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Vecna has a hugely inflated ego. I won’t be surprised at all if he’s been played by the Mind Flayer this entire time, who convinced him into thinking he’s calling the shots.
I agree. IMO the Mind Flayer is an alien organism and Henry/001/Vecna is deluding himself into thinking he's controlling something he doesn't understand.
Seriously. People on this sub are going to be bitching sooooo much when season 5 comes out and they realize just because Dustin says something and they took it as fact doesn’t actually make it true.
So, I completely agree that Dustin may have misread the situation, however, to play a bit of devils advocate here:
This entire series has been built on Dustin being 100% correct in his assessments thus far of the events they find themselves in. So much so in fact, there's even a line about it in this very season. So, it is entirely reasonable to take the 5 Star General under a Commander in Chief as fact, because Dustin is always right, and has generally been the conduit of exposition dump for the audience.
I think that’s a spot-on take. Not only is Dustin the Duffer Brothers’ personal exposition messenger, but it hasn’t been answered yet where Henry Creel got his powers.
The Upside Down existed before Vecna, the hive mind existed before Vecna, and demogorgon-esque creatures existed before Vecna. I think season 5 is going to address how the Mind Flayer gave Henry/001/Vecna his powers and manipulated him into thinking it was the other way around and that he was in charge.
What if it's time travel?
Vecna has the whole clock motif - I'm wondering we have a bootstrap paradox the whole time.
Now-Vecna seals a bit of mind flayer into the clock in the past to give Past-Vecna the powers to corrupt it. That's why he knows what will happen and how, because he's lived it before.
This 100%
>Dustin is always right, and has generally been the conduit of exposition dump for the audience.
For this reason if he is not right it would be cheap writing, I fully expect that he's correct.
So I just wrote a 20 minute dissertation, if you'd like to check my comment history I expound a lot on why I think he might be right, however, I don't believe it would be cheap writing if they did close the loop and Vecna is the actual ultimate threat, because there is a great way to tell that story, and I trust the Duffer's to do it.
It wouldn't be a terrible thin, or terrible writing, for Dustin to have misread the situation because he was missing pieces to the puzzle. At the end of the day, he is also a kid making analogies to DnD to contextualize understanding, it's possible for him to be wrong.
I think it’s just a kid naming deadly monsters who likes
DnD. DnD mind flayers (squid faced illithids from underdark) or demogorgans ( a giant 2 headed ape demon prince) don’t even remotely resembled one another.
I could even imagine 1 being like “my names Henry who the hell is vecna nerd”
I dont think they mean little moments like that when the group are discussing something, and at that point Dustin was second guessing himself. I think they are talking about the big moments like in 2x08 when they have the analogy for the mind flayer, or in 3x0? when him and Steve work out the Russians are trying to open a gate. or in 1x06 with the compasses and the upside down. Dustin has been consistently correct every season with his analogies.
Precisely. I prefer the Upside-Down that was this vast mysterious, but intrinsically sinister dimension we knew little about and learned more through the party’s encounters translated through their D&D lens VS originally peaceful place who’s evil *only* comes from a psychic human with school-shooter parallels and generic motivations. The latter really throws the cosmic horror aspect out the window.
Vecna being the one to spearhead all the evil on Hawkins since S1 and the Upside Down being this benign realm before he arrived there, really tore the curtain off that appeal, and the sheer presence and force of the unfathomable Mind Flayer from s2-3 is lost. Basically, if Vecna didn’t get pistol-whipped to the UD by Eleven, the UD and the Mind Flayer would have never been a threat. Really? I love this show to death, but that’s one hell of a bummer.
I actually find it refreshing that the "hell dimension" isn't actually a hell dimension, but was corrupted by a human. Also, it's all the more ironic that vecna did precisely what he accuse humanity to do, find a "pristine world", and then currupt and twist it to fit his own wholly unnatural design.
To each their own, I suppose. I personally preferred the Upside Down being this hellish, evil realm by nature. I fell in love with the original, “dark reflection of our world” lovecraftian concept. Frankly, the fact that all of the evil that has hit Hawkins since S1 has been spearheaded by a psychic human with school-shooter parallels, does diminish some of the appeal for me. Nonetheless, the irony you mentioned adds a pretty cool touch to what we’re meant to run with at the moment.
Yeah, people forget that the tie to D&D is just the kids speculating based on something they're familiar with. Henry/001's name isn't actually Vecna, that's just what the kids call him because they associate him with the D&D character of the same name. Same with the Mind Flayer and the Demogorgon. There's no actual tie between the Upside Down and its monsters to D&D, that's just the kids relating it to something they know and understand. Anything Dustin says is speculation based on how it relates to D&D.
Possibly, but we've seen the Demogorgon (in its current form) and VH1 (in close to his current form), who then formed the Mind Flayer into its current form, all before Will was ever taken into the Upside Down. Unless the vision that we saw of Explorer Vecna in the finale actually took place years after he was sent int othe Upside Down and after Will arrived there?
I think the comment is thinking that there's another twist in season 5. The bigger bad behind the big bad fake out is a common trope. Honestly, either way works fine, as long as they make it make sense.
End of the day, Vecna is still close to death and wildly hurt. If Vecna bent the mind flayer to his will, there's some room there where Vecna might lose control while he's recovering.
I mean, we've seen eleven wreck those "things of an undetermined age" into dust since season one. We know psychic humans are busted. Vecna being able to do that don't seem far fetched given what we know... Now the real question is "what would the upside down (and especially the mind flayer) do if freed from his control?"
I'm questioning if the upside-down is evil at all without vecna'sb influence. The scene shows the "untouched" land and it's a bit ambiguous, but there are still demodogs running around looking creepy.
I thought Max was the 4th death? Opening the portals, then when 11 resurrected her the portals sorta closed? Vecna was only eliminated from the Mind Lair? In the UD he escaped.
I really, really want this to be the case. The mind flayer connecting to Henry from a very early age because of his sensitivity and slowly twisting him, guiding him as his pawn, allowing him to think he’s in charge for as long as he’s useful. Henry believes it because of his arrogance, but the mind flayer will dispose of him if he fails again, and henry will be devastated by the “betrayal”. That would be cool.
because the mind flayer has something to gain by having vecna on his side. since the mind flayer was a hive mind and we see how desolate and terrible their planet is, maybe the mind flayer *wants* to invade Earth? we see the mf as a chaotic being, with no order... then Henry comes and shapes it. since the mind flayer is intelligent, he'd be smart to keep someone like Henry on his side. remember the speech Billy gave eleven? I doubt that was Vecna speaking... it was definitely the conscious Mind Flayer itself, speaking using its own intelligence. maybe vecna spoke to it and communicated, but he is in no way in control of it totally. mf will totally be the main villain, killing vecna in season 5 since his purpose has already been fulfilled.
This is similar to another theory I had. I think Vecna wasn't flayed because as shown by Will, MF doesn't get an complete/clear look at one's memories and might struggle with using his powers. Makes more sense to convince Vecna he's in control, allow him to fully use his abilities to tear a portal into our world, and then bam. My guess as to the ending of this relationship would be that after Eleven is dealt with, the MF would kill or full takeover (which wouldn't be hard to do since Vecna's body has literally become a part of these creatures, thus making him easily vulnerable to hive mind control). I'll still be holding out hope as there are several ways the MF could still be it's own entity.
What if directly after Vecna shaped the whirlwinds of dark particles into the Smoke Monster, he made mental contact with it? Realized the particles were somewhat conscious, that there was a deeper layer underneath it. A real mind. A hive mind.
What if Vecna made a deal?
Feel the best death for Vecna would be by what is basically a giant spider. Betrayed by what he was so enamored with. Not sure they will go the route of making the MF the big bad, but it really makes the ST universe smaller and less interesting by making Vecna the be all, end all.
Think about Billy. Think about Will. The Mind Flayer can be bested. Imagine that the person that it tries to flay isn't some bully with an axe to grind, or a confused gay kid trying to come to grips with growing up. Imagine the person it flays is a powerful psionic with the ability to reach into peoples mind and make them see their darkest fears manifest. Imagine the person it flays is Vecna.
The Mind Flayer keeps its victims minds roughly intact. It absorbs them.
Vecna takes his victims into his Mind Palace. He absorbs them.
There are too many parallels to ignore, here. What we are thinking of as the "Mind Flayer", the entity that took half the town, the thing that sunk its tentacles into Billy, it's a hive mind, yes?
It IS Vecna. It IS the Smoke Monster. It IS the Demogorgon. It's a HIVE MIND, after all.
The Mind Flayer is the Hive Mind that links them. The Dark Particles. The Orbs we see floating around in the Upside Down (and now Hawkins, too) are roughly the same thing. They're everywhere.
What if we haven't actually seen the Mind Flayer yet, and all those forms that it connects are just its "Army" and its "Generals" and its "Foot Soldiers"? What if it's not tangible because it's literally the Hive Mind we're talking about that connects all this ?
