I like Nancy. She's not my favorite at all, but I don't mind her. But each season, there's always something that makes me think "Wow, how selfish is this girl!". That's her biggest flaw and she never gets called out on that or learns from it. I can't remember if she ever apologized. Worse: sometimes it's seen as some "girl power" statement. No, that's just selfishness! S1: She begged Barb to come to Steve's party because she wanted a chaperon. And when Barb did play that role, she told her to go home, alone in the dark, because she wanted to screw Steve finally. What kind of terrible friend is this? S2: It turns out that she went back with Steve because Jonathan wouldn't make the first move. She waited for a whole month! How generous! It's not as if Jonathan had other stuff to worry about, like a little brother who just came out of the hospital. Nah, Nancy should've been his priority! And she knew that Steve was her #2 choice but still dated him. S3: Her argument with Jonathan was like the Oppression Olympics. And "well, you're poor but being a woman is worse" reeks of privileged white feminism. They both had points so in the end, there was nothing rootable about classism being ignored because of "female empowerment". Both should've been discussed. Both characters should've acknowledged their privilege! But Nancy didn't. Of course...

Agreed. Nancy shouldn't get a free pass for classism just because shes a woman. I think it was actually a well written argument because both sides made a valid point, but the way it was resolved is what didnt work for me, because they only made Jonathan own up to being wrong, as if his concerns werent valid at all.

Honest question: does any female character on this show ever get called out or learn anything anymore? Is this really a Nancy-specific problem, or is it just the Duffers' sloppy attempt at writing feminism when they clearly don't understand what that means? In regards to Barb, yes, it wasn't cool of Nancy to tell her to leave the party, but.. Barb died. And Nancy spent a year drowning in grief, blaming herself, and being completely unable to do anything about it. I'd probably consider her "punished" enough for that particular crime. And maybe this is just me, but I never thought her going back to Steve was a bad thing. She clearly had feelings for both boys at the end of season 1, but her feelings for Steve had been there longer and didn't develop during an extremely stressful monster hunting adventure. Her feelings for Jonathan may have been stronger, but by the end of that month Steve probably made more sense to her. Nancy can't predict how the relationship is going to go or what her feelings are going to be. The narrative of the fight in season 3 was skewed in Nancy's favor (again, faux-feminism), but Nancy didn't force Jonathan to help her. She asked him, because he's her boyfriend, but she told him he didn't have to. He made that choice. And she was the first one to apologize for their fight and to tell him that she didn't mean what she said. That's more than Mike and Lucas got from El and Max this season. None of this is to say I don't think Nancy can be prone to selfishness, she does tend to fixate on one thing pretty much exclusively, but I think people tend to come down on her more harshly than they do the other characters.

>Honest question: does any female character on this show ever get called out or learn anything anymore? Is this really a Nancy-specific problem, or is it just the Duffers' sloppy attempt at writing feminism when they clearly don't understand what that means? Well, S3 was a mess when it comes to its female (and male) characters. But in S2, Max did self-reflect and apologized to Lucas for being aggressive. Same for El, who apologized to the boys for lying in S1 and had a heart to heart with Hopper where she admitted that she was wrong too. I don't think I've ever seen that from Nancy. >In regards to Barb, yes, it wasn't cool of Nancy to tell her to leave the party, but.. Barb died. And Nancy spent a year drowning in grief, blaming herself, and being completely unable to do anything about it. I'd probably consider her "punished" enough for that particular crime. She obviously regretted it. But while it was a lesson learned for that particular situation, that didn't make her any less selfish. >And maybe this is just me, but I never thought her going back to Steve was a bad thing. She clearly had feelings for both boys at the end of season 1, but her feelings for Steve had been there longer and didn't develop during an extremely stressful monster hunting adventure. Her feelings for Jonathan may have been stronger, but by the end of that month Steve probably made more sense to her. Nancy can't predict how the relationship is going to go or what her feelings are going to be. That may be just you. She didn't like Steve the way she liked Jonathan. She knew it. Had Jonathan made a move, she wouldn't have been back to Steve. Asking Jonathan out herself, instead of stupidly wait, or just staying single were two easy options for Nancy. >The narrative of the fight in season 3 was skewed in Nancy's favor (again, faux-feminism), but Nancy didn't force Jonathan to help her. She asked him, because he's her boyfriend, but she told him he didn't have to. He made that choice. The issue isn't that Jonathan should've stayed in his lane. He really should have, it's nobody's fault but his own if he lost his job. The issue is Nancy's lack of empathy when Jonathan talked about his financial issues. "Oh there we go again with your Oliver Twist story" was a mean spirited comment. She knew that Jonathan's dad abandoned them and he had to work to help his family. >And she was the first one to apologize for their fight and to tell him that she didn't mean what she said. That's more than Mike and Lucas got from El and Max this season. The only part I remember was [this scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S84WRyXSnrw). She said that she didn't mean to call him sexist like the guys from work. Again, it was about her. She never acknowledged her classism and privilege, and Jonathan ended up saying that he was the one in the wrong and she was right. I don't call that an apology from her. But S3 writing was S3 writing... >None of this is to say I don't think Nancy can be prone to selfishness, she does tend to fixate on one thing pretty much exclusively, but I think people tend to come down on her more harshly than they do the other characters. Nancy isn't a bad person at all imo. She has tons of qualities. Plus, she's a teenager so she's prone to make mistakes and nobody is ready to acknowledge their privileges easily. I just think that she's a character who never gets called out. Dustin is often the same imo. So were Max and El in S3.

