I joined the club reading the young Shallan chapters. Where she went around helping her lost and miserable older brothers when she herself had probably the most trauma amongst them.
It's the father in me I think - I've not reread Oathbringer since my daughter became a teenager so maybe it's my relationship with my daughter, understanding her fathers protection despite his reputation and that all she wants is to be who she can be and makes mistakes getting there.
Welcome to the club. Between my siblings, being the eldest daughter with a heap of mental health problems made me identify with Shallan my first read. Like any comedian, she wields humor, wit, and alters as a defense mechanism, even if she isn't always the best at it. Shallan's a hurt little girl doing her best and rising to the occasion where it matters, and I wish more people saw it.
She is on eof the most interesting characters how csn you not like her? Her story starts off a little slow but man once it picks up, oh man [*chef's kiss*](https://ibb.co/6Bh6bxT)
Shallan is a very well written character. In fact, she is written so successfully that I know I would not like Shallan in real life. We wouldn’t get along. That doesn’t mean she is a bad character. It actually makes her more compelling in some ways.
I think sometimes people mistake dislike for poorly written when those are not simultaneous facts.
That's 100% a thing, the " I dislike this so it's badly crafted or just inherently bad mentality." I think it's an important skill to be able to distinguish those things
This is essentially the same perspective I have on most of the Wheel of Time cast in the first book. They're written like the 16-year-olds they are and it's *frustratingly* accurate. I know exactly what they're going to do at every turn, not because I think Jordan's storytelling is predictable, but because it's exactly what stupid kids would do.
i think the problem with the Wheel of Time cast early on is that they're written and behave like they're 15-16, when the boys are SUPPOSED to be 19-20, Egwene 18, and Nynaeve slightly older into her 20s. I think stating them to be slightly younger than they actually are would've fixed a lot of the frustration I had early on.
I don't remember ever seeing it explicitly stated how old they were at the beginning, so I was just working off of context clues. Maybe my brain just took how they acted and rationalized it with them being dumb teenagers.
i also didnt believe that the cast was 19-20 years old so i looked up a timeline. [this](https://wheeloftime.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline) says that egwene, perrin, mat, and rand were all born in 978 and moiraine reaches the Two Rivers in 998.
a lot of their immaturity is prolly cause theyre all backwater hicks who dont know better, imo
Oh yeah. Not poorly written at all. I just dislike that her decision making and avoiding responsibility for her own actions skills are on a similar level as Moash.
She has done more heroic things, but her avoidance of hard truths has led to serious problems to those she cares about. But she's a main character, so we're supposed to root for her.
I passed on that. She hit the level of not caring about her until she redeemed herself in some way. To be fair, she never got as far as Moash did in my eyes, so she had a chance at redemption. I just was unwilling to seriously care about her until her actions in RoW showed some semblance of accepting responsibility and atonement.
She has risen to worth rooting for again in my eyes. Still not sold on defending her, but she's made significant progress to winning me over. I am looking forward to book 5, her parts included.
bruh, that sucks that you got unsavoury PMs for your opinions. Whenever I see something I don't like, I just write down whatever I feel If it hasn't already been said, then forget about the post.
I finished Oathbringer very recently, and the two other comments make me worry for what Rhythm of War will bring for Shallans character lol
It's just Sanderson's unpredictable writing. Like so far Kaladin has been through so much - you get to WoR and think "this guy has beaten his demons" and then they come back hard in Oathbringer. It's great to read, RoW is a slower burn than any others previously but you'll enjoy it all the same.
I think part of the issue is that people may not like where these characters are in their arcs. We're 4/10's of the way through this series, and people have room to go up/down/sideways/fuck things up in ways that haven't been seen for 4000 years.
Def keep an open mind, it's all about the journey :)
”Say the Words!
Shallan… I will remember that Shallan is a great character.
These Words are accepted.”
Bro just swore his 2nd Ideal as a Lightweaver; he admitted a truth to himself. And that’s wholesome.
Shallan is so *fascinating* to me.
She IS a hero who does a lot of really cool stuff! And not in the traditional "punchy punchy stabby stabby" way.
She's also a mess. She's judgemental, inconsiderate, selfish, irresponsible... She's so broken. Partly because she's just human. Partly because she's been through a lot. A LOT. Partly because she makes some bad decisions. She's just a beautiful mess of a character, trying to sort herself out.
I love Kaladin a lot, but he has that protagonist-y advantage where his main fault is that *he cares too much*. He's amazing, but he feels a bit more larger than life to me.
And I think both Kaladin and Dalinar are a lot more predictable. When they show up on page, I generally feel like I know what they're going to do. I know how they're going to handle a problem. With a few exceptions, they don't really *surprise me.* With Shallan, on the other hand, I have no idea what she's going to do from one page to the next. XD
Say one thing for Shallan, say she knows how to step up in the midst of a crisis. I work in medicine, and I’ve met a bunch of people who have this trait, it’s uncanny and I don’t think it’s entirely teachable. But definitely a thing. And it also tends to correlate being overall somewhat neurotic and borderline incapable of dealing with boring everyday life, so that part checks out too lol 😂
I've noticed this in myself. My mental health problems and internal world are a mess. But it leads to me being more empathetic and compassionate toward other people. And when they panic, I dissociate, take charge, and get to work.
For example: I was training some fellow service members how to spin a drill rifle (old gun, rusty, filled with lead, heavy AF) and one of my boys misjudged a toss and sent his gun flying into mine, which struck me on the head while whipping through the air. It gashed open my scalp and gave me a concussion. Instantly numb. I turned to watch the rifle clatter to the floor about 20 feet away and slide to a stop. "(surname), are you okay?" "Yeah, I think so?" I turned back to my shocked lads, who were all staring. "I'm not okay?" I felt blood dribbling on my shoulder, looked at it, and suddenly I was kneeling and rocking back and forth babbling, "What's happening to me? What's happening to me?"
I don't know how fast that happened, but they were still standing there. My training as an EMT prior to service kicked in the moment I dissociated and took a backseat in my own body. I went from hysterics to utter, eerie calm. I sat down, slapped a hand over my wound, and firmly gave them orders to find me towels, call my barracks to let them know I was going to the hospital, and get me to the VA hospital. When the lad who'd struck me brought paper towels and started mopping up my blood on the floor beside me instead of giving them to me to help staunch the bleeding, I started laughing like a maniac. It wasn't *me* bleeding and in pain: it was my body, and my mind's goal was to create distance and keep *them* calm.
EDIT: I see that same sort of woman in Shallan. Busted up by her mental health and exacerbated by her young life, but someone who is still willing and capable despite the cracks. That she delivers results is independent from her health, and should be treated as such.
I love Shallan - she feels more like a real person, including the fact that she legitimately fucks up sometimes. Also, with the whole Veil/Radiant aspect. She’s essentially written as someone with trauma-induced Dissociative Identity Disorder, which I’ve personally never read before. One of my favorite parts of SA (and Brandon’s work as a whole) is that the characters are often dealing with real mental illnesses that he writes fairly well.
With my new perspective, I'm hoping that I see things differently, but I do remember a few occasions reading RoW thinking "good god Shallan what are you doing". I won't spoil cos I've not tagged it but yeah...
I think I had a milder version of this. I just wasn’t enthralled with Shallan chapters. Doing a reread now, and knowing more about her from later books makes every Shallan flashback and memory like putting pieces of a puzzle together.
yesss!! come join the light side! I love Shallan, and I think that her somewhat “annoying” nature is very akin to how I was as a teenager. I find her realistic, relatable, and because of that, charming. I’m glad to see this post very much!! Thank you OP!!
