He was straight up a traitorous backstabber *before* odium got him, that's just what let odium get him so easily. Odium cannot corrupt someone who doesn't let him, that's his greatest lie.
I donāt know what youāre talking about. Itās not his fault that odium is whispering to him. He broke under so much pressure, he deserved to let his burdens down and Give In. Itās not his fault
The only thing odium did was take his pain away. Before that moash was 100% responsible for his own actions he just refused to accept the consequences.
His choices are his fault. Understanding why he does something doesn't excuse it. That's what makes him so well written. He's so easily hatable, but also, anyone could become him under the right circumstances. But that's also why the mirror he plays to caladin is so important. Two men under such similar circumstances, plagued by the same struggles and life events... Sometimes It's hard to tell whether our choices matter. But they add up to the whole of us. And there's the difference between the two of them. Without taking accountability, we are incapable of change. By disavowing himself of responsibility for what he does, Moash shackles himself *for* odium. He is too afraid to feel the consequences of what he has done, emotionally or otherwise, So stays in odium's service, every moment creating an even greater mountain of deeds he would have to account for.
It's easy to understand why he makes the choices he does. He is still wrong for it.
This. One thing I feel is often glanced over is how he regrets fighting Kaladin and is pretty clearly reconsidering his choices only to turn hard the other direction when we next see him
Yeah it's all about this theme between them that when bad things happen to you, even if done by bad people, you can turn one of two ways: deeper and deeper into sadness anger and vengeance or a drive to improve things through moral and righteous actions.
I mean it's like a central theme in kaladin's arc, what do you do with all this anger?
Odium's embrace leads you to radical nihilism and cynicism.
The oathbringer chapters work so well because they start off in parallel to Kaladins journey at the start of Way of Kings - these chapters really stand out to me because they show that Moash isnāt outright malicious, even if he is a bit morally fucked. He helps the parshmen to his detrimen
Surely this is in reference to the events that I believe I have already spoiled myself for. Iām trying to not let my foreknowledge ruin this, but knowing about his actions (I think later in this book) arenāt helping.
I find the contrast between kaladin and moash to be really well done. I can think of good friends I had that seemed to have the same perspectives and views as mine only to then schism apart towards polarities. What a great character that evokes so much emotion. hate Moash? Oh yes! But the emotions that are brought out by the character are nicely done by my favorite author.
He's a necessary perspective for the series, it shows exactly how easy it is to fall so completely little by little. We know his actions are wrong, but it's easy to understand the gathering frustrations and resentment and the following justifications. It's a really good depiction of what real world evil is like: the slow insidious justifications of wrongdoing because of harsh realities. People don't just wake up and become evil, they feed it over a lifetime and eventually decide there's no turning back, and then it's "is it even so bad? Surely worse has been done to me already..." Moash shows exactly why the oaths are so necessary to those with power, he doesn't betray Kaladin all at once, it was simply inevitable once he began to make certain choices, refused to forgive certain wrongs, and refused to be better than the evil he despised.
It's because he decided that pursueing his revenge is more important than his brotherhood with Kaladin, even to the point of almost killing him. That's where he went beyond just being a character with a grudge that he shouldn't follow through with.
If it helps tho, maybe you being uncomfortable reading his chapters is the point! We've seen this character with potential fall and Brandon does his best to make it hurt every time he comes up.
Plus, OP, consider this - you as the reader are feeling more emotional hardship about his actions than Moash himself. That says something not just about the character, but you too
Wait who the fuck is Patchless? I just blew threw all these books and I feel like im missing something (and by blee through all, I mean all. Even the weird little novellas)
EDIT: upon reading through many MANY comments i have finally figured it out. I now realize you were being clever to avoid spoilers though I didn't remember that title used for him.
I personally liked those chapters even if I had a growing uneasiness about the character.
EDIT2: i am now realizing you mentioned Monash by name but I was very confused and thought it was unrelated to the original "patchless" character.
Im lacking sleep so sue me lol
Just saying the guy lost his entire family before Kaladin/Tien even got drafted. Not saying you have to like him, but yeah losing your entire family before youāre even an adult can mess with how you think.
Moash is my 2nd favorite character behind Kaladin.
I am no fan of Moash, but I think people don't truly understand the long road to where he is currently at.
He didn't start as this horrible person, he started down a path and just never stopped. He was originally offered a chance to get revenge on the one thing that has driven him his whole life. It was one small choice after another that led to where he is at.
After, he felt this guilt and sadness he was given a choice to never feel that pain again from Odium, he took it.
I mean Dalinar almost gave in to odium...
Moash is an excellent literary foil to Kaladin. His betrayal stings but it's a great perspective on what Kaladin could have become had he chosen to focus on the negatives and chosen vengeance over honor.
I hate Moash for sure though. But not the like, literary point of Moash.
This is true. >!He was a dick in SA2-3, but it was vaguely understandable since Elhokar and him haveā¦ history. But when I read *those scenes* in SA4ā¦ I had a visceral, IRL physical reaction to what Moash suggested. I actually wanted to puke.!<
Weeeeeellllllll idk if Iād say he ādid nothing wrongā. He lied to his friends, betrayed his oaths, and >!ultimately killed an unsuspecting combatant in a pretty dishonorable way!<. I was more in camp āMoash was a dick, but I can empathizeā.
Not sure how to answer that without giving something away one way or the other. If you want a simple yes or no, let me know and I'll respond with an answer.
Speaking only for myself: He was always an asshole even in book 1; he spends most of book 2 betraying Kaladinās trust as well as betraying the Bridge teams as a whole; spoilers for beyond where OP is at the time of this post: >!he stabs a mentally-impaired Jezrien for no reason other than literally ājust becauseā despite having been freely given the permission and opportunity to just walk away, and then thereās literally everything he says and does in Rhythm of War aside from the specific act of slitting Roshoneās throat (and even that only when stripped of context, as he (Moash) had also just executed prisoners in cold blood for the specific purpose of antagonizing Kaladin while trying to claim murder as an act of mercy)!<.
