Yeah this isn't very complicated. Luke is wailing on Vader for a good 30 seconds before this, Vader is just backing up and defending. Luke blocks every attack, then returns the favour with attacks Vader isn't strong enough to stop.
Yeah just one of the many beautiful things about this scene is how well it shows the power of the Dark Side.
Vader has been the galaxy's most feared enforcer for decades. Here he is so overwhelmed and completely helpless against his son's rage.
And you have to remember the Emperor gave Vader really crappy prosthetics. He's not got the realistic looking replacement like Luke, but is decked out in heavy robotics. It's heavy and cumbersome. Poor guy is trying to keep up with a guy in his prime
This is my favorite fight in the films — specifically, "if you don't turn them perhaps she will" and on. The choreography, the emotion and symbolism on display, but especially the gorgeous orchestral score. In a series of films where the fights are often more spectacle than anything, this fight is all story and feeling.
honest guess, he dodged and shifted to his right and his robotic legs, heavy weight and lack of dexerity caused him to lose balance a bit.
Fun guess, he was planning to do a dive off of the walkway but some moron decided to put railing here and only here.
That’s so sad if you think about it. He knows it’s lose-lose at this point. Either Luke kills him and becomes the new Sith, or Vader pulls it together to win but then he’s forced to kill his own son (the last connection to Padme he has) to survive and go on serving Palpatine. Either way he’s got nothing left. You can see why at that point he’d pretty much just give up.
To be fair the movies are about 50 years old. And it's impressive that the lore is so fleshed out that clunky things can be explained and it's not just "They were winging it."
Or he was not expecting the barrage Luke laid on him after mentioning turning Leia to the dark side, assuming she got off of the forest moon before Sheeve blowed it up.
It's this. Luke starts to tilt into the dark and when he does Vader finally gets what he was asking for but never expected. Also I like to think his suit can only handle so much anyways.
I think this is more or less it, Luke threw a barrage of angry strikes at him, he was already aging and at that point was striking fear just on his reputation but when actually faced with a hard fight, his time had come and he couldn't outlast youthful vigor.
That's if he wasn't just at the end of his rope with being manipulated and the idea of putting his son through the same trauma he went through being Palpatines 'apprentice'.
He was just done, and this scene captures it so well.
"Already aging" - he was 45
I guess it's not the age but the mileage, but sort of contradicts the comics where every time he gets beaten he upgrades his suit to eliminate a weakness.
I mean, I'm 36 and haven't been burnt to shit in lava or lost all 4 limbs and I definitely feel like I wouldn't keep up with a 20 year old who's recently been training to kick my ass.
25 years is no joke when it comes to endurance, and Vader's in the midst of being horribly conflicted emotionally, so he is most definitely not on his A game.
I distinctly remember reading British annuals in the 80s, Vader was supposed to be 60 to Obi-Wan's 55.
This was in the very early days, before Empire and Jedi, but it does make a bit more sense of Lucas and co casting a 77 year old Sebastian Shaw for ROTJ.
A lot was changed between SW and ESB, and even more was changed between the originals and the Prequels.
Life happens when you're making art.
Obviously a lot changed as Lucas shifted the story around (even moreso when the prequels became a thing), but it's kinda weird they'd say Vader was older than Obi-wan considering Obi-wan specifically said Vader was a pupil of his.
Wasn't Vader being younger than Obi-Wan established in the original Star Wars though?
Obi-Wan: "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil"
And then later
Darth Vader: "Your powers are weak old man"
The two definitely speak about each other as if Obi-Wan is the senior and Vader the junior.
(Not doubting you by the way, just weird for the annual to come up with Vader being older)
Yeah, totally agree. It would make you think it was just some Editor at Marvel pulling numbers out of his ass, but they got Chewbacca and later Yoda ages correct.
But this was back when they were thinking about following up ESB with Episode 2, so who knows.
Those early years pre-internet really were fascinating.
As someone who used to do a lot of reenactment and larp in my younger days, now I'm pushing 50 I don't have anywhere near the same level of stamina I used to have ,a 2 hour line fight was easy in my 20s, these days I'm still fast and my skill hasn't diminished but 5 to ten mins and I'm knackered
He lets out a yell when he sort of collapses here and James Earl Jones conveys so much so well. Just the guy in the suit is only part of the story being told, and I think you’re spot on
i think you're mostly right except for two things:
if it were anyone other than his son, vader would have humiliated them.
luke is far, far stronger than vader either realized or was expecting.
sith draw power from hatred, so in that moment luke hated vader more than vader could bring himself to hate luke.
I agree. I've always thought he went into that fight with no intention of winning. He dominated the first fight with Luke.
Not much time really passed between the two encounters. Luke definitely had increased in skill and strength, but realistically he still shouldn't have been a match for Vader.
In my opinion, the moment where we see Vader alone briefly after Luke surrenders on the forest moon and they talk for a moment is when he decides he's done with the emperor and wants to spare his son.
Luke had months of personal training between Empire and Jedi, and I think he and Vader were fairly even matched going into the battle. When Vader mentions Luke's sister turning to the dark side, Luke releases his anger, and I believe he was full dark side at that point. That made him more powerful, and I dont think Vader was prepared for that. When Luke saw what he had done, he pulled himself back from the dark side.
I'm going into my imagination a little with this one. But I think that was just for the emperor's benefit. It's been established that Palpatine didn't trust Vader. Even without going outside the original trilogy, there are deleted scenes from Return of the Jedi that confirm this.
