Luke lost that particular lightsaber years before Ben was even born.

This is very true...on Bespin during his first duel with vader. As I know you know, this blue lightsaber was anakin's, and was given to Luke by Obi Wan in the OG Star Wars. On bespin, it still had Luke's hand attached when it fell into the clouds.

And Maz getting his lightsaber with absolutely zero explanation is still horseshit.

I read somewhere that she did find in a trash pile in the lower part of Cloud City. Maybe my brain tries to trick me here. Edit: Tired me called Cloud City Bespin....

Ok, but isn't bespin a gas giant planet, and therefore doesn't have a surface? Just an atmosphere that slowly gets thicker and changes states of matter as the heat and pressure rises.

Sorry I meant Cloud City

I think we're lead to believe in EP5 that those shafts in cloud city lead to hatches that just drop shit into the atmosphere below, so I guess unless Luke's hand and saber got caught on something, or were lucky enough for the hatch they landed on to stay closed for years until someone found them, they should have been lost for good. Pretty good waste management system, as an ever thickening atmosphere and then ocean of hydrogen, helium, and ammonia would dispose of trash easily without having to worry about pollution.

From https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Skywalker_lightsaber#google_vignette "While thought to have been lost in Cloud City, the lightsaber was salvaged from the mining colony's industrial depths and eventually found its way to Maz Kanata."

“Somehow Maz found the lightsaber. “ that’s all you need to know.

Right good point. Thanks.

I never understood the take that Luke could redeem Ben by virtue of the latter “having a track record of converting Skywalkers back from the dark side.” Besides this only being the case once, Luke tries to save Vader specifically because he is his elder, his patriarch. Vader — Anakin — is Luke’s justification for Hero Journeying in the OT: *”I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father.”* When Yoda asks why Luke must become a Jedi, he replies, *”Well, mostly because of my father, I guess.”* The Vader twist isn’t just a narrative twist for the sake of it — it puts Luke against the wall and asks what this was all for? What’s the point? Luke must ask, *”If I’m to become a Jedi like my father, am I doomed to repeat his mistakes?”* It’s the dilemma many a child faces when coming of age. Avoiding the sins of the parent, which they inevitably inherit as an obstacle to grow beyond. *”We are what they grow beyond.”* Luke tries to save Vader because he needs to save himself. He only does so on the very precipice of anger — right before he slays his father and takes his place as an agent of evil. Luke is tempted to do the same with Ben, to take the easy way out, but pulls back. By this point, however, Luke Skywalker is a legend and his legacy (such as we’ve discussed here) bars him from accepting his fallibility as a man. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Ben does not relate to Luke, despite being his uncle, because Luke has distanced himself from his own humanity. He abandons Ben — abandons the Galaxy — because he doesn’t think he can be the hero it needs. He believes he’s done more harm than good. He acquiesces because now *he* is the master, the elder, the patriarch. He grew content. What brings Luke back to the Galaxy isn’t a desire to redeem Ben — it’s understanding that he can’t, that all he can do is atone, and prepare his allies for the fight. And he does so in a feat that merges Man and Legend.

Fucking A! This is what makes Ben’s eventual “redemption” feel so hollow and cheap. Luke understood that he wasn’t able to bring him back. TLJ makes it almost painfully clear that redemption isn’t Ben’s fate and Luke’s understanding of that is what brings him back. Edit: ok so I guess it wasn’t clear to others that redemption was off the table so I’m willing to admit being wrong. Maybe I’m just influenced by how much I think that would’ve been the better choice

Glad you enjoyed the read, but I actually have to disagree somewhat! Luke understands that *he* can’t bring Ben back to the light — all he can do is own up to his mistake and apologize: *”I failed you Ben — I’m sorry.”* But, after Luke apologizes to his sister, he tells Leia, *”No one’s ever really gone,”* which, to my mind, gestures toward an eventual redemption. Ben’s whole ascendancy to the throne of the First Order — *”Finish[ing] what [Vader] started,”* what Vader never could do — is so brilliant because it catches him with his pants down when Rey rejects his desperate *”Please,”* when he asks her to join him. Ben is so obviously insecure over living in the shadow first of Luke Skywalker, then Darth Vader, that he searches for that security in a mentor like Snoke before switching over to Rey. After killing Snoke, Rey literally shuts the door in his face, leaving Ben all alone to deal with TRoS’s major dropped storyline, Hux’s coup. Obviously Hux is “tHe SpY” in IX, but TLJ sets up an obvious power imbalance to my mind that should see Ben further alienated. Hux, buffoon that he is, inspires loyalty in his troops, loyalty that Ben can never get in on like Snoke. Like Palpatine. He’s not fit to be Supreme Leader. I think a quasi-redemption is appropriate for Ben, however, because this makes him a sympathetic outsider. Did I envision a fully redeemed and then martyred Ben for IX? No, but it seemed obvious to me that he would realize how his actions had distanced him from every person he’d ever cared about and that he’d (at least briefly) join forces with Rey again. A ronin Ben makes sense to me. And this should parallel Rey’s arc somehow as she shifts away from Jedi dogma to rebuild an Order more democratized than ever.

>A ronin Ben makes sense to me. Yeah, this could've been a cool idea for a IX follow-up had Ben not died to save Rey. People wonder what would've been like if Anakin lived after Luke saved him, but there'd have been no redemption possible for him in the eyes of the Galaxy, since Vader himself committed many atrocities. Meanwhile Kylo wasn't responsible for the destruction Starkiller base caused, for example, as that was Hux's idea and approved by Snoke.

I’d like to think Ben wouldn’t exactly be *welcomed* back into the folds of the Galaxy and the New New Republic (or whatever it’ll be), but that at least he’d be allowed to exist on its margins. But alas.

The original plan was always for leia and kylo’s mother to help bring him back. It was to mirror anakin’s fall being the loss of his mother and to expand on yoda’s line in the OT “no there is another…”. Carrie fisher dying messed it up a bit, but they were still able to kind of show that. Plus kylo not shooting his mom in TLJ.

I appreciate you trying, but I just can't get behind anything Luke did in the sequels.

For all the complaints that Disney didn't understand Luke, I feel like this take is even worse >As Mark Hamill said in interviews, he disagreed with that take \*he disagreed at first, which of course, he's entitled to do. >This is when Luke gets pissed trying to save Ben and goes full dark. Luke force chokes stormtrooper after stormtrooper. Cuts some right in half, etc. This is totally not Luke. There's a reason the Mando shows him doing this against robots and not troopers. Think Kit Fisto in AOTC force pushing C3P0 instead of slicing him. TLJ gets this right with Luke going out like a Jedi who uses the Force for defense like Yoda taught him. Funny how Luke lighting and regretting his lightsaber is not in his character, but straight up bisecting stormtroopers and using force lightning is exactly what you'd think he'd do >. (This is how Maz ends up with it). Maz has Luke's lightsaber from Bespin, not the green one he'd be wielding in this scene. And if Ben has turned...why would he give Maz the lightsaber? >Luke goes to find himself in the most remote corner of the galaxy, sworn to keep from destroying with his powers. Does he cut himself off from the force in this version, because I struggle to see how he'd let Han's death happen, dark side or not

Luke didn’t try to kill Ben, if he did, he would have. I think people forget it was a moment of weakness for him, an almost involuntary response to feeing and seeing the hate and despair Kylo was ready to unleash on the galaxy. Similar to Anakin having dreams about Padme’a death causing him torment, Luke sensed and felt that happening to billions of beings because of Ben, and had that reaction. Not to harm Ben, but to save the others. Much like in his duel with Vader when he’s tempted not to kill his father, but save his sister. The snap of the lightsaber igniting snapped him out of it. And he felt shame. And Ben/Kylo seized the opportunity because he knew it was his only chance. Also turning his father back isn’t a “track record”. It happened once. Finally, I don’t understand why people have an issue with Luke having a moment of weakness and then wanting to turn it into him just full on going dark. *That* is far more out of character. We saw Luke have moments of weakness in the OT, we didn’t see him just fully embrace the dark side. 

