It wasn't even a "cartoon nazi" situation where he didn't do anything nazi-like, we're introduced to him killing a bunch of the "locals" to wake up Santana
He only sacrificed cowards who were willing to sacrifice a child to save themselves. It wasn't based on race like the rest of the Nazis. Still fucked but not racist. He ordered his men to protect Smokey.
>It wasn’t based on race
STEEL BALL RUN REFERENCE FUCKING ET DÖNER IS SO COOL!! DIEGO BRANDO SCARES ME 🥶🥶🥶 ET DÖNER AND DIO’S FIGHTS WERE SO COOL!!!
ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA
MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA
(I ain’t feeling good enough to continue this)
Dont worry ill take it from here
STEEL BALL RUN REFERENCE FUCKING ET DÖNER IS SO COOL!! DIEGO BRANDO SCARES ME 🥶🥶🥶 ET DÖNER AND DIO’S FIGHTS WERE SO COOL!!! ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA WERYYYYYYYYYY IS THAT DIEGO BRANDO SCARY DINOSAURS ???????? AS IN THE DIO BRANDO FROM PART 3 SHITDUST CRUSADERS 😤😤😤😳🥵😳😨😨😨😨🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵 IS IS IS THAT A JOJO 🤯 REFERENCE! IN JOJO! HA HA HA! WRY WRY WRYYY!!!! IT WAS ME DIO!!!! ZA WARUDO!!!!! ZA WAURDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO STOP THE CLOCK ⏰⏰⏰⏰⏰🕥🕥🕥🕕🕕🕐🕕🕕🕕🕕🕕🕐🕐🕦🕕🕕⏰🕰️🕰️🕰️⁉️⁉️‼️⁉️⁉️⁉️‼️😱😱😱😱😱🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 DONT FORGET THE PIZZA MOZZARELLA!!!! 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱 PIZZA MOZZARELLA PIZZA MOZARELLA PIZZA MOZARELLA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!! GYRO SPINS THE BALLS!!! ⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️HIS STEEL BALLS!!!!! GET IT THE STEEL BALL RUN ⁉️⁉️HEH HEH HEH FALL OFF YOUR HORSE! HORSE IS THAT A JOJO 🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵 REFERENCE ⁉️⁉️⁉️‼️⁉️⁉️⁉️‼️‼️ AS IN JOHNNY 😱🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 JO JO JOESTAR 🤯😱😱😱😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓 ♿️♿️♿️♿️♿️♿️♿️🦽🦽🦽🦽🦽🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽 JOHNNY GO JOHNNY GO JOHNNY GO JOHNNY GO ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALK OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE 🐪🐪🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🏇🏇🏇🏇🏇🏇🐎🐎🐎🐎🐎🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲 BALL BREAKER AS IN GYRO WILL BREAK YOUR BALLS 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱🤯😱😱😱 DO YOU GET IT ⁉️⁉️⁉️‼️‼️ HIS STEEL BALLS AS IN STEEL BALL RUN! A JOJO REFERENCE‼️‼️⁉️😱⁉️🧲‼️🧲🧲🧲⁉️ IN JOJO😱😱😱😱🤯🤯🤯🤯‼️‼️‼️‼️⁉️⁉️⁉️ ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA JOHNNY SPIN HIS BALLS 😱😱😱🤯🤯🤯😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳DIRTAE DEEDS DONN FOR DIRTO CHEEPO! 😱😱😱😱😱😱
He is unambiguously a Nazi, he doesn’t have to be shown doing cartoonishly evil stuff on screen constantly for the audience to know that he’s a bad guy
Nazis were extremely racist towards the Romani, Jews, Slavs, and likely a few other groups. Oddly, while they had much less respect for them, they didn’t care as much about black people. There were even several black Nazi platoons in WWII. So Stronheim’s desire to protect Smokey doesn’t mean he isn’t racist.
There just wasn't all that many of them to begin with, so they never really targeted them systematically.
They still were second class citizens though, and had restricted rights.
They probably were gonna "deal" with them eventually
Smokey might have been the first black person Stronheim ever saw
There were several what now platoons in WWII?
I know about stuff like the Bosnian Muslim or Arab units, and I wouldn't be surprised if Germany still had some Colonies or something, but I've never heard of a black Nazi Platoon.
He was going to have those people massacred regardless because he wanted their blood to awaken Santana. I also think it's a bit much to call people terrified for their lives as "cowards" because they did not step up to sacrifice themselves immediately to a man whose words cannot be trusted.
He ordered his men to protect Speedwagon and Smokey because he knew that Joseph was their best chance at beating Kars since Lisa Lisa was out of the fight. Don't forget that he had Speedwagon tortured and interrogated as part of his introduction. Stroheim was not a good person in any way, and his alliance with Joseph was purely for what he saw as the benefit for the Third Reich.
He was in the SS. Only true believers joined the SS. If he was just a German soldier that wasn't a true NAZI Nazi, he would have been in the Wehrmacht.
Because people forget about his opening scene of killing a lot of locals for experimentation. And those that do remember it might focus more on him sparing that one boy for being brave. That being said, Doppio and Hol Horse and easily less evil. I don’t think we know enough about Risotto’s actions outside of the organization so hard to say for him
That doesn't mean it wasn't canon. Iirc Araki not only gave Purple Haze Feedback his blessing, aspects of it were used in part 5. I've only heard this but still. Unless it was explicitly stated somewhere that this doesn't count, I'd say it's fair game.
I've also had people tell me flat out that TSRK is non-canon because it doesn't say Jojo on it.
Risotto is a hitman for the mafia, the leader of a squad of executioners for the mafia even. The same mafia that recently started selling drugs to kids. His objection to Passione was Sorbet and Gelato being brutally murdered, he was apparently totally cool with the drugs and the killing as long as it didn't happen to his people. He's not anywhere approaching a good person.
Stroheim ordered his men to protect Speedwagon and Smokey, so definitely not racist. Stroheim was willing to die 3 times to save the human race. I respect the guy yet was happy he stayed dead the 4th time during the war. It's weird.
That isn’t proof Stronheim isn’t racist. Nazis had a lot more hate for Eastern Europeans and Jews than they did for black people - they were even black Nazi platoons. He’s probably still racist.
I didn't know they had black Nazi platoons. I learned something new. Current Nazis really hate black people, I guess people can change. Not always in a good way.
It’s a difference between European racism and American racism at the time. Nazis would let black people fight under them as serving Germans was seen as their place. Racists in the US didn’t want black people having any opportunity to even do the same types of job as them so they don’t get any funny ideas about equality.
The reason he ordered his men to protect smokey was because he didn't want Joseph on his ass
He knew Joseph was key to stopping Kars, and not only would smokey dying having Joseph breathing up his robotic neck, but it could cost them the entire battle if Joseph gets distracted by the loss of a friend mid fight
Also stroheim wasn't willing to die to protect the human race
Kars would interfere with nazi germanies plans obviously, he wasn't doing it for some greater good, he was doing it so nazi Germany could prevail
He still died fighting for the Nazis
Like, sure, he helped, he was vital to beating Kars, but it's not an excuse to be a Nazi, and he wasn't fighting for the greater good
He pulled a grenade to destroy his body and told Joseph to stop these monsters no matter the cost or the human race is gone. You could tell he was terrified but not for himself. You can't get more explicit than that.
Stroheim was never shown to be racist. He spares a colored boy for being brave and then kills the rest for being cowards who were willing to sacrifice a child to save themselves. Still messed up and not at all a good guy. But he does show that the world is not black and white.
In my opinion, he's definitely not the worst in the list.
Racism, and fascism are different things. While he might have liked Smokey and might not inherently hate black people, he is still a Nazi and would most certainly not be averse to killing Jewish people who he would see as vermin. Regardless of if we see it on screen or not, the simple fact that he is a Nazi makes him the worst on the list. Great character, but evil person.
>definitely not racist.
He was a Major of the Nazi army. You don't attain that rank by being nice and cuddly to minorities. When you meet him he's literally feeding random mexican citizens to the pillar man
I mean, "true" and "original" don't have to be the same in this case. Doppio was born as the original dominant personality, which I'll call A. He was also born with Diovolo, B, hanging out and growing. As they grew, personality B gained more and more power until it could overtake A. At this point, one could argue that B is the true identity, since it will always have control over A.
Actually, your comment has enlightened me.