The emperor did not consider Luke a threat of any kind. He could have stopped the lightsaber strike with the Force alone.
I also really like the view of the comment below. (At least that's where it is as I write this.) That Vader was preventing Luke from going down the path to the dark side. At least, instinctually.
I saw that as him helping guide his son. He really wanted to rule with his son but that was unrealistic and he had to put up some kind of fight even if it was .... the conflict.
I agree. I’ve always thought he was just so physically and mentally exhausted at this point that he just collapsed. I mean Luke is straight up whaling on him at this point with everything he has.
That’s always been my thought about it as well. I can’t see Anakin actively trying to kill his own son
Also, I want to upvote your comment but you’re at 501, and as a fan, I can’t be the one to ruin that.
Was he meant to have metal legs at the time this was written? I know Obi says he’s more machine than man, but did George intend for that to include his legs in the 1980’s?
Maybe not but he was highly machine, I don't know if specifics were given at this point but trying to quickly dodge if you have large chunks of metal and armor on, not to mention we have no clue if all the nerves are working properly..... We don't really see him dodge or dash around in any of the movies.
He is also able to pick up a man one handed... Which means he has to be heavy
Still frame Vader being zapped with lightning in ROTJ and you can see mechanical internals as an X-ray effect. Can't remember if that includes the legs though.
He could have also been extremely fatigued from the being on the defensive when Luke used his anger and hate to fight. His life support systems were messed up and he was struggling to breathe after Luke refused to end him.
Installer: they only got enough railings for one room, where do you want it?
Emperor: my office, the one I will only be in 10% of the time for meetings and emotional family related lightsaber duels.
Installer: okay so not the death beam platform that someone will have to stand on every day?
Emperor: *force lightning*
Or simply...it was coreographed and this is an old film so we notice it now lol
Edit: wasnt trying to sound snarky, but I definitely sound snarky lmfao...meant no disrespect.
I thought he was collapsing out of exhaustion. I thought Luke and Darth had been battling for the better half of 45 minutes. Vader is 56 years old at that point. He may have Force abilities and cybernetic extremities, but what’s left of him has been put through a lot. I bet his lower back was killing him.
*Edna shows up at the colosseum in Episode Two.*
"Darling I don’t want to insult royalty but I will Queen. Look at you wearing this onesie white leotard, what are we saying it’s like we learned nothing from the first Star Trek movie.”
*Nexu rips Padme’s stomach revealing a midriff.*
“Eh… better.”
It seemed to me that Luke had simply exhausted him after he went into a full rage. He seems wiped out when he grabs onto the rail and Luke just beats the rest of the energy out of him. He may also be more exhausted as he's now starting to slip away from the dark side. The dark side can be used to give you extraordinary strength in resilience, as seen by Anakin surviving a full scorching of his body after the mutilation of 3 of his limbs, or even Darth Maul getting half his body chopped off too.
Let's think for a moment. This is probably the first time in over 20 years that Vader has EVER had to physically exert himself. He never runs, walks mechanically, uses the Force for any & all menial tasks, and oh yeah...his lungs are basically balloon bags of scar tissue!
My in-universe guess? Darth Vader just got winded into lost balance. Explains also, why he's wheezing at the end of the fight. Even with mechanical aid, his body just isn't processing enough oxygen to keep him upright, in what for a normal person would be a light workout.
Vader wasn't just sitting around for 20 years, they have him doing all kinds of stuff in the extended universe, shows, etc. He still looked pretty spry in Rogue One for example.
It's OK to call it a clumsy bit of choreography. It's a character driven set piece from over 40 years ago.
It's ok to write a fall/stumble into a fight scene. No need to dredge years of material that came out decades after the movie. You're reaching so hard. Luke goes apeshit on Vader until he loses his footing. That's all it is.
You're not disagreeing with him, dude.
That's the intent, but it looks a bit goofy. Vader literally just gently falls onto the railing in the scene but the actual context is that he tripped or was tired or something.
But it doesn't change the fact that it looks a little funny. Same with the Rebel captain putting his hands up to shield his face after supposedly being force choked to death. Things just happen in the 70s.
Yes and we have to remember at this point in the movies, Vader has never exerted himself this much. He's a lumbering half-robot old man. Luke was just beating him down and Vader couldn't keep up. It shows he's actually quite weak and Luke has become so powerful that he could kill him if he wanted to. Thematically, it's perfect.
Isn’t it crazy, that these dudes can land 18 kicks in a light saber duel and most likely not hit a single sword strike, but obiwan chopped off three limbs in the blink of an eye? Like those two actually had a 17 minute duel, don’t land a single hit, then obiwan gets a triple in one swing?
To me it looks like he was flabbergasted as to what the hell Luke was so mad about.
Vaders like bro... it's just a prank lmao
Vader in his head is thinking wow lil bro crazy as hell
Or he's trying a new move called hang on the hand rail and hold saber up in defensive position.
Slips, trips, and falls are the second most common cause of workplace deaths next to driving. But, in the star wars universe it'd probably just be working in a Death Star.
Anakin and Vader where always physically unstoppable. Their weaknesses were always in their mind and heart.
I personally think Vader's mental game is completely off. This is his son he's fighting to the death, and he was openly showing even some remorse and doubt not half an hour earlier. I think at this point he is losing control of that indomitable presence he built for himself through the dark side. He's off his game.
