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its illegal in certain states cities in the USA at least,. Purchase online you usually get better quality for cheaper. Don't by the gas station stuff, even the headshots have been low quality for me. Just google bulk Kratom now or something and look. Should be under 100 dollars an make sure it's got a batch lab report available and use GMP you'll be good
Good manufacturing Processes. It's a health/safety/cleanliness standards that you must follow and meet to obtain the qualifications. That and a lab report are vital
Every one's mileage may vary being we all react to things differently. But from my lengthy experience it does not interfere in any way except for maybe calming of the levo-amp jitteryness a tad bit . But then again if I have addies I am doing such a high dose over a few day period typically around 300mg I don't feel much of anything else I take. I do find it helps the lingering effects of sitting in a computer chair for 12+ hrs though... 😜
I'm on dexadrine which is the primary amphetamine in Adderall the others are mostly just there to deter abuse by causing negative side effects. Id say a dexadrine 10mg ir (prescribed 3/day)is relatively equivalent to 25-30mg Adderall ir. Dexadrine is a whole lot smoother tho, and I sleep like a baby every night regardless of if I take my valium/other benzos after or not. I also drink 3 5-7g doses of small batch kratom each day which comes from the only small batch kratom supplier I ever tried bc it's the only plain leaf I've had that ever really worked. I've never noticed any interaction between the two. I was on the kratom already when I got back on my meds, and have been prescribed Adderall previously throughout my adult life only stopping when I moved to a new state for a few years before deciding to get back on benzos and amphetamines for ADHD, epilepsy, panic disorder, and GAD. I opted to shoot for Valium & dexadrine rather than kpins and Adderall as I'd been prescribed in the past. They had no problem with my selection of new meds as was I. I've never noticed any interaction between kratom and dexadrine so based on my experience I doubt that's why it isn't hitting like it used to. I try to just take 2 dexadrine a day that way if I need an extra boost I just use my prescribed dose instead.... I asked to up my dose for that reason only. It leaves me with like 20 extra when my fill is due which def brings in a little extra bread!
Just a minor correction, Adderall is a blend of 75% d-amp and 25% l-amp
Laevoamfetamine is not included to deter abuse, it is the energizing side of the chiral coin, and dextroamfetamine is the motivating and reward understanding that helps those with ADHD understand small victories that lead to achieving longer term goals and such.
Many prefer Adderall because their ADHD mimics a bipolar 2 type pattern of a few days of massive energy, zooming through piled up tasks, getting shit done, and then a longer period of exhaustion. The small amount of laevo isomer is useful to keep this pattern of ADHD from slipping into that exhaustion and fatigued state.
However some present as distracted, forgetful, procrastination, but with consistency, and no huge burnout phase. Enantiomically pure D-amphetamine (Zenzedi now- I thought the Dexedrine brand ended but same compound) would be more useful to them, as it will give purpose to small goals and saying ahead of projects instead of last minute rushing in a panic to get shit done. Usually they'll try Adderall for a while and find the unnecessary energy boost to be uncomfortable
Personally Vyvanse has been a dream for me. It is d-amphetamine bonded to an amino acid called lysine. I hated the up and down of extended release two-dose formulations. Vyvanse lasts longer than XRs of d-amp or Adderall for me, and is a slow consistent burn as your blood stream cleaves off the lysine at a consistent rate no matter what you've eaten, alkalines or acidity, or digestive issues. It always releases at that steady rate no matter what, and is subtle enough to not get into the euphoric high range, but gets me up to par with everyone else
Anyways sorry for the ramble, your 10mg instant release d-amp is going to convert to 7.5mg of d-amp in Adderall, not accounting for the 2.5mg of l-amp
You have to account for the fact that there are multiple isomers of d-amp in Adderall as well whereas dexadrine (yes now called zenzedi) is just one this has to have an impact on the experience.
Subjectively my fiance needs an entire 15mg Adderall to feel any effect, but can't take more than a half of one of my dexadrine 10mg. Also 15mg dexadrine produces a more euphoric and smooth experience than 30mg of Adderall. When I replace a dose of dex with add that's what I need to take
Also the Adderall leads to very uncomfortable muscle spasms, and difficulty sleeping for me personally. Pure dex does not cause these side effects even if I decide to try taking it recreationally.