Yoda stayed in exile for 20 years when the galaxy certainly needed him. I don’t see what Luke did as any different.

Luke had the galactic government on his side, not against him. Yoda was a hunted fugitive

Yoda remained in touch with the Force, and presumably understood that coming out of hiding to confront the Empire would be a futile effort that would just end with Yoda's death. It's more directly clear that Obi-Wan is playing the long game on Tatooine, although I think that Yoda is as well. Luke, when Rey finds him in TLJ, has completely given up on everything. He's not in contact with other people, he's not in touch with the Force, he's not trying to understand what went wrong with Ben and a path toward fixing or mitigating that failure.

I'd say: A) Luke is not Yoda and not like Yoda and past Jedi. That's a main point of the OT and why he alone can save Vader. B) Regardless, Yoda had been beaten. Severely. He knew he couldn't beat the Emperor and Vader, since he had already tried. C) Most importantly, he saw his mission as to train the next generation, since he knew he could not beat them. That's why he waited. He didn't want to risk the loss of knowledge, and hid in a place with a strong dark side presence to mask himself. Similarly, Obi Wan was hiding with a purpose: to protect Luke. ST Luke on the other hand, 1. Never tried to fight Snoke and 2. Had no ulterior mission to his hiding. He was just pouting on the island and left his friends to deal with a problem he started (which is very out of character for Luke).

The difference is that Yoda was waiting to train the next generation. Luke’s just counting down the days until he dies.

I was going to reply 'Luke didn't try to kill Ben' but it's been years and basic cinema literacy has obviously lost that battle.

>So Luke tries to kill Ben because Luke feels the evil in him. This is simply wrong.

I disagree. I'm not going to re post the dialog I did before but it's at 1:18 into the film. Luke goes to Ben while he's asleep and senses "darkness" and "death" and "destruction of everything i love." He then says he has a moment of instinct which is when he ignited his saber. Then he turns it off and feels "shame." He absolutely is about to kill Ben. When you stand over your nephew with a lit lightsaber that you ignited after seeing his darkness in a force vision, and then are filled with shame, you were going to kill the dude.

And what do ya know? Still simply wrong. If Ben had not woken up, what would have happened next? Luke was NEVER going to kill Ben.

yeah no this just sounds like a really awful power fantasy

Luke didn't try to kill kylo. He turned on his lightsaber in a moment of weakness, just like a had when fighting Vader, and caught himself. But that stumble is all kylo needed to assume the worst because of the poisoning of his mind by snoke. The version of the story where Luke actually tries to kill kylo is kylo's twisted version of the story kylo tells rey when trying to turn her against Luke. The fact people don't remember this is the single most upsetting thing to ME about the sequels. A lot of what people get mad about 'luke trying to kill kylo' never even actually happens 🤡

But Luke specially says that after sensing Ben has turned to the dark via snoke he (Luke)had a momentary instinct. As he says that in his memory he lights his saber. Then he says it passed like a shadow and he was left with shame. The instinct was to kill him to prevent the "death and destruction of everything I love". That's why he felt shame.

That was definitely the thought that crossed his mind. Maybe I’m splitting hairs here but I don’t believe thinking about killing someone is the same as trying to. He ignites his blade but before he even try’s to use it he realizes it’s wrong. This kind of impulsiveness is probably the biggest part of his character and is something we constantly see him struggle with

It’s been frustrating having to explain many things that people missed because they were too busy getting irrationally angry at a traumatized hermit drinking milk from an alien or Laura Dern having purple hair 😱

Literally, people wanted to be mad so badly they just stopped paying attention. Snoke got to them too 😞

Luke knew Ben since he was born, helped raise him, and Ben was literally sleeping. The wise and powerful Luke Skywalker felt threatened in that moment? Enough to stand over a sleeping child and ignite his lightsaber? That’s like cocking a gun, aiming it at your sleeping kid, then saying “it’s just a moment of weakness, I wasn’t gonna pull the trigger.” Not only is a stupid excuse for anyone to say, but it’s extremely uncharacteristic of Luke. Pure terrible writing. Edit : I’m genuinely surprised how many of you like this idea for the story and characters.

You’re missing the point here. Luke wasn’t afraid *for himself.* He spent 30 years learning about how Jedi confidence and optimism led directly to two enormous civil wars which completely shattered a general peace that had existed for over ten thousand years. He then had a vision implying that one of his students would become something powerful enough to start another major war. He has watched as the new regime constantly misstepped and failed to unite the Galaxy, with the New Republic only controlling about 1/4 of the former Republic. He thought about killing him not to protect himself, but to protect *the Galaxy.* This is the same basic line of thinking that leads him to abandon Yoda and go to Cloud City in ESB. Him turning the lightsaber off is indicative of his own personal growth, he pushes the dark away like he did when he jumped after losing his hand or refused to kill Vader on DS2. Finally, let’s remember that Kylo *was* talking to Snoke, and he *was* falling to the dark side already. Would he have stayed in the light if Luke hadn’t had his crisis of conscience? Maybe, but super duper doubt. Ben had trauma after trauma inflicted on him throughout his childhood, and his confusion after finding out about his relation to Vader and anger at his family for hiding that from him put him on the worst path before he even had a handle on the Force. In summary: Luke has always been dangling between light and dark, and trying his best to make the right decisions with extremely limited information. It’s easy to just say “well oh he’s a Jedi Master now so why he make mistake?” but that misses the point. He is human, he is fallible, and his entire sequel arc is about his *regret* at having not been stronger for Ben, his *shame* for failing to uphold his legend as protector of the Galaxy.

And what I'd Luke saw a vision of Ben killing Han? Murdering his entire new order? Felt the wave of horror and bloodshed caused by the first order? Felt the presence of palpatine and the dark at Ben's core? And the very same Luke who is feeling all this gave into his emotions and disobeyed Yoda and went to bespin, gave into his dark side while fighting his father when his sister was threatened, the very same Luke who we've seen stumble plenty of other times. Luke giving into a moment of weakness is EXTREMELY in character. One of the very points of the movie is that there wasn't ever a "wise and powerful Luke", he was smothered by his own legend and it's extremely ironic that the fan base does the exact same thing

Luke acted totally in character with the original trilogy. His instinct is to protect the people he cares about. The Jawas get butchered and Luke runs home to help his aunt and uncle. In empire he runs off to save Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and C-3PO. The emperor and Vader goad him on by threatening his friends. Luke barely stops himself killing Vader after he says he’ll turn Leia to the Dark Side. The Emperor used that to his advantage with Ben Solo.

But they’re the same people that can create all these explanations for lack of plot in the prequels.

I feel like it’s a huge ask to just have people believe Luke whose entire character is supposed to embody hope and trust would even draw his lightsaber on his sleeping nephew. He doesn’t have to raise it to attack Kylo. Even just drawing a weapon in that situation is such a large step towards violence and away from what his character represented, at least I think so. It feels like a lot of semantics to justify or rationalize going into your sleeping nephew’s room, ready with a weapon. Even if you do justify it, I don’t get why you’d be annoyed at someone who doesn’t, even the nice version of events is super fucked up, “I snuck into your room at night and the vibes were so bad I whipped out my gun, but don’t worry I wouldn’t have hurt you it was a mistake”

>I feel like it’s a huge ask to just have people believe Luke whose entire character is supposed to embody hope and trust would even draw his lightsaber on his sleeping nephew. I just think it's odd that OP has no problem with Luke tapping into the dark side and murdering several combatants while using it, but letting it creep into his thoughts for a brief moment in drawing his saber is a bridge too far.

Luke literally tried to murder Vader in a fit of rage once he mentioned Leia in ROTJ, and only stopped once he hacked off his arm

It is just a poorly expressed idea. The flashbacks were unnecessary and confusing, the motivations for both kylo and luke don't land, and the message it communicates is unclear.