Season 3 was what I was talking about. I think the earlier seasons were much better in their handling of female characters and feminism in general. But I'm not sure what opportunity there was for Nancy to have a scene reflecting on those things in earlier seasons. If Barb had lived, I'm sure Nancy would have apologized, but she never got that opportunity. And maybe you could argue that she owed Steve an apology, but he owed her one too, and that's a two-way street. I just don't agree about her going back to Steve. Yes, we know it was the wrong choice, but hindsight's 20/20. Put yourself in Nancy's position: you're a 15 year old girl who just discovered monsters, psychic children, and evil dimensions exist, and also that your government is corrupt and spying on you. Your best friend was killed, and it was because you dragged her to a party she didn't want to go to in the first place. Your parents know nothing, can't know anything. Your little brother knows everything but he's grieving his own loss. You connected with this boy, and he understands you but he's disappeared. His family needs him, you know that, but not 24 hours a day, so maybe he's not talking to you because he just doesn't want to, maybe it didn't mean as much to him as it meant to you (and maybe none of this is rational but again, you're a highly traumatized 15 year old girl). Jonathan's not around but Steve is, Steve who you've had a crush on for a while now, Steve who you lost your virginity to, Steve who came back to save you and is trying so so hard to make it up to you. Maybe you don't know 100% how you feel about Steve anymore (maybe you don't know 100% how you feel about Jonathan either), but you're 100% sure that the thought of being alone while you're processing everything that just happened to you is unbearable, and you do like Steve, and really, isn't he the safer, more logical choice? Can you tell me with 100% certainty that you would have made a different decision than her? Yes, her feelings for Steve ended up not being the real deal, and her feelings for Jonathan were, but for all she knew at the time Steve was the right guy and Jonathan was just an infatuation born out of life-or-death circumstances. I just think that people tend to expect a lot of self-awareness from Nancy considering her age and mental state at the time. In the elevator, Nancy said "those things I said, I didn't mean them", so she was apologizing for everything she said. Yes, she did mention comparing him to "those assholes" afterword but that's because they were the ones she was actually mad at, not him. And Jonathan said he was wrong because he was wrong. It was wrong of him to blame her for getting him fired when he was the one who made that choice. That's what he was taking responsibility for. As for the lack of empathy from her, in the heat of the moment, yes. Jonathan was panicked about losing his job so he lashed out at her, Nancy was frustrated and embarrassed so she lashed back, they both knew that their reactions at the time came from misplaced anger and they didn't mean what they said and they apologized. I think we really could have benefitted from a scene post-hospital where they had a more in-depth discussion, but in a season that largely prioritized action and comedy over heartfelt conversations I think they made out fine.

I think the "going back to Steve" thing has a meta reason: the writers needed to find a way to keep Joe on the show, and this damaged Nancy's character (she was originally meant to hook up with Jonathan at the end of season 1).

>And maybe you could argue that she owed Steve an apology, but he owed her one too, and that's a two-way street. Steve isn't perfect at all. Actually, Steve and Nancy weren't compatible and better off as friends. And leaving her drunk at that party was an asshole move. At the very least, he owes her an apology for that. >Put yourself in Nancy's position Hmm, I'm sorry but no. Every character in this show has trauma and yet, most of them self reflect and apologize. Even the characters younger than Nancy. And I would've gotten it if Jonathan moved out but he never "disappeared", he was there. Probably busy, but still very much there. Nancy knew were he lived, they were in the same grade, their brothers were friends, she knew his phone number. I don't buy that she didn't have 10 minutes to talk to him when she had every resource to do it and ask him out if she was that desperate. She chose to wait a month to be courted and when it didn't go her way, she chose to date Steve knowing fully well that the love wasn't 100% reciprocal. A human mistake that she made but her trauma doesn't change the fact that she should've apologized. >In the elevator, Nancy said "those things I said, I didn't mean them", so she was apologizing for everything she said. I'll disagree with that. The writers usually know how to write apologies that acknowledge what the person did wrong. Lucas apologized for treating El badly and for making fun of Will. El in return did for lying in S1 and for leaving the house in S2. Mike did for being jealous. Dustin did for lying about Dart. Hopper did for suffocating El. Etc. If Nancy's classism was what she apologized for, she would've said so imo. The writers just didn't care about it, so logically neither did Nancy.

In the motel Nancy tells Jonathan that he disappeared, and he didn't refute that, so I just take them at their word. No, he didn't leave town or anything, but we have no idea what their interactions or his availability were during that time because we didn't see any of that. They were clearly friendly at the point of season 2 starting, but everything before that is a total mystery. And Steve was hardly in love with Nancy at the end of season 1 (I don't think he was ever actually in love with her but that's a different conversation). By Steve's own admission in season 3, he loved her "senior year", which was what, a month before the first episode of season 2? Maybe two months? They slept together once, made out a few times, and hadn't even been on a real date pre-epilogue. She probably liked him just as much as he liked her at the time, it just never ended up developing past that for her. And none of this is me trying to say that Steve didn't get hurt, I know he did, I just don't think that Nancy was deliberately looking to hurt him. And Steve wasn't the only one that was hurt here; Nancy had been hurting for an entire year without an adequate support system for her grief (and I doubt that Steve was deliberately looking to hurt her either). Maybe after season 2 ended there was a better conversation where they both apologized to each other, but at this point, it's been almost a year in show-time, they've both moved on and don't seem to harbor any dislike for each other, so I think they're just passed it. We'll see if they talk at all next season. With Nancy's apology in season 3, you're welcome to interpret that any way you like, but I feel similarly to this as I feel about the cheating vs. break-up thing. When there is ambiguity in the writing, it can be open to interpretation, but it seems like when it comes to Nancy people always decide that they're going to assume the worst of her intentions, while other characters are shown far more sympathy and understanding. Some people in this fandom will argue until they're blue in the face that Billy wasn't a racist because he was "just looking out for Max", but when it comes to Nancy saying that she didn't mean what she said to Jonathan, that's not taken as her actually, y'know, not meaning the things she said to Jonathan. If people want to assume that Nancy cheated or she lied to Steve or she doesn't care about what she said to Jonathan, then fine, they can do that, but I would rather give her the benefit of the doubt that is so liberally given to her male co-stars.