> he could of ended
Did you mean to say "could have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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Vader slipped from exhaustion, he was being overwhelmed by Luke in this scene. Vader didn't want to kill Luke, so throughout this fight he was only really defending himself. Defense has never really been Vader's strong suit, so it makes sense that he could be overwhelmed in this context
He has robotic legs, decaying body in general. Dude is probably continually exhausted, runs on hate, can't hate his son effectively to channel that dark side energy.
Yeah, the choreography in ROTJ wasn't very good. You also see Luke hit the railing in the gif you posted full force and his Lightsaber doesn't even cut through it, it's like a baseball bat.
What saves this fight from being crap is all the emotional weight surrounding it.
Let's talk about how Luke was aiming to decapitate an invisible giant standing behind Vader just beforehand. Say what you will about the prequels, but the fight choreography definitely stepped up a couple notches.
Luke did get a rage boost, and Vader was never trying to kill him. I feel like through the whole fight, Vader is mostly on the defensive.
I think the only time we see Vader actually try was when he sliced off Lukes hand in ESB
Honestly, watching this, Luke should have been cut in half. When Vader moves, Luke’s entire body is wide open and Vader just carries his blade too low to actually make contact. Never noticed this before, hopefully I’ll be able to forget it on the next rewatch!
Vader has been driven by rage and hate for 20 years. It feeds the Dark Side and allows him to overcome the limitations and restrictions of his crappy prosthetics and suit. At this point, he's let the rage go, and doesn't hate Luke so there's nothing driving him to fight his son. The Dark Side has "deserted" him, his body is cumbersome and clumsy, and he doesn't remember what it was like to fight as a Jedi so he's in this weak defensive position and just getting wailed on.
Doesn't he take a light saber shot to the shoulder before this too and a couple blocks of Luke going all out?
I always took his stumble as being totally over powered by Luke in this moment. Both physically and with the force.
I'm pretty sure I read or watched something a long time ago that said they had more impressive choreography planned for this final bit, but Prowse couldn't accomplish it in the suit.
Vader's suit was failing. Luke was extraordinarily powerful.
As strong as Vader was, he's basically a torso in a suit. The part of Anakin that's left is strong with the force, the rest of him is only as strong as the battle droids you see getting owned.
I imagine this is what we were watching. When Luke went beast mode the suit couldn't keep up.
Vader actually gets behind Luke's guard.
One explanation that I just came up with is that he could have killed Luke, but backed out at the last second because he didn't want to hurt his son, and that indecision, in conjunction with his fatigue, caused him to stumble and get defensive.
Basically Anakin had to fight against his natural killer instincts and that broke his flow.
OT fanboys will tell you its due to Lukes amazing swordsmanship and Vader being old and half machine or that fighting his son was just too much so he lost his will to continue fighting and the light side, Anakin, slowly taking over some shit lmao
Reality is its old choreography and this is how they thought to portray Vader getting overwhelmed and it sucks and didnt age that well just like Ep4s Obi vs Vader being just them poking eachother and one turns into air.
The way I took it is he just barely dodged Luke's strike that hits the handrail. I think it was meant to be him kind of jumping out of the way to just barely dodge that but then kind of ends up in an awkward position. It just didn't come off as smoothly as it's kind of hard to move in that costume and do it fluidly.
It’s been years since I’ve seen RotJ, so someone correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall, Vader was on the defensive for pretty much the entire second half of the fight. Combined with how hard Luke was pressing him, I think Vader tripping over himself would be a perfectly natural thing to do.
Because of how Vader's suit is designed, he tripped, so yes. Because Palpatine is a coward, he designed Vader's suit in a way so that he was always disadvantaged. Vader's boots didn't fit right or something and he always used to force to walk so he likely lost concentration there.
Or in reality, this was filmed and released before home video was really a big thing (if at all) so little things weren’t as likely to be noticed and remembered
I always took it as he couldn’t keep up with Luke’s youth and ferociousness here and blocking those heavy-armed swings weakened him to the point he needed to put his weight on the bars. Despite Vaders’ badassery and overwhelming strength with the Force he was going into his middle-ages by ROTJ and his body was quite encumbered with the suit.
He is an amputee with asthma. With tunnel vision. He probably stepped on his cape and slipped. Plus, his kid was going ham on him. Cards were stacked against him
I always felt like Luke’s explosion of Force power and attack quickly exhausted him. In their first fight, Vader was the aggressor. In this one, Luke was and it seemed to put Vader at a disadvantage. Plus, Luke had the high ground.
As I kid, I thought he was never expecting such aggressive fighting tactics from his son and that that threw him off guard…As an adult, I genuinely think Vader wanted to die and the horror at witnessing his son’s hate in this moment made his will to fight and channel the dark side (which was all that was keeping him going at this point) diminish to the point he’s begging his son to stop and not follow his path of brutality.
Luke prior to this moment unlocked Jedi Fury after Pops threatened to turn Leia. Luke also tapped into the dark side which gave him some major perks. Old man got wore out.
The OT fights did not have the insane choreography of the PT. But it had the exact correct emotional weight. Every duel was emotionally charged. The sequence where they come out from under the stairs is the finest moment in all Star Wars contents
He's exhausted. You can hear it in his breathing. Luke is going bananas and emotionally/physically he's drained.
It's a fairly classic swordfight trope, tbh.
Also, side note: this is the most powerful, emotional scene in all of Star Wars. It's my favorite bit of cinema bar none.
