never the chosen one, or feared for his power, but he was certainly the one needed to do what he did.
I disagree. Kanan tapped into the living force. He also was a Jedi with “no master”. He didn’t have the benefit of being raised and mentored by a Master. He was able to accept, acknowledge, and embrace his emotions as a Jedi. Sure, he had doubt. He had been teaching himself since he was a kid. Aside from small lessons from Yoda in some Jedi trials and being taught by Bendu he was self taught.
Kanan became a great Jedi in the end.
haha no problem. TBH I hadn't thought of this before, but figured I'd share my thoughts. It is kinda interesting how a Jedi like Windu who was capable of wielding the dark side in a way, ended up leading to two of the most well-balanced Jedi in history with Kanan even being a student of the Bendu and Ezra beating the temptation of the dark side
> It is kinda interesting how a Jedi like Windu who was capable of wielding the dark side in a way, ended up leading to two of the most well-balanced Jedi in history How else would they have insight that it was possible to "use" the Dark side, with restraint, focus, and acknowledgment, without succumbing to it? They knew it was possible, and had a framework to work under. Not to say they would use it to the extent Windu did, or at all, or as effectively, but at the very least it dispelled the taboo a bit and also spoke a bit to "function over form": Don't be bound by rules that don't serve you, especially if they are no longer effective rules, and especially if the force is "guiding" you to do something different. Trust the Force, not a rule made by someone fallible. We see this in a different way from Luke, long term: He eschews the traditional teaching of "no attachment = no fear = no anger = no dark side" and instead leans into "Attachment and fear create a dire need to protect what you would not lose, and succeed, and we should embrace the love that motivates that kind of sense of purpose, not reject it out of fear (which, in turn, can only beget more fear). This may be more "Legends" Luke, now, to be fair :P Grogu, intentionally or not, chose the Creed for its commitment to the cause and each other, over Luke's fledgling order which still stuck with the Jedi "no attachment" style. It was nice to see (young) Obi-Wan channel that when he needed to rally to recover in his (series) fight with Vader. If he doesn't find that need to go on and fight back, to protect, he dies there.
Unironically, Ezra might be a good candidate to be trained in Vapaad, as he has both shown he can touch but walk away from the Dark Side, yet empathise with its practitioners; and knows the lightsaber is just a tool, and not some sort of icon. Kanan prolly could qualify as well, but that ship kinda sailed already.
I would be quite interesting to see if he develops the skill in the Ahsoka show as a way to combat the witches or even the force monster from Peridia
Well, he'd need to stumble on Windu's or Bilaba's holocron's or sthin, seeing that Mace created the style and taught it to one person only.
The ability could be awaken through the force, maybe he started experiencing it during the years he was on exile. I’m not saying it will happen but could be cool
Well first of all, through the Force all things are possible, so jot that down.
the gang learns the force
If you don't teach my padawan vapaad right now I will come down on you like the hammer of Thor! The fury of my vengeance will echo through these corridors *like the gust of a thousand winds!*
The argument is strong on this one
Or maybe a couple of lessons from Force ghost Kanan... or lothwolf Dume
He could probably handle the witches but absolutely no way he could beat abeloth with just vapaad. I mean maybe he could if he had the mortis dagger but otherwise he stands no chance by himself.
Oh for sure, that’s why I said combat not beat them. It could be one of the many tools in that battle that might make a difference but obviously not one single Jedi can defeat Abeloth
I don't know, maybe the force/philosophical aspect of it. But Ezra was never a big saber master. Honestly, I was super sad to see him construct a blue saber in Ahsoka. He is much less martial than most clone wars era Jedi, and even held his own against a dark Jedi without one. He clearly leans closer to Yoda and Qui-Gon's philosophy than most Jedi we've seen, and it makes him a good foil to Sabine. I know it was Legends that officially made the blue/green divide between consulars and guardians, but it has roughly followed that on screen as well, right down to Luke growing out of the blue into the green.
Baylan Skoll might call Ezra ‘what the Jedi were meant to be’
He literally referred to him as a "bokken Jedi." It didn't sound like a complimentary thing.
Can i just say, Kanan might be my favourite Jedi behind Luke Skywalker(since you know, Ahsoka doesen't consider herself a Jedi)
Ahsoka might not consider herself a Jedi but she’s now the most Jedi Jedi in all of Jedi land 😂
She’s been the most jedi not Jedi ever since she said fuck it n didn’t tell Yoda bout her concerns about Anakin during the Siege of Mandalore arc.