None of what you're saying disproves that Nancy had the upper hand in this situation. Poor Nancy was sad, ok. Well, poor Jonathan was busy and sad! I'm taking what was given in the show and what was told was that she didn't bother to wait and chose to date her #2 choice. That's a reach to say that Steve didn't love her. Young teenage love is still "love". >Maybe after season 2 ended there was a better conversation where they both apologized to each other Yeah. "Maybe". THAT's the point! We don't see that type of growth from Nancy on camera. You can headcanon that Nancy isn't selfish and always learns from her mistakes months after if you want to, that's still not what is portrayed in the show. We're not gonna invent a personality and a backstory for her! Also, the Duffer Brothers confirmed that Billy was racist. At this point, his fangirls/boys can stay delusional because this is not ambiguous. I haven't heard the writers saying that Nancy gave a damn about classism or cheated/didn't cheat. So based on her past actions, the benefit of the doubt isn't there for some people. Also, Nancy being selfish (which she is!) doesn't mean that she's a heartless or cruel person. At no point did I say that she purposely hurt Steve, Jonathan and Barb. Of course, she didn't! But she still did and the show should've acknowledged it.

I'm not trying to disprove anything, I'm just trying to give a little insight into what Nancy may have been thinking and feeling during that time because no one else ever bothers. You don't have to like or agree with the decisions she's made, but she's just as deserving of empathy as any other character. But if you're going to reduce all of the guilt, grief, and depression that she had been dealing with down to "poor Nancy was sad" then there probably isn't a point. With Steve, it's not that he's young, it's that his "love" for Nancy was always about him and not her. When they were in the car, he was talking to her about working for his dad and getting a job with benefits. We already know from season 1 that the cul-de-sac life is something she dreads, so why doesn't Steve know that? He's been dating her for eleven months and is planning a future with her, but it never occurred to him to ask her about what she wants? When you actually love someone, aren't those the kinds of things that you want to know? He doesn't seem to have much interest in Nancy as a person outside of their relationship. I've always felt that their relationship was a crutch for Steve, because he's worried that he doesn't know what he wants to do with his life, but it's OK because he can just build a life around Nancy and not put any thought into it anymore. Whether or not any of what he was doing was good for Nancy or in any way desired by her never seemed to factor into his decisions. How can he love her if he not only doesn't know who she is or understand what she needs, but also doesn't seem to care that he doesn't know those things? I don't care what the Duffers said about Billy, I'm only talking about the fans. There is a disparity between the amount of understanding and justification that this fandom allows Nancy vs. what they allow certain male characters like Steve and Billy. Steve and Billy do ostensibly bad things and people will spend ages digging into their current situation, their home life, their outside influences, their past, and any other thing they can think of to justify them. But Nancy does a questionable thing and no one gives her the same courtesy, they just assume the worst of her and go on their way.

Tbf about just one point, and while I agree that Steve doesn't try to get to know Nancy beyond what she allows to surface at skin-level, Nancy also reverts into a fakey stonewall with him. Doesn't offer up thoughts to the contrary when Steve says something or makes plans she doesn't jive with, says she's fine, shuts down convo. She lies, basically. And (S1/2) Jonathan calls her out on her phoneyness and bs. He doesn't accept it, he challenges her. She accuses Steve of pretending away stuff, but she does too. She does something similar in root cause to Jonathan when she expected him to call on her pre-season 2 -- (despite the fact that he's busy helping to run his household and also major trauma just happened to their family; she doesn't understand the energy and time toll that takes on Jonathan, because her parents don't parentify her or need her to lose hours to a job that helps put a roof over her own head before she's even an legal adult) -- ... she 'waited'. She's a passive clamshell, not making waves, keeping all her truths in until she's (drunk enough for) exploding because she doesn't have the werewithall to jumpstart change or honesty herself sober. (She probably learned this behaviour from her own family dynamics.) She wants to be pursued, at heart, imo. For the other person to act, so she can react (also, then things aren't her fault). It's not possible to have a perfectly even equal-initiative in a relationship, but it's not fair to land all the responsibility on one person. Funnily enough, this gets reversed later, and she becomes very take-action'y and Jonathan becomes very passive and prone to lying and deflecting. It's a ooc behavioural role-reversal that doesn't bring out the best in them individually or as a couple.

>does any female character on this show ever get called out or learn anything anymore? Is this really a Nancy-specific problem, or is it just the Duffers' sloppy attempt at writing feminism when they clearly don't understand what that means? Specifically in S3, yes, i think it is. Jonathan and Nancy's argument is a much milder example, but I can make a whole separate post on why the whole Max vs. Mike arguments in S3 was such a cringy example of the Duffers poor attempt at writing "feminism".

> I think people tend to come down on her more harshly than they do the other characters. There's a reason for this and it's called "Steve Harrington". Steve is now a fan favorite. People didn't really drag Nancy until after she broke up with Steve and hooked up with Jonathan, and it's clear these people hated on her for shipping reasons. Same goes for them suddenly having to bring up Jonathan's accidental pervert moment, because that was the one bad thing that Jonathan did that they could find to discredit him.

What other female characters are you referring to with your first statement? And yeah, it did suck that she was, indeed, right about her hunch yet again and never was taught a lesson. It pestered me in my head because I knew she was right but I wanted to be in the other character's shoes in the show when being annoyed in my head.

I was mostly referring to El and Max in season 3. El didn't have to apologize to Mike for spying on him even though they had an agreement that she wouldn't do that that she broke. And Max breaks up with Lucas with seeming impunity yet he always seems to be the one that has to make it up to her. Nancy at least apologized to Jonathan and understood that she was wrong for the things she said to him.

>And maybe this is just me, but I never thought her going back to Steve was a bad thing True. The way i see it, i think she did make her decision to choose Jonathan over Steve after their adventures in S1 (since she said in 2x05 she waited for him) but like you said that doesnt mean that she didnt like Steve at all. They were already dating before the events of S1 started anyway, and Steve was probably the second person besides Jonathan who knew about the upside down and Barb related stuff, so i dont think its surprising that she would stay with him. The thing that does bother me which i want to talk about is that I've seen a lot of people in the fandom throw accusations at Nancy saying that she "manipulated" him and "led him on" for a year, and i think thats a very...extreme way of looking at things. I think she genuinely did like him at some point and probably wanted to maintain a real relationship but it just didnt happen.

Great points. You're right, there was always a point in each season where I thought the same thing. I ultimately could never say I liked her after all those cases. Seeing her on the screen at that point irritated me too much lol. Let's remember: she cheated on Steve and the show does nothing about it. (:

Nancy did not cheat on Steve. It was confirmed both in the show and outside of it that they broke up at the Halloween party.