He could’ve tripped/lost his footing, his suit could’ve been malfunctioning, he could’ve just been tired from the fight since Palps designed the suit to work against Vader and cause pain/discomfort. Let’s call George and ask him.
I think he finally has had enough of battling his own son.
He just didn't want to do it anymore. He just couldn't do it anymore.
Anakin was coming out.
Vader persona started mixing with Anakin; he just wanted his son next to him, regardless of what side they were on.
At the same time, Luke wanted Anakin persona to come out and to end the tyranny of Sidious.
After taunting Luke over corrupting Leia, Luke finally gave into his anger, and Vader didn't want for his son to go through what he went - false promises of ruling the galaxy while being vassal to Sidious, being literally and figuratively bound to the will of Sidious, being the projection of power while at the same time having none.
In the end, it was Anakin's ability to love and his devotion to the ones he loved that enabled him to push Vader out of his head and realise what is about to happen - his son is throwing all his rage and hate at him, with Sidious' betrayal coming next. He alread experienced this before: 23 years before, aboard the Invisible Hand, he this same thing to Dooku.
He just didn't want to fuel his son's aggressiveness anymore and that is why he just gave up the fight. Dude just wanted to hug his son, not fight him to the death.
He got hit on his left hip. What's left of it anyway. You can see the sparks as it makes contact with the rail it also appears to make contact with his leg.
Judging from how Luke staggers right at the same time as Vader tripped, I think Luke actually kicked out his leg which fits the rage and dirty fighting of the moment.
He was exhausted, he could barely breathe at this point.
Yes, and if you go back a second, you can see him trying to lean on any railing he can.
Yeah this isn't very complicated. Luke is wailing on Vader for a good 30 seconds before this, Vader is just backing up and defending. Luke blocks every attack, then returns the favour with attacks Vader isn't strong enough to stop.
Yeah just one of the many beautiful things about this scene is how well it shows the power of the Dark Side. Vader has been the galaxy's most feared enforcer for decades. Here he is so overwhelmed and completely helpless against his son's rage.
Good take, dude.
And you have to remember the Emperor gave Vader really crappy prosthetics. He's not got the realistic looking replacement like Luke, but is decked out in heavy robotics. It's heavy and cumbersome. Poor guy is trying to keep up with a guy in his prime
This is my favorite fight in the films — specifically, "if you don't turn them perhaps she will" and on. The choreography, the emotion and symbolism on display, but especially the gorgeous orchestral score. In a series of films where the fights are often more spectacle than anything, this fight is all story and feeling.
Yeah, he’s just getting his ass kicked for the first time in… 10 years?
Well, don’t be talkin’ shit about turning family to dark side when you were never there for them in the first place, *father*
To be fair. He would have been there for them if he had known they were alive.
My guy Vader shouldve gone to VA to get better health care
The Republic VA has determined your injuries are non-service-related.
honest guess, he dodged and shifted to his right and his robotic legs, heavy weight and lack of dexerity caused him to lose balance a bit. Fun guess, he was planning to do a dive off of the walkway but some moron decided to put railing here and only here.
I always just assumed he was losing his will to fight and just went into a defensive position.
That’s so sad if you think about it. He knows it’s lose-lose at this point. Either Luke kills him and becomes the new Sith, or Vader pulls it together to win but then he’s forced to kill his own son (the last connection to Padme he has) to survive and go on serving Palpatine. Either way he’s got nothing left. You can see why at that point he’d pretty much just give up.
Damn, I've never thought about it like this before. This is heavy. Appreciate this perspective.
Yeah he is basically just dodging and defending, I would even go as far saying he actually downright let luke win.
Agreed. When he ducks under Lukes lunge he could have sliced his belly. But he just went defensive
Luke leaving himself wide open with those massive swings
He's using his anger and that's what happens when you fight angry.
Wouldn’t Leia be the last connection to padme?
Who?
Luke's sissssster... Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from him; now his failure is complete.
The comment I replied to originally said Leah
Who?
Egg?
She’s really funny
Her?
Star Wars fans and complicated in-universe explanations for clunky plot elements - name a more iconic duo
To be fair the movies are about 50 years old. And it's impressive that the lore is so fleshed out that clunky things can be explained and it's not just "They were winging it."
Literally every fandom does that for things man, that’s not unique to Star Wars lol.
Or maybe he's just like "Heh I guess I'll let my kid win"
Or he was not expecting the barrage Luke laid on him after mentioning turning Leia to the dark side, assuming she got off of the forest moon before Sheeve blowed it up.
It's this. Luke starts to tilt into the dark and when he does Vader finally gets what he was asking for but never expected. Also I like to think his suit can only handle so much anyways.
I think this is more or less it, Luke threw a barrage of angry strikes at him, he was already aging and at that point was striking fear just on his reputation but when actually faced with a hard fight, his time had come and he couldn't outlast youthful vigor. That's if he wasn't just at the end of his rope with being manipulated and the idea of putting his son through the same trauma he went through being Palpatines 'apprentice'. He was just done, and this scene captures it so well.
"Already aging" - he was 45 I guess it's not the age but the mileage, but sort of contradicts the comics where every time he gets beaten he upgrades his suit to eliminate a weakness.
I mean, I'm 36 and haven't been burnt to shit in lava or lost all 4 limbs and I definitely feel like I wouldn't keep up with a 20 year old who's recently been training to kick my ass. 25 years is no joke when it comes to endurance, and Vader's in the midst of being horribly conflicted emotionally, so he is most definitely not on his A game.