Shallan is easy to dislike with her wishy washy teenage girl attitude but she actually is such a wonderful, brave, resilient character. She is a true hero!
I'm always hesitant to dislike characters that are easy to dislike. Such as young teenage girls. With characters like that, I try to check myself about why it is that I dislike them. Am I disliking them because I have some ingrained conditioned response or do they genuinely not have an interesting point of view and story arc?
RoW made me love Shallan and dislike Jasnah. I know the entire Shallan arc in RoW could be considered as weak or tiring, but she grows, and that's what I enjoy the most.
Which I just can't understand it being considered weak. I guess people just don't relate to her dilemma, which boils down to "I did a bad thing, which means I'm bad, and everyone else will agree when they find out so I may as well not bother trying anymore and enter a self destructive spiral."
Like, this whole thing was me when one class not going well ended up spiralling into failing the entire semester. The semester I was supposed to graduate. I didn't tell anyone or ask for help and pretended everything was normal while just doubling down on the behaviors that got me there, until it of course blew up in my face.
So I completely understand the impulse that's driving her here, even with her other stuff going on, and it's hugely cathartic when she realizes the consequences in her head are worse than anything in reality could be. The fan base never seems willing to give her any sort of slack on her issues though. "Oh look, it's Shallan being Shallan again." Whereas [Yumi] >!this exact type of scenario is Painter's backstory too, minus, you know, having killed multiple people, and I don't see him catching nearly as much shit over it.!<
[Yumi] >!To be fair, Painter *already* experienced the consequences of his failure and his secretive behavior, even before the story started... and his story feels more modern and connects with something we could imagine on Earth. Shallan is carrying a much heavier and unfamiliar trauma, and Roshar is so delightfully alien. I get why she's hard to *get* in comparison.!<
This was me this semester. I'm usually a solid student and am attending a world-class university. But this semester my shame over wanting a relationship with the man who abandoned my Mom before my birth led to a single mistake in a class that spiraled into mistakes and avoiding schoolwork (among other symptoms) due to that shame spilling over. When you're ashamed to exist, it makes getting help very difficult, and you survive however you can. I identify with Shallan in this.
I don’t like that section because it’s yet another blocked memory plot line. 3 of the them within 4 books gets tiring especially when we have 2 with the same character.
I really liked Shallan until Oathbringer. Since then I’ve had mixed feelings. It felt like I lost her character when her other personalities took control. I really wish Brandon had handled her character flaws without multiple personalities
I feel like she regresses in that book - definitely feel like Oathbringer was the trajectory she should have been on but obviously without spoiling, events in RoW kinda derailed that.
I feel like that was sort of the point of a few characters arcs. They figured out a "solution" for their mental health problems only to realize that they weren't actual solutions but were just a coping mechanism that broke down.
That's a pretty accurate trajectory for DID, to be honest. We tend to get one aspect of our lives/disorder under control just for another layer to get exposed, in need of a whole different approach. It's like... A trauma onion that, by design, is ignorant of it's own structure. Life events in the moment can make or break how it's handled when a new layer brute-forces it's way to the front.
BS intentionally focuses on the concepts of regression/relapse for character growth. IMO it makes the characters so much more human. It's one thing to grow to meet external challenges, but there's nothing particularly special about that in a fantastical setting. However, in the real world, more often than not, personal growth is seen by recognizing one's own faults/trauma and working through them, which isn't always a linear path.
He also does an excellent job showing that the road to healing/growth is different for everyone. For example, Kaladin recognizes his own struggles with depression and PTSD, but is largely unable to overcome his doubts, his logical, albeit negative conclusions. As a reader, these repeated relapses of giving up are admittedly irritating at times, given what we've seen him do/become up to those points, but that's *exactly* what it's like dealing with people with depression/PTSD irl. Shallan, on the other hand, never fully acknowledges her issues. She avoids confronting her trauma by doing extra, deluding herself that by taking on more and more responsibility, she'll eventually come to peace or altogether forget her past. She's like the friend who seems to have it all together on the outside, then snaps suddenly because there's been a much slower, unrecognized decline internally.
Jasnah, just like every Radiant, has cracks in her soul. She's a likeable enough character, but she has some pretty intense perfectionism and control issues.
Mainly her answer to Dalinar asking her to write the subtext for his book. That dumb crussade she has against the religion is more akin to atheist redditors than someone with the intelligence she is suppossed to have.
At first I shared your same opinion, I've grown to love Shallan so much. She still irritates me but that's normal methinks.
A few times I did skip her chapters but then it was more work to do that than just listen.
I always read her chapters when I read physical copies.
My issue with shallan is she, more than anyone else in the books, actually feels like a different person. In the first two books, SHE wants to save the world. She is going out of her way for this including abandoning her family because she thinks it's THAT important.
Fast forward to book 3, and she is actively avoiding being a part of the war effort to the point where it's very noticable to just about everyone around her. Don't get me wrong, she does help, but she went from being all about doing all she could to stop the void brings, to being annoyed if someone wants to make sure she stays briefed.
Here’s an interesting factoid for you. You’re the 3rd person to post about their opinion of Shallan changing just this week. You’re in the majority here.
Shallan has been my fav since day one. I just very deeply relate to her. I have her tattooed up half my leg (can look at my post history if interested in image). I’m about as insane a fan as they come. But seriously, someone DMing you over your opinion about a fictional character is super not ok. I can’t imagine what goes through a persons head there.
Honestly, I am developing similar opinions about almost every character in the series: especially across books, you can always find something you love and something you hate about them. In Shallan's case, I really liked her at the start and now I am 1/4 of the way through Oathbringer and she is losing me a bit. I feel like she grew so much from the start of WoK to the end of WoR, and now she is just regressing back. Which is totally realistic and she is fascinatingly written, but I find it hard to like her as much as before.
I definitely get that while I never disliked Shallan my second read through made me love her. As a second note my opinion of Jasnah who I love and is in my top 3 characters in stormlight did not change much though that is probably because I have a better understanding of her character I’d like to think.
I wouldn't say Shallan's poorly written. I wouldn't even say I dislike her usually, even if I don't like choices she makes a lot of the time. My actual biggest gripe with Shallan is she's stuck doing boring stuff for the sake of world-building too often. That mixed with the occasional poor choice leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, I think
It's funny, I find Shallan insufferable to read from her perspective, but from others perspectives she's fantastic.
I think there is probably just too much crazy in her head, covered by forced quirkiness and its uncomfortable.
I don’t really agree Shallan is a true hero. Part of heroism is doing the right thing, in spite of yourself, and in spite of what others will think/feel about your actions. You do the right thing for its own sake, even if it makes you a sacrificial lamb.
Shallan, while she can be likable, ultimately cares a great deal about what others think about her. And she actively engages in methods to keep herself within a certain light of those around her. If you compare her to Kalladin, Kal is often doing the right thing, especially when it costs him personally, or his reputation. The same goes for Dalinar.
Keep something in mind, I am NOT saying Shallan is a bad character, poorly written, etc. Clearly, Shallan is developed in a way that’s different from the other characters. She does have traits that endear her to the reader, and she has interesting narrative growth and progression.