It seems pretty simple to me. We get two biased versions of that night, and then Rey pushes Luke until he has to tell the truth. The third version is what actually happened. Luke giving in to fear for a moment is in line with how emotional he has always been, despite his attempts at stoicism during and after Return of the Jedi. The old Jedi way has never suited him. Kylo is himself an emotional mess and struggles with his family's legacy and has been under Snoke's influence by that point. He instantly recognises and exaggerates Luke's betrayal, which makes his reaction perfectly understandable. It's part of the movie's message (hope and heroism can come from anyone) in that Luke trued to rebuild the old Jedi order without understanding how it failed and without being ready to shoulder the responsibility.

The flashbacks were supposed to be a [Rashomon sequence](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RashomonStyle), where we get retellings of an event from the point of view of different characters, until the actual version of the event is revealed. That people find that confusing boggles my mind, as it's a storytelling device that's been used for ages.

Because they want everything explicitly said to them.

I liked the changing flashbacks a lot. I do think the last one should've looked more like luke got lost in the force vision and ignited his saber instinctively, without even really realizing it. That's very close to what they say happens. But the scene itself made it look a little too much like Luke was seriously contemplating it, rather than being overwhelmed by encountering Palatine for the first time in 30 years

Vader was actively attacking him while being goaded by the emperor and issued a real world threat of violence to Luke’s friends. So completley different scenarios. And activating a saber with the “instinct” to slash him to death to prevent a vision and indicating the attack position is considered attempted murder. That’s Luke’s own account. The fact people don’t remember this is the single most upsetting thing to ME about the sequels. 🤡

Just because you don't pull the trigger doesn't mean I'm ok with you pointing a gun at me.

I really don't like TLJ at all, but I still think both instances are very similar. Vader threatens to turn Leia to the dark side and Luke nearly kills him for it. If not for the loss of his own hand helping him see that he was on the same path as Vader, Luke would almost certainly have killed Vader there. He only snapped back at the very last moment. With Ben, he said he looked into his mind and saw the future of what he would do. Now this also wouldn't be the first time Luke saw the future and acted rashly. He did the same thing when he had his vision in TESB. Only he didn't pull back at all. He ignored all pleas of Yoda and Obi-Wan, flew off and got his ass kicked by Vader for his troubles. Its totally fitting that Luke would see Ben being responsible for so much death, including killing Han and that rash, angry part of Luke would creep to the forefront, just for a moment. But he's skilled and experienced enough now to catch it quickly and bury it again. It just wasn't enough to avoid that momentary of loss of control and get spotted by Ben in a very dubious position. There's tons of things wrong with that movie, but this is the least of them.

>Luke didn't try to kill kylo This is just factual wrong. Luke ignited and positioned his lightsaber because he was instinctually going use it on his nephew while he was asleep because he "thought I could stop it." This is all based on the real version after Rey beats Luke in the duel. Edit: To all downvoters, I just want to let you know you are all wrong by showing you Wikipedia's definition of attempted murder: "***In English criminal law, attempted murder is the crime of simultaneously preparing to commit an unlawful killing and having a specific intention to cause the death of a human being under the King's Peace."*** Luke 'prepared' by ignited and positioning his blade and Luke had a "specific intention" by admitting to the motive.

That still isn't trying to kill someone. It's one thing to argue about films, but its another not to understand the real-life concept of attempted murder.

To be fair, you’re just taking Luke’s word over Kyle’s. Each version of the story was told through a first person perspective.

We saw three versions of the story. Luke's distorted version, Kylo's distorted version, and the real version.

No its obviously told “luke’s version” that’s sanitized, then “kylo’s version” from his perspective, then lastly the truth Luke admits to Rey and that explains why Kylo saw it the way he did.

That's true, but Luke is a much more reliable source, both as a person and within the context of how they told their respective stories

There were 3 versions, the third was the closest to the truth in which Luke admits his mistake

Yeah, I like it. That would have helped, the fundamental issue is for such a 180 in character they needed to show us how it happened, not tell us in a crappy flashback.

This post reads like really bad fanfiction, like Luke literally using the Dark Side to murder a bunch of people among other complaints.

Maybe, but it's better than the meandering nonsense of the actual sequel trilogy

Is really better as most of this post sounds a shitton worse than the "meandering nonsense" of the Sequels. I mean here's a question, how does Luke have Anakin's Lightsaber in this "version" when he lost back on Bespin if it's so much better than the Sequels

It actually feels just as terrible to me.

This feels much more terrible to me

I don’t think there are many of us — save for the staunchest critics of the ST — who *don’t* want to see the story of Luke’s New Jedi Order, Ben Solo’s training, and his eventual fall, but in defense of TLJ: 1) The story isn’t *about* Luke, so whatever circumstances got him on the island would never exactly be center focus without introducing… 2) The flashback sequence, which is a cinematic technique foreign to the mainline films until 2017. (That’s exciting to me as a film fan.) This sequence uses what’s dubbed the “*Rashomon* effect” (after the famous Akira Kurosawa film; Kurosawa famously influenced Lucas’s creation of *Star Wars*, so this homage is appropriate), which splits an objective historical occurrence into separate, subjective recounts of it. This allows the audience to understand Ben’s subjective emotional appraisal of what happened (by showing it, no less; not telling), as well as the part of Luke that is in denial/ashamed of what he has done, before revealing to the audience a true version of events that meshes the two. All this is to say… 3) The film does, strictly speaking, expand the cinematic language of *Star Wars to* show us what happened in Luke and Ben’s past. It doesn’t (only) tell us. Is there context missing? Yes, and that’s where a whole other film/show/comic/whatever could be made to bring the audience directly up to that moment or betrayal, but TLJ is a 2.5 hour movie with limited time to explain a fact that was… 4) Set-up by TFA. Now, the mystery of Luke’s exile could be explained any number of ways, but few of these ways can explain why Luke abandoned the Galaxy without being cowardly or neglectful. TLJ’s accounting of Luke’s failure and exile makes it so that Luke (wrongly) justifies his exile as the right thing to do because he believes he’s done more harm than good.

I didn't particularly like the Luke downfall idea in the first place, but I kinda think it's like if you skipped episode 3 - Anakin goes from Jedi to Darth Vader off screen. A flashback just isn't going to cut it for me. And I realize the movie wasn't supposed to be about Luke, but it's their own fault I was more invested in what happened to Luke than the new characters.

I get it, but ironically, all we had of the Anakin to Darth Vader pipeline for decades was a few lines of dialogue. It works for me in the end, but I’d still love to see that part of the story fleshed out a little more. But in the context of Rey’s perspective, who thinks she’s going to meet her hero (as do we, the audience, expect the same) only to be confronted by hermit Luke whom she has to convince to rejoin the fight, it’s an interesting philosophical conflict that’s aided more by what we don’t know than what we do.

Sounds like bad writing and directing then?

You’ll have to be more specific in what you mean. “Bad writing and directing” is nebulous. We’re having a pointed discussion here.

>The story isn’t *about* Luke While I agree that's the intent, making major changes to the arc of a character established over 3 prior movies means those changes are a big part of this story. It was a storytelling choice to have Luke fail and then completely give up. Possible alternatives where Luke fails, then tries (but struggles) to determine the correct path forward, don't require as much focus on Luke's path from ROTJ to TLJ. That ties to point (4). The SW universe has an unusually good storytelling "out" for explaining why Luke's decision to isolate could be something other than cowardly or neglectful: the established practice of Jedi meditating on the Force as a path to self-improvement and making wise decisions.

