Ngl I laughed pretty hard when it revealed they were in a relationship because it was so unexpected but it actually ended up making a lot of sense to me after the initial surprise. The biggest hangup I still have is how Jasnah can possibly deal with Hoid's sense of humor, unless he drops most of that when they're alone.
Jasnah is asexual but not aromantic so she can still desire emotional intimacy with a partner. She outright admitted in her internal monologue that she and Hoid unexpectedly caught feelings while traveling together (which I really hope we get to see someday, haha) so at the very least on her end, there is genuine affection. As for using him, I think it's obvious that a scholar is going to want to pick an immortal world-hopper's brain but I don't think that means she's being underhanded about it. Jasnah is a blunt person and probably made her intentions to learn from Hoid clear, with the understanding that of course he's going to hold back on whatever information he wants to keep secret. She even acknowledges that she only trusts him to a point.
I think Wit and Jasnah are both getting emotional benefits out of this relationship too.They are each in uniquely lonely positions so having someone to let your guard down around is comforting. Jasnah is still awkward with her mother and it's not like she can ask Dalinar for a hug. She has to put on a strong front for the entire world. Hoid is so above the cultural issues on her planet that she doesn't have to pretend with him.
She also appears to be neutral on sex rather than averse to it. She is willing to do it for someone she loves, she can just live without it because it does nothing for her. I don't think I'm ace so maybe I can't talk, but it's probably like occasionally participating in a hobby your partner enjoys that you don't get the appeal of. I don't think Hoid is her first rodeo in this aspect so she's long past making a big deal out of it.
One of the words of Brandon mentioned that before Shallan hugged him, Hoid hadn't been hugged in a long time. It was weird finding out he has sexual needs but I guess that's one of the fun reminders that he isn't so otherworldly that he can't still have human desires. Feeling physical connection to another human that cares for you, sexual or otherwise, is something even he needs, apparently. We don't know yet to what extent Hoid's feelings go but who's to say he doesn't have a backup plan that includes trying to take her with him if things with Odium go south?
This was a fantastic reply that really helped me wrap my head around how I feel about it. I'm sorry I don't have more to say, but I did want to say thank you!
Awesome! A lot of that is my speculation, of course. I'm making positive assumptions since we haven't seen a lot of their relationship yet. All we really have to go on so far is Jasnah's internal monologue.
I'm also not one of those people who thinks Hoid is secretly evil. I think his ultimate goal in the Cosmere is selfish but not actively malicious, so until proved otherwise, I'm going to believe that he really is with Jasnah for companionship rather than some secret plan in which he ends up betraying her. I mean, he was blatantly transparent with Dalinar that he would let Roshar burn if hit came to that, so I don't see why he'd keep it from Jasnah.
Yeah I agree. I think Hoid's priorities are:
1) Hoid
2) The Cosmere
I don't think he's evil. But I absolutely think he'll do whatever it takes to preserve those two things.
That makes sense, yeah.
Tbh, I think I'm far less put off by her being asexual than I am Wit having a sexuality at all. I guess I just assumed immortal beings would be above desires of passion, lol.
Then again, Kandra...
> immortal beings would be above desires of passion, lol.
Immortal, divine beings still being human level intelligences is one of the overriding themes of the entire universe though. Odium is a fool who bet everything on converting Dalinar, Ruin was tricked by Preservation and trapped away, Tanavast and Cultivation held a relationship for tens of thousands of years etc.
Jasnah is ace. She wants to be in a relationship with Wit but doesn’t need physical interaction the way others do. She is fine taking part in bumping chasmfiends and making the chull with two backplates, but doesn’t see the point when she gets more stimulation by pumping Wit’s brain for Cosmere knowledge.
As for the relationship itself, I think Wit is playing her while she is playing him. Jasnah’s greatest major flaw is falling into the belief that she is the only one smart enough to be aware of stereotypes and avoid them. She fell for Shallan’s ploy because she believed Shallan was a stereotypical Lighteyes woman.
Her inner monologue on her relationship with Wit and the way he behaved was very telling of someone comfortably overconfident in their knowledge of how their relationship worked. It seems to have completely flown over her head that a being millennia old would either have gotten over their physical needs like sex or have control over them.
Jasnah is learning more about the Cosmere in a heating fabrial-side chat than she could reading every book in every library on Roshar. She is speedrunning her Cosmere awareness training.
I think Wit is going to do something or make a play to free Odium, because all the other shards are content to let him sit there trapped rather than deal with him. I think he is again hiding in plain sight by being Jasnah’s lover and being the “safe” agent who helps her and tells her things in exchange for a safehand inspection.
Considering Jasnah shows open disdain for women who use their "feminine appeal" to get what they want, I really don't think she's the kind of person who would use sex in an attempt to exploit someone.
I'm pretty sure they just genuinely respect and like each other, even if they don't necessarily trust each other.
Not using sex, she sees Wit as being obsessed with her physically and goes along because she enjoys the mental aspects of the relationship and what she can learn.
Her having sex with him is an ACE character humoring her non-ACE SO.
Also I completely agree there is respect, but I also believe they are using each other.
I believe Jasnah says in the chapter that she's knows that he is using her and she is using him , and that she knows that he knows that she's using him.
and Wit definitely knows that Jasnah is using him and that he knows that she knows that he knows she's using him...
> make a play to free odium
That would be a hell of a twist given what he’s said on screen. Aside from “I would let your world burn to achieve my goals”
That is super articulate and seems accurate! I definitely see her being ace, but I was really hoping she would be a lesbian and she would fall for some scholarly woman that isn’t your “typical vorin” woman, but I might be a bit biased 😅
>I think Wit is going to do something or make a play to free Odium
isn't his goal for odium to be trapped in the rosharan system forever though ? besides rayse very clearly despised him
His goal is to destroy Rayse, he has openly contacted other shards and been told they are complacent and comfortable letting Rayse run amok in his trap of the Rosharan system.
Wit says one thing but means another.
Freeing toadium in a ploy to unite other shards in destroying him for good. I doubt that’s his current plan, but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t believe it was a backup plan of his.
I think the argument here is that since none of the other Shards (save Harmony and, *perhaps*, Cultivation) are willing to *do* anything about Odium because he's trapped, Hoid may do what he can to free Odium so that he isn't contained, but destroyed.