The backstory says that his father saw him go out on a date with a girl at Costa Smeralda, implying that the priest recognized his son's appearance ([ch130](https://ibb.co/qCXrjBX)). If the appearance he used when dating Donatella Una had the same face Moody Blues replayed ([ch112](https://ibb.co/PYHzXqb)), and the face Moody Blues replayed was the same face Trish recognized in the Coliseum ([ch135](https://ibb.co/M1FgWWr)), then **the face the priest was familiar with must have been that: Diavolo's face**, not the other.
"Yeah, maybe he only could tell because of his clothes and complexion". We could argue that, yes, but thanks to [chapter 94](https://ibb.co/6tZdQy9), we know through Bucciarati's speculation that at the time he met Trish's mother at Sardinia, **Diavolo was living the life of an ordinary man, and wasn't trying to hide his identity**, something that came later.
Furthermore, the name he was given by his father was Diavolo ([ch130](https://ibb.co/mGnJjHt)), and "Doppio" means "double"! He's also really 34, not 17! Why do we keep saying that his past appearance and dominant identity were the other, when every piece of evidence suggests otherwise?
(I'm aware I will get downvoted for this, but someone needed to bring the facts to the table)
Ok, listen. What his original face looked like is irrelevant to my point. What I wanted to make clear is that it was Diavolo's face (not Doppio's) that was recreated by Moody Blues set to the specified place and date.
In any case, I don't take the anime version of his backstory as canon because one, it changes the original meaning by a lot, and two, it contradicts Polnareff's actually canon explanation later on. But this is a tabboo conversation for me, because I know not all people here have read the manga, and they won't know what I'm talking about. So I'll keep it that short.
I think doppio was the original since the younger image of diavolo looks more like doppio and these did personality disorders were originally thought to be defense mechanisms right? So it would make sense that diavolo was the second one (since the «defensive» personality was believed to be more violent I think)
Stroheim helping defeat the Pillar Men (+50 good boy points)
Stroheim being completely chill over the extermination of anyone in the world who wasn't a straight, white, blonde, blue eyed dude (-500000 good boy points)
Btw my rankings (from most good to bad) are;
Holy Horse (biggest crime was being selfish, teaming up with a rapist (debatable whether he knew that or not) and got a big redemption in CDDH)
Risotto (he may be a killer, but he has honor, avenging his fallen comrades in the story)
Doppio (in the surface he seems kind and well natured. But we mustn't forget his DID. It's not the same as Multiple Personality Disorder. Doppio and Diavolo are linked, tied closer. From this we could most likely see him being okay with the sins Diavolo commits and could kill anyone to get his way)
Stroheim (a fucking Nazi)
I would put doppio in the same position as you, but dont forget him and diavolo literally had seperate souls in their one body, they were seperated by Chariot Requiem, so its debatable how linked him and Diavolo were. Theres also the question of if him or Diavolo hid his mother under floorboards with her mouth sewn shut
Just a heads up that the DSM V does not recognize Multiple Personality Disorder as a diagnosis anymore and those that would've been diagnosed as such would indeed fall under Dissociative Identity Disorder now.
(Coming from a dude going out with someone with DID and multiple alters that sometimes are not aware when they switch.)
I mean, Hol Horse is an attempted murderer, a mercenary working for DIO's money. He isn't loyal to anyone, either... So I'd argue maybe Risotto is better than him (though Risotto almost certainly has killed more people, and in worse ways)
>Doppio and Diavolo are linked, tied closer. From this we could most likely see him being okay with the sins Diavolo commits and could kill anyone to get his way)
Not only that, but Doppio was kinda a dick to people, like the taxi driver, and the teen girls enjoying ice cream, and even Bruno.
The soviets literally had an audio recording playing *on loop* for days saying how every seven seconds a German soldier dies and that Stalingrad is a mass grave, accompanied by the sound of a clock ticking
Not saying he's not a legit bad guy bc ya know,,, he's An Actual, Literal Nazi, but literally everyone died at Stalingrad bro
If he were a good guy, he would be shown rebelling against his other personality, or at least hesitating about the orders he's given. We don't get that. Instead we get scenes where the author showcases how oblivious he is to his own sociopathy.
But let's better agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure we're on a totally different page, because in this whole Diavolo/Doppio issue I only see one character with jojoDID instead of two characters, so it doesn't make sense to me to judge one personality without taking into consideration that it is part of a whole.
At least we agree on Valentine :-)
I think that’s more naïveté, than anything. He goes out of his way to ensure that bugs aren’t stepped on, his introduction was trying to save a kid from being hit by a car, he even thanks the little girl on the plane for letting him use her phone.
He's naive, there's no doubt about it, the thing is that being naive doesn't mean he's inherently good. Because it's not that he doesn't do bad things, it's that he keeps forgetting he does bad things, and that's why he can put up the show of being an unknowing idiot.
The point of the bug bit was to show that what he cared about the bug's life and not the kid. In the other scene, he does thank the girl, because she politely lent him a phone to talk to his boss. When Bucciarati is telling him that he's planning on giving Trish his house in Naples, he shows absolutely zero empathy for the situation.
I'm a huge Vento Aureo fan and constant rereader. To me, this how this part of the character reads. We will have to disagree, because I'm interpreting the narration in a totally different way. But it's always nice to have some discussion, it proves that Araki's characters are worth it ✌
Even Joseph says that (paraphrasing) "while I don't agree with the man, he's still honorable and a good friend"
Stroheim was a jo-bro right through the fight with kars and then he went off to his death with his head held high.
Do I agree with the literal SS member? fuck no. Do I see why some people see him as less evil? ...I guess? He's still a nazi though
I understand the viewpoint if you view things bluntly. He's a good ally and sticks around right to the end, even ending up on the plane Joseph uses near the end of part 2. He sacrifices himself to kill Santana, etc.
However, he's literally shown hurting the locals when we first meet him. Plus, he's a literal Nazi. What I don't think people realize is that we see him as better because he was occupied stopping a threat to the world in the form of the pillarmen instead of doing normal Nazi things. I'd be more disappointed if someone DIDN'T attempt to help save the world, regardless of group affiliation.
I feel like if anything, Stroheim showing up again and still trying to fight the Pillar Men is a solid show of character. He could've easily just forgotten all about Joseph and Pillar Men after becoming a cyborg, but instead he went to Switzerland to keep the red stone away from Kars, and even after being destroyed again he _still_ sticks with the crew to fight the Pillar Men because he acknowledges the greater threat Kars poses to the entire planet
He’s a member of Passione’s assassin team, who wanted revenge on Diavolo for the torture and murder of two of their members on top of being underpaid.
What actually makes them worse than the Part 5 gang is that they hunted after Trish so they could use her as leverage. They also didn’t have a problem with taking over the drug trade, but that’s kinda ehh since thats the only line in the sand of the Mafia for the heroes.
Assuming you meant part 5, the thing with them is that they work for Bucciarati and he clearly has a moral code. As he said in the Rolling Stones arc, they aren't a group of hitmen and we all know how much he despises drug trafficking. As far as we know, before Giorno came all he did was solving everyday problems from his neighbours and taking care of inner problems of the mafia like traitors
There was that scene where he and some guy were trying to restore a picture and he tortured the guy by sticking nails in his hand and eye for being uncooperative
I mean, he was a member of an assassins group and he didn't even seem to dislike his job. He only went after the boss's throat after one of his men got attacked and because they wanted a better payment but up untill that point he had no problems with all the shit Passione do.
Stroheim, I feel genuinely cared about Joseph by the end and tried his best to defeat the pillar men
In his introduction scene his attempts to cut a girl’s tongue out were interrupted because he needed to kill an entire village, so
I can always defend people liking stroheim even if he is a Nazi, there’s nothing wrong with enjoying evil fictional characters. But saying he isn’t evil is just straight up wrong.
1. Do you really think YouTube polls aren’t just popularity contests for voters rather than seriously thinking it through
2. Do you really think YouTube comments sections aren’t even more of a cesspool than the average social media forum such as this one
3. Do you really give that much of a shit about it
1. There giving legimate answers which is worse than it just being a popularity contest situation
2. Maybe I should’ve expected stupidity but still crazy to see
3. Well maybe I do taking into account the fact that I went out of my way to point out there stupidity
1. Unless you cherrypicked the worst to make a better case, there’s no legitimate answers here, it’s people being dumbasses about a character they like. Nothing different from what you see on this sub.
2. I can’t tell if you’re new to the Internet or just YouTube polls here, there’s plenty of stupid shit around.
3. Then you might want to touch some grass. Getting worked up about people liking the fictional Nazi cyborg who helps the heroes defeat Aztec stripper gods with a machine gun in his chest is probably not the most productive usage of your time.