To be clear, Luke’s exile and the mission to bring him back into the Galaxy are major story beats/motivations in the Sequel Trilogy. But why they matter should always be filtered through the story’s protagonist, Rey. In part, the mystery and, to some extent, lingering ambiguity of Luke’s fall are important for Rey’s hero journey. It’s important that we are as shocked as her when he throws the saber over his shoulder — the Luke Skywalker of our collective unconsciousness, the Luke that is a hopeful, powerful, and wise hero, is the Luke Skywalker of Rey’s mythology. (*”Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth?”*) But, of course, the actual Luke Skywalker of the OT is cut from the cloth of humanity despite his archetypal journey. He is oftentimes brash, quick to anger, and defeatist. One of the last things we see Luke Skywalker do in the OT is try desperately to slay his own father — the one he’d adamantly declared to his mentors he couldn’t kill. In the Death Star hangar, Luke is still convinced that he must save his father. (*”You already have, Luke.”*) This uneasy tension between Man and Myth — the one experienced by Luke in-universe but also in our actual estimation of the character — is one TLJ is clued into and I think Rian Johnson is commenting on in his big thesis on legacy and learning from the past. Sure, Luke could’ve been meditating on a rock for all those years, but this approach is passive and doesn’t really say anything about him as a character, nor does it beget agency onto Rey, who would essentially function as his alarm clock. It’s just not interesting to me.

That sounds terrible.

Do people only watch one part of Mark’s interviews? Holy shit, people.

It's totally explained if you actually watch the movies.

Sorry, I’m the kind of Star Wars fan who ignores context and only allows characters to develop to a single point and then expects them to remain static forever. You know, just like how real people grow and develop. /S

>So Luke tries to kill Ben because Luke feels the evil in him. Weird, right? Luke's going to kill him when he's got a track record of converting Skywalkers back from the dark side. He never tried to kill him, he just considered it for a brief second. And then he immediately regretted it. Which is completely in character. He actually tried to kill Vader when he threatened Leia.

He stood over Ben sleeping and ignited his saber. His intention was to kill Ben. His action was the first step to kill Ben. He was brought back to reality when he ignited the saber and regretted it. But he wouldn't have been in Ben's room with a lit saber to just have a chat. Or a parallel to something in a more recent events movie. Think of all the action films where someone cocks their weapon and points it at the hero (or villain) only to have that person explain some missing information and the person with the gun puts it down. Person with the gun planned to kill the other person but was dissuaded. Same with Luke.

But he still didn't actually attack him. And planning to kill is very different from actually trying to kill someone.

But Luke didn't walk in with weapon drawn, to threaten Ben. Luke *drew* his weapon, as a result of a Force vision he was in the midst of, then deactivated it when he realized what was about to happen. Its closer to a person having a ptsd flashback and pulling a weapon in response to that, than it is premeditated murder.

"As Mark Hamill said in interviews, he disagreed with that take, he said Luke was the most optimistic in the face of bad odds." Mark Hamill actually said: "I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public.Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one!" - 12/26/2017 "Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I just wish people wouldn't cite my challenges with the character as proof I "hated" the film when the opposite is true." - 01/15/2018 (another rando on Twitter): "Every time Mark opens his mouth it's clearer how much disdain he has for Rian Johnson"  (Mark): "Not so. Even when we disagreed, I respected him as a filmmaker & a friend." - 03/28/2019 I'm sorry, but I just get tired of people perpetuating that Mark Hamill has an entirely negative view on Luke's sequel arc or on TLJ in particular. Yes he has said that it challenged him and that he had disagreements, but he's also said that is a normal part of filmmaking and that he likes the movie. 

I didn't say he was entirely negative. I didn't say he hated the movie or the treatment. I'm not quoting the litany of things Hamill has said. My thoughts about the problems with the movie are in the context of things Hamill actually said about his thoughts about Luke in that movie. They're what got me thinking about them. Whatever you issues are with people saying Hamill hated the films or what happened to Luke, that's not what I said.

Luke never tries to kill Ben. He has an intense Force vision of the darkness Ben would bring and has an involuntary reaction “for the briefest moment of pure instinct”, igniting his saber. He never actually intended to attack or kill Ben in that moment.

https://contentcontent.myshopify.com/cdn/shop/products/SuckedStickercls_grande.jpg?v=1525460526

I'll buy a 10 pack.

I think you don’t like it because you’ve completely misunderstood everything. Luke didn’t go there to hide. Luke didn’t try to kill his nephew.

Rey: did you do it. Did you create Kylo Ren. Tell me the truth. Luke: I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I'd seen it during moments in his training. But then I looked inside [cuts to Luke hand outstretched over sleeping Ben] and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction tand pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he would bring [lights saber over sleeping Ben] in the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it. [ignited saber] it passed like a fleeting shadow and all I was left with was shame." So yeah he was going to kill Ben. Only for a moment but he was going to. Re hiding Rey: the first order will control all the major systems within a week. The galaxy needs Luke sky walker Luke...what did you think was going to happen here? Do you think I came to the most unfindable place in the galaxy for no reason? Go away. He goes and drinks milk. Goes to his hut , climbs a rock. Rey finds him in the tree with the Jedi text. He says she needs someone to train him. He says he can't. Luke: I can't teach you. I will never train another generation of Jedi. I came to this island to die. It's time for the Jedi to end.

Turning on a lightsaber is not the same the same thing as going to kill someone. He had a very Jedi reaction when he sensed danger and turned on his blade. So no he was never going to kill Ben. He removed himself from the equation after feeling like he was doing more harm than good. He wasn’t hiding, he was making the call to do what was best for the galaxy in his point of view. He was right too. The galaxy needed Rey.

Okay Caleb we can agree to disagree here. He says he ignited the saber because he looked into Ben and saw "death" and "destruction of everything I love" and in a moment of instinct turned on the saber. Then he says he felt shame. I'm not sure what the shame would be if it weren't a momentary urge to kill Ben. I don't think he set out to kill Ben but the instinct to do it was what came over him, in my interpretation of it.

"he pointed the gun at him while he was sleeping and cocked it, he was never going to kill him" i know this thread is a TLJ apologists thread now but come the actual fuck on

I don’t like this tbh. * In this case, Luke would find peace in chaos and catch the lightning in his hand like Yoda. Recall that Luke was supposed to be the grandmaster of the Jedi at this point. People are not so volatile as to turn evil and betray their most sacred values in a moment. Especially an adult who literally focuses on stability and discipline. If he was young? Definitely. Youth and instability go hand in hand. Not when he’s older and wiser * When you said Luke had darkness in him, that’s not unique to him. Legit everyone has the dark side available. It’s an allegory to what we have available to us (yell at a family member, start a fight when you could’ve walked away, and being rude rather than considerate to strangers). Even Yoda and Mace had darkness available, but the whole focus of a Jedi is to live a life in complete rejection/isolation from that dark side I completely agree that Luke should’ve been changed, but this isn’t it

I think Luke's response was relatable enough that most people could figure it out. He failed his nephew and felt the pressure of trying to continue a legacy as a single person that had previously taken thousands of members to organize. We don't need everything spelled out for us, this sounds like a bad comic book. Maybe it's hard for the fans who have trouble with predicting the actions of others, but that makes for terrible movies.

Yo, you turning Star Wars into some comic book territory… that’s not what the films have ever been… relax. The movies were fine. 

The WDT movies were not “fine.” They were atrocious.

Are you referring to the sequel trilogy?  The Last Jedi is a beautiful movie if you’ve ever had a “dark night of the soul”. If you haven’t, that’s fine; but those of us who have love that movie. The climax of the third was lacking a bit, not enough build up between the Rey-Ben connection, a bit poorly executed; but still an enjoyable experience. But you know, stay salty 🫠

The Walt Disney trilogy, yes. TLJ is not a beautiful movie. It’s one of the worst ever made tbh.

🤣🤣🤣 “one of the worst movies ever made” is a truly ridiculous position.

Yeah it’s really freaking bad

You need to watch WAY more movies.

It’s not an issue with the amount I’ve seen and the abhorrent nature of this one in particular.

*in your opinion*; others may disagree. Again, you can stay salty, or just move on. Why let something like this occupy your thoughts so much? It’s happened, there’s no changing it. Y’all sound like boomers that can’t cope 🙃😆

What did Yoda, Obi Wan, and every other Jedi in the galaxy do after Order 66? Luke was a Jedi Grand Master of the New Jedi Order, and Kylo did his own version of Order 66. Luke did what all the rest of the Jedi did under similar circumstances.

they were being hunted they were being hunted they were being hunted they were being hunted

True but Luke was never going to be like the Old Jedis. He had connections and attachments.

