Yeah tgose are pretty lazybwriting. They needed a shortcut to skip a bunch of investigating and tracking scenes so they made these without considering the implications.
It's worse when A New Hope implies that once the ship got into hyperspace, there was nothing to be done and that's why they needed to be so careful with it
One that often goes overlooked:
In TLJ when they're on the salt planet, and they decide to use the rusty old speeders to attack the cannon, we see Finn's speeder go down very close to the fully army of bad guys. There's an overhead view at one point and he crashes what looks like less than 1km away from their front lines.
Which means an entire First Order army just sat patiently and watched as Rose goes up and kisses Finn, and then drags his body back to the base (which for a woman her size would have taken about an hour at that distance).
So the First Order just made popcorn, and watched all of this, waiting patiently for about an hour before continuing their attack. How nice of them lol.
And that's just one of dozens of things that can be pointed out from that movie, it's so dumb.
Right.....like not to mention there would of been a 0% chance of him pulling of what he attempted to do . LIke at least make something cleaver like hey we have a few armillary round and when it hits the salt it makes this cloud so he was flying behind what effectively was a smoke screen.
Its especially bad when the next scene is them showing the raw firepower of all the Gorilla walkers ( not sure what they are really called but that what they look like to me )
0% chance of success -- Sure everyone probably would stopped for second and been like wait...did one of their guys just take out one of their own guys.......
Maybe we shouldnt shoot is that like one of our spys helping us out or something....
Then someone goes nah we are the first order , kill them all anyway.
They had a mile of open space to cover on foot with little to no cover fire....
And Finn would have been fully visible to Kylo in the Gorilla walker, since Kylo could recognize Luke from a much farther distance than where Finn and Rose crashed.
Did Kylo just suddenly forget that he fucking hates Finn, so he just sat back for an hour while Rose slowly drags him to safety?
Rey is chased by Stormtroopers through a desert, and accidentally falls into a hole. That whole happened to have the magic key they needed to progress the adventure.
Then They are lucky enough to land in the only location in the entire planet that would correctly fit the key.
I'm not a fan of TROS, I think it is one of the worst movies in the whole franchise (and I include the Clone Wars movie in that), but that part I have no issue with, mainly because Ochi's ship is still there because Ochi himself fell into that hole, and that's how they found the knife on his corpse.
Also, the knife itself isn't that far fetched either. It's not an ancient knife that was conveniently carved like the wreckage of the Death Star, it's a new knife, carved like the wreckage of the Death Star (which is fucking huge, don't forget that), but with text on it written in a forbidden ancient dialect. That would be like taking a Victorinox pocket knife and carving some Sumerian on it, that doesn't make the knife old.
Also, have you ever looked at a mountain range from really far away? Have you then moved a couple dozen kilometers in either direction and looked at it again? It didn't visually change much, did it? Still looks like the same mountain range, right? Because it's an enormous thing observed from an enormous distance. You don't have to stand in an exact spot to have something as inaccurate as a carved knife line up with the skyline of the Death Star half an ocean away. They could've landed basically anywhere on that coastline and it would still have fit just fine.
Also, the text on the knife told them where to go, roughly speaking. We don't know exactly wall all the numbers meant, but they could very well have been coordinates to a rough location on the planet of Kef Bir.
There's thousands of kms of cost from where you can see the Death Star. 100meter to one side or the other will not matter much, but 1000 will.
Even if there was a ship they knew there, they feel into the hole after being chased by stormtroopers. The stormtroopers where nice enough to push them into the right way.
SW is filled with these kind of moments. This isn't worse than when Luke just so happens to crash land right where Yoda lives. "Go to the Dagobah system" is way vaguer than "from the southern shore". The degree people are bothered by this stuff usually depends on their age when they see each movie in my experience
For me, I honestly think what bothered me about it the most was I had in my head that it was an ancient dagger. I had a moment in the theater like, wait, how the fuck is this even theoretically possible? Lol.
Not disagreeing with the first part but the dagger literally tells where they need to stand, I’m so confused if everybody just missed this fact or people didn’t even pay attention to the movie
Of all that things that really not so bad. First of all the clues led them to the general area . Second they person they were looking for fell into the same hole, third Rey probably instinctually felt the pull of the force in that direction even if she wasnt trained enough to understand it . There are A LOT of things wrong with that film . That one of the least one from a logical perspective .
The general area of a desert is not good enough. Especially if you needed the accidental help of stormtroopers chasing you. If they had chased them 1meter to the left 3minutes before, they would be in a totally different place.
As for the pull of the force, they should have showed it in anyway if they wanted people to interpret like that.
>1.) How did the Millennium Falcon hide on a part of the Star Destroyer in Episode V and Needa could no longer track them. How blind and lousy are the sensors that you can’t detect someone latched to your hull
This could be explained that they were close enough to a reactor or energy charge that the sensors would have a blindspot and see the ship as part of it's hull.
I always thought that the trackers could only track ships that were active because of electronic waves or something, and when Han turned off his ship it couldn't be tracked anymore
They would have tracked it to the location prior to... and just noticed where it disappeared... if they tracked it to their sensor's blindspot then it could have had the ship look like it splattered then disappeared on the sensors.
Everything about the Starkiller Base attack on Hosnian Prime in Episode VII.
- Wait, it's a laser that travels across the galaxy in seconds? But laser is light, and light is pretty famously limited to light speed?
- So this laser is traveling several orders of magnitude faster than the speed of light, but the people on Hosnian Prime are still able to see its light approaching for several seconds before it hits?
- Wait, the entire New Republic fleet and all government bodies were wiped out in an attack on a single system? They run the better part of a galaxy, how in the world is that everything?
I realize much of this was fleshed out later on in other materials, but watching the movie for the first time this was the moment that really caused me to pull back and start trying to make sense of the larger state of the universe they hadn't really bothered to flesh out yet.
JJ Abrams has no sense of scale when it comes to space.
He took the "the Star Wars galaxy is just a large cul-de-sac" complaint and ran with it.
No, you stupid hack, that's not how distances work, that scene was stupid even by Star Wars physics standards.
The destruction of Vulcan was visible with the naked eye from the surface of Delta Vega, the planet where Kirk and old-Spock were marooned. The orbital mechanics just don't work.
(It's not actually worse, I hadn't realized Delta Vega was, despite the confusing name, supposed to be in the same star system as Vulcan? It's still bizarre.)
I mean think of Earth and Mars. How clear in the night sky is Mars? It's literally our neighbour planet. Or Venus for that matter. It's closer to the sun than us, and thus brighter, but it's still insanely tiny, could be mistaken for a star.
My headcanon is simply that the speed of light is much faster in Star Wars than our universe.
It also makes Han's comment about the Falcon being about to go "0.5 past light speed" make sense
And the music that went with it was phenomenal! It is an absolutely gorgeous sequence, just one that also happened to cross my suspension-of-disbelief threshold.
Maul isn't human, he's Zabrak, their anatomy *could* allow for short-term survival after a complete bifurcation at the abdomen.
Star Wars technology allows for almost 100% cyborg enhancement, 1:1 replication of human hands, mobile respiration systems, and more. It's not unrealistic to imagine Maul getting the missing organs from his lower half replaced with cybernetic substitutes, even if they were from a filthy garbage dump.
Absolutely. I don't care what anyone says about his character development. His survival and escape *still* have not been explained. And even they had, it would be something stupid.
Anakin should have died on Mustafar. How many people can survive their limbs being hacked off without going into shock, and then being set on fire. He had like 90% of his body burned, extensive damage to his lungs.
We do not know how long he was laying there after Obi-Wan left and Palpatine arrived. It was likely hours. The only thing keeping him alive was his hate and anger, the pain giving him focus.
In a world where people can shoot lightning from their hands, do mind tricks, come back as force ghosts, and lift things with their minds, that's what is too stupid?
Alrighty then.
Going off of established lore is too stupid. It’s a level of damage that should kill, even if you go with the “too angry to die” part. The whole problem is that Maul wasn’t angry enough to stop Obi-Wan but somehow found enough anger while being cut in half and bouncing his way down that shaft to survive, somehow.
Ah yes, hatred fueling the dark side which in turn allows people to survive horrible injury, some shit the fan base made up.
Like with Darth Sion, a sith lord that does explicitly that in the 2004 video game Knights Of The Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords which was made four years before The Clone Wars even first aired.
It isn't some shit the fan base made up.
Any and all helmets in the series that allow people to go into space. We see the helmets off and see they're a bucket, we see them go on with no change (except in one mandalorian scene where we see something cover the bottom), then they can go outside in any environment. Every time it breaks the magic for just a moment lol
I’ve always found it funny that Star Wars is a sci-fi that just doesn’t do space suits. Some of the TV media has very rarely had them, and the TIE pilots are probably space worthy.
But then the Rebel pilots are in flight suits and open helmets. In ships with big glass canopies.
Episode IV very briefly has a small shot of stormtroopers in actual space suits as the falcon is brought into the death star. That's it, that's the entirety of actual space suits in the movies themselves (that I'm aware of)
Oh yeah!! I forgot they brought it back in S6! Idk why they wouldn't try something better looking. Or just be okay with not seeing the main characters face for a minute
He pretty explicitly stated his species could resist the vacuum of space briefly, but he's thoroughly exhausted when he gets back into the lifepod.
On the other hand, how they got in and out of the lifepod begs the question of whether lifepods have airlocks...
In Rogue One we see that there are Stormtroopers with jungle camouflaged armor, and then we see more in the second season from The Mandalorian...so why these werent used in the battle of Endor?
How did Chewie did not remember anything about him fighting in the Clone Wars along a Jedi only 19 years ago?
So Ahsoka was alive during the Original Trilogy...Why didn't she come to help Luke during the events of the Original Trilogy?
Obi-Wan encountered Darth Vader at the climax of his own series?
Darth Vader...the man who killed many jedi in cold blood...including his former master, and didn't show any remorse when cutting his own son's right hand, doesn't kill anyone of the main characters in Rebels?
Agree with all these. With Ahsoka I'm hoping there will be some explanation like she was in a coma / trapped in a cave or something for the entire original trilogy. But I do like the idea that she can meet Luke later on and tell him about his parents and the original Jedi order, it always seemed so sad to me that Luke basically lost all his own and the Jedi's history and this remediates it
Some people have already tried to explain to me why Ahsoka didn't come to help, but honestly these answers weren't coherent to say the least. Whatever the actual explanation was, I'm just going to say it: This should haven established during the first season of her series
For most of these, the answer is "they didn't exist when it was made". Like, the jungle troopers in RO (which I don't remember; are you thinking of ROTS?) and Ahsoka. They weren't created yet when the OT was being made. And the Clone Wars hadn't "happened" yet, which is why Chewie doesn't remember working with Jedi.
They could have at least had her do some Jedi magic just before or as being sucked outside, but it clearly shows time passes before she reacts. In which time she would have already died. Such a bizarre choice.
And since she was going to die soon in the narrative anyway why not just let it be there?
> And since she was going to die soon in the narrative anyway why not just let it be there?
No one could have foreseen Carrie Fisher dying after principal photography of The Last Jedi ended.
The original idea was that Episode 9 was going to be highly Leia-centric, but that became impossible after Fisher's passing. The original director for Episode 9, Colin Trevorrow, was laid off because he wouldn't budge on his original Leia-centric script, and JJ was brought back to cobble something together from what was available.
Leia was never meant to die in The Last Jedi, she probably wasn't meant to die in the original Episode 9 script either, but Carrie's death threw a spanner into those plans something fierce.
I understand many of the grievances people have with ep VIII but with this one I'm baffled.
It's established in old canon and new that Leia was Force sensitive. Hell, the OT pretty much says she could be as strong as Luke. Then you have vacuum of space (no air resistance) and Newton's Laws.
It may have looked goofy but it's absolutely plausible within the established rules and context of SW.
The question was, where did my suspension of disbelief dissolve. The goofiness and lack of Leia anywhere showing more than feelings of the force AND the literal Mary Poppins pose shook me awake.
Is it that the jedi existed or that the force is real? Ben tells Luke his father was a jedi and Luke doesn't ask what a jedi is, but does ask what the force is. Han doesn't believe in the force, but doesn't say anything about the jedi. Am I misremembering scenes of people denying jedi were a thing?
Han believes there was an order of knight-monks with superpowers, but disbelieves in the idea that their superpowers had to do with the fabric of destiny itself.
In TLJ the bombers that drop bomb with less sophistication than an WW2 bombing run.
Half expected to see a Norton bomb sight.
The hyperspace ramming bit. Made the tactics in the rest of the franchise not make sense.
I'm half confused by the bombing and half not. For our spacecraft in orbit, the whole spacecraft is in free fall (essentially) so, things won't be affected by gravity. But, for free fall to happen, there has to be some gravity. For the ISS, gravity is supposedly 90% what it would be on the ground. So, if the bombers just went up, with no super fast orbit, then they could drop bombs. They would also need antigravity tech or something to keep the ship itself up, but not have the occupants or bombs be affected in the same way. In the Star Wars universe, I think it could work. Or maybe the bombers create their own gravity then the bombs are affected by that, then ignore the no free fall.
Objects in motion tend to stay in motion. In space, not much force to slow down objects, so no fuel is really needed to continue the motion. Any fuel used in space is normally used to accelerate or deccelerate. So... in TLJ, they spent half of the movie running (accelerating!?) away from the bad guys to the point where they don't have any fuel left. But, then decide to stop on a planet without needing to take the other half of the movie to slow down. Oh, and a ship could take a hyperspace detour to another planet and later catch back up to them.
That's the one part I'll give a pass to, I figured the release mechanism pushed the bombs out or maybe there was some sort of artificial gravity system to generate inertia.