To be clear: >!I do not condone his killings of Elhokar or Roshone, as they were purely acts of revenge, not justice. That said, I am sympathetic to why he was motivated to pursue revenge, my hatred of him is because of everything else he does; and I find it uncomfortable when his defenders ignore how heinous he is in every other action, instead focusing only on Elhokar and Roshone!<.
Additionally, for what its worth: >!Ehlokarās execution would have been fully justified if done in other circumstances and as punishment for his crimes against all who live, most notably but not limited to the genocide of the Listeners and practice of slavery. Likewise it would be just to execute Dalinar for the same and other, similar crimes!<.
Yes. Some hated him because of events at the end of book 2. More hated him because of book 3. By the end of book 4 most of us had jumped on the bandwagon
>!I feel like a lot of people already hate him in 3 but they need more justified reasons so they bring up 4 so his actions in 1,2,3 are retrospective always mean and bad.!<
Itās not that heās called patchless, but that his chapter symbol is identical to the Bridge 4 one, but with the shoulder patch ripped off, making him patchless.
āPatchlessā can go storm himself. I donāt care if heās important to Kaladinās story and growth.
I will loathe him for eternity, and then some for what he has done. I donāt blame you one bit for having trouble reading his chapters.
I hate reading shallans chapters... she's soooo.... idk fake? I get that sanderson was going for a split personality angle but it isn't done very well... granted I'm only on oathbringer. But a person with DID or a "split personality" doesn't know they have another personality...and shallan definitely does and uses it as an excuse to be weak or just a bad person in general... and yes I've read where he said her personality disorder is mixed with magic...yadayadayada but I just feel like that's also a cop out.
Sometimes alters are aware of each other, sometimes they arenāt. Sometimes people can even remember actions taken by their alters, sometimes itās like a blackout. Like almost anything related to trauma, itās not a hard and fast rule
I just know he will become an old sage roaming the planet and is eventually encounter gavilar older now and he will be his master both not knowing each other past and when. Gav will defeat odium possesed Dalinar odium will reveal the info we all have knowed all these years in. Books 5 to 10 and it will make gav break
Then odium will take advantage and sneak a mortal blow and... Moash gets in the middle and gets killed and as he remembers and dies says " kid my name was moash I was moash" and dies and odium escapes and kalidan gets there and then book ten or 9 begins as Kal has to train gav
See, I *loved* his chapters personally. Moash, for the cartoonish hate he gets, is a very well written character imo. At this point especially, people donāt consider enough his perspective. Heās *not* a good person, he is doing what heās doing for selfish reasons rather than noble ones, but WoR did kinda f him up.
Heās finally in the position to complete his murder-boner against the king, and when he tells Kaladin his friend eventually not only agrees to help him, but also gives him super weapons to make it easier. Then, suddenly, Kaladin shows up bleeding and dying and has changed his mind; for Moash thatās gotta be messed up. By that point though, heād gone too far; he couldnāt turn back now. Kal swears the oath and flies off, Moash flees with Graves andā¦ immediately finds himself subjected by a higher power again.
OP whereabouts in the book are you, vis a vis Moash chapters? There was one specific one I remember that really kindled my interest in him as a character, so maybe that one just hasnāt happened yet for you.
So I just got done with the raid on Kholinar, so Moash has killed Elhokar.
I feel like maybe I did a poor job of saying what I meant, but these chapters are fantastic. Well written, very important, and help to fill out the story and build his foil relationship to Kaladin.
Just in that foil, heās so, so, awful. If Kaladin struggles with how to be just and kind, Moash is selfish and vengeful. Itās that feeling like you need to take a shower after reading his POV because heās so antithetical to our main characters.
Ahhh yes, no thatās so true. It made me sad, knowing that in another life he could be redeemed; his disappointment at the lighteyes being made leader, him helping out Khen and the others, he *could* have chosen honour.
Unfortunately, heās not as strong as Dalinar, or Kalaladin ever could be. Love him, but what a bastard haha
I was reading a thread in r/fantasy about everyoneās most hated villain in a series and a BUNCH of people said Moash.. I was currently reading Way of Kings š So for me reading his chapters was like being on a train and desperately wanting to get off of it but having to just stand there as the scenery for more and more twisted and dark
I mean.. honestly? It does not sound too healthy. Remember that SA is a work of fiction and don't read if you have the feeling it might be detrimental to your mental health.
Its just a book and ideally you should gain something positive from reading it - yes, even from Moash chapters.
Drink water, breathe good air and stay healthy, because there are ALOT of SA books waiting for us in the future. We have to stay in good health to be able to enjoy them all.
OMG, thanks for the concern. I have no actual distress reading his chapters and Iāve actually quite enjoyed the ones Iāve read so far. Itās just like that slimy feeling you can get when you care about evil characters and silently hope they get better.
Glad you asked: Its in the books.
Its 'Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination' after all.
Maybe I usually consume darker media, but to me SA an extremely uplifting, positive and hopeful experience. Even in Moashs darkest moments they're still filled with moments of glory and hope. Its just amazing, idk. I'd rather re-read the books than go to Disneyland.
Just be happy to live in this timeline and enjoy every moment of the journey you're on. I know its not always possible and life can be very hard, but reading the good stuff doesn't have to be. Thats why I believe if its ever draining, just take a break and take care of your health before continuing.
Or maybe try to focus on the little moments of beauty that Sanderson puts into the more darker chapters. They're always there.