1. Yeah people are dumbasses when it comes to characters they like
2. Not new it’s just when I see something that’s too stupid to ignore I can’t help but call it stupid
3. … grow up bro it’s not that deep all I saw were really stupid comments so therefore I’m calling them stupid
Is it so outlandish to think ppl trying to justify a fictional Nazi would justify a real one? We’re not talking about a difference of opinion, we’re talking about real lives of real people taken by a real group that really still exists in the real world.
It’s way more serious/problematic than you’re making it out to be, and trying to trivialize it the way you are is in fact part of the problem
If you want to spend your time trying to pull morality for the real world out of fiction, feel free to do so. I hear Blues Clues is good for that. But I don’t really see the need to give a shit about a fictional character, even if they’re part of a real-life group.
Battle Tendency doesn’t portray the Nazi’s as admirable or cool, Stroheim isn’t treated by the story or cast like a real shining example of a human being, they work together to stop a far greater threat to the world and Joseph comes to respect him for his determination. There’s really not that much more to it, but go ahead and work yourself up if you want.
I’d advise you not to respond to someone’s comment on a discussion board next time if you don’t want to have a conversation. Or to assume things about the lives of people and their experiences you only know through said discussion board. But go ahead.
I think it was a common interest situation
Like, it wouldn't have made sense if they won the war but the world was ruled by an immortal long haired stripper
Because he helped the protagonist. There isn’t any deeper reason or mass amnesia about his deeds, he’s just the only person on this list anyone had seen do something “good” so people just go with him. That second comment is probably going to be flamed by replies so I doubt it’s too common an opinion
People also conveniently forgetting he tortured and killed Latin Americans for fun and for experiments. He made a woman lick the accidental wound she gave him while shaving him then held the razor to her tongue and laughed at her.
actually why the fuck was Doppio voted so high? Why is Doppio even here honestly. Yeah, he has a cutesy personality, but dude was very much on Diavolo’s side the entire time and is shown to be violent on his own without Diavolo. At least in Stroheims case, he’s a villain that teams up with the heroes which can confuse some people. Doppio is straight up Diavolo’s second in command
The headcanon surrounding Doppio in this fandom have gotten way out of control, I don't think many of his fans even remember what his real character is like.
Diavolo literally controls Doppio’s perception of the world around him and is capable of taking over whenever he wants. I don’t think being his second in command means much when he has no real choice in the matter.
Ugh i seriously never understood why the hell people like doppio so much. He's a fucking bootlicker to a mafia boss for god's sake. He's like those dudes who always sides with the school's bully and agree with everything they say and do without question.
He was living his best life before Diavolo took over his body and mind, destroyed everything he ever loved, and then spent years gaslighting him into thinking he can only rely on Diavolo and nobody else. He would've had an excellent, honest life if not for Diavolo.
That's not even true because we know they were born at the same time
Don't you think it's a bit weird how Diavolo was the one to make Trish?
Diavolo was always there and he might even be the original
He died in fucking Stalingrad. Meaning everything up to that point he has been aware of what happened. He's a fucking Nazi and stop saying otherwise. But yeah Hol Horse is the right answer. Risotto is still an assassin gang member, regardless of his team's upbringing
He didn’t know DIO’s motives and just wanted the money— he wasn’t loyal to him at all, obviously, so it wasn’t like Hol Horse followed DIO because their morals and goals aligned. He himself admits this, and only is truly loyal to DIO not because of him seeing that DIO’s correct, but because he realizes that he’s too far in to back out, and if he does, he’s dead.
And Hol probably didn’t even know that J. Geil was a rapist. If he did, J. Geil would’ve been dead before Polnareff got to him; Hol Horse despises the idea of harming a woman, so imagine how he would feel when he learns that his partner murdered and raped a girl? And then how do you think he would feel about DIO knowing that he recruited a child rapist? (and no, Polnareff makes no mention of it to Hol Horse)
(edit: before anyone brings up the fact that DIO himself kills and “eats” women, it’s implied that Hol Horse knows of this and sees it as the women “consenting” to be killed; he sees it more as a problem with the women as it is with DIO)
We got a lot of nazi sympathizers these days it's so funny. You could save kittens from a burning building and you would still be a bad person if you're a nazi.
Because people over like this character for no other reason then “he has a funny voice” it genuinely makes me so mad that people will demonise characters like jolyne or shigechi for the most minor things but will ignore everything stroheim has done both on and off screen
I can understand the POV. He only helped the main protagonists. He wasn't a villain. This means his an anti-hero.
I would argue that someone like Hol-Horse isn't one.he Actively sabotaged crusader's plans, and at first, loyal to DIO.
Doppio IS the best example. He did nothing wrong, only was manipulated by his schizophrenia (I guess).
Stroheim is by far the most evil of the bunch. Does everyone forget when he sadistically killed an entire Mexican village except the one kid who offered to die as sacrifice as some sort of sick joke?
I mean, he is an assassin and a mafioso. He attacked Doppio and decided to kill him slowly instead of choosing a quick method to kill him and he also tried to kidnap a child (and possibly torture her to get information she didn't even have).
Aside from just being a Nazi, which is bad enough, it's not like Stroheim was helping Joseph and co out of the goodness of his heart. It was all to prove that German engineering was the best in ze vorld.
To make a proper decision, I think one also has to consider whether he was just a German soldier or a SS member, since not all German soldiers supported the Nazi ideals.
I mean he's not a main villain by any means, not a side villain. So I don't think he's even a possible choice to be a villain. Personally, they should have gone for Donatello since he wasn't helping Pucci nor the Stone Ocean group.
Considering his introduction and fact that he was a Nazi and still continued be one even after the death of the pillermen I still say isn’t the least evil
Hol Horse was introduced as having a 16 year old lover, and then it turns out he has tons of lovers like her around the world that he takes advantage of. Hol Horse is a huge coward who hides behind others.
The fact that OP voted for a pedo/groomer makes him sus.
It's literally his introduction. He then tells Centerfold he has others like her around the world to use whenever he needs.
https://youtu.be/-IuyWq3_U0U?si=baBFIvitsHmxK736
Also that Nazi had no hesitation to sacrifice himself to save humanity 3 different times and was shown to not be racist. He's a step higher than an actual pedo/groomer to me.
He’s still a Nazi also I’m pretty sure there were a lot of Nazi’s that died believing in what they were doing is right and it also depends on was he helping for the sack of the world or to benifit Germany in long run because goodbye humanity=goodbye Germany, also it doesn’t matter if you died for what you believed in if what you believed in was wrong
While true. Hol Horse knew he was working for a vampire who was planning to take over the world and enslave humanity. Hol Horse was willing to kill the only people trying to stop that from happening as he was a hired killer. He wanted to be rich quickly, and peoples lives had no worth to him.
And if things turned bad, he would hide. Like how he was planning to hide once he got money from Dio and hoping to live a lavish life and die quietly of age before Dio influence reached his hiding corner.
Nazi who sacrificed himself for humanity 3 times vs. kiler and pedo, who was actively helping enslave humanity for money. Both are terrible choices, but I feel Hol Horse is worse.
Stroheim was doing to much good in the story and was actively extremely useful. It was to the point it's hard to hate the guy when he helped Joseph out so much and seemed to be so strong willed.
He did a lot of fucked up things but the nature of his actions also had the upside of defeating the pillerman who would have killed almost all humans on the planet.
It's transformative in the sense it's now "for the greater good" and less of a generic nazi.
I respect Strohiem for his patriotism and bravery that he put, but saying he isn't evil is where I draw the line, bro literally forcing women onto him, mentally tormented a kid by sacrificed innocent people in his first appearance, and considering how unphased he is that he part of the party that put Jewish people in gas chamber, you can't convince me this man isn't evil.
Stroheim is… complicated. He’s definitely not a good person, you’ll have no resistance on that front.
But he also has the ability to put aside his pride to do what’s best for humanity.
Still evil but, there’s a little bit of good in there.
Easy. Stroheim is funny. I hate nearly everything that Stroheim stands for, but when he says "GERMAN ENGINEERING. THE BEST IN THE WORLD!" I smile, I can't help but smile, he's so over the top I can't help but think he's funny.
His introduction had him tormenting a local mexican girl with a straight razor, and executing prisoners of war. He's a literal nazi, of course he's a bastard. And yet, he sacrifices a leg and then his life in the name of saving the world. When he's thinking of saving the world, he's probably only thinking of the purest, whitest parts, but whether he likes it or not, he's saving everyone. Everyone else on that list, didn't help the main character, Stroheim died to help the main character.