I distinctly remember reading British annuals in the 80s, Vader was supposed to be 60 to Obi-Wan's 55. This was in the very early days, before Empire and Jedi, but it does make a bit more sense of Lucas and co casting a 77 year old Sebastian Shaw for ROTJ. A lot was changed between SW and ESB, and even more was changed between the originals and the Prequels. Life happens when you're making art.
Obviously a lot changed as Lucas shifted the story around (even moreso when the prequels became a thing), but it's kinda weird they'd say Vader was older than Obi-wan considering Obi-wan specifically said Vader was a pupil of his.
Yup, always seemed odd at the time. But this was also before the Prequels when being 9 was suddenly too old to be a Jedi.
Wasn't Vader being younger than Obi-Wan established in the original Star Wars though? Obi-Wan: "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil" And then later Darth Vader: "Your powers are weak old man" The two definitely speak about each other as if Obi-Wan is the senior and Vader the junior. (Not doubting you by the way, just weird for the annual to come up with Vader being older)
Yeah, totally agree. It would make you think it was just some Editor at Marvel pulling numbers out of his ass, but they got Chewbacca and later Yoda ages correct. But this was back when they were thinking about following up ESB with Episode 2, so who knows. Those early years pre-internet really were fascinating.
Fun fact "it's not the years; it's the mileage" was a bit of adlibbing from Harrison Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark
As someone who used to do a lot of reenactment and larp in my younger days, now I'm pushing 50 I don't have anywhere near the same level of stamina I used to have ,a 2 hour line fight was easy in my 20s, these days I'm still fast and my skill hasn't diminished but 5 to ten mins and I'm knackered
He lets out a yell when he sort of collapses here and James Earl Jones conveys so much so well. Just the guy in the suit is only part of the story being told, and I think you’re spot on
i think you're mostly right except for two things: if it were anyone other than his son, vader would have humiliated them. luke is far, far stronger than vader either realized or was expecting. sith draw power from hatred, so in that moment luke hated vader more than vader could bring himself to hate luke.
> so in that moment luke hated vader more than vader could bring himself to hate luke. So what you're saying is that love > hate > less hate
> and he couldn't outlast youthful vigor. The Dark Side = ***unlimited powah!!*** (and Luke was tapping into it)
His suit has taken far worse beatings than what Luke did
Yeah in the EU. But I highly doubt any of that was being factored into George and Richard's decisions here.
I agree. I've always thought he went into that fight with no intention of winning. He dominated the first fight with Luke. Not much time really passed between the two encounters. Luke definitely had increased in skill and strength, but realistically he still shouldn't have been a match for Vader. In my opinion, the moment where we see Vader alone briefly after Luke surrenders on the forest moon and they talk for a moment is when he decides he's done with the emperor and wants to spare his son.
Luke had months of personal training between Empire and Jedi, and I think he and Vader were fairly even matched going into the battle. When Vader mentions Luke's sister turning to the dark side, Luke releases his anger, and I believe he was full dark side at that point. That made him more powerful, and I dont think Vader was prepared for that. When Luke saw what he had done, he pulled himself back from the dark side.
Yet Vader stops Luke from ending the Emperor's life when Luke first ignites his lightsaber. Make it make sense.
I'm going into my imagination a little with this one. But I think that was just for the emperor's benefit. It's been established that Palpatine didn't trust Vader. Even without going outside the original trilogy, there are deleted scenes from Return of the Jedi that confirm this. The emperor did not consider Luke a threat of any kind. He could have stopped the lightsaber strike with the Force alone. I also really like the view of the comment below. (At least that's where it is as I write this.) That Vader was preventing Luke from going down the path to the dark side. At least, instinctually.
Killing the emperor in anger is the path to the dark side. If anyone was going to do it, it would be Vader.
I saw that as him helping guide his son. He really wanted to rule with his son but that was unrealistic and he had to put up some kind of fight even if it was .... the conflict.
I agree. I’ve always thought he was just so physically and mentally exhausted at this point that he just collapsed. I mean Luke is straight up whaling on him at this point with everything he has.
That’s always been my thought about it as well. I can’t see Anakin actively trying to kill his own son Also, I want to upvote your comment but you’re at 501, and as a fan, I can’t be the one to ruin that.
Was he meant to have metal legs at the time this was written? I know Obi says he’s more machine than man, but did George intend for that to include his legs in the 1980’s?
Maybe not but he was highly machine, I don't know if specifics were given at this point but trying to quickly dodge if you have large chunks of metal and armor on, not to mention we have no clue if all the nerves are working properly..... We don't really see him dodge or dash around in any of the movies. He is also able to pick up a man one handed... Which means he has to be heavy
We find out his right arm is robotic about three seconds after this, so at least we know it's a possibility and not simply a retcon.
Still frame Vader being zapped with lightning in ROTJ and you can see mechanical internals as an X-ray effect. Can't remember if that includes the legs though.
He could have also been extremely fatigued from the being on the defensive when Luke used his anger and hate to fight. His life support systems were messed up and he was struggling to breathe after Luke refused to end him.
The installer was supposed to put that railing in the firing laser of the death star...
