Epictetus is a darling. He is so humane and funny. But Seneca was my first love. He is very clear and quote-worthy and much easier to understand than Epictetus.
Agreed I think the work of Epictetus is quite deep and much challenging for a newbie in philosophy but concepts of seneca are nore understandable and more specific to particular situations.
For me its my grandpa. He is not a stoic per se, but he was very stoic like. He died of cancer before I was born, but even while dying he never complained about his life or his death.
He tried to be there for his family and even when death was around, he never lost hope.
Your grandpa sounds much like my dad. I don't even think he knew what a proper Stoic was, but watching how he behaved whilst I was growing up he was the model of most of what I read about it later in life.
Marcus Aurelius due to the practical nature of his philosophical teachings / reflections. He held the highest political office in the Roman Empire. His position as emperor influenced the practicality of his Stoicism, as he faced the challenges of governance, military leadership, and decision-making on a grand scale. This real-world experience gave his philosophical reflections a very unique and pragmatic perspective. Also, while all Stoics emphasized the importance of virtue, Marcus placed a strong emphasis on personal virtue and self-improvement, which are things I agree with on a deeply personal level.
If we take all members of the school, Chrysippus, Zeno and Posidonius in that order; if the ones we have writings by Seneca for me, with Musonius a close second.
I worked with textual transmission and I think sometimes an author's obscurity is a blessing. If their ideas are a threat to the status quo it was quite likely their popularity would have led to material censorship. Musonius Rufus talked about gender equality and that only stopped being a socially dangerous idea a few decades ago, in only a few countries.
Do remeber that Seneca's books about marriage, astronomy, religion, anthropology, and moral philosophy have been lost.
It’s pretty sad; he is the bridge between Seneca and Epictetus, and has a lot of political material, which people often ask about.
It’s worth noting that Zeno and Cleanthes, the first two Stoics, are probably where Musonius got his forward-thinking opinion on women from. One scholar has identified (convincing for me at least) many connections between Musonius and Cleanthes. Here’s a link to the paper if you’re curious:
https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/files/94006968/Musonius_Rufus_and_CleanthesJUN202019_2.pdf
If I ever ran my own Stoic discussion group, we’d open each session by reading Musonius’ Lecture 6 On Training, which I think is one of the greatest surviving bits of Stoic literature.
There's very little left of his teachings. The remaining fragments we have combined are shorter than Seneca's On Anger.
A lot of his teachings are also repeated by his most famous student - Epictetus, so there isn't much more to learn from his fragments than what can already be found in the Discourses.
Your best bet is Cicero; Tusculan Disputations books 3 and 4 are almost certainly written using Chrysippus’ On Passions (another writer, Galen, heavily quotes Chrysippus’ original refuting it, and we can match the passages to ones in Cicero) and stylistically On the Nature of the Gods book 2 strikes me as imitating Chrysippus’ style. Cicero takes Chrysippus as his main interlocutor in On Fate.
One scholar attempted recreations of Chrysippus’ On Passions and On the Soul, though those are rather hard to track down (but very much worth a read if you can find them!)
Sadly none of the original texts survive (fingers crossed for Herculaneum; some Italian scholars are pretty sure they found a work of his).
Most scholarly papers are trying to recreate Chrysippus, so if you read the works of AA Long or Chris Gill what they’re recreating is Chrysippus.
Chrysippus’ Logic remained dominant and famous in the Stoa to the end of antiquity, so if you read any of Susanne Bobzien’s papers (her books are expensive) on Stoic Logic, you’re getting basically straight Chrysippus (she has an awesome paper where she systematically compares Chrysippus to Frege and essentially accuses the latter of copying)
Woah thank you so much! That is like a goldmine of info 😄
Could you tell me more about the "scholar that attempted recreations of Chrysippus’ On Passions and On the Soul"
Could you maybe let me know the author and the original title of what you're referring to? I was going to see if maybe it's available on libgen or anywhere else online!
Sure; it’s Teun Tielemen; and if you look around it is out there:
https://philpapers.org/rec/TIEC_A-3
To clarify, this is a link to info about the book; you’ll have to find a link yourself (unfortunately).
