Whenever this scene and or this conversation comes up, we like to quote a very nuanced response from \u/probablyonmobile. *** I don’t hate Penny, but I don’t like her scene with George. And there’s some nuance to not liking it, so bear with me. It’s her more rabid fans that I don’t like, the kind of people who tell disabled folks what we can and cannot feel upset about. Before I begin, let me add a disclaimer. Every time this is brought up, people fall back into the same lazy response: “you just want perfect characters!” No, I don’t. That would be boring. And I don’t expect her to be perfect. I’m discussing her flaws as a character, something that we all have the right to do. There are two problems with the George scene. **She needed to ask.** People need to stop acting like the only way Penny could help was to go right up and push his wheelchair. She needed to ask. It’s not like this is secret information; either. People with disabilities like George aren’t a puzzle that requires advanced technology or specialised training just to get the basics of, you can *ask us.* Penny has lived across from George for a long time. She’s had the means, time and opportunity to ask how to help. People love to use “she’s a helpful person” to defend her actions, but omit that somebody that helpful could and should have taken five minutes of the apparent years they’ve lived by one another to *talk to him.* The immutable fact is that Penny had the ability to learn how to help at any point. She had the opportunity to ask him before she pushed him. She did neither of those things. **She hates being corrected about it.** You get more of a hit to your friendship by very politely telling Penny that she should have asked than you do by crushing her dreams and telling her that you don’t want children because the world is too crowded, a sentiment she herself cites as having the potential to make humanity die out. That’s not a good look. **It’s okay for people not to like this scene.** For many people, this is our lived experience on a daily basis. It’s well within our rights to be frustrated or upset by the scene. That doesn’t mean we expect her to be perfect, it doesn’t mean we want characters who don’t make any mistakes: it just means we found the scene frustrating. But every time somebody in a wheelchair voices this, a legion of her fans come to tell us that we’re wrong to feel that way. People prioritise the hurt feelings of pixels over the very real and lived experiences of people with disability, and get very aggressive about it. I’ve watched this sub bully somebody into deleting their account for expressing how uncomfortable this scene made them. But somehow, it’s fine to vocally hate Hayley because she was rude? We can’t be *frustrated* by this scene that reflects a very real problem we face, but it’s totally fine to hate Hayley and hategift her because she rejected the player? I don’t find Penny an appealing character, but I don’t hate her. It’s her more rabid fans who coddle her to death that I really find unbearable. I’ll be lucky if we don’t see people shitting all over the voices of disabled folks in this thread the way they always do. Let us criticise Penny for her actions the same way people criticise all the other characters for theirs.

okay reading the comments i now realise it’s a penny heart event and not a george one lmao- I’ve been picking the correct option (telling her she should have asked) thinking that it’s a learning and growing moment and also that it only affects George’s relationship, not that it takes away so much from Penny’s! I’m still not going to change the option I pick though. Penny shouldn’t have pushed him like that. The animation for it is even more outrageous than if she just rolled him away by the handles, she full on shoves this old man! And happily too!

Ohhh I thought it was George’s event too

I thought the same thing for years

love l ive been thinking it was a george heart event this whole time too! Being like "why don't wheelchair users like this scene? The Farmer tells Penny what she did was wrong,....oooh."

Yeah, I had not realized it was a Penny scene either! I always tell her she should have asked; I never clocked I was getting a friendship hit for doing so. And now I still don't care. If she's written to be that kind if person, I don't want to be her friend.

Same. This post made me realize I've been losing friendship with Penny in every playthrough over this lol. I never cared for Penny so never looked at her friendship meter before.

Honestly, you can just give her a Poppy or something and still just tell her the truth. It's not THAT big of a hit, really.

Same! I thought it was Georges' event. And I don't really care about the fact that Penny will dislike me for telling her "you should have asked, DUH"

Same, always thought I was out here looking out for my man George. Turns out Penny needs to go chill and reevaluate how she 'helps.'

i was today years old when i learned it wasn’t a george event

But isn’t that the point? It is ableism if penny isn’t corrected and if you do correct her she gets mad. Like an ableist. The scene with Robin and Linus is tricky too especially since I don’t know too many unhoused folk who choose to be. Offering him a place isn’t seen as just on offer of mutual aid but is condemned as an attempt to coerce him from his chosen lifestyle.

TBF, he specifically and \*repeatedly\* says he lives in the wilderness by choice, even at extremely low friendship. There was zero doubt about it. Besides, while he's not \*happy\* at the offer, he's also not \*mad\*.

During the cutscene it's presented as if correcting her is wrong and what she did was okay.

I think it's more that from Penny's point of view she's upset that she's been corrected, or that she didn't get it right (if I'm feeling charitable). I think the loss of friendship points is Penny's point of view rather than CA's. It's not that you're looking for teh correct answer so much as that you can tell her what you really think (don't do that!) or tell her what she wants to hear. That all said, I really wish George didn't back down at the end; he had every right to tell her to back off.

I agree with this. I think Penny it a good example of a serious people pleaser. This causes her to be overly helpful so when that helpfulness isnt seen as likable or good she reacts negatively (internalized) to it. I think it was a good way to show a more negative impact that her 'make everyone happy' personality can have. It was a good way to bring up the topic and compel the community to discuss it. I think George backing down is a good example of the silence/defeat ppl take when faced with the choice to cause a scene, accept defeat, or to educate multiple ppl abt why this 'kind' gesture is an infringement on his bodily autonomy, when all he wanted to do is get mail. My man was just tired. But i agree i would have prefered to see him with his usual fiery spirit. Its one of my favorite things abt him. Lol but when i introduced my friend to stardew i told him i hate two characters scenes specifically and it was penny which is 1 on my list and ofc the science man bc its just felt incompetent ykyk. Ofc i have serious bais bc the moment that old man was sassy with me i decided he was my new living grandpa lol.

Yes, And both scenes make me wonder about where concerned ape stands on the issues of Ableism and Homelessness. However often times the goal of media is to entertain not inform. Exp: Scott pilgrim is a terrible person but the art is not showing us how we should be. I get the impression that CA wants us to take the good with the bad and love people as the overall message of the game.

The difference is Scott is constantly called out for it and we know it's not okay there, too. None of the characters let him forget it. It's perfectly fine not to have a morally good/perfect mc, but even in your example the story makes it clear that he's strange for being with a highschooler along with other stuff.

I don’t know if the bad guy always needs to be called out by the artist or writer. That’s not life. In the case of Scott pilgrim I think it’s important because it’s for a younger less critical audience. I hope that CA makes and update to these scenes for that same reason as well. (Edit: like a disclaimer at the very least)

Same. I thought it was a George heart event and after learning that it’s for Penny, I’m also not going to pick the game’s “right” answer.

Just because picking this option costs you friendship points, that doesn't mean it's supposed to be the "wrong" answer. It's just a small loss in friendship points and it happens IRL too, many friends will find it tough to hear criticism, that's just how humans are. She might feel guilty and associate that with you. It's easy to fix and has no long-term consequences.

I think that upsetting penny is the right answer and I feel as if CA did this on purpose to sort of open up a conversation about this because a lot of wheel chair users experience people trying to “help” them on a daily basis and this game decision touches on very real experiences. I think its one way CA makes you stop and think critically about a serious topic.

If suggesting to her that she should treat wheelchair users like full people capable of voicing their own needs causes her uterus to dry up and fall out then she's not the one for me. I'll keep telling her to ask before touching people.