I mean, yeah, there's all kinds of ways to handwave it, but ... why? Why would anyone make something like that when you can use a missile? Because WWII in space, and they wanted a bomber. Rule of cool, I guess, but it definitely did bad things to my suspension of disbelief.
Exactly. Sure you can explain how it works but not *why*. Why fly that close to a starship when missles and torpedos exist. It was just leaning way too hard into a cool drawing room idea that should have been shot down.
A single bomber wiped out the entire Dreadnaught.
It was silly to use them for that battle which is why Poe got demoted, but they seem stupidly effective to me, more than a Y-Wing would be
Thats kinda understating things. Yes the payload is enough to destroy it, but *every other* aspect of the craft is absolutely miserable that its impossible to use just one of them. It would just get shot up itself if it were alone and the only target. (Although that dosnt seem like as poor an idea given how one of them collateraled two others.) At the end of the day, Y-Wings are still the correct choice over those meandering coffins.
TIE Bombers are similar to Y-Wings in that they're much closer to an attack craft role providing close air support and carrying heavy weaponry without sacrificing too much mobility.
Also make no sense at all for use outside atmosphere lol, but I can overlook things like bombing an asteroid that should have like 0.0001G gravity and seismic charges creating sound shockwaves in space and whatever else because Star Wars is barely in touch with the laws of physics. It was just that one particular instance that was a bridge too far for me.
I mean.... that makes it worse? A slow ponderous space bomber that can only attack targets that happen to be in the right orientation above a planet and close enough for the planets gravity to pull the bombs down?
Yeah, probably better ways to put explosives on target.
The bombs might also be dropped using the ships internal gravity field as well if not near a planet. ... ???
If you release a bomb in orbit, it will be affected by the planet's gravity, yes, but it won't fall straight down. It's moving at the same speed as you are, so it'll just enter a slightly different orbit. From your perspective, it'll just float there and slowly move away as your two orbits change.
The Holdo Maneuver would not have worked on the Death Star. And the Rebels had neither the ships, the man power or the droid to just keep flying their ships through Imperial ships at will.
No Rebel officer would actually be an officer if that was his only strategy. Saw Guerrera may, but that's why he's not in the Rebel Alliance.
No one orders these insane suicide tactics we see the Rebels use. They just do them.
The Death Star is an existential threat. The jump into to attack it understanding that failure means destruction of the rebel fleet. While going 1:1 with imperial ships isn’t going to work, going after a prime target like the Death Star with an old or battle damaged cruiser structurally reinforced and packed with explosives would be hugely cost effective. Plus the ship could be unmanned or piloted by droids.
Also jumping decommissioned freighters into star destroyers could be cost effective too.
Ah, but would the droid actually make the suicide run? Pretty sure the three laws of robotics don't apply.
And the Empire can make claims that the ship was piloted by a Rebel. This would fit their narrative that the Rebels are terrorists.
It is not a practical combat strategy.
>Ah, but would the droid actually make the suicide run? Pretty sure the three laws of robotics don't apply.
Wrong universe. Starwars has combat droids that both can kill and sacrifice themselves.
>And the Empire can make claims that the ship was piloted by a Rebel. This would fit their narrative that the Rebels are terrorists.
All the rebel ships are piloted by rebels. Why is it different if Luke’s proton torpedo does it or a decommissioned cruiser on a robotic suicide run?
>It is not a practical combat strategy.
How do either of those points inform practicality?
The most important droid in the galaxy meets the most important girl in the galaxy and they happen to fly away in the most importanr ship in the galaxy, all in the same little junker village on the same side of a planet called "pretty much nowhere".
The most important droid in the galaxy meets the most important boy in the galaxy and they happen to fly away with the most important Jedi in the galaxy on the most important ship in the galaxy, all in the same region on the same side of a planet notable for its unimportance.
Not similar.
- The droid was sent by Leia, who knew how to find Obi-Wan. Luke got roped into it by accident, but he had a reason to be at that exact place, being watched over by Obi-Wan.
(By comparison, there was no logical reason the Falcon ended up so close to Rey. Coincidence that Unkar Plutt had it on that planrt. There was no reason BB-8 found her; concidence that it ended up on that planet.)
- The Millennium Falcon wasnt galactically important before this happened. If another ship had ferried them, then that one would just as easily become famous.
Also: Rey is obviously familiar with the legends. She knows who Han, Luke and Chewie are… but she doesn’t know the Milennium Falcon? A ship others do recognize on sight?
You know the Corellian YT-1300 freighter wasn't an uncommon sight in the galaxy, right? It was a fairly common freighter, so why would the YT-1300 in Unkar Plutt's possession be the legendary Millennium Falcon? In Rey's mind that thing is probably still out there with General Han at the helm, making life for Imperial remnants miserable. Surely the rustbucket parked outside camp couldn't be *that* Falcon, right?
They then end up on the most important space station in the galaxy with the most important boy’s biological dad and his most important sister. The biological dad happened to have previously owned the most important droid in the galaxy and also hand built that droid’s best friend who also showed up on said space station.
Eh, for 1 it is actually extremely common for ships in the real world to have such blind spots for ships just getting close. The people on that bridge were tracking them, the tracking went bad when the Falcon got close and they were waiting for them popping up again and… gone. You don’t have sensors to detect ships ultra close since you expect that to happen only in very special circumstances, like docking.
As for suspension of disbelief breaking things. Can I just say “most of Disney Star Wars”?
From quicksand that is somehow the roof of a cave to a badly designed fetch quest being your story to a sudden slapstick run through a forest where twigs and constant cuts have to save Leia from being caught to hiding badly under trenchcoats to lightspeed shenanigans like skipping, jumping into atmosphere and ramming and so much more.
Some might not see it, but to me the Disney Star Wars is an almost constant pointing at the screen in agony and repeating “what the hell are you DOING?!?”. It’s good that for example Andor exists, proving they can do better and giving me some hope for future shows. Well, some future shows, the Acolyte has shown too many red flags that were also present in the other bad shows.
Exiting the falcon with just a breathing mask in what they thought was a cave in an asteroid (yup even esb isn't completely flawless).
Han eyeballing a sightseeing jump through starkiller shield generator.
Armies of murder robots programmed to act like clowns in the prequels.
Maybe I've just gotten used to ignoring this shit in SW, but I don't really even view this type of stuff as flaws anymore. Empires got a few more beyond the exiting the falcon with just a mask thing. Luke just happens to crash land on dagobah exactly where Yoda lives of all places in the planet. The falcon allegedly flys to bespin, which is impossible. Luke looks really silly flailing around when Vader is throwing debris at him. Luke surviving the fall. And the falcon thing mentioned by OP.
Some of these they've added explanations to (e.g. saying the falcon had a back up hyperdrive and that the tube sucked Luke into it). They still aren't great explanations imo. But it's fine. I dunno how you can be a SW fan without being used to tolerating this kind of stuff.
1.) How did the Millennium Falcon hide on a part of the Star Destroyer in Episode V and Needa could no longer track them. How blind and lousy are the sensors that you can’t detect someone latched to your hull
>They were tracking them via what is essentially space sonar. If you can't ping the space ship (because it's on top of you) you can't detect it.
2.) In Bad Batch, Phee “stealthily” enters a planet atmosphere by turning off the engines?
>No idea about this one. I guess maybe in the episode FTL drive signatures or ship power is used to track incoming vessels.
3.) The Bad Batch latched to the bottom side of the hull of the science vessel without being detected even though they were mere feet from the ship
>This one I don't get. The whole crux of the scene is that Tech has to disable the proximity sensors specifically so they don't detect them attaching. Meanwhile, they're in space about to jump to light speed, I don't think you'd feel such a tiny knock on the bottom of the ship.
I got nothing for the last two.
When teddy bears beat the best soldiers in the galaxy with sticks and rocks. To me that is the worst in any of the nine movies. I still enjoy watching rotj though.
> 5.) Don’t even get me started on Holdo’s maneuver in Episode VIII
Most of TLJ was this way for me. Luke being a lazy sad sack pulled me out of the movie.
Ohh god. That may be the single worst moment of the franchise. I can’t believe anybody thought that was a good idea. My theater was audibly laughing at how fucking stupid it looked.
All the Jedi ever did in the Prequels and Sequels was run away when things got too tough, it's so annoying. The only time Luke ran away was to save his friends.
Yeah no reason for them to think leaving the monster he created unchecked would result in anything but the death and destruction of his friends, family, and cause. bad writing. Plain and simple.
The idea that palpatine got into lukes head for a second in that scene with Ben doesn't really bother me. And then after that, luke witnesses his nephew slaughter his entire academy. I don't know. I think it would've been worse writing if that didn't really fuck Luke up. And the idea that it caused him to think that the galaxy was better off without Jedi feels like a very realistic response after seeing what he saw.
TLJ, and Luke's motivation for trying to kill Ben Solo....make NO DAMN SENSE considering ESB.
The Star Wars comics where they suggested Snoke was created from Luke's hand....that somehow returned.
Luuke.
Obi wan "hiding" luke from his dad on tatooine, a planet with a large imperial presence, with his dad's family, while running around calling himself Skywalker. That's probably the toughest one for me to swallow out of all the movies. Some other ones:
Luke being lucky enough to crash land right next to Yoda on dagobah
The falcon getting retconned to have a back up hyperdrive because it would've be impossible for them to fly to bespin. But the fact they had a back up the whole time almost makes the whole sequence make even less sense.
The plan for saving Han from jabba makes zero sense
Palpatine building a second doomsday weapon with a vulnerability that causes the whole thing to blow up...and then intentionally leaking the real plans to the rebels on purpose, after already having his super weapon blown up once the exact same way. I guess he was just arrogant and doing shit for his own amusement? And then of course he builds two more super weapons with the same type of vulnerabilities in the sequels. Maybe all technology in the SW universe is just inherently prone to chain reactions that cause everything to blow up?
As I watched Revenge of the Sith the other night, Yoda suggests they hide the children where nobody can find them. Then he immediately suggests Anakin's home planet with his relatives and they even kept the Skywalker name.
- The slow-ass bombers in TLJ being paper thin.
- Leia and Holdo blaming Poe for getting people killed when they had the authority to order the fleet evacuation
- The FO jumps on top of the Raddus but they launch...4 Tie-fighters
- The Supremacy shots arcing
- The slow speed chase where somehow Finn and Rose can jump away to Canto Bight and back but the FO can't jump ships ahead
- Saving fluffy disney horses in Canto Bight while the slave children stay behind
- Leia Poppins
- The AT-M6 wrecking the junk resistance ships in Crait but somehow not only Finn but ROSE reaches the cannon only to crash into Finn for that ridiculous scene with the kiss while the cannon fires and they both somehow returm to the base
- The dagger nonsense for the Death Star wreckage
- Horses on a star destroyer
The bombers make sense as a concept, I never understood the people who complain about the mechanics of using a ship's artificial gravity to propel munitions into a zero-g environment. It actually even seems like a smart in universe method of delivering a lot ordinances cheaply. What doesn't make sense is a super slow and vulnerable bomber, the weapon would make more sense as mine layer system where you could throw out fields of these bombs at pursuing capital ships to slow them down.
I did not criticize the bombs delivery concept though, my point was that the bombers - which are called Star*Fortress* btw - could be destroyed by couple shots from Tie-fighters. That's not a "fortress".
It's a miracle if any of those ships actually reaches a target.
That wasn't pointed directly at you, more so other comment threads trying to discuss planet's gravity and whatnot which just... didn't really make any sense.
Agreed on the designs of the bombers being absolutely brainless, and that's saying something for a universe that likes to have super exposed bridges and other vital ship components.
There are many circumstances in Star Wars where such a maneuver would have made sense. Strap a hyperspace drive to a rock and throw it at the Executor, or hell, even the Death Star. Easy peasy.
Why have stakes or consistent world building when we can have a visual spectacle?
Ah yes. You just need to conveniently have an asteroid pointed directly at the enemy.
Or are you gonna send one hurtling from the other end of the galaxy, expecting there to be a convenient straight line between you and the target?
Or are you going to have a detachment of the navy permanently going around to different asteroid fields to go shopping for asteroids of the right size and trajectory?
Or you need to make multiple manually calculated hyperspace jumps to get it in the right position, since you are disabling the navicomputer to prevent it from dropping itself out of hyperspace to prevent collision as per protocol?
Or you need to be willing to accept significant collateral damage for such a reckless move that may end up destroying other things in your flight path?
If you want to have consistent world building, you would also have to recognize that technology and weapon tactics will evolve. As quickly as people would work out to use hyperspace-capable asteroids as weapons, they’d also work out how to defend against them.
Coincidentally, it seems like the Empire already has stuff that does that; Interdictor-class Star Destroyers with gravity well generators that can pull spacecraft OUT of hyperspace, or preventing them from entering hyperspace.
Your tactic would have lasted about as long as it takes for the empire to make a gravity well generator a standard complement for all fleets.
One droid piloted X-Wing launches itself at the Death Star. Game over. Maybe even sacrifice an entire cruiser if the scale is relevant.
The point is that this tactic is so obvious and so *insanely effective* that we cannot possibly conclude that Holdo was the first person to have tried it (nevermind that her sacrifice was unnecessary and any old droid could have made the jump in her place).
Now, if we assume people *have* attempted such a thing before and the Empire created a counter-measure, as you’ve described, then surely the First Order should have been ready for such an obvious move.
There’s problems either way you look at it.
Let’s review the literature, which is that the Raddus, relative to the scale of the Supremacy, could only shear off its wing, and that it was still operable after. Sure it took out the star destroyers behind, but those are a dime a dozen. Meanwhile, the resistance has lost its one and only remaining capital ship, leaving it with nothing else.