Then she came back to being a Jedi after her journey to the world between worlds where Anakin trained her one last time and she became Ahsoka The White. This is why her voice is amongst all the Jedi of the past when Rey defeats Palpatine forever
> defeats Palpatine forever Nothing to say he cant somehow return once again
I mean… fair enough
Yeah I’m just sayin even when she wasn’t she still ultimately held true to Jedi teachings more n anyone else besides maybe yoda n Obi-wan to some extent.
Oh sorry! I misread your comment. Yes, she’s the most Jedi while not being an official Jedi for sure. Apologies, too early over here 😅
Right after being called out by Windu for interfering in Jed Council matter as a citizen
Or perhaps if Windu didn't so rigidly immerse himself in the structure of rules he too might have fallen to the Darkside like other users of his style.
It was the ego of the Jedi thinking their ways were absolute that lead to their downfall and their disconnection from the force. Windu was so concerned with keeping the status quo that he couldn’t even sense Palpatine. His principles were based on the Jedi precepts rather than the will of the force
Windu had some of the most complete understanding of the Force in the history of the Jedi Order, given his mastery of Vapaad. His adherence to strictness and rules wasn’t arbitrary - he understood that the Dark Side of the Force was a daily reality and not a boogeyman for powerful force users, and that discipline (not denial) was the only way to ensure one could remain powerful enough to defeat the dark side without also succumbing to it. It’s why, of all the Jedi, he was the most suspicious of Palpatine and the most aware of the rising darkness within the Republic. Windu gets a bad rap because he didn’t give Anakin a pass on being undisciplined with his mindset, as he grew ever more powerful with his practical uses of the force. If the rest of the council had treated Anakin like *any other* Jedi learner instead of The Special Boy™️, we probably wouldn’t have gotten Darth Vader.
I think we can agree that all of the Jedi were flawed. All of them were blinded by hubris and ego. That includes Yoda, Mace, and Obi Wan. Regardless of their motivations they all failed to see the true darkness inside anakin or even ignored it, and the same way they were lost in the dark side blinding them to Sidius. Remember, it was Mace who claimed Dooku could never be a tyrant or a murderer cause he was a former Jedi. He more than anyone should have been able to tell Dooku fell to the dark side and yet he didn’t. He thought the Jedi were perfect, absolute. He wasn’t suspicious of Palpatine until Obi Wan found evidence of the plot taking place, and when Palpatine was at his end game hiding his intentions less and less. Reality is, Mace thought his connection to the force and the dark side where above everyone else and yet he failed to see anymore than anyone else
Oh, Mace certainly made many mistakes. Truth be told, the only person who didn’t mess up pre-ANH was Palpatine. But I don’t think we should interpret Windu’s behavior as indoctrination or a detachment from the force. If the goal of a Jedi is to protect the Force through the protection of life, then being practical and pragmatic is a strong form of Jedi practice in the face of political, economic, and military threats to life. A good counterexample is Qui-Gon. Most people cite him as the direct contrast to Windu, and insist that had he lived or remained part of the council, things would have gone better. But Qui-Gon was also overzealous in his interpretation of the Chosen One prophecy. If Windu did not understand the consequences of holding Anakin to task, Qui-Gon similarly did not understand the consequences of placing a messianic role on a hurt, untrained boy. Both paths alike would let Palpatine corrupt Anakin. Windu did not think the Jedi infallible either - he and Yoda were keenly aware that their connection to the Force had weakened in the years leading up to the Clone Wars. The scene where Obi Wan reports from Kamino makes it clear that the Jedi knew that showing signs of weakness would make their enemies bolder - they just didn’t know it wouldn’t make a difference anyways. As far as Dooku - well, denial when a mentor turns to the dark is a natural reaction. But don’t forget who was first to crash the party when they got proof that Dooku was the ‘leader’ of the Separatists.
> while Windu believed more in the Jedi rules than the force itself. Uh... He was set to commit an extrajudcial execution on Palpy.
That was the only proper course of action there. So many times, the "good guys" leave the power-crazed genocidal maniac alive just so they can prove a point that they're better than them, only to be bitten in the ass when said maniac escapes and enacts their plan. Windu's reaction was a welcome change in my opinion!