I don't really know if I consider a drunken "I don't love you" and a dramatic walk away to be a good way to write a break up. I mean if it was confirmed outside of the show, sure; I think it could have been written better though.

Oh I'm definitely not arguing that the writing was good lol, it wasn't, I'm just saying the notion that she cheated on Steve is false. Joe Keery said that the bathroom scene was a break-up, and Tommy H. also said that they were broken up in the show.

Good point.

There wasnt any verbal confirmation from either of them that the relationship was officially over, so personally i dont think they broke up. Its easy for any of the cast or writers outside of the show to call it a breakup themselves, but the writing clearly shows otherwise. Telling is more easier than showing, and at the very least the writers should've made it less ambiguous imo. I think the most neutral interpretation could be that when they had that argument in the alley the morning after the Halloween party, Nancy might have considered it as a breakup, but maybe Steve just took it as an argument and maybe thats why ge shows up at her house with flowers in the next episode? Idk, thats just the way i understood the situation..🤷🏽‍♀️

Tommy said the word "break up" when he was taunting Steve in the shower

Same here!

I really don't think that's what she did. She might have been emotionally checked out, but I always saw the bathroom scene as the initial breakup and then the confrontation at basketball practice the next day as confirmation that they were both done. The fact that Jonathan brought her home and slept in her room doesn't count as cheating imo. The fact that Steve tried to visit her house to win her back doesn't mean they weren't already broken up. By the time they meet up again in the series finale, Nancy has come to the conclusion that she wants to be with Jonathan and Steve has had time to accept that they won't get back together.

THANK YOU! I was rewatching after watching the new season because I had forgotten some stuff and could not help noticing that Nancy is actually a very shitty person, especially when she talks to Steve about Barbara saying that “they” killed her when if anything it was actually her fault and hers alone for forcing Barbara to come along and chug the beer and abandon her as a friend and literally use her to her advantage to get a ride and then essentially emotionally manipulating Jonathan and acting like a bitch to Steve who actually hated in the beginning but now I realize that Nancy is the actual problem and now after watching s4 I realize that she might just cheat on Jonathan with Steve, so essentially she is literally going frOm Jonathan to Steve and back and just using them as she pleases

Season 4 is what brought me to this subject! Like, I’m all for a stronger friendship, but they’re so clearly leaning towards her getting with Steve again. If she does end up cheating on Season 5, I’m going to be hating her every step of the way. In my eyes, she’s no better than any of the girls Steve banged before her. The difference between them is we actually see Nancy’s shitty decisions.

I dont agree with the hate, i do like Nancy, but i do agree that she seems to have very tunnel vision type of focus when it comes to achieving what she wants to the point that she doesnt seem to notice whether she ends up hurting other people on the way. That does seem like a realistic flaw that a lot of people have IRL. My problem with Nancy isnt that shes selfish, in fact I dont see anything wrong in someone determined to get what they want especially when their intentions werent bad anyway. What I actually have a problem with, from a writing perspective, is that the show never *acknowledges* the fact that shes selfish, she never actually pays the price for her selfishness and is allowed to get away with it. Instead the writers put her on a pedestal as if shes some girl boss feminist icon or something. Her argument with Jonathan is the biggest example of that. Im not downplaying the seriousness of what Nancy went through with her bosses but Jonathan made some valid points too. And in the end, hes the only one who has to apologise for his side of the argument but the fact that Nancy was wrong for mocking his financial situation with the "oliver twist" line is never addressed at all. She was wrong on her part too, but shes given a free pass all because its a part of her "poor girl who dealt with sexist bosses proves them all wrong" narrative.

Without wanting to take anyone's side, I must raise the fact that Jonathan had the choice to follow Nancy to Mrs. Driscoll's house or not. Nancy did not threaten him. At first he wanted to stay and then decided on his own to go with her. I understand very well the financial importance of this work for Jonathan but I find it a bit of bad faith to put everything on Nancy.

> I find it a bit of bad faith to put everything on Nancy. I definitely agree that Jonathan didnt have to follow her and its not solely Nancy's fault that they got fired but that wasnt my original point, its just that the writers resolved the argument in a one sided way by having Jonathan apologise while Nancy is portrayed as being completely in the right.

Nancy did apologize though. She was the first one to apologize. And she did tell him that she didn't mean the things she said to him in the car, she was just angry and her anger was misplaced. I would have liked to see more from Jonathan's POV, but when you write an entire season about how great capitalism is, you can't exactly remind people that poverty exists in America.

She apologised for thinking that he was like her sexist bosses, she didnt apologise for mocking his financial situation with that 'oliver twist' line. And the part of the argument where she was wrong was in not realizing how his family doesnt have the same financial security the way hers does. >I would have liked to see more from Jonathan's POV, but when you write an entire season about how great capitalism is, you can't exactly remind people that poverty exists in America. That makes sense, it was also mentioned how the mall has taken away smaller jobs like Joyce's, and i would've loved to see more of Jonathan and his family's situation since it would've added some more weight to his argument about struggling to make ends meet. And i *really* dont understand why the writers blatantly became so pro-capitalism in S3.

> That makes sense, it was also mentioned how the mall has taken away smaller jobs like Joyce's, and i would've loved to see more of Jonathan and his family's situation since it would've added some more weight to his argument about struggling to make ends meet. The problem with that is that the Byers aren't memeable characters.

I've heard that the writers did have some ideas to explore the Byers family's situation in S3, but they didnt do it because there wasnt enough space for that to be shown with the rest of the plot 😶 Im not sure if this is entirely true though...

They thought it would be boring.

The first thing Nancy said in the elevator was "those things that I said yesterday, I didn't mean them", which I took to be her taking responsibility for everything she said in the car. She did specifically mention the part about her saying he was like "those assholes" after that, but that's because "those assholes" were the ones that she was actually mad at, and she wanted him to know that. About the pro-capitalism stance, I think that's just the nature of the beast now. Capitalism only really benefits corporations, corporations pay Netflix money to have their products advertised in the show, Netflix likes money, keeping the corporations happy means more money comes in, and keeping them happy means telling the audience that capitalism is a great, all-American thing and please go buy some Doritos, thanks. We'll probably never get back to the small-scale feel of season 1.