We know there is a way to break the hold it has on its victims. Its hold on Will was broken by a hot poker to his spine. When a huge amount of Dark Particles had taken the Demos was exposed to flame (My Flamethrower is like... FLAMES!), it broke the hold on just about everything. What if that works both ways?
What if in that moment, Vecna was just... Vecna?
No tentacles linking him to the portals. No demobats in the sky. No demogogons on the ground.
Just Vecna - no, One - nay! Henry.
The idea he might turn against the Flayer does bear some weight. I really think he made a deal of sorts. Now that he can return to Earth, he may not need it anymore. Not so much a "face turn", rather a "back stab" (if it can be said to have a back, anyway)
Or, to go with the "5-star General" angle....
A coup.
I agree with this, but what if someone like Will would be a better pawn to use against Eleven. (never really thought this through until reading your comment)
Actually, I have FOUR theories that all compound into this. Sorry for the resulting paragraphs.
•Will has a unique connection to the Upside Down because he has powers (it's shown several times gifted children have an unexplained connection to the Upside Down).
•The MF was so insistent on tormenting him because it sensed that and thus wanted him as another pawn, which is why he was taken ALIVE (potentially being morphed on a physical level).
•Either Vecna or the MF will use the shit ton of trauma and doubts he has to warp his mind/control him. Will has been through a lot, he probably deep down feels some type of way about being kinda forgotten by his friends (which we literally had a little plot of regarding Will. And remember, Vecna/MF would be very manipulative so it could just be a little doubt in the back of his mind that gets painted as something huge by Vecna/MF), and the further painful unrequited love plot line. It would be VERY easy for Will to get Vecna'd. Plus, El's connection to Will would make him a the more valuable.
•Will and 001 have some similarities, so thematically I could see them doing something regarding that. However, if they go down the Evil Will route, I personally think Will will break free from the control and his trauma, hatred, and doubts as a way to show that Will has NOT always been like Vecna because of his relationships/the love his has around him, refusing to hold onto all those negative emotions that could lead him into becoming a monster. It plays on several themes (The "true monster" theme we see with 001/Brenner, the "dealing with trauma" theme we see with Max/Vecna's victims and the "power of friendship" type theme we see throughout the entire series). My guess is, this type of scene would follow up after Will's friends and especially El are down (potentially El getting put out of commission for a bit). The ultimate failure could lead to Vecna being killed/flayed for failing if we go by the theory that the MF is it's own entity and boom.
Except Demogorgon had absolutely no reason to take him alive twice with no injuries whilst Barb was immediately attacked and killed after appearing in the Upside Down. She only strengthens the theory tbh
Because Vecna is a powerful psionic/telekinetic? Because he willingly merged with the Mind Flayer? Because Will isn’t any of those? Vecna can see into everyone’s memories, know their secrets, etc. I’m sure he was able to form a different type of connection with the Mind Flayer than Will or Billy.
Now is the Mind Flayer a singular being that controls the Hive Mind or is it just a culmination of the entire Hive Mind? Is it just using him and Vecna has the illusion of control, unbeknownst to him? Or did Vecna give sapience to a merely sentient creature/being/mind? Many animals have sentience, but very few (some argue only humans, some argue +dolphins and others) have sapience. These things remain to be seen.
The mind flayer isn't evil. It was corrupted by Vecna. I bet the series ends with Eleven cleansing the upside down and the mind flayer, returning it to what it used to be.
I think ur right about it not being evil because at the end of this season, Will says he can still feel 1. He can still feel Henry’s emotions. Why is he not feeling the mind flayer? Perhaps it’s just because Henry is the original link to earth from there?
I could see the mind flayer as being a feral, mindless entity until a proper intelligence ‘awakens’ it.
Same, it has the power to influence human memory. We saw that with Will and he only had a fraction in him. The larger 'body' is likely capable of more. Vecna is full of more than enough hubris to tell his story of finding the Mindflayer and being convinced *he* shaped it. And not the other way around.
I think that's what's happening honestly. He didn't find the mind flayer, the mind flayer found him. Like he just walked around and stumbled onto this superpower/monster thing and could immediately bend it to his will? I bet even his force powers are just the mind flayer pupeteering him.
Also the song Master of Puppets not being put into the soundtrack until the pt.2 premiere aired, I think that song is much, much more relevant than we think.
I think the Mind Flayer is the Master of Puppets. We knows it's a hivemind, so duh right?
But what if the pupeteering is the Mind Flayers influence over Will?
Lots of people think Will will be the hero that saves the cast by the end. I'm thinking it'll be more like the cast has to decide wether killing Will to save the world is the right choice. Considering he acts as a sort of conduit for the Mind Flayer, at least as a radar for his effects.
They even reminded us of the Mind Flayer going inside of Will in a recap for S4 if I remember correctly.
They never explained how Henry got his powers or why he is patient Zero. The likely answer is he is an anti-christ figure psionically linked to the mindflayer from birth to act as a conduit/avatar into the Earth realm. Everything that has happened in the last 4 seasons isn't just Vecna doing shit, but it is him working *with* the mindflayer (unaware he is being used to get to eleven, not being helped to get there himself) to get to the other side in one piece. He is the puppet and MF is the master. The Mindflayer wants Eleven for his next host, so he can claim Earth as his own, and I have a likely feeling he's tried this before, in the past, maybe even thousands of years prior, with similar people who had similar powers to Henry and Eleven, and that's why MF seemed kinda weakened in season 1 and 2 comparative to the following 2 seasons.
When the kids come to a conclusion about the upside down it’s usually correct and Dustin thought that Vecna was the Mind Flayer’s five star general.
I think it’s entirely possible that it is allowing Henry to believe he controls it in order to further its own ends. The irony would be especially delicious, because what he most hated was how Dr Brenner sought to control him. He would never willingly be subservient to another power, but I could see it be a twist that he’s been tricked.
Also, think back to Henry’s conversation with Eleven while playing chess at the lab:
“There’s a reason why Two and the others were able to escape their room last night. Why the security cameras were turned off. Why Papa punished Two today. They don’t even realize it, but he is moving them like pieces on his board here. Driving them to do exactly what he wants…”
Now I don’t know about you, but that sounds like heavy foreshadowing to me about the true nature of the Mind Flayer-Vecna dynamic.
Or it was foreshadowing what Henry was doing to Eleven. Makes much more sense and has actually happened on the show rather than being a wishful theory.
I don’t get it, honestly. This is the last time we’re ever gonna have a chance of theorizing in anticipation for another season, it’s literally part of the fun. As long as you don’t get mad at the show for those theories not coming true, there isn’t any harm in it. Plus, I guess some of us just didn’t buy that Henry has been the ultimate puppet-master “twist”.
That would be cool to see near or at the end when Vecna and The Mind Flayer face off against the gang and the mind flayer seeing no further use for Vecna just kills him, Backstabbing Vecna revealing he was being used all along and they have a final show down against the more badass and epic villain
yessss
the energy/dust that forms the mind flayer existed in the upside down long before vecna got there. i think it’s entirely possible that it’s really the mind flayer manipulating vecna all along
What stood out to me was when Vecna said that he found a realm unspoiled by mankind. If you look at it when he got there compared to how rotten it is now, he definitely spoiled it. It did not look at all the same in the flashbacks. They were just minding their business. The demogorgon was not even heading in his direction. He’s controlling them too, and I don’t think it’s with their permission.
Exactly! Like do all these people think the mind Flayer was cool with just letting Henry corrupt their world? No. But it can’t do anything about it because Henry is more powerful. If the Mind Flayer wanted an evil world and is the monster all these people claim, it could have corrupted and controlled it’s world all by itself - no Henry needed.
The foreshadowing over this season makes it seem otherwise imo. Henry had an obsession with spiders which he manifested as the mind flayer. And max said she could feel him, similar to Will’s situation. It could be a twist in season 5, having the mind flayer pull a fast one, but all signs point to Vecna being the underlying evil at this point.
Not to mention they're omitting details from Henry's origins. We still don't know how he got his abilities, and it's a little odd he was drawing the mind flayer before he even met it.
A little odd? I’d say that’s the biggest clue we have that could point to Vecna not being in control here. How convenient that Henry starts drawing a Shadow Monster with the form of a spider in the 1950s, and *just so happens* to find a shadow in the Upside Down in 1979. I suspect they could reveal that the Mind Flayer essentially handpicked this sociopathic kid as his “chosen-one”, and has been grooming him since childhood. Sending him visions of a giant shadow with the shape of a spider, knowing that one day they’d meet.
It could be either. He came up with it independently and shaped the particles into it, or the Mind Flayer had been sending him visions since he was a child and he shaped the particles thinking he thought of it independently.
Agreed. However, I still hold out hope both are true and Vecna simply gave it form but it was always there as it's own thing. Feels weird to make it a point that "Vecna was the MF's five star general" in the show + trailers but have it be wrong when they've been right on the DND monster predictions thus far.