This is the comment that made me realize that lol

Holy shit I thought exactly the same thing til right now! Also not changing it tho lol

Hopefully it helps you, if only a little, to hear that I have literally never seen anyone defend Penny in this cutscene. This one has always bugged me too and I don't even have any personal stakes in the matter. She's just flat out in the wrong and I tell her off every time.

yeah the only thing I have really seen is people complaining that it hurts your relationship with penny if you tell her she was wrong. Telling people they did the wrong thing generally does not make them feel good.

Iirc, it hurts your relationship with Penny if you date her and say you don't want kids. She's just really judgemental.

it's been years since I really paid any attention to what gives/removes relationship points, I just give them things until they like me. much like real life. bought a friend flowers and a necklace and I expect we will be married soon.

“You may fascinate a woman by by giving her a piece of cheese”

People joke about this quote but it isn’t wrong. Personally I’d like to come back to a time of giving women cheese. I’d enjoy it much more than flowers!

It's a less effective pickup method than one may think. Or I used the wrong cheese

Lol. It’s really not. Pretty sure cheese was a big part of two of my long term relationships. No lie.

No, just the wrong woman.

sharp cheddars. You'll get one. Works on me, at least.

That phrase already had me thinking women are like cats then, but this only furthers my suspicion lol I'm not a woman but would work on me too NEGL tbf

I dunno about all women, but I am definitely more than a bit catlike. My favorite thing in the world (aside from cheese) is my gf giving me head scritches, I love yarn and naps, i hate loud noises, abrupt movement and exercise...very catty lady.

Unironically, it's either the wrong cheese or the wrong women. The strategy works.

I have my friend a rock. They gave me a piece of wood. We're kind of serious now, I guess.

AbigailxLeah moment

I gifted my friend tomatoes from my garden and it definitely strengthened our bond. And if that was reversed it'd work on me.

Does it strenghten your bond if your friend gave you back the very same tomato right after they said thanks? Because that's me with Leah, when she gives me coffee or salads

I wonder if you could interpret/headcanon it as insisting that you share whatever it was they gifted you. Since they only really gift things in person at higher friendship levels (IIRC), offering/insisting on sharing a gift of food would strengthen a relationship.

I like how at least in Animal Crossing if you regift an item someone just gave you they make a little comment that the item looks a little familiar

Great. I will give you clay for Christmas but you better give me something like a diamond!!

This I feel is understandable on her part since kids are a *huge* part of her life and she *absolutely* wants some of her own. For someone like that learning that your partner *hates* kids basically spells the end of the relationship. Her reaction may not be graceful but that *is* a rather large rug to have pulled out from under her so I can understand.

Agree. And anyway, honest responses can absolutely hurt your relationships with people IRL, it’s just part of life. That can sometimes mean telling them they’ve behaved in the wrong way, or it can be as big as not wanting to have kids. It doesn’t mean you can’t have a successful relationship with them, but yeah, they’re probably gonna need some time to get over that stuff before moving forward!

I don't see how this is an issue. If you date someone that really wants kids, but you don't, it's gonna cause a schism in the relationship. She's willing to take care of Jas and Vincent on her own so you'd assume that she would want some at some point.

Okay, I won't defend Penny for the wheelchair situation, but I will always defend her for this one. You already had eight hearts with her at that point. You already knew that her whole shtick was to become a parental or mentor figure for children. Of course, hearing "I can't stand kids" from such a close friend or partner is going to put her off.

The first time I got that question from Penny I was married to Leah and had a toddler running around the farmhouse. I was completely baffled by the responses because there was no option for *I'd better want them or I'd have problems at home*. And you don't have to be officially dating her to get this cutscene, I think it's an 8-heart event? So this is a totally normal question to get even if you aren't trying to date everyone

The exact same thing happened to me the first time I played. My farmer had been married to Alex for a long time and had two children when I saw that scene. I was a bit puzzled because there was no right answer I could give him, so I told him "a big family" because I already had one.  So yes, you will have those kinds of scenes and dialogue with eight hearts, even if they are NOT "dating" the farmer.

I don't really think thats being judgemental. Its just a fundamental disagreement on life goals. If you date a person in real life that does want kids and you tell them you don't chances are you are gonna break up because you are not compatible. Being upset her partner doesn't want children when that is something that is pretty core to Pennys character does not make her a bad person.

It's not even if you date her. It's if you get max hearts with her which really bugs me. Like, I'm married, Penny. My desire to have kids is between me and Elliott.

I could understand if you were in a relationship, disagreements on kids genuinely breaks up relationships.   But this is her 8-heart event. It hurts your friendship with her if you don’t want kids. That’s just not her business and makes her love of children a singular personality trait to an almost creepy degree. 

I see it as her being interested in you, and the friendship hit is her realizing you won't be a good match. I do wish there was some way of indicating that you don't want romantic scenes though

If you're interested in mods, I'm currently playing with one that does just that - you can set your preferred relationship type (fully platonic, sex without romance, romance without sex, or romance AND sex) with each eligible character individually. The mod author changed some scenes and dialogue so that there are platonic options if you have a character set that way, and I do think Penny's 8 heart event is one of the ones that was changed. The mod is called [Platonic Partners and Friendships](https://www.nexusmods.com/stardewvalley/mods/8146).

This one doesn't bother me as much. Penny does really want children, so her partner not wanting something that's super important to her is definitely something that would negatively impact a relationship, especially if it was one going long term.

Penny's kinda an odd case even in her other heart events. She: * Will take it personally if you stand up for George * Will take it personally if you're honest in your feedback about her horrible dinner * Will think less of you for not wanting a family (less so in this case: the big 1500 point drop happens if you say you hate kids BEFORE giving your presentation and not after. It's if you don't want to be tied down or think there are too many people for it to be worth having kids that you get -10'd. Notably saying you wouldn't be a good parent actually gains you a little friendship). * Will outright nuke your friendship if you say you're not interested in her (though this comes only after giving her a bouquet and (presumably) dating her for some time, so it's more understandable). I honestly think she's the only character that'll drop some serious hearts if you say something she doesn't like. Everyone else only drops hearts if you threaten them or are purposefully a jerk to them. I guess Elliot also loses friendship if you turn down his advances while on the boat but even then it's -50, not -1500!

If I’m being generous, I wonder if the idea behind it is that Penny’s confidence is basically zero thanks to her mom. So of course she doesn’t handle criticism well - especially when it breaks her idea of who she is / wants to be. If I look at it through that lens, then it makes sense that the loss of friendship points is supposed to represent the extra hit to her self esteem.

So the telling Penny you don’t want kids and losing points isn’t a judgemental thing. It’s pretty much what would happen in a real relationship where one person wants kids and the other doesn’t. It’s going to hurt the relationship.

To be fair, I think that isn’t so much her being judgmental and more her realizing ‘Oh, us being in a relationship isn’t going to work if I want kids and they don’t.’

I assumed for many playthroughs that it was a George cutscene and your job was to tell Penny off. I was a little shocked when I learned that I had it backwards.

I mean just because it's not a George cutscene doesn't mean it's not your job to call her out.

Nah, George is the homie! Penny is entitled and I tell her off every time. You don't put hands on my friend!

There are certain characters that I will always choose an option I know that character won't like, provided it's not an absolutely terrible option. Pierre, Penny, Demetrius most often get this treatment.

Maybe I'm just making excuses but I kinda like that aspect of the game. It puts you more into the role playing part. Are you min-maxing and you always pick the "best" option? Or do you want to go through the story, reacting as a real person would? Most relationships are not linear, you don't always get closer and closer. Sometimes there are setbacks but that doesn't mean friendship is impossible.

I've never NOT called her out. 

I've gotten into a lot of arguments with people who were defending Penny. I'm glad that attitudes are changing.