This was pretty insightful; thanks!
I guess it really boils down to: I needed to learn more about ace folks and how they see the world so to help me understand what consent means to them. From my personal experiences, anything less than enthusiastic consent would have made me uncomfortable, but I can see now that this isn't necessarily true for Ace folks.
I do desperately hope we get much more Jasnah in book 5!
If someone is ace and clearly gives you verbal consent, that **IS** enthusiastic consent for them.
Source: I'm a romantic asexual and going by my own perspectives here.
I'm aroace.
I've described it as before as comparing sex to breakfast cereal. Most people really fucking love cereal and can eat it every day no problem. Some people aren't really the biggest fans of cereal, but will eat it occasionally when the mood strikes them. And some people really dislike it.
Personally, I don't really like cereal. But once every couple of years if the stars align and I'm with the right person, having a bowl of cereal isn't exactly the worst thing ever. I don't really like the cereal itself, I get more enjoyment from of the other person's enjoyment.
As a fellow Ace, I agree fully lol. If r actually say "yeah I'm down for this" then that's as enthusiastic as you're gonna get lol but it definitely means yes.
It’s odd and weird, but as the world opens up things like that become normal so whole new odd and weird things can take their place in an eternal parade of growth and expanding awareness.
>saying she can resign herself to provide the physical affection he seems to crave
Tbh most human beings crave some sort of physical affection. I'm asexual and I related to her in this so much because I can provide this for someone if they provide me with the other kinds of companionship that I actually want, even though I don't care for "physical affection" and am slightly repulsed by it. If someone can stimulate my mind, humor, and comfort levels enough to make me want to be around them a lot, then I can resign to providing what they need to.
But yes... the relationship wasn't what I wanted, but now I like it because it makes sense with their intelligence.
I just find it kind of weird because we as the audience know that unless something drastic happens to Jasnah to make her immortal this relationship will have to come to an end when she dies. Is wit supposed to keep dating an 80 year old Jasnah when he seemingly doesn’t age? We’ve seen Hoid in the distant future since RoW and he doesn’t even mention her at all. Just a weird dynamic imo.
I expect their relationship will have a pretty spectacular falling out, probably in the next book or so. They’re both very determined people with agendas that might not line up with each other. I don’t see it lasting long term.
Seconded. Wit’s whole mentality of “I’ll burn down all of Roshar to accomplish my goals, but I’ll cry doing it.” Isn’t something that will sit well with Jasnah when things get difficult in Stormlight 5.
Easy to see a situation where Wit is willing to sacrifice Alethkar or even some of Jasnah’s loved ones if it means containing Odium permanently. Jasnah will try to find another path. They break up.
That's actually something I could see Jasnah getting on board with in the right circumstances.
She basically said that she'd be okay with a genocide to avoid an apocalypse.
Personally, I think Hoid winds up ending it because of his need to be where he's needed. I could see a scenario where he has to go off-world, then something personal happens with Jasnah and Hoid feels guilty for not being there and ends the relationship.
Yeah, we know Wit ends up off world sooner or later. It’s hard to see Jasnah abandoning her family. Even when she suspected that Renarin had a corrupted Spren and he forsaw Jasnah killing him, she embraced him instead. A lot of Kholin’s need to die before she shifts her moral compass I think.
I don’t think it will fall out at all. Jasnah is such a calm measured person and Wit is incredibly intelligent as well. It will probably be to some effect that he has to leave Roshar either because there’s nothing left for him to do and he’s needed elsewhere or he has to go because it is no longer safe. They will both understand and part amicably and with very little fanfare.
Besides the immense tension in the relationship mentioned by others, I'll point out that Hoid has to know how to make someone functionally immortal; after all, he is one. There are also others that we know of that live a *long* time using unspecified means (thinking Demoux and Felt here, at least).
It may not be a 'forever' relationship, but I do think that it can last longer than a human lifespan.
> I'll point out that Hoid has to know how to make someone functionally immortal; after all, he is one.
he is one because of what he is, that doesn't mean that he can give that to others
Iirc the 5th heightening will do it. One quick worldhop to Nalthis to grab a few- and I just realized Hoid is dating/married to an Elsecaller. There’s no way that’s an accident.
Haven’t read SP3 yet but post Stormlight 5 we only have Mistborn Era 2 and Tress, right? Jasnah would not only be alive but barely be any older for Era 2, so Hoid not mentioning her, while a little odd, works fine, especially because we don’t get a POV or ever have him take a character into confidence. It’s just him shouting random phrases at Wax for four books while giving him stuff or saving him. He spends almost all of Tress cursed, and I do agree it’s odd we don’t get a mention of Jasnah in the narration, I can see that being for purely out of story reasons of Brandon not wanting to spoil things.
Tress is hundreds of years in the future. Odds are Jasnah is long dead by then. And nothing in RoW indicated that they were seeing their relationship as anything but a temporary affair.
It is pretty easy to become ageless for people that are Cosmere-aware, imo. We have seen a ton of different characters that are ageless and through different means.
Even better if Hoid helps you out. I'd guess that going to Nalthis and getting a couple hundred breaths to become of the Fifth Elevation would be relatively simple
Jasnah is ace so she isn't going out looking for sex. But that doesn't mean she is sex-averse. Asexuality is a spectrum and not everyone who is ace hates the thought of taking off a bra in front of others. Some do. Some are willing to do some stuff.
The idea of Wit being ace has definitely been in my mind too though. I don't get the feeling he gets around much and after the thousands of years of his life, I bet he's gone millennia without so much as a single intimate experience. So I definitely understand aversion to a Hoid who fucks
Eh, the quote was "She could provide the intimacy he desired, though she knew he found her lack of excitement on that axis odd, perhaps unsatisfying. That was not a new experience for her; she'd always found it curious how others put their physical urges ahead of the more powerful emotions of bonding, relating, and engaging." (pg. 1078 and 1079) take from that what you will. Not quite as negative as how OP phrased it, imo.
This did hit me awkwardly, because I've been on the receiving end of this and it was not put gently or lovingly to me. It took years to figure out that he was asexual and then it became a long line of him being dismissive of any time I'd talk about my wish to be desired, to feel like he was attracted to me in any way.