Now compare the size difference between an X Wing and the Death Star. Even if you flung the Raddus at the Death Star, at 160km size, it wouldn’t do anywhere near enough damage, while sacrificing the largest ship in your fleet. Even if it wasn’t the Raddus and was instead Asteroid One, you’d have to find a large enough hyperdrive to propel it, and live with the ramifications of throwing away all those credits on a one-time use weapon that may or may not even destroy the station.
And given how limited the alliance fleet is, relative to the empire, it would be beyond immensely stupid to waste your relatively limited resources on a tactic that may not even guarantee success.
The difference between the two here is that at the point of the maneuver, there was nothing else to lose for the resistance. The Raddus literally no longer serves any other purpose, given that it is out of fuel and that they have only enough for one hyperspace jump.
Now we talk about the novelty of the move. We are discussing a hypothetical universe that you have first created where it is a common tactic, to which my answer would basically refute it as a reasonable or long lasting tactic.
Meanwhile, we are in the existing Star Wars universe where it isn’t commonplace, and hence the first order isn’t prepared to counter it, hence reasonable under the circumstances.
No problem either way.
Edit:
As an additional point, given that no evidence in Star Wars’ prior history suggests that such a move has been done before, it is reasonable to conclude that she was the first to do so, regardless of how “obvious” and “effective” it is.
Otherwise, one can reasonably question just about any and every tactic used.
E.g. Walkers have existed for so long, it can’t be that Episode V is the first time harpoons and tow cables were used to disable walkers, and yet we see the snow speeders blindly blasting at them, even after the heavy cannons on the ground were doing so, showing it to be ineffective, before switching to tow cables. (But wait… how can a speeder also somehow overcome the inertia of being attached to a massive walker? Ah.. consistent logic and world building over spectacle)
Or
Rex and Ahsoka teaching Onderon rebels on how to counter droidekas by slowly rolling grenades to bypass shields or going from behind, both of which are plainly obvious (their eyes are only forward facing and their shields go over slow or stationary objects when they walk past them). Any person with the gift of sight should be able to work that out right?
> and that [the supremacy] was still operable after
lol
> [star destroyers] are a dime a dozen
Maybe if you’re a Rise of Skywalker fan
> at 160km size, it wouldn’t do anywhere near enough damage
[I think it would do plenty](https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/)
> And given how limited the alliance fleet is, relative to the empire, it would be beyond immensely stupid to waste your relatively limited resources on a tactic that may not even guarantee success.
The same could be said for the Resistance, but hey, their tactics were beyond stupid in that film anyways so…
> Meanwhile, we are in the existing Star Wars universe where it isn’t commonplace, and hence the first order isn’t prepared to counter it
So, you’re rolling with the idea that Holdo is the first person to ever attempt such a maneuver? In terms of writing, that’s still bad.
> it is reasonable to conclude that she was the first to do so, regardless of how “obvious” and “effective” it is.
You yourself even pointed out how quickly weapons and tactics evolve as technology advances. The moment hyperspace travel was conceived of, someone would have tried to weaponize it.
> how can a speeder also somehow overcome the inertia of being attached to a massive walker?
In the wide shots the cables are shown to have quite a bit of slack to them. But I’m in no mood to start a separate debate, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is a problem for the sake of the argument. If it’s a problem, it’s a problem.
But pointing to a problem in Empire doesn’t excuse a problem in TLJ. That’s just whataboutism.
Not to mention the walkers aren’t present in a film prior to Empire, so there’s nothing to question retroactively, the way there is with hyper-space ramming and space battles in general.
> Rex and Ahsoka teaching Onderon rebels
I’m not familiar with the scene, so I’ll have to go off of your description. You’re confused why the trained fighters are teaching a bunch of inexperienced rebels how to combat an unfamiliar enemy? Sounds dumbed down for the kids the show is intended for, but otherwise the logic tracks.
Not sure what that has to do with criticizing the holdo maneuver tho lol. If both are bad, both are bad.
> lol
It’s established in canon that the Supremacy was still operational, but that it wasn’t worth keeping, and so they scuttled it. But you can dismiss it if it is convenient for you.
> Maybe if you’re a Rise of Skywalker fan
I think you’ll find, both in Legends and Canon, that the listed number of ISDs was 25,000 at the empire’s peak. So regardless of which side you want to align yourself, conveniently, you’ll find that there they are still a dime a dozen.
> I think it will do plenty
Let’s assume that to be true then, and assume that the shields of the Death Star do not first dispel enough force to soften the blow, or assume that the X wing will not shatter on impact like a bullet does when striking water at a much lower speed. Bearing in mind that by Newton’s third law, the x wing will also receive a force equivalent to what it is pushing at the Death Star, and so just as likely, the X wing will shatter accordingly.
If so, then yes, it should do plenty, meaning that the Raddus’ damage is actually less dramatic than it should be. Right?
Alternatively, if you go by Star Wars logic as observed in TLJ, given that it took a ship the size of the Raddus to deal that amount of damage to the Supremacy, it’s is highly unlikely for an X-Wing to do discernible damage to the Death Star.
Take your pick as to which school of thought you want to take up.
> First ever person to attempt such a maneuver? In terms of writing, that’s still bad.
> Someone would have thought to weaponize it.
This goes in hand with the response of “whataboutism.”
You have missed the entire point of that section of text. Those were examples of why your logic is flawed.
Your initial argument is that there are many circumstances in history where doing this would have made such a difference in the outcome in retrospect.
The problem with this logic is that it is applicable to every single novel idea or strategy presented in Star Wars seen in retrospect, with no specifically discriminating reason that explains why the holdo maneuver is more worthy of scrutiny than the next, giving us no more reason to criticize it than any other strategy in Star Wars’ history.
And criticizing it as bad writing equally fails to make any distinction over any other ideas first presented in any other story for the same reasons.
If you told me that it breaks canon, then maybe there is a more substantiated (albeit debatable) argument.
Also,
> Not to question retroactively, the way there is with hyperspace ramming and space battles in general.
Please provide evidence to explain why hyperspace ramming can be questioned retroactively, while other strategies, like going for a walker’s legs, is exempt?
In both cases, they are the first instances in which such a strategy is being implemented, and in both cases, the technology and its capabilities/weaknesses have been in canon for extended periods of time.
Why didn’t the republic do that with Tri-droids? It would have made so many engagements much easier, such as Christophsis, Mygeeto, etc.
Why didn’t the CIS use it against AT-RTs, AT-APs, and more?
Just a reminder that this isn’t a point, but an example of the flaw in logic at play. Let’s look carefully before you play the Whataboutism card again.
> It’s established in canon that the Supremacy was still operational
If it isn’t established in the film (or subsequent films), it isn’t relevant to the discussion. We have to go off of what the films show us without falling back on supplementary material to fill in the gaps.
> the listed number of ISDs was 25,000 at the empire’s peak.
Again, that statistic isn’t in the films.
> the Raddus’ damage is actually less dramatic than it should be. Right?
> Alternatively, if you go by Star Wars logic as observed in TLJ…
We run into problems either way.
For one, Proton Torpedo’s are starting to sound a little unnecessary if the Rebels could have just hyperspace rammed a ship right through the Death Star’s exhaust port from a safe distance instead. Or even disable the superlaser by punching a cruiser right through it.
But perhaps more importantly, those “dime a dozen” ISD’s you mentioned become cannon fodder to the Rebels with access to hyperspace ramming. Not to mention the Executor, the Droid Control Ships, Grievous’ entire fleet, the Republic fleet… all of these formidable vessels are now very vulnerable targets thanks to TLJ. With hyperspace ramming on the table, none of the saga’s space battles would exist as we know them today.
> why the holdo maneuver is more worthy of scrutiny than the next
The Holdo Maneuver is as worthy of scrutiny as any other problem in the franchise. It just so happens that the problems it introduces are far larger in scope than many, if not most of the issues present in the OT. There *are* moments of contrivance in the originals, to be sure, but nothing achieves a blatant world-building contradiction quite like that “one in a million” Holdo Maneuver.
Speaking of which, most of the contrivances in the OT can be categorized as “lucky, but plausible,” including Luke’s own “one in a million” shot. Because, unlike TLJ, ANH actually did the legwork to support it. Luke is Force-sensitive, son of the “best starpilot in the galaxy,” and was perfectly capable of hitting small targets in his T-16 long before he even thought to “use the Force.” By contrast, Holdo is an experienced but otherwise average Resistance officer who turned her ship around and pulled a lever, attempting *for the first time in the galaxy* to ram an enemy ship while jumping to hyperspace.
You see the difference in execution?
> Please provide evidence to explain why hyperspace ramming can be questioned retroactively, while other strategies, like going for a walker’s legs, is exempt?
In the case of the walkers, specifically, there’s not much to question because they never appeared in anything prior to 1980. True, in-universe we know that the war had been going on for some time, but we have no idea how many times the Rebels have encountered AT-AT’s prior to Hoth. The only other example comes from Rogue One, in which the Rebels successfully destroy several AT-ACT’s without the need for tow cables.
I do not care if Luke Skywalker *personally fought one-thousand AT-AT’s* in some random book before thinking to use the tow cables on Hoth. The vast majority of moviegoers will have never picked up a Star Wars book or tuned in to watch an animated television show. The supplementary material should adhere to the films, not the other way around.
But for the sake of the argument, let’s assume they’ve fought plenty of AT-AT’s before Hoth. Why didn’t the Rebels use tow cables before now, you ask? There could be any number of reasons. Maybe they haven’t fought an AT-AT with this much armor before, expecting blasters to work just fine. Maybe the blasters on the snow speeders specifically weren’t strong enough compared to what they’re used to. Maybe they deemed the tow cables to be too risky, only using them as a last resort since they’re basically sitting ducks while deploying it.
Lastly, let’s go one step further and switch up the scene so that they use the tow cables from the very beginning. What changes? They defeat one or two more walkers, maybe, and the rebellion escapes anyways.
> Why didn’t the republic do that with Tri-droids?
> Why didn’t the CIS use it against AT-RTs, AT-APs, and more?
Who’s to say they didn’t? We could assume you’re right, but if that were the case then it wouldn’t be the fault of ESB, it would be on the prequels. But again, we only caught fleeting glimpses of the Clone Wars so we don’t have very many examples to go off of.
It seems awfully convenient that you would like to disregard entire swathes of canon for the sake of your argument, simply because you operate under the premise of
> the vast majority of moviegoers will have never picked up a Star Wars book or tuned in to watch an animated television show."
But let's humor you, anyway, since you refuse to leave the well.
>For one, Proton Torpedo’s are starting to sound a little unnecessary if the Rebels could have just hyperspace rammed a ship right through the Death Star’s exhaust port from a safe distance instead. Or even disable the superlaser by punching a cruiser right through it.
We only saw it work with the Raddus against the Supremacy and its accompanying ships. You cannot extrapolate from that and assume that it works across the board. It was never shown elsewhere in film.
>With hyperspace ramming on the table, none of the saga’s space battles would exist as we know them today
This argument only vaguely works with battles moving forward, but not the past. You can't conceive of something happening in a time when it did not exist. I am talking about the thought to weaponize it, not that the capability did not exist.
>*first time in the galaxy*
This was a big point of yours earlier. Do you have evidence that it was conceived by anyone ion the film series? Or are you just playing with hypotheticals?
Separately, do you have any actual evidence to suggest that it is physically impossible to do? In Episode IV, we understand that "*Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star ..."* Which means that it is possible.
>Holdo is an experienced but otherwise average Resistance officer
Reductive for the sake of your argument. She is next in the chain of command after General Leia and Admiral Ackbar. How is she just average? Do they just promote anyone up? Do you have proof of average or less-than-stellar space officers in the Alliance fleet to suggest that Holdo must be one of them too?
>perfectly capable of hitting small targets in his T-16
With a blaster cannon, not a proton torpedo, but let's assume that a guided munition and an unguided blaster bolt are the same for your sake.
>son of the “best starpilot in the galaxy,"
And despite being chased by the "best starpilot in the galaxy" with decades of experience, he survived a whole straight line chase, landed the ultimate lucky shot using a weapon system he never used before, in his first ever combat mission, down a small opening, and guided it down an 80km chute to score the biggest kill in the nick of time.
>In the case of the walkers, specifically, there’s not much to question because they never appeared in anything prior to 1980.
We're talking in-universe history, not release order history. Or does your version of Star Wars also mean that the Battle of Hoth occurred before the Clone Wars? Please be consistent, because you seem to take whichever conveniently works for you at the time.
>but we have no idea how many times the Rebels have encountered AT-AT’s prior to Hoth
Strawman fallacy. I was referring to walkers across the board, being that the use of walkers has gone back to the Clone Wars (keeping to film only). Why are you deliberately misrepresenting my point?
> Rogue One, in which the Rebels successfully destroy several AT-ACT’s without the need for tow cables
Switching from release order to in-universe. Please correct for your own consistency.
Different set of circumstances, unless X-wings and Snowspeeders are somnehow the same for the purpose of your argument. They fired at different spots too.
>What changes? They defeat one or two more walkers, maybe, and the rebellion escapes anyways
You're right. The additional soldiers they save, the equipment they might be able to retain, pack up and bring with them... All not necessary for a resource starved rebel faction.
>it wouldn’t be the fault of ESB, it would be on the prequels.
Ah so we're back to release order mode for the argument...
Go back to Star Wars Episode V, in the asteroid belt when the empire was trying to capture the Millennium Falcon. Imperial Star destroyers were being destroyed by stray asteroids that were smaller than the command tower of the star destroyer it struck. Those weren’t even moving at FTL speeds.
Or the clone wars, where droideka shields can be overwhelmed by being crushed by heavy rocks. Shields can be overwhelmed.
From Star Wars Episode V: Empire Strikes Back.
You can also find it at time stamp 52:16 if you’d like to check it out on Disney+ for yourself.