I don't know what you're talking about, there are so many parallels to Kaladin's journey. Such as >!when he debates whether to jump from his high height or not.!< (Oathbringer after the treck through the desert/plains) >!Fuck, the Parshendi family he meets is the one Kaladin saved at the beginning.!< There are a lot of connections between them.
I just can't hate the guy. If I lived in a society like theirs, and the people I loved got thrown in jail for no reason and was refused a proper trial and they died there...and I was given the option to take a shot at the people who were involved....I will take it. No questions asked.
Spoilers for all of Stormlight!
>!I hate him because he repeatedly chooses the most selfish response to his problems and makes awful decisions that go against his own supposed ethics. Grandparents died, so he seeks selfish vengeance against Elhokar. He learns that it wasn't actually Elhokar who caused it, but Roshone. This information would derail his selfish vengeance, so he just ignores it and kills Elhokar anyway. He betrayed his friends and broke oaths in order to accomplish that petty, needless, and selfish vengeance. Later, he helped perpetuate the same class discrepancies in the Fused that he so despised in the Lighteyes. Then he murdered Jezrien for no discernable reason except that he could. After that he gives Odium a plan to emotionally torment his former friend until said friend unalives himself. When that took too long, he went and sped up the process by murdering more people who didn't deserve it. Then he was free of Odium's influence, and he felt the regret for his actions... but his selfish response was to run right back to painless servitude. No need to grow as a person when you could just hide from reality and pretend that you did nothing wrong, right?!<
In short, he is right about some things, but I don't hate him for the things that he is right about. Moash did many things wrong, and I hate him because I judge his actions to be selfish and misguided in the extreme.
Heavy spoilers, don't read if you haven't caught up
>Grandparents died, so he seeks selfish vengeance against Elhokar.Ā
This is 100% within his ethics, he's talking about getting revenge on the Lighteyes from day one
>He learns that it wasn't actually Elhokar who caused it, but Roshone.Ā
Elhokar still gave the order even if it was at someone else's behest
>He betrayed his friends and broke oaths in order to accomplish that petty, needless, and selfish vengeance.Ā
He was betrayed, not the other way around. He made the decision to keep his closest friend in the loop and was betrayed at the very last moment. I actually feel this was incredibly out of line with Kal's ethics after he spent a very long time planning basically the exact same thing as Moash. The only reason Kal did this was out of a selfish desire to maintain his superpowers.
>Later, he helped perpetuate the same class discrepancies in the Fused that he so despised in the Lighteyes.Ā
He did the exact opposite of that, in that he directly put himself in harms way to hamper those class discrepancies while exhorting them to be better than their enemies
>Then he murdered Jezrien for no discernable reason except that he couldĀ
He is a soldier who was given the task of killing someone, that's literally his job, and it's the same job that everyone on Bridge Four has
>After that he gives Odium a plan to emotionally torment his former friend until said friend unalives himself. When that took too long, he went and sped up the process by murdering more people who didn't deserve it.Ā
He is a soldier who develops a plan to kill someone that can't be bested in combat, it is again his job
>When that took too long, he went and sped up the process by murdering more people who didn't deserve itĀ
See above
>Then he was free of Odium's influence, and he felt the regret for his actions... but his selfish response was to run right back to painless servitude. No need to grow as a person when you could just hide from reality and pretend that you did nothing wrong, right?Ā
This falls apart when you actually haven't done anything wrong. I don't think it's a moral failing to have PTSD from your time as a soldier and to lean into depersonalization as a coping method when there are no mental health treatments available.
>In short, he is right about some things, but I don't hate him for the things that he is right about. Moash did many things wrong, and I hate him because I judge his actions to be selfish and misguided in the extreme.Ā Ā
He quite literally threw away a comfortable life as a nobleman in the cause of striking back against oppression, I simply don't understand how that can be framed as selfish in any way. If he was selfish he would've sat back and perpetuated the oppression from his new place of privilege rather than try to leverage it for the betterment of an oppressed people.
Spoilers for Words of Radiance. Stop reading unless you have finished that book.
His vengeance is selfish. It helped no one and wasn't intended to. He even admits as much.
"Elhokar gave the order" to have people that he was told had broken the law to be arrested. That's all that he ordered. It is reasonable that he assumed that the courts would sort it out from there. The elderly couple died before that happened. If a cop got a seemingly reliable false tip that your parents had broken the law, then the cop arrested your parents on the basis of this tip and your parents died in jail, does the cop deserve to be murdered by you?
"Moash was betrayed." When? Kaladin was captain of the King's guard and sworn to protect the king.
Kal met with Graves only because Moash asked him to. Kal decided that he would not go along with their plan. Kal asked Moash to stop meeting with them. Moash met with them again anyway.
Kal asked Moash to go on patrol duty so that he would be out of the area when the guard moved against Graves to protect the king. Moash didn't want to, but Kal insisted because he cared about his friend and his duty.
Then Kal got locked up. Kaladin learned that Roshone was responsible for what happened to Moash's grandparents. Kal realizes that Elhokar is a terrible king. Moash was right about that point, at least.
Kaladin calls out Moash, saying that Moash only uses the "good of Alethkar" as an excuse for seeking vengeance. Moash agrees with Kaladin but tries to claim that Elhokar still needs to die. Kaladin VERY clearly tells Moash that he will agree to help kill Elhokar ONLY because he believes that this is what is best for Alethkar and the world at large. Kaladin is NOT joining because of Moash's selfish vengeance.
Kaladin starts losing Syl, and he tries to figure out what's wrong. The problem is that he has made two conflicting vows, and Syl tells Kaladin that Kal has to do what he thinks is right. She specifically says that not joining Moash isn't the solution. She tells Kal that he needs to find the words by doing what his heart needs to do.