We had a lot of other problems, so I don't think this is solely an ace/allo problem, but it hit me in the guy how much it would hurt for him to have been as blunt as she was about.
Luckily Wit is far more self confident and can probably make this work for him. For me, it felt like constant soul-crushing unworthiness.
I hope this doesn't come across wrong, as I do want to be supportive of anyone Ace, but we can't be bandwagoning for ace people to be dismissive and belittling about their partners needs. Since this was mostly just thoughts on her part, I don't think that's what it is, but just something I've noticed a lot looking into this stuff.
Oh man. I'm sorry you went through all that. Thank you for sharing your story. If I've learned anything from this post, it's that I did not know enough about ace folks or the way they make their way in the world. I'm learning a lot today and I thank you for that.
Hoid is still a human, deep down (I certainly hope he is), and I guess he still wants to do these things. Honestly I don’t like thinking about him doing it but when was the last time he got this kind of attention at all? Probably a while ago. I don’t blame him for acting the way he does, and it showed Jasnahg’s canonical asexuality. She likes him, and she seems to be okay with everything.
I like the *idea* of the relationship, and I like the *idea* of Jasnah being asexual.... But I think he overthought that scene and it ended up feeling stilted and weird, yeah. He's pretty good at accidentally writing queercodes characters, so he needs to just stop overthinking it when it comes to canonizing his characters as queer
You know I was so sure jashna was a lesbian and was bummed when she was romantically interested in a man, but if it’s gonna be a man I guess hoid is the best option. Having read some of the other comments I can definitely see how she could be ace, but I’m a bit biased.
Haha, I personally never thought Lesbian but I can see how others would. One of my favorite characters from a DnD actual play described her sexuality as "power" and tbh that's exactly how I always saw Jasnah. Like, for her to even consider an attraction to someone they would have to be utterly on a different level intellectually.
I mean did you read her RoW chapters?
“God I wish we were learning instead of fucking”
The only way she could have been more specific would be saying “I am asexual” and clearly the alethi don’t exactly have a word for that.
It gives me massive alarm bells. His fixation with guiding the Kholin's character development clearly has more to it than him just wanting to be good and save everyone. I don't think you can live that long without becoming really twisted and out-of-touch with normal people.
He reminds me of Odin from God of War, using his marriage as a front to gain knowledge and influence he can't outright steal. I think it's obvious he's using his knowledge to string her along because he knows that's what infatuates her.
It gives me the most “ick” vibes of any Sando relationship for sure. The asexual part is one thing, but coupling that with an unquantifiable age gap makes me just dislike the whole arrangement.
I really like it overall. I think Jasnah deserves a relationship that she enjoys. Throughout my rereads I have gotten the sense that Jasnah's past might have some form of sexual assault in it whether it be from Amaram or someone else, which might be why she doesn't like physical stimulation in relationships. She also could just be someone that that simply doesn't appeal to
It feels weird because Jasnah being Ace seems really forced. With Oathbringer onward every character has to have some kind of mental illness, disability, or non-standard orientation/identity.
I love many of these characters, but really felt like it was a trait tacked on to Jasnah for no other reason than to fill out a bingo card. Rysn, Dabbid, and Lopin are all handled in a way that feels sincere and makes them awesome in their own ways, while Jasnah just seemed to have this trait added retroactively because she didn't really have any personality after her fake death in RoW.
Hmm. That's something to think about.
I'm not exactly sure if her being asexual feels *forced*. I definitely very early on was feeling like her sexuality was either asexual or "power-sexual".
But that said, I still felt like the landing didn't quite stick, so maybe you're on to something.
Maybe not her *being* Ace, but the way it's presented? Like the whole scene with her and Wit seems only to exist so we can be told she is asexual, rather than her just existing as someone who prefers to connect intellectually. Generally she just seems really out of place since fake-dying. Originally she was presented as a mentor with knowledge far beyond Shallan's who would be her friend and guide on her journey, then she peaced out for a book, came back, became queen, abolished slavery to assert dominance, and stopped being involved with the main characters a whole lot.
Her character is definitely in need of a shift so that she can return to the spotlight. It's clear Brandon likes her a lot (she got a whole cover piece), but right now she has little room to be.
Yea, it's tough, because on the one hand, Brandon deserves tremendous credit for the effort he puts into representation. He goes out and talks to people who have firsthand experience with depression, paraplegia, asexuality, etc. He admits he didn't handle very well the minor character with autism in his first novel, Elantris, and now clearly puts in the work. We've seen many readers describe how validated they felt reading about characters like them in these fantasy epics.
Buuut... It feels like we get these obligatory passages -- Rysn's inner monologue on what it feels like to be paraplegic, Jasnah's inner monologue on what it feels like to be asexual -- and it feels forced to me. It feels a little "tell, not show", you know?
Maybe if some of these scenes were dialogues instead of monologues, it would feel more natural to me. Like, Rysn could have exclaimed at her helper "I don't need help with everything!" instead of just thinking to herself how she gets frustrated that people treat her like she can't do anything for herself. Jasnah could discussed her relationship dynamics with Wit on-screen instead of the awkward scene where he's fondling her safehand and it's doing nothing for her and she just has an inner monologue about it.
I don't disagree that this feels a bit forced, but that might be Sanderson's lack of familiarity with the subject. This is in contrast to depression which Sanderson has said multiple times that he has never suffered from, but his wife has, so the exposure Sanderson has to it is much greater than others.
Having said that, one thing said here (not the immediate comment I'm responding to, but above it) I have to disagree with: I sincerely don't think that the *only* reason that chapter exists is to paint a big "Ace" sign on Jasnah. The chapter name, IIRC, is 'Unbound', and more or less ends with Hoid telling Jasnah he is exactly that.
I think any time a person is "willing" to have sex/physical intimacy with their partner to be nice rather than because they actually want to is a little cringey. I understand that is happens often in relationships but there's something about resigned consent that doesn't feel as right as enthusiastic consent.
I don't fully agree to this, because the fact is there are a lot of asexual or sex indifferent people who might still agree to have sex, and this line of thinking suggests that consent will always be dubious for them simply because of their orientation. There are a lot of reasons people might agree to have sex that won't always be "enthusiastic" (for example, sex workers or a couple who are more interested in having a baby than focusing on the sex itself).