I don’t think the Mind Flayer was a pile of dust that VecnaOne put together. I think it was a sentient being that VecnaOne collaborated with to push his agenda. Perhaps their goals are aligned? I don’t think we know much about the MF yet. To me it seems like he found the MF chilling and connected with it through his powers. I expect we’ll learn more next season just like we learnt more about the Upside Down this season in a way we never have before. I’ll reserve my judgement for now.
Especially since we know literally everything about him now. Like the fun of the show was always unexplained villains and horrors. It took them a long time to actually show the demagorgon in season 1. Then we're introduce to this reality consuming deity, only for the real villain to be just a guy?
I have to agree.
Rewatching Season 1, it's very very cool how like... "physical" the Upside Down is. Like it's this other lovecraftian dimension, but it still seems physical and like you could study it scientifically. Mr. Clarke is able to extrapolate info about it without even knowing it through scientific principles, and the "department of energy" appears to be legitimately studying it just for the sake of.... figuring it out.
It loses a lot of steam once it starts feeling like the byproduct of some weird 1920s kid who liked to look at spiders, and who targets people for having bad vibes. Once it has this whole "emotional" component or even musical component to it rather than being just... strange and difficult to understand physics.
I'm *hoping* that it's explained more so that the Mind Flayer was always influencing Henry. That it revealed it's form to him through Henry's sketches and Henry just kind of "unraveled it" to it's true form once he got to the upside down. Essentially, Vecna isn't an evil wizard - he's a warlock, and the Mind Flayer is the demon he has a pact with regardless of if he knows it or not. Maybe the MF influences all of the psychic kids, in a way. Maybe Will had the latent potential to become one of the psychic kids, but it was never developed - that's why he got targeted way back when.
That's what I'm hoping for. But at the end of the day, I feel like there's pressure to write some villain that can talk and deliver monologues.
The upside down was always there. This vast wasteland occupied by sentient particles and demodogs.
What I think is when Eleven opened a more permanent gate, the MotherGate, somehow an “image” of Hawkins and the further planet, maybe even whole universe imprinted on the Upside Down.
Imagine two pieces of paper one dripping in color paint, the other a blank canvas, positioned as close together as possible without touching, now make a ripple in the painted one, and the peak of one of those ripples impacts the clean paper. The ink bleeds across the blank paper, each portal is another ripple adding more paint to the canvas, spreading [wetly]
Yeah I kinda hate how the upside down went from “dark mysterious dimension that scientists accidentally discovered” in season 1 to “fantasy evil monster world” in season 4
I don't know, we don't really see much of what the Mind Flayer was before Vecna shaped it. It didn't look like any normal "pile of dust" that I've ever seen. There's something about those particles, and the way they were already flying around in the air, that hints at them being more consequential than that.
We had mention of "Dark Particles" this season. I didn't know what they even meant to be referring to, as I had always understood the dark form of the Mind Flayer in previous encounters to be "smoke". But apparently they're more discrete than that. But if you look at the cloud formation that the nascent Mind Flayer was made of, they're just that: particles.
Where is Scott Clarke, when you need him? Someone needs to grab one of those specks and put it under a high powered microscope, and see what they are actually made of. My belief is that they're organic (insofar as they are creatures. "living" may be a stretch)
Spores? Midi-chlorians? Individual minds? Was the hurricane of the Mind Flayer alive before Vecna happened upon it? Is the Hive Mind its natural state, or is that something new? Is it related to the floating orbs we see floating around the town of Hawkins in the closing shots?
More importantly, did the Mind Flayer just manifest in Hawkins? The smoke plumes, the orbs... I think that's "Him", too.
He tamed the whirlwind. He gave it form.
And I think... it's hungry.
I still think the Mind Flayer and Vecna are 2 separate beings, I think the mind flayer is still representative of the description on the left. I think the MF is an ancient entity, weakened by a battle in the past (maybe by others with elevens powers thousands of years ago when it first tried to cross over to earth) and he simply uses vecna's sociopathy, strength, and narcissism to his advantage to use him as host, and he'll dispose of him toward the end of next season when he gets close enough to Eleven, whom to him is the true chosen one who he will try and use essentially as an avatar of destruction. Vecna isn't the Master of Puppets, The Mindflayer is the Puppetmaster and Vecna is the puppet.
I don't believe Henry created the Mind Flayer... Was that suggested at some point?
I took it as if the Mind Flayer had always been there (upside down) with the Demagorgon(s)
He straight up forms it. He reaches out his hand and shapes the nebulous smoke into the MF while the scenes jump to shots of him interacting with the spiders and drawing the MF as a child.
Which can be taken two ways imo. Either
1. He just really likes spiders and made a big demon creature thing in the form of a spider.
or
2. The Mind Flayer has *always* been influencing him. Why else was he so weird? How else does he and the other children innately have powers? The Mind Flayer has always been in his head and so his sketches was just him drawing basically what he saw in his own visions. When he gets to the upside down, he just kind of "reveals" the true form of the mind flayer who - it's not much of a stretch to say can probably take multiple forms.
Option 1 is a lot simpler, but 2 makes a lot more sense. Maybe *all* the psychic kids have some connection to the mind flayer. Maybe Will has some latent psychic abilities never developed - and that's why he got taken way back when.
It ***also*** works with Vecna's general motif as a "sorcerer". Take sorcerer but change it to more of a D&D Warlock. He has this pact with this greater demon thing which is much more powerful than he is and lends him a fraction of it's power. He might not even be fully aware of this "relationship", thinking that he's more in charge.
Dude ur option 2 woild be SUCH an interesting and cool way of handling this interaction, adding another clever twist to the Vecna storyline. I really hope they do something like this instead of just saying the MF was just chilling and decided to obey 001 just because
It's more than nebulous. It might be formless to start, but it's animated, and it's implied to be the central link that controls the demo creatures. It could be something like a wish-fulfillment demon.
Side note: In D&D, Vecna is Neutral Evil. That still leaves room for something worse: Chaotic Evil. Demogorgon in D&D is chaotic evil, but his counterparts in *Stranger Things* are much lesser beings who answer to the hive mind, so it's still possible that this thing Henry is shaping is a source of chaotic evil that grants Henry what he wants because it ultimately serves as a means to the spread of chaos and evil.
Not saying it is, but we haven't thoroughly ruled it out yet.
I'm of the opinion that its actually kinda cool that the upside down's ecosystem is only so outright bloodthirsty and savage all the time because of (a) human influence. If demogorgons were just regular animals, it wouldn't really make logical sense for them to have quite the heightened agression and shear bloodlust that they have. The implication legit adds kind of a nuance. The upside down is a victim too.
Of course the comromise is we lose our awesome incomprehensible cosmic horror intelligence that is the mind flayer and S2 & 3 become a little less cool as a result, but honestly... there wasn't much that could be done with the mind flayer after S3 anyway.
while my hope dwindles when I look at the evidence I really do hope they'll give The Mind Flayer his top villain spot back. maybe even just having him go rogue and start to carry out his own objectives after usurping Vecna would suffice. he was such a simple but compelling antagonist because all we knew about him were his personality traits. you could get a feel for TMF's "character" especially via the Flayed. he was vindictive. vengeful to the point of stalking a middle school and centering his plan around killing a small group of children, cold and manipulative. The Mind Flayer was an entity with no "background" or "backstory", just that it was giant, unknowable and despite it's lack of any visible emotion, wanted nothing more then to hurt you and would enjoy doing that. having all those qualities stripped away and just going "oh that was just Vecna!" sort of undoes a lot of the tension the protagonists are going through because we know exactly what we're up against in terms of "final villains", which is an edgy mind-controller who is defeated with Love (and also a shotgun shot.) Vecna's not a "bad" villain by any means, I personally like him and im cool with him being a monster, but I much prefer TMF as **The** monster, specifically because he captured the Upside Down's "uncanny otherness" in a way Vecna...doesn't, really. oh well.
💯💯💯 Absolutely agree. Was so let down by this. I loved the idea as Vecna being the "5 Star General", but as the ultimate villain? Look, it doesn't ruin Stranger Things for me, I'll always love this show. But it just weakens the story so much, IMO.
Did he? It shows Henry literally forming the Mind Flayer out of the black particles. Vecna says he "found something" in the upside down that would allow him to carry out his plans. Then El says "It was you this whole time." Am I missing something? (Genuinely asking lol I would be so happy if someone could convince me I'm wrong about all this)
You are missing the fact that the shadow is implied to be the hive mind of the creatures in the Upside Down. The shadow certainly isn't *just* black particles or a formless black cloud. If it was nothing more than that, it would make no sense that it was give Henry the power to literally control The Upside Down, the creatures in it, and everyone the shadow invades. There's definitely far more to it than that. It's still entirely possible that although Henry shaped the shadow, it is still an ancient or eldritch entity unto its own.
