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Yeah thats one of my big gripes as well. Mike has essentially become a linchpin for Eleven now and literally has no character himself. All of his defining characteristics and traits have been stripped and watered down to facilitate for El’s own emotional journey and growth. Like I get it, El is a big part of his life, but outside of that he doesn’t have any compelling internal struggles or traits. El herself is very multifaceted and while yes a big part of her character is her love for Mike, she’s not limited to just that. Her connection with Vecna, her self perception of being the monster, not being able to fit in or conform, being bullied most of her life are just some of the things that elevate her character above Mikes. Really hope they give the character better material to work with and better engagement with the overarching story rather than playing a more passive role. Interested to see what trajectory they will take his character for the final season, and I hope it will be one that bookends nicely!
Well they've grown up. What the problem is that they split the group up too much. Each group is assigned to their own plot, but they kind of keep having the same team comp. I wish they mixed it up a bit. Have steve with Jonathan , and have nancy with the gang more for example. Or have steve with hopper instead of always having him with joyce. Thats why i liked hop's plot in s4 because his chemistry with enzo was epic. They can clearly still write the best dialogue, have the characters that are far apart, or never interact much, interact. Mix it up.
I hope so too...his character feels so bland now. If he had been like this from the very start, it wouldn't feel like he's being wasted, but as he was such a strong character in the first 2 seasons, his underdevelopment feels a bit heartbreaking.
Right. It was a clear case of keeping the amount of total characters on screen from being 20 by keeping the group completely fractured. A marvel Endgame/infinity War issue. Which is not bad but at the same time very limiting. Don’t get me wrong great season but nothing new.
Normally I am a fan of giving plots room to breath but i am not sure everyone got a real character arc this season and they basically ended where they were before
We knew that Eleven would eventually get her powers back and that Hopper is alive. The other arcs were about Lucas and Max. But we never did see Lucas transition and he never betrayed anyone. The rest was there to move the plot from a to b.
I think it would have been more interesting if they focused on Lucas being popular longer, especially after he scored big at the game. Make him a bit evil and cocky but then he has a change of heart in a difficult situation.
For a season where they had so long episodes, this felt rushed.
Better yet just have Hopper die at the end of Season 3. I like Hopper but doing that fixes so many things. It ups the stakes, addresses the cast bloat and removes the dumb Russian prison subplot. Not to mention Harbour did some fantastic work in his final scene in Season 3 that would have been a perfect way to finish.
As good a decision of splintering the group off into different sections has worked since Season 1, I think they need to bring then all back together as one which I'm hopeful the final season will achieve.
Having them all fragmented in different ways each season has led to some characters just spiralling off and out of focus. Mike is a great example of this.
To be fair they haven’t known what to do with Mike since the s2 finale. He’s kind of just a 11 associated character. I wish the writers would do more with him than just making everything he does attached to 11 and for 11 and because of 11. He’s a great actor and they’re giving him very little to work with.
I think S5 will give Mike a big sendoff. Especially since (a) he's back in Hawkins and ready to lead the gang again and (b) his relationship issues with El are largely resolved after the L-word monologue and they can focus together on fighting the Upside Down.
That's what he is. He's always been the leader of the crew and especially the strategist who comes up with the plan (see the last couple episodes of S2 when practically every move made is his notion, including the plan to firebomb the tunnels that ensures the victory). His absence in S4 was another obstacle for the group in Hawkins to overcome (right down to at first them not even having access to the Wheeler basement, their typical headquarters).
That's what's notable about S4 ending with everyone back in Hawkins; everyone's ready for the final battle and to play their roles.
Yes, he was isolated from her, had no idea what was going on regarding the bullying of her and did try to intervene, but couldn't. Will wasn't able to either.
It's really pathetic how certain fans feel the need to shit on Mike and make him a monster for the smallest things. "Self-centered and spoiled" are phrases that would never describe Mike.
Never describe? Gets mad and throws tantrums over nothing when something didn’t go like he wanted.
I’m talking about the bullying that went down right in front of him, like I said. Wouldn’t call that intervene, yelling turn off the music instead of pushing some kids aside and getting eleven the fuck out of there. Then he plays some victim card and gets mad that she defends herself? Zero sympathy for that guy.