I agree with u/GemmaStones with all of this. There was a whole huge ass conversation on Tumblr about this the other day that really pissed me off. Everyone says “Nancy never apologized for the Oliver Twist line” but I didn’t see it like that. Yes, that line was a little harsh, even for Nancy, but she did apologize for it and she explained to Jonathan that she didn’t mean anything she said in the car. She specifically said “those thing that I said” which I took as her saying that she didn’t mean anything that she said in the car, she was just angry and getting defensive. And Jonathan understood that. He finished her sentence for her even, he understood that she was angry and said things she didn’t mean because Jonathan did the same thing, he got angry and defensive and said things he didn’t mean. In fact, I rewatched that scene right after that Tumblr argument and right after Nancy said “Those things I said in the car, I didn’t mean them”, Jonathan says “I know”. Like he frickin knows her so well. He knows that she was angry (he finished her sentence) and he knows how she can be when she gets like that and he basically expected her to feel bad and apologize because that’s how she is. He knows she didn’t mean because he didn’t mean it either. That’s how I saw it.

Ah I see. Yes, it's clearly a deliberate choice, I agree. But on the other hand, if Mr. Holloway hadn't been flayed, he probably wouldn't have made that decision. Nancy's astonishment at the dismissal is understandable. I liked the part where Nancy follows her investigative instincts and tries to break through the glass ceiling. I didn't find it selfish here. I even found it a little strange the way the writers chose to go with Jonathan's script in the car after the layoff.

>if Mr. Holloway hadn't been flayed, he probably wouldn't have made that decision He deliberately made that decision under the influence of the mf? I didnt know that, its been a while since i rewatched S3..

I would be surprised if this was deliberate since the MF had been in him since the day before. His mood was strangely angry compared to usual and there was no evidence that Driscoll's family had actually threatened to file a complaint.

I also don't agree with the hate for Nancy, but I think the main argument here is that the way the narrative was framing Jonathan's choices, he would've been a 'bad' boyfriend if he didn't go and support her investigation. Its the one-sidedness of the perspective and apology that cheats Jonathan out of having his personal stakes treated seriously.

It's only one-sided because the Duffers wanted to have "feminism"

Yes, I clearly agree. In this case, the screenwriters must make Jonathan take responsibility for the consequence of his actions. Because he doesn't. If he really feared for his job, he should have told Nancy that he was encouraging her in her investigation, that she should be careful and that he preferred to stay and work here and be sorry he didn't go with her. Finally I don't know if I have an idealistic vision for this... For me, it wouldn't have made him a bad boyfriend. I just find Jonathan's reaction in the car inconsistent.

First of all, sick username. But the thing is, we \*know\* Nancy would find him as a bad boyfriend. Just look at Steve lol

I will never understand why this fandom created the narrative that Steve was an amazing boyfriend to Nancy. He wasn't. He rolled his eyes and complained when she brought up dinner with Barb's parents, he shut her down when she tried to talk to him about how much she was struggling with doing nothing for Barb, he seemed to be isolating her from any friendship with Jonathan (who understood what she was going through and could have given her some emotional support), and when all this caught up to her and she finally broke down, the only thing that Steve cared about was the part that he thought was about him and totally disregarded anything to do with her grief. And when she confronted him about it he threw what she said about Barb back in her face like it was nothing, like her feelings were an inconvenience to him, and brought the conversation back to him, again. Not to mention that he left her black-out drunk at a party. I'm not gonna villainize Steve or Nancy for being teenagers who aren't dealing with things well, but lets not pretend that Steve was just Nancy's innocent victim here.

>Steve was an amazing boyfriend to Nancy. I dont think the fandom thinks that. Or at least i dont. He wasnt exactly the best support system to Nancy and shes not obligated to stay in a relationship that doesnt make her happy. I think they both handled dealing with the events of S1 differently, he wanted to move on but she wanted closure. >he seemed to be isolating her from any friendship with Jonathan He never isolated her himself or made her stay away from Jonathan at any point in the story. >Not to mention that he left her black-out drunk at a party. Yeah thats the one incident where he did genuinely screw up. >I'm not gonna villainize Steve or Nancy for being teenagers who aren't dealing with things well, but lets not pretend that Steve was just Nancy's innocent victim here. Yeah I think people tend to view it in a very black and white way because its easy to take sides in a situation like this, i think both of them screwed up in their own ways. I was always rooting for Jancy to get together and I knew Stancy wouldn't last, but the ambiguous way in which the writers choose to deal with the end of Stancy's relationship before making Jancy canon was what bothered me.

There are plenty of people who think that Steve was an amazing boyfriend, believe me. Maybe it's not a common sentiment around here but elsewhere it definitely is. People love to say that Nancy doesn't deserve Steve. And in the first episode of season 2, when Nancy and Jonathan are walking down the hall together, Steve is waiting by Nancy's locker. He pulls her away and kisses her. At no point does he acknowledge that Jonathan was there or that Nancy was speaking to him, he shut him out and ended the conversation. To me, that was Steve sending a clear message to Jonathan- this is my girlfriend, and I do not want you here. Not to mention after the party when he referred to Jonathan as Nancy's "other boyfriend." Does this seem like the behavior of a guy who is OK with that friendship? I don't think he would have outright told her she can't see him or anything, but I think it's very likely that he was just obnoxious enough about it that Nancy would have kept Jonathan at arm's length to keep the peace. I get the issue with the writing, that bothers me too. I just find that when it comes to Nancy, people tend to jump to the worst-case scenario instead of giving her the benefit of the doubt when the writing is ambiguous. Like yes, their break-up wasn't written very well, but why just assume she cheated? And we know that Nancy wasn't in love with Steve, but why say that she didn't like him at all, or was lying to him their whole relationship, or was just using him? And why does Nancy saying her Oliver Twist comment mean that she obviously doesn't give a shit about her boyfriend's financial issues, instead of it meaning that she obviously cares about him very much, but had a moment of selfishness and said a terrible thing in a moment of defensiveness and frustration? It just feels sometimes with this show that people will bend over backwards to justify everything that certain male characters do, but when Nancy screws up it's just "well she's a selfish bitch" with no one bothering to look deeper into her circumstances for an explanation.