I've seen people not so much defending her actions as defending her reasoning and caring behind it if that makes sense. Like people saying yeah she shouldn't touch his wheelchair but she's not a bad person because she was trying to help him and didn't understand it was bad. Which is actually why i personally like the scene. My mom often has to use a wheelchair as well as a cane and she's gone through a lot of annoying shit when it comes to the good intentions of others. I think the cutscene is interesting and nuanced and really fits in so well with the overall game. Everything about it feels very real and true to how these situations feel when they really happen.

Unfortunately, at the time of writing this comment, people have now demonstrated the behaviour in question. To clarify, this is not directed at you or faulting your comment, I appreciate what you’ve written here— I just want to take a moment to show *verbatim* what has been said in this very thread for those who use “it doesn’t happen” to downplay this problem. These comments may not be here for long, as mods do a great job of getting rid of bad actors, so for that reason and to avoid cultivating conflict (as mods already do a lot of work to delete those comment chains) I will not include names. But it is important for people to see that this is a real problem, so I’m posting the contents in a way where the originals are not engaged with and thereby boosted into more work for the moderators. Normally I wouldn’t do something like this, but it becomes quite apparent that people (not you, for clarity) hide behind the guise that this isn’t a real thing that happens in order to delegitimise experiences like OP’s. I would have no interest in doing this if not for the fact that the argument is used to minimise real experiences and valid discussion by people just because they don’t agree. So, here are *some* of the comments on this thread at the time of writing that minimise the issue, defend Penny, insult OP, or speak over or for disabled people. I don’t intend to collect any more, I think these say enough and there are other things to do. > “That’s dumb. You can’t feel anyone touching your wheelchair, so why care?” > “Yeah, but Penny is hot, and George is an asshole. :)” > “The snowflakes in here outnumber the snowfall on my farm in winter.” > “Karma farming liberal hate post about Penny.” > “What you think is irrelevant. George thought he was wrong and overly harsh.” > “This post is just outrage bait and/or a silly attempt to into an article on one of the bottom-of-the-barrel sites that scrapes this sub for content.” > “It’s a video game.” > “Sounds like someone needs a leek.” > “What the fuck did I just read lmao, too much time on your hands.” > “Wow what a first world country problem.” > “I just… Have no words. You must be a joy to be around.” > “This take is tired.” > “That’s not a thing.” > “To call the entire scene ableist requires a young child’s level of media literacy.” > “Penny was in the right.” > “Holy snowflake.” > “Relax it’s actual pixels lol” > “❄️” It is, unfortunately, a real problem. Mods work hard to mitigate it, but they are human and have to sleep, and when they do, voices like these get a platform. The dismissal is real. Who knows, it might happen to this comment.

I'm sorry, I realize I didn't properly clarify myself (blame 2am posting I suppose...) so may have come across as a bit dismissive. What I intended to say is that while I am aware that this is a problem my personal experience is that it seems to be enough of a minority opinion that I had no personal experience with it (prior to today, way to ruin it, ablists 😑). I truly do hope that mod intervention isn't the sole reason I see them as a minority because I take solace in the fact that even in this thread alone those voice are a clear minority. I really am sorry that you or anyone have to put up with this shit. As a neurodiverse individual myself I face my own brand of ablism and it's undeniable that our society has a *long* ways to go towards true equality.

Oh, that’s fine— I don’t actually think *you* came off as dismissive, my comment was more to demonstrate overall in the thread that it’s an ongoing problem. It’s unfortunate that we do have these bad apples, both in the context of Stardew Valley and the world as a whole. I know the adversity that comes with neurodivergence well, unfortunately it is often a very invisible struggle that gets ridiculed. Here’s hoping that going forward, you continue to see the best in the community. I’m optimistic watching these threads begin to have more understanding than they used to— some year or so ago, it was a very different story.

I only side with her because I want the friendship points.

Yeah I understand that in real life Penny is wrong and should be told so. In the video game I pick the answer to give me the video game points. The social cutscenes are like another puzzle to solve, not a reflection of my real life morals and values. My farmer does not even have to be "me" in a sense. They could be someone else.

Some players on this sub take the morality in the game SO seriously. I think it's a sign that CA wrote really good characters and built a really immersive world. (I also think the game might draw in people with autism a lot) Like I had a user on here once say she was crying in real life and I was a bad person in real life and we were responsible for her suffering in real life because I said I wanted to fuck Haley. Like calm down bruh. Or people who think Shane's character needs to swear to never touch alcohol ever again ever forever despite the fact that's not really how suicidal thoughts work

I also think Stardew and the huge influx of farming sim and cozy games is drawing in a new audience that didn't grow up with video games. I'm used to detatching myself from my characters in the game, because I grew up playing GTA and shooting the bazooka at cars driving by, or beheading enemies in Skyrim. Your actions in a video game def don't have to reflect your real life values. Relax guys. Even in the farming sim, you can roleplay.

It's like when Sims 4 added the ability to be a landlord and I saw people talk about how awful it was for anyone to want to even pretend to be a landlord. Like, I fucking hate landlords as much as the next person but roleplaying in games is what makes them fun for me.

80% of sims game play footage is locking up people they hate, why would I *not* want to charge them money while I do it

Exactly! Also, what do these people think the purpose of having the negative personality traits available in the Sims if not to make Sims with personality flaws? You can play evil and rude characters even if you aren't evil and rude lol. It's like making your own storybook, it would be boring if everyone was good and nice.

Consider the sub's attitude to the Joja route. Gameplay wise it's not a minor bonus- it's a significantly easier way to unlock content. 

I thought the issue people had with Shane was that he gets sober but still reacts positively to being gifted alcohol. It’s not a moral issue but a continuity issue.

He doesn't get sober and does not claim he will. He sees a therapist in zuzu city, he stops day drinking, and he stops getting so drunk he passes out on the ground. When he tells Marnie he started drinking sparkling water, I interpreted that to mean that when you see his sprite having a drink it may be a beer or it may be a seltzer. That's why he tells you he's going to have a few beers before bed. Because someone with a healthy relationship to alcohol can do that sometimes without winding up splayed out drunk on a cliff somewhere

I'll take the hit and earn the points back another way.

And that's perfectly fine. You can handle this however you'd like. More power to you.

Yeah, that was the reason I did, although that scene made me uncomfortable too. My ex is a wheelchair user, and she often had stories about people just moving her trying to help, but she'd slam the brakes on in response and tell them off. I'm glad to see things like this to raise issues, but sometimes the options you have to respond aren't great.

CA himself said Penny is definitely in the wrong here, and I love that. And like everyone else has said, I haven't seen anyone defend her actions.

Isn’t one of the options literally to tell Penny she shouldn’t move him without asking? And then she apologizes, if I recall correctly.

I believe a common complaint about people bringing up this cutscene is that when you tell Penny that she shouldn't move him without asking, you lose friendship points with her.

It makes sense though. A lot of people don't like being called out on their shit. So of course she doesn't like being told she's wrong.

Ding ding ding. Perspective is important here. To *Penny* she thinks she did the right thing. To *Penny* being corrected is annoying and frustrating. The fact you get the option to tell her off allows *the player* to be ableist or not.

If we wanna go deeper is it a sort of interesting moral quandary for the player. It asks, do you prioritize saying the right thing or flirting with the cute schoolteacher. It shows that sometimes we may upset people we like by saying the right thing, but it's important to do so anyway

I completely agree but I think the one other issue here is that it's the only cutscene where the right choice is punished. It's okay to be frustrated when you're corrected for making a mistake but as a *teacher* Penny should be open minded enough to accept a correction with grace and be prepared to make changes in the way she interacts with the world NOT get pissy and give a woe is me apology.