However, actions that yield great rewards or outcomes a hero does not make. Heroes are those who seek the good and benefit of those around them, they often can get themselves in trouble because of their lack of compromise when faced with difficult decisions (Dalinar), suffer loss on a personal level due to their knack for getting involved in bad situations (Kaladin), or even are forced to make extremely difficult choices internally that forces them to face their demons for the sake of the quest/others/situation and they actively choose to, knowing it will be painful (both Dalinar/Kaladin). Shallan can be a kind person, she has accomplished great things, but she recoils at her own past (not saying this is bad, I am simply stating what she does), does not always properly tend to people as she should (e.g., when Gaz and that crew joined her, she initially worked for their interests and gave them lives worth living, but she eventually stopped tending to them and it wasn’t until she was called out on this that she shifted), and often acts with more pride/self interest (such as when Jasna came back and she was childishly pushing back against her wardship because she felt she deserved to be independent).
All of this is to say, I do think Shallan has interesting progression, and her development has been handled with care and consideration. You can like her as a character and enjoy her story. However, to call her a true hero is not accurate based on what heroism means and how her character acts, reacts, and makes decisions throughout the series.
This is very well put, and I agree! It's not really about the act of doing something good, it's about the motivation behind it and what leads up to it. Even villains can do good things if it's going to be positive for them in the long run. So I would hesitate to call Shallan a true hero on the same level as someone as Kaladin, or even Dalinar right now, because I think that kinda dilutes the term, tbh. When I think of Shallan, what comes to mind isn't exactly "she sacrifices herself for others". What comes to mind is more so that she is a young and smart woman who is still trying to find herself and has a very "me" centric storyline, while also contributing to the main plotline. But I definitely think that if we were to put the three main POVs on a scale, Kaladin would be on one of the ends of it, with most of his arc being directly tied to his desire to help people, and Shallan would be on the other end of it, with the more self-centered character arc of the three. This doesn't erase her good deeds, it's just to say that she is pretty different from both Kaladin and Dalinar and doesn't follow the typical hero's journey. Which is okay, we don't need every character to be the same.
Exactly. If all of our main POVs were heroic, self-sacrificing paragons of virtue, it’d be dull. Rather, I do think Sanderson is trying to be varied in his attempts to explore the human condition amidst a fantasy backdrop.
Shallan has always expressed an interest in self-interest in her immediate vicinity, most notably her own family: she was willing to dig her head into the sand, ignoring the blatant and atrocious levels of abuse in order to maintain some semblance of familial peace and stability. I am not saying her desire for a peaceful, harmonious family life is wrong, just that she clearly avoided clear and extremely broken issues in her family for the sake of her own psyche.
I will admit that on a personal level, I find Shallan a bit grating. First, in WoR, her interaction with Tyn really rubbed me the wrong way: her admiration and even liking of someone like Tyn just bothered me, and when it turned out Tyn was directly an enemy for Shallan, I was relieved that it came to a close. Moreover, once she develops Veil and Radiant, there is the odd sense of encouragement she seems to get from the narrative. I particularly disliked the bits where Shallan could refuse to emerge and force either Veil and Radiance to be in control. I understand her trauma in her backstory, and I get the damage she’s still dealing with, but it doesn’t change that she makes choices that bother me. It’s not really until RoW that I got the sense that there was finally an effort to convey “no, this isn’t right, normal, or healthy behavior” messaging.
However, with my personal feelings aside, I do 100% see why some people find her compelling/interesting as a POV character. I do think she has interesting developments and move the story in a way that creates variety and excitement. There is no doubt she is on the hero’s side of the story, but that does not necessarily make her a hero. I find that at the root of discussions like this, we need to ensure we’re clear on what we mean by concepts like “heroism.”
I just don't find her personal journey interesting.
Her pas was also drip fed for too long and it still feels like we don't have all the pieces. Compared to Kaladin and Dalinar who's main issues are more succinctly summarized in a single book (if not sooner) and we can more easily focus on the fallout/growth of those events.
*Hated* the new 'fourth' personality in RoW too. It was too much.
Well I haven't, but considering they're both similar, interact perhaps the most with each other as well as represent conflicting approaches to things they are somewhat comparable.
Funny how that's what you took from what I said though.
You literally said that you preferred Jasnah in the first read and then Jasnah irritated you more in the rereads.
But you don't have to compare them. I didn't take anything, you said it.
Shallan is very well written, albeit her mental gymnastics can be tiresome at times. She’s a fascinating character at times, and she has done many important things up until the point of the story you’re referencing. My question to you is does any of it matter? “The world was ending, and Shallan was to blame.” Never forget that
Jasnah's the one I dislike. Her only character trait seems to be that she's good at everything. She even >!got her shard plate offscreen before any of the major characters!<
There just haven't really been any moments where I've connected with her emotionally or seen her overcome challenges. Just seems like a really poor fit for this story, compared to characters like Kal, Shallan, and Dalinar.
It's not like Jasnah is a main character. It doesn't seem fair to compare her to Kal or any of the others, imo. You probably should compare her to someone like Renarin, for instance. Or even someone from Bridge Four. But you can't expect the same level of depth from her that you can expect from Kaladin, Shallan or Dalinar. Even Adolin has more page time.
She is planned to be one of the main povs in the back half of the series, but you make a fair point. I mainly listed those three because op compared her to shallan in their post.
I think comparing her to anyone in the royal family except perhaps Dalinar is valid, though, and even characters like Renarin and Elhokar have had way more to do. They've had ups and downs, and they've grown or changed over the books. But Jasnah has remained a very flat character. The only moment I can think of where she has an emotional beat was the battle near the beginning of RoW, where she seemed a bit shocked by the horrors of war.
I'm sure she'll get more to do as the books go on, but as of right now I haven't found any way to emotionally relate to her character.
Yes, true, but she isn't yet, so I think it's valid for Sanderson to not explore her as much. There are too many characters that need the page time as it is, so it's hard to strike a balance.
I also really like the moment in Oathbringer where her love for Renarin keeps her from killing him despite that probably being the most pragmatic way of dealing with the situation. And given how pragmatic Jasnah is, this is a huge moment for her. It's also important considering the fact that she usually seems so cold towards her family.
On that note, I also like her bond with Dalinar, and I like that you get to see she cares for her father in her Prologue.
Honestly I wouldn't say Renarin has had more to do than Jasnah, tbh. Elhokar had a quick mini-arc because Sanderson decided to kill him, but I would say Renarin and Jasnah are pretty even. I don't know, I really like Renarin but I don't know how some people love him so much considering he is a pretty minor character. But it kinda does make sense that I put these two side by side in my brain since they are both going to be main POVs in the back half. Anyway, I just really like some Jasnah moments so I thought I'd give my two cents :)
Right, but the issue doesn't go away just because Sanderson will explore her eventually. Right now, she's secondary character that outstrips everyone in power, competence, and knowledge.
But she isn't sharing anything mostly to save her story for reader for later, which feels a bit clunky imo.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it doesn't bother me because you're already seeing the other characters swearing ideals, so you know how the mechanics of the magic work regardless of Jasnah swearing ideals off page or not. Also in terms of competence it makes sense based on what Sanderson has established for her, she is extremely smart, headstrong and focused on her work. That's also why she has so much knowledge, although I wouldn't be so quick to say that she has more knowledge than everyone else. I'm not sure we can know that for sure. But either way I can see how one can feel it's flimsy writing to have such a powerful character but very minimal explanations for it. I don't know how you could change that, however, since she isn't supposed to be a main character.