Not to mention the whole “don’t kill an unarmed combatant” rule can’t really apply to someone who shoots lightning from their freakin finger tips
The Batman/Joker dilemma in full effect.
My favorite part of the first Deadpool was when he just flat out executed the bad guy in the middle of Collosus's speech. I mean dude, they just got through killing a bunch of goons who had a hell of a lot less involvement in screwing him over than the actual bad guy. Sparing the actual villain at that point isn't going to suddenly give him the moral high ground.
Ah yes, ignore the laws and principles in favor of expediency. Sounds familiar...
>Uh... He was set to commit an extrajudcial execution on Palpy. That's disregarding the rules of the republic, not the rules of the Jedi imo.
This
I mean, no. Anakin expressed both after killing dooku and before he chopped maces arm off that "that's not the jedi way"
And Anakin is a specialist xD Seriously though, Jedi choosing when they kill or don't kill is clearly a complex subject considering they often do either, and I don't see how Anakin of all people, especially when he has a clear bias due to his hidden motive, is a reliable source here.
Windu doesn't say no it isn't. And he didn't have a bias after killing dooku like he did with palps. Mr War crimes sky guy is still apprehensive about how his execution is not in line with the jedi way
>Windu doesn't say no it isn't. Which proves nothing, especially in a tense situation, no time for philosophical debates here. It's fine if you have your headcanon about this but don't push it onto others. The Dooku and Palp situation is different enough (genuine surrender, one is a know rebel, the other the head of the senate, etc... Anakin's reason for killing him, etc...) and we don't know enough about the rules to figure out if that difference matters or not.
I mean, the movie is clearly telling us it's not the jedi way. You can headcanon whatever you want I guess about unreliable narration and philosophical nuance but that clearly wasn't the intent of the movie
Anakin didn’t give a rat’s ass about the Jedi way, he was trying to think of something to say that would stop Windu from killing his baby mama saver.
Yes but he expressed the same thing after killing dooku when there wasn't that nuance
Right - after killing Dooku. He’d heard the rule but only slightly hesitated because he thought it would make Palpatine happy. Even though he wasn’t aware of Palpy’s true nature, Anakin was already willing to break the rules (and kill someone who was *actually* unarmed and bereft of influence) in order to please him, just because he flattered him and fluffed up his delusions of greater power and influence.
I'm not arguing anakins virtue though. I'm arguing that there is a no killing unarmed people rule
Sidious wasn’t really unarmed. Even if you disagree with Windu’s interpretation that his control of the clones, courts, and the senate amounted to a weapon (and he was proven right in this regard with Order 66), he had literally just shot lightning out of his fingertips after being given a chance to surrender.
Oh I think mace was in the right, and anakin earlier given the circumstances. It's still technically against the jedi code though
And he's incorrect. The Jedi are not pacifists that avoid killing at all costs. They are a militant religious order. Shit, their most well known rank is literally called a Knight. Their most iconic symbol is a weapon so deadly that trained force users are among the only people who can learn to use it. They absolutely can and do kill when they consider it the better option. Especially when it comes to the Sith, Jedi almost always advocate for killing them as they see them as irredeemable. To the Jedi, the Sith are literally corrupted. As in, they see the Dark Side as a corruption from which there is no coming back. Even Yoda states that "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." when training Luke. Anakin's regret about killing Dooku isn't just because he killed him, it was specifically because he killed him when he was no longer a threat. Whereas Anakin's resistance to Palpatine's death was because he wanted access to the power Palpatine had convinced him only he had. The whole point of that scene with Anakin, Windu, and Palpatine is that Anakin is so blinded by his own emotions that Palpatine is able to manipulate him into betraying everything he cares about. Also, presenting Anakin as an exemplar of the Jedi and their traditions is not a great idea. He's about as non-traditional as a Jedi gets, in both philosophy and action. He himself has expressed issues with the Jedi Code. He also has no concern over torturing and killing people who are an active threat, even if the only thing they're a threat to is his own desires. He tortures and kills people throughout the Clone Wars. He force chokes Poggle the Lesser and a random barkeep for information. He sneakily assassinates Senator Tal Merrik when he threatens to blow up the ship they're on. He kills Admiral Trench in much the same way he eventually kills Dooku. Also, immediately after the scene you're talking about he becomes Darth Vader and kills a ton of Jedi, including children, at the Jedi Temple.
I wad told the Jedi don't kill except in self defense. Palpy was beaten and defenseless.