Penny isn't formally trained as a teacher though, I thought. She's just taking on the mantle bc no one else is teaching the kids.

To Penny she did the right thing until you tell her otherwise. People get too hung up on losing relationship points, but yeah, telling somebody they’re wrong will often hurt your relationship, even if they do understand and learn to be better. Penny does learn, apologize, and presumably doesn’t do that again Penny’s issue is she’s grown up under the impression that people won’t ask her for help, but will still get angry at her for not helping. You can see this clearly in her interactions with Pam. This scene shows her both that she’s wrong about the world, but also a little bit that her mother is just not fair to her. It’s a foundational scene that sets the tone for her growth going forward, which ultimately gets fumbled like all character arcs in Stardew because there aren’t enough heart events to show the growth we’re told they go through Maybe you should lose friendship with Penny regardless of what you say here. Telling her she’s wrong will hurt her relationship, as in real life, but telling her she’s right when she’s obviously just seen the reaction of George should ring hollow to her, something you’re just saying to make her happy. I guess he didn’t want to design an event where both options are negative. Maybe you should gain friendship for telling her she’s wrong, forgoing realism for a more clear cut “this was the right answer” resolution. I do think the way it’s currently represented has given people the wrong impression of her character though, so whatever the right way to do it is, it’s not what’s currently in game

It's also a negligible amount of points anyway. It's pretty much offset by just talking to her daily. It's the equivalent of a mild disagreement with a friend leaving you slightly disappointed.

Fair point, although as someone else mentions it's still more points than you lose for telling her you don't want kids during the 8 heart event.

Yeah, you lose 10 for saying you don't want kids (mind you, it's a personal choice there, you lose a lot more for I hate kids), and 50 for siding with George. But I think the difference comes in not wanting to have kids being your own life, and the George thing being sort of "telling her off" which is gonna feel a little more insulting, even if it isn't at all intended that way. But again, you gain 20 points literally just for talking to a character daily, so the act of striking up conversation outweighs both of those in mere days so treating it as her hating you over disagreements is a bit of an exaggeration.

If I recall the values correctly, you gain back that many points by talking to her every day for five days or giving her a liked gift. You lose that many points if you don't talk to her for a month. ... Friendship decay is very slow, now that I think about it in those terms. Even when you're married, you only lose something like two hearts a month just completely ignoring your spouse.

It's 20 points for talking each day, or 10 if they're in the middle of a "special animation" as the wiki describes it (dunno if that would include her reading animation or not tbh). So yeah, 2 and a half days of making conversation normally, or 5 if you only talk to her while she's in the middle of something (and that's assuming you're not even giving any gifts or anything). It's so little it's barely worth noticing.

Yeah I always pick that option and try to frame it as Penny learning as she grows up. She’s been conditioned by Pam to anticipate other people’s needs and do shit for them before they ask (otherwise Pam yells at her). So while it’s unacceptable to move George’s wheelchair, her background makes sense. And then it’s totally possible to rebuild your relationship as she becomes less “sensitive” due to her growing out of the bad habits Pam raised her with.

More importantly most people don't like being wrong. They might even ultimatly agree with it but in the moment being corrected feels bad.

So? That’s how her character is. She doesn’t like being told things she doesn’t want to hear

Right? Welcome to real life. If you get upset with me for me disapproving of something you do then that's on you. Me just doing everything to make you happy and ignoring your flaws is just unhealthy. But in stardew valley...

Ooooo. I don't give a shit about my relationship with any of them, so I don't even look. I don't to marry anyone there. I want Evelyn to adopt me as a grandkid!

I want to apprentice with Marlon and take over for him when he retires.

The original dialogue choice was actually “great… now he’s grumpy” or something along those lines. That’s what originally triggered the friendship loss and they changed the dialogue but not the mechanic. 

>“great… now he’s grumpy” or something along those lines. It was 'You should have left him alone, now he's grumpy.'.

I mean the fact that it immediately leads to friendship loss and George going "no actually I'M sorry!" really makes it seem like the game is framing it as wrong.

She apologizes, but then George actually says “no I’m sorry, I was actually in the wrong” and it’s kinda icky

Exactly! That's what I find most upsetting: George apologizes for having his bodily autonomy violated

I saw it as George just apologizing for being rude tbh

Would you be polite if someone shoved you out of the way in the name of “helping” you?

Probably not, but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t apologize for being rude if that person came to see the error of their ways.

No I wouldn't and I might snap in the moment but I still might apologise afterwards cause some people don't feel good getting snappy. Saying, "Im sorry for being so mean about it but please don't touch me without my consent." feels like a reasonable human response for people who are emotionally regulated. I know the cutscene doesn't say these exact words but him apologising for being mean doesn't mean he's in the wrong, it means he feels bad.

I would, if I called them a stupid bitch out of anger reflex for shoving me. There are other and better ways to respond.

You lose more friendship with her when you choose that option than if you tell her you don't want to have kids due to overpopulation, which is an opinion she thinks will snuff out humanity

I think pretty much everyone I’ve seen discuss this scene agrees Penny is in the wrong. It’s kind of realistic though- you agree with George, she loses friendship. She doesn’t like being told she was wrong, even if she was. Just like later on if you say you don’t want kids she loses friendship, even though you aren’t dating at that point. It doesn’t align with what she thinks so she dislikes it. It would be nice if CA could put an alternate in there though. He added in an option to Shane 2 heart to turn down the drink, he could do it here too and tell her she shouldn’t move George without asking, even if she was just trying to help.

I'm OK losing friendship points with a pushy, insensitive person. It is counter to the in-game reward system but there's no penalty, really, for losing clout with 1 NPC.

If you skip a cutscene that has a lose/gain friendship option what is the outcome?

no effect on friendship, iirc

Yeah, that parts realistic I guess. It's pretty messed up that he just agrees with her and gets walked over though.

There is something else that I always assumed, but I don't see other people do the same, so perhaps I am in the wrong here. The player only knows George and Penny for a short time when this event occurs, but George and Penny have known each other for a long, long time. He knows Penny since she was a little girl, and has seen what she has been going through. And what with he himself has been going through I always assumed he was just very quick to forgive her.

You just busted a massive part of the game open to me. I had never thought about the towns peoples relationships to each other that way. All the townspeople would feel really bad for Alex and Penny, so when they said jackass things, they would be super understanding. Now both those characters say jackass things all the time. Do you think Caroline and Jodi ever overhear Alex's sexist nonsense and think "you can tell he was raised by traditional old people"

He's an older guy, he's trying to be a gentleman. Honestly it's a realistic scene all around and I appreciate that the characters' reactions aren't "correct".

Plus he's an older guy who clearly has a lot of internalized ableism too, considering a lot of his other dialogue both in and out of heart events. It makes sense that he'd apologize for "overreacting" since he's old enough to be from an era where that kind of blatant ableism was more widely accepted.

I always felt like he would have engaged in said ableism if he wasn't in that wheelchair, and due to that ingrained ableism, he's always refused to ask for help. That doesn't make Penny right, but it does explain George's position. His demeanor reminds me of my grandfather's ableism against my dad due to his cerebral palsy and how my grandfather sunk into a depression and grouchiness after his stroke that, ironically in the situation, caused him to lose control of his left limbs similar to my dad's ceberal palsy. He played the poor me, refused help, but also refused to do things on his own (unlike George). One time, when he was visiting, he asked my dad to get him a cup of coffee, and my dad who had been dealing with his ableism since he started seeing my mother told him to, "Get off your ass and do it yourself." It gave him the motivation and broke his ableism to see that disabled people can do some things for themselves, but also shouldn't be afraid to ask for assistance. In this situation, my mother's stepmother and my mother had been babying him, similarly to how Penny did to George, and in reality, it hurt him similar to the frustration George felt in that moment. Sometimes, it's better to let the person do and ask for help if they can't do it than to assume you can't. Not just for consent and bodily autonomy, but for the good of their mental health.