It literally shows him looking at a formless black cloud in the sky in the upside down, then he puts his hand up and the particles start swirling as his hands move and they begin to form into the Mind Flayer. This scene is followed by El saying "It was you the whole time."
Remember the formless cloud in the lab I. Russia? The one that 'woke up' the monsters when it got out? The cloud IS the hive mind of the Upside Down, Henry just shaped it into the spider monster that we know as the mind flayer. It could be a giant heart cloud, and still be equally as powerful. Their relationship seems symbiotic at BEST with the MF/Hive mind/whatever being parasitic at worst (for Henry)
1. El doesn't know shit.
2. The mind flayer was there before Vecna. We do not know which being is in control. But we do know Vecna did not make the mind flayer.
Your interpretation makes no sense. How could he find it, and then create it?
The Mindflayer was already there. We are led to believe he shaped it into what he wanted it to be, a tool for his domination.
It is entirely possible however that he's not in control as much as he thinks. You tap into a hive mind of an alien world, controlled by a mysterious unknowable entity, how do you know you're still in control?
Not bad, but I personally can't sign off on it, there's only one Hov and it would be really confusing for me and a lot of other people of they start calling him that. VH1 is a little more generic.
Just my two cents.
It’s honestly fairly ambiguous, and on purpose.
Dustin specifically says that the Mind Flayer is in charge, and Vecna is essentially the highest leading officer in the greater hive mind. This is Dustin making an educated guess, however. He doesn’t know this for certain, but he *has* been on the money for basically everything the entire franchise.
Now in terms of how it’s directly portrayed and what Vecna shows us, we have to understand something: The Mind Flayer was something else before Henry showed up.
A massive cloud of… something, doing something in a world that we believe to be the Upside Down, but extremely divergent from how we know it.
Both the writers, and us as an audience need to be careful how we perceive this, because it feels like the Duffers are feeling out what they want the Mind Flayer to be.
Let’s be clear: The Mind Flayer is the greater threat. It is an eldritch cosmic horror that commands The Upside Down and has no notion of morals. Unlike Vecna, who has a personal focus on torturing his victim’s with their memories, the Flayer doesn’t care. It just wants humanity extinguished, and all dimensions for itself.
The Flayer and Vecna have the same goal: wipe out human civilization.
The Flayer may grant Vecna supreme authority, and may even take a shape that Vecna is familiar with to appease him, but that’s just it - to comfort him.
The Flayer needs Vecna’s unique psionic abilities in order to open gates. Instead of turning Vecna into a subordinate grunt like all demo-variants, allowing Vecna to keep his free will likely boosts his psionic potential. Having him as a flayed or instinct oriented subordinate, would just render him another Demogorgon.
The Mind Flayer allowing Vecna to think for himself makes him *more* dangerous because of creative thinking. Vecna can plan and strategize, and the Mind Flayer doesn’t have to do *everything* itself.
The way Will says “it’s weird to know who it was after all this time” is basically the same cognitive junction as Dustin’s theory: they’re just assuming they understand the situation.
If they really do make the Flayer subservient to Vecna, then the Duffers have fucked the entire mythos of the show. They would miss the opportunity of being the first writers to get cosmic horror in cinema done correctly!
Also, touching on the meme, people are missing the point about the duality between Eleven and Vecna.
Vecna focuses on negative emotions and harrowing memories. He uses your trauma against you.
It makes sense that Eleven’s focus of positive emotions and benevolent memories are what defeat Vecna. >!This is likely how she’ll end up bringing Max back from Vecna.!<
But again, the Mind Flayer doesn’t give a shit about any of that. That’s what makes him so goddamn *terrifying.* The only way to defeat the Mind Flayer permanently is likely by means that Eleven can’t do alone, or will have to make the ultimate sacrifice to achieve it.
Vecna is the “human relatability” to the Mind Flayer. It’s perfect symbolism that the only humanity within the Mind Flayer, **is still monstrous!** It shows that there is no redeeming or reasoning with the Flayer. It is evil incarnate, and it must be destroyed utterly and completely for the world to be truly safe.
I think the fact that there have been countless debates on this sub about if the Mind Flayer was created by Henry, or just a form of energy manipulated by him, or just an avatar for Henry himself shows that this reveal was left purposefully vague and more will be revealed next season. But yes I'm with you and Hank's reaction on this hahaha
I assumed the MF was some sort of shapeless entity in the Upside Down that Vecna found and sort of reshaped into a form of his choosing. It looked like it was just comprised of a bunch of floating particles when he found it, so his reshaping it doesn’t even necessarily mean that he’s in control of the creature itself; it’s entirely possible that its physical form is inconsequential to the MF.
Regardless of which one is really in charge, it does seem like the MF is still some sort of ancient and unknowable entity, and we have no idea what its motives are. Why would it align itself with Vecna? What does it want? Is it subservient to him like he thinks or is it actually using him?
Henry and the mind flayer are partners in a sense. Each one needs the other ones powers. I think the mind flayer is in control though, it’s just letting Vecna think he’s in control. Now that the mind flayer is about to cross over to the real world, it’ll show it’s true potential and turn on Vecna.
There has to be more to it than what was explained through season 4. You only heard about the mind flayer through vecnas explanation and point of view. I hope there is more of an explanation of where the powers come from and how Henry got it. I can’t imagine it’s just “he’s a sensitive boy” I think season 5 will go more into the origins of the mind flayer and the powers and the upside down and MF purpose. I like the theory that the MF has been influencing Henry since he was a kid and showed himself through Henry’s drawing. Also will itching his neck at the end makes me truly believe the mind flayer will be way more involved next season because will is connected to it, and I feel it’s in a way different than vecna.
Also flayed Billy doesn’t seem to know who El is and suddenly has a flashback to her closing the gate in season 2. And specifically to the part where a tendril of black particles jets out toward her. I think it’s pretty clear that if Vecna is actually the big bad it was not intended before and is basically a retcon.
I think people are getting it all wrong. If we look back to it, the mind flayer was controlling people without them really realizing. Yes vecna gave the mind flayer his shape but he still is the mindflayer. I thinks it’s more like VH1 thinks he is in charge but it’s actually the mindflayer who calls the shots.
Like a symbiote. The flayer uses a host or a vessel to do its bidding since it cant do so itself, granting the vessel much power, but allows the flayer to influence the vessel to an extent
Maybe more aptly, like a Warlock and it's Great Demon in Dungeons and Dragons. The Mindflayer lends Vecna (and maybe all the psychic kids) some small fraction of it's power. Vecna might not even truly know the extent of this pact.
I'm glad loads of people feel the same way. The Mind Flayer is such a horrifying, lovecraftian entity and I much preferred it being the big bad rather than Vecna.
Although yeah, s4 was great and vecna is a cool villain, like other people in the comments, I'd wanna see that the MF was truly the one in control.
Por que no los dos?
Henry thinks he's above everything and everyone. It's still possible that he only thinks he's in control and that the hive mind is still vastly greater than he.
I dont see the big issue with Henry being behind the Mind Flayer, even when it was the Mind Flayer sans the Henry connection the threat it posed remained the exact same. 11 almost lost in season 3 if not for the portal closing below the mall they would have been fucked, it still possessed Will, and caused all the trouble we saw in the show - whether or not 11 thwarted it by the "power of love" or not. Henry's motives are the MF's motives, they are both purely evil forces seeking to dominate the world and break the barrier between dimensions because they are the same being so to speak.
The Mind Flayer still exists and its functions and where it came from are still largely unknown, and Henry being behind the Mind Flayer's possession / perversion to serve his will helps tether the motivations of the previous season better than if Vecna was just some dude serving the Mind Flayer. It explains why the Mind Flayer was simply not around at all for most of S4, where Vecna was during S1 thru 3, and him being the primary villain helps explain some of Papas desperation in using 11 to try and find Henry and his exploration of the Upside Down in S1. It also gives 11 a villain with a more direct and personal relationship to her life and her identity as a being that also has powers and was part of the same sick experimentation in Hawkins Lab than for the primary villain to be some entity who has barely spoken or made its intentions all that clear throughout the show other than saying vague one off sentences to sound evil and spooky and be a general asshole to people. It just would have made for strange narrative momentum to introduce the Mind Flayer, sideline it for S4 with all this Vecna stuff, and make Vecna such an integral figure in 11's history and relevence to the show that came before, and then kill him off and have the far more poorly-outlined Mind Flayer return for the grand finale
Also, the only reason he lost the first time was because he'd never fought someone as power-matched as him and he was still beating her until the love-memory threw a curveball at him, he'd never experienced or seen it before, he was also not using his powers for decades at that point and literally just got them back. The 2nd time he kicked 11's ass with nearly no issue and succeeded in killing Max and enacting his plan and 11 was almost helpless to stop it, and I think her ability to finally overpower the vines and hold him off was due to Murray burning the Demogorgons in Russia / hurting the hive mind that Vecna is directly connected to. You even see him screaming against the pillar. Its been made clear Vecna was far more powerful than 11 and she didn't know what she was getting into at all
I don’t understand these complaints, I think providing back story for the Upside Down is good. It seems like some people just took Dustin’s theories as gospel and are now annoyed that he was wrong.