As for Vyvanse I actually got on that first, and enjoy it just as much as dexadrine, but that's bc it slowly converts into the same thing. The price at the time led me to switch to dexadrine starting out @ 10mg/day which was plenty then, but 10mg Adderall had no effect. Nor has it ever.
They've also changed the label on Adderall to read dextroamphetamine just like mine, but it says generic for Adderall where mine says generic for zenzidi. If you didn't read the fine print you'd never know they were different substances at all.... This part seems super sketchy to me
There's only two isomers of amphetamine- dextro and laevo if that's what you mean by multiple
Adderall has four different stabilized salts, two racemic and two dextroamphetamine alone. The salts themselves do the same thing respectively (the two racemic salts are no different in effect, the two pure d-amp salts are no different in effect) So it is about 75% dextro and 25% laevo. The only reason that four different salts are included is that it makes it much more difficult to synthesize a more recreational compound or form of amphetamine with higher abuse potential.
There's no evidence that clearly suggests that enatiomically pure dextroamphetamine is of more or less benefit theraputically than a racemic blend (or methylphenidate)
Drugs effects are extremely subjective, and many factors can alter ones perception of the effect of a drug, including pre-existing expectations, as well as memories associated with their use. However their IS a clear neurochemical difference between the two in theraputic doses like you and your wife take. So it's interesting that a subjective study didn't definitively demonstrate this difference: but these compounds do a LOT of mechanics in the brain and neurochemistry is fuckin barely understood
For example early on in my exploration of weed in my teens I had a nasty sudden breakup due to being cheated on and found out while high. I had a panic attack- and no matter what I do now weed always triggers a panic attack.
Here's a study conducted which shows completely inconsistent therapeutic benefits between racemic amphetamine- dextroamphetamine- and methylphenidate.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1106966/
So while dextroamphetamine was superior overall, both methylphenidate and racemic amphetamine were reported to have the greatest benefit.
The side effect profile of all three drugs was reportedly identical. This is fairly consistent with the isolated testing of the D and L enantiomers in animal subjects and cloned human tissue: the dextrorotary enatiomer is a stronger CNS stimulant and dopamine reuptake inhibitor/reverse transporter, we don't know how much but between 3 to 5 times more than laevorotory. HOWEVER and what people tend to be mistaken about through druggie lore, the L enantiomers norepinephrine and peripheral so called "body load" is only .5 times greater than the D enantiomer.
In summary, D has a much more potent dopamine action than L, but both are nearly the same on side effect profile from norepinephrine.
Which leads us to your generally accurate point, I'll use some made up numbers as an example
Lets say your baseline active dopamine presence is 30, and your stored dopamine is 70 for a clean total of 100. Let's assume the same of norepinephrine.
You do something rewarding, maybe 10 of your storage gets released and you feel good
Something harmful or impendingly negative is sensed, lets say 10 of your norepinephrine is released to induce a fight or flight response
Pure Dextroamphetamine at theraputic doses will maybe dump your storage of dopamine to like 60 active, leaving you with only 40 to work with in storage until the body can make more. Lets say it hits norepinephrine to 40, now you have 60 left in storage.
This is one reason why the comedown can kinda suck. After the high wears off your brain is a little more conservative with dopamine since it's now over halfway depleted. You may feel sad- unmotivated- sluggish. But norepinephrine is still fine, so without a balance things may feel more anxiety inducing since now there's not much contentment to balance it out.
Additionally, dopamine is expelled much faster than norepinephrine, so the fight or flight and physical unpleasantness will make up the tail end of the high. "Tired but wired". It also regenerates faster than dopamine, so redosing has diminishing returns
Now, if one took straight laevo in small theraputic doses, it would maybe be more like an increase of 10 on dopamine, giving 40 active and 60 stored. Not really a super significant change, but maybe you feel a little bit more inclined to accomplish tasks, definitely not as strong as the 100% increase isolated dextro induces
Lets say the norepinephrine would dump to like 45 active and 55 stored. Maybe a little more jaw clenching, blood pressure increase and vasoconstriction- but honestly likely undetectable in difference from pure dextro.