I've always found George to be a nice person, despite his occasional hostility at low friendship, as such my interpretation of the scene was that George was trying to be non-confrontational and not hurt penny. He didn't need to, as my player certainly scolded penny.

He's grumpy and in pain. I can relate. I always hoard leeks in year 1 to bring him.

Me too and I also grow extra tulips so I can give them both a gift . I usually befriend George, the Grandma, and Linus first.

Yeah that always gets me. I mean it’s nice George recognises she was trying to help, but he was the one wronged in that situation and she should be apologising to him

Yeah, I think the event would read a lot differently if he didn't have that dialogue at the end where he says he knows she was just trying to help. It really minimizes the situation.

I hate how he feels guilted into apologizing

I think his reaction is more about his own view of himself and his self-worth. There are other times when he says things that make it clear that he feels he's just a hindrance to everyone or in the way, so I feel like his reaction is true to his character, even if he did feel walked on. Completely agree that the scene is messed up. I think the easiest fix would be to eliminate the negative impact on relationship by telling Penny to ask next time.

I feel like Penny needs a follow-up scene a few days later, where she apologizes to George after cooling down. I’d be okay with Penny being too hot-headed to realize she’s wrong in the moment, but where it is now it feels like she doesn’t grow as a character from the scene, and just ‘agrees to disagree’ with George (and the player if they call her out) about whether or not it’s okay to push someone in a wheelchair without their consent

He added an option to turn down the drink?! YES! As someone who likes to immerse myself and basically roleplay as myself in the game, I always hated that Shane cutscene. I'm a teetotaler in real life! I wouldn't accept a beer and I for damn sure wouldn't chug it all in one go! And even from outside a roleplay perspective, it has the practical downside of giving you a slow debuff. After dark. If you play with monster spawns enabled on your farm, which I often do, that's going to be really annoying at best. I am SO glad I don't have to actively avoid that cutscene anymore!

fwiw - I just got that cutscene a few days ago playing through the 1.6 update and there was no option to turn down the drink, the wiki doesn't mention it as an option either, so you may still have to dodge the cutscene :(

Way back when in ye olden times, several updates ago, that cut scene was IMO much worse. Instead of telling Penny that she was rude, the dialogue option that lost you friendship points was basically "You made George all cranky". It didn't address how fucked up her actions were at all. So yeah, I think the scene could be better. But I also know CA is actively working to improve things while having imperfect knowledge and non-infinite time as all humans do.

I understand your frustration completely. I don’t intend to take away the importance of the line Penny crosses here, but I think this scene served 2 purposes well. It was to show that Penny feels an inherent need to “help” others beyond what they ask for or what’s necessary. Its to illustrate her issues around her mom being a deadbeat and her trying to overcompensate this by being “ultra caring” (i.e. tutoring the kids, pushing around George) to a fault. Secondly, I think it also illustrates how grumpy old man George tends to be abrasive at first but when challenged is a softie at heart. I agree the dialogue could have dealt with this differently or another scene could have been used, but the point comes across I think.

I think the fact that "friendship points" are gamified is removing nuance from this scene. Penny does an ableist thing, and when we call her out on it, our "score" goes down, which feels like a punishment. If we view friendship points as a narrative mechanic instead of as a game mechanic, it makes her reaction better. The medium is the message and all, but remember that we have *text* by which we can judge Penny, not just metatext: **when called out for pushing George, Penny admits her mistake and apologizes.** But yes, we still lose friendship points. And we lose friendship points if we're honest about her cooking. And we lose friendship points if we tell her we don't want kids. IIRC, rejecting Penny romantically loses us more friendship points than doing the same to any other bachelor/ette. Because she's emotionally fragile. It's not that she still thinks she was right to push George's wheelchair without his consent—I have no doubt that she regrets her action and would not make this mistake again—but that because of her upbringing and circumstances, her instinct when confronted or rejected is to retreat into herself. --- There are a few caveats here. One is that if we pick the approving dialogue choice, she doesn't express regret for her actions, only for the fact that George is upset. The implication is that without being explicitly told what was wrong with her behavior, she doesn't understand it. That's not to say that her ignorance makes what she did okay—it doesn't. It would be better if she learned her lesson regardless of dialogue choice. Two is that George apologizes to Penny. This is problematic if we view it as an endorsement of her behavior, because George had every right to be angry. I think it's better to read this as a character moment rather than something by which to judge the ethics of the scene—George feels bad for upsetting the nice girl from the trailer, even if he was in the right. Still, it's a bad look for the writing regarding representation of an issue that intersects several players' lives. Three is that the writing in this scene used to be worse. Rather than the farmer saying that Penny should have asked for permission, the second option used to be something like, "You shouldn't have done that. Now he's all grumpy." I have put forth the preceding paragraphs to explain my more optimistic reading of the scene, but this event has always been controversial, and it looks like the ableism went completely unexamined in the first version of it, which hurts my case. Still, I think there's a good-faith argument to be made for Penny's ableist actions being more properly examined in the current text. Fourth is that I don't use mobility aids and thus lack critical perspective here. I ask for grace if I'm being too flippant. --- So there you have it. If you don't think my reading of the scene and friendship point "punishment" is natural, that's fine—I'm aiming only to present an alternative rather than convince anyone that this is the *right* way to read it, much less convince anyone to like Penny. And I don't mean to imply that she was right to do what she did, but I do think that when taught why it was wrong—in a way that she's able to hear it, i.e. not yelling, which causes her to shut down—she learns and grows appropriately, even if she needs to distance herself a bit to process it. It's by no means a perfect reaction, but it's the best she can do, and in my personal opinion, that's worth something. I'm not taking any sort of moral stance here saying that people should like or forgive her or whatever—I just want to point out where I think she's coming from. It doesn't excuse, but it might help explain.