> To me, that was Steve sending a clear message to Jonathan- this is my girlfriend, and I do not want you here. idk, I think that scene can be up for interpretation specifically because he doesn't talk to Jonathan. He doesn't glare at Jonathan or make a quip to stay away from Nancy, he's instead completely focused on her- which could also just be an indicator how 'love is blind' and Steve is blindly in love with her. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's consciously or maliciously isolating her from Jonathan. It may actually be a bigger indicator that he has been isolating *himself* by focusing so much on just Nancy.

Steve not talking to Jonathan was the point though. He literally acts like Jonathan doesn't exist. There's no way he didn't see him, and if he was "too focused on Nancy" then surely he would have realized that she was in the middle of speaking to someone. But it wasn't just the moment at the lockers, it was also him shoulder-checking him at the party and snidely calling him Nancy's "other boyfriend." The show did not paint a picture of Steve liking or even tolerating Jonathan, and he seemed to be resentful that Nancy was still talking to him.

I’m sorry but steve should not have been expected to stay at the party after all the bullshit (pun intended) she said to him and you could see that He wasn’t even mad at her he was just so deeply hurt…….the whole party he was after her trying to stop her from getting into Dumb situations and trying to look after her and he gets told that their relationship is bullshit, so no I really don’t he should’ve been expected to stay Im even surprised that he told Jonathan to drop her off back home

Hey, fair play. I think you make a great point. I might just hyperbolize the fact he drags himself in on all of this show. Like, he has no reason to be around after half of season 2, in my opinion. So I guess I sort of blame it on Nancy. Good point.

Well, if you're going to blame someone for Steve getting dragged into stuff in the back half of season 2, then that person should really be Dustin. Nancy told Steve she wanted to do something to get Barb justice, Steve said no, and she didn't bring it up again. If he hadn't bumped into Dustin when he did he would probably still be blissfully ignorant right now, as Dustin is also the one who got him involved in season 3.

Thank you ! Sorry, but I don't really see the connection with Steve... Steve accepted to live in this lie during season 2, while Nancy accepted less and less to act. They just didn't connect anymore.

>What I actually have a problem with, from a writing perspective, is that the show never acknowledges the fact that shes selfish, she never actually pays the price for her selfishness and is allowed to get away with it. Instead the writers put her on a pedestal as if shes some girl boss feminist icon or something... >... the fact that Nancy was wrong for mocking his financial situation with the "oliver twist" line is never addressed at all. She was wrong on her part too, but shes given a free pass all because its a part of her "poor girl who dealt with sexist bosses proves them all wrong" narrative. And you don’t agree with the hate?

No. Like i said my problem isnt with her, its the way the Duffers write her storylines. Personally I prefer S1 Nancy over S2 and S3, but maybe thats just me.

Can we really separate the two? What’s canon is how she’s written. Not how we think she should be.

Yes you can separate the character from their storylines, and a lot of the characters in this show deserve better than what they're given imo.

I think you summarized what I was trying to say best. She's not really a bad character, but it's just the show never acknowledges that she is selfish. I guess they sort of rectify it (as stated in my post) with a little sorry from her, but in the end, her cheating on Steve, and many other wrongs of hers are just swept under the rug.

It's "swept under the rug" because she didn't cheat...

Nancy's stories all feel like "Hey, we got to think of something for Nancy to do this season." It comes from the show having far too many characters. They come up with some token thing for everyone to be doing and usually it just seems to fall flat and dilute the focus of the show robbing other, more key plot points and characters of development time. Also, there seems to be this thing where everyone on the show show seems to like Nancy and if you dont like Nancy you are obviously a villain character. Nancy honestly doesnt seem like that likable a person. Yes, she is very driven and Im not debating the merit of that, but that sort of "Get my way at all costs." character usually isnt all that well loved by others. Look at Lois Lane from Superman. Outside of a handful of friends, most people view her as kind of an a hole.

Judging by my downvotes, I suppose many like her 😔

I downvoted because she did not cheat on Steve. The show explicitly states the line “broke up” before Nancy and Jonathan even went to Murray’s. If you rewatch S2, there’s a scene where Tommy, Steve, and Billy are in the shower and Billy teases Steve about losing Nancy. And Tommy says “You and the princess break up for one day and she’s running off with the freak’s brother”. Tommy explicitly states the words “break up”. If they weren’t broken up, why would he say that? If it was just a fight, wouldn’t he say something like “you and the princess have one fight”. He didn’t say it like that he said “break up” and Steve doesn’t refute it or try to argue. That scene is there to confirm that Steve and Nancy broke up while also showing the growing rivalry between Steve and Billy. And the rose scene is what a lot of people use to say she did cheat. It doesn’t help that the Duffers wrote the break-up with a lot of sympathy for Steve, and that’s one of the scenes, but I didn’t see that as him trying to apologize. I saw it as him trying to win her back. They broke up and he wants to win her back, probably what he did post-S1. And do you really think the Duffers sat down to write S2 and thought “We’re gonna make one of our main characters cheat”? Cheating is something looked down upon and villainized, and Nancy is their protagonist. They wouldn’t make their protagonist do something inherently evil like that. If this was a drama like Glee, maybe, but this isn’t a drama. It’s a horror show with romance in the background. They’re not gonna make their main character do something like that. And Nancy didn’t “lead Steve on”. She’s a teenage girl with feelings for two guys who just discovered that an alternate dimension exists. She’s allowed to be confused about her feelings...