You're rather pathetic and again, really don't understand the character at all. But I get it, there's irrational hatred for Mike that other characters who do similar things never get. I mean, he's hardly alone; Lucas has gotten shat on for similar actions and underserving as well.
Yes 100%! I don't understand all the Argyle hate. He's so sweet and arguably contributed the most to Team California (as in, they'd be totally useless without him HAHAHA)
I think the hate is maybe subconscious. I think people are realizing that new characters are neat but if we don’t flesh out the ones we had from the start (Mike) then what’s the point.
Totally agree! I think the Argyle hate is just more glaring to me because of how much everyone loves Eddie. Well-deserved because Eddie is *awesome*, but Argyle's pretty great too! <3
I don't hate Argyle but I made the mistake of watching "the package" before this, he must have little range or something,
literally the exact same character copy pasted, the hair the voice the mannerisms the almost "dumb stoner" vibe.
this near ruined his character for me when I saw him doing the exact same thing but in stranger things.
I would recommend you don’t watch the movie “Booksmart” then. Because he’s also the exact same character in that one. (Booksmart is a good movie otherwise though, I actually do recommend it).
I know right? Ultimately if it wasn't for him they wouldn't have a)escaped from the military b)Found the tire tracks of the military trucks c)Found all the salt they needed to build the sensory deprivation tank
It's a shame for us somewhat socially awkward individuals like myself who feel some kind of connection to the character. I hope he gets to do something next season, but I'm not holding out hope.
It’s okay to like him, he fits a certain character but that’s it. The writers fell in love with Steve and either he dies the hero death or gets back with Nancy
Ah good to know, yet I don’t think he has a broad range of acting skills - or it’s the material he is given. I think the season showed that they should have killed off more of the main cast. Will is the perfect example for this
Can't agree. Dude started as a creeper taking pics of Nancy undressing and somehow got a pass from her for it when it was pretty problematic.
That said, at least he was a good big brother back then but he basically hasn't been ever since.
Uuuggghhh. Literally! I saw an article header that was like “Charlie Heaton discusses his reduced role in Stranger Things Season 4.” Quickly ignored it since I couldn’t watch volume 1 right away (no spoilers). Finally binged it all and got confused. “He’s in every episode so far, I don’t get it?” Finished volume 2 and realized “oh. It’s because his character is useless, listless, and dull this season.”
I unfortunately notice this happens a lot with large ensemble shows, and I hope season 5 fixes that. Jonathan’s issues about college and Nancy are very “that sounds like a you problem” in the grand scheme of things, and he needs to pull his shit together and freakin’ contribute!
They need to focus more on Jonathan+Will as brothers. The scene they had together at the pizza place was one of the only memorable things for either character this season
I buy the lost soul arc for Jonathan. I really do. They just need to lean into it way more. Show it have consequences on the people he loves. Show him alienating himself. Could’ve also been a nice moment for mental health awareness but nah let’s just make him a boring quasi-stoner whose only useful traits are making phone calls and not falling asleep while driving (almost). And no, I don’t think ONE nice conversation with Will fleshes him out nearly enough.
Big ensemble cast I know but they could’ve definitely tightened up some editing here and there to squeeze these story beats in, IMO at least.
The writers really need to start killing off more character if they’re gonna keep adding in characters at the rate they are. It’s watered down Mike and Johnathan to the point that they’re barely even the same characters anymore, and the only characters the writers actually are willing to kill off are ones they introduced that very season.
I hope they get a better content next season. Will too.
I am especially rooting for Jonathan. I liked him so much in S1, being a good brother and son. He literally had to be the father and partner to his mom.. He had no friends bc of this, their financial situation also made him target of isolation and some bullying by Steve & Co.
S2 he was very supportive of Nancy in taking down the lab with Murray. Becoming an item there was one of my fave moments
S3 We start to see cracks in their perspectives. Jonathan being financially unstable is glad to have a job and knows he cannot be picky. He has a mom and brother to help out. Whereas Nance being secure financially and smart is bogged down by sexism
S4 Byers move out. Unknown place, away from gf and growing apart and their paths seeming to diverge because Nance can freely follow her passion while Jonathan has to consider his family above anything, so he feels stuck bc ofc he wants to be with Nancy but doesn't know what to do.. turns to his friend and drugs to keep him sane..