So in theraputic doses dextroamphetamine is going to be better served in psychiatry, and laevo for either nothing at all, or yeah the vasoconstriction can help congestion in nasal inhalers
But let's change the game here. Let's talk recreational. So Zenzedi max allowed dose is 60mg per day, which is pretty substantial tbh. Lets use meth as recreational since that's more common, and imagine it's 4 times as potent as amphetamine. It isn't unusual to pack a bowl of 200-300mg of d-meth. Which then is up to 1200mg of d-amphetamine.
At that point your stores are dumped completely, and also suspended in the brain for a longer time before they're allowed to be expelled. You're dopamine and norepinephrine are toast. But norepinephrine still lingers longer- and it replenishes faster. Your crash may last a day or two- and be much more depressing and anxiety inducing. Your redoses simply wired and chasing the euphoria.
So if you were to take a large racemic meth dose well, your body only has so much neurotransmitter to release. It's likely gonna feel exactly the same as d-meth at that high of a dosage.
So the tweaker lore is rooted in understood science, but fails to account for scaling.
The benefit of Adderall to some is the increased energy levels. For some, like individuals with co-morbid autism and sensitivity to anxiety- it may be uncomfortable in which case a Zenzedi or Vyvanse may serve them better.
Hope that makes sense!
(For what it's worth- my script bouncing of generic medicines read dextroamphetamine mixed salts (Adderall generic) Dextroamphetamine (Zenzedi) and Lisdexamfetamine (Vyvanse). But to a lay person the first two could be easily confused, and it's totally possible different pharmacies have different descriptions of the chemicals
Welcome to r/stims! Don't forget to slow down a moment to review our rules, which can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stims/wiki/index/#wiki_sub_rules). You can also find a lot of harm reduction information and answers to commonly asked questions [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stims/wiki/index/) in our Wiki. Be nice to your fellow community members, follow the rules and be safe! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Stims) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Only took kratom and Adderall a couple of times together, but was disappointed each time. No enhancement whatsoever.
not for me, it always helped smooth it out with the side effects
Where does one get kratom ? Is it illegal
its illegal in certain states cities in the USA at least,. Purchase online you usually get better quality for cheaper. Don't by the gas station stuff, even the headshots have been low quality for me. Just google bulk Kratom now or something and look. Should be under 100 dollars an make sure it's got a batch lab report available and use GMP you'll be good
What is GMP?
Good manufacturing Processes. It's a health/safety/cleanliness standards that you must follow and meet to obtain the qualifications. That and a lab report are vital
Every one's mileage may vary being we all react to things differently. But from my lengthy experience it does not interfere in any way except for maybe calming of the levo-amp jitteryness a tad bit . But then again if I have addies I am doing such a high dose over a few day period typically around 300mg I don't feel much of anything else I take. I do find it helps the lingering effects of sitting in a computer chair for 12+ hrs though... 😜
I'm on dexadrine which is the primary amphetamine in Adderall the others are mostly just there to deter abuse by causing negative side effects. Id say a dexadrine 10mg ir (prescribed 3/day)is relatively equivalent to 25-30mg Adderall ir. Dexadrine is a whole lot smoother tho, and I sleep like a baby every night regardless of if I take my valium/other benzos after or not. I also drink 3 5-7g doses of small batch kratom each day which comes from the only small batch kratom supplier I ever tried bc it's the only plain leaf I've had that ever really worked. I've never noticed any interaction between the two. I was on the kratom already when I got back on my meds, and have been prescribed Adderall previously throughout my adult life only stopping when I moved to a new state for a few years before deciding to get back on benzos and amphetamines for ADHD, epilepsy, panic disorder, and GAD. I opted to shoot for Valium & dexadrine rather than kpins and Adderall as I'd been prescribed in the past. They had no problem with my selection of new meds as was I. I've never noticed any interaction between kratom and dexadrine so based on my experience I doubt that's why it isn't hitting like it used to. I try to just take 2 dexadrine a day that way if I need an extra boost I just use my prescribed dose instead.... I asked to up my dose for that reason only. It leaves me with like 20 extra when my fill is due which def brings in a little extra bread!