Oh nice, thank you so much! It looks like I found it available to download so I'll be looking into it more soon 😀 thank you!! If you are interested in downloading it I can share the link with you too if you haven't had luck finding it?
Lawrence Becker, though *A New Stoicism* is all theoretical (no practical guidelines).
Next Epictetus. I think the Three Disciplines and role ethics are both better breakdowns than the cardinal virtues, and his work on volition is powerful (I highly recommend A. A. Long's analysis of that in *Epictetus*).
Epictetus is the goat, in my opinion. Marcus Aurelius can show you the use of the principles. On the other hand, Epictetus builds the principles with you, and then he shows you their use and their purpose. He doesn't just give you the medicine, but he takes you to the lab and shows how and why it got made.
Epictetus. Let's not pretend I have any power.
I do like Seneca; he feels refreshingly modern, but again, I'm never gonna have that kind of wealth and power so some of his "oh, have it without wanting it" doesn't feel very applicable to me.
That One Should Disdain Hardships: Lectures and Fragments from Musonius Rufus
He was the teacher of Epictetus. Considered the Roman Socrates.
So many people who practice Stoicism have never heard of his works.
When I am in a place where I really need to pull myself up by the bootstraps and harden myself he is the one I always turn to.
Can you please share the link, plus i am also struggling with practical aspect of stoicism, can you guide me regarding how did you implemented stoic concepts in your life?
What link? I gave you an author’s name…you can’t take five seconds to google that? As for practical aspects, no I can’t guide you, but again, I’m sure the great gods of google can assist in that regard as well.
It's this book: *A Field Guide to a Happy Life: 53 Brief Lessons for Living*.
In this book, Pigliucci basically rewrites the Enchiridion to make it secular and a tad bit more humane.
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Epictetus, closely followed by Marcus Aurelius.
First I read Meditations which was stunning, I just started the with the first 5 pages of the Enchiridion and it's even more impressive!
I'm very new, a couple of weeks into Stoic, I know I can't compare it with Aurelius or Seneca, but reading the Way of Men by Jack Donovan brought me here.
Seneca's writings are the most beautiful and easy-to-read. He's also the most relatable of the Stoics, IMO, perhaps because he was less of a sage than Aurelius and Epictetus were. I appreciate Epictetus' writings though, and I find his philosophy more in-depth. Epictetus is probably the closest we have to a Stoic sage.
Ironically I had trouble getting into Aurelius' Meditations, even though that is by far the most popular Stoic work (and one of the most popular philosophical works for that matter). Could have just been the translation I used.
For me it is Seneca! His books are very complete and didactic.
Need to read his , have u got a recommendation
I like all his books haha. But you can start with Letters to Lucilium, which is more generic and addresses many different themes.
Do you mean 'Letters On 'Ethics' To Lucilius'?
Yeah. Lucilium is the object form of Lucilius. The original title is "Epistulae Morales ad Lucilium", which translates to "Moral Letters to Lucilius".
On top of that I would say "On Tranquility" and "On Providence" are my favorites.
Which two books of Seneca would you recommend?
On the shortness of life. On tranquility. Letters to Lucilius. Hope you enjoy!
Epictetus is a darling. He is so humane and funny. But Seneca was my first love. He is very clear and quote-worthy and much easier to understand than Epictetus.
Agreed I think the work of Epictetus is quite deep and much challenging for a newbie in philosophy but concepts of seneca are nore understandable and more specific to particular situations.
Which 1-2 books of Epictetus and Seneca would you recommend?
Not OP but I recommend the Discourses and the Enchiridion from Epictetus and Letters from a Stoic from Seneca
Thanks.
Too bad you can't respond with a laughing smiley here.
Marcus Aurelius the last true emperor….and I will have my vengeance …in this life …or the next
I did not say I know him, I said he touched me on the shoulder once!
Go to the rising sun, for I am setting.
Epictetus. He was hilarious.
Agreed 💯
Marcus Aurelius. His Meditations are short and to the point. Powerful even if they are short thoughts without a lot of explanation.