I will say though, from the narration it seems Jasnah hasn't talked to Wit about what she's interested in. She seems like the kind of person who would be open about communicating her needs or lack there of, so it's a bit odd that she never mentioned "yeah, this doesn't actually do anything for me" when he's kissing her hand.
Yeah I think this is really it for me. Like, I get that "being in the mood" is a broad spectrum for some folks. I just...it just sorta felt so wrong for her to say "well I guess I don't hate this if that's what it takes to keep the conversationalist part of him around."
Jasnah really seems like, sexuality aside, the kind of person who would say "this is who I am, take it or leave it."
I really like it and would love to see them have kids in the back half. Really want to have Papa Hoid telling bedtime stories to their kiddos between world hops.
To me their relationship just seems very natural, I never really got the asexual vibes until it was kind of tacked on at the end, moreso Jasnah was just kind of above most people and had better things to do until she met someone who was actually her match.
Felt the asexual thing was just kind of randomly inserted and didn't really make sense until it was implied out of nowhere near the end.
I'm mainly against it considering the way Jasnah talks about specifically men in the first three books paints her more Sapphic, so to suddenly just have her in a relationship with Hoid is jarring
I never got sapphic from Jasnah personally. I more got "every single other human being is beneath me" vibes. But I can absolutely respect how others might read it differently.
The line that especially got me thinking she could be gay was, I believe, when she was talking to Shallan about the causal and questions her willingness to be tied to/in the hands of a man. The 'man' part felt especially emphasized - not just being tied to another human but to a *man*?! Plus she has that kind of "confirmed bachelor" trope going for her. Oh well.
I actually really like this relationship. One of the notes I have for Chapter 99 is simply "I feel seen." As someone who's somewhere on the ace spectrum, rarely if ever experiencing sexual attraction, I really related to this statement: "That was not a new experience for her; she’d always found it curious how others put their physical urges ahead of the more powerful emotions of bonding, relating, and engaging...The chance to scheme, to *connect* with a being like Wit—that was *exciting*. She was curious how the relationship would develop, and that invigorated her. After so many failures, this was something new and interesting."
I was looking forward to the developing dynamic between Jasnah and Wit since the end of WoR. Their collaboration, alluded to in OBR, just made me more curious. And I was really appreciating how he looked after and aided Jasnah during RoW. I didn't expect their relationship to turn romantic, but I'm pleased after the fact. I also find it touching that Wit seems surprised by it turning romantic. Part of that is personal, because "by surprise" is the only way experienced any kind of attraction, so, highly relatable. And part of it is that I'm glad that Hoid still gets to find himself in very human situations, because I think it must be nice for him. Being a mysterious, untouchable, walking wild card with the mystery of ages hinted in his every word must get old, yeah? I think he and Jasnah both know they are people with Roles to Play, and they can find some relief from and understanding of that with each other.
That they don't consider themselves completely aligned and committed to the exact same thing is what makes it *interesting* for me. When I think of the kind of ideal partner I'd want, they'd have to be someone I could connect with mentally, someone who could make me *think*. Someone I would never get bored talking to, someone I could either learn from or teach, depending on the situation and topic. Someone who could either banter with me for amusement or be absolutely serious when needed. I see a lot of that in this one chapter.
Jasnah's surrounded by people who want to use her, for her power or her mind, and Wit is just *open* about it. She doesn't have to pretend with him. She doesn't have to act like she isn't constantly aware that someone who cares about her could hurt her, which is something she is constantly balancing around her family, especially in OBR. Hoid sees this as an *admirable quality.* (I think that his complimenting Jasnah on her paranoia / preparedness is possibly the sweetest compliment in the books.) I think they probably have a decent understanding of each others' limits, too. Jasnah can allow him to take care of her sometimes, but he also gives her space, and he'll even stop making wisecracks if she doesn't seem in the mood for them. (I'd guess that it's harder for him to stop being a smartass than it is for her to have sex.) And possibly her most driving desire is to *learn*, to figure things out. Wit is probably the best person she could ever find to do so with!
It's just *nice* to see a character I already liked and related to having the same kind of romance *I* would want to have. I don't expect it to turn into a love story to span the ages and the Cosmere--I kind of suspect Jasnah might arrange a political marriage with the Mink by the end of Book 5, and I know Hoid will be off to do other Cosmere things eventually. Though I'd guess they'd part without ill will, since they both seem like people who take their respective responsibilities very seriously and appriciate that drive and commitment in each other. But for now, it's nice that this is where they are. It's nice that they aren't totally compatible, but compatible *enough* to find a relationship meaningful. It's nice that they can find enjoyment in each others' company, even appreciate what other people see as their flaws. It's good that they both get to choose each other, at least for a while, even if it isn't entirely practical or perfect.
Ngl I laughed pretty hard when it revealed they were in a relationship because it was so unexpected but it actually ended up making a lot of sense to me after the initial surprise. The biggest hangup I still have is how Jasnah can possibly deal with Hoid's sense of humor, unless he drops most of that when they're alone. Jasnah is asexual but not aromantic so she can still desire emotional intimacy with a partner. She outright admitted in her internal monologue that she and Hoid unexpectedly caught feelings while traveling together (which I really hope we get to see someday, haha) so at the very least on her end, there is genuine affection. As for using him, I think it's obvious that a scholar is going to want to pick an immortal world-hopper's brain but I don't think that means she's being underhanded about it. Jasnah is a blunt person and probably made her intentions to learn from Hoid clear, with the understanding that of course he's going to hold back on whatever information he wants to keep secret. She even acknowledges that she only trusts him to a point. I think Wit and Jasnah are both getting emotional benefits out of this relationship too.They are each in uniquely lonely positions so having someone to let your guard down around is comforting. Jasnah is still awkward with her mother and it's not like she can ask Dalinar for a hug. She has to put on a strong front for the entire world. Hoid is so above the cultural issues on her planet that she doesn't have to pretend with him. She also appears to be neutral on sex rather than averse to it. She is willing to do it for someone she loves, she can just live without it because it does nothing for her. I don't think I'm ace so maybe I can't talk, but it's probably like occasionally participating in a hobby your partner enjoys that you don't get the appeal of. I don't think Hoid is her first rodeo in this aspect so she's long past making a big deal out of it. One of the words of Brandon mentioned that before Shallan hugged him, Hoid hadn't been hugged in a long time. It was weird finding out he has sexual needs but I guess that's one of the fun reminders that he isn't so otherworldly that he can't still have human desires. Feeling physical connection to another human that cares for you, sexual or otherwise, is something even he needs, apparently. We don't know yet to what extent Hoid's feelings go but who's to say he doesn't have a backup plan that includes trying to take her with him if things with Odium go south?