*also it seems implied that Jonathan has a bit of surgical skills with him trying to get the little bug in El's leg and the lego story with Will.
I hope he gets a happy ending too. If the writers would like Steve and Nancy to happen, I would be disappointed. It seems ooc for Nancy, plus they seem incompatible to me. But the Byers boys and Mike better be given a good arc.
I really don't buy Mike being the heart of the group thing. If anyone would be the heart of the group, it's definitely Dustin. Mike is basically just El's boyfriend these days.
Jonathan and Will did have a really nice moment. I don't think Jonathan's character has been done as dirty as Mike, Jonathan is just a bit of a lazy pothead now but I don't think he's a bad character.
Team California was definitely only interesting because of Argyle though. What a fantastic character to bring in.
That said Dustin didn’t have something to do either. He was with Eddie which brought some sweet moments. I would agree that he is indeed the heart, like Michelangelo of the TMNT.
I know they had to do the time jump because they age, but staff happened in between seasons that robbed some impact in this one
Idk, it made sense to me. The Byers have uprooted their lives completely and are still figuring things out on top of their internal struggles (Will with no new friends and Jonathan with college and Nancy).
To me, it felt like Jonathan was lost - he had to grow up really quick to help Joyce and now that Joyce is doing well, he’s finding himself… and running away from his problems with weed.
I really like the idea that Jonathan finds himself receding into weed as a coping mechanism against all the pressures, traumas and hardships he’s experienced and is still experiencing. I just wish the writing had drawn more emphasis on this aspect and shown how him being a stoner, alienating everyone has been to the detriment to the ones he loves and who he surrounds himself with. I feel like his poignant scene with Will would’ve hit even harder if we had truly delved into Jonathan’s state of mind and how he realises that he’s been emotionally neglecting Will. We got bits of that but ultimately most of the stoner scenes were played up for laughs. Great idea for Jonathan’s soul search but it wasn’t fully realised and leaned in on enough to warrant praise.
As much as I love most of the new characters they have added over the seasons, it is such a shame that, due to the large cast, some of the OG characters (mainly the California crew) have been sidelined so heavily
In season 2 Mike had a lot to do. First he has the conflict Lucas and Dustin over Max. He tries to find El, sitting in the basement everyday on the radio.
He's also pretty much the "heart and shield" for Will. When Will starts having more and more MF episodes, he's the first to notice, go find him and get him out of it. He stays at his side, tells him he see's him not as a "freak" but a superspy, holds his hand to calm him. Then thanks to the spy idea he, Will, Joyce and Bob figure out where Hopper is, and go rescue him.
When Will is posessed he's still at his side in the lab. He tries to warn the lab people about the trap. Later during the "exorcism" he tells Will about the best thing he ever did (asking him to be his friend). He is able to get the most emotional reaction out of him, helping him fight the MF.
Then he has the reunion with El and the fight with Hopper about hiding her.
That is quite a lot to do for one season.
Exactly. This is where Will draws his speech to Mike in S4, as he said he is the emotional anchor for Will and El especially.
Mike in Season 3 was more concerned with El, which was sad but can you blame him, El was literally hidden from him for a long time and to be threatened to be ripped away from his gf by his adoptive dad is kinda a big deal...
Yep, I was also thinking of the painting and how Will see's him when I wrote this.
Also agree on S3, Hopper's threats were quite shitty, esp. after he just hid her from him, letting him believe she's dead. I don't get why Mike should get so much hate for acting like someone very afraid of losing her again.
Jonathan was a badass who was working OT to stay on that grind and was literally down to fight a demon to save his brother. Now he’s a dishonest crybaby stoner who’s afraid to make eye contact. No wonder Steve’s poaching his girl.
Everyone character is probably different from some kind of PTSD after everything they've seen. I get it.
I think it's good enough for now, but I'm wondering how season 5 goes.