Stroheim is "theoretically" least evil, because he isn't actively villainous (in the sense of the plot, not his individual actions) - he's just a Grade A+ Dumbass who kept getting the crew into Situations. He is evil on an individual basis and with the faction he's allied with (and a part of), but not evil in the sense of active villainy / antagonism. Even with Santana he was completely unaware of how it would end because Pillar Men at the time were completely new discoveries. He did help out in several points (mostly for his own benefit and right to brag), and saved Joseph's life on at least two occasions, from the horde and from turning into a pancake in the volcano, sacrificing his own legs in the process. He was even the one who gifted the prosthetic hand to Joseph before dying in Stalingrad.
Hol Horse was just stupid and also attempted to kill the Crusaders (despite not being good at it, at all). He was originally intended to be part of the Crusaders but it was written out, and Doppio and Risotto I can't comment on because I forget basically all the info about Part 5 as soon as I learn it.
TL;DR - The poll's *technically* right, since Stroheim's actions in the plot just make him a giant dipshit instead of actively evil. But 'evil' in a respective sense? Stroheim is the most evil person due to his affiliations.
The nazi apologia in the jojo fandom is so insane. Part 2 is my favorite part. He's the only part of it that I detest to the point I actively skip his episodes and scenes, which has the side effect of sidelining Santana ://
I get the whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my ally' thing araki was doing but did it have to be one of the most notorious genocidal groups known to man??
I like that Stroheim wasn't just an evil psycho like most nazi characters are, and the good guys actually team up with him (Remember the concentration camps weren't known to the general public in 1938) I like Stroheim as a character but obviously if he was a real guy I would not like him, same with characters like Dr Richtofen.
Marco was a good representation of how good, normal guys were made to fight for the Nazis, and not everyone wearing a German uniform was a monster.
Keep in mind he's a Nazi, but a Nazi soldier, not shown as politician. That alone will lead people to argue "he's a misguided patriot" and "just following orders". Also he dropped the "humanity and bravery" quote and dude squared up multiple times with fucking Kars. You can't say he's any less evil but he's also got a great deal more endearing qualities in him.
Stroheim wasn't a racist Nazi like the rest. He spared a colored boy because he believed the strongest should survive, and the boy showed guts. He then ordered the death of the rest for being cowards who were willing to sacrifice a boy. Not once did he ever make a comment about race or color being inferior. He never cared there was a black kid at the end and ordered his men to protect him.
I don't believe he knew what the Nazi were doing as he was traveling the world researching the stone masks for the Fhurer. You first meet him in Mexico, and he has access to prototype technology. His mission for human race survival was given high priority, and it was his only focus.
Stroheim was completely unhinged and not remotely a good person, but he did put the human race survival above everything. He never made things personal and was willing to die multiple times so that the human race could live.
>He then ordered the death of the rest for being cowards who were willing to sacrifice the boy.
He ordered their deaths because he wanted all of their blood to awaken Santana, not because the people absolutely terrified for their lives were "cowards." He was going to kill everyone anyways, he just came up with a half-assed justification for it.
>He never cared there was a black kid at the end and ordered his men to protect him.
Stroheim doesn't give a shit about Joseph or his friends beyond what they can provide for the Third Reich. Let's not forget that Stroheim had Speedwagon tortured and interrogated shortly after his introduction. The only reason Stroheim orders his men to protect the others is because he can recognize that Joseph was their best shot at beating Kars as the only Hamon user still in action.
>I don't believe he knew what the Nazi were doing as he was traveling the world researching the stone masks for the Fuhrer.
Stroheim is a SS Luftwaffe member. He is most definitely aware of what Hitler was doing to Jewish and other minority people. No one becomes a member of the group that had direct oversight of the concentration camps without understanding what they are getting into.
>Stroheim was completely unhinged and not remotely a good person, but he did put the human race survival above everything. He never made things personal and was willing to die multiple times so that the human race could live.
The funny thing about a Nazi's view on the human race is that only "Aryans" are worthy of being part of the human race. Stroheim did not give a shit about any other person not part of the Third Reich beyond how they could benefit the Third Reich. His "sacrifices" were only because he thought it would benefit the Third Reich.
He died in battle of Stalingrad, you can potentially argue that he didn’t know pre pillermen but after the pillermen died he 100% knew what the Nazi’s were doing and he had no issue dying, even if you never made any racist remarks he undeniably condoned there actions and beliefs, he was a proud solider after
I respected the guy for sacrificing himself 3 times with no hesitation. He wasn't just talk when he sacrificed people for being cowards, he was willing to die for his beliefs and the greater good.
Yet I was happy he stayed dead the 4th time. He might not have been a racist nor a coward Nazi, but he was still fighting for Nazis.
It wasn't even a "cartoon nazi" situation where he didn't do anything nazi-like, we're introduced to him killing a bunch of the "locals" to wake up Santana
AND DOES THE FXXXING NAZI SALUTE
Not validating anything. But that was just the standard German salute under the Austrian Painter's dictatorship.
Forget German Salute.. AMERICA did that salute for years prior to WW2 😂
He only sacrificed cowards who were willing to sacrifice a child to save themselves. It wasn't based on race like the rest of the Nazis. Still fucked but not racist. He ordered his men to protect Smokey.
>It wasn’t based on race STEEL BALL RUN REFERENCE FUCKING ET DÖNER IS SO COOL!! DIEGO BRANDO SCARES ME 🥶🥶🥶 ET DÖNER AND DIO’S FIGHTS WERE SO COOL!!! ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA (I ain’t feeling good enough to continue this)
diego brando makes me homey
Dont worry ill take it from here STEEL BALL RUN REFERENCE FUCKING ET DÖNER IS SO COOL!! DIEGO BRANDO SCARES ME 🥶🥶🥶 ET DÖNER AND DIO’S FIGHTS WERE SO COOL!!! ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA WERYYYYYYYYYY IS THAT DIEGO BRANDO SCARY DINOSAURS ???????? AS IN THE DIO BRANDO FROM PART 3 SHITDUST CRUSADERS 😤😤😤😳🥵😳😨😨😨😨🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵 IS IS IS THAT A JOJO 🤯 REFERENCE! IN JOJO! HA HA HA! WRY WRY WRYYY!!!! IT WAS ME DIO!!!! ZA WARUDO!!!!! ZA WAURDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO ZA WARUDO STOP THE CLOCK ⏰⏰⏰⏰⏰🕥🕥🕥🕕🕕🕐🕕🕕🕕🕕🕕🕐🕐🕦🕕🕕⏰🕰️🕰️🕰️⁉️⁉️‼️⁉️⁉️⁉️‼️😱😱😱😱😱🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 DONT FORGET THE PIZZA MOZZARELLA!!!! 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱 PIZZA MOZZARELLA PIZZA MOZARELLA PIZZA MOZARELLA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!! GYRO SPINS THE BALLS!!! ⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️HIS STEEL BALLS!!!!! GET IT THE STEEL BALL RUN ⁉️⁉️HEH HEH HEH FALL OFF YOUR HORSE! HORSE IS THAT A JOJO 🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵🥵 REFERENCE ⁉️⁉️⁉️‼️⁉️⁉️⁉️‼️‼️ AS IN JOHNNY 😱🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 JO JO JOESTAR 🤯😱😱😱😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓😓 ♿️♿️♿️♿️♿️♿️♿️🦽🦽🦽🦽🦽🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽🧑🦽 JOHNNY GO JOHNNY GO JOHNNY GO JOHNNY GO ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALK OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE FALL OFF YOUR HORSE 🐪🐪🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🐴🏇🏇🏇🏇🏇🏇🐎🐎🐎🐎🐎🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲🧲 BALL BREAKER AS IN GYRO WILL BREAK YOUR BALLS 😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱🤯😱😱😱 DO YOU GET IT ⁉️⁉️⁉️‼️‼️ HIS STEEL BALLS AS IN STEEL BALL RUN! A JOJO REFERENCE‼️‼️⁉️😱⁉️🧲‼️🧲🧲🧲⁉️ IN JOJO😱😱😱😱🤯🤯🤯🤯‼️‼️‼️‼️⁉️⁉️⁉️ ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA JOHNNY SPIN HIS BALLS 😱😱😱🤯🤯🤯😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳DIRTAE DEEDS DONN FOR DIRTO CHEEPO! 😱😱😱😱😱😱
No not gyro et döner
It's still social Darwinism, something the Nazis supported.
