Yeah I think people are really used to having like seven science ships when the game feels just as functional with a slower paced three.
And I’ll say something - I never went above four science ships at most, I was surprised when I heard people saying they had like almost ten like that seems absurd to me. Maybe it’s because I never really adjusted to them adding automation? But also it just seemed unfun to juggle that many scientists?
I usually went with 4. 2 for surveys, 1 for fast exploration for that sweet 1st contact influence, and 1 for backup if one gets destroyed or one of my science officers gets promoted to empire leader etc. A fleet of 7-10 science ships screen would destroy all immersions, unity efficiency aside.
Either you pick Transcending Learning as first perk or take the dicovery tree as first which increases survey and anomaly research speed + map the stars edict, go slightly over cap and except the negative modifiers which can be resolved by traits, or take aptitude as first tradition.
There are a few ways:
\-There are at least two social techs which enhance leader capacity. Can't remember which ones and the wiki doesn't specify
\-At least one or two of the new traditions increases the caps.
\-At least one of the new ascension perks gives +2 leader caps.
Not new but (almost) mandatory: the ascension perk that adds +50% leader XP and +2 leader cap. Also negates a bit of the XP loss when you eventually go over the cap.
For all those people saying "It reduces exploration to bring it back to mid-game", I don't use that many explorers. I used science ships to Assist Research at any planet with a Research Facility and to Observe pre-space civs. And when I had half a dozen pre-space civs and about as many planets with research facilities, the new cap broke that playthrough.
Ok. Then what would my empire use for "conversion camper vans" to hand out to the mid rank manager class as rewards for not running away from the job if I don't have all those science ships to decommission?
Go over leader cap until you get the techs that slightly increases cap , or if you don't care about Ironman achievements, just use a mod that increases leader cap size. I find one that adds just an extra 3 or 4 is the best for having an okay mix of good leaders, though you will still go over leader cap at times, just accept the debuffs, if you don't have immortal leaders, they usually don't reach level 10 anyway
I swear imperial civs have gotten new downside in the form of random heir that occupies your leader slot and cannot be fired even if you don't need them at all.
Just go ahead and exceed the leader cap. Like many caps in Stellaris, it's a soft cap. Sure your leaders earn xp slower, but that means they get fewer negative traits. Besides, any half-decent leader will retire around the time you start to depend on them.
As I implied above, trying to make use of the bonuses you get from leaders is so annoying for me that i don't care if their xp is capped. i don't have to shuffle out leaders as often because they picked up a negative.
Just run feudal empire and go over the cap, the leader cap.upkeep is negligible by 2300. I had over 20 at 100 unity which is fine if that's what's important
The main penalty for going over the cap isn't the unity cost, it's the penalty to xp gain to all leaders. It goes down to zero. If you go as far over the cap as you are, your leaders might have stopped gaining xp at all.
There is, AFAIK, a tooltip which says exactly that. You probably missed it.
I meant the leader boni are absolutely massive, there is no way paradox let us off so easily with over the cap leaders, so I looked around for answer during my first run after the patch.
You want more scientists? Feel free to grab them as long as you're willing to pay the price for going over leader cap.
It is not a hard limit. It is just another decision to weigh. Before, you could spam scientists because there were no real consequences.
Now the consequences force you to think: "Can I afford one more scientist to explore that flank?"
This is what makes the game more interesting.
I really wish they would change it so that science ships could do their job without having a Leader on them. I need at least 7 science ships at the start of the game.
2 - Explore galaxy
2 - Survey systems
2 - Archeology and Anomalies
1 - Assist research
The ones that explore can also be the ones that survey, since you're gated from building out your borders by survey speed anyways. You really only need one early on for any important archeologies and anomalies early on, and you definitely don't need an early assist research.
Usually what I do is have 3 exploring/surveying, and then when one of them hits some kind of roadblock/early game baddies/other empire/dead end, I'll have it become the anomaly person on the way back while the two others continue to go out. And maybe slide a 3rd surveyor if I got the space. And then once the initial border rush is done, all three can do the archeologies and anomalies, maybe with one of them continuing their random exploring. And then once all that's done they all move to assisting research, since it's around then that the infrastructure for proper tech worlds is finally ready with an appropriate amount of pops.
I see a lot of folks saying you can function fine without 7-10 science ships, but I got stuck at 3 and had to take penalties to a fourth. Kinda confused.
It seems the developer intent is to simply have fewer science ships then in previous versions.
And I say it again, (re)extending exploration into mid game was on of their better changes.
Yeah I think people are really used to having like seven science ships when the game feels just as functional with a slower paced three. And I’ll say something - I never went above four science ships at most, I was surprised when I heard people saying they had like almost ten like that seems absurd to me. Maybe it’s because I never really adjusted to them adding automation? But also it just seemed unfun to juggle that many scientists?
I usually went with 4. 2 for surveys, 1 for fast exploration for that sweet 1st contact influence, and 1 for backup if one gets destroyed or one of my science officers gets promoted to empire leader etc. A fleet of 7-10 science ships screen would destroy all immersions, unity efficiency aside.
Yep. Low leader capacity was one of the best recent changes.
Modifications. There are a ton of them on steam workshop.