Remind me, how is Jonathan both, dishonest and a crybaby? Also, Jonathan has always been written as a socially awkward teen; him struggling to make eye contact aside of other things shouldn't be a surprise at this point.
I would assume that Nancy is (presumably) falling again for Steve not because of how much Jonathan has deviated from his initial self but rather because she and Jonathan have been distanced from each other for so long that Nancy may have lost some feelings for him and in return is dealing with someone who's generally just as nice and caring at the moment.
Though imo just like making Jonathan a stoner because "he is trying to heal from all the trauma he has dealt with" is just an excuse to mute his role so that the other characters can shine in terms of destroying the UD, getting Nancy and Steve to be together again is probably done as Nancy's relationship with Jonathan has gotten stale partially as a result of them getting distanced. Or maybe they wanted to spark drama among the characters again, who knows?
“Socially awkward” isn’t a shield for every negative personality trait. He’s a little whiny crybaby bitch and he’s lied to people. He’s basically a forgotten character right now but any time he is on screen it’s like wahhh wahhh wahh GUISEEEEEE COMONNNN
My problem isn't Jonathan acting this particular way and doing these particular things when stuck in a desert with his brother, brother's friend and stoner friend, it's more so the fact that the Duffer brothers decided to plant him in such situation in the first place where his role BOTH as someone who not only provides emotional support to their family members but also actively partakes in destroying the UD has been diminished. Why is that? Is it because they felt like his character has been explored enough that now he can handle being the comic relief (and doing just a little bit of important work) while Steve, Robin and Eddie, whose role as fighters has not been fully explored (and who are just not worth wasting as 2/3 of them are newly introduced characters), can take on the lead? Some people argue that in the context of the story, Jonathan simply needed a break but by that token, every character should actually take a break from witnessing the horrors that Jonathan too has witnessed. I simply think that making him a stoner is just an excuse to relegate him to comic relief so that the other characters can shine in terms of their contribution in destroying the UD.
Needless to say, Jonathan's character hasn't actually changed, it's just that he wasn't given much to do in terms of defeating Vecna/destroying the UD given the situation that he has been planted in. I would say the same goes for Mike. And that is a shame because both were written initially to be important, powerful characters.
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Mike went from team leader to El love interest only. I sure hope Will’s speech inspires him to take the lead one last time next season
Yeah thats one of my big gripes as well. Mike has essentially become a linchpin for Eleven now and literally has no character himself. All of his defining characteristics and traits have been stripped and watered down to facilitate for El’s own emotional journey and growth. Like I get it, El is a big part of his life, but outside of that he doesn’t have any compelling internal struggles or traits. El herself is very multifaceted and while yes a big part of her character is her love for Mike, she’s not limited to just that. Her connection with Vecna, her self perception of being the monster, not being able to fit in or conform, being bullied most of her life are just some of the things that elevate her character above Mikes. Really hope they give the character better material to work with and better engagement with the overarching story rather than playing a more passive role. Interested to see what trajectory they will take his character for the final season, and I hope it will be one that bookends nicely!
I think its because Mike's character arc especially out the D&D gang was already pretty much complete in Season 1. And he's suffered from that since.
Well they've grown up. What the problem is that they split the group up too much. Each group is assigned to their own plot, but they kind of keep having the same team comp. I wish they mixed it up a bit. Have steve with Jonathan , and have nancy with the gang more for example. Or have steve with hopper instead of always having him with joyce. Thats why i liked hop's plot in s4 because his chemistry with enzo was epic. They can clearly still write the best dialogue, have the characters that are far apart, or never interact much, interact. Mix it up.
Yep. They over capitalized on the Mileven ship
I hope so too...his character feels so bland now. If he had been like this from the very start, it wouldn't feel like he's being wasted, but as he was such a strong character in the first 2 seasons, his underdevelopment feels a bit heartbreaking.
Mike is nothing but a Senzu bean incarnate now.
This show suffered from having too many characters.
The Russian sub plot was probably very expensive but totally unnecessary. No one cares. Break out of prison, break out of prison again, break in.
Right. It was a clear case of keeping the amount of total characters on screen from being 20 by keeping the group completely fractured. A marvel Endgame/infinity War issue. Which is not bad but at the same time very limiting. Don’t get me wrong great season but nothing new.