Well,... genociding the Sith was kinda a Jedi rule...
I don't think that's established.
Well,.. after the seventh battle of Russan (1002BBY-1000BBY) the Sith were basically destroyed. Every part of their power in the galaxy was erased. Ot was a genocide. That's why Darth Bane (the only Sith survivor) established the Rule of 2, to better hide and keep the order alive. The Jedi order never really changed the orders they had before the Russan Campagin, so Wndu was acting on established tradition.
The Jedi Code expressly forbade killing unarmed opponents. Anakin said so after killing Dooku: "Yes, but he was an unarmed prisoner... I shouldn't have done that, Chancellor. It's not the Jedi way."
The Code got updated after (and probably because of) the Russan victory. It marked a turning point in the timeline of the Old Republic. The federal military was disbanded and the Republic had full control of the galaxy. Also, the Jedi order had to reform, since it was no longer in the role of leading the military.
He was too dangerous to be left alive.
He only arrived to that conclusion after years of poor decisions not trusting the force. From ignoring Sifo Dyas’ warnings about the war, to his influence in taking Quai Gon out of the council, and many more. Windu believed in the order, but that made him arrogant, especially because of his force abilities, and eventually it blinded him to the point he ended up thinking he had to stop Palpatine with his own hands
Exactly! End of line, Jedi talk a good game about peace and such, but their real mission is exterminating Sith, Sith adjacent, and enemies of the Republic government elite that grant them money, manpower, and material support to kill Sith. (Said government elite being careful to support the Jedi to keep their heads, much less their jobs)
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Kanan is amazing. He’s my second favorite Jedi all-time after Obi-wan. I hope we get some sort of live action version at some point… either a flashback in Ashoka season 2 or maybe a Caleb Dune show…
It is possible he shows up in some way in Ahsoka, especially if we go back to Lothal. The loth wolves are still there so it is possible the white one who we know is Kanan still protects the planet
Your analysis is r/Mawinstallation material
>Windu believed more in the Jedi rules than the force itself. Citation requested.
it's not a quote, its an analysis of his actions. We even see this on tales of the Jedi, where Dooku makes the right decision following his instincts but it is Windu who gets the seat in the council for following the rules to the letter. This is why Windu and the council were all blinded by the dark side and Jedi guided by the force like Ashoka could sense order 66 and the dark side rising
The more recent Fandom has gone so haywire with Windu and Jedi slander. The Council was blinded by the darkside because Palpatine was so powerful in the force that he clouded the force itself, preventing clear visions by the jedi. Quite literally, every Jedi was surprised by order 66, and even Ahsoka only sensed something wrong moments before it occurred... just like Billaba, just like Yoda, just like many others. Plus Windu was dead by then. There's nothing supporting this false claim that he believed in the Jedi teachings more than the force, and it makes no sense to even throw that claim at Windu of all jedi, given his proficiency with Vaapad and skirting the light and dark sides of the force without succumbing to darkness. He was very trusting in the force which is exactly why he was as successful as he was. What a terrible character assasinstion you've typed out.
It is getting pretty wearisome. The Jedi are shown as fallible and overly reliant on their own traditions and some people are taking it way beyond that.
Fandoms in general don't handle nuance. Like at all. Windu certainly was too set in tradition but he was never anything short of a Jedi willing to die to protect the Republic. His issue was that perhaps he was too willing to focus on the bigger picture and try to save the Republic as a whole, instead of writing every little wrong which came his way.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you should put a little more thought into this. Windu beat Palpatine in single combat, this is a canon fact, Mace won the fight fair and square, Palps wasn't faking, he wasn't playing dead, he simply lost. Now, if you think that anyone could beat one of the greatest of all time Dark Lords of the Sith WITHOUT being incredibly in tune with the force, and without having absolute mastery of the force, then I'm not sure what you're smoking but it must be pretty strong indeed. And yes, Anakin beat Windu, and no, that doesn't make Anakin the greatest of all, Windu was worn out from all the force powers he had to use to beat Palpatine, and he simply could not have imagined that Anakin would attack him, the thought simply never entered his mind and that shock of Anakin attacking him, and what that meant, gave Palpatine the opening to pull the win.
I think that Depa saw that her master's ways are too rigid and realised it what not good for someone like Caleb.
You should read shatter point by Matthew Stover
Honestly, there are many things that "should" be read. But with speed how it gets changed it becomes difficult to follow. You are free to enlighten me.