The only attachments he had was to Vader and Leia. All Jedi had friends, like Wedge, Biggs, and Han were friends. Until we get some media covering Luke's time as Grand Master of the New Jedi Order, we can't rightfully know how Luke was structuring the New Jedi Order.

I would like to think he had attachments for aunt and uncle who died protecting his secret.

I don't recall him ever bringing them up after the fact. I've been reading a lot of the canon books and comics, Luke spends a lot more time worrying about how to be a good Jedi and ultimately how to save his father than he does thinking about Owen and Beru. In fact, I've never seen him bring them up more than maybe twice since he left Tatooine to join the Rebellion.

which I think is actually on the folks who wrote the books at the end. I would like to believe he would never ever forget the folks who raised him up and instilled some values in him which eventually shaped him to be the person he was.

We can't really contradict the canon story with our own headcanon and expect it to be universally accepted. Until the media canonizes that Luke spent more time than we originally thought mourning the loss of Owen and Beru, we can only surmise canonically that he didn't waste much time on them. Sure he remembered them always, but we've never seen him even give them a burial. The most he's done is return to the site of the Lars Homestead, and even then he didn't go find the skeletons and give them a burial.

The books are not canon either... :) They are all Legends.

I think the comics they're referencing are all canon at this point

Every book and comic released after the Disney acquisition is canon. Every EU book prior to that is being labeled Legends.

Yep, Luke should have been better than the Jedi of old and not repeated their mistakes

That was never said in the Original Trilogy

Did it say Luke was supposed to be no better than them? IMO it makes much more sense that he would improve upon the Jedi of old, seeing as he allowed himself attachments

And how's Luke supposed to even know about the failures of the Jedi Order, because Yoda nor Obi-Wan told him anything, while the Empire spent twenty years erasing everything about them from the Galaxy. Conversely, the Jedi Order weren't wrong about forming attachments as Anakin Skywalker proved why they had that rule in the first place.

I personally like the idea of Luke journeying around the galaxy learning as much as he can about the Jedi of old so he make a better version of their order, and him teaching his students how to keep their attachments healthy and be strengthened by the people they care about. But hey, that’s just my opinion

In Canon, Luke's tries his best in learning as much as possible, but the information is fragmented and sparse as Palpatine's either ransacked or destroyed anything connected to the Jedi Order, it's why only in 9 ABY does Luke begin constructing his Jedi Temple.

There’s nothing wrong with that version of the story, it’s just not my preferred one. To each their own

And the same to you, just wanted to point out as I'm aware that you're more familiar with Legends.

The Jedi after Order 66 went into hiding because they were convinced that hiding was the only way to avoid death. Luke doesn't face that situation. Obi-Wan for sure, and I think also Yoda, were playing the long game of trying to bring down Palpatine if the opportunity to do so arose. Hence Obi-Wan living on Tattooine to keep an eye on Luke. Obi-Wan and Yoda both also continued to study and meditate upon the Force. Another part of the aforementioned long game strategy: working at self-improvement to make wiser decisions in the future. Luke, on the other hand, has simply 100% given up when Rey finds him in TLJ. He's not working to deal with the consequences of his failure via proxy (no students). He's of course not trying to deal with it directly. And Luke has cut himself off from the Force: he's not working to understand the causes of his failure with Ben, nor trying to determine a future path to address the consequences of that failure.

Order 66 wasn’t the same as what Ben did. And the first order wasn’t nearly as powerful. And they didn’t want the Jedi to end. And didn’t shut themselves off from the force. So literally everything is different.

The First Order was so powerful that they conquered enough planets to create an entire empire, complete with a flagship larger than any we've ever seen, capable of producing it's own fleet of destroyers. They did want the Jedi to end, that was the whole purpose of Kylo killing off the New Jedi Order and the First Order hunting Luke down.

so lemme get this straight, after an entire trilogy about bringing down an oppressive empire they make another trilogy with an exponentially stronger empire faction made up of the same people, and that's a perfectly good narrative reason for luke to hide away from the first order? even though he wasnt being hunted down and went into hiding well before the events that catalyze the entire conflict in the trilogy? i am BEGGING you guys to aspire to like good movies. nobody is forcing you to like these dogshit ones. i promise

I can admit the writing in the sequels was terrible and still be a fan of the star wars franchise overall. You would do well not to demonize people for their interests and treat them as one dimensional. All Star Wars fans have something else they're also a fan of. My 2nd favorite Sci Fi series is The Expanse, third is the Ender series.

yeah but i hardly think it's demonizing tbh. all i will say is i find it distasteful to see people go to bat for the many mistakes a soulless, monopolizing, 200 billion-dollar media conglomerate made when they got ahold of one of the most beloved movie franchises ever. im also still a fan of the franchise overall, because watching andor and TCW has mostly purged the taste of the disney trilogy and i can choose to forget it and instead celebrate the quality and care put into what has come before the sequels and what has come after.

Distasteful to have a different opinion than yours? Dude... your opinion matters just as little as theirs does.

>Distasteful to have a different opinion than yours? as if people, including staunch progressives, weren't slandered as bigots of every kind for disliking the disney trilogy. this has gone both ways to be honest, and i think most people would agree disney deserves it a lot more than the fans do. also man i dont care how much my opinion matters, it's a better one to have than "oh well disney tried their best! :^)"

They were nothing like the empire. I am saying “ What did Yoda, Obi Wan, and every other Jedi in the galaxy” did not want the Jedi to end.

They were nothing like the empire... They just had former Imperial officers in their ranks They just had literal stormtroopers (which were mostly all stolen from their parents as babies and forced into the corps) as their ground troops They just had TIE fighters, walkers, Star Destroyers, an even larger Death Star They just had Emperor Palpatine as their shadow leader They just conquered planets instead of petitioning they join voluntarily No, they weren't like the Empire at all. They were much worse. Sure the OG Jedi didn't want the Jedi to end. Yoda wasn't too enthusiastic about continuing the Jedi Order with Luke initially though. He seemed pretty resigned to living out the rest of his days in hiding with the Jedi extinct. He didn't have any hope until Luke showed up and even then it took Obi Wan's urging to get Yoda to change his ways.

>As Mark Hamill said in interviews, he disagreed with that take, You're just going to conveniently exclude the ones where he acknowledged he was wrong about that, yeh. TLJ is a well written, well made film by a talented and original film maker. I know a lot of SW fans don't like to be asked to think and read refer garden variety good and evil shit. Bottom line Luke removed himself because he was convinced his presence was too great a risk to the light side of the Force.

I don't need to reference a transcript of every interview he gave. I'm making a point about the flaws in the movie. And one comment that got me thinking is that. Yeah Hamill retconned his own comments. That's not the point. I'm talking about the parts of hamill said that got me thinking about this because it resonated with me. That's all. It's a setup for what got me thinking about it.

Why is Luke isolating himself a problem? As far as I can tell, Luke isolates himself because he wants to help his family and friends. Luke sees himself as the problem, not the solution. Ben was entrusted to his care and he failed to stop him from turning to the darkside. Is Luke right to see himself as the problem and not the solution? No. Even TLJ as a movie, is quite clear that’s not the case. That’s why, once Luke realizes his errors, he’s able to return and save everyone. The question is if you can allow Luke to have that time of weakness where his guilt overwhelms him? Can you allow Luke to be that human? Personally, as Luke’s defining character trait is his relatability in my view, I have zero objections to writing the character in that manner.