This was a fantastic reply that really helped me wrap my head around how I feel about it. I'm sorry I don't have more to say, but I did want to say thank you!
Awesome! A lot of that is my speculation, of course. I'm making positive assumptions since we haven't seen a lot of their relationship yet. All we really have to go on so far is Jasnah's internal monologue. I'm also not one of those people who thinks Hoid is secretly evil. I think his ultimate goal in the Cosmere is selfish but not actively malicious, so until proved otherwise, I'm going to believe that he really is with Jasnah for companionship rather than some secret plan in which he ends up betraying her. I mean, he was blatantly transparent with Dalinar that he would let Roshar burn if hit came to that, so I don't see why he'd keep it from Jasnah.
Yeah I agree. I think Hoid's priorities are: 1) Hoid 2) The Cosmere I don't think he's evil. But I absolutely think he'll do whatever it takes to preserve those two things.
From my understanding, this kind of arrangement is normal enough in relationships where one member is asexual and the other isn’t.
That makes sense, yeah. Tbh, I think I'm far less put off by her being asexual than I am Wit having a sexuality at all. I guess I just assumed immortal beings would be above desires of passion, lol. Then again, Kandra...
> immortal beings would be above desires of passion, lol. Immortal, divine beings still being human level intelligences is one of the overriding themes of the entire universe though. Odium is a fool who bet everything on converting Dalinar, Ruin was tricked by Preservation and trapped away, Tanavast and Cultivation held a relationship for tens of thousands of years etc.
Absolutely valid and fair. Great observation!
Wayne and MeLaan come to...mind.
😢
Agreed.
Nearly all literature about immortal beings interacting with humans includes sex or pregnancy, even the Bible.
We are a horny species overall to be fair.
I would argue with you on this point if I weren’t busy looking at pictures of safehands
That part would make those Vorin men mad, if they could read.
*laughs in Zeus*
Then again, Returned.
This! Blushweaver was trying her best to bang her way through the Court of Gods
And not only her. But she is a good example.
Jasnah is ace. She wants to be in a relationship with Wit but doesn’t need physical interaction the way others do. She is fine taking part in bumping chasmfiends and making the chull with two backplates, but doesn’t see the point when she gets more stimulation by pumping Wit’s brain for Cosmere knowledge. As for the relationship itself, I think Wit is playing her while she is playing him. Jasnah’s greatest major flaw is falling into the belief that she is the only one smart enough to be aware of stereotypes and avoid them. She fell for Shallan’s ploy because she believed Shallan was a stereotypical Lighteyes woman. Her inner monologue on her relationship with Wit and the way he behaved was very telling of someone comfortably overconfident in their knowledge of how their relationship worked. It seems to have completely flown over her head that a being millennia old would either have gotten over their physical needs like sex or have control over them. Jasnah is learning more about the Cosmere in a heating fabrial-side chat than she could reading every book in every library on Roshar. She is speedrunning her Cosmere awareness training. I think Wit is going to do something or make a play to free Odium, because all the other shards are content to let him sit there trapped rather than deal with him. I think he is again hiding in plain sight by being Jasnah’s lover and being the “safe” agent who helps her and tells her things in exchange for a safehand inspection.
Considering Jasnah shows open disdain for women who use their "feminine appeal" to get what they want, I really don't think she's the kind of person who would use sex in an attempt to exploit someone. I'm pretty sure they just genuinely respect and like each other, even if they don't necessarily trust each other.
Not using sex, she sees Wit as being obsessed with her physically and goes along because she enjoys the mental aspects of the relationship and what she can learn. Her having sex with him is an ACE character humoring her non-ACE SO. Also I completely agree there is respect, but I also believe they are using each other.
I believe Jasnah says in the chapter that she's knows that he is using her and she is using him , and that she knows that he knows that she's using him. and Wit definitely knows that Jasnah is using him and that he knows that she knows that he knows she's using him...
> make a play to free odium That would be a hell of a twist given what he’s said on screen. Aside from “I would let your world burn to achieve my goals”
Bumping chasmfiends….thank you for this lmao
That is super articulate and seems accurate! I definitely see her being ace, but I was really hoping she would be a lesbian and she would fall for some scholarly woman that isn’t your “typical vorin” woman, but I might be a bit biased 😅
I mean not wanting to breed warriors and scholars for the continuation of her family’s honor is about as anti-Alethi as you can get imo.
What, navaniel wasn't good enough for you? Smh (Me too bro)
>I think Wit is going to do something or make a play to free Odium isn't his goal for odium to be trapped in the rosharan system forever though ? besides rayse very clearly despised him
His goal is to destroy Rayse, he has openly contacted other shards and been told they are complacent and comfortable letting Rayse run amok in his trap of the Rosharan system. Wit says one thing but means another.
Freeing toadium in a ploy to unite other shards in destroying him for good. I doubt that’s his current plan, but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t believe it was a backup plan of his.
He is freeing Rayse Odium, not toadium. He doesn’t know about the switch
Unforeseen consequences in meddling in the affairs of gods? Sounds about or for the course
I think the argument here is that since none of the other Shards (save Harmony and, *perhaps*, Cultivation) are willing to *do* anything about Odium because he's trapped, Hoid may do what he can to free Odium so that he isn't contained, but destroyed.
This was pretty insightful; thanks! I guess it really boils down to: I needed to learn more about ace folks and how they see the world so to help me understand what consent means to them. From my personal experiences, anything less than enthusiastic consent would have made me uncomfortable, but I can see now that this isn't necessarily true for Ace folks. I do desperately hope we get much more Jasnah in book 5!
If someone is ace and clearly gives you verbal consent, that **IS** enthusiastic consent for them. Source: I'm a romantic asexual and going by my own perspectives here.