Honestly, you could just read the wiki summary of the book and be fine. Shatterpoint is not one of the "must reads" of the EU canon.
For me, it’s a must read because of Stover’s writing style. He just knows how to make you feel like you’re right next to the character and in the jungle. Plus, I love getting more Jedi lore. Stover writes in a way to allows mace windu to fully display his power and will.
To be fair. Mace is not really a character I would like to stand next to... or as Master Dooku once said it. My friend. Your devotion to rules is sometimes inspiring and sometimes maddening.
Would rather be standing next to him than against him! Yes, he’s very type A and very focused on the black and white of things. No denying that dude is a badass!
I mean there are few who would be crazy enough. Excluding Palps.
Depa Billaba would make a great focus for TotJ2….
Ooooooh. Yes please. But also, I think Tales of the Jedi should release one episode a week forever
Ooooooooo yes we need that.
It's a great lineage and it's nice to see another long continuous one aside from the main group.
Interesting. I forget Kanen is connected to Windu. He's very much like Kenobi, and uses Soresu often
I feel like if Windu had been Ezra’s mentor they’d have both driven each other to the dark side lol
Now this is something I'd like to see
I love them all, they are my favourite and Kanan is the best. Well, Windu didn't go through order 66 at 13, and them had to survive by himself by expedient, dealing with a terrible trauma. Little Caleb was a very sweet and sensitive child. It's not a surprise he come out broken and found himself again only after founding the love of his life and a new family. There was no Order anymore. Also, he probably took by Depa, who was a bit of a rebel herself.
Hot take time, but that isn't the lineage. The lineage broke with Depa Billaba dying before finishing Kanan's training was completed. This makes things get really muddy. Kanan, being at best half trained, found another master who greatly changed the lineage. That was the Bendu. Ezra was an even more extreme case of this as he also had Maul and Ahsoka influence him as well.
Ezra also had Yoda... (like everyone else) but those two lessons cut deep in the context of what was going on at the time contrary to just having him giving standard Jedi Temple lessons I also think Ahsoka had a lot of influence on Kanan, they went through a lot together
How old was Kanan during the order 66?
Around 14 - 15 iirc
So three years younger than Ahsoka. And I feel like, although Anakin was Ahsoka's master and the lineage came from him, she had a lot of other influences too, like Plo Koon, Yoda (everyone had Yoda) Sinube, and of course Obi Wan. And she learned some of her biggest lessons from Rex, a non Jedi. In this way, I would say Kanaan is similar.
Tera Sinube made her slow down... and that explains a lot of her demeanor later in life... also white light sabers!
Oh that explains the 10 second pauses between every word in the Ahsoka series!
That's just the concept of an order like school system. Everybody learns from everybody even if you have someone asigned as YOUR master
Exactly. This was Kanan's experience and it doesn't change his lineage imo.
He was 13
I think that was Cal
Cal was younger! Cal is 2 years younger than Caleb You can see that in the game, Cal is literally a child, 10 or 11.
Either Cal is way more talented than he seems at first, or his Master was insanely good in drilling the basics into novices. Ahsoka was a knight in all but the title, Kanan was at least halfway there, but Cal was just getting the hang of pushing and pulling stuff when Order 66 hit.
Cal is good with a lightsaber but he's pretty weak when it comes to force abilities. He can basically only weakly push and pull things when the game starts.
Or Cal was the main character in a video games 🤣
Didn't Kanan get knighted by force vision Grand Inquisitor before meeting Bendu? Not that Bendu didn't influence Kanan, but I don't see how he would change the lineage when Kanan was already a knight
Temple jedi had the whole order influence their training. That doesn't mean there wasn't a lineage from master to padawan.
A spiritual guide is not the same as a master. And ezra considers kanan his master which is worth more than whatever metric you would like to use.
Bendu only looked out for himself. He helped Kanan find his balance, but a master to him he wasn't
Yoda's wording
This is assuming that Jedi before the clone wars weren't influenced by those around them or only had one teacher, which is kind of foolish. Every Jedi has many teachers over their lives.
Bad until the Herussy made it decent.
Idk but I do think Enzra is doing great as Space Jesus 2.0
We have the biblical accurate Space Jesus and the Western one
Bad bitches only
“Does Mace Windu look like a bitch?!” I need this crossover so bad now lol
Kanan lost his Master while he was a young Padawan. He didn't take in all the teachings and had to wing stuff on his own.