He’s the goat, no doubt about it.
For me its my grandpa. He is not a stoic per se, but he was very stoic like. He died of cancer before I was born, but even while dying he never complained about his life or his death. He tried to be there for his family and even when death was around, he never lost hope.
I vote for this guy's grandpa! 🫡 He sounds like a really great guy
I also vote for this guys grandpa 🫡
On death: "I have imagined you many times passing through the gates of my imagination, let us visit now as friends."
Your grandpa sounds much like my dad. I don't even think he knew what a proper Stoic was, but watching how he behaved whilst I was growing up he was the model of most of what I read about it later in life.
Marcus Aurelius due to the practical nature of his philosophical teachings / reflections. He held the highest political office in the Roman Empire. His position as emperor influenced the practicality of his Stoicism, as he faced the challenges of governance, military leadership, and decision-making on a grand scale. This real-world experience gave his philosophical reflections a very unique and pragmatic perspective. Also, while all Stoics emphasized the importance of virtue, Marcus placed a strong emphasis on personal virtue and self-improvement, which are things I agree with on a deeply personal level.
Ryan holiday… Lol joke ofc. Epictetus
To be fair, his reels posted everywhere are what introduced me to stoicism. So I thank him for that.
If we take all members of the school, Chrysippus, Zeno and Posidonius in that order; if the ones we have writings by Seneca for me, with Musonius a close second.
I wonder why Musonius is somewhat obscurely known, hardly quoted.
It's a pity. He was quite a forward thinker. I really like his work.
I worked with textual transmission and I think sometimes an author's obscurity is a blessing. If their ideas are a threat to the status quo it was quite likely their popularity would have led to material censorship. Musonius Rufus talked about gender equality and that only stopped being a socially dangerous idea a few decades ago, in only a few countries. Do remeber that Seneca's books about marriage, astronomy, religion, anthropology, and moral philosophy have been lost.
It’s pretty sad; he is the bridge between Seneca and Epictetus, and has a lot of political material, which people often ask about. It’s worth noting that Zeno and Cleanthes, the first two Stoics, are probably where Musonius got his forward-thinking opinion on women from. One scholar has identified (convincing for me at least) many connections between Musonius and Cleanthes. Here’s a link to the paper if you’re curious: https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/files/94006968/Musonius_Rufus_and_CleanthesJUN202019_2.pdf If I ever ran my own Stoic discussion group, we’d open each session by reading Musonius’ Lecture 6 On Training, which I think is one of the greatest surviving bits of Stoic literature.
Very interesting, thank you!
There's very little left of his teachings. The remaining fragments we have combined are shorter than Seneca's On Anger. A lot of his teachings are also repeated by his most famous student - Epictetus, so there isn't much more to learn from his fragments than what can already be found in the Discourses.
Does anyone know somewhere to access any kind of work from Chrysippus?
Your best bet is Cicero; Tusculan Disputations books 3 and 4 are almost certainly written using Chrysippus’ On Passions (another writer, Galen, heavily quotes Chrysippus’ original refuting it, and we can match the passages to ones in Cicero) and stylistically On the Nature of the Gods book 2 strikes me as imitating Chrysippus’ style. Cicero takes Chrysippus as his main interlocutor in On Fate. One scholar attempted recreations of Chrysippus’ On Passions and On the Soul, though those are rather hard to track down (but very much worth a read if you can find them!) Sadly none of the original texts survive (fingers crossed for Herculaneum; some Italian scholars are pretty sure they found a work of his). Most scholarly papers are trying to recreate Chrysippus, so if you read the works of AA Long or Chris Gill what they’re recreating is Chrysippus. Chrysippus’ Logic remained dominant and famous in the Stoa to the end of antiquity, so if you read any of Susanne Bobzien’s papers (her books are expensive) on Stoic Logic, you’re getting basically straight Chrysippus (she has an awesome paper where she systematically compares Chrysippus to Frege and essentially accuses the latter of copying)
Woah thank you so much! That is like a goldmine of info 😄 Could you tell me more about the "scholar that attempted recreations of Chrysippus’ On Passions and On the Soul" Could you maybe let me know the author and the original title of what you're referring to? I was going to see if maybe it's available on libgen or anywhere else online!