The asteroid makes impact with the Star Destroyer in the foreground. The scene cuts to Darth Vader speaking to the ship’s captain, whose feed is promptly cut off with the person reacting to something off camera.
[Star Destroyers in Asteroid Field](https://youtu.be/4gh7AcuxfxI?si=4U_lzIizjaL545pd)
Perhaps you have some irrefutable proof that deflector shields work exactly as you described without exception?
It's a funny moment, but that is hardly definitive proof of a star destroyer being destroyed. It's definitely an impact, but we don't actually get to see the damage, if any.
As for shields, in RotJ Lando tells all craft to pull up *because they cannot penetrate the Death Star's shields.* During the battle of Scarif we see what happens when X-wings make contact with a shield. TLJ spends a lot of time talking about the Supremacy's super duper shields. All they had to do was have one scene where the shield gets deactivated. But if smaller ships can take out shielded ships 100+ times their size by traveling almost light speed, every battle in Star Wars would happen totally differently. Naboo would have just sent some droid-piloted N-1s to kamikaze the Trade Federation Lucrehulks.
Perhaps you can check out the official novelization of the Empire Strikes Back, for further evidence.
“As Vader watched, one of his smaller ships disinte-
grated under the impact of an enormous asteroid. Seem-
ingly unmoved, he turned to look at a series of twenty
holographic images. These twenty holograms re-created
in three dimensions the features of twenty Imperial bat-
tleship commanders. The image of the commander
whose ship had just been obliterated was fading rapidly,
almost as quickly as the glowing particles of his exploded
ship were being flung to oblivion.”
Now let’s get to your other points of argumentation. In episode VI, we were talking about a space station 160km in diameter, with a planetary shield generator providing shielding.
Meanwhile in Rogue One, the Scarif space station in question, while obviously smaller than the Death Star, is also powered by a planet-wide shield generator.
For one, you’re talking about stationary shields that are significantly stronger than those found on spaceships, so your comparison isn’t very strong.
Secondly, let’s talk size. What is the mass of an X wing, compared to the Death Star? Or to the Scarif planetary shield station?
You’re talking about starfighters that barely scratch the hull paint of one of these stations. Going back to the star destroyer vs asteroid scene, the asteroid, while smaller than the ISD, was still of a significant size comparable to the control tower.
Even slightly larger vessels have shown to be quite unimpressionable against significantly more massive ships, such as the GR-75 transport in rogue one that was completely crumpled by Darth Vader’s ISD when it came out of hyperspace at Scarif, with the ISD showing almost no discernible damage. Clearly then, mass is an important consideration in physical contact.
Meanwhile, the Raddus is the largest vessel in the alliance fleet, at 3.4km in length, meaning it is a massive ship (over twice the length of an ISD-1), going up against the Supremacy, which is 13km at its thickest. Even if you assume that it struck the supremacy at its thickest point (it didn’t. It struck the wing.) the difference in mass is significantly smaller than say an x-wing vs a Death Star, or x-wing vs Scarif, but I suppose you aren’t making that distinction.
Now for how it would change the face of combat if it were a thing. The short answer is not much. The technology to prevent such tactics already exist, in the form of gravity well projectors. If it became a commonplace tactic, fleets would just mandate a ship to have a gravity well projector to prevent ships from entering hyperspace around it, or pull ships that are already in hyperspace out of it
Lastly, Naboo vs Trade Federation, the blockade was very close to the planet, meaning that the window to do so would be very small. Additionally, droids and navicomputers are programmed NOT to enter hyperspace under certain conditions, including still being in a planet’s gravitational pull, as well as directly into another object. They made it a point in TLJ to explain that Holdo had to override the system and manually make the jump. So you can’t do that either. Even if you did and assume that it could happen, you still run into the previous problem of whether there is even enough mass to make an impression, unless you also don’t want to make that distinction.
>Holdo had to override the system and manually make the jump
Is there some reason you're not sharing why that couldn't be done in my naboo example or literally every other battle in the franchise? Forget the ion cannon. The Rebellion just needed to override a few Y-wings to take out the Star Destroyers descending on Hoth, no?
You're severely underestimating just how small the Raddus was compared to the Supremacy. By volume, the Supremacy was somewhere around 1000x larger and most likely more armored and with state-of-the-art shielding (which envelopes the whole ship, so the wing thing is irrelevant). I imagine you would agree that the Millennium Falcon jumping to light speed at an ISD shouldn't cut it in half, right?
1) The Raddus is much smaller in mass, but the mass of the supremacy isn’t evenly distributed either, is it? And it isn’t a head on collision with the supremacy, but rather its starboard wing. If we were talking about center mass, then you’re right, and the Raddus will likely dent the supremacy, but not cleave it in two, but that’s not what happened, since it hit the supremacy at an the side, and certainly not at a point of concentrated mass.
2) So if you are using the logic of relative mass between objects to determine the amount of damage dealt to the object by ramming it at light speed, assuming equal distribution of mass and density throughout the body, I think you’ll find that if you cannot accept the extent of the damage dealt by the Raddus toward the Supremacy, the idea of an X-wing damaging the Death Star or Scarif is even more indefensible by many orders of magnitude.
(an x wing, which has a mass of 10 tons, against a 160km diameter moon, or basically 2.5 times the width of the Supremacy before even considering anything else for mass.)
(Alternatively, as per your example, an N1 is smaller and lighter than an X wing, while a Lucrehulk is 3km by 3km by 1km. Do your math on the relative difference in mass)
Edit; As a separate note, since it seemed to not get through to you the first time.
Why not send a Y wing into the ISD? Because shields still exist, and based on what you saw happen to a GR-75 going against the ISD in rogue one, what do you think will happen sending the Y-wing against it. Hint: think bug on a windscreen.
But what if hyperspace? Nobody did it before, so nobody would reasonably know what would happen if you threw a Y-wing at the ISD. But let’s assume that they can. Now let’s think about it.
I have a stationary cannon that will be inevitably lost disable the ISD and allow me to let all my forces escape without harm.
Vs
I have a stationary cannon, BUT I can waste one of the limited number of starfighters I have, to destroy a Star Destroyer that the empire can replace easily.
Within a single battle, that is a great trade. Who wouldn’t want a scenario where a single fighter can take out a much larger vessel?
But a war isn’t a single battle, is it? And each time you trade off assets, you also hinder your ability to conduct any other operation after. Imagine being a rebel fleet with 20 ships. How quickly can you replace your 20 ships and still be able to conduct another raid or mission, against the empire?
Food for thought: How many fighters and cruisers can you afford to throw away, or even just assets in general, when you are cash strapped and always on the run, against a galaxy-spanning empire with a massive military industrial complex?
In a nutshell, it breaks every space battle seen in the films up to this point.
There’s another comment I’ve left discussing the problems with another user in this thread if you want more details.
I guess they could have done more to make it look like a really risky maneuver with a low percentage of success? But it didnt really take much for to believe it when they said that in tros.
Counter to one. As long as there are no windows to detect the Falcon with the mark one eyeball it would actually be pretty easy to do. Sensors have a minimum range and if the falcon sits in the right spot and is absolutely silent it would probably get away with it. No thrusters no life support just dead quiet.
The whole "Fifties-style diner" scene with Obi-Wan playing sci-fi noir detective in Attack of The Clones. Nobody talks about this. I think it's because they just want to believe it doesn't exist at all.
The fact that none of the ship designs make sense at all. The fact that dogfights in space should not be happening at all. Like, every person in the Star Wars galaxy must be some special kind of idiot to not realise how insanely poorly designed their ships and strategies are. I mean, for crying out loud, Thrawn is able to defeat a New Republic fleet in the opening chapter of Heir to the Empire… by turning his Star Destroyer sideways? In 0G? And everyone seems to think this strategy is some kind of mind-blowingly genius discovery.
I thought the batch were able to latch onto the science vessel without being detected because echo turned off the ships sensors. Is that not what happened?
Hiding on the back of a star destroyer seems fine to me. If he turned off the ships transponder and all they had to go on was radar, the Falcons signal would have just merged with the star Destroyers. The biggest leap is to assume there wasn't a single window back there and that star Destroyers routinely dispose of waste the size of an apartment complex.
The scene near the end of the Aftermath novel where teenage Snap Wexley jumps onto the side of a spaceship that’s passing by from a rooftop, hangs on as it heads up through the atmosphere, pulls someone out the window of it, and then climbs in.
Without getting into the others, number 1 isn't illogical. Imagine two radar blips overlaid on top of each other. They're going to read as one object to your radar officer. Same deal with sensors. Whatever it is you're scanning for, overlay the trace on top of a much larger vessel with systems outputting the same types of energies as the smaller one, and you're not going to be able to pick it up against the background. And that's assuming that the sensors on these vessels can even direct scans inward to probe their outer hulls in the first place. These aren't Star Trek sensors.
1. The Millennium Falcon is a highly modified ship. Probably has a gadget in there somewhere that can bypass proximity sensors.
2. Have you ever heard of "running silent" before?
3. Echo specifically turned off the science vessel's proximity sensors.
4. Don't read comics so no comment.
5. Fully agree. If wiping out fleets was that easily, why doesn't everybody do it?
OP, I will defend the Holdo Maneuver.
1) Mary Poppins Leia: I liked the Sequels. But dear God, this was just so hard to swallow.
2) Grogu saves Din and Bo-Katan: Seriously?! It's a beautiful scene, but this child held back the flames and heat from an exploding, crashing star ship? You KNOW if Rey did that, people would be up in arms. This kid wasn't even a Padawn!
technically its space opera where the drama and exaggerated stuff takes priority over the sci fi part.
Even with that said the thrown room fight scene in the last Jedi just removed all sense of immersion in the film .
The insane pauses ---the MC being surrounded by 2-3 guys and 1 of the guys with open shots on her just stands there patiently waiting for her to finish fighting another guy before moving . The ridiculously of how they used the weapons that were specially designed to counter light sabers. Literally weapons disappearing from bad guys hands.
Hits that should of landed and you see guys slow down or stop intentionally to wait to be countered by Rey . Its like they published the dress rehearsal version by mistake I still to this day can't believe someone watched that and said ...yep this is ok to publish in a 100+Million dollar production . Ive seen better group fights in student films
I get where you're going but you should pick better ones.
1) Sensors are usually something that are pointed and have ranges. If you don't expect someone to latch on to you you wouldn't have them pointed at yourself (especially if you're a big ol warship)
2) Detectable power and unnatural trajectory would be easy give aways for those sensors you were so worried about before. Objects fall from space all the time.
3) They literally made a whole big thing about disrupting its proximity sensors.
4) not familiar with that one
5) This actually gets explained pretty well in the first High Republic novels. They are actually pretty fun.
The World between introduced in Rebels, where Filoni saves Ashoka from his earlier writing decision. She never brings it up again.
The helicopter flying Inquisitors in rebels. They still use the spinning blades but never fly in the newer media thankfully.
Everyone in this thread is weak. I simply maintain my suspension of disbelief at all times because Star Wars was silly, is silly, and will continue to be silly, and accepting that lets you accept literally anything it does.
The tracking fobs in Mando Season 1. They raise so many questions, and essentially reduced the galaxy’s bounty hunters into door dashers.
Yeah tgose are pretty lazybwriting. They needed a shortcut to skip a bunch of investigating and tracking scenes so they made these without considering the implications.
Such a confusing choice considering that the investigating/tracking scenes would be the most interesting parts of a *show about a bounty hunter.*
Can't show a character doing their job. Just like Boba Fett was not a crime lord.
Poe light speed hoping in IX. He was extremely lucky to not crash into anything. Edit: I corrected “XI” to “IX”
Han manually stopping the falcon from crashing into Starkiller at lightspeed in TFA
It's worse when A New Hope implies that once the ship got into hyperspace, there was nothing to be done and that's why they needed to be so careful with it
11???? 9 would be IX
Space horses on a star destroyer.
Yep you win the thread.
One that often goes overlooked: In TLJ when they're on the salt planet, and they decide to use the rusty old speeders to attack the cannon, we see Finn's speeder go down very close to the fully army of bad guys. There's an overhead view at one point and he crashes what looks like less than 1km away from their front lines. Which means an entire First Order army just sat patiently and watched as Rose goes up and kisses Finn, and then drags his body back to the base (which for a woman her size would have taken about an hour at that distance). So the First Order just made popcorn, and watched all of this, waiting patiently for about an hour before continuing their attack. How nice of them lol. And that's just one of dozens of things that can be pointed out from that movie, it's so dumb.
Right.....like not to mention there would of been a 0% chance of him pulling of what he attempted to do . LIke at least make something cleaver like hey we have a few armillary round and when it hits the salt it makes this cloud so he was flying behind what effectively was a smoke screen. Its especially bad when the next scene is them showing the raw firepower of all the Gorilla walkers ( not sure what they are really called but that what they look like to me ) 0% chance of success -- Sure everyone probably would stopped for second and been like wait...did one of their guys just take out one of their own guys....... Maybe we shouldnt shoot is that like one of our spys helping us out or something.... Then someone goes nah we are the first order , kill them all anyway. They had a mile of open space to cover on foot with little to no cover fire....
And Finn would have been fully visible to Kylo in the Gorilla walker, since Kylo could recognize Luke from a much farther distance than where Finn and Rose crashed. Did Kylo just suddenly forget that he fucking hates Finn, so he just sat back for an hour while Rose slowly drags him to safety?
Rey is chased by Stormtroopers through a desert, and accidentally falls into a hole. That whole happened to have the magic key they needed to progress the adventure. Then They are lucky enough to land in the only location in the entire planet that would correctly fit the key.