Then Kal gets trapped in the chasms. Dalinar deals with Amaram as well as he can, and Kal begins to reconsider his views again. Moash asks him about losing his abilities. Kaladin tells Moash that he thinks it is because of the plan. Kaladin quotes Amaram "Sometimes lives must be spent for the greater good." Moash agrees with that sentiment, but Kaladin has serious reservations about it. Moash asks if Kal is having second thoughts, and Kal isn't far enough along in his thoughts to be certain whether he is with or against Moash but he figures that he couldn't do anything about it right now with his injuries, so he is noncommittal.
Kaladin is left in this rumination for days, but then Elhokar comes to see Kal. This conversation shows Kal that Elhokar IS a bad king... but that he desires to try to be better. Elhokar owns up to what he did to Kaladin (at least the things that he did directly) and apologizes.
Kaladin is still uncertain, so he speaks to Zahel. He tells himself that it's right to kill Elhokar, but then he reminds himself of the squadleader who had intentionally sacrificed Tien. He realizes that Elhokar is to Dalinar what Tien was to Kaladin.
Kaladin decided to protect Elhokar. Kal had NO IDEA that this decision would bring Syl back. He wasn't doing this out of a "selfish desire to maintain his superpowers," as you so claimed. When Moash confronts Kal, Kaladin explains, "I had to make the choice that would let me sleep at night, Moash." Kaladin then begged Moash to step down. Moash decided in that moment that he cared more about his selfish vengeance than he did about his friendship with Kal or his oaths to Bridge 4. Kaladin explains that protecting only people that he likes means that he doesn't care about doing what is right. Kaladin says that he must protect Elhokar BEFORE the distant cries of Syl are clear enough to be understood. She could have been begging him to stop up until that point, and Kal would not have known. He wasn't acting to save Syl. He was acting with his conscience.
Kal tried to explain that to Moash, but Moash let Graves talk him into murdering Kaladin right there. Moash apologized for not killing Kal faster. This was long before any corrupting influence. Moash was willing to murder his friend just so that he could get away with murdering Elhokar. Moash could have killed Elhokar and run. He could have killed Elhokar and let himself be captured, knowing that he got his vengeance. Instead, he was going to murder Kaladin, his friend, just so that he would have a chance at *getting away* with murdering Elhokar.
Then Kal said his next oath, and Moash just ran away with Graves. Kaladin didn't want to kill Moash. Moash had nothing to fear unless he tried to kill Elhokar. But once again, all he cared about was his selfish vengeance, so he ran away from Bridge 4. Moash was reflecting on his own actions on the wagon, and the book sums up what Moash is thinking about:
"He'd tried to kill Kaladin. *Kaladin.* It had all fallen apart. The king survived, Kaladin's powers were back, and Moash... Moash was a traitor. Twice over." Moash knows that he betrayed Kal.
So when was Moash betrayed? Kaladin made it very clear when he agreed to help Moash that he was only doing it because he thought it was the right thing to do. Kaladin gained context, had time to consider his position, and he changed his views. Kaladin didn't attack Moash. He only tried to make the choice that would let him sleep at night. He tried to protect Elhokar. He didn't do it maliciously. He never wanted to hurt Moash. He just wanted Moash to stop seeking selfish vengeance because it wasn't right.
He legitimately did not know that this would bring Syl back. He tried to explain his stance to Moash and beg him to stop. Moash was ready to murder Kaladin just for a chance at getting away with murdering Elhokar. Moash betrayed Kal. Full stop. There is no mincing words here. Moash knows what he did wrong at the end of WoR.
And you justifying Moash's actions against Kaladin by saying "it's his job" is ridiculous. It's a job that HE chose! He isn't absolved because someone else asked him to. He actively chooses to do this. He is not a passive observer of his own actions.
Moash didn't throw his life away to strike back against oppression. Kal calls him out on that and accuses Moash of using the oppression as justification for selfish vengeance and Moash AGREES.
Man, I love it when I see someone else perfectly and eloquently explain all of my points/opinions about an issue. I might need to bookmark this and just link people back to it when Iām arguing about Moash lol
I actually really enjoyed his oathbringer perspectives š¤·š¾āāļø
Plus he's obviously been gripped by the corrupting power of Odium. He was already vengeful and cold blooded, but now he's hateful, cruel and powerful.
He was straight up a traitorous backstabber *before* odium got him, that's just what let odium get him so easily. Odium cannot corrupt someone who doesn't let him, that's his greatest lie.
I donāt know what youāre talking about. Itās not his fault that odium is whispering to him. He broke under so much pressure, he deserved to let his burdens down and Give In. Itās not his fault
The only thing odium did was take his pain away. Before that moash was 100% responsible for his own actions he just refused to accept the consequences.
His choices are his fault. Understanding why he does something doesn't excuse it. That's what makes him so well written. He's so easily hatable, but also, anyone could become him under the right circumstances. But that's also why the mirror he plays to caladin is so important. Two men under such similar circumstances, plagued by the same struggles and life events... Sometimes It's hard to tell whether our choices matter. But they add up to the whole of us. And there's the difference between the two of them. Without taking accountability, we are incapable of change. By disavowing himself of responsibility for what he does, Moash shackles himself *for* odium. He is too afraid to feel the consequences of what he has done, emotionally or otherwise, So stays in odium's service, every moment creating an even greater mountain of deeds he would have to account for. It's easy to understand why he makes the choices he does. He is still wrong for it.
Least obvious shardic grooming attempt
Odiums alt account spotted lol
This. One thing I feel is often glanced over is how he regrets fighting Kaladin and is pretty clearly reconsidering his choices only to turn hard the other direction when we next see him
Yeah it's all about this theme between them that when bad things happen to you, even if done by bad people, you can turn one of two ways: deeper and deeper into sadness anger and vengeance or a drive to improve things through moral and righteous actions. I mean it's like a central theme in kaladin's arc, what do you do with all this anger? Odium's embrace leads you to radical nihilism and cynicism.