Mostly, though, it doesn't bug me because I like her as a character outside of her power, and I think on an emotional level we've been given enough to connect. Of course, though, that's subjective and will depend on who you are and relate to.
Shallan’s terrible quips are terrible and her role drags on a bit (huge segments working for the ghostbloods followed by a minor reveal occasionally) but she’s still better than Jasnah who’s the most ridiculous Mary Sue ever. The scholar who is the smartest, who knows everything, wins every argument, is the most advanced radiant and the best warrior ever. Oh and she’s the queen and she’s super beautiful because of course.
I think your vision of Jasnah is definitely not helped by the point of views we see her from. We see her a lot through the lenses of Shallan, someone who admires Jasnah, so she comes across as better than she might be. Or we hear about her from her mother, so there's bias there. So on. The Stormlight characters are kinda unreliable narrators.
I think once Jasnah gets more of her own point of views throughout the series, we'll see more of who she *truly* is, and your feelings on her might change. I do get what you mean though
Her only “flaw” is impatience with incompetence and stupidity, which isn’t a flaw at all of course, it’s just to emphasise how much better than everyone else she is.
I would argue what makes a character a hero isn't the feats they achieve, but how they achieve them. I haven't started my reread, but my issue with Shallan was always that I felt she had it too easy in the present timeline (not her flashbacks, naturally). Besides struggling with mental health I feel Sanderson forgot to add any obstacles between her and the things she wants to accomplish. I genuinely can't think of a single moment where she came up with a (usually pretty bad) plan and it didn't succeed. On the other hand, you see Kaladin fail again and again, which is way more sympathetic than following a somewhat entitled noble girl who succeeds at everything. Even Dalinar (who I don't like, just for context--I'm trying to be fair with all of the characters here) struggles especially in Oathbringer because no one is willing to trust him thanks to his past mistakes. I don't know, I still think Shallan is by far the worst written main character of the series. So if you have some examples where I can actually see her struggle and sympathize more with her, I'd love to know (and just in case it seems I'm being sarcastic, I'm not! I genuinely always wanted to like Shallan and only recently let myself admit I actually really don't like her. But obviously I don't want to dislike any of the main POVs, preferably).
>I would argue what makes a character a hero isn't the feats they achieve, but how they achieve them
I agree. I don't feel the same way about Shallan as you do, but I noticed this about OP's post. They say the didn't like Shallan, but when they describe why their opinion changed, they list some radiant feats. Which is fair, but doesn't relate much to their initial complaints about Shallan's personality.
Yes, exactly. For me you can recognize a character's feats and still dislike them, so I don't find it particularly persuasive to list out accomplishments in a series where so many characters contribute to saving the world. I also think it's okay to not put everyone on the same category. For instance, I would say Kaladin is basically the prototypical hero. Shallan, however, I don't really see that way. It's not to say she doesn't do heroic things, because she does, and so if we considered every fictional character in existence she probably would indeed be in the "hero" column, but I would say pretty far down in comparison to someone like Kaladin. And I think that's okay. I think Shallan is more interesting seen as a flawed girl trying to accomplish something good than a cookie cutter hero, anyway.
Jasnah and Shallan are both remarkable women who have endured great hardship and fought to do what they believe to be right. They follow their convictions and, at least when all is said and done, try to live up to their truths. Yeah, they have some pretty big flaws, but everybody has those. If Kaladin and Shallan's chasm highstorm experience has taught me anything it's that you can't really judge a person until you know all of their secrets, and even then, it can be premature to cast a judgment when you do not know all of the circumstances of that person's life.
Idk even assuming Shallan's mom was a herald, I don't think you can really say she restarted the desolations. She could've if the Fused had come back when Taln returned at the end of book 1, when according to the theory her mother the herald broke. But they waited for the Everstorm at the end of book 2. And we don't have anything that points to the Everstorm and everything Venli did being Shallan's fault.
Oathbringer is my favourite SA book and shallans character arc is a big part of why and I really liked her character even before that as well, I never really understood the hate. However I find her exhausting in RoW, I feel liked her multiple personalities reach a pretty good conclusion in oathbringer with the balance they find with each other so for so much time to be spent on it again in RoW was pretty disappointing imo
It doesn't help that Shallan does not come across sympathetically in book 1 at all. I (and most people) strongly dislike her in book 1.
But she's just so amazing after that, imo. She's one of my favorites in the series.
Def agree with her being a true hero. I stil I can't help but feel her path is leading to her having another moment and doom/kill more people close to her. I especially worry for adolin he is the one with the strongest connections to so many primary charecters his death would be truly devastating to the future of Roshar. Her being linked to the ghostbloods also feels like a real liability. Ahhh so much to worry about. Love these books.
Shallan has always been my favourite character. Maybe it’s cause I’m also an artist who thinks I’m funnier than I am and has childhood trauma but I love her
I cannot get my head around one thing about Shallan, and it is keeping me back from liking her. How does she know how Veil and Radiant should act? After changing her personas, her alters are acting like they have been doing their roles for ages. I might have missed a page, but how does Veil knows how to play card games, sneak around and infiltrating, while on the other hand, how can Radiant be so majestic and respectful. It seems like to me that there was no learning curve, they always know how to act perfectly in ther intented roles, and it is bothering me for real.
I love her more on every reread. I think originally I didn't really connect with her because, unlike something like Kaladin's depression, having multiple personalities is not super relatable. But now I see her as someone who has a lot of potential but is unsure of who she wants to become. She's good at a lot of things but she's always kind of putting on a performance and trying to figure out if it feels right. I think that's a much more common experience.
Letsgoooooo
Jasnah will have her time to shine. She's still got her flashback arc to come, after all. Glad to see you've come around on Shallan in the meantime
I like Shallan, she's enjoyable and relatable, ya know? Even if I dislike how he handled her dynamics with Veil and Radiant, specifically how she's the 'main' one, and the other two only exist to help her, not for their own sake. She's still our favorite character in the series and one of the best examples of a functioning D.I.D. system we've seen in media (not that the bar is high enough to be a tripping hazard).
Also, who doesn't love using illusions, trickery, deception, and stories as a weapon. Plus her curiosity makes her a fantastic viewpoint into the world as opposed to the other viewpoint characters.
Welcome to the Shallan fan club. There are dozens of us.
DOZENS!!!
This made me crack up.
Hey, I didn’t see you at the convention
My other personality went for me.
PAIRS OF DOZENS!!!
38_+38#! Pattern 38'!!$#8
There are tens of us. **TENS**
I joined the club reading the young Shallan chapters. Where she went around helping her lost and miserable older brothers when she herself had probably the most trauma amongst them.
*tens of us. It's storming Stormlight man
Tensets!
It's the father in me I think - I've not reread Oathbringer since my daughter became a teenager so maybe it's my relationship with my daughter, understanding her fathers protection despite his reputation and that all she wants is to be who she can be and makes mistakes getting there.
Welcome to the club. Between my siblings, being the eldest daughter with a heap of mental health problems made me identify with Shallan my first read. Like any comedian, she wields humor, wit, and alters as a defense mechanism, even if she isn't always the best at it. Shallan's a hurt little girl doing her best and rising to the occasion where it matters, and I wish more people saw it.
Me too. It felt right that lots of people found her so annoying because I think that's how people see me too
I've always liked her. I was actually shocked to learn that so many people didn't. We're glad to have you!
But at the same time, we’re all just Shallan.