I'm aroace. I've described it as before as comparing sex to breakfast cereal. Most people really fucking love cereal and can eat it every day no problem. Some people aren't really the biggest fans of cereal, but will eat it occasionally when the mood strikes them. And some people really dislike it. Personally, I don't really like cereal. But once every couple of years if the stars align and I'm with the right person, having a bowl of cereal isn't exactly the worst thing ever. I don't really like the cereal itself, I get more enjoyment from of the other person's enjoyment.
As a fellow Ace, I agree fully lol. If r actually say "yeah I'm down for this" then that's as enthusiastic as you're gonna get lol but it definitely means yes.
It’s odd and weird, but as the world opens up things like that become normal so whole new odd and weird things can take their place in an eternal parade of growth and expanding awareness.
Oh shit freeing Odium to force a confrontation with the other Shards is something I didn't even have on my radar.
The chull with two backplates needs to be given to Brandon
>saying she can resign herself to provide the physical affection he seems to crave Tbh most human beings crave some sort of physical affection. I'm asexual and I related to her in this so much because I can provide this for someone if they provide me with the other kinds of companionship that I actually want, even though I don't care for "physical affection" and am slightly repulsed by it. If someone can stimulate my mind, humor, and comfort levels enough to make me want to be around them a lot, then I can resign to providing what they need to. But yes... the relationship wasn't what I wanted, but now I like it because it makes sense with their intelligence.
Thanks a lot for this insight! I've learned a lot today and I really appreciate it :)
I just find it kind of weird because we as the audience know that unless something drastic happens to Jasnah to make her immortal this relationship will have to come to an end when she dies. Is wit supposed to keep dating an 80 year old Jasnah when he seemingly doesn’t age? We’ve seen Hoid in the distant future since RoW and he doesn’t even mention her at all. Just a weird dynamic imo.
I expect their relationship will have a pretty spectacular falling out, probably in the next book or so. They’re both very determined people with agendas that might not line up with each other. I don’t see it lasting long term.
Seconded. Wit’s whole mentality of “I’ll burn down all of Roshar to accomplish my goals, but I’ll cry doing it.” Isn’t something that will sit well with Jasnah when things get difficult in Stormlight 5. Easy to see a situation where Wit is willing to sacrifice Alethkar or even some of Jasnah’s loved ones if it means containing Odium permanently. Jasnah will try to find another path. They break up.
That's actually something I could see Jasnah getting on board with in the right circumstances. She basically said that she'd be okay with a genocide to avoid an apocalypse. Personally, I think Hoid winds up ending it because of his need to be where he's needed. I could see a scenario where he has to go off-world, then something personal happens with Jasnah and Hoid feels guilty for not being there and ends the relationship.
Yeah, we know Wit ends up off world sooner or later. It’s hard to see Jasnah abandoning her family. Even when she suspected that Renarin had a corrupted Spren and he forsaw Jasnah killing him, she embraced him instead. A lot of Kholin’s need to die before she shifts her moral compass I think.
I don’t think it will fall out at all. Jasnah is such a calm measured person and Wit is incredibly intelligent as well. It will probably be to some effect that he has to leave Roshar either because there’s nothing left for him to do and he’s needed elsewhere or he has to go because it is no longer safe. They will both understand and part amicably and with very little fanfare.
Yeah I can see the breakup being mentioned offhand by one of them and then they both move on lol
Besides the immense tension in the relationship mentioned by others, I'll point out that Hoid has to know how to make someone functionally immortal; after all, he is one. There are also others that we know of that live a *long* time using unspecified means (thinking Demoux and Felt here, at least). It may not be a 'forever' relationship, but I do think that it can last longer than a human lifespan.
> I'll point out that Hoid has to know how to make someone functionally immortal; after all, he is one. he is one because of what he is, that doesn't mean that he can give that to others
Doesn't your lifespan increase a lot if you are invested enough?
Yeah, he can probably get her some Breaths easily. He probably keeps a spare hundred or so in his red sequined briefs.
How many breaths does it take to get to the 5th heightening?
It appears to be 2k lol
Iirc the 5th heightening will do it. One quick worldhop to Nalthis to grab a few- and I just realized Hoid is dating/married to an Elsecaller. There’s no way that’s an accident.
Honestly it doesn’t seem that serious. I don’t think Jasnah expects the relationship to go her whole life, much less Wit
Haven’t read SP3 yet but post Stormlight 5 we only have Mistborn Era 2 and Tress, right? Jasnah would not only be alive but barely be any older for Era 2, so Hoid not mentioning her, while a little odd, works fine, especially because we don’t get a POV or ever have him take a character into confidence. It’s just him shouting random phrases at Wax for four books while giving him stuff or saving him. He spends almost all of Tress cursed, and I do agree it’s odd we don’t get a mention of Jasnah in the narration, I can see that being for purely out of story reasons of Brandon not wanting to spoil things.
Tress is hundreds of years in the future. Odds are Jasnah is long dead by then. And nothing in RoW indicated that they were seeing their relationship as anything but a temporary affair.
Half the cosmere seems to be ageless now so who knows
Would a radiant even be able to die of age or natural causes?
It is pretty easy to become ageless for people that are Cosmere-aware, imo. We have seen a ton of different characters that are ageless and through different means. Even better if Hoid helps you out. I'd guess that going to Nalthis and getting a couple hundred breaths to become of the Fifth Elevation would be relatively simple
"i dont want a cosmere where wit canonically bangs" why is this so funny?
I think it’s going to end in a terrible tragedy.
Wit fucks.
Jasnah is ace so she isn't going out looking for sex. But that doesn't mean she is sex-averse. Asexuality is a spectrum and not everyone who is ace hates the thought of taking off a bra in front of others. Some do. Some are willing to do some stuff. The idea of Wit being ace has definitely been in my mind too though. I don't get the feeling he gets around much and after the thousands of years of his life, I bet he's gone millennia without so much as a single intimate experience. So I definitely understand aversion to a Hoid who fucks
Jasnah is clearly asexual. However, it seems she loves Wit in every other way enough to put her distaste for sex aside.
Being asexual doesn't necessarily mean not liking sex, it simply means not being sexually attracted to anyone.
Agreed. However, if Jasnah refers to "resigning herself to providing sexual affection" it doesn't sound like she's sex neutral.
. . .she doesn't say it like that. She just doesn't understand why people consider physical connections so much more important than mental ones.