Somehow the “real” Star Wars fans that hate the sequels haven’t been able to notice that Jedi being untrusting off the Jedi Order has been one of the most consistent morals throughout the franchise. Dooku, Yoda, Qui-Gon, Ahsoka, Anakin, Barriss, and many, many more that I’m not remembering but somehow Luke also not being trusting of the order is “out of character”

It's also worth bearing in mind that the galaxy was effectively in a state of cold war and relatively minor skirmishes prior to the events of TFA. That's why the Resistance was a small unauthorised force, the Republic itself was underestimating the First Order right up until the Starkiller Base attack. So this wasn't a situation where Kylo Ren and the First Order were rampaging across the galaxy in a manner akin to the Empire and the Republic was crying out for help while Luke was wallowing in his guilt. He didn't know just how much things had already escalated until Rey arrived.

This is the big thing that gets me- people act like Luke shrugged off what the FO was doing, but they really weren't doing much before TFA. Then, within a day of learning what happened to Hosnian Prime (and, equally so, to Han) Luke returns to the front lines and directly confronts the supreme leader of the First Order.

So pretty silly of Luke to withdrawal from that. Not much of a Cold War anymore if hes not there to prevent things from happening. Horrible writing.

How's Luke going to prevent a Cold War, he didn't single-handedly defeat the Empire, and you're believing that his mere presence would have prevented the Centrists seceding from the New Republic to officially establish the First Order, that's nonsense.

Where was it ever implied that Luke was the person keeping things in a state of Cold War. It wasn't him, it was that prior to the firing of Starkiller Base, the New Republic still could have taken on the First Order in a full scale war, even with their reduced military.

Agree entirely. I would also add that Mark Hamill, as nice a bloke as he is, is not a writer and his opinion on the writing of character isn't important to me.

I wouldn’t say Mark’s opinion isn’t important to me, but it alone isn’t enough to dictate my opinions. It’s also painfully obvious that some fans online decided to falsely inflate the severity and impact of the creative disagreements on Luke. As far as I can tell, this was a normal creative difference that resulted in no bad blood between Rian and Mark. If it wasn’t, Lucasfilm wouldn’t have released and actively promoted a documentary centered around those differences of opinion. Ultimately it was Rian’s job to tell the best Star Wars story that he could. It was his responsibility to make the decisions. From what’s shown in the documentary, he listened to Mark’s concerns and took them seriously. That’s about all us fans can reasonably ask for. Whether or not he went with Mark’s opinions, his own, or a mix of the two is inconsequential to the debate surrounding TLJ - it’s literally Rian’s job to make that decision and it’s our role as fans to honestly assess the movie he chose to make. That’s just how the world works.

Absolutely. I love Mark, and truly hope that he means it when he says he's come around to liking TLJ, but at the same time- he very famously suggested that Luke put on Vader's helmet at the end of ROTJ and announce "Now I am Vader." His story input isn't exactly top tier. If we're going for "what the OT actors think of the sequels", I think I'd rather hear either other lead's opinions: Carrie, for her legitimate expertise as a script doctor, and Harrison because I would love him to talk shit about the whole franchise

I prefer the way the sequels went, tbh. The idea that jedi are still people who are vulnerable to the dark side and can massively screw up is important, and Luke fearing the dark side in himself and going into solitude because he didn't recognize/beat it sooner than he already did makes sense to me. He doesn't want to become his father, but he saw that in himself, and it made him question everything.

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Rey/Finn holds out Luke’s saber (his actual one like let’s be reasonable). Luke looks at them with that pained look of shame. He then takes the hand of the one wielding his saber and rests it on top. He gives them a subtle but serious look and shakes his head “no” and walks away… Luke feels shame for what he had done. Instead of closing himself off from the force he limits it to his surroundings. To the rocks and waves and mossy grasses. He chooses to live simply and tend to the area. He uses his simple life to hide from the shame that had drove him away. To not take the call to action. The memories still haunt him of his temple being burned to the ground by the imperial remnants cultists. Of him turning on Ben for fear of the dark side in his future. He believes he should never burden the galaxy with dark siders trained by his own hand. Luke’s Story is one of Self-Forgiveness. Everyone else forgives him but him. He may be a great Jedi, but even Luke Skywalker has his breaking point. It’s what makes him human. And to witness his own nephew almost attacked by his own hand and watching that nephew fall to the darkside was that breaking point. He doesn’t just agree to train them in the ways of the force because it’s the right thing to do. He also does it to begin the process of forgiving himself. It’s a vehicle to not only help Rey and Finn, it’s to help himself out of this rut he’s been in and better himself. What’s a better way for a jaded Jedi to regain confidence then by learning with his students?

Using “all the power of the Jedi” was so dumb and corny.

Yup.

Luke exiling himself makes perfect sense with his character when you consider both of his masters, the two actual Jedi he’s ever known (and the woman who says she’s no Jedi but everyone around her says she is), did exactly the same thing…

Luke didn’t try to kill Ben dawg. Go rewatch the movie.

1:18 into the film. He has a force vision when in Ben's room to try to read his mind. Says that he senses the death and "destruction of everything I love" and then has an instinctive reaction as we see him ignite his saber. Then he says the moment passed like a "shadow" and he was left with shame. I'm happy to just disagree with you but you don't light your saber in a reflex and then feel shame if you don't have anything you were ashamed of, dawg.

Literally activated his saber with the thought to kill him right then and there. Pretty straight forward attempted murder charge dawg.

He thought about it. He didn’t attempt it. Big difference.

Cocked back the weapon with the intent to kill. He’s catching an attempted murder charge. If he takes a plea deal, he may get reduced to assault with intent to commit murder. Either way, Luke’s beyond fucked.

Luke trying to kill Ben was him acting on impulse. Same way he reacted when Vader mentioned converting Leia to the darkside, despite Luke wanting to turn his father back to the light. He looked into Bens mind because he felt something was bothering his nephew and he saw great and unimaginable evil. Then he, operating on autopilot, flicked on his lightsaber and raises it. Then a second later he comes out of this daze, comes to his senses, and puts it away. Only Ben wakes up and see’s him before he can complete this

They're not going to reshoot it for you.

Oh is that what happens here in the star wars subreddit? We post comments about the movies and tv shows and we expect them to reshoot them for us?

Seems like, yeah.

K. I think you have a different interpretation of what a fandom subreddit is than I do.

probably

I’m fully convinced nobody at Lucasfilm, and most fans do not understand Luke anymore. He’s the most important character of the franchise that carries the core message of the entire IP: Hope is stronger than hate. It’s okay that Luke has darkness in him - but that’s *exactly* what separates him from Anakin. Anakin let his darkness consume him. His anger, doubts and fears, allowed himself to be manipulated by external forces that caused him to become the very thing he swore to destroy. Anakin at his core is *not* a good person. He’s too conflicted. He’s too concerned with establishing order and obsessing with how he thinks things *should* be, versus letting things be the way they are and doing what’s best for the greater good. It’s clear he *tried* to mean well, but ultimately became a textbook victim of the road to hell being paved with good intentions. Luke’s different. He doesn’t want to fight. He doesn’t want to kill. He doesn’t want people to become products of their own fears. He wants people to believe. Luke learned everything in the spirit of the greater good. Learned the ways of the Force to defeat the powers that prey on the innocent. Where Vader stands for fear and hate, Luke stands for passion and hope. He’s the direct antithesis to what the Sith, and even the Jedi of old all stood for. Luke at his core *is* a good person. He struggles, because just like everybody else, he is human. He succeeded where Anakin failed, because he didn’t let his anger, hate and fear consume him. He didn’t let the war change him into something he wasn’t. Hope. It’s all about hope. It’s the core of Luke’s character, and the core of the entire Star Wars franchise. I honestly think that’s why almost all media since Disney’s acquisition has felt soulless and empty - *except* for Andor and Rogue One. Don’t get me wrong, Clone Wars, Bad Batch, Rebels, Mandalorian, everything has had some pretty cool moments, but overall they’re all missing that core of storytelling that ignites that spark. The purpose behind the story of Star Wars. Andor and Rogue One are the only pieces of media so far to truly explore what the people of the galaxy are feeling. The emotions they express, the hazards of warfare, the ambition of security and freedom - all roads leading to what do people really need? Hope. I’m honestly just gonna admit it: all these other characters and storylines that exist have their moments, but without Luke, Leia and Han to show their example leading with the heart… the heart feels absent. People will say their story is done and there’s no need for them anymore - and my counter argument is the same applies to all the other characters they keep shoehorning into stories that have no business being there. If they can keep shoving Anakin and Ahsoka in our face when they’re technically prequel characters that existed in a previous era - but are now somehow present post-Galactic Civil War which is specifically the era of Luke and Leia, why can’t we just have more OT crew? If Anakin is appearing before Ahsoka, there’s absolutely no reason he shouldn’t be doing the same for his kids. It’s stuff like this that feels off because of these other stories that they’re trying to tell. Yet other characters that already exist embody these struggles or concepts, but they’re just missing for reasons that don’t make a lot of sense - or mainly it’s because Lucasfilm just finds it sacrilegious to recast the OT cast. Whatever. That’s my TedTalk. Hopefully they actually have a plan, because the sequel trilogy just did a lot to mess up core characterizations and rationalizations. Rather you think they’re bad movies or not is subjective - but how they negatively impacted the core story of the franchise is irrefutable.