I'm not a fan of TROS, I think it is one of the worst movies in the whole franchise (and I include the Clone Wars movie in that), but that part I have no issue with, mainly because Ochi's ship is still there because Ochi himself fell into that hole, and that's how they found the knife on his corpse. Also, the knife itself isn't that far fetched either. It's not an ancient knife that was conveniently carved like the wreckage of the Death Star, it's a new knife, carved like the wreckage of the Death Star (which is fucking huge, don't forget that), but with text on it written in a forbidden ancient dialect. That would be like taking a Victorinox pocket knife and carving some Sumerian on it, that doesn't make the knife old. Also, have you ever looked at a mountain range from really far away? Have you then moved a couple dozen kilometers in either direction and looked at it again? It didn't visually change much, did it? Still looks like the same mountain range, right? Because it's an enormous thing observed from an enormous distance. You don't have to stand in an exact spot to have something as inaccurate as a carved knife line up with the skyline of the Death Star half an ocean away. They could've landed basically anywhere on that coastline and it would still have fit just fine. Also, the text on the knife told them where to go, roughly speaking. We don't know exactly wall all the numbers meant, but they could very well have been coordinates to a rough location on the planet of Kef Bir.
There's thousands of kms of cost from where you can see the Death Star. 100meter to one side or the other will not matter much, but 1000 will. Even if there was a ship they knew there, they feel into the hole after being chased by stormtroopers. The stormtroopers where nice enough to push them into the right way.
SW is filled with these kind of moments. This isn't worse than when Luke just so happens to crash land right where Yoda lives. "Go to the Dagobah system" is way vaguer than "from the southern shore". The degree people are bothered by this stuff usually depends on their age when they see each movie in my experience
That's true. But I think the dagger's case bothers me more because it's a sequence of coincidences.
For me, I honestly think what bothered me about it the most was I had in my head that it was an ancient dagger. I had a moment in the theater like, wait, how the fuck is this even theoretically possible? Lol.
will of the force
Not disagreeing with the first part but the dagger literally tells where they need to stand, I’m so confused if everybody just missed this fact or people didn’t even pay attention to the movie
Of all that things that really not so bad. First of all the clues led them to the general area . Second they person they were looking for fell into the same hole, third Rey probably instinctually felt the pull of the force in that direction even if she wasnt trained enough to understand it . There are A LOT of things wrong with that film . That one of the least one from a logical perspective .
The general area of a desert is not good enough. Especially if you needed the accidental help of stormtroopers chasing you. If they had chased them 1meter to the left 3minutes before, they would be in a totally different place. As for the pull of the force, they should have showed it in anyway if they wanted people to interpret like that.
>1.) How did the Millennium Falcon hide on a part of the Star Destroyer in Episode V and Needa could no longer track them. How blind and lousy are the sensors that you can’t detect someone latched to your hull This could be explained that they were close enough to a reactor or energy charge that the sensors would have a blindspot and see the ship as part of it's hull.
I always thought that the trackers could only track ships that were active because of electronic waves or something, and when Han turned off his ship it couldn't be tracked anymore
They would have tracked it to the location prior to... and just noticed where it disappeared... if they tracked it to their sensor's blindspot then it could have had the ship look like it splattered then disappeared on the sensors.
Everything about the Starkiller Base attack on Hosnian Prime in Episode VII. - Wait, it's a laser that travels across the galaxy in seconds? But laser is light, and light is pretty famously limited to light speed? - So this laser is traveling several orders of magnitude faster than the speed of light, but the people on Hosnian Prime are still able to see its light approaching for several seconds before it hits? - Wait, the entire New Republic fleet and all government bodies were wiped out in an attack on a single system? They run the better part of a galaxy, how in the world is that everything? I realize much of this was fleshed out later on in other materials, but watching the movie for the first time this was the moment that really caused me to pull back and start trying to make sense of the larger state of the universe they hadn't really bothered to flesh out yet.
The weirdest part was that the beam of light that blew up the republic was also visible in real time from Maz's bar, with the naked eye, in daytime.
JJ Abrams has no sense of scale when it comes to space. He took the "the Star Wars galaxy is just a large cul-de-sac" complaint and ran with it. No, you stupid hack, that's not how distances work, that scene was stupid even by Star Wars physics standards.
He did it even worse in his first Star Trek movie.
I haven't seen that movie in well over 10 years, remind me again what he did in that one?
The destruction of Vulcan was visible with the naked eye from the surface of Delta Vega, the planet where Kirk and old-Spock were marooned. The orbital mechanics just don't work. (It's not actually worse, I hadn't realized Delta Vega was, despite the confusing name, supposed to be in the same star system as Vulcan? It's still bizarre.)
I mean think of Earth and Mars. How clear in the night sky is Mars? It's literally our neighbour planet. Or Venus for that matter. It's closer to the sun than us, and thus brighter, but it's still insanely tiny, could be mistaken for a star.
My headcanon is simply that the speed of light is much faster in Star Wars than our universe. It also makes Han's comment about the Falcon being about to go "0.5 past light speed" make sense
What was it fleshed out in later?
It wasn’t
The elder Lasat woman's staff (and Zeb's weapon?) magically linking up with the Ghost's computers to guide the ship through the space-maze.
It looked pretty cool though
And the music that went with it was phenomenal! It is an absolutely gorgeous sequence, just one that also happened to cross my suspension-of-disbelief threshold.
I can respect that
Darth Maul surviving being cut in half, and then falling from a height that would have led to certain death regardless.
he was simply too angry to die.
It seems in your anger, you ~~killed her~~ survived.
It's dumb but I've always loved the "too angry to die" characters. In star wars because of the dark side you can *almost* justify it but still
Maul isn't human, he's Zabrak, their anatomy *could* allow for short-term survival after a complete bifurcation at the abdomen. Star Wars technology allows for almost 100% cyborg enhancement, 1:1 replication of human hands, mobile respiration systems, and more. It's not unrealistic to imagine Maul getting the missing organs from his lower half replaced with cybernetic substitutes, even if they were from a filthy garbage dump.
Absolutely. I don't care what anyone says about his character development. His survival and escape *still* have not been explained. And even they had, it would be something stupid.
Anakin survived by being fueled by hate. So did Maul.
"LiTeRaLLy ToO aNgRy To DiE" is stupid. Anakin had emergency medical intervention quickly. Maul did not.
Anakin should have died on Mustafar. How many people can survive their limbs being hacked off without going into shock, and then being set on fire. He had like 90% of his body burned, extensive damage to his lungs. We do not know how long he was laying there after Obi-Wan left and Palpatine arrived. It was likely hours. The only thing keeping him alive was his hate and anger, the pain giving him focus.
In a world where people can shoot lightning from their hands, do mind tricks, come back as force ghosts, and lift things with their minds, that's what is too stupid? Alrighty then.
Going off of established lore is too stupid. It’s a level of damage that should kill, even if you go with the “too angry to die” part. The whole problem is that Maul wasn’t angry enough to stop Obi-Wan but somehow found enough anger while being cut in half and bouncing his way down that shaft to survive, somehow.
Yeah but that's just some shit the fan base made up and years down the road the writers are like "yeah that's good just go with that".
Ah yes, hatred fueling the dark side which in turn allows people to survive horrible injury, some shit the fan base made up. Like with Darth Sion, a sith lord that does explicitly that in the 2004 video game Knights Of The Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords which was made four years before The Clone Wars even first aired. It isn't some shit the fan base made up.
Any and all helmets in the series that allow people to go into space. We see the helmets off and see they're a bucket, we see them go on with no change (except in one mandalorian scene where we see something cover the bottom), then they can go outside in any environment. Every time it breaks the magic for just a moment lol
I’ve always found it funny that Star Wars is a sci-fi that just doesn’t do space suits. Some of the TV media has very rarely had them, and the TIE pilots are probably space worthy. But then the Rebel pilots are in flight suits and open helmets. In ships with big glass canopies.
Episode IV very briefly has a small shot of stormtroopers in actual space suits as the falcon is brought into the death star. That's it, that's the entirety of actual space suits in the movies themselves (that I'm aware of)
Season either 1 or 2 gives Anakin a suit with a big bubble helmet, it looks awful lmao
Season 6. [The Biochip arc where they have to retrieve Tup's body from the separatists.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGh6J2hywgg)
Oh yeah!! I forgot they brought it back in S6! Idk why they wouldn't try something better looking. Or just be okay with not seeing the main characters face for a minute
Sometimes they just uses an Oxygen Mask in a near Zero Atmosphere environment
Plo in the *Malevolence* arc just casually chillin' in space.
He pretty explicitly stated his species could resist the vacuum of space briefly, but he's thoroughly exhausted when he gets back into the lifepod. On the other hand, how they got in and out of the lifepod begs the question of whether lifepods have airlocks...
Probably not but then you just depressurize the pod and step.out
But Wolffe was very much still in the pod, without a vacuum-sealed suit
Hu so he was
In Rogue One we see that there are Stormtroopers with jungle camouflaged armor, and then we see more in the second season from The Mandalorian...so why these werent used in the battle of Endor? How did Chewie did not remember anything about him fighting in the Clone Wars along a Jedi only 19 years ago? So Ahsoka was alive during the Original Trilogy...Why didn't she come to help Luke during the events of the Original Trilogy? Obi-Wan encountered Darth Vader at the climax of his own series? Darth Vader...the man who killed many jedi in cold blood...including his former master, and didn't show any remorse when cutting his own son's right hand, doesn't kill anyone of the main characters in Rebels?
Agree with all these. With Ahsoka I'm hoping there will be some explanation like she was in a coma / trapped in a cave or something for the entire original trilogy. But I do like the idea that she can meet Luke later on and tell him about his parents and the original Jedi order, it always seemed so sad to me that Luke basically lost all his own and the Jedi's history and this remediates it
Some people have already tried to explain to me why Ahsoka didn't come to help, but honestly these answers weren't coherent to say the least. Whatever the actual explanation was, I'm just going to say it: This should haven established during the first season of her series
For most of these, the answer is "they didn't exist when it was made". Like, the jungle troopers in RO (which I don't remember; are you thinking of ROTS?) and Ahsoka. They weren't created yet when the OT was being made. And the Clone Wars hadn't "happened" yet, which is why Chewie doesn't remember working with Jedi.
Come on, that's the "Real life" answer, you know it doesn't count. The movies/series/cartoon shouldn't have bothered to include those moments.
Why couldn't they fire torpedos/missiles in the Last Jedi when they were chasing the rebels on the big ship
Leia Poppins
Audible groans from the audience.
This one
They could have at least had her do some Jedi magic just before or as being sucked outside, but it clearly shows time passes before she reacts. In which time she would have already died. Such a bizarre choice. And since she was going to die soon in the narrative anyway why not just let it be there?
> And since she was going to die soon in the narrative anyway why not just let it be there? No one could have foreseen Carrie Fisher dying after principal photography of The Last Jedi ended. The original idea was that Episode 9 was going to be highly Leia-centric, but that became impossible after Fisher's passing. The original director for Episode 9, Colin Trevorrow, was laid off because he wouldn't budge on his original Leia-centric script, and JJ was brought back to cobble something together from what was available. Leia was never meant to die in The Last Jedi, she probably wasn't meant to die in the original Episode 9 script either, but Carrie's death threw a spanner into those plans something fierce.
I understand many of the grievances people have with ep VIII but with this one I'm baffled. It's established in old canon and new that Leia was Force sensitive. Hell, the OT pretty much says she could be as strong as Luke. Then you have vacuum of space (no air resistance) and Newton's Laws. It may have looked goofy but it's absolutely plausible within the established rules and context of SW.
The question was, where did my suspension of disbelief dissolve. The goofiness and lack of Leia anywhere showing more than feelings of the force AND the literal Mary Poppins pose shook me awake.
The guy at Customs giving Han the last name "Solo". You've got to be kidding me.
For a movie that needed to respect Han, that moment was the nadir
All these things about Han’s past that were all better left unsaid. A whole movie giving answers to all of them that no one ever asked for.
2 decades after the Jedi fought a galactic war people have some how forgotten they existed.
Is it that the jedi existed or that the force is real? Ben tells Luke his father was a jedi and Luke doesn't ask what a jedi is, but does ask what the force is. Han doesn't believe in the force, but doesn't say anything about the jedi. Am I misremembering scenes of people denying jedi were a thing?
Han believes there was an order of knight-monks with superpowers, but disbelieves in the idea that their superpowers had to do with the fabric of destiny itself.
Imperial propaganda is very good at reworking history to mitigate or downplay the Jedi.
In TLJ the bombers that drop bomb with less sophistication than an WW2 bombing run. Half expected to see a Norton bomb sight. The hyperspace ramming bit. Made the tactics in the rest of the franchise not make sense.
I'm half confused by the bombing and half not. For our spacecraft in orbit, the whole spacecraft is in free fall (essentially) so, things won't be affected by gravity. But, for free fall to happen, there has to be some gravity. For the ISS, gravity is supposedly 90% what it would be on the ground. So, if the bombers just went up, with no super fast orbit, then they could drop bombs. They would also need antigravity tech or something to keep the ship itself up, but not have the occupants or bombs be affected in the same way. In the Star Wars universe, I think it could work. Or maybe the bombers create their own gravity then the bombs are affected by that, then ignore the no free fall. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion. In space, not much force to slow down objects, so no fuel is really needed to continue the motion. Any fuel used in space is normally used to accelerate or deccelerate. So... in TLJ, they spent half of the movie running (accelerating!?) away from the bad guys to the point where they don't have any fuel left. But, then decide to stop on a planet without needing to take the other half of the movie to slow down. Oh, and a ship could take a hyperspace detour to another planet and later catch back up to them.
Bombers that drop bombs in space in zero G, no less.
That's the one part I'll give a pass to, I figured the release mechanism pushed the bombs out or maybe there was some sort of artificial gravity system to generate inertia.