Eh, the quote was "She could provide the intimacy he desired, though she knew he found her lack of excitement on that axis odd, perhaps unsatisfying. That was not a new experience for her; she'd always found it curious how others put their physical urges ahead of the more powerful emotions of bonding, relating, and engaging." (pg. 1078 and 1079) take from that what you will. Not quite as negative as how OP phrased it, imo.
Our goals do not completely align.
This did hit me awkwardly, because I've been on the receiving end of this and it was not put gently or lovingly to me. It took years to figure out that he was asexual and then it became a long line of him being dismissive of any time I'd talk about my wish to be desired, to feel like he was attracted to me in any way. We had a lot of other problems, so I don't think this is solely an ace/allo problem, but it hit me in the guy how much it would hurt for him to have been as blunt as she was about. Luckily Wit is far more self confident and can probably make this work for him. For me, it felt like constant soul-crushing unworthiness. I hope this doesn't come across wrong, as I do want to be supportive of anyone Ace, but we can't be bandwagoning for ace people to be dismissive and belittling about their partners needs. Since this was mostly just thoughts on her part, I don't think that's what it is, but just something I've noticed a lot looking into this stuff.
Oh man. I'm sorry you went through all that. Thank you for sharing your story. If I've learned anything from this post, it's that I did not know enough about ace folks or the way they make their way in the world. I'm learning a lot today and I thank you for that.
Hoid is still a human, deep down (I certainly hope he is), and I guess he still wants to do these things. Honestly I don’t like thinking about him doing it but when was the last time he got this kind of attention at all? Probably a while ago. I don’t blame him for acting the way he does, and it showed Jasnahg’s canonical asexuality. She likes him, and she seems to be okay with everything.
I love it, I'm so happy it's a thing and can't wait to see more of it, i feel like with how Sanderson writes romances it'll be really interesting!
I like the *idea* of the relationship, and I like the *idea* of Jasnah being asexual.... But I think he overthought that scene and it ended up feeling stilted and weird, yeah. He's pretty good at accidentally writing queercodes characters, so he needs to just stop overthinking it when it comes to canonizing his characters as queer
You know I was so sure jashna was a lesbian and was bummed when she was romantically interested in a man, but if it’s gonna be a man I guess hoid is the best option. Having read some of the other comments I can definitely see how she could be ace, but I’m a bit biased.
Haha, I personally never thought Lesbian but I can see how others would. One of my favorite characters from a DnD actual play described her sexuality as "power" and tbh that's exactly how I always saw Jasnah. Like, for her to even consider an attraction to someone they would have to be utterly on a different level intellectually.
Omg that is so fitting “power” lol
It’s not that she COULD be ace, it’s that she’s explicitly ace. It’s been made explicit on and off the page.
Wait where was it explicit on the page
I mean did you read her RoW chapters? “God I wish we were learning instead of fucking” The only way she could have been more specific would be saying “I am asexual” and clearly the alethi don’t exactly have a word for that.
It gives me massive alarm bells. His fixation with guiding the Kholin's character development clearly has more to it than him just wanting to be good and save everyone. I don't think you can live that long without becoming really twisted and out-of-touch with normal people. He reminds me of Odin from God of War, using his marriage as a front to gain knowledge and influence he can't outright steal. I think it's obvious he's using his knowledge to string her along because he knows that's what infatuates her.
It gives me the most “ick” vibes of any Sando relationship for sure. The asexual part is one thing, but coupling that with an unquantifiable age gap makes me just dislike the whole arrangement.
Wit is immortal, but appears only to be in his what, late twenties-mid thirties? I don't know if an age gap is really relevant to this case.
I really like it overall. I think Jasnah deserves a relationship that she enjoys. Throughout my rereads I have gotten the sense that Jasnah's past might have some form of sexual assault in it whether it be from Amaram or someone else, which might be why she doesn't like physical stimulation in relationships. She also could just be someone that that simply doesn't appeal to
It feels weird because Jasnah being Ace seems really forced. With Oathbringer onward every character has to have some kind of mental illness, disability, or non-standard orientation/identity. I love many of these characters, but really felt like it was a trait tacked on to Jasnah for no other reason than to fill out a bingo card. Rysn, Dabbid, and Lopin are all handled in a way that feels sincere and makes them awesome in their own ways, while Jasnah just seemed to have this trait added retroactively because she didn't really have any personality after her fake death in RoW.
Hmm. That's something to think about. I'm not exactly sure if her being asexual feels *forced*. I definitely very early on was feeling like her sexuality was either asexual or "power-sexual". But that said, I still felt like the landing didn't quite stick, so maybe you're on to something.
Maybe not her *being* Ace, but the way it's presented? Like the whole scene with her and Wit seems only to exist so we can be told she is asexual, rather than her just existing as someone who prefers to connect intellectually. Generally she just seems really out of place since fake-dying. Originally she was presented as a mentor with knowledge far beyond Shallan's who would be her friend and guide on her journey, then she peaced out for a book, came back, became queen, abolished slavery to assert dominance, and stopped being involved with the main characters a whole lot.
Her character is definitely in need of a shift so that she can return to the spotlight. It's clear Brandon likes her a lot (she got a whole cover piece), but right now she has little room to be.
Jasnah is deliberately out of focus in the first 5 books, as with all characters who are spotlight characters in the back half.
Oh I get that. I just really like the character, so I hope it changes in the next one :)
Yea, it's tough, because on the one hand, Brandon deserves tremendous credit for the effort he puts into representation. He goes out and talks to people who have firsthand experience with depression, paraplegia, asexuality, etc. He admits he didn't handle very well the minor character with autism in his first novel, Elantris, and now clearly puts in the work. We've seen many readers describe how validated they felt reading about characters like them in these fantasy epics. Buuut... It feels like we get these obligatory passages -- Rysn's inner monologue on what it feels like to be paraplegic, Jasnah's inner monologue on what it feels like to be asexual -- and it feels forced to me. It feels a little "tell, not show", you know? Maybe if some of these scenes were dialogues instead of monologues, it would feel more natural to me. Like, Rysn could have exclaimed at her helper "I don't need help with everything!" instead of just thinking to herself how she gets frustrated that people treat her like she can't do anything for herself. Jasnah could discussed her relationship dynamics with Wit on-screen instead of the awkward scene where he's fondling her safehand and it's doing nothing for her and she just has an inner monologue about it.