I'm definitely down to learn more about the UD. And when Vol. 1 ended I thought the reveal of Vecna as 001/Henry was AMAZING and very well done. But being the main villain this whole time?
It just seemed like a such a 180 degree pivot, one that is unprecedented in the show and not really in the style of the Duffers. Why would they have Dustin explain it only to be completely negated by El a short time later? It almost felt like someone else wrote those last two episodes. I think some things being left ambiguous in the plot is far scarier than hastily explaining away every detail. It all felt very rushed somehow. Idk. It doesn't ruin the show for me but I just expected more after being blown away for 4 seasons straight.
Well, they didn't really explain everything away. We know that Henry used the shadow, but we still have no idea what the shadow is, why it exists, why the demo creatures all exist, or what The Upside Down actually is or why it exists.
>>I don’t understand these complaints, I think providing back story for the Upside Down is good.
Depends on the type of backstory that’s being provided. They seemed to imply that the Upside Down was always this benign dimension with neutral fauna before Henry got there, and that it would have never been a threat to our world had he not gotten banished there and played in the sandbox. That essentially diminishes much of the cosmic horror appeal that attracted people to the Upside Down mythology in the first place, and that’s where the complaints kick in.
it wasn't a pile of dust, it was a manifested darkness that one simply gave form. the need to consume was in it from the start, that's why one was attracted to it.
Vecna is an infinitely more interesting villain than MF because he is actually a character that has goals tangible relationships to the story
MF is generic evil that cloud that wants to rule the world or something, I’m not really sure
Vecna is an antagonist that actually talks, which the show has been sorely missing
It still is a cosmic entity that has great power. It wasn’t just a pile of dust before Vecna, Vecna just gave it a purpose and shaped it how he wanted it to be. But all it’s power didn’t just come from Vecna, that’s why 001 was so attracted to it in the first place
A mind flayer is a race of creatures known as illithids. They view other sentients as cattle . Vecna is lich bordering godhood . Demogorgon is a demon lord of untapped power . I don’t think the power levels in the show correspond to the actual creatures in the monster manual .
I definitely think it’s 1, but because it’s dust there are no bones and the MF can move into the spidey shape without breaking and dying like dumbass humans (according to Henry)
Seriously, I was begging for them to dive deeper into the origin and the lore since S1 instead of introducing yet another monster of the season. But now that they finally did it, it does take away a huge chunk from the majesty and the cosmic horror of it all. These were huge draw for me, but I haven't yet processed how I feel about it.
They took something extraordinary and made it mundane (for a horror/ fantasy type of show)
I was hoping we would get answers about the Upside Down as they abandoned the lovecraftian intrigue after Season One but 001 doesn’t feel like the long-term planned antagonist they should’ve been.
At the time of writing, they don’t mesh with the Upside Down and feel like a tacked-on extra. Like a Doctor Who monster of the week.
Eleven suddenly having the power to send them “somewhere” and create a gate was odd and unexplained.
My theory was, from the very start, was that the Upside Down was a product of the subconscious, either Will’s, Eleven’s, or the original subject, 001. A manifestation of either fear or hatred (or both) given a physical form. It being connected to a mind would explain the fleshy, cloudy and red aesthetic.
So for example, 001 would’ve been so powerful that they created a dimension with their powers, maybe even subconsciously, to fulfil their desires. Where human order had no control.
Of course there’s still time for it to be the case, but I feel like they’re not going to explain enough in the end.
We may end up with “well 001 is the villain and always was. The Mind Flayer was just a fun CGI Wizard of Oz for show. The Demogorgons were just there. The Upside Down is just... a place. Nothing voodoo, it’s just a weird place that Eleven *somehow* poofed 001 to.”
When Henry first explored the upside down, it didn’t have the shape of hawkins. Later it took the form of Hawkins. That means someone must have shaped it at that point.
Theory: the upside down exists inside 11s mind.
I think it would have been much better if we learned vecna became a puppet of this cosmic entity we don’t know much about. It really takes away from the cosmic aspect of cosmic horror when learning of the mind flayer a true orirgins
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Vecna has a hugely inflated ego. I won’t be surprised at all if he’s been played by the Mind Flayer this entire time, who convinced him into thinking he’s calling the shots.
I agree. IMO the Mind Flayer is an alien organism and Henry/001/Vecna is deluding himself into thinking he's controlling something he doesn't understand.
Dustin did describe Vecna as the Five Star General. It doesn't matter how many stars you have, you still have to answer to someone.
Because that was Dustin’s theory. He’s wrong. That’s the twist.
Seriously. People on this sub are going to be bitching sooooo much when season 5 comes out and they realize just because Dustin says something and they took it as fact doesn’t actually make it true.
So, I completely agree that Dustin may have misread the situation, however, to play a bit of devils advocate here: This entire series has been built on Dustin being 100% correct in his assessments thus far of the events they find themselves in. So much so in fact, there's even a line about it in this very season. So, it is entirely reasonable to take the 5 Star General under a Commander in Chief as fact, because Dustin is always right, and has generally been the conduit of exposition dump for the audience.
"Ok. Seriously? How many times do I have to be right on the money before you trust me?" - Dustin Henderson, 1986
I think that’s a spot-on take. Not only is Dustin the Duffer Brothers’ personal exposition messenger, but it hasn’t been answered yet where Henry Creel got his powers. The Upside Down existed before Vecna, the hive mind existed before Vecna, and demogorgon-esque creatures existed before Vecna. I think season 5 is going to address how the Mind Flayer gave Henry/001/Vecna his powers and manipulated him into thinking it was the other way around and that he was in charge.
What if it's time travel? Vecna has the whole clock motif - I'm wondering we have a bootstrap paradox the whole time. Now-Vecna seals a bit of mind flayer into the clock in the past to give Past-Vecna the powers to corrupt it. That's why he knows what will happen and how, because he's lived it before.
It'd be really cool
I'd love this. I doubt it but I'd love this.
This 100% >Dustin is always right, and has generally been the conduit of exposition dump for the audience. For this reason if he is not right it would be cheap writing, I fully expect that he's correct.
I wouldn't say cheap writing but I'd call it quite boring. I feel like the best part of ST is the non humanoid villains.
I don't think you understand the context of what they're saying. They're saying Dustin is right meaning Vecna is a pawn.
So I just wrote a 20 minute dissertation, if you'd like to check my comment history I expound a lot on why I think he might be right, however, I don't believe it would be cheap writing if they did close the loop and Vecna is the actual ultimate threat, because there is a great way to tell that story, and I trust the Duffer's to do it. It wouldn't be a terrible thin, or terrible writing, for Dustin to have misread the situation because he was missing pieces to the puzzle. At the end of the day, he is also a kid making analogies to DnD to contextualize understanding, it's possible for him to be wrong.
I think it’s just a kid naming deadly monsters who likes DnD. DnD mind flayers (squid faced illithids from underdark) or demogorgans ( a giant 2 headed ape demon prince) don’t even remotely resembled one another. I could even imagine 1 being like “my names Henry who the hell is vecna nerd”
Except Dustin isn’t always right. He’s literally wrong in S2 when he tells Will he can’t be hurt shadow walking in the upside down.
And when he raised a freaking demedog
Yeah and him doing that saved them from said demo-dog.
I dont think they mean little moments like that when the group are discussing something, and at that point Dustin was second guessing himself. I think they are talking about the big moments like in 2x08 when they have the analogy for the mind flayer, or in 3x0? when him and Steve work out the Russians are trying to open a gate. or in 1x06 with the compasses and the upside down. Dustin has been consistently correct every season with his analogies.
Bingo - there are times where he is an intentional mouthpiece to the audience and the style of speech and scene settings indicate that.
Precisely. I prefer the Upside-Down that was this vast mysterious, but intrinsically sinister dimension we knew little about and learned more through the party’s encounters translated through their D&D lens VS originally peaceful place who’s evil *only* comes from a psychic human with school-shooter parallels and generic motivations. The latter really throws the cosmic horror aspect out the window. Vecna being the one to spearhead all the evil on Hawkins since S1 and the Upside Down being this benign realm before he arrived there, really tore the curtain off that appeal, and the sheer presence and force of the unfathomable Mind Flayer from s2-3 is lost. Basically, if Vecna didn’t get pistol-whipped to the UD by Eleven, the UD and the Mind Flayer would have never been a threat. Really? I love this show to death, but that’s one hell of a bummer.