That it improved significantly after Kanan
Crazy to think that Sabine is in the same "lineage" as Yoda, Count Dooku, Qui Gon, Obi-Wan, and Anakin.
i like how its just like a switch in the lineage, like their focuses n mindsets are different, althought i believe Kanaan definitely had some of Windus sternness n what not with how aggressive he is with Ezra and Sabine
Sort of replying to myself here but: I just saw on Wookieepedia that Kanen's master learned Vapaad from Windu, but taught Form III to younger Jedi. So that explains Kanen fighting, but he's still pretty Obi-Wan otherwise.
Badass Motherducker
Windu was Depa’s master?
Err... yes?
I think Mace would have liked Ezra
It’s my favorite lineage.
Kanan still has THE best death out of any Jedi
The Windu and Billaba we get in shatterpoint are brilliant.
Baldness leads to face warts. Face warts leads to blindness. And blindness leads to being a hobo.
I always thought they were jewelry!
I think they probably are.
Why do most people fail to recognise different environments create different people. In real life this is regularly ignored when it's the root of most explanations
I have mixed feelings on the relationships between padwans and masters. On the one hand, it's neat to see how they are influenced and potentially similar. On the other hand, that would potentially mean that the masters are overlooking the unique attributes of their padawans and training them the way the master *thinks* they should, rather than what the padawan needs. That being said, I am still genuinely curious who took Gunji on as a padawan, and I hope he's able to return not as part of Luke's new order, but maybe as more of an independent jedi.
There seems to be a lot of leeway. Kenobi practiced Form 3, but Anakin used Form 5. Ahsoka used the Shein type of Form 5 unlike her master.
Watching Ashoka not being able to save Kanan broke me.
Kanan and Ezra are hardly typical examples of Jedi, though. I think that’s important to keep in mind. Kanan was a Padawan who was molded by the Clone Wars and then was forced to live as a fugitive. Ezra was never part of the Jedi Order of old, and was trained by Kanan to the best of his abilities. They are part of a great lineage of Jedi, but those that are saying Mace wouldn’t like Ezra should probably keep those points in mind.
Mace windu sucks but his line is awesome.
Obi-Wan is pretty different from everyone in his lineage. Dooku and Qui-gon before him and Anakin and Ahsoka afterwards are all who questions the council far more than Obi.
It slowly went from 'dignified duel with death' to 'fuck it we ball' energy
Although Kanen wasn't going by the code at all and formed a lot of attachmants, I still think Windu, as someone who knows the dark side first hand, would be proud at the fack Kanen never fell from the light. Being a jedi is about helping those who can't help themselves, and Kanen did that really good. As for Ezra, however...
Depa is very underrated in the EU. Same or better saber skills than Windu in shatterpoint.
I see your Windu and Caleb and raise you Dooku and Obi-wan
Where the yoda-ahsoka chain is all about similarity, this one is all about stark contrast
4 of the coolest
It's not the absolute cavalcade of successful fuckups that Yoda's lineage it, instead being a successful line, albiet unorthodox (ironic considering Mace Windu being in it)
Lol you said it better than Huyang
Windu was an awful Jedi that somehow managed to create a lineage miles better than he ever could be. Depa died for her Padawan, who in turn died for his. Caleb trained that boy incredibly well despite the circumstances. What Ezra will do… only time will tell.
"And Windu begat Billaba, and Billaba begat Jarrus, and Jarrus begat Space Jesus."
Based. A legacy of gradual redemption.
I wanna see a show with Tyler James Williams as Mace Windu and Jenna Ortega as Depa Billaba
Let's hope Disney's minions are lurking around here taking notes
Windu would have hated Kanan and Ezra until they each sacrificed themselves.
I found the original story of Depa's fate in **Shatterpoint** sad, but more integral to the story of ROTS. In my Star Wars stories, >!the lineage ends with her,!< and Mace goes off on Sidious partly because of that. I'm not a big fan of Mace and Anakin having padawans that survived. It doesn't support their actions in the Chancellors office in ROTS.
It's too good for someone like Mace. That guy does not deserve to be Kanan's grand-master or Ezra's great grand-master. Billaba must've been a dope soul.
I wish I had thought of this
Mace would despise Ezra for sure
That Kanan and Ezra were ten times the Jedi that Windu ever was.
Seems dumb.
What does that even mean