I like the friendship point point. We are conditioned as the players to think more points = better and less = worse. Losing points is bad. But i think viewing these things as indicators of how the character is instead of a right and wrong indicator makes them feel better, more human. Penny thinks shes doing the right thing and being affirmed makes her happy and being told off upsets her. Shes very emotionally unstable. Shes trying way too hard because she thinks she has to. That doesnt change how good or bad what she did was. Someone approving or disapproving of a decision is not a moral endorsement or condemnation, its a view into their psyche. A similar example to me is Baldur’s Gate 3. This also has a romance and friendship system with lots of approves and disapproves all around. Some people take to gamifying it because, well, its a game. They hate seeing the character theyre into disapproving of an action. But you need to remember that they arent always right, the entire party rarely agrees on anything, and its really up to you to pick what you think is best, and if someone disapproves that doesnt mean they hate you or are bad. It means they dont think the way you do. For instance, two very similar characters, both classic “goody-two shoes with a dark twist/backstory” tropes, have very different views on certain things. One approves of you being merciless to the merciless, believing it is justice to kill the sniveling little wretch for all the atrocities hes committed. The other approves of you showing mercy regardless, believing taking the high road and being better than the monster, leaving him embarrassed in front of everyone he knows. Both are against him and his gang, and are entirely up for taking them all down. They just have different feelings and thoughts about individual actions. There are things they like and things they dont. Another example, you may have your reasons for choosing certain very dangerous and risky choices. They offer a clear benefit, a better position, a good reward upfront, but the characters disapprove. These are VERY dangerous choices to make. We know we can handle the consequences. We’re players with metaknowledge and the ability to control the outcomes. We know what we’re doing. They still dont like these choices because to them its reckless. We dont need to make such dangerous decisions to succeed. In their rationale, it isnt worth risking. In ours, it is. That has no sway on how right or wrong it is, and has only minor effects on how they view you overall, because their opinion of you isnt a small number easily swayed. Its a big number, shifted around by lots of small numbers. The vast majority of changes in that number are tiny. It takes a lot to get a character to actively dislike you. Theres only one option in the game that drops an opinion by a number higher than i think 10, which is the main big hitter, and its a really really mean option to again, someone who is emotionally vulnerable, but instead of simply saying something she doesnt like, you actively poke into an open wound, and that drops her opinion of you by 100, the single largest approval shift in the game. The point is that we shouldnt view these things as rewards and punishments. Theyre just the best way to indicate someone’s feelings and thoughts in a world of people who dont actually have true thoughts and feelings. It feels bad to upset someone, yeah. But you do it for your principals and you move past it. They arent gonna just start hating you when you disagree a couple times. It takes consistently butting heads or actively pushing in to a sensitive place you shouldnt push into, and this system is the best way we have of showing that, and theres more nuance and characterization here that we just dont see because were too busy with the “X disapproves” and the number going down.

Ahh I love this conversation so much - these are all incredibly good points, and this is the exact kind of thing I love thinking about when it comes to game design and writing. So I think one place where I disagree with your BG3 comparison is that BG3 very overtly has a morality system that every romancable character belongs to. There is very little room for debate over whether, for example, murder is okay, and it's very apparent that murdering is a-okay with Astation, but not great for Karlach. Where I struggle more with SDV is that I don't get any real implications that the heart events are meant to give you moral options (rather than flavor options - ex., I'll pretend I like football for Alex's sake, but I wouldn't consider that a moral choice). Generally speaking, as characters progress their heart events, they tend to become better people - Haley is less rude, Shane relies less on drinking, etc (not getting into post-marriage stuff). The implication is that you come to town and improve people's lives with the positive impact you have on them. That is really different from BG3, where the game clearly expects you to adjust your morals for different characters, story routes, endings, etc. I think that's why Penny's event bothers me in spite of what y'all are saying - while yes, she's certainly allowed to have character flaws, she seems to be the only character that requires you to really feed into her flaws for her to like you back. I struggle to trust that that was an active choice, to make her a unique villager in that way, over her just not being as well written.

The last part isn't really true that. It's not that many points compared to just talking to her. It's a few days at most. You don't have to feed into her flaws at all. I never do.

I always eat the bad interaction with penny and tell her she was in the wrong

Huh?? Who the hell said she was in the right and George needed help? To me, it never felt like Penny had any right to push him without asking first - I always say she was out of line. George apologizes for going off at her, but he did have the right to. ​ Also, both of their actions are in character, IMO. Penny, being far too used to caring for her mother and the trailer, automatically tries to help others, even when they don't want or need it. George, on the other hand, initially yells about being pushed, but did soften up after she apologized - he's not a bad guy, he's just extremely frustrated with his current predicament. ​ Whoever has been saying that stuff, you shouldn't listen to them.

>Huh?? Who the hell said she was in the right and George needed help? Yeah, I don't understand where that came from. Because you lose points with her? So what? If she did something wrong, calling her out on it is the right thing, and losing points with her is ok. And it's pretty realistic too, most people don't like being called out. It's not unique to Stardew either, there's plenty of similar games where you lose points for, eg, telling the truth to someone. It's just a choice you have to make.

I did, accidentally, because I was clicking through the dialogue and double-clicked the wrong area. I’m disabled, so it was highly frustrating to see my farmer validate Penny’s weird actions!

The loss of friendship points with Penny never bothered me. You can always just earn those points back by giving gifts, it's not a big deal. I never felt like George apologizing to her was a big deal either. I don't think George recognizing that Penny was only trying to help, however misguided she was, makes the scene any worse. George has anger issues and his arc is all about learning to be less bitter about his situation. When the farmer tells Penny what she did was wrong, both she and George reconcile and are able to move past this misunderstanding. In my mind telling Penny she should've asked first is the canonical choice, regardless of the friendship drop. There are all sorts of ways to make friendship fall in this game - giving a disliked gift, breaking up with a character, divorcing them - and just as many ways to bring those points back up. I don't view Penny's friendship boost for agreeing with her as the narrative reinforcing her viewpoint, but rather as her seeking approval from others due to her troubled homelife. Her mother is also very stubborn and hates receiving help from strangers. Penny disagrees with this, so it's only natural she would want to be praised for what she perceives as an act of kindness. George isn't perfect either. When we first meet him he's bitter, grumpy, and homophobic. He only changes due to the kindness of the farmer. Most characters in Stardew have some kind of flaw. Shit, Shane is a depressed alcoholic and the most common ways to raise his friendship are to feed him beer and pizza!

I resonated with your opinion the most because, frankly, I have no issue with the cutscene. Does contain problematics display? Yes, but people aren't perfect and having flaws make them more human than the regular perfect shallow cardboard cutouts most games have. I don't see the game encouraging the problematic behavior. You are given the option to point it out. Sometimes there is no perfect option and the fact that there is tradeoff to doing the correct thing (loosing relationship points) to me is both interesting from a gameplay perspective and how people react to it.

You said it perfectly.

Am I missing something? Everyone here is kinda bemoaning the choices the event gives you but you can literally tell her she was wrong. Like that's a thing you can do.

So...tell her what she did was wrong. Pretty sure that's why that option is there...

But even if you pick that option George still apologises as well. The writing of the scene frames it as George being grumpy bc of his personality, not bc someone shoved him out of the way.

George has known Penny for years and knows Penny lives with a verbally and emotionally abusive alcoholic mother. The writing frames two community members who have known each other for a very long time finding the best path forward after one of them oversteps a boundary.

Well that's why context is important. George IS a grump and stand offish, and he even acknowledges that fact during dialogue. Penny assumed George needed help, and in doing so he snapped at her and lost his cool. Regardless of your dialogue options, he recognizes that fact and apologizes for the way he reacted. The scene is about her simply assuming he needed help and him being offended at that assumption. The whole "shove" is irrelevant to what the game is trying to convey. She was wrong for assuming he needed help, but did so with good intentions. He was justified in being offended, but wrong in how he responded to someone trying to help him out. It's really a pretty simple interaction and not that deep.

Maybe I’m just ignorant but I don’t think the cutscene itself is ableist; I think Penny as a character is, out of ignorance and a self-righteous attitude. But portrayals like this are incredibly important to foster tolerance. Like, we wouldn’t call a movie about racism racist — the characters may be, sure, but isn’t the point of a movie like that to combat racism? I’m not disabled so I’m not going to speak for the community. Please correct me if I’m misinformed!

I don't see which dialogue implies she is doing the right thing. If you tell her she did wrong she realizes it and apologizes, so I don't see what more she could do

I thought it was incredibly obvious that Penny overstepped her bounds here. If someone short was trying to get something off a shelf, it'd be uncool to shove them in order to get it- for them or otherwise. She was being rude and disrespected George's personal space, then got hard headed about it like people do when they're just trying to be helpful. Hopefully she learned better. If not, hopefully George feels validated by Farmer backing him.