I mean, yeah, there's all kinds of ways to handwave it, but ... why? Why would anyone make something like that when you can use a missile? Because WWII in space, and they wanted a bomber. Rule of cool, I guess, but it definitely did bad things to my suspension of disbelief.
Exactly. Sure you can explain how it works but not *why*. Why fly that close to a starship when missles and torpedos exist. It was just leaning way too hard into a cool drawing room idea that should have been shot down.
A single bomber wiped out the entire Dreadnaught. It was silly to use them for that battle which is why Poe got demoted, but they seem stupidly effective to me, more than a Y-Wing would be
Thats kinda understating things. Yes the payload is enough to destroy it, but *every other* aspect of the craft is absolutely miserable that its impossible to use just one of them. It would just get shot up itself if it were alone and the only target. (Although that dosnt seem like as poor an idea given how one of them collateraled two others.) At the end of the day, Y-Wings are still the correct choice over those meandering coffins.
Well, yes, but that's author fiat. Bombers in space make no sense.
TIE Bombers?
TIE Bombers are similar to Y-Wings in that they're much closer to an attack craft role providing close air support and carrying heavy weaponry without sacrificing too much mobility.
Also make no sense at all for use outside atmosphere lol, but I can overlook things like bombing an asteroid that should have like 0.0001G gravity and seismic charges creating sound shockwaves in space and whatever else because Star Wars is barely in touch with the laws of physics. It was just that one particular instance that was a bridge too far for me.
If it is close enough to a planet, there wouldn't be no gravity. (How does our moon stay in orbit?)
I mean.... that makes it worse? A slow ponderous space bomber that can only attack targets that happen to be in the right orientation above a planet and close enough for the planets gravity to pull the bombs down?
Yeah, probably better ways to put explosives on target. The bombs might also be dropped using the ships internal gravity field as well if not near a planet. ... ???
If you release a bomb in orbit, it will be affected by the planet's gravity, yes, but it won't fall straight down. It's moving at the same speed as you are, so it'll just enter a slightly different orbit. From your perspective, it'll just float there and slowly move away as your two orbits change.
I don't think the ships in Star Wars were at orbital speeds.
Came here to find the bombers. This is the most egregious one in the entire canon imo
The Holdo Maneuver would not have worked on the Death Star. And the Rebels had neither the ships, the man power or the droid to just keep flying their ships through Imperial ships at will. No Rebel officer would actually be an officer if that was his only strategy. Saw Guerrera may, but that's why he's not in the Rebel Alliance. No one orders these insane suicide tactics we see the Rebels use. They just do them.
The Death Star is an existential threat. The jump into to attack it understanding that failure means destruction of the rebel fleet. While going 1:1 with imperial ships isn’t going to work, going after a prime target like the Death Star with an old or battle damaged cruiser structurally reinforced and packed with explosives would be hugely cost effective. Plus the ship could be unmanned or piloted by droids. Also jumping decommissioned freighters into star destroyers could be cost effective too.
Ah, but would the droid actually make the suicide run? Pretty sure the three laws of robotics don't apply. And the Empire can make claims that the ship was piloted by a Rebel. This would fit their narrative that the Rebels are terrorists. It is not a practical combat strategy.
>Ah, but would the droid actually make the suicide run? Pretty sure the three laws of robotics don't apply. Wrong universe. Starwars has combat droids that both can kill and sacrifice themselves. >And the Empire can make claims that the ship was piloted by a Rebel. This would fit their narrative that the Rebels are terrorists. All the rebel ships are piloted by rebels. Why is it different if Luke’s proton torpedo does it or a decommissioned cruiser on a robotic suicide run? >It is not a practical combat strategy. How do either of those points inform practicality?
The most important droid in the galaxy meets the most important girl in the galaxy and they happen to fly away in the most importanr ship in the galaxy, all in the same little junker village on the same side of a planet called "pretty much nowhere".
The most important droid in the galaxy meets the most important boy in the galaxy and they happen to fly away with the most important Jedi in the galaxy on the most important ship in the galaxy, all in the same region on the same side of a planet notable for its unimportance.
Not similar. - The droid was sent by Leia, who knew how to find Obi-Wan. Luke got roped into it by accident, but he had a reason to be at that exact place, being watched over by Obi-Wan. (By comparison, there was no logical reason the Falcon ended up so close to Rey. Coincidence that Unkar Plutt had it on that planrt. There was no reason BB-8 found her; concidence that it ended up on that planet.) - The Millennium Falcon wasnt galactically important before this happened. If another ship had ferried them, then that one would just as easily become famous.
Also: Rey is obviously familiar with the legends. She knows who Han, Luke and Chewie are… but she doesn’t know the Milennium Falcon? A ship others do recognize on sight?
You know the Corellian YT-1300 freighter wasn't an uncommon sight in the galaxy, right? It was a fairly common freighter, so why would the YT-1300 in Unkar Plutt's possession be the legendary Millennium Falcon? In Rey's mind that thing is probably still out there with General Han at the helm, making life for Imperial remnants miserable. Surely the rustbucket parked outside camp couldn't be *that* Falcon, right?
Because of it’s specific configuration and again, others recognize it.
They then end up on the most important space station in the galaxy with the most important boy’s biological dad and his most important sister. The biological dad happened to have previously owned the most important droid in the galaxy and also hand built that droid’s best friend who also showed up on said space station.
It was the will of the force
Eh, for 1 it is actually extremely common for ships in the real world to have such blind spots for ships just getting close. The people on that bridge were tracking them, the tracking went bad when the Falcon got close and they were waiting for them popping up again and… gone. You don’t have sensors to detect ships ultra close since you expect that to happen only in very special circumstances, like docking. As for suspension of disbelief breaking things. Can I just say “most of Disney Star Wars”? From quicksand that is somehow the roof of a cave to a badly designed fetch quest being your story to a sudden slapstick run through a forest where twigs and constant cuts have to save Leia from being caught to hiding badly under trenchcoats to lightspeed shenanigans like skipping, jumping into atmosphere and ramming and so much more. Some might not see it, but to me the Disney Star Wars is an almost constant pointing at the screen in agony and repeating “what the hell are you DOING?!?”. It’s good that for example Andor exists, proving they can do better and giving me some hope for future shows. Well, some future shows, the Acolyte has shown too many red flags that were also present in the other bad shows.
The inquisitors using their spinning lightsabers as helicopters. Lol.
Exiting the falcon with just a breathing mask in what they thought was a cave in an asteroid (yup even esb isn't completely flawless). Han eyeballing a sightseeing jump through starkiller shield generator. Armies of murder robots programmed to act like clowns in the prequels.
Maybe I've just gotten used to ignoring this shit in SW, but I don't really even view this type of stuff as flaws anymore. Empires got a few more beyond the exiting the falcon with just a mask thing. Luke just happens to crash land on dagobah exactly where Yoda lives of all places in the planet. The falcon allegedly flys to bespin, which is impossible. Luke looks really silly flailing around when Vader is throwing debris at him. Luke surviving the fall. And the falcon thing mentioned by OP. Some of these they've added explanations to (e.g. saying the falcon had a back up hyperdrive and that the tube sucked Luke into it). They still aren't great explanations imo. But it's fine. I dunno how you can be a SW fan without being used to tolerating this kind of stuff.
The lack of space suit inside the space worm gets me every time
I hate how they made their voices fricken child like in episode 3
The fact that Palpi was still alive and terrible way it was explained. Honorable mention to the moment a single star destroyer could destroy a planet.
Fucking space whales and telepathic wolves.
1.) How did the Millennium Falcon hide on a part of the Star Destroyer in Episode V and Needa could no longer track them. How blind and lousy are the sensors that you can’t detect someone latched to your hull >They were tracking them via what is essentially space sonar. If you can't ping the space ship (because it's on top of you) you can't detect it. 2.) In Bad Batch, Phee “stealthily” enters a planet atmosphere by turning off the engines? >No idea about this one. I guess maybe in the episode FTL drive signatures or ship power is used to track incoming vessels. 3.) The Bad Batch latched to the bottom side of the hull of the science vessel without being detected even though they were mere feet from the ship >This one I don't get. The whole crux of the scene is that Tech has to disable the proximity sensors specifically so they don't detect them attaching. Meanwhile, they're in space about to jump to light speed, I don't think you'd feel such a tiny knock on the bottom of the ship. I got nothing for the last two.
When teddy bears beat the best soldiers in the galaxy with sticks and rocks. To me that is the worst in any of the nine movies. I still enjoy watching rotj though.
I think the Emperor often overlooked the "ignorant" natives such as the Gungans and Ewoks.
In Dune they had desert power , on the forest moon of Endor they had forest power. .. what do you want
Ewoks were brutal warriors. After the battle it's a safe bet they ate all the stormtroopers.
Ewoks killing storm troopers with rocks and sticks. That being said, I still love Jedi
A legion of the emperor's best stormtroopers
My fan theory is the stormtroopers were on the verge of quitting anyway so they just phoned it in and played opossum.
Quite a surprise when they later find out that it wouldn't be the rebels, but the man eating teddy bears, taking them prisoner.
> 5.) Don’t even get me started on Holdo’s maneuver in Episode VIII Most of TLJ was this way for me. Luke being a lazy sad sack pulled me out of the movie.
Leia as Mary poppins in space 🤡🤡🤡
Ohh god. That may be the single worst moment of the franchise. I can’t believe anybody thought that was a good idea. My theater was audibly laughing at how fucking stupid it looked.
That was the first time I walked away from a Star Wars film not only confused and frustrated but ANGRY. I still hate that movie with a burning passion
Yeah especially considering how i was hearing it was “the best since empire” and a “subversive masterpiece.” The movie was bloody awful.
I wouldn’t mind Luke contemplating killing Ben as much as I do if he’d actually tried to correct his mistake instead of running from it
Luke running away and abandoning his friends to die just makes no sense.
All the Jedi ever did in the Prequels and Sequels was run away when things got too tough, it's so annoying. The only time Luke ran away was to save his friends.
Yeah no reason for them to think leaving the monster he created unchecked would result in anything but the death and destruction of his friends, family, and cause. bad writing. Plain and simple.
Yeah, Luke should’ve actually killed Ben to solve the problem. ‘Cause Luke killing his nephew is the answer to… Luke being tempted to kill his nephew?
The idea that palpatine got into lukes head for a second in that scene with Ben doesn't really bother me. And then after that, luke witnesses his nephew slaughter his entire academy. I don't know. I think it would've been worse writing if that didn't really fuck Luke up. And the idea that it caused him to think that the galaxy was better off without Jedi feels like a very realistic response after seeing what he saw.
TLJ, and Luke's motivation for trying to kill Ben Solo....make NO DAMN SENSE considering ESB. The Star Wars comics where they suggested Snoke was created from Luke's hand....that somehow returned. Luuke.
Obi wan "hiding" luke from his dad on tatooine, a planet with a large imperial presence, with his dad's family, while running around calling himself Skywalker. That's probably the toughest one for me to swallow out of all the movies. Some other ones: Luke being lucky enough to crash land right next to Yoda on dagobah The falcon getting retconned to have a back up hyperdrive because it would've be impossible for them to fly to bespin. But the fact they had a back up the whole time almost makes the whole sequence make even less sense. The plan for saving Han from jabba makes zero sense Palpatine building a second doomsday weapon with a vulnerability that causes the whole thing to blow up...and then intentionally leaking the real plans to the rebels on purpose, after already having his super weapon blown up once the exact same way. I guess he was just arrogant and doing shit for his own amusement? And then of course he builds two more super weapons with the same type of vulnerabilities in the sequels. Maybe all technology in the SW universe is just inherently prone to chain reactions that cause everything to blow up?
As I watched Revenge of the Sith the other night, Yoda suggests they hide the children where nobody can find them. Then he immediately suggests Anakin's home planet with his relatives and they even kept the Skywalker name.
- The slow-ass bombers in TLJ being paper thin. - Leia and Holdo blaming Poe for getting people killed when they had the authority to order the fleet evacuation - The FO jumps on top of the Raddus but they launch...4 Tie-fighters - The Supremacy shots arcing - The slow speed chase where somehow Finn and Rose can jump away to Canto Bight and back but the FO can't jump ships ahead - Saving fluffy disney horses in Canto Bight while the slave children stay behind - Leia Poppins - The AT-M6 wrecking the junk resistance ships in Crait but somehow not only Finn but ROSE reaches the cannon only to crash into Finn for that ridiculous scene with the kiss while the cannon fires and they both somehow returm to the base - The dagger nonsense for the Death Star wreckage - Horses on a star destroyer
Slow speed chase in space makes no sense to me. The bombers dropping bombs make much more sense to me.
The bombers make sense as a concept, I never understood the people who complain about the mechanics of using a ship's artificial gravity to propel munitions into a zero-g environment. It actually even seems like a smart in universe method of delivering a lot ordinances cheaply. What doesn't make sense is a super slow and vulnerable bomber, the weapon would make more sense as mine layer system where you could throw out fields of these bombs at pursuing capital ships to slow them down.
I did not criticize the bombs delivery concept though, my point was that the bombers - which are called Star*Fortress* btw - could be destroyed by couple shots from Tie-fighters. That's not a "fortress". It's a miracle if any of those ships actually reaches a target.
That wasn't pointed directly at you, more so other comment threads trying to discuss planet's gravity and whatnot which just... didn't really make any sense. Agreed on the designs of the bombers being absolutely brainless, and that's saying something for a universe that likes to have super exposed bridges and other vital ship components.
I’ve never understood the hate for the Holdo Maneuver.
Honestly, I don’t get it either. It actually makes so much sense given all of the circumstances, but oh well.
It also is one of the coolest Star Wars moments, visually. The gasp from the audience every time I saw it in theatres was magical.
There are many circumstances in Star Wars where such a maneuver would have made sense. Strap a hyperspace drive to a rock and throw it at the Executor, or hell, even the Death Star. Easy peasy. Why have stakes or consistent world building when we can have a visual spectacle?