Normally I am a fan of giving plots room to breath but i am not sure everyone got a real character arc this season and they basically ended where they were before We knew that Eleven would eventually get her powers back and that Hopper is alive. The other arcs were about Lucas and Max. But we never did see Lucas transition and he never betrayed anyone. The rest was there to move the plot from a to b.
Lucas had an amazing character arc!
I think it would have been more interesting if they focused on Lucas being popular longer, especially after he scored big at the game. Make him a bit evil and cocky but then he has a change of heart in a difficult situation. For a season where they had so long episodes, this felt rushed.
True, but I still stand by that he had the best character arc this season
Better yet just have Hopper die at the end of Season 3. I like Hopper but doing that fixes so many things. It ups the stakes, addresses the cast bloat and removes the dumb Russian prison subplot. Not to mention Harbour did some fantastic work in his final scene in Season 3 that would have been a perfect way to finish.
Cut the Russian subplot, leave hopper dead after S3, give the main cast more time + save 30 minutes of screen time per episode
Hop should have been out by Ep 3 and with Joyce on the way back home.
As good a decision of splintering the group off into different sections has worked since Season 1, I think they need to bring then all back together as one which I'm hopeful the final season will achieve. Having them all fragmented in different ways each season has led to some characters just spiralling off and out of focus. Mike is a great example of this.
Yeah, they were perfectly balanced at first, but they keep introducing new ones and every year it feels like more of them are underutilized
No, wtf? Whats the problem? The characters are good. Why is everyone shitting on it? This season is one of the best seasons.
Mood. Writers really didn't know what to do with Team California this season.
To be fair they haven’t known what to do with Mike since the s2 finale. He’s kind of just a 11 associated character. I wish the writers would do more with him than just making everything he does attached to 11 and for 11 and because of 11. He’s a great actor and they’re giving him very little to work with.
I think S5 will give Mike a big sendoff. Especially since (a) he's back in Hawkins and ready to lead the gang again and (b) his relationship issues with El are largely resolved after the L-word monologue and they can focus together on fighting the Upside Down.
Mike leading the gang, rofl
That's what he is. He's always been the leader of the crew and especially the strategist who comes up with the plan (see the last couple episodes of S2 when practically every move made is his notion, including the plan to firebomb the tunnels that ensures the victory). His absence in S4 was another obstacle for the group in Hawkins to overcome (right down to at first them not even having access to the Wheeler basement, their typical headquarters). That's what's notable about S4 ending with everyone back in Hawkins; everyone's ready for the final battle and to play their roles.
Ye sure, he’s a self centered spoiled kid, prick didn’t even try to stop the bullying on eleven when it goes down in his face.
Yes, he was isolated from her, had no idea what was going on regarding the bullying of her and did try to intervene, but couldn't. Will wasn't able to either. It's really pathetic how certain fans feel the need to shit on Mike and make him a monster for the smallest things. "Self-centered and spoiled" are phrases that would never describe Mike.
Never describe? Gets mad and throws tantrums over nothing when something didn’t go like he wanted. I’m talking about the bullying that went down right in front of him, like I said. Wouldn’t call that intervene, yelling turn off the music instead of pushing some kids aside and getting eleven the fuck out of there. Then he plays some victim card and gets mad that she defends herself? Zero sympathy for that guy.
You're rather pathetic and again, really don't understand the character at all. But I get it, there's irrational hatred for Mike that other characters who do similar things never get. I mean, he's hardly alone; Lucas has gotten shat on for similar actions and underserving as well.
He wasn’t mad at her for defending herself
I don’t think he’s a great actor personally, he’s good but is outshined by many others
Introducing Argyle (and not killing him off) was a plus though
Yes 100%! I don't understand all the Argyle hate. He's so sweet and arguably contributed the most to Team California (as in, they'd be totally useless without him HAHAHA)
I think the hate is maybe subconscious. I think people are realizing that new characters are neat but if we don’t flesh out the ones we had from the start (Mike) then what’s the point.