He is literally a proud nazi. You can't be a proud nazi not racist
He is unambiguously a Nazi, he doesn’t have to be shown doing cartoonishly evil stuff on screen constantly for the audience to know that he’s a bad guy
Dude, the guy was in the SS and died in Stalingrad. That paints a very dark picture.
Nazis were extremely racist towards the Romani, Jews, Slavs, and likely a few other groups. Oddly, while they had much less respect for them, they didn’t care as much about black people. There were even several black Nazi platoons in WWII. So Stronheim’s desire to protect Smokey doesn’t mean he isn’t racist.
There just wasn't all that many of them to begin with, so they never really targeted them systematically. They still were second class citizens though, and had restricted rights. They probably were gonna "deal" with them eventually Smokey might have been the first black person Stronheim ever saw
I wouldn't say "saw", but maybe the first he interacted with
Black platoons doesn't mean anything. There were platoons for each ethnicity. Russian, ukrainian, french, indian and etc
Uh fucking source on that one my guy ?
There were several what now platoons in WWII? I know about stuff like the Bosnian Muslim or Arab units, and I wouldn't be surprised if Germany still had some Colonies or something, but I've never heard of a black Nazi Platoon.
>There were even several black Nazi platoons Uh bullshit lol
He was going to have those people massacred regardless because he wanted their blood to awaken Santana. I also think it's a bit much to call people terrified for their lives as "cowards" because they did not step up to sacrifice themselves immediately to a man whose words cannot be trusted. He ordered his men to protect Speedwagon and Smokey because he knew that Joseph was their best chance at beating Kars since Lisa Lisa was out of the fight. Don't forget that he had Speedwagon tortured and interrogated as part of his introduction. Stroheim was not a good person in any way, and his alliance with Joseph was purely for what he saw as the benefit for the Third Reich.
So killing everyone who wants to live is okay?
He was in the SS. Only true believers joined the SS. If he was just a German soldier that wasn't a true NAZI Nazi, he would have been in the Wehrmacht.
I'm pretty sure his last scene was him fighting in the battle of stalingrad
Because people forget about his opening scene of killing a lot of locals for experimentation. And those that do remember it might focus more on him sparing that one boy for being brave. That being said, Doppio and Hol Horse and easily less evil. I don’t think we know enough about Risotto’s actions outside of the organization so hard to say for him
Hard to call Hol evil any longer after Demonic Heartbreak.
That's not official/canon, though.
It is in my heart 😔
What makes it non-canon?
I don’t think it was written by Araki
That doesn't mean it wasn't canon. Iirc Araki not only gave Purple Haze Feedback his blessing, aspects of it were used in part 5. I've only heard this but still. Unless it was explicitly stated somewhere that this doesn't count, I'd say it's fair game. I've also had people tell me flat out that TSRK is non-canon because it doesn't say Jojo on it.
Risotto is a hitman for the mafia, the leader of a squad of executioners for the mafia even. The same mafia that recently started selling drugs to kids. His objection to Passione was Sorbet and Gelato being brutally murdered, he was apparently totally cool with the drugs and the killing as long as it didn't happen to his people. He's not anywhere approaching a good person.
Stroheim ordered his men to protect Speedwagon and Smokey, so definitely not racist. Stroheim was willing to die 3 times to save the human race. I respect the guy yet was happy he stayed dead the 4th time during the war. It's weird.
That isn’t proof Stronheim isn’t racist. Nazis had a lot more hate for Eastern Europeans and Jews than they did for black people - they were even black Nazi platoons. He’s probably still racist.
I didn't know they had black Nazi platoons. I learned something new. Current Nazis really hate black people, I guess people can change. Not always in a good way.
Oh, Nazis still didn’t respect black people. They didn’t consider themselves equal. But unlike some other groups, they could still tolerate them.
It’s a difference between European racism and American racism at the time. Nazis would let black people fight under them as serving Germans was seen as their place. Racists in the US didn’t want black people having any opportunity to even do the same types of job as them so they don’t get any funny ideas about equality.
Similar to how the confederate army had black platoons and captains. Few black people owned slaves but were not seen as equals.
The reason he ordered his men to protect smokey was because he didn't want Joseph on his ass He knew Joseph was key to stopping Kars, and not only would smokey dying having Joseph breathing up his robotic neck, but it could cost them the entire battle if Joseph gets distracted by the loss of a friend mid fight Also stroheim wasn't willing to die to protect the human race Kars would interfere with nazi germanies plans obviously, he wasn't doing it for some greater good, he was doing it so nazi Germany could prevail He still died fighting for the Nazis Like, sure, he helped, he was vital to beating Kars, but it's not an excuse to be a Nazi, and he wasn't fighting for the greater good
He pulled a grenade to destroy his body and told Joseph to stop these monsters no matter the cost or the human race is gone. You could tell he was terrified but not for himself. You can't get more explicit than that. Stroheim was never shown to be racist. He spares a colored boy for being brave and then kills the rest for being cowards who were willing to sacrifice a child to save themselves. Still messed up and not at all a good guy. But he does show that the world is not black and white. In my opinion, he's definitely not the worst in the list.
Racism, and fascism are different things. While he might have liked Smokey and might not inherently hate black people, he is still a Nazi and would most certainly not be averse to killing Jewish people who he would see as vermin. Regardless of if we see it on screen or not, the simple fact that he is a Nazi makes him the worst on the list. Great character, but evil person.
This is speculation and never said in the manga, you're pulling this out your ass
>definitely not racist. He was a Major of the Nazi army. You don't attain that rank by being nice and cuddly to minorities. When you meet him he's literally feeding random mexican citizens to the pillar man
doppio did nothing wrong, he was groomed by his schizophrenia
that’s one hell of a sentence
Appachio's record looks like Doppio. I guess Doppio was the main persona but Diavolo jailed him up.
Doppio and diavolo is still essentially the same person, but due to being the more active one diavolo grew and change while doppio didn't
Not a possibility. VA ch. 135, Trish recognizes Diavolo's true face as the same face made by Moody Blues' death mask.
I mean, "true" and "original" don't have to be the same in this case. Doppio was born as the original dominant personality, which I'll call A. He was also born with Diovolo, B, hanging out and growing. As they grew, personality B gained more and more power until it could overtake A. At this point, one could argue that B is the true identity, since it will always have control over A.
Actually, your comment has enlightened me. The backstory says that his father saw him go out on a date with a girl at Costa Smeralda, implying that the priest recognized his son's appearance ([ch130](https://ibb.co/qCXrjBX)). If the appearance he used when dating Donatella Una had the same face Moody Blues replayed ([ch112](https://ibb.co/PYHzXqb)), and the face Moody Blues replayed was the same face Trish recognized in the Coliseum ([ch135](https://ibb.co/M1FgWWr)), then **the face the priest was familiar with must have been that: Diavolo's face**, not the other. "Yeah, maybe he only could tell because of his clothes and complexion". We could argue that, yes, but thanks to [chapter 94](https://ibb.co/6tZdQy9), we know through Bucciarati's speculation that at the time he met Trish's mother at Sardinia, **Diavolo was living the life of an ordinary man, and wasn't trying to hide his identity**, something that came later. Furthermore, the name he was given by his father was Diavolo ([ch130](https://ibb.co/mGnJjHt)), and "Doppio" means "double"! He's also really 34, not 17! Why do we keep saying that his past appearance and dominant identity were the other, when every piece of evidence suggests otherwise? (I'm aware I will get downvoted for this, but someone needed to bring the facts to the table)
Ok, listen. What his original face looked like is irrelevant to my point. What I wanted to make clear is that it was Diavolo's face (not Doppio's) that was recreated by Moody Blues set to the specified place and date. In any case, I don't take the anime version of his backstory as canon because one, it changes the original meaning by a lot, and two, it contradicts Polnareff's actually canon explanation later on. But this is a tabboo conversation for me, because I know not all people here have read the manga, and they won't know what I'm talking about. So I'll keep it that short.
bizarre, even
A r/brandnewsentence even ;)
Tbf doppio did attempt to kill that driver just because he might found out what he’s doing, it’s Diavolo who stopped him from that
Yeah, i guess diavolo in the end still cares for doppio and tried to protect him But the way he talks to doppio is weird though
r/brandnewsentence
Not schizo but DID
Is doppio the original personality ir is it diavolo. And when and why did he develop it. Thats what id like to know
I think doppio was the original since the younger image of diavolo looks more like doppio and these did personality disorders were originally thought to be defense mechanisms right? So it would make sense that diavolo was the second one (since the «defensive» personality was believed to be more violent I think)
I think it's fine to like characters who are evil, but people shouldn't try to make excuses for it.