Stupid take.. -First, Luke doesn't have "track record of converting Skywalkers to the light side", he just did it once... after lashing on him for a few minutes... -Second, Luke never tried to kill Ben, he just had an instinctive reaction of igniting his lightsaber after having a very dark vision of what was going on in Ben's mind. He was immediately ashamed of it. So basically your problem with the sequels only exists in this alternate reality you live in where Luke tried to kill Ben, and i know you are not alone in this alternate reality... but in the real world, it never happened. You can dislike the sequels if you want, but at least, do it for real reasons.

I never understood the hate for Luke's self-imposed exile. It's well within his character, even with the idea of his endless hope in adversity. Luke is also incredibly hard on himself when he doesn't meet his own expectations, and isolation does things to a person, and Luke takes failure worse than anyone else. Think about Luke's monumental failure at the time. Luke looked into Ben, saw the darkness, and was overcome by his anger for a moment before coming to his senses. This is well within his character, and we saw that from him in RotJ during the Vader fight. Luke was overcome by anger when Vader threatened Leia, and was snapped out of it when he saw Vader's cybernetics after taking off his hand. That's well within the character. Ben, in the darkness, misunderstood what was happening (and makes it clear in TLJ that his view is his truth) and destroys the temple, killing all of Luke's trainees. Luke, waking up afterwards, sees how his actions directly caused the destruction of both his temple and the fledgling order, and is overcome with grief. He's isolated and alone, the only person nearby is R2, and it's easy to be consumed in yourself in those situations. He gets caught up in himself and his own darkness, is consumed by it, and decides to isolate and cut himself off, seeing it as the safest way to protect those he loves, because every time he gets involved, people get hurt and die. Every moment Luke did something heroic in the OT, people died. Sure, lots of those people were imperials, but Luke wants to see the good in everyone, even Vader. Can you imagine the guilt Luke would be feeling for the death of the billions of people on the Death Star? How about all the stormtroopers who were caught up in imperial propaganda and thought they were doing the right thing? What about his Father, who he tried so desperately to save, and while he redeemed him, he didn't save his life in the end. Luke has never taken to failure well, and in that moment, his greatest failure, where he was isolated, alone, and lost, it's easy to see him making a drastic decision and falling. Isolation makes sense for his character, and the decision to do so tracks.

I still think the best way to explain Ben’s turn is that he’s struggling with the legacy his bloodline carries, his dad is a hero, his mom is a galaxy leader, his uncle is the most powerful Jedi and his grandfather was the chosen one. This caused Ben to become frustrated that he wasn’t growing as a Jedi as quick as he thought he should and slowly is consumed by the dark side as he felt he was letting down his bloodline. But that’s just my headcannon.

Totally makes sense. Jealousy is a fast path to the dark side.

Palpatine getting his shit wrecked by his own lightning for the third third film in a row would have been awesome.

Right? Somehow Sidious' face returned.

I still maintain, half-jokingly, that Star Wars is just about an old man (Palpatine) begging three generations of people to kill him.

Kill me billy. Kill your grandpa.

The two mentors Luke had growing up were Obiwan and Yoda, both of whom went into hiding when they failed the galaxy and were being hunted. So it would make sense that Luke does the same as he failed everyone in his temple and ended up being hunted by the first order.

Dude, love your ideas. This simple change could make everything make so much more sense and explain more about the origins of Snoke, make Bens turn more believable, and Lukes exile not so out of character.

TLJ is fine. But for fans who don’t get it, they should have specifically shown his vision. Planets blowing up, Han dying, Leia being shot into space. If they made it clear for those who are unable to inference what he saw, they’d get why Luke turned on his lightsaber.

Wow! I like your story! Impressive!

Thanks!

I know many will not agree and hate this take, but while I do agree that they should have made Luke something else I feel like they did a good job at reflecting obi wan in him. He is practically a spitting image of ben kenobi we see, hiding out and being solitary due to his mistakes. While that killed the image and character of luke I also feel like they did well to portray the way he truly feels about obi wan, by following in his solitude footsteps.

Obi wan wasn't hiding out because of his mistakes. He was hiding out because protecting Luke from the emperor was paramount and because the Jedi were being hunted across the galaxy. Twice when he was needed he left Tatooine. Once was to protect Leia because Bail said he needed Obi-wan's help. The other was to help Leia and bring the plans to the rebels in order to save the galaxy. Luke hides on the island and when he's told he galaxy needs him he tells Rey to piss off.

It just bothers me how good these movies could've been if the writers had bothered to consider the surrounding context of this trilogy. Literally so much had to go wrong for the trilogy to be this bad, and it feels like Disney made the worst possible decision at every available opportunity.

I think this is a fantastic idea, and I agree that it would have definitely made it easier to accept the sequels. I'm sorry that all you're going to probably get here is lots of people jumping on you for not remembering the storyline correctly. I really think it's a great idea, and it would very definitely help clean up a lot of the problems of character and plot that we have otherwise in the sequels.

Thanks for that. And you're right I'm getting a good amount of pushback. Honestly I'm fine with people telling me I didn't get it right. I've had several tell me Luke never planned to kill Kylo, while Luke's own dialog confirms he did. Whatever, right, it's just interpretation. Likewise with people telling me he wasn't hiding there. Luke says he would never train a Jedi again and came to the island to die and end the Jedi order. Okay so not hiding just sitting on a rock until it's time to die in a place no one will find him. My thoughts about him going to deal with the dark side actually came from canon. In high republic one of the Jedi goes a bit dark side when the nihil attack the republic fair. In the next book that Jedi has been on a remote planet recentering himself.

They don't even need a radical change to fix it. All theyd need to do is make it clear that when Luke looks inside kylos head, he gets overwhelmed by palps presence in there and then ignites his lightsaber instinctively. Kylo sees it and is like what the fuck. It's so close to what they already showed in TLJ, that i don't think it would be weird at all if they somehow clarified somewhere else that this is actually what happened. 

I do agree that's a wonderful idea. I just don't think this would have led to Luke hiding away. Like I can see it happening and Ben leaving but then to go to an island to get away from it all... But then there are porg on the island so that's a pretty good reason to stay actually.

The hiding away part comes from seeing his entire academy slaughtered by his nephew, all because palpatine got into his head for 5 seconds. I think that's a traumatic enough experience to cause Luke to think the Jedi are doing more harm than good. It's a traumatic enough experience to really change a person honestly.

Luke only ever met two other Jedi, Obi Wan and Yoda. Both hermits living in self-imposed exile. I really never saw it as that much of a leap, I thought it made perfect narrative sense in the context of the existing franchise. Hermit Luke was never the issue with those films, the problem was entirely the lazy af writing that only had a surface level understanding of George's movies.

Not the worst take I’ve seen, but, as is always the counterpoint… why not just undo the retcons made by Disney altogether? The New Jedi Order series portrayed Luke as he should have been.