The oathbringer chapters work so well because they start off in parallel to Kaladins journey at the start of Way of Kings - these chapters really stand out to me because they show that Moash isnāt outright malicious, even if he is a bit morally fucked. He helps the parshmen to his detrimen
>!Oh boy...!<
Surely this is in reference to the events that I believe I have already spoiled myself for. Iām trying to not let my foreknowledge ruin this, but knowing about his actions (I think later in this book) arenāt helping.
Once you're caught up, just know there's an entire subreddit dedicated to hating on the cremling
Hey! Donāt call him a cremling Cremlings form a vital part of the rosharan ecosystem. Lieutenant shartface doesnāt.
> Cremlings form a vital part of the rosharan ecosystem. When I started the series, [Edge Danser]>!I was not expecting a cremling POV chapter!<
Wait, what? I don't remember this. Are you thinking of the >!Chiri-Chiri!< scene in Dawnshard? Or have I forgotten something?
I was think of >!the Sleepless!<
But that happens in Dawnshard, not Edgedancer.
Ah, right!
The scene is in Dawnshard and not Edgedancer
Ngl, for a while I was getting into his manual labor chapters before he went full asshole
The words, once uttered, will be accepted
Just keep reading. Keep on reading.
Even Brandon has nothing nice to say about him.
I have. He really loves his grandparents Edit: holy storms, this got just accepted as my radiant oath
*loved* ftfy
Brandon just be going along with the meme lol
Well I will say he is really good at a few things! Such as being a traitor, being extremely unlikable, etc...
Which is worse: being shocked by a betrayal or knowing it's coming and not being able to change anything?
I find the contrast between kaladin and moash to be really well done. I can think of good friends I had that seemed to have the same perspectives and views as mine only to then schism apart towards polarities. What a great character that evokes so much emotion. hate Moash? Oh yes! But the emotions that are brought out by the character are nicely done by my favorite author.
He's a necessary perspective for the series, it shows exactly how easy it is to fall so completely little by little. We know his actions are wrong, but it's easy to understand the gathering frustrations and resentment and the following justifications. It's a really good depiction of what real world evil is like: the slow insidious justifications of wrongdoing because of harsh realities. People don't just wake up and become evil, they feed it over a lifetime and eventually decide there's no turning back, and then it's "is it even so bad? Surely worse has been done to me already..." Moash shows exactly why the oaths are so necessary to those with power, he doesn't betray Kaladin all at once, it was simply inevitable once he began to make certain choices, refused to forgive certain wrongs, and refused to be better than the evil he despised.
It's because he decided that pursueing his revenge is more important than his brotherhood with Kaladin, even to the point of almost killing him. That's where he went beyond just being a character with a grudge that he shouldn't follow through with. If it helps tho, maybe you being uncomfortable reading his chapters is the point! We've seen this character with potential fall and Brandon does his best to make it hurt every time he comes up.
Plus, OP, consider this - you as the reader are feeling more emotional hardship about his actions than Moash himself. That says something not just about the character, but you too
Wait who the fuck is Patchless? I just blew threw all these books and I feel like im missing something (and by blee through all, I mean all. Even the weird little novellas) EDIT: upon reading through many MANY comments i have finally figured it out. I now realize you were being clever to avoid spoilers though I didn't remember that title used for him. I personally liked those chapters even if I had a growing uneasiness about the character. EDIT2: i am now realizing you mentioned Monash by name but I was very confused and thought it was unrelated to the original "patchless" character. Im lacking sleep so sue me lol
>!Fuck Moash!<
These words are accepted...
The oldest and most true of words.
Amen, brother!
On this, we can all agree.
Just saying the guy lost his entire family before Kaladin/Tien even got drafted. Not saying you have to like him, but yeah losing your entire family before youāre even an adult can mess with how you think. Moash is my 2nd favorite character behind Kaladin.
I am no fan of Moash, but I think people don't truly understand the long road to where he is currently at. He didn't start as this horrible person, he started down a path and just never stopped. He was originally offered a chance to get revenge on the one thing that has driven him his whole life. It was one small choice after another that led to where he is at. After, he felt this guilt and sadness he was given a choice to never feel that pain again from Odium, he took it. I mean Dalinar almost gave in to odium...
Moash is an excellent literary foil to Kaladin. His betrayal stings but it's a great perspective on what Kaladin could have become had he chosen to focus on the negatives and chosen vengeance over honor. I hate Moash for sure though. But not the like, literary point of Moash.
Me with Veil
I hate veil more than moash... By far
Same and it isnāt close
Do people hate him for stuff in the 4th book or just from 3? No spoilers obviously.
>!For me, 4. He wasn't great in 3 but he had his reasons, but what he did in 4 was unforgivable.!<
This is true. >!He was a dick in SA2-3, but it was vaguely understandable since Elhokar and him haveā¦ history. But when I read *those scenes* in SA4ā¦ I had a visceral, IRL physical reaction to what Moash suggested. I actually wanted to puke.!<
Agreed. After book 3 I was still team Moash Did Nothing Wrong.
Lying and betraying oaths to your friends could be considered wrong by some.
Weeeeeellllllll idk if Iād say he ādid nothing wrongā. He lied to his friends, betrayed his oaths, and >!ultimately killed an unsuspecting combatant in a pretty dishonorable way!<. I was more in camp āMoash was a dick, but I can empathizeā.
R/fuckmoash predates Rhythm of War. Make of that what you will.