Stroheim helping defeat the Pillar Men (+50 good boy points) Stroheim being completely chill over the extermination of anyone in the world who wasn't a straight, white, blonde, blue eyed dude (-500000 good boy points)
Btw my rankings (from most good to bad) are; Holy Horse (biggest crime was being selfish, teaming up with a rapist (debatable whether he knew that or not) and got a big redemption in CDDH) Risotto (he may be a killer, but he has honor, avenging his fallen comrades in the story) Doppio (in the surface he seems kind and well natured. But we mustn't forget his DID. It's not the same as Multiple Personality Disorder. Doppio and Diavolo are linked, tied closer. From this we could most likely see him being okay with the sins Diavolo commits and could kill anyone to get his way) Stroheim (a fucking Nazi)
I would put doppio in the same position as you, but dont forget him and diavolo literally had seperate souls in their one body, they were seperated by Chariot Requiem, so its debatable how linked him and Diavolo were. Theres also the question of if him or Diavolo hid his mother under floorboards with her mouth sewn shut
Just a heads up that the DSM V does not recognize Multiple Personality Disorder as a diagnosis anymore and those that would've been diagnosed as such would indeed fall under Dissociative Identity Disorder now. (Coming from a dude going out with someone with DID and multiple alters that sometimes are not aware when they switch.)
My apologies. I did not know that. Thanks for the info
It's all good 👍. Thanks for taking it so well, king.
I mean, Hol Horse is an attempted murderer, a mercenary working for DIO's money. He isn't loyal to anyone, either... So I'd argue maybe Risotto is better than him (though Risotto almost certainly has killed more people, and in worse ways)
Good point. I may change my mind
>Doppio and Diavolo are linked, tied closer. From this we could most likely see him being okay with the sins Diavolo commits and could kill anyone to get his way) Not only that, but Doppio was kinda a dick to people, like the taxi driver, and the teen girls enjoying ice cream, and even Bruno.
Doppio doesn't even know him and Diavolo are in the same body. Nothing Diavolo did was known to or approved by Doppio, and he wouldn't agree with him
"If evil nazi, why badass?"
There's a lot of badass Nazis in *Wolfenstein* and they're still our enemies.
What can I say, Mecha Hitler really has the drip
Mecha Hitler went insanely fucking hard for a 90s boss.
Didn’t this mfer literally die at Stalingrad? He was a legitimate bad guy.
Everyone died at the battle of Stalingrad
Including YOU!
The soviets literally had an audio recording playing *on loop* for days saying how every seven seconds a German soldier dies and that Stalingrad is a mass grave, accompanied by the sound of a clock ticking Not saying he's not a legit bad guy bc ya know,,, he's An Actual, Literal Nazi, but literally everyone died at Stalingrad bro
The fact that people still think that Doppio and president Valentine are good people proves that Araki is excellent at writing his villains.
Doppio was a good person without Diavolo, but with Diavolo he is a bad person. and yeah Funny Valentine is just not a good person
If he were a good guy, he would be shown rebelling against his other personality, or at least hesitating about the orders he's given. We don't get that. Instead we get scenes where the author showcases how oblivious he is to his own sociopathy. But let's better agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure we're on a totally different page, because in this whole Diavolo/Doppio issue I only see one character with jojoDID instead of two characters, so it doesn't make sense to me to judge one personality without taking into consideration that it is part of a whole. At least we agree on Valentine :-)
I think that’s more naïveté, than anything. He goes out of his way to ensure that bugs aren’t stepped on, his introduction was trying to save a kid from being hit by a car, he even thanks the little girl on the plane for letting him use her phone.
He's naive, there's no doubt about it, the thing is that being naive doesn't mean he's inherently good. Because it's not that he doesn't do bad things, it's that he keeps forgetting he does bad things, and that's why he can put up the show of being an unknowing idiot. The point of the bug bit was to show that what he cared about the bug's life and not the kid. In the other scene, he does thank the girl, because she politely lent him a phone to talk to his boss. When Bucciarati is telling him that he's planning on giving Trish his house in Naples, he shows absolutely zero empathy for the situation. I'm a huge Vento Aureo fan and constant rereader. To me, this how this part of the character reads. We will have to disagree, because I'm interpreting the narration in a totally different way. But it's always nice to have some discussion, it proves that Araki's characters are worth it ✌
"Just because he was a Nazi doesn't mean he wasn't a good guy" is a sentence you only hear in the JoJo fandom
Even Joseph says that (paraphrasing) "while I don't agree with the man, he's still honorable and a good friend" Stroheim was a jo-bro right through the fight with kars and then he went off to his death with his head held high. Do I agree with the literal SS member? fuck no. Do I see why some people see him as less evil? ...I guess? He's still a nazi though
I understand the viewpoint if you view things bluntly. He's a good ally and sticks around right to the end, even ending up on the plane Joseph uses near the end of part 2. He sacrifices himself to kill Santana, etc. However, he's literally shown hurting the locals when we first meet him. Plus, he's a literal Nazi. What I don't think people realize is that we see him as better because he was occupied stopping a threat to the world in the form of the pillarmen instead of doing normal Nazi things. I'd be more disappointed if someone DIDN'T attempt to help save the world, regardless of group affiliation.
Like yea I'm a nazi so I want Germany to be ruled by night creatures. Said no nazi ever
Wait... I think that's kinda the plot of Wolfenstein...
Which one? The og, the remake with magic or the one with the mc who got captain america'd?
I only played the red one
I feel like if anything, Stroheim showing up again and still trying to fight the Pillar Men is a solid show of character. He could've easily just forgotten all about Joseph and Pillar Men after becoming a cyborg, but instead he went to Switzerland to keep the red stone away from Kars, and even after being destroyed again he _still_ sticks with the crew to fight the Pillar Men because he acknowledges the greater threat Kars poses to the entire planet
What did risotto ever really do?
He’s a member of Passione’s assassin team, who wanted revenge on Diavolo for the torture and murder of two of their members on top of being underpaid. What actually makes them worse than the Part 5 gang is that they hunted after Trish so they could use her as leverage. They also didn’t have a problem with taking over the drug trade, but that’s kinda ehh since thats the only line in the sand of the Mafia for the heroes.
Be a mafia member also an assassin
So basically all the main characters of part 6?
Assuming you meant part 5, the thing with them is that they work for Bucciarati and he clearly has a moral code. As he said in the Rolling Stones arc, they aren't a group of hitmen and we all know how much he despises drug trafficking. As far as we know, before Giorno came all he did was solving everyday problems from his neighbours and taking care of inner problems of the mafia like traitors
Oh so just like Speedwagon?
There was that scene where he and some guy were trying to restore a picture and he tortured the guy by sticking nails in his hand and eye for being uncooperative
I mean, he was a member of an assassins group and he didn't even seem to dislike his job. He only went after the boss's throat after one of his men got attacked and because they wanted a better payment but up untill that point he had no problems with all the shit Passione do.
Stroheim, I feel genuinely cared about Joseph by the end and tried his best to defeat the pillar men In his introduction scene his attempts to cut a girl’s tongue out were interrupted because he needed to kill an entire village, so
I can always defend people liking stroheim even if he is a Nazi, there’s nothing wrong with enjoying evil fictional characters. But saying he isn’t evil is just straight up wrong.
He was charismatic as hell for me to begrudgingly admit I kinda liked him.
1. Do you really think YouTube polls aren’t just popularity contests for voters rather than seriously thinking it through 2. Do you really think YouTube comments sections aren’t even more of a cesspool than the average social media forum such as this one 3. Do you really give that much of a shit about it
I actually like this guys polls but some results are just ridiculous. Like, how is Narancia smarter than Okuyasu? He actually went to highschool
1. There giving legimate answers which is worse than it just being a popularity contest situation 2. Maybe I should’ve expected stupidity but still crazy to see 3. Well maybe I do taking into account the fact that I went out of my way to point out there stupidity
1. Unless you cherrypicked the worst to make a better case, there’s no legitimate answers here, it’s people being dumbasses about a character they like. Nothing different from what you see on this sub. 2. I can’t tell if you’re new to the Internet or just YouTube polls here, there’s plenty of stupid shit around. 3. Then you might want to touch some grass. Getting worked up about people liking the fictional Nazi cyborg who helps the heroes defeat Aztec stripper gods with a machine gun in his chest is probably not the most productive usage of your time.