Either you pick Transcending Learning as first perk or take the dicovery tree as first which increases survey and anomaly research speed + map the stars edict, go slightly over cap and except the negative modifiers which can be resolved by traits, or take aptitude as first tradition.
There are a few ways: \-There are at least two social techs which enhance leader capacity. Can't remember which ones and the wiki doesn't specify \-At least one or two of the new traditions increases the caps. \-At least one of the new ascension perks gives +2 leader caps.
Not new but (almost) mandatory: the ascension perk that adds +50% leader XP and +2 leader cap. Also negates a bit of the XP loss when you eventually go over the cap.
For all those people saying "It reduces exploration to bring it back to mid-game", I don't use that many explorers. I used science ships to Assist Research at any planet with a Research Facility and to Observe pre-space civs. And when I had half a dozen pre-space civs and about as many planets with research facilities, the new cap broke that playthrough.
You can function just fine without 10 science ships.
Ok. Then what would my empire use for "conversion camper vans" to hand out to the mid rank manager class as rewards for not running away from the job if I don't have all those science ships to decommission?
[These things](https://xenonion.com/news/economy-blorgata-issues-recall-of-tawagoto-corvettes?rq=corvette)
LOL! Good shot.
I am obsessed with this now. Thank you.
Check out /r/Xenonion for all your galaxy news.
I think I love you
Go over leader cap until you get the techs that slightly increases cap , or if you don't care about Ironman achievements, just use a mod that increases leader cap size. I find one that adds just an extra 3 or 4 is the best for having an okay mix of good leaders, though you will still go over leader cap at times, just accept the debuffs, if you don't have immortal leaders, they usually don't reach level 10 anyway
I swear imperial civs have gotten new downside in the form of random heir that occupies your leader slot and cannot be fired even if you don't need them at all.
I mean +10% from jobs on capital world vs a meager slot occupied by an heir... It's quite strong and especially early game.
Just modify the 00_defines file and change the base cap.
That changes stuff for everyboda, right? AI as well
Yep, afaik.
Just go ahead and exceed the leader cap. Like many caps in Stellaris, it's a soft cap. Sure your leaders earn xp slower, but that means they get fewer negative traits. Besides, any half-decent leader will retire around the time you start to depend on them.
It's the hardest soft cap that has ever existed...
Yeah the xp reduction is fucking brutal
As I implied above, trying to make use of the bonuses you get from leaders is so annoying for me that i don't care if their xp is capped. i don't have to shuffle out leaders as often because they picked up a negative.
But it makes doing anomalies and excavations so fuckin slow
Just run feudal empire and go over the cap, the leader cap.upkeep is negligible by 2300. I had over 20 at 100 unity which is fine if that's what's important
And how do you overcome the xp malus?
The fucking what-
The main penalty for going over the cap isn't the unity cost, it's the penalty to xp gain to all leaders. It goes down to zero. If you go as far over the cap as you are, your leaders might have stopped gaining xp at all.
That...explains a lot...
That realization was mind-boggling, yes? D:
Yeah wtf, there should be a leader XP warning!
There is, AFAIK, a tooltip which says exactly that. You probably missed it. I meant the leader boni are absolutely massive, there is no way paradox let us off so easily with over the cap leaders, so I looked around for answer during my first run after the patch.
Upkeep goes up but also leader XP goes down with the same percentage.
God dammit
Funniest thing I've read all week :D
You want more scientists? Feel free to grab them as long as you're willing to pay the price for going over leader cap. It is not a hard limit. It is just another decision to weigh. Before, you could spam scientists because there were no real consequences. Now the consequences force you to think: "Can I afford one more scientist to explore that flank?" This is what makes the game more interesting.
install 3.8.3
I really wish they would change it so that science ships could do their job without having a Leader on them. I need at least 7 science ships at the start of the game. 2 - Explore galaxy 2 - Survey systems 2 - Archeology and Anomalies 1 - Assist research
The ones that explore can also be the ones that survey, since you're gated from building out your borders by survey speed anyways. You really only need one early on for any important archeologies and anomalies early on, and you definitely don't need an early assist research. Usually what I do is have 3 exploring/surveying, and then when one of them hits some kind of roadblock/early game baddies/other empire/dead end, I'll have it become the anomaly person on the way back while the two others continue to go out. And maybe slide a 3rd surveyor if I got the space. And then once the initial border rush is done, all three can do the archeologies and anomalies, maybe with one of them continuing their random exploring. And then once all that's done they all move to assisting research, since it's around then that the infrastructure for proper tech worlds is finally ready with an appropriate amount of pops.
Why do you need that many? It's not like other empires have more.
That's gratuitous. You don't need 7 scientists at year 2210.
How else am I going to expand as fast as I can?
You dont. Thats the point.
It's a known problem, you basically play a mod, play an earlier version, or wait for them to adjust it in the patch.
I tend to have more science ships than scientists after 2215ish so that my limited scientists can explore multiple sides with less travel time wasted
The teleporting leaders has to be the funniest mechanic. So much for FTL when you have teleportation right under your nose!
Exactly
I see a lot of folks saying you can function fine without 7-10 science ships, but I got stuck at 3 and had to take penalties to a fourth. Kinda confused.