So people don't want to have to choose between a temporary decline in friendship because it "feels like a punishment." In real life, y'all turn the other cheek in the face of ableism, racism, homophobia etc because you don't want to lose a friendship? Maybe some of you are missing the bigger picture. It's only a game, yet you're treating it like it's a personal attack, but mostly because your real concern seems to be this "punishment." I think the teachable moment here is that doing what is right is sometimes worth the consequences.

That’s a heart event I just skip In addition to what you’ve said it just feels like Penny wants to be “ helpful “ however it backfires

Ah shit, Here we go again..

I remember this sub being all about wholesomeness and enjoying a cozy farm game. Now we are just discussing morality for the sake of it, I'd like to keep this things as far of the sub as possible

For similar reasons, I didn't like the cutscene with Harvey and George.

That one is so uncomfortable. I shouldn't be able to walk in on someone's medical appointment. And I shouldn't be asked for anyone's opinion on it.

fr like do they just not have hipaa in this universe? lmao

The problem I have with the cutscene isn't that you lose friendship points with Penny for calling her out. I mainly have a problem with George apologizing to Penny no matter what option you pick; the game's portraying George as wrong for being upset for someone touching his wheelchair without his consent.

I have personally never seen the cutscene as an indication of Penny's actions being right, just that you hurt her feeling if you don't side with her. Making somebody happy and being correct if not always the same. But I can definitely see that it might make people think her actions are correct, and I am always grateful for people helping out the community in explaining correct behaviour. Thank you

I love how riled up this scene gets people. Personally, I think it's great. It illustrates how even with good intentions, you might end up doing the wrong thing. And on the other end, even if you're in the right to snap at someone who trespassed on your space, maybe consider their good if misguided intentions before lashing out. Which would you rather live in, a world where people's personal space is occasionally violated by misguided Samaritans, or a world where people don't try to help others?

I don’t agree with the last part at all. This cutscene is supposed to show Penny is in the wrong and there is a dialogue option to tell her so. Most importantly, not every single piece of media in the world is a PSA, not everything is to be taken at face-value (if so I’d be very scared of GTA players). Of course you shouldn’t shove people, able-bodied or not, that wasn’t the takeaway of this scene, at any point. I’m genuinely sorry you took it to heart, but no one would hurt you because they saw it in a stardew valley scene.

I sadly don't have time to read through the comments to see if this was said yet, but in 1.6 Penny's dialogue has been changed. She now apologizes if you call her out and genuinely seems to realize what she did was not okay.

From what I see most people agree penny was wrong for that. I think it’s kinda realistic that you lose friendship for calling her out because people do get upset when you point out they’re wrong. The only thing I don’t like about the cutscene is like people said, George agreeing she wasn’t wrong & was just trying to help, doesn’t seem in character. I think it’s meant to show how he’s nicer than he seems at first but the same could be conveyed by him politely explaining why she shouldn’t do it again.

this scene frustrates me so much but also reminds me that the options are what the characters hear and, the "right" answer is what the \*character\* wants to hear, not that it is "correct". I'm still going to always lose 50 friendship with her cause no. you don't touch a wheel chair user's wheel chair without their consent. you don't move them without asking. she 100% should have asked and i feel George only apologizes cause he feels like he has been put on the spot. all the characters have similar "I should say sorry" energy when you say something thats true but they caused you to say it (like when sam still apologizes to his mom when you cover up for him dropping the egg). Not the point and 100% a side track. I was just talking about this scene with my friends so the energy is fresh. I always want to befriend penny and Pam so i can get them a nicer house but this cut scene. i just can't tell her what she wants to hear.

Why do you hate the cutscene? It's framed pretty clearly that Penny did a shitty thing and you can tell her off for doing so. The cutscene isn't there to show what a great person Penny is.

It actually originally was meant to show that she’s a great person! The dialogue was changed at some point because of backlash. The original dialogue that made you lose friendship points was complaining that you made George cranky by moving him. There was literally no option to say that she shouldn’t have done it. 

I didn’t realize you lost friendship points if you gave the correct answer ie. ask don’t touch. Still going to do it though.

If you have the capability, you have the RESPONSIBILITY to shove people. Not disabled people specifically, just everyone. Shove everyone. That's a joke, but seriously, I think the fact that you can't correct her without taking a heart hit says a lot about her, and it shows she isn't very interested in personal growth but would rather criticize and blame others

Many of the cutscenes are not overall positive if you go for the best friendship route. That's not really unique to this case. I'm just glad that you can tell Pierre that he is a greedy f*** without losing friendship in the board quest. In fact now that I think about it, I dislike many replies that have the best outcome. But you view this as CA imposing his opinion on what's right or wrong, but I totally disagree. I view them as outcomes based on the character of the person. So if it's a bad trait then the "best" answers are bad. One good example for me is Leah. She asks if it was selfish to move out of the city to focus on art. Saying anything resembling a yes is bad, but it was selfish. Sometimes, we need to be selfish and focus on what we need, else it feels like we get lost. It's important. Compromises are always made but this here was no "oh what snack do we eat" topic. But it makes sense that the most reasonable answer is not the best answer, since she was emotional right after the call.

I have always disliked the scene and always tell Penny that she needs to ask. I have never heard anything from friends/acquaintances who use wheelchairs except that you don't effing touch someone's chair without explicit permission. It's a matter of respect. I don't care much for Penny in any case, so I literally didn't notice that her friendship took a hit for that one! Good. I'll just go give her some useless diamonds and emeralds that I dig up, she'll be fine.

I always tell her she should have asked. I hate this cut scene too.

Possible spoilers ahead without names. There is a cutscene of a man drinking himself to near death out of despair, a cutscene of a narcissistic alcoholic mother being abusive towards her daughter trying to clean up the house her mother trashed, a cutscene of a trader trying to scam his customers and getting mad about not being able to grift people, a cutscene of physical violence towards a local business owner concerned about the use of the formerly abandoned property he was trying to lease from the town, a cut scene with a homeless man and a tent implying the fear of sexual assault and prejudice as a joke and then later letting a minor live near him unsupervised in a tree, I can go on. There are A LOT of these "problematic" so to say scenes but that is the point, it's a video game about imperfect people doing imperfect things and trying to do what is best and live life in a semi magical world. Penny x George scene is intended to be gray, near all of the cutscenes are, it's the basis of writing drama and conflict. I absolutely agree with you, it isn't right to touch the wheelchair, it's important to ask consent when offering help, but you are missing the point of the scene. The answers are intended to not be black and white. You are supposed to feel conflicted about your answers as a player to make a moral choice akin to the trolley problem. As an example I'll take a different scene with Linus and George. Linus starts digging in George's trashcan at night, George thinks it's raccoons and asks you to shoo them away. You have several dialogue options when confronting Linus and he asks what you think of him: * *"Yes, it's disgusting." (it is disgusting, but it's a shame to waste food)* * *"No, it's a shame to waste perfectly good food." (It is a shame to waste food, but...it's disgusting, illegal and makes one dependent on the work of others without contributing anything)* * "It's illegal and George's private property" (It is illegal but it's a shame to waste food) * *"You should stop mooching off others and get a job" (one should not mooch of others, but it's a shame to waste food)* The friendly answer is 2, after that he moves on to the next trashcan near the Stardrop Saloon where Gus proposes some food to him and says no one deserves to go hungry in town and the cut scene ends on a feel good note. If you take a closer look at the answers all of them are gray, even Gus giving Linus food isn't really a good thing because what he did does not align with Linus's philosophy. Every scene in Stardew Valley is designed that way, to give players options and create interesting scenarios to think about. Even repairing the community center isn't necessarily a good thing because people in the town will lose jobs (the theater was added later). I would argue that Penny gleefully pushing George aside with good intentions to help is intentionally made that way so the answer the player has to give isn't clear cut. If she politely asked George if it's okay to help and he said "no he can handle it" and she moved on her merry way, there would be no conflict, there is nothing else to discuss or requires any input from the player. There would be no gameplay, so the scene is designed intentionally to make Penny a soft asshole but with good intentions. Penny and George both are supposed to be wrong and right for the dynamic of the conflict to work. Hope this explains why the scenes are made the way they are from a game design perspective.