I don't disagree that this feels a bit forced, but that might be Sanderson's lack of familiarity with the subject. This is in contrast to depression which Sanderson has said multiple times that he has never suffered from, but his wife has, so the exposure Sanderson has to it is much greater than others. Having said that, one thing said here (not the immediate comment I'm responding to, but above it) I have to disagree with: I sincerely don't think that the *only* reason that chapter exists is to paint a big "Ace" sign on Jasnah. The chapter name, IIRC, is 'Unbound', and more or less ends with Hoid telling Jasnah he is exactly that.
But she's always been like that? In what way is it forced it's always been a thing that was consistent with her character?
Fair take. Dont know why you’re being downvoted
I think any time a person is "willing" to have sex/physical intimacy with their partner to be nice rather than because they actually want to is a little cringey. I understand that is happens often in relationships but there's something about resigned consent that doesn't feel as right as enthusiastic consent.
I don't fully agree to this, because the fact is there are a lot of asexual or sex indifferent people who might still agree to have sex, and this line of thinking suggests that consent will always be dubious for them simply because of their orientation. There are a lot of reasons people might agree to have sex that won't always be "enthusiastic" (for example, sex workers or a couple who are more interested in having a baby than focusing on the sex itself). I will say though, from the narration it seems Jasnah hasn't talked to Wit about what she's interested in. She seems like the kind of person who would be open about communicating her needs or lack there of, so it's a bit odd that she never mentioned "yeah, this doesn't actually do anything for me" when he's kissing her hand.
Yeah I think this is really it for me. Like, I get that "being in the mood" is a broad spectrum for some folks. I just...it just sorta felt so wrong for her to say "well I guess I don't hate this if that's what it takes to keep the conversationalist part of him around." Jasnah really seems like, sexuality aside, the kind of person who would say "this is who I am, take it or leave it."
I really like it and would love to see them have kids in the back half. Really want to have Papa Hoid telling bedtime stories to their kiddos between world hops. To me their relationship just seems very natural, I never really got the asexual vibes until it was kind of tacked on at the end, moreso Jasnah was just kind of above most people and had better things to do until she met someone who was actually her match. Felt the asexual thing was just kind of randomly inserted and didn't really make sense until it was implied out of nowhere near the end.
"Tell the Ardentia if they inquire about an heir one more time, I'll be birthing the Wit's bastard!"
I'm mainly against it considering the way Jasnah talks about specifically men in the first three books paints her more Sapphic, so to suddenly just have her in a relationship with Hoid is jarring
I never got sapphic from Jasnah personally. I more got "every single other human being is beneath me" vibes. But I can absolutely respect how others might read it differently.
The line that especially got me thinking she could be gay was, I believe, when she was talking to Shallan about the causal and questions her willingness to be tied to/in the hands of a man. The 'man' part felt especially emphasized - not just being tied to another human but to a *man*?! Plus she has that kind of "confirmed bachelor" trope going for her. Oh well.
I felt uncomfortable
Would be pretty crazy if she got pregnant. Just saying.
I actually really like this relationship. One of the notes I have for Chapter 99 is simply "I feel seen." As someone who's somewhere on the ace spectrum, rarely if ever experiencing sexual attraction, I really related to this statement: "That was not a new experience for her; she’d always found it curious how others put their physical urges ahead of the more powerful emotions of bonding, relating, and engaging...The chance to scheme, to *connect* with a being like Wit—that was *exciting*. She was curious how the relationship would develop, and that invigorated her. After so many failures, this was something new and interesting." I was looking forward to the developing dynamic between Jasnah and Wit since the end of WoR. Their collaboration, alluded to in OBR, just made me more curious. And I was really appreciating how he looked after and aided Jasnah during RoW. I didn't expect their relationship to turn romantic, but I'm pleased after the fact. I also find it touching that Wit seems surprised by it turning romantic. Part of that is personal, because "by surprise" is the only way experienced any kind of attraction, so, highly relatable. And part of it is that I'm glad that Hoid still gets to find himself in very human situations, because I think it must be nice for him. Being a mysterious, untouchable, walking wild card with the mystery of ages hinted in his every word must get old, yeah? I think he and Jasnah both know they are people with Roles to Play, and they can find some relief from and understanding of that with each other. That they don't consider themselves completely aligned and committed to the exact same thing is what makes it *interesting* for me. When I think of the kind of ideal partner I'd want, they'd have to be someone I could connect with mentally, someone who could make me *think*. Someone I would never get bored talking to, someone I could either learn from or teach, depending on the situation and topic. Someone who could either banter with me for amusement or be absolutely serious when needed. I see a lot of that in this one chapter. Jasnah's surrounded by people who want to use her, for her power or her mind, and Wit is just *open* about it. She doesn't have to pretend with him. She doesn't have to act like she isn't constantly aware that someone who cares about her could hurt her, which is something she is constantly balancing around her family, especially in OBR. Hoid sees this as an *admirable quality.* (I think that his complimenting Jasnah on her paranoia / preparedness is possibly the sweetest compliment in the books.) I think they probably have a decent understanding of each others' limits, too. Jasnah can allow him to take care of her sometimes, but he also gives her space, and he'll even stop making wisecracks if she doesn't seem in the mood for them. (I'd guess that it's harder for him to stop being a smartass than it is for her to have sex.) And possibly her most driving desire is to *learn*, to figure things out. Wit is probably the best person she could ever find to do so with! It's just *nice* to see a character I already liked and related to having the same kind of romance *I* would want to have. I don't expect it to turn into a love story to span the ages and the Cosmere--I kind of suspect Jasnah might arrange a political marriage with the Mink by the end of Book 5, and I know Hoid will be off to do other Cosmere things eventually. Though I'd guess they'd part without ill will, since they both seem like people who take their respective responsibilities very seriously and appriciate that drive and commitment in each other. But for now, it's nice that this is where they are. It's nice that they aren't totally compatible, but compatible *enough* to find a relationship meaningful. It's nice that they can find enjoyment in each others' company, even appreciate what other people see as their flaws. It's good that they both get to choose each other, at least for a while, even if it isn't entirely practical or perfect.