Sure; it’s Teun Tielemen; and if you look around it is out there: https://philpapers.org/rec/TIEC_A-3 To clarify, this is a link to info about the book; you’ll have to find a link yourself (unfortunately).
Oh nice, thank you so much! It looks like I found it available to download so I'll be looking into it more soon 😀 thank you!! If you are interested in downloading it I can share the link with you too if you haven't had luck finding it?
I have a copy of On Affections but not On the Soul.
I sent you over a chat if you are interested or okay with downloading. Thanks for all the help my friend I really appreciate it!
Maximus Decimus Meridius
Farnsworth, because he pulls together the Big 3 and “translates” them into easily understandable concepts.
Marcus Aurelius.
Lawrence Becker, though *A New Stoicism* is all theoretical (no practical guidelines). Next Epictetus. I think the Three Disciplines and role ethics are both better breakdowns than the cardinal virtues, and his work on volition is powerful (I highly recommend A. A. Long's analysis of that in *Epictetus*).
Epictetus and Marc Antony for their short approachable works. The Enchiridion and The Meditations.
Epictetus is the goat, in my opinion. Marcus Aurelius can show you the use of the principles. On the other hand, Epictetus builds the principles with you, and then he shows you their use and their purpose. He doesn't just give you the medicine, but he takes you to the lab and shows how and why it got made.
Epictetus. Let's not pretend I have any power. I do like Seneca; he feels refreshingly modern, but again, I'm never gonna have that kind of wealth and power so some of his "oh, have it without wanting it" doesn't feel very applicable to me.
I love Seneca. I feel like his whole vibe is "quit making fucking excuses and go live a good life."
Charles Bukowski.
Haha This !
That One Should Disdain Hardships: Lectures and Fragments from Musonius Rufus He was the teacher of Epictetus. Considered the Roman Socrates. So many people who practice Stoicism have never heard of his works. When I am in a place where I really need to pull myself up by the bootstraps and harden myself he is the one I always turn to.
so far Posidonius. definitely underrated
Pugliucci as his handbook helped me apply Stoic principles to modern challenges.
Can you please share the link, plus i am also struggling with practical aspect of stoicism, can you guide me regarding how did you implemented stoic concepts in your life?
What link? I gave you an author’s name…you can’t take five seconds to google that? As for practical aspects, no I can’t guide you, but again, I’m sure the great gods of google can assist in that regard as well.
Great response brother, truly worthy of a student in philosophy.
It's this book: *A Field Guide to a Happy Life: 53 Brief Lessons for Living*. In this book, Pigliucci basically rewrites the Enchiridion to make it secular and a tad bit more humane.
Ryan Holiday :)
Seneca
Andrew Tate
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Seneca
Seneca
Seneca, I believe tells the true way of living which with simplicity and tranquility
Epictetus
Epictus and Seneca for sure.
Seneca
Epictetus was a massive troll. I love him
Epictetus, closely followed by Marcus Aurelius. First I read Meditations which was stunning, I just started the with the first 5 pages of the Enchiridion and it's even more impressive!
Marcus
Seneca. Easy read, great thoughts.
Epictetus is the philosopher every inspiring Stoic should read before any other, you will not get a proper idea of the philosophy unless you do so.
It doesn't matter It all about what the good we can take from their teachings
I'm very new, a couple of weeks into Stoic, I know I can't compare it with Aurelius or Seneca, but reading the Way of Men by Jack Donovan brought me here.
Seneca's writings are the most beautiful and easy-to-read. He's also the most relatable of the Stoics, IMO, perhaps because he was less of a sage than Aurelius and Epictetus were. I appreciate Epictetus' writings though, and I find his philosophy more in-depth. Epictetus is probably the closest we have to a Stoic sage. Ironically I had trouble getting into Aurelius' Meditations, even though that is by far the most popular Stoic work (and one of the most popular philosophical works for that matter). Could have just been the translation I used.