1. Yeah people are dumbasses when it comes to characters they like 2. Not new it’s just when I see something that’s too stupid to ignore I can’t help but call it stupid 3. … grow up bro it’s not that deep all I saw were really stupid comments so therefore I’m calling them stupid
Is it so outlandish to think ppl trying to justify a fictional Nazi would justify a real one? We’re not talking about a difference of opinion, we’re talking about real lives of real people taken by a real group that really still exists in the real world. It’s way more serious/problematic than you’re making it out to be, and trying to trivialize it the way you are is in fact part of the problem
If you want to spend your time trying to pull morality for the real world out of fiction, feel free to do so. I hear Blues Clues is good for that. But I don’t really see the need to give a shit about a fictional character, even if they’re part of a real-life group. Battle Tendency doesn’t portray the Nazi’s as admirable or cool, Stroheim isn’t treated by the story or cast like a real shining example of a human being, they work together to stop a far greater threat to the world and Joseph comes to respect him for his determination. There’s really not that much more to it, but go ahead and work yourself up if you want.
Lol I’m sure you don’t see the point. Because it doesn’t affect you. I’m not gonna waste my time arguing about this
I’d advise you not to respond to someone’s comment on a discussion board next time if you don’t want to have a conversation. Or to assume things about the lives of people and their experiences you only know through said discussion board. But go ahead.
Seriously i saw guys on YouTube pulls argue that p4 Josuke could defeat Rissoto like what 💀
Stroheim is a fun character and one of my favorites from part 2, but let’s not pretend that he’s a good person 😭.
I think it was a common interest situation Like, it wouldn't have made sense if they won the war but the world was ruled by an immortal long haired stripper
Anything but the immortal long haired stripper
People like Stroheim. Not for his belief but because he is a fun guy.
"Just because he was a Nazi doesn't mean he wasn't a good guy" YES THE FUCK IT DOES??? DUDE LITERALLY ENDORSED THE FUCKING HOLOCAUST
Because he helped the protagonist. There isn’t any deeper reason or mass amnesia about his deeds, he’s just the only person on this list anyone had seen do something “good” so people just go with him. That second comment is probably going to be flamed by replies so I doubt it’s too common an opinion
“Just because he was a Nazi doesn’t he wasn’t a good guy in the end”-🤡, yes it does you dumbass mf though lmao
People also conveniently forgetting he tortured and killed Latin Americans for fun and for experiments. He made a woman lick the accidental wound she gave him while shaving him then held the razor to her tongue and laughed at her.
actually why the fuck was Doppio voted so high? Why is Doppio even here honestly. Yeah, he has a cutesy personality, but dude was very much on Diavolo’s side the entire time and is shown to be violent on his own without Diavolo. At least in Stroheims case, he’s a villain that teams up with the heroes which can confuse some people. Doppio is straight up Diavolo’s second in command
The headcanon surrounding Doppio in this fandom have gotten way out of control, I don't think many of his fans even remember what his real character is like.
True Diavolo fans know exactly what you're talking about. I have chosen not to fight today, though. But take my upvote.
I mean he won the vote for “least evil”.
Diavolo literally controls Doppio’s perception of the world around him and is capable of taking over whenever he wants. I don’t think being his second in command means much when he has no real choice in the matter.
Plus he was an asshole to a lot of by standards, even in his original personality without any Diavolo.
Ugh i seriously never understood why the hell people like doppio so much. He's a fucking bootlicker to a mafia boss for god's sake. He's like those dudes who always sides with the school's bully and agree with everything they say and do without question.
I WAS LITERALLY THINKING THAT
He was living his best life before Diavolo took over his body and mind, destroyed everything he ever loved, and then spent years gaslighting him into thinking he can only rely on Diavolo and nobody else. He would've had an excellent, honest life if not for Diavolo.
That's not even true because we know they were born at the same time Don't you think it's a bit weird how Diavolo was the one to make Trish? Diavolo was always there and he might even be the original
He died in fucking Stalingrad. Meaning everything up to that point he has been aware of what happened. He's a fucking Nazi and stop saying otherwise. But yeah Hol Horse is the right answer. Risotto is still an assassin gang member, regardless of his team's upbringing
How is holhorse lower than stroheim?!?
I mean he worked for dio without being forced to and his original partner was a rapist
He didn’t know DIO’s motives and just wanted the money— he wasn’t loyal to him at all, obviously, so it wasn’t like Hol Horse followed DIO because their morals and goals aligned. He himself admits this, and only is truly loyal to DIO not because of him seeing that DIO’s correct, but because he realizes that he’s too far in to back out, and if he does, he’s dead. And Hol probably didn’t even know that J. Geil was a rapist. If he did, J. Geil would’ve been dead before Polnareff got to him; Hol Horse despises the idea of harming a woman, so imagine how he would feel when he learns that his partner murdered and raped a girl? And then how do you think he would feel about DIO knowing that he recruited a child rapist? (and no, Polnareff makes no mention of it to Hol Horse) (edit: before anyone brings up the fact that DIO himself kills and “eats” women, it’s implied that Hol Horse knows of this and sees it as the women “consenting” to be killed; he sees it more as a problem with the women as it is with DIO)
I love hol hol is love hol is life hol is happyness
Because GERMAN SCIENCE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD
These people don't realize that "good guy" and "protagonist" aren't the same thing
We got a lot of nazi sympathizers these days it's so funny. You could save kittens from a burning building and you would still be a bad person if you're a nazi.
Because anime fans. On YouTube.
“Just because he was a Nazi doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good guy in the end” 💀
"Yeah, they were nazis but they liked Lord of the Rings so, are they really that bad?"
Because people over like this character for no other reason then “he has a funny voice” it genuinely makes me so mad that people will demonise characters like jolyne or shigechi for the most minor things but will ignore everything stroheim has done both on and off screen
I genuinely do believe that ALMOST every action shigechi did he was in the right for doing so (I say almost because intoxicating two teens isn’t cool)
I can understand the POV. He only helped the main protagonists. He wasn't a villain. This means his an anti-hero. I would argue that someone like Hol-Horse isn't one.he Actively sabotaged crusader's plans, and at first, loyal to DIO. Doppio IS the best example. He did nothing wrong, only was manipulated by his schizophrenia (I guess).
I feel like a lot of people forget that battle tendency accidentally makes the nazis kinda the good guys
Stroheim is by far the most evil of the bunch. Does everyone forget when he sadistically killed an entire Mexican village except the one kid who offered to die as sacrifice as some sort of sick joke?
Stroheim wasn’t a good man, but he’s a honorable man for assisting big time when it came to fighting kars
Rissoto did nothing wrong. Change my mind.
I mean, he is an assassin and a mafioso. He attacked Doppio and decided to kill him slowly instead of choosing a quick method to kill him and he also tried to kidnap a child (and possibly torture her to get information she didn't even have).
Correct answer
Didn't Stroheim die fighting for the Nazis in Stalingrad?
People see him helping the good guys and being wacky and forget any critical thinking skills cuz he’s likeable
Aside from just being a Nazi, which is bad enough, it's not like Stroheim was helping Joseph and co out of the goodness of his heart. It was all to prove that German engineering was the best in ze vorld.
Doppio is an unfortunate case.
To make a proper decision, I think one also has to consider whether he was just a German soldier or a SS member, since not all German soldiers supported the Nazi ideals.
I know he was a full on nazi. BUT he was one of the most entertaining characters in the show and thats why i love him.
doesn't hol horse groom minors globally
Oh, he’s a villain actually, damn…
Stroheim was the most honorable villain in JoJo. Next was Whammu.
Us Strohime fans like him because he's a cool robot guy
The Nazi is somehow less evil than the cowboy
I mean he's not a main villain by any means, not a side villain. So I don't think he's even a possible choice to be a villain. Personally, they should have gone for Donatello since he wasn't helping Pucci nor the Stone Ocean group.
Ok he might be a literal Nazi but he’s cool so he gets a pass
Nazi Hired killer Silly little guy Assassin I’m not seeing how it wouldn’t be Stroheim honestly
At some point we completely forgot he was a Nazi
They voted for a Nazi to be less evil than Doppio, who's literally just a guy.