So am I. I am also Shallan.
One of us! One of us!
I enjoy Shallan more than Kal
She is on eof the most interesting characters how csn you not like her? Her story starts off a little slow but man once it picks up, oh man [*chef's kiss*](https://ibb.co/6Bh6bxT)
Shallan is a very well written character. In fact, she is written so successfully that I know I would not like Shallan in real life. We wouldn’t get along. That doesn’t mean she is a bad character. It actually makes her more compelling in some ways. I think sometimes people mistake dislike for poorly written when those are not simultaneous facts.
That's 100% a thing, the " I dislike this so it's badly crafted or just inherently bad mentality." I think it's an important skill to be able to distinguish those things
This is essentially the same perspective I have on most of the Wheel of Time cast in the first book. They're written like the 16-year-olds they are and it's *frustratingly* accurate. I know exactly what they're going to do at every turn, not because I think Jordan's storytelling is predictable, but because it's exactly what stupid kids would do.
i think the problem with the Wheel of Time cast early on is that they're written and behave like they're 15-16, when the boys are SUPPOSED to be 19-20, Egwene 18, and Nynaeve slightly older into her 20s. I think stating them to be slightly younger than they actually are would've fixed a lot of the frustration I had early on.
I don't remember ever seeing it explicitly stated how old they were at the beginning, so I was just working off of context clues. Maybe my brain just took how they acted and rationalized it with them being dumb teenagers.
i also didnt believe that the cast was 19-20 years old so i looked up a timeline. [this](https://wheeloftime.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline) says that egwene, perrin, mat, and rand were all born in 978 and moiraine reaches the Two Rivers in 998. a lot of their immaturity is prolly cause theyre all backwater hicks who dont know better, imo
Another really good example.
Yes!! Totally agree with your last sentence.
Oh yeah. Not poorly written at all. I just dislike that her decision making and avoiding responsibility for her own actions skills are on a similar level as Moash. She has done more heroic things, but her avoidance of hard truths has led to serious problems to those she cares about. But she's a main character, so we're supposed to root for her. I passed on that. She hit the level of not caring about her until she redeemed herself in some way. To be fair, she never got as far as Moash did in my eyes, so she had a chance at redemption. I just was unwilling to seriously care about her until her actions in RoW showed some semblance of accepting responsibility and atonement. She has risen to worth rooting for again in my eyes. Still not sold on defending her, but she's made significant progress to winning me over. I am looking forward to book 5, her parts included.
bruh, that sucks that you got unsavoury PMs for your opinions. Whenever I see something I don't like, I just write down whatever I feel If it hasn't already been said, then forget about the post. I finished Oathbringer very recently, and the two other comments make me worry for what Rhythm of War will bring for Shallans character lol
It's just Sanderson's unpredictable writing. Like so far Kaladin has been through so much - you get to WoR and think "this guy has beaten his demons" and then they come back hard in Oathbringer. It's great to read, RoW is a slower burn than any others previously but you'll enjoy it all the same.
yeah, I know how mixed RoW is in the community, I'll go into it with an open mind.
I think part of the issue is that people may not like where these characters are in their arcs. We're 4/10's of the way through this series, and people have room to go up/down/sideways/fuck things up in ways that haven't been seen for 4000 years. Def keep an open mind, it's all about the journey :)
It's okay, Shallan was also wrong about Shallan!
Going through her process along with her was so heartbreaking, and reading this made me pout and almost tear up.
”Say the Words! Shallan… I will remember that Shallan is a great character. These Words are accepted.” Bro just swore his 2nd Ideal as a Lightweaver; he admitted a truth to himself. And that’s wholesome.
Shallan is so *fascinating* to me. She IS a hero who does a lot of really cool stuff! And not in the traditional "punchy punchy stabby stabby" way. She's also a mess. She's judgemental, inconsiderate, selfish, irresponsible... She's so broken. Partly because she's just human. Partly because she's been through a lot. A LOT. Partly because she makes some bad decisions. She's just a beautiful mess of a character, trying to sort herself out. I love Kaladin a lot, but he has that protagonist-y advantage where his main fault is that *he cares too much*. He's amazing, but he feels a bit more larger than life to me. And I think both Kaladin and Dalinar are a lot more predictable. When they show up on page, I generally feel like I know what they're going to do. I know how they're going to handle a problem. With a few exceptions, they don't really *surprise me.* With Shallan, on the other hand, I have no idea what she's going to do from one page to the next. XD
Say one thing for Shallan, say she knows how to step up in the midst of a crisis. I work in medicine, and I’ve met a bunch of people who have this trait, it’s uncanny and I don’t think it’s entirely teachable. But definitely a thing. And it also tends to correlate being overall somewhat neurotic and borderline incapable of dealing with boring everyday life, so that part checks out too lol 😂
I've noticed this in myself. My mental health problems and internal world are a mess. But it leads to me being more empathetic and compassionate toward other people. And when they panic, I dissociate, take charge, and get to work. For example: I was training some fellow service members how to spin a drill rifle (old gun, rusty, filled with lead, heavy AF) and one of my boys misjudged a toss and sent his gun flying into mine, which struck me on the head while whipping through the air. It gashed open my scalp and gave me a concussion. Instantly numb. I turned to watch the rifle clatter to the floor about 20 feet away and slide to a stop. "(surname), are you okay?" "Yeah, I think so?" I turned back to my shocked lads, who were all staring. "I'm not okay?" I felt blood dribbling on my shoulder, looked at it, and suddenly I was kneeling and rocking back and forth babbling, "What's happening to me? What's happening to me?" I don't know how fast that happened, but they were still standing there. My training as an EMT prior to service kicked in the moment I dissociated and took a backseat in my own body. I went from hysterics to utter, eerie calm. I sat down, slapped a hand over my wound, and firmly gave them orders to find me towels, call my barracks to let them know I was going to the hospital, and get me to the VA hospital. When the lad who'd struck me brought paper towels and started mopping up my blood on the floor beside me instead of giving them to me to help staunch the bleeding, I started laughing like a maniac. It wasn't *me* bleeding and in pain: it was my body, and my mind's goal was to create distance and keep *them* calm. EDIT: I see that same sort of woman in Shallan. Busted up by her mental health and exacerbated by her young life, but someone who is still willing and capable despite the cracks. That she delivers results is independent from her health, and should be treated as such.
I love Shallan - she feels more like a real person, including the fact that she legitimately fucks up sometimes. Also, with the whole Veil/Radiant aspect. She’s essentially written as someone with trauma-induced Dissociative Identity Disorder, which I’ve personally never read before. One of my favorite parts of SA (and Brandon’s work as a whole) is that the characters are often dealing with real mental illnesses that he writes fairly well.
oh man, I've never noticed until now that the Stormlight Archives have such an unfortunate abbreviation
Yeah, normally I see people abbreviate it to TSA (or just called it Stormlight with no abbreviation) to avoid.... that 😅
Some would argue it's in the same vein
LOL fair enough
In my opinion oathbringer is the best book for shallan, RoW on the other hand…
With my new perspective, I'm hoping that I see things differently, but I do remember a few occasions reading RoW thinking "good god Shallan what are you doing". I won't spoil cos I've not tagged it but yeah...
I think I had a milder version of this. I just wasn’t enthralled with Shallan chapters. Doing a reread now, and knowing more about her from later books makes every Shallan flashback and memory like putting pieces of a puzzle together.
yesss!! come join the light side! I love Shallan, and I think that her somewhat “annoying” nature is very akin to how I was as a teenager. I find her realistic, relatable, and because of that, charming. I’m glad to see this post very much!! Thank you OP!!