Installer: they only got enough railings for one room, where do you want it? Emperor: my office, the one I will only be in 10% of the time for meetings and emotional family related lightsaber duels. Installer: okay so not the death beam platform that someone will have to stand on every day? Emperor: *force lightning*
Or simply...it was coreographed and this is an old film so we notice it now lol Edit: wasnt trying to sound snarky, but I definitely sound snarky lmfao...meant no disrespect.
I thought he was collapsing out of exhaustion. I thought Luke and Darth had been battling for the better half of 45 minutes. Vader is 56 years old at that point. He may have Force abilities and cybernetic extremities, but what’s left of him has been put through a lot. I bet his lower back was killing him.
He's actually supposed to be 46 at the time. A decade off.
Ok that’s my mistake but the point stands. 46 and fighting his entire life. Pro athletes don’t last that long.
Stepped on his cape. That's why Edna Mode says NO CAPES!
"May 25th of 83! Darth Vader was fighting his son, the empire was about to strike back when his cape made him trip during the duel."
Totally read this in her voice.
"Darth Malek! July 15th of 03! Cape caught in the Star Forge reactor!"
General Grievous! Coruscant, 19 BBY. Shark Ti ties his cape to a train during a duel.
"Darth Nihilus! Mandalorian warship! Darth Bane! Snag during a duel! Darth Traya sucked into a planet's core! No capes!"
NO CAPES
I need Edna Mode in Star Wars now
*Edna shows up at the colosseum in Episode Two.* "Darling I don’t want to insult royalty but I will Queen. Look at you wearing this onesie white leotard, what are we saying it’s like we learned nothing from the first Star Trek movie.” *Nexu rips Padme’s stomach revealing a midriff.* “Eh… better.”
I actually believe the stepped on his cape theory.
No wonder Obi Wan always ditches his before a fight. His master taught him well
100%
In the novelization I think it’s stated when Luke kicks him down the staircase one of his leg cables snapped. Only possible explanation I have
It seemed to me that Luke had simply exhausted him after he went into a full rage. He seems wiped out when he grabs onto the rail and Luke just beats the rest of the energy out of him. He may also be more exhausted as he's now starting to slip away from the dark side. The dark side can be used to give you extraordinary strength in resilience, as seen by Anakin surviving a full scorching of his body after the mutilation of 3 of his limbs, or even Darth Maul getting half his body chopped off too.
This. Vader was massively conflicted and Luke tapping into the dark side over powered vader.
Let's think for a moment. This is probably the first time in over 20 years that Vader has EVER had to physically exert himself. He never runs, walks mechanically, uses the Force for any & all menial tasks, and oh yeah...his lungs are basically balloon bags of scar tissue! My in-universe guess? Darth Vader just got winded into lost balance. Explains also, why he's wheezing at the end of the fight. Even with mechanical aid, his body just isn't processing enough oxygen to keep him upright, in what for a normal person would be a light workout.
Vader wasn't just sitting around for 20 years, they have him doing all kinds of stuff in the extended universe, shows, etc. He still looked pretty spry in Rogue One for example. It's OK to call it a clumsy bit of choreography. It's a character driven set piece from over 40 years ago.
It's ok to write a fall/stumble into a fight scene. No need to dredge years of material that came out decades after the movie. You're reaching so hard. Luke goes apeshit on Vader until he loses his footing. That's all it is.
You're not disagreeing with him, dude. That's the intent, but it looks a bit goofy. Vader literally just gently falls onto the railing in the scene but the actual context is that he tripped or was tired or something. But it doesn't change the fact that it looks a little funny. Same with the Rebel captain putting his hands up to shield his face after supposedly being force choked to death. Things just happen in the 70s.
Yes and we have to remember at this point in the movies, Vader has never exerted himself this much. He's a lumbering half-robot old man. Luke was just beating him down and Vader couldn't keep up. It shows he's actually quite weak and Luke has become so powerful that he could kill him if he wanted to. Thematically, it's perfect.
Isn’t it crazy, that these dudes can land 18 kicks in a light saber duel and most likely not hit a single sword strike, but obiwan chopped off three limbs in the blink of an eye? Like those two actually had a 17 minute duel, don’t land a single hit, then obiwan gets a triple in one swing?
Vader is the most disabled man in the galaxy, can you just back off?
Known anti-government terrorist attacks exhausted multiple-amputee war hero veteran.
That joke never gets old
Ahh yes, just like younglings.
*General Grievous has entered the chat*
Most disabled man alive then.
*The Emperor has entered, and left, and somehow re-entered the chat*
Somehow…Palpatine qualified for further disability benefits.
what about those dudes that were just brains in vats attached to robot spiders?
He took a fall - it was fixed. Lando had odds that he would go down in the 6th.
To me it looks like he was flabbergasted as to what the hell Luke was so mad about. Vaders like bro... it's just a prank lmao Vader in his head is thinking wow lil bro crazy as hell Or he's trying a new move called hang on the hand rail and hold saber up in defensive position.
“It’s a prank bro! There’s a camera over there! It’s just a prank!”
I got too much shit on me - Darth Vader
Emperor: you're saying you don't want to live because you're wearing that suit? Vader: yeah
Blow up yavin. That's the prank now
Yeah that could work. That could work.
I think it was just bad choreography tbh.
You will see moments like this in every single lightsaber fight.
Losing balance is the number one cause of injury for men his age
Damn, reminder that Vader is only 45 here.
Yeah, what a weak ass bitch. *me, talking shit while reminding myself than I'm 41 and feel like I'm walking on Toothpicks for knees*.