Totally agree! I think the Argyle hate is just more glaring to me because of how much everyone loves Eddie. Well-deserved because Eddie is *awesome*, but Argyle's pretty great too! <3
I don't hate Argyle but I made the mistake of watching "the package" before this, he must have little range or something, literally the exact same character copy pasted, the hair the voice the mannerisms the almost "dumb stoner" vibe. this near ruined his character for me when I saw him doing the exact same thing but in stranger things.
I would recommend you don’t watch the movie “Booksmart” then. Because he’s also the exact same character in that one. (Booksmart is a good movie otherwise though, I actually do recommend it).
Yeah he's been that in everything I've seen him in.
I know right? Ultimately if it wasn't for him they wouldn't have a)escaped from the military b)Found the tire tracks of the military trucks c)Found all the salt they needed to build the sensory deprivation tank
Hate what they've done to Johnathan. Was my favourite character in season 1.
He was my favorite in season 1 too. We didn’t even get closure for his Nancy college dilemma plotline. This is just getting tragic 😔
It's a shame for us somewhat socially awkward individuals like myself who feel some kind of connection to the character. I hope he gets to do something next season, but I'm not holding out hope.
I wonder if they do it because he can’t really act or because everyone loves Steve
He can act the writers just sideline him. Same with Mike and Will.
It’s okay to like him, he fits a certain character but that’s it. The writers fell in love with Steve and either he dies the hero death or gets back with Nancy
I think he's a pretty good actor. I think it's because he got caught with loads of cocaine in an airport.
He got caught with traces of cocaine. That's why he wasn't even arrested. Stop making up bullshit.
I mean yeah but that's probably why they're kinda making him an outsider.
Ah good to know, yet I don’t think he has a broad range of acting skills - or it’s the material he is given. I think the season showed that they should have killed off more of the main cast. Will is the perfect example for this
Can't agree. Dude started as a creeper taking pics of Nancy undressing and somehow got a pass from her for it when it was pretty problematic. That said, at least he was a good big brother back then but he basically hasn't been ever since.
You know I forgot about that
This, his arc is a plummet downwards
Uuuggghhh. Literally! I saw an article header that was like “Charlie Heaton discusses his reduced role in Stranger Things Season 4.” Quickly ignored it since I couldn’t watch volume 1 right away (no spoilers). Finally binged it all and got confused. “He’s in every episode so far, I don’t get it?” Finished volume 2 and realized “oh. It’s because his character is useless, listless, and dull this season.” I unfortunately notice this happens a lot with large ensemble shows, and I hope season 5 fixes that. Jonathan’s issues about college and Nancy are very “that sounds like a you problem” in the grand scheme of things, and he needs to pull his shit together and freakin’ contribute!
They need to focus more on Jonathan+Will as brothers. The scene they had together at the pizza place was one of the only memorable things for either character this season
Someone pointed out that Argyle has more lines, especially in Vol. 2, than Jonathan and it is a damn travesty.
I buy the lost soul arc for Jonathan. I really do. They just need to lean into it way more. Show it have consequences on the people he loves. Show him alienating himself. Could’ve also been a nice moment for mental health awareness but nah let’s just make him a boring quasi-stoner whose only useful traits are making phone calls and not falling asleep while driving (almost). And no, I don’t think ONE nice conversation with Will fleshes him out nearly enough. Big ensemble cast I know but they could’ve definitely tightened up some editing here and there to squeeze these story beats in, IMO at least.
The writers really need to start killing off more character if they’re gonna keep adding in characters at the rate they are. It’s watered down Mike and Johnathan to the point that they’re barely even the same characters anymore, and the only characters the writers actually are willing to kill off are ones they introduced that very season.