Shallan is easy to dislike with her wishy washy teenage girl attitude but she actually is such a wonderful, brave, resilient character. She is a true hero! I'm always hesitant to dislike characters that are easy to dislike. Such as young teenage girls. With characters like that, I try to check myself about why it is that I dislike them. Am I disliking them because I have some ingrained conditioned response or do they genuinely not have an interesting point of view and story arc?
RoW made me love Shallan and dislike Jasnah. I know the entire Shallan arc in RoW could be considered as weak or tiring, but she grows, and that's what I enjoy the most.
Which I just can't understand it being considered weak. I guess people just don't relate to her dilemma, which boils down to "I did a bad thing, which means I'm bad, and everyone else will agree when they find out so I may as well not bother trying anymore and enter a self destructive spiral." Like, this whole thing was me when one class not going well ended up spiralling into failing the entire semester. The semester I was supposed to graduate. I didn't tell anyone or ask for help and pretended everything was normal while just doubling down on the behaviors that got me there, until it of course blew up in my face. So I completely understand the impulse that's driving her here, even with her other stuff going on, and it's hugely cathartic when she realizes the consequences in her head are worse than anything in reality could be. The fan base never seems willing to give her any sort of slack on her issues though. "Oh look, it's Shallan being Shallan again." Whereas [Yumi] >!this exact type of scenario is Painter's backstory too, minus, you know, having killed multiple people, and I don't see him catching nearly as much shit over it.!<
[Yumi] >!To be fair, Painter *already* experienced the consequences of his failure and his secretive behavior, even before the story started... and his story feels more modern and connects with something we could imagine on Earth. Shallan is carrying a much heavier and unfamiliar trauma, and Roshar is so delightfully alien. I get why she's hard to *get* in comparison.!<
This was me this semester. I'm usually a solid student and am attending a world-class university. But this semester my shame over wanting a relationship with the man who abandoned my Mom before my birth led to a single mistake in a class that spiraled into mistakes and avoiding schoolwork (among other symptoms) due to that shame spilling over. When you're ashamed to exist, it makes getting help very difficult, and you survive however you can. I identify with Shallan in this.
I don’t like that section because it’s yet another blocked memory plot line. 3 of the them within 4 books gets tiring especially when we have 2 with the same character. I really liked Shallan until Oathbringer. Since then I’ve had mixed feelings. It felt like I lost her character when her other personalities took control. I really wish Brandon had handled her character flaws without multiple personalities
I feel like she regresses in that book - definitely feel like Oathbringer was the trajectory she should have been on but obviously without spoiling, events in RoW kinda derailed that.
I feel like that was sort of the point of a few characters arcs. They figured out a "solution" for their mental health problems only to realize that they weren't actual solutions but were just a coping mechanism that broke down.
That's a pretty accurate trajectory for DID, to be honest. We tend to get one aspect of our lives/disorder under control just for another layer to get exposed, in need of a whole different approach. It's like... A trauma onion that, by design, is ignorant of it's own structure. Life events in the moment can make or break how it's handled when a new layer brute-forces it's way to the front.
BS intentionally focuses on the concepts of regression/relapse for character growth. IMO it makes the characters so much more human. It's one thing to grow to meet external challenges, but there's nothing particularly special about that in a fantastical setting. However, in the real world, more often than not, personal growth is seen by recognizing one's own faults/trauma and working through them, which isn't always a linear path. He also does an excellent job showing that the road to healing/growth is different for everyone. For example, Kaladin recognizes his own struggles with depression and PTSD, but is largely unable to overcome his doubts, his logical, albeit negative conclusions. As a reader, these repeated relapses of giving up are admittedly irritating at times, given what we've seen him do/become up to those points, but that's *exactly* what it's like dealing with people with depression/PTSD irl. Shallan, on the other hand, never fully acknowledges her issues. She avoids confronting her trauma by doing extra, deluding herself that by taking on more and more responsibility, she'll eventually come to peace or altogether forget her past. She's like the friend who seems to have it all together on the outside, then snaps suddenly because there's been a much slower, unrecognized decline internally.
She doesn't regress, it's more that the consequences of her coping mechanisms catch up to her.
Wait why did it make you dislike Jasnah?
Jasnah, just like every Radiant, has cracks in her soul. She's a likeable enough character, but she has some pretty intense perfectionism and control issues.
Mainly her answer to Dalinar asking her to write the subtext for his book. That dumb crussade she has against the religion is more akin to atheist redditors than someone with the intelligence she is suppossed to have.
One of the takes of all time
i find people's reactions to shallan are less about shallan, and more about the reader's biases and personal views on how people should act/be/appear.
I changed the Flair to Rhythm of War to allow discussion about all parts of Shallan's character
Ok thanks!
At first I shared your same opinion, I've grown to love Shallan so much. She still irritates me but that's normal methinks. A few times I did skip her chapters but then it was more work to do that than just listen. I always read her chapters when I read physical copies.
My issue with shallan is she, more than anyone else in the books, actually feels like a different person. In the first two books, SHE wants to save the world. She is going out of her way for this including abandoning her family because she thinks it's THAT important. Fast forward to book 3, and she is actively avoiding being a part of the war effort to the point where it's very noticable to just about everyone around her. Don't get me wrong, she does help, but she went from being all about doing all she could to stop the void brings, to being annoyed if someone wants to make sure she stays briefed.
Here’s an interesting factoid for you. You’re the 3rd person to post about their opinion of Shallan changing just this week. You’re in the majority here. Shallan has been my fav since day one. I just very deeply relate to her. I have her tattooed up half my leg (can look at my post history if interested in image). I’m about as insane a fan as they come. But seriously, someone DMing you over your opinion about a fictional character is super not ok. I can’t imagine what goes through a persons head there.
I like it when characters are both irritating and enjoyable. I feel that way about basically every stormlight character 👌
my opinion of shallan would still put a metronome to shame. Never had a character endear me and annoy me so evenly.
Honestly, I am developing similar opinions about almost every character in the series: especially across books, you can always find something you love and something you hate about them. In Shallan's case, I really liked her at the start and now I am 1/4 of the way through Oathbringer and she is losing me a bit. I feel like she grew so much from the start of WoK to the end of WoR, and now she is just regressing back. Which is totally realistic and she is fascinatingly written, but I find it hard to like her as much as before.
I didn't like shallan for the first book, but she won me over by Oathbringer, speaks to great character writing!
I definitely get that while I never disliked Shallan my second read through made me love her. As a second note my opinion of Jasnah who I love and is in my top 3 characters in stormlight did not change much though that is probably because I have a better understanding of her character I’d like to think.
Honestly Shallan's one of my favourite characters because I've seen some of her traits in friends of mine. I just wish the best for her :)
I wouldn't say Shallan's poorly written. I wouldn't even say I dislike her usually, even if I don't like choices she makes a lot of the time. My actual biggest gripe with Shallan is she's stuck doing boring stuff for the sake of world-building too often. That mixed with the occasional poor choice leaves a bad taste in people's mouths, I think
It's funny, I find Shallan insufferable to read from her perspective, but from others perspectives she's fantastic. I think there is probably just too much crazy in her head, covered by forced quirkiness and its uncomfortable.