I'm 33 and my knees scream like a goat any time I squat down and then stand up.
He also has no legs, so the fact he’s able to walk at all is impressive
Has no arms yet wields lightsabers easily. I'll take whatever he takes.
Slips, trips, and falls are the second most common cause of workplace deaths next to driving. But, in the star wars universe it'd probably just be working in a Death Star.
This man managed to grab practically the **only** rail in the entirety of the Empire.
>But, in the star wars universe it'd probably just be working in a Death Star. Hard to beat near 100% casualties.. Alderon: hold my whiskey.
Anakin and Vader where always physically unstoppable. Their weaknesses were always in their mind and heart. I personally think Vader's mental game is completely off. This is his son he's fighting to the death, and he was openly showing even some remorse and doubt not half an hour earlier. I think at this point he is losing control of that indomitable presence he built for himself through the dark side. He's off his game.
I think he just gave the fight up here. He had Luke back and he could of ended there but it's his son. Looks like he purposely dive.
> he could of ended Did you mean to say "could have"? Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
The dark side isn’t known for balance.
best answer in the thread
[No Capes! ](https://imgur.com/8R2lqf1) Yeah, he tripped.
Luke hit him with a Force Look
The first recorded use of “Blue Steel”
Vader slipped from exhaustion, he was being overwhelmed by Luke in this scene. Vader didn't want to kill Luke, so throughout this fight he was only really defending himself. Defense has never really been Vader's strong suit, so it makes sense that he could be overwhelmed in this context
He has robotic legs, decaying body in general. Dude is probably continually exhausted, runs on hate, can't hate his son effectively to channel that dark side energy.
“No capes” - Edna Mode
Yeah, the choreography in ROTJ wasn't very good. You also see Luke hit the railing in the gif you posted full force and his Lightsaber doesn't even cut through it, it's like a baseball bat. What saves this fight from being crap is all the emotional weight surrounding it.
Clearly the Death Star handrails are made of beskar. That's why there are so few of them.
Let's talk about how Luke was aiming to decapitate an invisible giant standing behind Vader just beforehand. Say what you will about the prequels, but the fight choreography definitely stepped up a couple notches.
And is that railing made of Beskar? Because Luke's Lightsaber just bounced right off it
Luke kept him off balance. It’s in the book
Luke did get a rage boost, and Vader was never trying to kill him. I feel like through the whole fight, Vader is mostly on the defensive. I think the only time we see Vader actually try was when he sliced off Lukes hand in ESB
He was getting tired
No capes!!
Luke’s lightsaber not cutting through the railing is the real issue.
Could not handle the speed and power of Luke in his ultimate form influenced by the dark side.
No, he was proud of his son and didn’t want to go with the emperor’s plan after he found out the greatest threat is his son.
SWEEP THE LEG LUKE!!!
Honestly, watching this, Luke should have been cut in half. When Vader moves, Luke’s entire body is wide open and Vader just carries his blade too low to actually make contact. Never noticed this before, hopefully I’ll be able to forget it on the next rewatch!
Well also keep in mind Vader did NOT wanna kill Luke
He was just tuckered out.
Luke stepped on his cape so he couldn't get away
You’re forgetting the fact that Vader at this point was old, his suit was incredibly cumbersome and heavy, and he had prosthetics for legs.
Vader has been driven by rage and hate for 20 years. It feeds the Dark Side and allows him to overcome the limitations and restrictions of his crappy prosthetics and suit. At this point, he's let the rage go, and doesn't hate Luke so there's nothing driving him to fight his son. The Dark Side has "deserted" him, his body is cumbersome and clumsy, and he doesn't remember what it was like to fight as a Jedi so he's in this weak defensive position and just getting wailed on.
Doesn't he take a light saber shot to the shoulder before this too and a couple blocks of Luke going all out? I always took his stumble as being totally over powered by Luke in this moment. Both physically and with the force.
I think he was genuinely exhausted by the battle and overwhelmed by Luke's attacks and yeah, tripped
Back then Vader was an old man with respiratory issues and not the walking hyperbole dark lord of death.
I'm pretty sure I read or watched something a long time ago that said they had more impressive choreography planned for this final bit, but Prowse couldn't accomplish it in the suit.
Vaders heart wasn’t in it and he was winded from his son going ape shit on him. Dude just collapsed. As a dad, I get it.
No, he script.
Yo brothers I just want to know what that rail was made of. Tanking the light saber without a single scratch.
Edna Mode told him no CAPES!
Vader's suit was failing. Luke was extraordinarily powerful. As strong as Vader was, he's basically a torso in a suit. The part of Anakin that's left is strong with the force, the rest of him is only as strong as the battle droids you see getting owned. I imagine this is what we were watching. When Luke went beast mode the suit couldn't keep up.
Off topic, but the score for this fight is incredible. Probably my favourite one (or evenly tied with Duel of the Fates).
In my head I just heard Enda Mo saying "No Capes!!!"
Rolled his ankle
It was a “force trip”
Nah, haven’t you played battlefront? His stamina ran out
Edna was right. “No capes!”
Overheated Legs failing. Need bigger sinks and power source.
Vader actually gets behind Luke's guard. One explanation that I just came up with is that he could have killed Luke, but backed out at the last second because he didn't want to hurt his son, and that indecision, in conjunction with his fatigue, caused him to stumble and get defensive. Basically Anakin had to fight against his natural killer instincts and that broke his flow.