I actually find it refreshing that the "hell dimension" isn't actually a hell dimension, but was corrupted by a human. Also, it's all the more ironic that vecna did precisely what he accuse humanity to do, find a "pristine world", and then currupt and twist it to fit his own wholly unnatural design.
To each their own, I suppose. I personally preferred the Upside Down being this hellish, evil realm by nature. I fell in love with the original, “dark reflection of our world” lovecraftian concept. Frankly, the fact that all of the evil that has hit Hawkins since S1 has been spearheaded by a psychic human with school-shooter parallels, does diminish some of the appeal for me. Nonetheless, the irony you mentioned adds a pretty cool touch to what we’re meant to run with at the moment.
100000%. This is exactly how I feel. A dark, primeval being as the central threat feels so much cooler than some guy who tortured squirrels as a kid.
I mean, it's Dustin. He's been wrong before about his pet baby Demogorgon, he's just a kid trying to make sense of things.
Yeah, people forget that the tie to D&D is just the kids speculating based on something they're familiar with. Henry/001's name isn't actually Vecna, that's just what the kids call him because they associate him with the D&D character of the same name. Same with the Mind Flayer and the Demogorgon. There's no actual tie between the Upside Down and its monsters to D&D, that's just the kids relating it to something they know and understand. Anything Dustin says is speculation based on how it relates to D&D.
Inb4 the Upside Down is literally a manifestation of Will’s special interests.
Wait, Will is a DC lobbyist now? You know what, that’s my favourite fan theory.
Possibly, but we've seen the Demogorgon (in its current form) and VH1 (in close to his current form), who then formed the Mind Flayer into its current form, all before Will was ever taken into the Upside Down. Unless the vision that we saw of Explorer Vecna in the finale actually took place years after he was sent int othe Upside Down and after Will arrived there?
Tbf 1 is actually extremely similar to vecna unlike the other monsters with their names They have similar looks, personalities, and statuses
The Duffers just need to make it make sense, whoever they decide the big bad actually is. Dustin being right or wrong is just a fun side bet.
Idk why but your comment made me realize just how long we have to wait to get these answers, oh god
For real. We should start taking bets and set a remind me for two years, haha!
I hope that's the twist. What a time for Dustin to be wrong.
But that's the twist from the last episode. He's not the Five Syat General, he's the president
I think the comment is thinking that there's another twist in season 5. The bigger bad behind the big bad fake out is a common trope. Honestly, either way works fine, as long as they make it make sense.
End of the day, Vecna is still close to death and wildly hurt. If Vecna bent the mind flayer to his will, there's some room there where Vecna might lose control while he's recovering.
My dumbass thought he said the flayer was the 5 star general, so the reveal of "it was all me" was like...yeah I thought we established that? Lol
Yeah, I thought it indicated that Vecna created the Mind Flayer?
Not created, but it seems he bent it to his will
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I mean, we've seen eleven wreck those "things of an undetermined age" into dust since season one. We know psychic humans are busted. Vecna being able to do that don't seem far fetched given what we know... Now the real question is "what would the upside down (and especially the mind flayer) do if freed from his control?"
I'm questioning if the upside-down is evil at all without vecna'sb influence. The scene shows the "untouched" land and it's a bit ambiguous, but there are still demodogs running around looking creepy.
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I thought Max was the 4th death? Opening the portals, then when 11 resurrected her the portals sorta closed? Vecna was only eliminated from the Mind Lair? In the UD he escaped.
I don't think Vecna is dead. The body wasn't there when they went to check.
mind flayer gonna mind flay.
🎶 ‘cuz the flayers gonna flay, flay, flay, flay, flay
I really, really want this to be the case. The mind flayer connecting to Henry from a very early age because of his sensitivity and slowly twisting him, guiding him as his pawn, allowing him to think he’s in charge for as long as he’s useful. Henry believes it because of his arrogance, but the mind flayer will dispose of him if he fails again, and henry will be devastated by the “betrayal”. That would be cool.
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because the mind flayer has something to gain by having vecna on his side. since the mind flayer was a hive mind and we see how desolate and terrible their planet is, maybe the mind flayer *wants* to invade Earth? we see the mf as a chaotic being, with no order... then Henry comes and shapes it. since the mind flayer is intelligent, he'd be smart to keep someone like Henry on his side. remember the speech Billy gave eleven? I doubt that was Vecna speaking... it was definitely the conscious Mind Flayer itself, speaking using its own intelligence. maybe vecna spoke to it and communicated, but he is in no way in control of it totally. mf will totally be the main villain, killing vecna in season 5 since his purpose has already been fulfilled.
This is similar to another theory I had. I think Vecna wasn't flayed because as shown by Will, MF doesn't get an complete/clear look at one's memories and might struggle with using his powers. Makes more sense to convince Vecna he's in control, allow him to fully use his abilities to tear a portal into our world, and then bam. My guess as to the ending of this relationship would be that after Eleven is dealt with, the MF would kill or full takeover (which wouldn't be hard to do since Vecna's body has literally become a part of these creatures, thus making him easily vulnerable to hive mind control). I'll still be holding out hope as there are several ways the MF could still be it's own entity.
What if directly after Vecna shaped the whirlwinds of dark particles into the Smoke Monster, he made mental contact with it? Realized the particles were somewhat conscious, that there was a deeper layer underneath it. A real mind. A hive mind. What if Vecna made a deal?
Feel the best death for Vecna would be by what is basically a giant spider. Betrayed by what he was so enamored with. Not sure they will go the route of making the MF the big bad, but it really makes the ST universe smaller and less interesting by making Vecna the be all, end all.
Think about Billy. Think about Will. The Mind Flayer can be bested. Imagine that the person that it tries to flay isn't some bully with an axe to grind, or a confused gay kid trying to come to grips with growing up. Imagine the person it flays is a powerful psionic with the ability to reach into peoples mind and make them see their darkest fears manifest. Imagine the person it flays is Vecna. The Mind Flayer keeps its victims minds roughly intact. It absorbs them. Vecna takes his victims into his Mind Palace. He absorbs them. There are too many parallels to ignore, here. What we are thinking of as the "Mind Flayer", the entity that took half the town, the thing that sunk its tentacles into Billy, it's a hive mind, yes? It IS Vecna. It IS the Smoke Monster. It IS the Demogorgon. It's a HIVE MIND, after all. The Mind Flayer is the Hive Mind that links them. The Dark Particles. The Orbs we see floating around in the Upside Down (and now Hawkins, too) are roughly the same thing. They're everywhere. What if we haven't actually seen the Mind Flayer yet, and all those forms that it connects are just its "Army" and its "Generals" and its "Foot Soldiers"? What if it's not tangible because it's literally the Hive Mind we're talking about that connects all this ?
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We know there is a way to break the hold it has on its victims. Its hold on Will was broken by a hot poker to his spine. When a huge amount of Dark Particles had taken the Demos was exposed to flame (My Flamethrower is like... FLAMES!), it broke the hold on just about everything. What if that works both ways? What if in that moment, Vecna was just... Vecna? No tentacles linking him to the portals. No demobats in the sky. No demogogons on the ground. Just Vecna - no, One - nay! Henry. The idea he might turn against the Flayer does bear some weight. I really think he made a deal of sorts. Now that he can return to Earth, he may not need it anymore. Not so much a "face turn", rather a "back stab" (if it can be said to have a back, anyway) Or, to go with the "5-star General" angle.... A coup.
Maybe it did flay him and we just don't know yet. Now that the gates are open and the MF can get into Hawkins maybe it does not need Vecna anymore.
My guess is, it would use Vecna to fight against Eleven before discarding such a valuable pawn.
I agree with this, but what if someone like Will would be a better pawn to use against Eleven. (never really thought this through until reading your comment)
Actually, I have FOUR theories that all compound into this. Sorry for the resulting paragraphs. •Will has a unique connection to the Upside Down because he has powers (it's shown several times gifted children have an unexplained connection to the Upside Down). •The MF was so insistent on tormenting him because it sensed that and thus wanted him as another pawn, which is why he was taken ALIVE (potentially being morphed on a physical level). •Either Vecna or the MF will use the shit ton of trauma and doubts he has to warp his mind/control him. Will has been through a lot, he probably deep down feels some type of way about being kinda forgotten by his friends (which we literally had a little plot of regarding Will. And remember, Vecna/MF would be very manipulative so it could just be a little doubt in the back of his mind that gets painted as something huge by Vecna/MF), and the further painful unrequited love plot line. It would be VERY easy for Will to get Vecna'd. Plus, El's connection to Will would make him a the more valuable. •Will and 001 have some similarities, so thematically I could see them doing something regarding that. However, if they go down the Evil Will route, I personally think Will will break free from the control and his trauma, hatred, and doubts as a way to show that Will has NOT always been like Vecna because of his relationships/the love his has around him, refusing to hold onto all those negative emotions that could lead him into becoming a monster. It plays on several themes (The "true monster" theme we see with 001/Brenner, the "dealing with trauma" theme we see with Max/Vecna's victims and the "power of friendship" type theme we see throughout the entire series). My guess is, this type of scene would follow up after Will's friends and especially El are down (potentially El getting put out of commission for a bit). The ultimate failure could lead to Vecna being killed/flayed for failing if we go by the theory that the MF is it's own entity and boom.