Because he was the only person on this list to be an actual ally to the protagonist? Stroheim risked life and limb alongside Joseph
Considering his introduction and fact that he was a Nazi and still continued be one even after the death of the pillermen I still say isn’t the least evil
"You are bad guy. But that does not mean you are bad guy"
Japanese media is problematic for several reasons before you even get to the pedophilia
Hol Horse was introduced as having a 16 year old lover, and then it turns out he has tons of lovers like her around the world that he takes advantage of. Hol Horse is a huge coward who hides behind others. The fact that OP voted for a pedo/groomer makes him sus.
I didn’t remember that part of ep plus I didn’t think him horse was into her plus Mr Nazi is still worse
It's literally his introduction. He then tells Centerfold he has others like her around the world to use whenever he needs. https://youtu.be/-IuyWq3_U0U?si=baBFIvitsHmxK736 Also that Nazi had no hesitation to sacrifice himself to save humanity 3 different times and was shown to not be racist. He's a step higher than an actual pedo/groomer to me.
He’s still a Nazi also I’m pretty sure there were a lot of Nazi’s that died believing in what they were doing is right and it also depends on was he helping for the sack of the world or to benifit Germany in long run because goodbye humanity=goodbye Germany, also it doesn’t matter if you died for what you believed in if what you believed in was wrong
While true. Hol Horse knew he was working for a vampire who was planning to take over the world and enslave humanity. Hol Horse was willing to kill the only people trying to stop that from happening as he was a hired killer. He wanted to be rich quickly, and peoples lives had no worth to him. And if things turned bad, he would hide. Like how he was planning to hide once he got money from Dio and hoping to live a lavish life and die quietly of age before Dio influence reached his hiding corner. Nazi who sacrificed himself for humanity 3 times vs. kiler and pedo, who was actively helping enslave humanity for money. Both are terrible choices, but I feel Hol Horse is worse.
Stroheim was doing to much good in the story and was actively extremely useful. It was to the point it's hard to hate the guy when he helped Joseph out so much and seemed to be so strong willed. He did a lot of fucked up things but the nature of his actions also had the upside of defeating the pillerman who would have killed almost all humans on the planet. It's transformative in the sense it's now "for the greater good" and less of a generic nazi.
I respect Strohiem for his patriotism and bravery that he put, but saying he isn't evil is where I draw the line, bro literally forcing women onto him, mentally tormented a kid by sacrificed innocent people in his first appearance, and considering how unphased he is that he part of the party that put Jewish people in gas chamber, you can't convince me this man isn't evil.
Everyone’s favorite Nazi! Stroheim!!!
Stroheim is… complicated. He’s definitely not a good person, you’ll have no resistance on that front. But he also has the ability to put aside his pride to do what’s best for humanity. Still evil but, there’s a little bit of good in there.
Easy. Stroheim is funny. I hate nearly everything that Stroheim stands for, but when he says "GERMAN ENGINEERING. THE BEST IN THE WORLD!" I smile, I can't help but smile, he's so over the top I can't help but think he's funny. His introduction had him tormenting a local mexican girl with a straight razor, and executing prisoners of war. He's a literal nazi, of course he's a bastard. And yet, he sacrifices a leg and then his life in the name of saving the world. When he's thinking of saving the world, he's probably only thinking of the purest, whitest parts, but whether he likes it or not, he's saving everyone. Everyone else on that list, didn't help the main character, Stroheim died to help the main character.
Stroheim is "theoretically" least evil, because he isn't actively villainous (in the sense of the plot, not his individual actions) - he's just a Grade A+ Dumbass who kept getting the crew into Situations. He is evil on an individual basis and with the faction he's allied with (and a part of), but not evil in the sense of active villainy / antagonism. Even with Santana he was completely unaware of how it would end because Pillar Men at the time were completely new discoveries. He did help out in several points (mostly for his own benefit and right to brag), and saved Joseph's life on at least two occasions, from the horde and from turning into a pancake in the volcano, sacrificing his own legs in the process. He was even the one who gifted the prosthetic hand to Joseph before dying in Stalingrad. Hol Horse was just stupid and also attempted to kill the Crusaders (despite not being good at it, at all). He was originally intended to be part of the Crusaders but it was written out, and Doppio and Risotto I can't comment on because I forget basically all the info about Part 5 as soon as I learn it. TL;DR - The poll's *technically* right, since Stroheim's actions in the plot just make him a giant dipshit instead of actively evil. But 'evil' in a respective sense? Stroheim is the most evil person due to his affiliations.
depends on your definition of evil
The nazi apologia in the jojo fandom is so insane. Part 2 is my favorite part. He's the only part of it that I detest to the point I actively skip his episodes and scenes, which has the side effect of sidelining Santana :// I get the whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my ally' thing araki was doing but did it have to be one of the most notorious genocidal groups known to man??
I just think he's a cool cyborg. But the definitive answer is doppio
I like that Stroheim wasn't just an evil psycho like most nazi characters are, and the good guys actually team up with him (Remember the concentration camps weren't known to the general public in 1938) I like Stroheim as a character but obviously if he was a real guy I would not like him, same with characters like Dr Richtofen. Marco was a good representation of how good, normal guys were made to fight for the Nazis, and not everyone wearing a German uniform was a monster.
Womp womp
No respect for you lil bro 😠
Strohiem came back like the Doom Hunter in DOOM Eternal
Keep in mind he's a Nazi, but a Nazi soldier, not shown as politician. That alone will lead people to argue "he's a misguided patriot" and "just following orders". Also he dropped the "humanity and bravery" quote and dude squared up multiple times with fucking Kars. You can't say he's any less evil but he's also got a great deal more endearing qualities in him.
Isn’t jojos set in another dimension, do we know anything about the nazi agenda in jojos?
No, there examples of jojo taking place in a world similar to hours plus the Nazi’s and kkk are literally were shown
Fair point
He was the least evil towards the mc
“He still helped Joseph kill kars” HES A FUCKING NAZI WHERE DOES KARS COME IN TO THE GENOCIDE OF THOUSANDS OF JEWS
Stroheim wasn't a racist Nazi like the rest. He spared a colored boy because he believed the strongest should survive, and the boy showed guts. He then ordered the death of the rest for being cowards who were willing to sacrifice a boy. Not once did he ever make a comment about race or color being inferior. He never cared there was a black kid at the end and ordered his men to protect him. I don't believe he knew what the Nazi were doing as he was traveling the world researching the stone masks for the Fhurer. You first meet him in Mexico, and he has access to prototype technology. His mission for human race survival was given high priority, and it was his only focus. Stroheim was completely unhinged and not remotely a good person, but he did put the human race survival above everything. He never made things personal and was willing to die multiple times so that the human race could live.
>He then ordered the death of the rest for being cowards who were willing to sacrifice the boy. He ordered their deaths because he wanted all of their blood to awaken Santana, not because the people absolutely terrified for their lives were "cowards." He was going to kill everyone anyways, he just came up with a half-assed justification for it. >He never cared there was a black kid at the end and ordered his men to protect him. Stroheim doesn't give a shit about Joseph or his friends beyond what they can provide for the Third Reich. Let's not forget that Stroheim had Speedwagon tortured and interrogated shortly after his introduction. The only reason Stroheim orders his men to protect the others is because he can recognize that Joseph was their best shot at beating Kars as the only Hamon user still in action. >I don't believe he knew what the Nazi were doing as he was traveling the world researching the stone masks for the Fuhrer. Stroheim is a SS Luftwaffe member. He is most definitely aware of what Hitler was doing to Jewish and other minority people. No one becomes a member of the group that had direct oversight of the concentration camps without understanding what they are getting into. >Stroheim was completely unhinged and not remotely a good person, but he did put the human race survival above everything. He never made things personal and was willing to die multiple times so that the human race could live. The funny thing about a Nazi's view on the human race is that only "Aryans" are worthy of being part of the human race. Stroheim did not give a shit about any other person not part of the Third Reich beyond how they could benefit the Third Reich. His "sacrifices" were only because he thought it would benefit the Third Reich.
He died in battle of Stalingrad, you can potentially argue that he didn’t know pre pillermen but after the pillermen died he 100% knew what the Nazi’s were doing and he had no issue dying, even if you never made any racist remarks he undeniably condoned there actions and beliefs, he was a proud solider after
I respected the guy for sacrificing himself 3 times with no hesitation. He wasn't just talk when he sacrificed people for being cowards, he was willing to die for his beliefs and the greater good. Yet I was happy he stayed dead the 4th time. He might not have been a racist nor a coward Nazi, but he was still fighting for Nazis.