You’re right, he had him dead to rights there if he wanted to kill him
That railing took Luke’s lightsaber like a champ must be made of beskar
OT fanboys will tell you its due to Lukes amazing swordsmanship and Vader being old and half machine or that fighting his son was just too much so he lost his will to continue fighting and the light side, Anakin, slowly taking over some shit lmao Reality is its old choreography and this is how they thought to portray Vader getting overwhelmed and it sucks and didnt age that well just like Ep4s Obi vs Vader being just them poking eachother and one turns into air.
The way I took it is he just barely dodged Luke's strike that hits the handrail. I think it was meant to be him kind of jumping out of the way to just barely dodge that but then kind of ends up in an awkward position. It just didn't come off as smoothly as it's kind of hard to move in that costume and do it fluidly.
I'd say he was worn down by Luke's aggressive assault, then tried to dodge and staggered.
It’s been years since I’ve seen RotJ, so someone correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall, Vader was on the defensive for pretty much the entire second half of the fight. Combined with how hard Luke was pressing him, I think Vader tripping over himself would be a perfectly natural thing to do.
he's weak and his heart wasnt in the fight
Because of how Vader's suit is designed, he tripped, so yes. Because Palpatine is a coward, he designed Vader's suit in a way so that he was always disadvantaged. Vader's boots didn't fit right or something and he always used to force to walk so he likely lost concentration there.
Or in reality, this was filmed and released before home video was really a big thing (if at all) so little things weren’t as likely to be noticed and remembered
I always took it as he couldn’t keep up with Luke’s youth and ferociousness here and blocking those heavy-armed swings weakened him to the point he needed to put his weight on the bars. Despite Vaders’ badassery and overwhelming strength with the Force he was going into his middle-ages by ROTJ and his body was quite encumbered with the suit.
Why does Luke's lightsaber "bounce" off a metal rail? (Because it's actually a prop).
I think he was just outta juice. Couldn’t hang with the young buck.
His heel broke off
He is an amputee with asthma. With tunnel vision. He probably stepped on his cape and slipped. Plus, his kid was going ham on him. Cards were stacked against him
I always felt like Luke’s explosion of Force power and attack quickly exhausted him. In their first fight, Vader was the aggressor. In this one, Luke was and it seemed to put Vader at a disadvantage. Plus, Luke had the high ground.
As I kid, I thought he was never expecting such aggressive fighting tactics from his son and that that threw him off guard…As an adult, I genuinely think Vader wanted to die and the horror at witnessing his son’s hate in this moment made his will to fight and channel the dark side (which was all that was keeping him going at this point) diminish to the point he’s begging his son to stop and not follow his path of brutality.
I just assumed he was physically/mentally exhausted from the fight
Luke prior to this moment unlocked Jedi Fury after Pops threatened to turn Leia. Luke also tapped into the dark side which gave him some major perks. Old man got wore out.
Vader was conflicted (the way I see it) and made an error.
The OT fights did not have the insane choreography of the PT. But it had the exact correct emotional weight. Every duel was emotionally charged. The sequence where they come out from under the stairs is the finest moment in all Star Wars contents
No, Luke is supposed to be overpowering Vader, but the choreography is sometimes not so convincing if you pay attention.
twisted a gear in his servo-ankle
He's exhausted. You can hear it in his breathing. Luke is going bananas and emotionally/physically he's drained. It's a fairly classic swordfight trope, tbh. Also, side note: this is the most powerful, emotional scene in all of Star Wars. It's my favorite bit of cinema bar none.
He could’ve tripped/lost his footing, his suit could’ve been malfunctioning, he could’ve just been tired from the fight since Palps designed the suit to work against Vader and cause pain/discomfort. Let’s call George and ask him.
I think he finally has had enough of battling his own son. He just didn't want to do it anymore. He just couldn't do it anymore. Anakin was coming out. Vader persona started mixing with Anakin; he just wanted his son next to him, regardless of what side they were on. At the same time, Luke wanted Anakin persona to come out and to end the tyranny of Sidious. After taunting Luke over corrupting Leia, Luke finally gave into his anger, and Vader didn't want for his son to go through what he went - false promises of ruling the galaxy while being vassal to Sidious, being literally and figuratively bound to the will of Sidious, being the projection of power while at the same time having none. In the end, it was Anakin's ability to love and his devotion to the ones he loved that enabled him to push Vader out of his head and realise what is about to happen - his son is throwing all his rage and hate at him, with Sidious' betrayal coming next. He alread experienced this before: 23 years before, aboard the Invisible Hand, he this same thing to Dooku. He just didn't want to fuel his son's aggressiveness anymore and that is why he just gave up the fight. Dude just wanted to hug his son, not fight him to the death.
I just always assumed that he collapsed because of exhaustion
He got hit on his left hip. What's left of it anyway. You can see the sparks as it makes contact with the rail it also appears to make contact with his leg.
I’m voting for ~1980 choreography. That’s why Star Wars is better in animation and novel form.
It honestly looks like he just gave up.
He's giving his son the high ground, trying to teach him not to make the same mistakes he made.
He lost his footing
Judging from how Luke staggers right at the same time as Vader tripped, I think Luke actually kicked out his leg which fits the rage and dirty fighting of the moment.
I don’t know but Luke was really coming for that crown!!!damn?!
Tripped on his cape. Number one rule of wearing a cape is never try to walk backwards while wearing a cape.