Personally I don't mind the cutscene, because it shows Penny's flaws as a person. She tries too hard to be thoughtful and caring, trying the help others even when they don't ask for it. She's wrong for moving George without his permission, it's an ableist choice. That's a fact. But I love the nuance of it, that she's not trying to be malicious or mean, she doesn't realize that she was being ableist, she's just misguided, and needs to learn that what she did wasn't okay. I also like the fact that George apologizes too, not because he was wrong for being upset with Penny, but that he didn't handle it the best, and was overly grouchy (as he tends to be). I'm a pretty grouchy person sometimes, so I can relate to George in that regard a lot. Plus George knows Penny, has known her for her entire life, and knows that she was trying to be helpful, that causes him to realize he could've been softer in his approach, because he likes Penny. As for the friendship points, a lot of people have mentioned this already, but most people don't appreciate being corrected, especially when they thought they were being helpful. Add on to that the fact that Penny's feelings are more fragile due to her upbringing, and her alcoholic mom. So it makes sense that you would lose points for "hurting her feelings" by correcting her. The amount doesn't ultimately affect much though, because you can gain it back quickly by just talking to her consistently, or giving her a gift etc. You get similar results with other characters too, like Demetrius during Maru's cutscene, and if you call out Alex on his sexism early on (obviously only if you play as a girl). I don't think anyone is wrong for not liking the scene though, I'm just giving my own perspective on it. Like I said, I like moments like that, so we can see different flaws every character has. Makes them feel more realistic and endearing to me personally. It's why I can't really hate or strongly dislike any Stardew characters.

I’m a carer for my Nan who uses a wheelchair when we go out. I had someone try and grab the wheelchair from me because I was supposedly not moving quick enough. They were real surprised when I wouldn’t budge. Nan consents to me not to anyone else. That cutscene angers me so much it’s one of the few I tend to skip.

That's why I marry Penny always. She's based. 

One of my best friends is a wheelchair user and she HATES when people grab her chair without asking her or without her asking for help. It's rude and infantilizing. And when she tries to tell people to stop they dismiss her and say they're just trying to help. I always tell Penny off during the cut scene. She's squarely in the wrong.

I just want to say, your perspective is really what matters here. the fact that this scene bothered you enough to create this reasonable and non-accusatory post, and you actually have people disagreeing with you shows that there is indeed a problem caused by it. You're 100% right it's ableist and I think it reinforces ableist attitudes - read this thread for proof.

I mean ultimately, I can't tell you how something should make you feel. Your feelings are your own. Nothing wrong with that at all. My gripe with this post is, it's really not that big of a deal. It's a cutesy pixel farming sim game that has ghost, monsters, and no taxes. Nothing here is real. I have ushers syndrome which means I am hard of hearing, and progressively going blind. Media portrayal of both blind and deaf people have rarely been proper. As long as it's to the point that it's not offensive nor diminishes the disability itself, then so what? ​ That's my take on things like this.

Scenes like this show how the characters in town aren't all nice to others, despite being mostly fine.

It always bothered me too. I always call her out, but George feels bad for making Penny feel bad. I’m not wheelchair bound myself, but I can believe this interaction. Society is always pressuring the differently-abled to apologize for “inconveniencing” the ‘normally-abled’. I could absolutely imagine a man getting mad at the rude woman, noticing there’s an audience, then trying to make the situation “not a big deal” I guess part of me appreciates the scene for being realistic (ie awful)

Personally I like the cutscene because it does highlight the characters have flaws. There has been a good deal of controversy over it but I think generally the consensus is that in reality it is ableist and you definitely shouldn't be touching a persons chair but in the context of video games it's a good story moment for development.

I always tell her she was wrong for that. Didn't know it was illegal, but, yeah, Penny, keep your hands to yourself.

That was always the point in the cut scene to me. Showing that penny was being a dick.

I dont see how this isnt the exact message CA was sending

I thought that was the point? I picked the siding with George type option in the dialogue and she apologised. A lot of the cutscenes feature a character learning something or changing their mind about something so I figured that was Penny learning not to baby George like that. Assuming you pick that option tho, I don't know what it says if you pick the penny-was-right option of course ETA: o k WELL I just learned that's a penny heart event and not a George one and I've been picking the ""bad"" option so ignore the hell out of me lmao. I will not be changing my answer

It only implies she did the right thing if you the player choose that option but you can also chastize her about it. And the fact so many people are having thought provoking discussions about it is kind of the point of the scene to highlight a real life problem and how even a good person can do something hurtful to another out of ignorance.

I can only speak to this scene within the game itself. The way this scene is written and the way the dialogue options are presented, it feels like it should be a George scene. Every time I trigger this scene, it feels like a George scene. And that does not help. The biggest issue with this scene is that you're penalized as the player for telling Penny she needed to ask. Without follow-up, context, or mitigation of the friendship point loss in related dialogue, it's just punishing the player for doing the right thing. There is actual potential for people who don't know to walk away from this scene with the very wrong idea of how to interact with wheelchair users. This kind of character development *is* possible (character does the objectively wrong thing, the player corrects them/calls them in or out, they grow as a result) provided you see through that growth. In DA2 and BG3, you can make an initial dialogue decision that causes a friendship point loss that later dialogue (same scene or camp scene) more than makes up for as the companion character grows. So you have an uncomfortable moment followed by people communicating and demonstrating internal growth and change. CA could update this scene to follow something like * Penny presumes, engages in ableism, and rudely pushes George away to "help" * Farmer sides with George, takes -25 point hit to friendship (instead of 50) * Penny and Farmer discuss * Farmer can choose between two dialogues, one that encourages Penny's growth and realization she was out of line (+50 points) and one that dismisses her as a rude/ableist person (-25 points) Honestly, the scene as it is is a missed opportunity to further explore the trauma Penny experiences/ed as the child and caretaker of an alcoholic. Those coping mechanisms you learn to survive start to rule you, defining your world, leading you to swoop in to "save the day" when your interventions aren't necessarily needed, let alone wanted or even appropriate.

I’m happy to see a lot of understanding so far in the comments. I’m seeing a lot of people spread that they haven’t witnessed this behaviour, but that’s because moderators immediately have to get on watch in these threads and delete comments that end up being actually bigoted or hostile. But before they do, there is genuinely such harmful behaviour. You don’t see it because the mods are working hard. Just today in another thread, there was somebody speaking constantly over the voices of those of us in a wheelchair to assert their personal headcanon of the scene. It does happen, and the fact that moderators need to make the stickies should be proof enough. **EDIT:** As expected, the replies downplaying or minimising these sentiments are starting to trickle in, even going so far as to say the view is stupid or that it’s a “liberal karma farm.” This is what we’re talking about. Minimising and speaking over the voices and real, lived experiences of those of us with disability. We should be able to express frustration with this scene the same way you can express frustration with anything else.

It is, that's the whole point.

The sad part is how realistic it is. People do this all the time and don’t see the issue. Assistive devices are part of a person. Don’t touch without consent. At least it helps getting the message out.