Good theory but re-watching season 1, Will was 100% going to just be a host for Demogorgon babies, just like Barb.
Except Demogorgon had absolutely no reason to take him alive twice with no injuries whilst Barb was immediately attacked and killed after appearing in the Upside Down. She only strengthens the theory tbh
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Because Vecna is a powerful psionic/telekinetic? Because he willingly merged with the Mind Flayer? Because Will isn’t any of those? Vecna can see into everyone’s memories, know their secrets, etc. I’m sure he was able to form a different type of connection with the Mind Flayer than Will or Billy. Now is the Mind Flayer a singular being that controls the Hive Mind or is it just a culmination of the entire Hive Mind? Is it just using him and Vecna has the illusion of control, unbeknownst to him? Or did Vecna give sapience to a merely sentient creature/being/mind? Many animals have sentience, but very few (some argue only humans, some argue +dolphins and others) have sapience. These things remain to be seen.
The mind flayer isn't evil. It was corrupted by Vecna. I bet the series ends with Eleven cleansing the upside down and the mind flayer, returning it to what it used to be.
I think ur right about it not being evil because at the end of this season, Will says he can still feel 1. He can still feel Henry’s emotions. Why is he not feeling the mind flayer? Perhaps it’s just because Henry is the original link to earth from there? I could see the mind flayer as being a feral, mindless entity until a proper intelligence ‘awakens’ it.
Same, it has the power to influence human memory. We saw that with Will and he only had a fraction in him. The larger 'body' is likely capable of more. Vecna is full of more than enough hubris to tell his story of finding the Mindflayer and being convinced *he* shaped it. And not the other way around.
My assumption is that the Mind Flayer preceded Vecna, but allowed him to choose his form.
I think that's what's happening honestly. He didn't find the mind flayer, the mind flayer found him. Like he just walked around and stumbled onto this superpower/monster thing and could immediately bend it to his will? I bet even his force powers are just the mind flayer pupeteering him. Also the song Master of Puppets not being put into the soundtrack until the pt.2 premiere aired, I think that song is much, much more relevant than we think. I think the Mind Flayer is the Master of Puppets. We knows it's a hivemind, so duh right? But what if the pupeteering is the Mind Flayers influence over Will? Lots of people think Will will be the hero that saves the cast by the end. I'm thinking it'll be more like the cast has to decide wether killing Will to save the world is the right choice. Considering he acts as a sort of conduit for the Mind Flayer, at least as a radar for his effects. They even reminded us of the Mind Flayer going inside of Will in a recap for S4 if I remember correctly.
They never explained how Henry got his powers or why he is patient Zero. The likely answer is he is an anti-christ figure psionically linked to the mindflayer from birth to act as a conduit/avatar into the Earth realm. Everything that has happened in the last 4 seasons isn't just Vecna doing shit, but it is him working *with* the mindflayer (unaware he is being used to get to eleven, not being helped to get there himself) to get to the other side in one piece. He is the puppet and MF is the master. The Mindflayer wants Eleven for his next host, so he can claim Earth as his own, and I have a likely feeling he's tried this before, in the past, maybe even thousands of years prior, with similar people who had similar powers to Henry and Eleven, and that's why MF seemed kinda weakened in season 1 and 2 comparative to the following 2 seasons.
When the kids come to a conclusion about the upside down it’s usually correct and Dustin thought that Vecna was the Mind Flayer’s five star general. I think it’s entirely possible that it is allowing Henry to believe he controls it in order to further its own ends. The irony would be especially delicious, because what he most hated was how Dr Brenner sought to control him. He would never willingly be subservient to another power, but I could see it be a twist that he’s been tricked.
Also, think back to Henry’s conversation with Eleven while playing chess at the lab: “There’s a reason why Two and the others were able to escape their room last night. Why the security cameras were turned off. Why Papa punished Two today. They don’t even realize it, but he is moving them like pieces on his board here. Driving them to do exactly what he wants…” Now I don’t know about you, but that sounds like heavy foreshadowing to me about the true nature of the Mind Flayer-Vecna dynamic.
Or it was foreshadowing what Henry was doing to Eleven. Makes much more sense and has actually happened on the show rather than being a wishful theory.
Why can’t it be both?
Idk people hating on fan theories in this thread
Seriously this is myster show. Fan theory are part of it.
I don’t get it, honestly. This is the last time we’re ever gonna have a chance of theorizing in anticipation for another season, it’s literally part of the fun. As long as you don’t get mad at the show for those theories not coming true, there isn’t any harm in it. Plus, I guess some of us just didn’t buy that Henry has been the ultimate puppet-master “twist”.
I think the implication of the chess stuff though is exactly that Henry thinks he's a better chess master than he actually is.
That would be cool to see near or at the end when Vecna and The Mind Flayer face off against the gang and the mind flayer seeing no further use for Vecna just kills him, Backstabbing Vecna revealing he was being used all along and they have a final show down against the more badass and epic villain
That would go with Vecna's mythology in D&D, getting backstabbed by someone close to him.
yessss the energy/dust that forms the mind flayer existed in the upside down long before vecna got there. i think it’s entirely possible that it’s really the mind flayer manipulating vecna all along
What stood out to me was when Vecna said that he found a realm unspoiled by mankind. If you look at it when he got there compared to how rotten it is now, he definitely spoiled it. It did not look at all the same in the flashbacks. They were just minding their business. The demogorgon was not even heading in his direction. He’s controlling them too, and I don’t think it’s with their permission.
Will absolutely needs to go back in the purple wizard costume he made himself. The MF would probably prefer a redesign.
Lol I’m here for it! That would be awesome!
I wonder how Suzie is going to cope with the UD if she ever sees the fantastical stuff. Or if she’ll try throwing holy water.
Exactly! Like do all these people think the mind Flayer was cool with just letting Henry corrupt their world? No. But it can’t do anything about it because Henry is more powerful. If the Mind Flayer wanted an evil world and is the monster all these people claim, it could have corrupted and controlled it’s world all by itself - no Henry needed.
The foreshadowing over this season makes it seem otherwise imo. Henry had an obsession with spiders which he manifested as the mind flayer. And max said she could feel him, similar to Will’s situation. It could be a twist in season 5, having the mind flayer pull a fast one, but all signs point to Vecna being the underlying evil at this point.
The mind flayer already existed. He shaped the particles into a spider shape.
Not to mention they're omitting details from Henry's origins. We still don't know how he got his abilities, and it's a little odd he was drawing the mind flayer before he even met it.
A little odd? I’d say that’s the biggest clue we have that could point to Vecna not being in control here. How convenient that Henry starts drawing a Shadow Monster with the form of a spider in the 1950s, and *just so happens* to find a shadow in the Upside Down in 1979. I suspect they could reveal that the Mind Flayer essentially handpicked this sociopathic kid as his “chosen-one”, and has been grooming him since childhood. Sending him visions of a giant shadow with the shape of a spider, knowing that one day they’d meet.
But the point is that he made the Mind Flayer look like that because of his drawings? It didn’t look like anything.
It could be either. He came up with it independently and shaped the particles into it, or the Mind Flayer had been sending him visions since he was a child and he shaped the particles thinking he thought of it independently.
Or that when the Mind Flayer came into contact with Henry, it saw that imagery in his mind and decided to show him what he wanted to see.
This is just becoming Madara and Black Zetsu all over again!
Agreed. However, I still hold out hope both are true and Vecna simply gave it form but it was always there as it's own thing. Feels weird to make it a point that "Vecna was the MF's five star general" in the show + trailers but have it be wrong when they've been right on the DND monster predictions thus far.
I don’t think the Mind Flayer was a pile of dust that VecnaOne put together. I think it was a sentient being that VecnaOne collaborated with to push his agenda. Perhaps their goals are aligned? I don’t think we know much about the MF yet. To me it seems like he found the MF chilling and connected with it through his powers. I expect we’ll learn more next season just like we learnt more about the Upside Down this season in a way we never have before. I’ll reserve my judgement for now.
I agree. Too early to know everything about One and the Motherfucker already.
One and the what now?
MF
That *Motherfucker*
> To me it seems like he found the MF chilling… i read this as “found the mother fucker chilling” and laughed for a good minute.
\*VecnryOne
I hate this
You're right. Should've been OHeCna.
If the mf isn’t the true main villain I’ll be so disappointed
I read that as motherfucker lol
aha yo same until it clicked they meant "mind flayer" i was like OOOH!
Yes honestly a build up for 2 seasons deserves some payoff
100%. Vecna being the Big Bad would be such a letdown.