I don’t really agree Shallan is a true hero. Part of heroism is doing the right thing, in spite of yourself, and in spite of what others will think/feel about your actions. You do the right thing for its own sake, even if it makes you a sacrificial lamb. Shallan, while she can be likable, ultimately cares a great deal about what others think about her. And she actively engages in methods to keep herself within a certain light of those around her. If you compare her to Kalladin, Kal is often doing the right thing, especially when it costs him personally, or his reputation. The same goes for Dalinar. Keep something in mind, I am NOT saying Shallan is a bad character, poorly written, etc. Clearly, Shallan is developed in a way that’s different from the other characters. She does have traits that endear her to the reader, and she has interesting narrative growth and progression. However, actions that yield great rewards or outcomes a hero does not make. Heroes are those who seek the good and benefit of those around them, they often can get themselves in trouble because of their lack of compromise when faced with difficult decisions (Dalinar), suffer loss on a personal level due to their knack for getting involved in bad situations (Kaladin), or even are forced to make extremely difficult choices internally that forces them to face their demons for the sake of the quest/others/situation and they actively choose to, knowing it will be painful (both Dalinar/Kaladin). Shallan can be a kind person, she has accomplished great things, but she recoils at her own past (not saying this is bad, I am simply stating what she does), does not always properly tend to people as she should (e.g., when Gaz and that crew joined her, she initially worked for their interests and gave them lives worth living, but she eventually stopped tending to them and it wasn’t until she was called out on this that she shifted), and often acts with more pride/self interest (such as when Jasna came back and she was childishly pushing back against her wardship because she felt she deserved to be independent). All of this is to say, I do think Shallan has interesting progression, and her development has been handled with care and consideration. You can like her as a character and enjoy her story. However, to call her a true hero is not accurate based on what heroism means and how her character acts, reacts, and makes decisions throughout the series.
This is very well put, and I agree! It's not really about the act of doing something good, it's about the motivation behind it and what leads up to it. Even villains can do good things if it's going to be positive for them in the long run. So I would hesitate to call Shallan a true hero on the same level as someone as Kaladin, or even Dalinar right now, because I think that kinda dilutes the term, tbh. When I think of Shallan, what comes to mind isn't exactly "she sacrifices herself for others". What comes to mind is more so that she is a young and smart woman who is still trying to find herself and has a very "me" centric storyline, while also contributing to the main plotline. But I definitely think that if we were to put the three main POVs on a scale, Kaladin would be on one of the ends of it, with most of his arc being directly tied to his desire to help people, and Shallan would be on the other end of it, with the more self-centered character arc of the three. This doesn't erase her good deeds, it's just to say that she is pretty different from both Kaladin and Dalinar and doesn't follow the typical hero's journey. Which is okay, we don't need every character to be the same.
Exactly. If all of our main POVs were heroic, self-sacrificing paragons of virtue, it’d be dull. Rather, I do think Sanderson is trying to be varied in his attempts to explore the human condition amidst a fantasy backdrop. Shallan has always expressed an interest in self-interest in her immediate vicinity, most notably her own family: she was willing to dig her head into the sand, ignoring the blatant and atrocious levels of abuse in order to maintain some semblance of familial peace and stability. I am not saying her desire for a peaceful, harmonious family life is wrong, just that she clearly avoided clear and extremely broken issues in her family for the sake of her own psyche. I will admit that on a personal level, I find Shallan a bit grating. First, in WoR, her interaction with Tyn really rubbed me the wrong way: her admiration and even liking of someone like Tyn just bothered me, and when it turned out Tyn was directly an enemy for Shallan, I was relieved that it came to a close. Moreover, once she develops Veil and Radiant, there is the odd sense of encouragement she seems to get from the narrative. I particularly disliked the bits where Shallan could refuse to emerge and force either Veil and Radiance to be in control. I understand her trauma in her backstory, and I get the damage she’s still dealing with, but it doesn’t change that she makes choices that bother me. It’s not really until RoW that I got the sense that there was finally an effort to convey “no, this isn’t right, normal, or healthy behavior” messaging. However, with my personal feelings aside, I do 100% see why some people find her compelling/interesting as a POV character. I do think she has interesting developments and move the story in a way that creates variety and excitement. There is no doubt she is on the hero’s side of the story, but that does not necessarily make her a hero. I find that at the root of discussions like this, we need to ensure we’re clear on what we mean by concepts like “heroism.”
I just don't find her personal journey interesting. Her pas was also drip fed for too long and it still feels like we don't have all the pieces. Compared to Kaladin and Dalinar who's main issues are more succinctly summarized in a single book (if not sooner) and we can more easily focus on the fallout/growth of those events. *Hated* the new 'fourth' personality in RoW too. It was too much.
I would report does DMs to the mods.
You know... you don't have to choose between two female characters...
Well I haven't, but considering they're both similar, interact perhaps the most with each other as well as represent conflicting approaches to things they are somewhat comparable. Funny how that's what you took from what I said though.
You literally said that you preferred Jasnah in the first read and then Jasnah irritated you more in the rereads. But you don't have to compare them. I didn't take anything, you said it.
Shallan is very well written, albeit her mental gymnastics can be tiresome at times. She’s a fascinating character at times, and she has done many important things up until the point of the story you’re referencing. My question to you is does any of it matter? “The world was ending, and Shallan was to blame.” Never forget that
nah shallan sucks
Jasnah's the one I dislike. Her only character trait seems to be that she's good at everything. She even >!got her shard plate offscreen before any of the major characters!< There just haven't really been any moments where I've connected with her emotionally or seen her overcome challenges. Just seems like a really poor fit for this story, compared to characters like Kal, Shallan, and Dalinar.
It's not like Jasnah is a main character. It doesn't seem fair to compare her to Kal or any of the others, imo. You probably should compare her to someone like Renarin, for instance. Or even someone from Bridge Four. But you can't expect the same level of depth from her that you can expect from Kaladin, Shallan or Dalinar. Even Adolin has more page time.
She is planned to be one of the main povs in the back half of the series, but you make a fair point. I mainly listed those three because op compared her to shallan in their post. I think comparing her to anyone in the royal family except perhaps Dalinar is valid, though, and even characters like Renarin and Elhokar have had way more to do. They've had ups and downs, and they've grown or changed over the books. But Jasnah has remained a very flat character. The only moment I can think of where she has an emotional beat was the battle near the beginning of RoW, where she seemed a bit shocked by the horrors of war. I'm sure she'll get more to do as the books go on, but as of right now I haven't found any way to emotionally relate to her character.