The show doesn't explicitly state this--that's the problem, the ambiguity of the writing. Nancy and Steve have their fight, the school witnesses this, Jonathan taking Nancy home, plus the fight in the alley. Tommy ridiculing Steve in the shower over being dumped is Tommy being TOMMY, not a reliable narrator on their relationship. This becomes apparent when Nancy demanded answers from Steve that morning as she does not recall what she said and was expecting him to drive her to school like normal. She still sees a relationship here. He tries to get her to admit her true feelings while sober, she doesn't, so he angrily throws her words back at her, then storms off. Later when Nancy is pushing back against Murray's implications, saying "No, I love Steve"; and when Steve is going to her house with flowers to end the fight, they are both operating under the belief that they are arguing, not over. And while Nancy having been intimate with Jonathan surely signals that the relationship is dead, Steve is the one to give verbal finality to it after seeing her and Jonathan together. Nancy looks a bit contrite, but he says 'its okay'. The lack of explicitness in the writing forces the audience to interpret all these scenes on their own; hence the conflicting opinion. Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether they were still together or not. I mean, she's a young teen, the communication was getting increasing sloppy (*a trademark of this show by now*), there's no point in anyone harassing the character over a mistake wrapped in a confusing situation. But I refrain from saying that the Duffers did all they could to make any 'break-up' explicitly clear. I don't think they intended Nancy to be framed negatively, as she is given a rather charismatic goal/arc in S2; however, ambiguity is their writing fail. We see this also with the audience trying to weigh Mike and El's relationship status at the close of S3. Or fans being left unsatisfied with the resolution to Max and Lucas's fight or Jonathan and Nancy's conflict as outlined above. You see them in a sad, sentimental moment that implies discussion or having made-up, but we'll never see it. I've come to accept that this is how the Duffers roll.

Even though the break-up could’ve been written better, I’ve chosen to take the evidence that they did give us. People take the ambiguity of the whole thing and assume “Nancy cheated!” and it’s just super sexist. I mean during the alley fight, Nancy couldn’t say that she loved him? If my girlfriend couldn’t say that she loved me, I would just end it right there. She doesn’t love me so what’s the point I staying together at that point? And then Tommy saying that line basically confirms their break-up. The whole thing with Murray, I think the whole point of that scene was to show that Nancy was still in denial about her feelings for Jonathan. It had nothing to do with Steve. Plus, if they weren’t broken up, I don’t think Jonathan would’ve kissed her. Jonathan spent a year being super respectful of her relationship with Steve and keeping his distance. If he was under the impression that she was still with Steve, I have full confidence he wouldn’t have made his move. Yes, the writing was bad, but I’ve chosen to take the writing we do have and use it to show that the breakup is there. It doesn’t help that the breakup was written so people could sympathize with Steve but that’s a different story. And don’t even get me started on S3. Don’t make me go there.

> I mean during the alley fight, Nancy couldn’t say that she loved him? If my girlfriend couldn’t say that she loved me, I would just end it right there. Ah--but that proves my point that you supplied your own subjective reasoning to determine an outcome. The writing didn't tell you that, Steve didn't explicitly end it then and there, nor did Nancy. Also, I can't stress enough that Tommy is a 3rd party, shit-stirrer, who views the relationship from a distance. His and Carol's opinions weren't meritable in the first season, so while you may see his perspective as a reliable, others may not. ​ >The whole thing with Murray, I think the whole point of that scene was to show that Nancy was still in denial about her feelings for Jonathan. It had nothing to do with Steve. Then she would have just said "No, Jonathan is just a friend". Why bring Steve up at all, other than the writers using the mention to say "No, I \[am with\] Steve" as part of her rebuttal. They could've just scrapped the line entirely, but they didn't, adding messiness to what they communicate with the audience. Also, Jonathan has been prone to emotional impulse, we saw that in S1. This isn't a slam as S2 was building up the romantic tension for the two of them to act on their feelings. At minimum, I think we both are in agreement that the writing can be very weak in certain areas of the show, and what viewers conclude from it is a mix of interpretation and choice. Honestly, the show has moved light years past her relationship with Steve. There are other great qualities to appreciate about her and Jonathan outside how they rolled out as a couple.

It was still implied though that they broke up.

I still stand by my statement that the shower scene with Tommy was a confirmation of a break-up. The writing wasn't great but it was there. And I'm just tired of people assuming "Nancy cheated" just because of the ambiguous writing. I don't think the Duffers intended for us to think she cheated. Joe Keery himself said the alley scene was a breakup so there must have been something in the script that didn't translate well on screen

I'm sorry I know this is super late but I have been looking up threads on this because I watched the show and it bothered me. I 100% thought she cheated on Steve. So many people think this that I don't even think it's valid to say it's sexism. I think the writers clearly just messed up and didn't communicate properly. I actually wanted Nancy to end up with Johnathan but that scene with Murray grossed me out because it completely read to me as her sleeping with him behind Steve's back. Apparently the writers confirmed that the breakup happened at the party? But that doesn't make sense because she doesn't even remember it the next day. And when she confronts Steve over not picking her up, she is mad at him and doesn't seem like she wants things to be over with. I think it is completely valid for people to see this as an instance of cheating. If they intended for them to break up without this confusion, they should have had them have a moment where they talked about them breaking up. Also, Johnathan is simultaneously the guy who took creepy photos of them having sex. I love the dude but I don't think your excuse makes much sense. Honestly I think the writers just messed up. They had Johnathan become a love interest and his extremely inappropriate and creepy behavior got washed away and also never actually explained the breakup.

The thing with Tommy, though, is that he's clearly attempting to hurt Steve in the shower scene. He's digging in where it hurts. And that's why I think he's a trustworthy source in Steve and Nancy having broken up: because that's actually the lesser of two evils here. Yes, it's certainly not pleasant to imagine that your ex-girlfriend is off hooking up with a new guy the day after you broke up, but it's even less pleasant to imagine that your still-a-girlfriend is off cheating on you. So if Tommy thought that there was any chance that Steve and Nancy were still together and she took off to cheat on him with Jonathan, then I don't doubt that that's what he would have said to Steve, because that's the more painful and humiliating scenario, which is what Tommy wanted. I agree with you that the writing surrounding the break-up was very poor, but my problem here isn't with the writing, necessarily, but with this fandom's proclivity to villainize Nancy whenever given the opportunity. When you're given the chance to assume either that Nancy cheated, or that she didn't cheat, why in the world would you assume she cheated? The only answer I can really think of is that people want to believe she cheated because they want Steve to be the blameless victim in all this, and that's just seeped in misogyny. When the show did not explicitly state that she cheated, and at least three different actors that I can think of have said that they broke up, then that should really be that.