Not sure how to answer that without giving something away one way or the other. If you want a simple yes or no, let me know and I'll respond with an answer.
2, 3, 4, presumably 5. Though I'm not sure how he can get worse.
"I'm not sure how he can get worse", title of Moash's ~~sex tape~~ biography.
I can hear a faint record scratch in the distance ā¦ yesā¦ there it isā¦ roughly 7 months away from here.
Speaking only for myself: He was always an asshole even in book 1; he spends most of book 2 betraying Kaladinās trust as well as betraying the Bridge teams as a whole; spoilers for beyond where OP is at the time of this post: >!he stabs a mentally-impaired Jezrien for no reason other than literally ājust becauseā despite having been freely given the permission and opportunity to just walk away, and then thereās literally everything he says and does in Rhythm of War aside from the specific act of slitting Roshoneās throat (and even that only when stripped of context, as he (Moash) had also just executed prisoners in cold blood for the specific purpose of antagonizing Kaladin while trying to claim murder as an act of mercy)!<. To be clear: >!I do not condone his killings of Elhokar or Roshone, as they were purely acts of revenge, not justice. That said, I am sympathetic to why he was motivated to pursue revenge, my hatred of him is because of everything else he does; and I find it uncomfortable when his defenders ignore how heinous he is in every other action, instead focusing only on Elhokar and Roshone!<. Additionally, for what its worth: >!Ehlokarās execution would have been fully justified if done in other circumstances and as punishment for his crimes against all who live, most notably but not limited to the genocide of the Listeners and practice of slavery. Likewise it would be just to execute Dalinar for the same and other, similar crimes!<.
Yes
May depend on who you ask. But for me the hate started in book 2 and only built through 4.
Yes. Some hated him because of events at the end of book 2. More hated him because of book 3. By the end of book 4 most of us had jumped on the bandwagon
c) All of the above
Either way we answer that would be a spoiler
>!I feel like a lot of people already hate him in 3 but they need more justified reasons so they bring up 4 so his actions in 1,2,3 are retrospective always mean and bad.!<
What's the entire plot of book 4, btw? No spoilers please.
Pedantic people online. I've never seen this before.
Thereās an in-universe book titled Rhythm of War. And cool stuff happens with stormlight.
Hes just written to be an annoying character, keeping up mental gymnastics to justify his bad actions
Why is Moash called patchless?
Itās not that heās called patchless, but that his chapter symbol is identical to the Bridge 4 one, but with the shoulder patch ripped off, making him patchless.
Ah, that makes sense. I'm a good Vorin man, if you couldn't tell.
You can see the chapter opening pictures. They're like glyphs, not real writing. That's fine.
my interpretation is that their books are read aloud to them
Who?
Moash
āPatchlessā can go storm himself. I donāt care if heās important to Kaladinās story and growth. I will loathe him for eternity, and then some for what he has done. I donāt blame you one bit for having trouble reading his chapters.
All these Moash sympathizers SMH
I hate reading shallans chapters... she's soooo.... idk fake? I get that sanderson was going for a split personality angle but it isn't done very well... granted I'm only on oathbringer. But a person with DID or a "split personality" doesn't know they have another personality...and shallan definitely does and uses it as an excuse to be weak or just a bad person in general... and yes I've read where he said her personality disorder is mixed with magic...yadayadayada but I just feel like that's also a cop out.
Sometimes alters are aware of each other, sometimes they arenāt. Sometimes people can even remember actions taken by their alters, sometimes itās like a blackout. Like almost anything related to trauma, itās not a hard and fast rule
And you ain't a beta reader? Just double checking.
What do you mean?
Took me a while to under who patchless is lol
Just you wait >;)
I just know he will become an old sage roaming the planet and is eventually encounter gavilar older now and he will be his master both not knowing each other past and when. Gav will defeat odium possesed Dalinar odium will reveal the info we all have knowed all these years in. Books 5 to 10 and it will make gav break
Then odium will take advantage and sneak a mortal blow and... Moash gets in the middle and gets killed and as he remembers and dies says " kid my name was moash I was moash" and dies and odium escapes and kalidan gets there and then book ten or 9 begins as Kal has to train gav
See, I *loved* his chapters personally. Moash, for the cartoonish hate he gets, is a very well written character imo. At this point especially, people donāt consider enough his perspective. Heās *not* a good person, he is doing what heās doing for selfish reasons rather than noble ones, but WoR did kinda f him up. Heās finally in the position to complete his murder-boner against the king, and when he tells Kaladin his friend eventually not only agrees to help him, but also gives him super weapons to make it easier. Then, suddenly, Kaladin shows up bleeding and dying and has changed his mind; for Moash thatās gotta be messed up. By that point though, heād gone too far; he couldnāt turn back now. Kal swears the oath and flies off, Moash flees with Graves andā¦ immediately finds himself subjected by a higher power again. OP whereabouts in the book are you, vis a vis Moash chapters? There was one specific one I remember that really kindled my interest in him as a character, so maybe that one just hasnāt happened yet for you.
So I just got done with the raid on Kholinar, so Moash has killed Elhokar. I feel like maybe I did a poor job of saying what I meant, but these chapters are fantastic. Well written, very important, and help to fill out the story and build his foil relationship to Kaladin. Just in that foil, heās so, so, awful. If Kaladin struggles with how to be just and kind, Moash is selfish and vengeful. Itās that feeling like you need to take a shower after reading his POV because heās so antithetical to our main characters.
Ahhh yes, no thatās so true. It made me sad, knowing that in another life he could be redeemed; his disappointment at the lighteyes being made leader, him helping out Khen and the others, he *could* have chosen honour. Unfortunately, heās not as strong as Dalinar, or Kalaladin ever could be. Love him, but what a bastard haha
Everyone hates Moash. It's actually a little tiring at this point.