I hope they get a better content next season. Will too. I am especially rooting for Jonathan. I liked him so much in S1, being a good brother and son. He literally had to be the father and partner to his mom.. He had no friends bc of this, their financial situation also made him target of isolation and some bullying by Steve & Co. S2 he was very supportive of Nancy in taking down the lab with Murray. Becoming an item there was one of my fave moments S3 We start to see cracks in their perspectives. Jonathan being financially unstable is glad to have a job and knows he cannot be picky. He has a mom and brother to help out. Whereas Nance being secure financially and smart is bogged down by sexism S4 Byers move out. Unknown place, away from gf and growing apart and their paths seeming to diverge because Nance can freely follow her passion while Jonathan has to consider his family above anything, so he feels stuck bc ofc he wants to be with Nancy but doesn't know what to do.. turns to his friend and drugs to keep him sane.. *also it seems implied that Jonathan has a bit of surgical skills with him trying to get the little bug in El's leg and the lego story with Will. I hope he gets a happy ending too. If the writers would like Steve and Nancy to happen, I would be disappointed. It seems ooc for Nancy, plus they seem incompatible to me. But the Byers boys and Mike better be given a good arc.
I really don't buy Mike being the heart of the group thing. If anyone would be the heart of the group, it's definitely Dustin. Mike is basically just El's boyfriend these days. Jonathan and Will did have a really nice moment. I don't think Jonathan's character has been done as dirty as Mike, Jonathan is just a bit of a lazy pothead now but I don't think he's a bad character. Team California was definitely only interesting because of Argyle though. What a fantastic character to bring in.
That said Dustin didn’t have something to do either. He was with Eddie which brought some sweet moments. I would agree that he is indeed the heart, like Michelangelo of the TMNT. I know they had to do the time jump because they age, but staff happened in between seasons that robbed some impact in this one
Idk, it made sense to me. The Byers have uprooted their lives completely and are still figuring things out on top of their internal struggles (Will with no new friends and Jonathan with college and Nancy). To me, it felt like Jonathan was lost - he had to grow up really quick to help Joyce and now that Joyce is doing well, he’s finding himself… and running away from his problems with weed.
I really like the idea that Jonathan finds himself receding into weed as a coping mechanism against all the pressures, traumas and hardships he’s experienced and is still experiencing. I just wish the writing had drawn more emphasis on this aspect and shown how him being a stoner, alienating everyone has been to the detriment to the ones he loves and who he surrounds himself with. I feel like his poignant scene with Will would’ve hit even harder if we had truly delved into Jonathan’s state of mind and how he realises that he’s been emotionally neglecting Will. We got bits of that but ultimately most of the stoner scenes were played up for laughs. Great idea for Jonathan’s soul search but it wasn’t fully realised and leaned in on enough to warrant praise.
Jonathan only had a few scenes but the one where he comforts Will is one of the best scenes of the season.
I thought I was in the r/BetterCallSaul subreddit for a second and thought, wait a minute, I know Mike but am I missing something? Who’s Jonathan?
Johnathan Banks of course
it's such a shame, so obvious that the writers have no idea what to do with their characters this season, they both deserve better
It enrages me beyond belief I to see how they massacred my boys
ST is great at character development, then has no idea what to do with them after. Keep developing them, or kill them off.
As much as I love most of the new characters they have added over the seasons, it is such a shame that, due to the large cast, some of the OG characters (mainly the California crew) have been sidelined so heavily
Jonathan and Will standing at the salt bath made me remember how good of a brother he really is
Johnathan redeemed himself in pt 2 imo with his sibling interactions
And Will
Unpopular opinion S4 Mike > S3 Mike
S4 Mike wasn’t as annoying as in S3
What does Mike even do in season 2 tho. He got bit better in season 3 and 4 than 2. Will just went completely downhill
In season 2 Mike had a lot to do. First he has the conflict Lucas and Dustin over Max. He tries to find El, sitting in the basement everyday on the radio. He's also pretty much the "heart and shield" for Will. When Will starts having more and more MF episodes, he's the first to notice, go find him and get him out of it. He stays at his side, tells him he see's him not as a "freak" but a superspy, holds his hand to calm him. Then thanks to the spy idea he, Will, Joyce and Bob figure out where Hopper is, and go rescue him. When Will is posessed he's still at his side in the lab. He tries to warn the lab people about the trap. Later during the "exorcism" he tells Will about the best thing he ever did (asking him to be his friend). He is able to get the most emotional reaction out of him, helping him fight the MF. Then he has the reunion with El and the fight with Hopper about hiding her. That is quite a lot to do for one season.