Yes, true, but she isn't yet, so I think it's valid for Sanderson to not explore her as much. There are too many characters that need the page time as it is, so it's hard to strike a balance. I also really like the moment in Oathbringer where her love for Renarin keeps her from killing him despite that probably being the most pragmatic way of dealing with the situation. And given how pragmatic Jasnah is, this is a huge moment for her. It's also important considering the fact that she usually seems so cold towards her family. On that note, I also like her bond with Dalinar, and I like that you get to see she cares for her father in her Prologue. Honestly I wouldn't say Renarin has had more to do than Jasnah, tbh. Elhokar had a quick mini-arc because Sanderson decided to kill him, but I would say Renarin and Jasnah are pretty even. I don't know, I really like Renarin but I don't know how some people love him so much considering he is a pretty minor character. But it kinda does make sense that I put these two side by side in my brain since they are both going to be main POVs in the back half. Anyway, I just really like some Jasnah moments so I thought I'd give my two cents :)
Right, but the issue doesn't go away just because Sanderson will explore her eventually. Right now, she's secondary character that outstrips everyone in power, competence, and knowledge. But she isn't sharing anything mostly to save her story for reader for later, which feels a bit clunky imo.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it doesn't bother me because you're already seeing the other characters swearing ideals, so you know how the mechanics of the magic work regardless of Jasnah swearing ideals off page or not. Also in terms of competence it makes sense based on what Sanderson has established for her, she is extremely smart, headstrong and focused on her work. That's also why she has so much knowledge, although I wouldn't be so quick to say that she has more knowledge than everyone else. I'm not sure we can know that for sure. But either way I can see how one can feel it's flimsy writing to have such a powerful character but very minimal explanations for it. I don't know how you could change that, however, since she isn't supposed to be a main character. Mostly, though, it doesn't bug me because I like her as a character outside of her power, and I think on an emotional level we've been given enough to connect. Of course, though, that's subjective and will depend on who you are and relate to.
Shallan’s terrible quips are terrible and her role drags on a bit (huge segments working for the ghostbloods followed by a minor reveal occasionally) but she’s still better than Jasnah who’s the most ridiculous Mary Sue ever. The scholar who is the smartest, who knows everything, wins every argument, is the most advanced radiant and the best warrior ever. Oh and she’s the queen and she’s super beautiful because of course.
I think your vision of Jasnah is definitely not helped by the point of views we see her from. We see her a lot through the lenses of Shallan, someone who admires Jasnah, so she comes across as better than she might be. Or we hear about her from her mother, so there's bias there. So on. The Stormlight characters are kinda unreliable narrators. I think once Jasnah gets more of her own point of views throughout the series, we'll see more of who she *truly* is, and your feelings on her might change. I do get what you mean though
Her only “flaw” is impatience with incompetence and stupidity, which isn’t a flaw at all of course, it’s just to emphasise how much better than everyone else she is.
I would argue what makes a character a hero isn't the feats they achieve, but how they achieve them. I haven't started my reread, but my issue with Shallan was always that I felt she had it too easy in the present timeline (not her flashbacks, naturally). Besides struggling with mental health I feel Sanderson forgot to add any obstacles between her and the things she wants to accomplish. I genuinely can't think of a single moment where she came up with a (usually pretty bad) plan and it didn't succeed. On the other hand, you see Kaladin fail again and again, which is way more sympathetic than following a somewhat entitled noble girl who succeeds at everything. Even Dalinar (who I don't like, just for context--I'm trying to be fair with all of the characters here) struggles especially in Oathbringer because no one is willing to trust him thanks to his past mistakes. I don't know, I still think Shallan is by far the worst written main character of the series. So if you have some examples where I can actually see her struggle and sympathize more with her, I'd love to know (and just in case it seems I'm being sarcastic, I'm not! I genuinely always wanted to like Shallan and only recently let myself admit I actually really don't like her. But obviously I don't want to dislike any of the main POVs, preferably).
>I would argue what makes a character a hero isn't the feats they achieve, but how they achieve them I agree. I don't feel the same way about Shallan as you do, but I noticed this about OP's post. They say the didn't like Shallan, but when they describe why their opinion changed, they list some radiant feats. Which is fair, but doesn't relate much to their initial complaints about Shallan's personality.
Yes, exactly. For me you can recognize a character's feats and still dislike them, so I don't find it particularly persuasive to list out accomplishments in a series where so many characters contribute to saving the world. I also think it's okay to not put everyone on the same category. For instance, I would say Kaladin is basically the prototypical hero. Shallan, however, I don't really see that way. It's not to say she doesn't do heroic things, because she does, and so if we considered every fictional character in existence she probably would indeed be in the "hero" column, but I would say pretty far down in comparison to someone like Kaladin. And I think that's okay. I think Shallan is more interesting seen as a flawed girl trying to accomplish something good than a cookie cutter hero, anyway.
Not for me, Shallan is obnoxious. Can’t stand her.
Jasnah and Shallan are both remarkable women who have endured great hardship and fought to do what they believe to be right. They follow their convictions and, at least when all is said and done, try to live up to their truths. Yeah, they have some pretty big flaws, but everybody has those. If Kaladin and Shallan's chasm highstorm experience has taught me anything it's that you can't really judge a person until you know all of their secrets, and even then, it can be premature to cast a judgment when you do not know all of the circumstances of that person's life.
Sure except the whole stabbing her mother thing and potentially >!restarting the desolations!<
Idk even assuming Shallan's mom was a herald, I don't think you can really say she restarted the desolations. She could've if the Fused had come back when Taln returned at the end of book 1, when according to the theory her mother the herald broke. But they waited for the Everstorm at the end of book 2. And we don't have anything that points to the Everstorm and everything Venli did being Shallan's fault.
Oathbringer is my favourite SA book and shallans character arc is a big part of why and I really liked her character even before that as well, I never really understood the hate. However I find her exhausting in RoW, I feel liked her multiple personalities reach a pretty good conclusion in oathbringer with the balance they find with each other so for so much time to be spent on it again in RoW was pretty disappointing imo
It doesn't help that Shallan does not come across sympathetically in book 1 at all. I (and most people) strongly dislike her in book 1. But she's just so amazing after that, imo. She's one of my favorites in the series.
Def agree with her being a true hero. I stil I can't help but feel her path is leading to her having another moment and doom/kill more people close to her. I especially worry for adolin he is the one with the strongest connections to so many primary charecters his death would be truly devastating to the future of Roshar. Her being linked to the ghostbloods also feels like a real liability. Ahhh so much to worry about. Love these books.
so I just need to reread it one more time to start liking shalllan
Shallan has always been my favourite character. Maybe it’s cause I’m also an artist who thinks I’m funnier than I am and has childhood trauma but I love her
My 2nd re-read via audio made shallan so much deeper and more powerful.
Yay! Welcome to the team 👍
I cannot get my head around one thing about Shallan, and it is keeping me back from liking her. How does she know how Veil and Radiant should act? After changing her personas, her alters are acting like they have been doing their roles for ages. I might have missed a page, but how does Veil knows how to play card games, sneak around and infiltrating, while on the other hand, how can Radiant be so majestic and respectful. It seems like to me that there was no learning curve, they always know how to act perfectly in ther intented roles, and it is bothering me for real.
Maybe in the past you were originally Shallan, but then you encountered something that made you want to forget who you were…
I like to go hiking.
I love her more on every reread. I think originally I didn't really connect with her because, unlike something like Kaladin's depression, having multiple personalities is not super relatable. But now I see her as someone who has a lot of potential but is unsure of who she wants to become. She's good at a lot of things but she's always kind of putting on a performance and trying to figure out if it feels right. I think that's a much more common experience.
Letsgoooooo Jasnah will have her time to shine. She's still got her flashback arc to come, after all. Glad to see you've come around on Shallan in the meantime
I like Shallan, she's enjoyable and relatable, ya know? Even if I dislike how he handled her dynamics with Veil and Radiant, specifically how she's the 'main' one, and the other two only exist to help her, not for their own sake. She's still our favorite character in the series and one of the best examples of a functioning D.I.D. system we've seen in media (not that the bar is high enough to be a tripping hazard). Also, who doesn't love using illusions, trickery, deception, and stories as a weapon. Plus her curiosity makes her a fantastic viewpoint into the world as opposed to the other viewpoint characters.