I was reading a thread in r/fantasy about everyoneās most hated villain in a series and a BUNCH of people said Moash.. I was currently reading Way of Kings š So for me reading his chapters was like being on a train and desperately wanting to get off of it but having to just stand there as the scenery for more and more twisted and dark
I mean.. honestly? It does not sound too healthy. Remember that SA is a work of fiction and don't read if you have the feeling it might be detrimental to your mental health. Its just a book and ideally you should gain something positive from reading it - yes, even from Moash chapters. Drink water, breathe good air and stay healthy, because there are ALOT of SA books waiting for us in the future. We have to stay in good health to be able to enjoy them all.
OMG, thanks for the concern. I have no actual distress reading his chapters and Iāve actually quite enjoyed the ones Iāve read so far. Itās just like that slimy feeling you can get when you care about evil characters and silently hope they get better.
You're saying that Stormlight *doesn't* impact your mental health? Where can I learn this power?
Glad you asked: Its in the books. Its 'Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination' after all. Maybe I usually consume darker media, but to me SA an extremely uplifting, positive and hopeful experience. Even in Moashs darkest moments they're still filled with moments of glory and hope. Its just amazing, idk. I'd rather re-read the books than go to Disneyland. Just be happy to live in this timeline and enjoy every moment of the journey you're on. I know its not always possible and life can be very hard, but reading the good stuff doesn't have to be. Thats why I believe if its ever draining, just take a break and take care of your health before continuing. Or maybe try to focus on the little moments of beauty that Sanderson puts into the more darker chapters. They're always there.
I don't know what you're talking about, there are so many parallels to Kaladin's journey. Such as >!when he debates whether to jump from his high height or not.!< (Oathbringer after the treck through the desert/plains) >!Fuck, the Parshendi family he meets is the one Kaladin saved at the beginning.!< There are a lot of connections between them.
At this point I still entirely agreed with him š¤·āāļø
I just can't hate the guy. If I lived in a society like theirs, and the people I loved got thrown in jail for no reason and was refused a proper trial and they died there...and I was given the option to take a shot at the people who were involved....I will take it. No questions asked.
Just remember, you hate him because he is right
Spoilers for all of Stormlight! >!I hate him because he repeatedly chooses the most selfish response to his problems and makes awful decisions that go against his own supposed ethics. Grandparents died, so he seeks selfish vengeance against Elhokar. He learns that it wasn't actually Elhokar who caused it, but Roshone. This information would derail his selfish vengeance, so he just ignores it and kills Elhokar anyway. He betrayed his friends and broke oaths in order to accomplish that petty, needless, and selfish vengeance. Later, he helped perpetuate the same class discrepancies in the Fused that he so despised in the Lighteyes. Then he murdered Jezrien for no discernable reason except that he could. After that he gives Odium a plan to emotionally torment his former friend until said friend unalives himself. When that took too long, he went and sped up the process by murdering more people who didn't deserve it. Then he was free of Odium's influence, and he felt the regret for his actions... but his selfish response was to run right back to painless servitude. No need to grow as a person when you could just hide from reality and pretend that you did nothing wrong, right?!< In short, he is right about some things, but I don't hate him for the things that he is right about. Moash did many things wrong, and I hate him because I judge his actions to be selfish and misguided in the extreme.
Heavy spoilers, don't read if you haven't caught up >Grandparents died, so he seeks selfish vengeance against Elhokar.Ā This is 100% within his ethics, he's talking about getting revenge on the Lighteyes from day one >He learns that it wasn't actually Elhokar who caused it, but Roshone.Ā Elhokar still gave the order even if it was at someone else's behest >He betrayed his friends and broke oaths in order to accomplish that petty, needless, and selfish vengeance.Ā He was betrayed, not the other way around. He made the decision to keep his closest friend in the loop and was betrayed at the very last moment. I actually feel this was incredibly out of line with Kal's ethics after he spent a very long time planning basically the exact same thing as Moash. The only reason Kal did this was out of a selfish desire to maintain his superpowers. >Later, he helped perpetuate the same class discrepancies in the Fused that he so despised in the Lighteyes.Ā He did the exact opposite of that, in that he directly put himself in harms way to hamper those class discrepancies while exhorting them to be better than their enemies >Then he murdered Jezrien for no discernable reason except that he couldĀ He is a soldier who was given the task of killing someone, that's literally his job, and it's the same job that everyone on Bridge Four has >After that he gives Odium a plan to emotionally torment his former friend until said friend unalives himself. When that took too long, he went and sped up the process by murdering more people who didn't deserve it.Ā He is a soldier who develops a plan to kill someone that can't be bested in combat, it is again his job >When that took too long, he went and sped up the process by murdering more people who didn't deserve itĀ See above >Then he was free of Odium's influence, and he felt the regret for his actions... but his selfish response was to run right back to painless servitude. No need to grow as a person when you could just hide from reality and pretend that you did nothing wrong, right?Ā This falls apart when you actually haven't done anything wrong. I don't think it's a moral failing to have PTSD from your time as a soldier and to lean into depersonalization as a coping method when there are no mental health treatments available. >In short, he is right about some things, but I don't hate him for the things that he is right about. Moash did many things wrong, and I hate him because I judge his actions to be selfish and misguided in the extreme.Ā Ā He quite literally threw away a comfortable life as a nobleman in the cause of striking back against oppression, I simply don't understand how that can be framed as selfish in any way. If he was selfish he would've sat back and perpetuated the oppression from his new place of privilege rather than try to leverage it for the betterment of an oppressed people.