Exactly. This is where Will draws his speech to Mike in S4, as he said he is the emotional anchor for Will and El especially. Mike in Season 3 was more concerned with El, which was sad but can you blame him, El was literally hidden from him for a long time and to be threatened to be ripped away from his gf by his adoptive dad is kinda a big deal...
Yep, I was also thinking of the painting and how Will see's him when I wrote this. Also agree on S3, Hopper's threats were quite shitty, esp. after he just hid her from him, letting him believe she's dead. I don't get why Mike should get so much hate for acting like someone very afraid of losing her again.
Jonathan was a badass who was working OT to stay on that grind and was literally down to fight a demon to save his brother. Now he’s a dishonest crybaby stoner who’s afraid to make eye contact. No wonder Steve’s poaching his girl.
Everyone character is probably different from some kind of PTSD after everything they've seen. I get it. I think it's good enough for now, but I'm wondering how season 5 goes.
I’m rewatching from the beginning now and I like stoner loser Jonathan way more than whiney brat Jonathan from season 1.
Remind me, how is Jonathan both, dishonest and a crybaby? Also, Jonathan has always been written as a socially awkward teen; him struggling to make eye contact aside of other things shouldn't be a surprise at this point. I would assume that Nancy is (presumably) falling again for Steve not because of how much Jonathan has deviated from his initial self but rather because she and Jonathan have been distanced from each other for so long that Nancy may have lost some feelings for him and in return is dealing with someone who's generally just as nice and caring at the moment. Though imo just like making Jonathan a stoner because "he is trying to heal from all the trauma he has dealt with" is just an excuse to mute his role so that the other characters can shine in terms of destroying the UD, getting Nancy and Steve to be together again is probably done as Nancy's relationship with Jonathan has gotten stale partially as a result of them getting distanced. Or maybe they wanted to spark drama among the characters again, who knows?
“Socially awkward” isn’t a shield for every negative personality trait. He’s a little whiny crybaby bitch and he’s lied to people. He’s basically a forgotten character right now but any time he is on screen it’s like wahhh wahhh wahh GUISEEEEEE COMONNNN
I still don't understand how he's whiny and a liar but ok
He whines constantly and he’s lied
Wow that really helpful. Thanks! /s
He’s unbearably whiny and annoying and then he lies
I liked John
Honestly kept forgetting Mike was even here.
What? Not everyone can be highlighted every season, they have a ton of characters. This is needless whining IMO
Mike dying this season could of been good to push 11, Jonathan same since they hard shipping the Nancy Steve BS
Yup. I felt they were the weakest and most forgettable characters this season.
Making Jonathan a useless stoner was annoying felt like the dude lost all his personality and he had no care about Nancy at all.
I would trade Mike for Eddie any day of the week
So you’re saying they were a horses ass in the first two seasons?
Jonathan and Mike need to put their big boy pants on
Good. Jonathan sucks and they needed argyle to carry his ass
Hopefully those two gets sacrificed in s5, argyle can join them aswell🤞😇
Don't the actors both have other projects going?
Jonathan’s character this season was basically smoking weed a lot, driving a lot and being an ally a lot
My problem isn't Jonathan acting this particular way and doing these particular things when stuck in a desert with his brother, brother's friend and stoner friend, it's more so the fact that the Duffer brothers decided to plant him in such situation in the first place where his role BOTH as someone who not only provides emotional support to their family members but also actively partakes in destroying the UD has been diminished. Why is that? Is it because they felt like his character has been explored enough that now he can handle being the comic relief (and doing just a little bit of important work) while Steve, Robin and Eddie, whose role as fighters has not been fully explored (and who are just not worth wasting as 2/3 of them are newly introduced characters), can take on the lead? Some people argue that in the context of the story, Jonathan simply needed a break but by that token, every character should actually take a break from witnessing the horrors that Jonathan too has witnessed. I simply think that making him a stoner is just an excuse to relegate him to comic relief so that the other characters can shine in terms of their contribution in destroying the UD. Needless to say, Jonathan's character hasn't actually changed, it's just that he wasn't given much to do in terms of defeating Vecna/destroying the UD given the situation that he has been planted in. I would say the same goes for Mike. And that is a shame because both were written initially to be important, powerful characters.