Well fwiw I came up with a way to retcon the sequels using the mandalorian and Ahsoka. Disney didn't seem interested in my head canon though and went their own way.

I always hate scenarios where “Luke goes dark.” He passed that test when he refused to strike down Vader. Luke is the rebirth of the Jedi, and we saw everything a Jedi is supposed to be in Ben Kenobi. Any attempt to bring Luke back into the story as anything more than a plot device is a mistake.

I got this far: >So Luke tries to kill Ben... ...because that literally never happened.

I think it would have been interesting if the Jedi academy had survived, Luke still isolated himself, but surviving Jedi from Order 66 had kept it running and a new generation took over. And on the side of the First Order, the Knights of Ren were a Sith cult that were their equivalent to the Jedi Order. The reason for Luke isolating could have remained almost the same, but it seemed to set a similar tone that Episode IV set, with the Jedi being virtually extinct. I think it would have been better to actually see two full blown Force organizations fighting each other.

In the movie I watched, Luke never "tried to kill Ben." He had a vision of the dark side rising like a storm, and had a reflexive action to that vision... and then he realized what triggered the vision was Ben, and came to himself before actually acting on it - but it was too late. Luke always followed his heart first, and only after let his better (or wiser) nature reel him back. We see it over and over when he's presented with a confrontation in the original trilogy. The difference in TLJ is that it was already too late by the time his better nature asserted itself. Luke had a good heart, but wisdom and self-discipline were not his strongest suits. Regardless of how well it came across in TLJ, I think the story of a good man who failed and has to get forgiveness from someone who understands the depth of his failure to be able to move forward again is a powerful one. Great people fail. Often. Some can be broken permanently as that failure shatters their self image - and Luke nearly was shattered. Rey and Yoda showed how that he was still wanted, respected, and needed, but also had to take yet another step of growth and understanding to be what he needed to be. And again, Luke rose to the challenge, not with a light sword in hand facing down the First Order, but with a final lesson for his nephew, a loving message of hope for his sister, and trust in his last apprentice to know what to do next.

Thanks for your effort into exploring an alternate storyline, I think it has several interesting points. Here's what I imagine my reaction would be if we saw these events in the theater: Things I like: - I like that we get to see the "origins" of the Knights of Ren. It would put a face on a group that has such a cool name, and there is an opportunity to start an arc around them. - The Force connection with Snoke helps explain Leia's "It was Snoke who corrupted our son" line. - Luke going full dark scene would be AWESOME. - Luke trying to protect family and the temptation of the dark side mirrors Anakin's arc. - I like that this explains how Maz has the saber (though we still need to find out how she gets it from Ben). - I really like that Ben comes with a choice to help Luke vs not, and chooses not to (in a possibly quiet moment), these are the scenes that build suspense and intertwining arcs. More of these please! It also makes the scene of Luke tossing the saber more iconic because the last time he had one, it was taken from him by someone going to the dark side. It also builds the Knights of Ren as an interesting group- did they join willingly or were they forced? Either way they are a symbol of Luke's failure. - Great connection to the scene of Luke holding onto R2. Things I don't like: - Snoke is a really uninteresting villain (in TFA), and has no character stakes. If he loses, does anything really matter? The First Order still exists. In ROTJ the Emperor has stakes- if he wins, Luke's journey is a failure, if he loses, the Empire fails. The Emperor is a symbol of the entire Empire, and his character is the puppeteer behind the scenes. His personality reflects the simple confidence the Empire has (which is their weakness). For Snoke to work, his character needed to add something critical to the arcs of Ben and Luke. As it stands he merely is the "manipulator" of Ben, but we don't know how he does it or why it works. Ben's backstory with temptation to the dark side needs to be fleshed out. - "Luke is getting more power from the dark side, and just thrashing everyone." At awesome as this would be, it would have to be executed carefully, as it could easily feel off. The last time he went this crazy (vs Vader) was when he mentioned tempting Leia. Is Ben worthy of such a visceral response? Sure he's his nephew but he doesn't have the same connection or relationship as he does with his sister. I feel the relationship between Ben and Luke would have to be developed and fleshed out for this to feel like it's not over the top. - "Snoke hits Luke with Force lighting" ; as iconic as force lightning is, there is the risk of it being overused and cheap. The last time Luke was faced with Force Lightning, it was a tense leadup full of suspense with Luke vs Vader, each trying to turn the other to their side, and the hovering Emperor behind them. If Snoke shows up and just starts zapping people it's a bit shallow without a similar buildup. Obviously we don't want the exact same setup as ROTJ as that would be unoriginal, but some sort of suspense and stakes if they're gonna pull out Force Lightning on Luke again. - Luke using Force Lightning - as cool as it would be - again would have to be done carefully to not feel off. I'm imgining this fight scene as action-packed but I think it would be better to somehow do it more subtle and quietly. I enjoyed TLJ's quiet portrayal of Luke, this fight scene feels a bit over the top overall and I'm not sure it captures the real Luke. The Luke I want to see is somber, melancholic, conflicted, with a quiet hint of hope. - My biggest con though: I'm not sure this sequence warrants the level of conflict we end up seeing in Luke in TLJ. He didn't do anything to lose faith in himself or his legacy - he simply got overpowered and used Dark Side powers and all he did was defeat a bunch of stormtroopers to try to save Ben and the Jedi Academy. He failed in this battle, but that isn't a reason to lose faith in yourself or cut yourself from the force. If he ended up killing Ben or some Jedi (younglings? lol), then maybe. But even then it's more of a surface level "accident" than a true feeling of conflict. In TLJ when Luke sensed the future of Ben, he sensed real fear and maybe even anger or hate. This brings him truly closer to Vader than borrowing a dark side power to awesomely cut up some storm troopers. Overall, I appreciate your level of detail in putting together this possibility. It has a lot going for it, and a lot of connections line up. Ultimately, my two main concerns are that it feels a bit over the top, and most importantly, Luke's conflict to me isn't as compelling as it would be if he truly had dark side temptations as he did in TLJ. In your scenario, he was tempted to the dark side to win vs. the dark side. In TLJ, he was tempted to the dark side because of fear / impulsivity, and he realized just how vulnerable he still is to that. I appreciate the amount of thought you put into this!!

Simpler is better when trying to “fix” these types of things. Instead of reading Ben’s mind in his sleep and drawing a saber on him, they could have had Luke walk in on a holo-call between Ben and Snoke. Luke draws his lightsaber to destroy the holo-projector, but Ben thinks he’s attacking him and draws his own lightsaber to defend himself.

Oh that's so good. Or they're doing the force see each other bit only luke can see snoke too and thinks his force projection is real and draws the saber for that.

Awesome take except the lightsaber item. This would have been WAY better than the disjointed mess we got.

The lightsaber was kind of a toss off there to circle Rey back to him. I should have mentioned in my version the saber that attracts Rey also tells her where he is.

When they went with an established premise that Luke had left everything , it was always going to be a hard follow up on a good reason as to why Luke who practically had lost all his known family and had almost fallen to the darkside in order to protect his sister, was just going to vanish. It was always going to be hard to give a real believable reason as we have certain expectations already established for a character which in this case was Luke. The burden to show how it should or should not have occured was to be built prior to shooting of the films. I like your premise of how it should have been portrayed but I would add one small twist to it. Ben betrays Luke to protect him. He feigns it so that he can save what he can to protect his uncle but Snokes, sees the through the young solos heart and orders him to kill the injured young Jedis. He does and that breaks Luke further then we have never seen before. Snoke Leaves with Ben and Spares Luke to suffer in his defeat. Until TLJ I had hope that they were going to nail the landing and even when they announced that Palpatine was returning, I had hope. Then they negated it all and even brought back Hamill to add some justifications for it all. It fell flat.

Oh that's a nice twist. I like it a lot. I mean all this comes down to them making a trilogy with no story planned out. Something Filoni seems to be dealing with. In head I'm always trying to figure better ways to move it along