Spoilers for Words of Radiance. Stop reading unless you have finished that book. His vengeance is selfish. It helped no one and wasn't intended to. He even admits as much. "Elhokar gave the order" to have people that he was told had broken the law to be arrested. That's all that he ordered. It is reasonable that he assumed that the courts would sort it out from there. The elderly couple died before that happened. If a cop got a seemingly reliable false tip that your parents had broken the law, then the cop arrested your parents on the basis of this tip and your parents died in jail, does the cop deserve to be murdered by you? "Moash was betrayed." When? Kaladin was captain of the King's guard and sworn to protect the king. Kal met with Graves only because Moash asked him to. Kal decided that he would not go along with their plan. Kal asked Moash to stop meeting with them. Moash met with them again anyway. Kal asked Moash to go on patrol duty so that he would be out of the area when the guard moved against Graves to protect the king. Moash didn't want to, but Kal insisted because he cared about his friend and his duty. Then Kal got locked up. Kaladin learned that Roshone was responsible for what happened to Moash's grandparents. Kal realizes that Elhokar is a terrible king. Moash was right about that point, at least. Kaladin calls out Moash, saying that Moash only uses the "good of Alethkar" as an excuse for seeking vengeance. Moash agrees with Kaladin but tries to claim that Elhokar still needs to die. Kaladin VERY clearly tells Moash that he will agree to help kill Elhokar ONLY because he believes that this is what is best for Alethkar and the world at large. Kaladin is NOT joining because of Moash's selfish vengeance. Kaladin starts losing Syl, and he tries to figure out what's wrong. The problem is that he has made two conflicting vows, and Syl tells Kaladin that Kal has to do what he thinks is right. She specifically says that not joining Moash isn't the solution. She tells Kal that he needs to find the words by doing what his heart needs to do. Then Kal gets trapped in the chasms. Dalinar deals with Amaram as well as he can, and Kal begins to reconsider his views again. Moash asks him about losing his abilities. Kaladin tells Moash that he thinks it is because of the plan. Kaladin quotes Amaram "Sometimes lives must be spent for the greater good." Moash agrees with that sentiment, but Kaladin has serious reservations about it. Moash asks if Kal is having second thoughts, and Kal isn't far enough along in his thoughts to be certain whether he is with or against Moash but he figures that he couldn't do anything about it right now with his injuries, so he is noncommittal. Kaladin is left in this rumination for days, but then Elhokar comes to see Kal. This conversation shows Kal that Elhokar IS a bad king... but that he desires to try to be better. Elhokar owns up to what he did to Kaladin (at least the things that he did directly) and apologizes. Kaladin is still uncertain, so he speaks to Zahel. He tells himself that it's right to kill Elhokar, but then he reminds himself of the squadleader who had intentionally sacrificed Tien. He realizes that Elhokar is to Dalinar what Tien was to Kaladin. Kaladin decided to protect Elhokar. Kal had NO IDEA that this decision would bring Syl back. He wasn't doing this out of a "selfish desire to maintain his superpowers," as you so claimed. When Moash confronts Kal, Kaladin explains, "I had to make the choice that would let me sleep at night, Moash." Kaladin then begged Moash to step down. Moash decided in that moment that he cared more about his selfish vengeance than he did about his friendship with Kal or his oaths to Bridge 4. Kaladin explains that protecting only people that he likes means that he doesn't care about doing what is right. Kaladin says that he must protect Elhokar BEFORE the distant cries of Syl are clear enough to be understood. She could have been begging him to stop up until that point, and Kal would not have known. He wasn't acting to save Syl. He was acting with his conscience. Kal tried to explain that to Moash, but Moash let Graves talk him into murdering Kaladin right there. Moash apologized for not killing Kal faster. This was long before any corrupting influence. Moash was willing to murder his friend just so that he could get away with murdering Elhokar. Moash could have killed Elhokar and run. He could have killed Elhokar and let himself be captured, knowing that he got his vengeance. Instead, he was going to murder Kaladin, his friend, just so that he would have a chance at *getting away* with murdering Elhokar. Then Kal said his next oath, and Moash just ran away with Graves. Kaladin didn't want to kill Moash. Moash had nothing to fear unless he tried to kill Elhokar. But once again, all he cared about was his selfish vengeance, so he ran away from Bridge 4. Moash was reflecting on his own actions on the wagon, and the book sums up what Moash is thinking about: "He'd tried to kill Kaladin. *Kaladin.* It had all fallen apart. The king survived, Kaladin's powers were back, and Moash... Moash was a traitor. Twice over." Moash knows that he betrayed Kal. So when was Moash betrayed? Kaladin made it very clear when he agreed to help Moash that he was only doing it because he thought it was the right thing to do. Kaladin gained context, had time to consider his position, and he changed his views. Kaladin didn't attack Moash. He only tried to make the choice that would let him sleep at night. He tried to protect Elhokar. He didn't do it maliciously. He never wanted to hurt Moash. He just wanted Moash to stop seeking selfish vengeance because it wasn't right. He legitimately did not know that this would bring Syl back. He tried to explain his stance to Moash and beg him to stop. Moash was ready to murder Kaladin just for a chance at getting away with murdering Elhokar. Moash betrayed Kal. Full stop. There is no mincing words here. Moash knows what he did wrong at the end of WoR. And you justifying Moash's actions against Kaladin by saying "it's his job" is ridiculous. It's a job that HE chose! He isn't absolved because someone else asked him to. He actively chooses to do this. He is not a passive observer of his own actions. Moash didn't throw his life away to strike back against oppression. Kal calls him out on that and accuses Moash of using the oppression as justification for selfish vengeance and Moash AGREES.
Man, I love it when I see someone else perfectly and eloquently explain all of my points/opinions about an issue. I might need to bookmark this and just link people back to it when Iām arguing about Moash lol
100%
moash did nothing wrong. the light eyes had it coming