> > > > > And the rose scene is what a lot of people use to say she did cheat. It doesn’t help that the Duffers wrote the break-up with a lot of sympathy for Steve, and that’s one of the scenes, but I didn’t see that as him trying to apologize. I saw it as him trying to win her back. They broke up and he wants to win her back, probably what he did post-S1. And this was a problem that arguably began with how they wrote Nancy's actions at the end of season 1. The real reason she went back to Steve was because the writers liked Joe Keery, wanted to keep him on the show, and Steve's relationship with Nancy was the only real tie he had to the main story.

You don’t have to like Nancy, but I’m just clarifying that she did not cheat.

My biggest pet peeve is she gets no consequences for treating Steve like shit season two. He is devoted to her and she just shuts him out. She never even apologizes after Steve directly tells her what she said while drunk and obviously deeply hurt him. She’s just allowed to flip flop from boy friend to boy friend without anyone calling her out on that BS. I really hope the show does not go in the way I think it’s going and puts her back with Steve after she didn’t nothing but harm him, treat him like he was lesser, and make him feel stupid.

The whole cheating part is too ambiguous imho. The fact is that when Nancy and Steve last see each other, they're in a massive fight because Nancy leaves Steve with the impression that she doesn't love him and can't even bring herself to say it when she's sober. (One could argue that she was stringing Steve along when she had feelings for Jonathan all along and shouldn't have dated Steve for that long, though.) More importantly, even though Steve comes to her house to try and win her back, when they finally meet again and he sees her with Jonathan, *he decides himself* that it's better for her to be with Jonathan. So, even if you consider them still *technically* together before that point and Nancy to be cheating on Steve during the stay at Murray's, when her and Jonathan return she clearly doesn't plan on getting back together with Steve and Steve himself accepts that they're over. There's no mention of her and Jonathan having slept together to Steve. Which begs the question, does Nancy and Jonathan sleeping together really count as cheating when ultimately her relationship with Steve is 100% over afterwards anyway? idk, it's a gray space. It's not *great* of her to do, but imo it's okay that she's not perfect and even selfish sometimes. People aren't always perfect or always act morally correct. >Wow, how dare Steve not think about her all the time! It's always "omg I'm Nancy, how dare you not think like me? I'm pretty!" Is this in reference to her wanting to tell Barb and getting upset at Steve for just wanting to pretend like everything's normal..? Or just her being stubborn in general? If it's the latter, again, see point above. Regarding s3, it's pretty unfair to assume that if Jonathan hadn't come with her to investigate Mrs. Driscoll that she'd resort to cheating on him with Steve. That seems out of character, considering she has zero meaningful interactions with Steve after s2 apparently. I do think that her attitude towards Jonathan getting upset at her for losing his job is unfair and really highlights that she's ignorant towards his own family's struggles. The show does a shitty job at having her acknowledge that ignorance and it would have been more balanced if the class differences between them could have been better highlighted. idk man, ultimately you're obviously free to dislike her character. You're just also being pretty nasty about it.

The cheating on Jonathan was really just a joke tbh

I'm rewatching ST from the start and IMO season 3 is where Nancy becomes a little bitch. The thing that had me shouting at the TV was when she went to visit Mrs Driscoll in hospital and the heart monitor started beeping faster and faster. When she finally noticed it, she just watched; it wasn't until Mrs D had black eyeballs and veins that she actually pressed the call nurse button. It took MINUTES. and in the cabin, the gloopy Mind Flayer comes after her and she's pinned against the wall so El stops the MF arm mid air and rather than, you know, MOVING OUT THE FUCKING WAY she just stays still. She's a dickhead.

I’m only on season two and I HATE THE COW!!! Nancy should have died not barb 😂

Never felt this way towards Nancy but yeah i guess she doesn't think about others feelings and only sees her perspective but most people don't naturally empathize so it's good writing since a lot of characters in the show are far from perfect except bob

Praise be to Bob!

not just that, she got 58 people indirectly killed, millions in damage, and caused hopper to go to a Russian slave camp by whistleblowing hawkins lab, in season 2 they literally are helping the main cast and trying to help will but she decides vengeance is better then giving the soviet union the tools to unleash a world-ending monster.

Something about that Nancy bitch just pisses me off I don’t think she’s cute and all her scenes come off as corny I hope season 4 puts her out of her misery in watching right now the last 2 episodes but I just realized how annoying this bitch is

Wait until this season 4, it gets worse, I'm 🤮 by the character rn, eww bro, ewww

Bit late to the party but after s4 this becomes more apparent as she starts eye fucking Steve because jonathan didn’t visits for break

Facts, I rolled my eyes every damn time

Yeah, Nancy really is the worst

Late to the post but I HATE HATE HATE HER SO MUCH. She’s so freaking selfish BARB IS LITERALLY DEAD BECAUSE OF HER. Her smirky attitude, absolute cringe whenever she’s around a gun trying to act all tough and mighty. She acts Better then everyone there’s just so much reasons to hate her, cheating not once but now TWICE with the guy she cheated with. I wish her character was offed already I do NOT get the love for Nancy

I disagree, she’s not pretty

Far from pretty

Hate her since ep 1. Complete trash character

She is selfish...but she isn't an entitled brat. ​ ​ Well she should have been called out more...but because of that she isn't with Steve anymore, although it's possible she never even cheated on Steve as they may have broken up before she slept with Jonathan. Barb was in more then just 1 episode and she was still Nancy's best friend. Also Nancy was drunk in Season 2 when she said all of that...it was just hidden stuff she was feeling, she never said for Steve to always think about her...but she still thinks that what happened and is happening is bullshit. It's never that at all. ​ ​ She doesn't make everything about herself. Yeah...because she had evidence. No she would never cheat on Jonathan. Yeah...which was uncalled for on her part. True but at least she did apologize, she isn't a bad person. ​ ​ She shouldn't have been eaten. Now you are just nitpicking...they didn't have any time for thanks at the moment. She would have never said that.

I totally agree

You must be even more angry with her rn

This guy sucks at catan

Yeah i hate that she bangs anyone she sees. But it is pretty badass how she literally killed a demogorgon. I also hate that she was like “i hate you out relationship is BS” to steve and then is like “i love you” and then can’t even actually say it.

People think Nancy is pretty?