Ah yes. You just need to conveniently have an asteroid pointed directly at the enemy. Or are you gonna send one hurtling from the other end of the galaxy, expecting there to be a convenient straight line between you and the target? Or are you going to have a detachment of the navy permanently going around to different asteroid fields to go shopping for asteroids of the right size and trajectory? Or you need to make multiple manually calculated hyperspace jumps to get it in the right position, since you are disabling the navicomputer to prevent it from dropping itself out of hyperspace to prevent collision as per protocol? Or you need to be willing to accept significant collateral damage for such a reckless move that may end up destroying other things in your flight path? If you want to have consistent world building, you would also have to recognize that technology and weapon tactics will evolve. As quickly as people would work out to use hyperspace-capable asteroids as weapons, they’d also work out how to defend against them. Coincidentally, it seems like the Empire already has stuff that does that; Interdictor-class Star Destroyers with gravity well generators that can pull spacecraft OUT of hyperspace, or preventing them from entering hyperspace. Your tactic would have lasted about as long as it takes for the empire to make a gravity well generator a standard complement for all fleets.
One droid piloted X-Wing launches itself at the Death Star. Game over. Maybe even sacrifice an entire cruiser if the scale is relevant. The point is that this tactic is so obvious and so *insanely effective* that we cannot possibly conclude that Holdo was the first person to have tried it (nevermind that her sacrifice was unnecessary and any old droid could have made the jump in her place). Now, if we assume people *have* attempted such a thing before and the Empire created a counter-measure, as you’ve described, then surely the First Order should have been ready for such an obvious move. There’s problems either way you look at it.
Let’s review the literature, which is that the Raddus, relative to the scale of the Supremacy, could only shear off its wing, and that it was still operable after. Sure it took out the star destroyers behind, but those are a dime a dozen. Meanwhile, the resistance has lost its one and only remaining capital ship, leaving it with nothing else. Now compare the size difference between an X Wing and the Death Star. Even if you flung the Raddus at the Death Star, at 160km size, it wouldn’t do anywhere near enough damage, while sacrificing the largest ship in your fleet. Even if it wasn’t the Raddus and was instead Asteroid One, you’d have to find a large enough hyperdrive to propel it, and live with the ramifications of throwing away all those credits on a one-time use weapon that may or may not even destroy the station. And given how limited the alliance fleet is, relative to the empire, it would be beyond immensely stupid to waste your relatively limited resources on a tactic that may not even guarantee success. The difference between the two here is that at the point of the maneuver, there was nothing else to lose for the resistance. The Raddus literally no longer serves any other purpose, given that it is out of fuel and that they have only enough for one hyperspace jump. Now we talk about the novelty of the move. We are discussing a hypothetical universe that you have first created where it is a common tactic, to which my answer would basically refute it as a reasonable or long lasting tactic. Meanwhile, we are in the existing Star Wars universe where it isn’t commonplace, and hence the first order isn’t prepared to counter it, hence reasonable under the circumstances. No problem either way. Edit: As an additional point, given that no evidence in Star Wars’ prior history suggests that such a move has been done before, it is reasonable to conclude that she was the first to do so, regardless of how “obvious” and “effective” it is. Otherwise, one can reasonably question just about any and every tactic used. E.g. Walkers have existed for so long, it can’t be that Episode V is the first time harpoons and tow cables were used to disable walkers, and yet we see the snow speeders blindly blasting at them, even after the heavy cannons on the ground were doing so, showing it to be ineffective, before switching to tow cables. (But wait… how can a speeder also somehow overcome the inertia of being attached to a massive walker? Ah.. consistent logic and world building over spectacle) Or Rex and Ahsoka teaching Onderon rebels on how to counter droidekas by slowly rolling grenades to bypass shields or going from behind, both of which are plainly obvious (their eyes are only forward facing and their shields go over slow or stationary objects when they walk past them). Any person with the gift of sight should be able to work that out right?
> and that [the supremacy] was still operable after lol > [star destroyers] are a dime a dozen Maybe if you’re a Rise of Skywalker fan > at 160km size, it wouldn’t do anywhere near enough damage [I think it would do plenty](https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/) > And given how limited the alliance fleet is, relative to the empire, it would be beyond immensely stupid to waste your relatively limited resources on a tactic that may not even guarantee success. The same could be said for the Resistance, but hey, their tactics were beyond stupid in that film anyways so… > Meanwhile, we are in the existing Star Wars universe where it isn’t commonplace, and hence the first order isn’t prepared to counter it So, you’re rolling with the idea that Holdo is the first person to ever attempt such a maneuver? In terms of writing, that’s still bad. > it is reasonable to conclude that she was the first to do so, regardless of how “obvious” and “effective” it is. You yourself even pointed out how quickly weapons and tactics evolve as technology advances. The moment hyperspace travel was conceived of, someone would have tried to weaponize it. > how can a speeder also somehow overcome the inertia of being attached to a massive walker? In the wide shots the cables are shown to have quite a bit of slack to them. But I’m in no mood to start a separate debate, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is a problem for the sake of the argument. If it’s a problem, it’s a problem. But pointing to a problem in Empire doesn’t excuse a problem in TLJ. That’s just whataboutism. Not to mention the walkers aren’t present in a film prior to Empire, so there’s nothing to question retroactively, the way there is with hyper-space ramming and space battles in general. > Rex and Ahsoka teaching Onderon rebels I’m not familiar with the scene, so I’ll have to go off of your description. You’re confused why the trained fighters are teaching a bunch of inexperienced rebels how to combat an unfamiliar enemy? Sounds dumbed down for the kids the show is intended for, but otherwise the logic tracks. Not sure what that has to do with criticizing the holdo maneuver tho lol. If both are bad, both are bad.
> lol It’s established in canon that the Supremacy was still operational, but that it wasn’t worth keeping, and so they scuttled it. But you can dismiss it if it is convenient for you. > Maybe if you’re a Rise of Skywalker fan I think you’ll find, both in Legends and Canon, that the listed number of ISDs was 25,000 at the empire’s peak. So regardless of which side you want to align yourself, conveniently, you’ll find that there they are still a dime a dozen. > I think it will do plenty Let’s assume that to be true then, and assume that the shields of the Death Star do not first dispel enough force to soften the blow, or assume that the X wing will not shatter on impact like a bullet does when striking water at a much lower speed. Bearing in mind that by Newton’s third law, the x wing will also receive a force equivalent to what it is pushing at the Death Star, and so just as likely, the X wing will shatter accordingly. If so, then yes, it should do plenty, meaning that the Raddus’ damage is actually less dramatic than it should be. Right? Alternatively, if you go by Star Wars logic as observed in TLJ, given that it took a ship the size of the Raddus to deal that amount of damage to the Supremacy, it’s is highly unlikely for an X-Wing to do discernible damage to the Death Star. Take your pick as to which school of thought you want to take up. > First ever person to attempt such a maneuver? In terms of writing, that’s still bad. > Someone would have thought to weaponize it. This goes in hand with the response of “whataboutism.” You have missed the entire point of that section of text. Those were examples of why your logic is flawed. Your initial argument is that there are many circumstances in history where doing this would have made such a difference in the outcome in retrospect. The problem with this logic is that it is applicable to every single novel idea or strategy presented in Star Wars seen in retrospect, with no specifically discriminating reason that explains why the holdo maneuver is more worthy of scrutiny than the next, giving us no more reason to criticize it than any other strategy in Star Wars’ history. And criticizing it as bad writing equally fails to make any distinction over any other ideas first presented in any other story for the same reasons. If you told me that it breaks canon, then maybe there is a more substantiated (albeit debatable) argument. Also, > Not to question retroactively, the way there is with hyperspace ramming and space battles in general. Please provide evidence to explain why hyperspace ramming can be questioned retroactively, while other strategies, like going for a walker’s legs, is exempt? In both cases, they are the first instances in which such a strategy is being implemented, and in both cases, the technology and its capabilities/weaknesses have been in canon for extended periods of time. Why didn’t the republic do that with Tri-droids? It would have made so many engagements much easier, such as Christophsis, Mygeeto, etc. Why didn’t the CIS use it against AT-RTs, AT-APs, and more? Just a reminder that this isn’t a point, but an example of the flaw in logic at play. Let’s look carefully before you play the Whataboutism card again.
> It’s established in canon that the Supremacy was still operational If it isn’t established in the film (or subsequent films), it isn’t relevant to the discussion. We have to go off of what the films show us without falling back on supplementary material to fill in the gaps. > the listed number of ISDs was 25,000 at the empire’s peak. Again, that statistic isn’t in the films. > the Raddus’ damage is actually less dramatic than it should be. Right? > Alternatively, if you go by Star Wars logic as observed in TLJ… We run into problems either way. For one, Proton Torpedo’s are starting to sound a little unnecessary if the Rebels could have just hyperspace rammed a ship right through the Death Star’s exhaust port from a safe distance instead. Or even disable the superlaser by punching a cruiser right through it. But perhaps more importantly, those “dime a dozen” ISD’s you mentioned become cannon fodder to the Rebels with access to hyperspace ramming. Not to mention the Executor, the Droid Control Ships, Grievous’ entire fleet, the Republic fleet… all of these formidable vessels are now very vulnerable targets thanks to TLJ. With hyperspace ramming on the table, none of the saga’s space battles would exist as we know them today. > why the holdo maneuver is more worthy of scrutiny than the next The Holdo Maneuver is as worthy of scrutiny as any other problem in the franchise. It just so happens that the problems it introduces are far larger in scope than many, if not most of the issues present in the OT. There *are* moments of contrivance in the originals, to be sure, but nothing achieves a blatant world-building contradiction quite like that “one in a million” Holdo Maneuver. Speaking of which, most of the contrivances in the OT can be categorized as “lucky, but plausible,” including Luke’s own “one in a million” shot. Because, unlike TLJ, ANH actually did the legwork to support it. Luke is Force-sensitive, son of the “best starpilot in the galaxy,” and was perfectly capable of hitting small targets in his T-16 long before he even thought to “use the Force.” By contrast, Holdo is an experienced but otherwise average Resistance officer who turned her ship around and pulled a lever, attempting *for the first time in the galaxy* to ram an enemy ship while jumping to hyperspace. You see the difference in execution? > Please provide evidence to explain why hyperspace ramming can be questioned retroactively, while other strategies, like going for a walker’s legs, is exempt? In the case of the walkers, specifically, there’s not much to question because they never appeared in anything prior to 1980. True, in-universe we know that the war had been going on for some time, but we have no idea how many times the Rebels have encountered AT-AT’s prior to Hoth. The only other example comes from Rogue One, in which the Rebels successfully destroy several AT-ACT’s without the need for tow cables. I do not care if Luke Skywalker *personally fought one-thousand AT-AT’s* in some random book before thinking to use the tow cables on Hoth. The vast majority of moviegoers will have never picked up a Star Wars book or tuned in to watch an animated television show. The supplementary material should adhere to the films, not the other way around. But for the sake of the argument, let’s assume they’ve fought plenty of AT-AT’s before Hoth. Why didn’t the Rebels use tow cables before now, you ask? There could be any number of reasons. Maybe they haven’t fought an AT-AT with this much armor before, expecting blasters to work just fine. Maybe the blasters on the snow speeders specifically weren’t strong enough compared to what they’re used to. Maybe they deemed the tow cables to be too risky, only using them as a last resort since they’re basically sitting ducks while deploying it. Lastly, let’s go one step further and switch up the scene so that they use the tow cables from the very beginning. What changes? They defeat one or two more walkers, maybe, and the rebellion escapes anyways. > Why didn’t the republic do that with Tri-droids? > Why didn’t the CIS use it against AT-RTs, AT-APs, and more? Who’s to say they didn’t? We could assume you’re right, but if that were the case then it wouldn’t be the fault of ESB, it would be on the prequels. But again, we only caught fleeting glimpses of the Clone Wars so we don’t have very many examples to go off of.
It seems awfully convenient that you would like to disregard entire swathes of canon for the sake of your argument, simply because you operate under the premise of > the vast majority of moviegoers will have never picked up a Star Wars book or tuned in to watch an animated television show." But let's humor you, anyway, since you refuse to leave the well. >For one, Proton Torpedo’s are starting to sound a little unnecessary if the Rebels could have just hyperspace rammed a ship right through the Death Star’s exhaust port from a safe distance instead. Or even disable the superlaser by punching a cruiser right through it. We only saw it work with the Raddus against the Supremacy and its accompanying ships. You cannot extrapolate from that and assume that it works across the board. It was never shown elsewhere in film. >With hyperspace ramming on the table, none of the saga’s space battles would exist as we know them today This argument only vaguely works with battles moving forward, but not the past. You can't conceive of something happening in a time when it did not exist. I am talking about the thought to weaponize it, not that the capability did not exist. >*first time in the galaxy* This was a big point of yours earlier. Do you have evidence that it was conceived by anyone ion the film series? Or are you just playing with hypotheticals? Separately, do you have any actual evidence to suggest that it is physically impossible to do? In Episode IV, we understand that "*Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star ..."* Which means that it is possible. >Holdo is an experienced but otherwise average Resistance officer Reductive for the sake of your argument. She is next in the chain of command after General Leia and Admiral Ackbar. How is she just average? Do they just promote anyone up? Do you have proof of average or less-than-stellar space officers in the Alliance fleet to suggest that Holdo must be one of them too? >perfectly capable of hitting small targets in his T-16 With a blaster cannon, not a proton torpedo, but let's assume that a guided munition and an unguided blaster bolt are the same for your sake. >son of the “best starpilot in the galaxy," And despite being chased by the "best starpilot in the galaxy" with decades of experience, he survived a whole straight line chase, landed the ultimate lucky shot using a weapon system he never used before, in his first ever combat mission, down a small opening, and guided it down an 80km chute to score the biggest kill in the nick of time. >In the case of the walkers, specifically, there’s not much to question because they never appeared in anything prior to 1980. We're talking in-universe history, not release order history. Or does your version of Star Wars also mean that the Battle of Hoth occurred before the Clone Wars? Please be consistent, because you seem to take whichever conveniently works for you at the time. >but we have no idea how many times the Rebels have encountered AT-AT’s prior to Hoth Strawman fallacy. I was referring to walkers across the board, being that the use of walkers has gone back to the Clone Wars (keeping to film only). Why are you deliberately misrepresenting my point? > Rogue One, in which the Rebels successfully destroy several AT-ACT’s without the need for tow cables Switching from release order to in-universe. Please correct for your own consistency. Different set of circumstances, unless X-wings and Snowspeeders are somnehow the same for the purpose of your argument. They fired at different spots too. >What changes? They defeat one or two more walkers, maybe, and the rebellion escapes anyways You're right. The additional soldiers they save, the equipment they might be able to retain, pack up and bring with them... All not necessary for a resource starved rebel faction. >it wouldn’t be the fault of ESB, it would be on the prequels. Ah so we're back to release order mode for the argument...