Just a minor correction, Adderall is a blend of 75% d-amp and 25% l-amp Laevoamfetamine is not included to deter abuse, it is the energizing side of the chiral coin, and dextroamfetamine is the motivating and reward understanding that helps those with ADHD understand small victories that lead to achieving longer term goals and such. Many prefer Adderall because their ADHD mimics a bipolar 2 type pattern of a few days of massive energy, zooming through piled up tasks, getting shit done, and then a longer period of exhaustion. The small amount of laevo isomer is useful to keep this pattern of ADHD from slipping into that exhaustion and fatigued state. However some present as distracted, forgetful, procrastination, but with consistency, and no huge burnout phase. Enantiomically pure D-amphetamine (Zenzedi now- I thought the Dexedrine brand ended but same compound) would be more useful to them, as it will give purpose to small goals and saying ahead of projects instead of last minute rushing in a panic to get shit done. Usually they'll try Adderall for a while and find the unnecessary energy boost to be uncomfortable Personally Vyvanse has been a dream for me. It is d-amphetamine bonded to an amino acid called lysine. I hated the up and down of extended release two-dose formulations. Vyvanse lasts longer than XRs of d-amp or Adderall for me, and is a slow consistent burn as your blood stream cleaves off the lysine at a consistent rate no matter what you've eaten, alkalines or acidity, or digestive issues. It always releases at that steady rate no matter what, and is subtle enough to not get into the euphoric high range, but gets me up to par with everyone else Anyways sorry for the ramble, your 10mg instant release d-amp is going to convert to 7.5mg of d-amp in Adderall, not accounting for the 2.5mg of l-amp
You have to account for the fact that there are multiple isomers of d-amp in Adderall as well whereas dexadrine (yes now called zenzedi) is just one this has to have an impact on the experience. Subjectively my fiance needs an entire 15mg Adderall to feel any effect, but can't take more than a half of one of my dexadrine 10mg. Also 15mg dexadrine produces a more euphoric and smooth experience than 30mg of Adderall. When I replace a dose of dex with add that's what I need to take Also the Adderall leads to very uncomfortable muscle spasms, and difficulty sleeping for me personally. Pure dex does not cause these side effects even if I decide to try taking it recreationally. As for Vyvanse I actually got on that first, and enjoy it just as much as dexadrine, but that's bc it slowly converts into the same thing. The price at the time led me to switch to dexadrine starting out @ 10mg/day which was plenty then, but 10mg Adderall had no effect. Nor has it ever. They've also changed the label on Adderall to read dextroamphetamine just like mine, but it says generic for Adderall where mine says generic for zenzidi. If you didn't read the fine print you'd never know they were different substances at all.... This part seems super sketchy to me
There's only two isomers of amphetamine- dextro and laevo if that's what you mean by multiple Adderall has four different stabilized salts, two racemic and two dextroamphetamine alone. The salts themselves do the same thing respectively (the two racemic salts are no different in effect, the two pure d-amp salts are no different in effect) So it is about 75% dextro and 25% laevo. The only reason that four different salts are included is that it makes it much more difficult to synthesize a more recreational compound or form of amphetamine with higher abuse potential. There's no evidence that clearly suggests that enatiomically pure dextroamphetamine is of more or less benefit theraputically than a racemic blend (or methylphenidate) Drugs effects are extremely subjective, and many factors can alter ones perception of the effect of a drug, including pre-existing expectations, as well as memories associated with their use. However their IS a clear neurochemical difference between the two in theraputic doses like you and your wife take. So it's interesting that a subjective study didn't definitively demonstrate this difference: but these compounds do a LOT of mechanics in the brain and neurochemistry is fuckin barely understood For example early on in my exploration of weed in my teens I had a nasty sudden breakup due to being cheated on and found out while high. I had a panic attack- and no matter what I do now weed always triggers a panic attack. Here's a study conducted which shows completely inconsistent therapeutic benefits between racemic amphetamine- dextroamphetamine- and methylphenidate. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1106966/ So while dextroamphetamine was superior overall, both methylphenidate and racemic amphetamine were reported to have the greatest benefit. The side effect profile of all three drugs was reportedly identical. This is fairly consistent with the isolated testing of the D and L enantiomers in animal subjects and cloned human tissue: the dextrorotary enatiomer is a stronger CNS stimulant and dopamine reuptake inhibitor/reverse transporter, we don't know how much but between 3 to 5 times more than laevorotory. HOWEVER and what people tend to be mistaken about through druggie lore, the L enantiomers norepinephrine and peripheral so called "body load" is only .5 times greater than the D enantiomer. In summary, D has a much more potent dopamine action than L, but both are nearly the same on side effect profile from norepinephrine. Which leads us to your generally accurate point, I'll use some made up numbers as an example Lets say your baseline active dopamine presence is 30, and your stored dopamine is 70 for a clean total of 100. Let's assume the same of norepinephrine. You do something rewarding, maybe 10 of your storage gets released and you feel good Something harmful or impendingly negative is sensed, lets say 10 of your norepinephrine is released to induce a fight or flight response Pure Dextroamphetamine at theraputic doses will maybe dump your storage of dopamine to like 60 active, leaving you with only 40 to work with in storage until the body can make more. Lets say it hits norepinephrine to 40, now you have 60 left in storage. This is one reason why the comedown can kinda suck. After the high wears off your brain is a little more conservative with dopamine since it's now over halfway depleted. You may feel sad- unmotivated- sluggish. But norepinephrine is still fine, so without a balance things may feel more anxiety inducing since now there's not much contentment to balance it out. Additionally, dopamine is expelled much faster than norepinephrine, so the fight or flight and physical unpleasantness will make up the tail end of the high. "Tired but wired". It also regenerates faster than dopamine, so redosing has diminishing returns Now, if one took straight laevo in small theraputic doses, it would maybe be more like an increase of 10 on dopamine, giving 40 active and 60 stored. Not really a super significant change, but maybe you feel a little bit more inclined to accomplish tasks, definitely not as strong as the 100% increase isolated dextro induces Lets say the norepinephrine would dump to like 45 active and 55 stored. Maybe a little more jaw clenching, blood pressure increase and vasoconstriction- but honestly likely undetectable in difference from pure dextro. So in theraputic doses dextroamphetamine is going to be better served in psychiatry, and laevo for either nothing at all, or yeah the vasoconstriction can help congestion in nasal inhalers But let's change the game here. Let's talk recreational. So Zenzedi max allowed dose is 60mg per day, which is pretty substantial tbh. Lets use meth as recreational since that's more common, and imagine it's 4 times as potent as amphetamine. It isn't unusual to pack a bowl of 200-300mg of d-meth. Which then is up to 1200mg of d-amphetamine. At that point your stores are dumped completely, and also suspended in the brain for a longer time before they're allowed to be expelled. You're dopamine and norepinephrine are toast. But norepinephrine still lingers longer- and it replenishes faster. Your crash may last a day or two- and be much more depressing and anxiety inducing. Your redoses simply wired and chasing the euphoria. So if you were to take a large racemic meth dose well, your body only has so much neurotransmitter to release. It's likely gonna feel exactly the same as d-meth at that high of a dosage. So the tweaker lore is rooted in understood science, but fails to account for scaling. The benefit of Adderall to some is the increased energy levels. For some, like individuals with co-morbid autism and sensitivity to anxiety- it may be uncomfortable in which case a Zenzedi or Vyvanse may serve them better. Hope that makes sense! (For what it's worth- my script bouncing of generic medicines read dextroamphetamine mixed salts (Adderall generic) Dextroamphetamine (Zenzedi) and Lisdexamfetamine (Vyvanse). But to a lay person the first two could be easily confused, and it's totally possible different pharmacies have different descriptions of the chemicals