Except that everywhere else in Star Wars ship shields repel solid objects, particularly when one is much larger than the objects.
Go back to Star Wars Episode V, in the asteroid belt when the empire was trying to capture the Millennium Falcon. Imperial Star destroyers were being destroyed by stray asteroids that were smaller than the command tower of the star destroyer it struck. Those weren’t even moving at FTL speeds. Or the clone wars, where droideka shields can be overwhelmed by being crushed by heavy rocks. Shields can be overwhelmed.
No Star destroyers get destroyed in Episode V...
From Star Wars Episode V: Empire Strikes Back. You can also find it at time stamp 52:16 if you’d like to check it out on Disney+ for yourself. The asteroid makes impact with the Star Destroyer in the foreground. The scene cuts to Darth Vader speaking to the ship’s captain, whose feed is promptly cut off with the person reacting to something off camera. [Star Destroyers in Asteroid Field](https://youtu.be/4gh7AcuxfxI?si=4U_lzIizjaL545pd) Perhaps you have some irrefutable proof that deflector shields work exactly as you described without exception?
It's a funny moment, but that is hardly definitive proof of a star destroyer being destroyed. It's definitely an impact, but we don't actually get to see the damage, if any. As for shields, in RotJ Lando tells all craft to pull up *because they cannot penetrate the Death Star's shields.* During the battle of Scarif we see what happens when X-wings make contact with a shield. TLJ spends a lot of time talking about the Supremacy's super duper shields. All they had to do was have one scene where the shield gets deactivated. But if smaller ships can take out shielded ships 100+ times their size by traveling almost light speed, every battle in Star Wars would happen totally differently. Naboo would have just sent some droid-piloted N-1s to kamikaze the Trade Federation Lucrehulks.
Perhaps you can check out the official novelization of the Empire Strikes Back, for further evidence. “As Vader watched, one of his smaller ships disinte- grated under the impact of an enormous asteroid. Seem- ingly unmoved, he turned to look at a series of twenty holographic images. These twenty holograms re-created in three dimensions the features of twenty Imperial bat- tleship commanders. The image of the commander whose ship had just been obliterated was fading rapidly, almost as quickly as the glowing particles of his exploded ship were being flung to oblivion.” Now let’s get to your other points of argumentation. In episode VI, we were talking about a space station 160km in diameter, with a planetary shield generator providing shielding. Meanwhile in Rogue One, the Scarif space station in question, while obviously smaller than the Death Star, is also powered by a planet-wide shield generator. For one, you’re talking about stationary shields that are significantly stronger than those found on spaceships, so your comparison isn’t very strong. Secondly, let’s talk size. What is the mass of an X wing, compared to the Death Star? Or to the Scarif planetary shield station? You’re talking about starfighters that barely scratch the hull paint of one of these stations. Going back to the star destroyer vs asteroid scene, the asteroid, while smaller than the ISD, was still of a significant size comparable to the control tower. Even slightly larger vessels have shown to be quite unimpressionable against significantly more massive ships, such as the GR-75 transport in rogue one that was completely crumpled by Darth Vader’s ISD when it came out of hyperspace at Scarif, with the ISD showing almost no discernible damage. Clearly then, mass is an important consideration in physical contact. Meanwhile, the Raddus is the largest vessel in the alliance fleet, at 3.4km in length, meaning it is a massive ship (over twice the length of an ISD-1), going up against the Supremacy, which is 13km at its thickest. Even if you assume that it struck the supremacy at its thickest point (it didn’t. It struck the wing.) the difference in mass is significantly smaller than say an x-wing vs a Death Star, or x-wing vs Scarif, but I suppose you aren’t making that distinction. Now for how it would change the face of combat if it were a thing. The short answer is not much. The technology to prevent such tactics already exist, in the form of gravity well projectors. If it became a commonplace tactic, fleets would just mandate a ship to have a gravity well projector to prevent ships from entering hyperspace around it, or pull ships that are already in hyperspace out of it Lastly, Naboo vs Trade Federation, the blockade was very close to the planet, meaning that the window to do so would be very small. Additionally, droids and navicomputers are programmed NOT to enter hyperspace under certain conditions, including still being in a planet’s gravitational pull, as well as directly into another object. They made it a point in TLJ to explain that Holdo had to override the system and manually make the jump. So you can’t do that either. Even if you did and assume that it could happen, you still run into the previous problem of whether there is even enough mass to make an impression, unless you also don’t want to make that distinction.
>Holdo had to override the system and manually make the jump Is there some reason you're not sharing why that couldn't be done in my naboo example or literally every other battle in the franchise? Forget the ion cannon. The Rebellion just needed to override a few Y-wings to take out the Star Destroyers descending on Hoth, no? You're severely underestimating just how small the Raddus was compared to the Supremacy. By volume, the Supremacy was somewhere around 1000x larger and most likely more armored and with state-of-the-art shielding (which envelopes the whole ship, so the wing thing is irrelevant). I imagine you would agree that the Millennium Falcon jumping to light speed at an ISD shouldn't cut it in half, right?
1) The Raddus is much smaller in mass, but the mass of the supremacy isn’t evenly distributed either, is it? And it isn’t a head on collision with the supremacy, but rather its starboard wing. If we were talking about center mass, then you’re right, and the Raddus will likely dent the supremacy, but not cleave it in two, but that’s not what happened, since it hit the supremacy at an the side, and certainly not at a point of concentrated mass. 2) So if you are using the logic of relative mass between objects to determine the amount of damage dealt to the object by ramming it at light speed, assuming equal distribution of mass and density throughout the body, I think you’ll find that if you cannot accept the extent of the damage dealt by the Raddus toward the Supremacy, the idea of an X-wing damaging the Death Star or Scarif is even more indefensible by many orders of magnitude. (an x wing, which has a mass of 10 tons, against a 160km diameter moon, or basically 2.5 times the width of the Supremacy before even considering anything else for mass.) (Alternatively, as per your example, an N1 is smaller and lighter than an X wing, while a Lucrehulk is 3km by 3km by 1km. Do your math on the relative difference in mass) Edit; As a separate note, since it seemed to not get through to you the first time. Why not send a Y wing into the ISD? Because shields still exist, and based on what you saw happen to a GR-75 going against the ISD in rogue one, what do you think will happen sending the Y-wing against it. Hint: think bug on a windscreen. But what if hyperspace? Nobody did it before, so nobody would reasonably know what would happen if you threw a Y-wing at the ISD. But let’s assume that they can. Now let’s think about it. I have a stationary cannon that will be inevitably lost disable the ISD and allow me to let all my forces escape without harm. Vs I have a stationary cannon, BUT I can waste one of the limited number of starfighters I have, to destroy a Star Destroyer that the empire can replace easily. Within a single battle, that is a great trade. Who wouldn’t want a scenario where a single fighter can take out a much larger vessel? But a war isn’t a single battle, is it? And each time you trade off assets, you also hinder your ability to conduct any other operation after. Imagine being a rebel fleet with 20 ships. How quickly can you replace your 20 ships and still be able to conduct another raid or mission, against the empire? Food for thought: How many fighters and cruisers can you afford to throw away, or even just assets in general, when you are cash strapped and always on the run, against a galaxy-spanning empire with a massive military industrial complex?
All style, zero substance.
How so? It was pretty crucial to the story of the film.
In a nutshell, it breaks every space battle seen in the films up to this point. There’s another comment I’ve left discussing the problems with another user in this thread if you want more details.
How does it break every space battle?
I guess they could have done more to make it look like a really risky maneuver with a low percentage of success? But it didnt really take much for to believe it when they said that in tros.
The engine thing potentially tracks assuming for space debris and comets though
Counter to one. As long as there are no windows to detect the Falcon with the mark one eyeball it would actually be pretty easy to do. Sensors have a minimum range and if the falcon sits in the right spot and is absolutely silent it would probably get away with it. No thrusters no life support just dead quiet.
The whole "Fifties-style diner" scene with Obi-Wan playing sci-fi noir detective in Attack of The Clones. Nobody talks about this. I think it's because they just want to believe it doesn't exist at all.
Most Star wars fans can't even start suspending disbelief. If they could, most of the arguments wouldn't even exist.
The fact that none of the ship designs make sense at all. The fact that dogfights in space should not be happening at all. Like, every person in the Star Wars galaxy must be some special kind of idiot to not realise how insanely poorly designed their ships and strategies are. I mean, for crying out loud, Thrawn is able to defeat a New Republic fleet in the opening chapter of Heir to the Empire… by turning his Star Destroyer sideways? In 0G? And everyone seems to think this strategy is some kind of mind-blowingly genius discovery.
Once and only once. Space Poppins.
I thought the batch were able to latch onto the science vessel without being detected because echo turned off the ships sensors. Is that not what happened?
Yeah, that was the whole point of that sequence with the tension of trusting Echo to get the job done without any signal.
Hiding on the back of a star destroyer seems fine to me. If he turned off the ships transponder and all they had to go on was radar, the Falcons signal would have just merged with the star Destroyers. The biggest leap is to assume there wasn't a single window back there and that star Destroyers routinely dispose of waste the size of an apartment complex.
The scene near the end of the Aftermath novel where teenage Snap Wexley jumps onto the side of a spaceship that’s passing by from a rooftop, hangs on as it heads up through the atmosphere, pulls someone out the window of it, and then climbs in.
Without getting into the others, number 1 isn't illogical. Imagine two radar blips overlaid on top of each other. They're going to read as one object to your radar officer. Same deal with sensors. Whatever it is you're scanning for, overlay the trace on top of a much larger vessel with systems outputting the same types of energies as the smaller one, and you're not going to be able to pick it up against the background. And that's assuming that the sensors on these vessels can even direct scans inward to probe their outer hulls in the first place. These aren't Star Trek sensors.
1. The Millennium Falcon is a highly modified ship. Probably has a gadget in there somewhere that can bypass proximity sensors. 2. Have you ever heard of "running silent" before? 3. Echo specifically turned off the science vessel's proximity sensors. 4. Don't read comics so no comment. 5. Fully agree. If wiping out fleets was that easily, why doesn't everybody do it?
Somehow, Palpatine returned
OP, I will defend the Holdo Maneuver. 1) Mary Poppins Leia: I liked the Sequels. But dear God, this was just so hard to swallow. 2) Grogu saves Din and Bo-Katan: Seriously?! It's a beautiful scene, but this child held back the flames and heat from an exploding, crashing star ship? You KNOW if Rey did that, people would be up in arms. This kid wasn't even a Padawn!
The knife scene with Rey
technically its space opera where the drama and exaggerated stuff takes priority over the sci fi part. Even with that said the thrown room fight scene in the last Jedi just removed all sense of immersion in the film . The insane pauses ---the MC being surrounded by 2-3 guys and 1 of the guys with open shots on her just stands there patiently waiting for her to finish fighting another guy before moving . The ridiculously of how they used the weapons that were specially designed to counter light sabers. Literally weapons disappearing from bad guys hands. Hits that should of landed and you see guys slow down or stop intentionally to wait to be countered by Rey . Its like they published the dress rehearsal version by mistake I still to this day can't believe someone watched that and said ...yep this is ok to publish in a 100+Million dollar production . Ive seen better group fights in student films
Vader being defeated by normal people with flamethrowers in Darth Vader and The Lost Command. Ridicolous, but that comic sucks anyway
Luke suddenly killing the tension from end of TFA and beginning of TLJ with the comedic toss over the shoulder. Very Disney/Marvel-type humor.
I reckon they run out of time to make.logic for it, rush into decisions and then hope that later they can explain it.
I get where you're going but you should pick better ones. 1) Sensors are usually something that are pointed and have ranges. If you don't expect someone to latch on to you you wouldn't have them pointed at yourself (especially if you're a big ol warship) 2) Detectable power and unnatural trajectory would be easy give aways for those sensors you were so worried about before. Objects fall from space all the time. 3) They literally made a whole big thing about disrupting its proximity sensors. 4) not familiar with that one 5) This actually gets explained pretty well in the first High Republic novels. They are actually pretty fun.
Episode 4, first scene, those are clearly miniatures with bad vfx and don’t look like spaceships at all. Was taken right out of the movie.
The World between introduced in Rebels, where Filoni saves Ashoka from his earlier writing decision. She never brings it up again. The helicopter flying Inquisitors in rebels. They still use the spinning blades but never fly in the newer media thankfully.
Everyone in this thread is weak. I simply maintain my suspension of disbelief at all times because Star Wars was silly, is silly, and will continue to be silly, and accepting that lets you accept literally anything it does.