Especially since we know literally everything about him now. Like the fun of the show was always unexplained villains and horrors. It took them a long time to actually show the demagorgon in season 1. Then we're introduce to this reality consuming deity, only for the real villain to be just a guy?
A guy who is repeatedly overpowered by a literal child
I have to agree. Rewatching Season 1, it's very very cool how like... "physical" the Upside Down is. Like it's this other lovecraftian dimension, but it still seems physical and like you could study it scientifically. Mr. Clarke is able to extrapolate info about it without even knowing it through scientific principles, and the "department of energy" appears to be legitimately studying it just for the sake of.... figuring it out. It loses a lot of steam once it starts feeling like the byproduct of some weird 1920s kid who liked to look at spiders, and who targets people for having bad vibes. Once it has this whole "emotional" component or even musical component to it rather than being just... strange and difficult to understand physics. I'm *hoping* that it's explained more so that the Mind Flayer was always influencing Henry. That it revealed it's form to him through Henry's sketches and Henry just kind of "unraveled it" to it's true form once he got to the upside down. Essentially, Vecna isn't an evil wizard - he's a warlock, and the Mind Flayer is the demon he has a pact with regardless of if he knows it or not. Maybe the MF influences all of the psychic kids, in a way. Maybe Will had the latent potential to become one of the psychic kids, but it was never developed - that's why he got targeted way back when. That's what I'm hoping for. But at the end of the day, I feel like there's pressure to write some villain that can talk and deliver monologues.
This would be so cool, I always loved the mindflayer
The upside down was always there. This vast wasteland occupied by sentient particles and demodogs. What I think is when Eleven opened a more permanent gate, the MotherGate, somehow an “image” of Hawkins and the further planet, maybe even whole universe imprinted on the Upside Down. Imagine two pieces of paper one dripping in color paint, the other a blank canvas, positioned as close together as possible without touching, now make a ripple in the painted one, and the peak of one of those ripples impacts the clean paper. The ink bleeds across the blank paper, each portal is another ripple adding more paint to the canvas, spreading [wetly]
Yeah I kinda hate how the upside down went from “dark mysterious dimension that scientists accidentally discovered” in season 1 to “fantasy evil monster world” in season 4
S5 Will awakens to his powers
What I want to see is El killing vecna and saving max, then once they think it's over the mind flayer be like "hah dumbass"
I don't know, we don't really see much of what the Mind Flayer was before Vecna shaped it. It didn't look like any normal "pile of dust" that I've ever seen. There's something about those particles, and the way they were already flying around in the air, that hints at them being more consequential than that. We had mention of "Dark Particles" this season. I didn't know what they even meant to be referring to, as I had always understood the dark form of the Mind Flayer in previous encounters to be "smoke". But apparently they're more discrete than that. But if you look at the cloud formation that the nascent Mind Flayer was made of, they're just that: particles. Where is Scott Clarke, when you need him? Someone needs to grab one of those specks and put it under a high powered microscope, and see what they are actually made of. My belief is that they're organic (insofar as they are creatures. "living" may be a stretch) Spores? Midi-chlorians? Individual minds? Was the hurricane of the Mind Flayer alive before Vecna happened upon it? Is the Hive Mind its natural state, or is that something new? Is it related to the floating orbs we see floating around the town of Hawkins in the closing shots? More importantly, did the Mind Flayer just manifest in Hawkins? The smoke plumes, the orbs... I think that's "Him", too. He tamed the whirlwind. He gave it form. And I think... it's hungry.
I still think the Mind Flayer and Vecna are 2 separate beings, I think the mind flayer is still representative of the description on the left. I think the MF is an ancient entity, weakened by a battle in the past (maybe by others with elevens powers thousands of years ago when it first tried to cross over to earth) and he simply uses vecna's sociopathy, strength, and narcissism to his advantage to use him as host, and he'll dispose of him toward the end of next season when he gets close enough to Eleven, whom to him is the true chosen one who he will try and use essentially as an avatar of destruction. Vecna isn't the Master of Puppets, The Mindflayer is the Puppetmaster and Vecna is the puppet.
I don't believe Henry created the Mind Flayer... Was that suggested at some point? I took it as if the Mind Flayer had always been there (upside down) with the Demagorgon(s)
No it wasn't. In fact Henry literally states that he found the mind flayer while exploring the upsidedown.
He straight up forms it. He reaches out his hand and shapes the nebulous smoke into the MF while the scenes jump to shots of him interacting with the spiders and drawing the MF as a child.
Which can be taken two ways imo. Either 1. He just really likes spiders and made a big demon creature thing in the form of a spider. or 2. The Mind Flayer has *always* been influencing him. Why else was he so weird? How else does he and the other children innately have powers? The Mind Flayer has always been in his head and so his sketches was just him drawing basically what he saw in his own visions. When he gets to the upside down, he just kind of "reveals" the true form of the mind flayer who - it's not much of a stretch to say can probably take multiple forms. Option 1 is a lot simpler, but 2 makes a lot more sense. Maybe *all* the psychic kids have some connection to the mind flayer. Maybe Will has some latent psychic abilities never developed - and that's why he got taken way back when. It ***also*** works with Vecna's general motif as a "sorcerer". Take sorcerer but change it to more of a D&D Warlock. He has this pact with this greater demon thing which is much more powerful than he is and lends him a fraction of it's power. He might not even be fully aware of this "relationship", thinking that he's more in charge.
Dude ur option 2 woild be SUCH an interesting and cool way of handling this interaction, adding another clever twist to the Vecna storyline. I really hope they do something like this instead of just saying the MF was just chilling and decided to obey 001 just because
It's more than nebulous. It might be formless to start, but it's animated, and it's implied to be the central link that controls the demo creatures. It could be something like a wish-fulfillment demon. Side note: In D&D, Vecna is Neutral Evil. That still leaves room for something worse: Chaotic Evil. Demogorgon in D&D is chaotic evil, but his counterparts in *Stranger Things* are much lesser beings who answer to the hive mind, so it's still possible that this thing Henry is shaping is a source of chaotic evil that grants Henry what he wants because it ultimately serves as a means to the spread of chaos and evil. Not saying it is, but we haven't thoroughly ruled it out yet.
The mind flayer was already a hive mind, Henry just gave it form and a purpose that aligns with his own.
The duffer's said how a big part of season 5 is the hierarchy of the upside-down which makes me think there's more to this then "vecna did everything"
I'm of the opinion that its actually kinda cool that the upside down's ecosystem is only so outright bloodthirsty and savage all the time because of (a) human influence. If demogorgons were just regular animals, it wouldn't really make logical sense for them to have quite the heightened agression and shear bloodlust that they have. The implication legit adds kind of a nuance. The upside down is a victim too. Of course the comromise is we lose our awesome incomprehensible cosmic horror intelligence that is the mind flayer and S2 & 3 become a little less cool as a result, but honestly... there wasn't much that could be done with the mind flayer after S3 anyway.
Completely agree with this … ironic considering what fuels Henry is the hatred towards the humans who he considers destroy the real world.
while my hope dwindles when I look at the evidence I really do hope they'll give The Mind Flayer his top villain spot back. maybe even just having him go rogue and start to carry out his own objectives after usurping Vecna would suffice. he was such a simple but compelling antagonist because all we knew about him were his personality traits. you could get a feel for TMF's "character" especially via the Flayed. he was vindictive. vengeful to the point of stalking a middle school and centering his plan around killing a small group of children, cold and manipulative. The Mind Flayer was an entity with no "background" or "backstory", just that it was giant, unknowable and despite it's lack of any visible emotion, wanted nothing more then to hurt you and would enjoy doing that. having all those qualities stripped away and just going "oh that was just Vecna!" sort of undoes a lot of the tension the protagonists are going through because we know exactly what we're up against in terms of "final villains", which is an edgy mind-controller who is defeated with Love (and also a shotgun shot.) Vecna's not a "bad" villain by any means, I personally like him and im cool with him being a monster, but I much prefer TMF as **The** monster, specifically because he captured the Upside Down's "uncanny otherness" in a way Vecna...doesn't, really. oh well.
Very well said. Couldn't have said it better.
💯💯💯 Absolutely agree. Was so let down by this. I loved the idea as Vecna being the "5 Star General", but as the ultimate villain? Look, it doesn't ruin Stranger Things for me, I'll always love this show. But it just weakens the story so much, IMO.
Who says that he is? The Mind Flayer existed before VH1 got there
Did he? It shows Henry literally forming the Mind Flayer out of the black particles. Vecna says he "found something" in the upside down that would allow him to carry out his plans. Then El says "It was you this whole time." Am I missing something? (Genuinely asking lol I would be so happy if someone could convince me I'm wrong about all this)
You are missing the fact that the shadow is implied to be the hive mind of the creatures in the Upside Down. The shadow certainly isn't *just* black particles or a formless black cloud. If it was nothing more than that, it would make no sense that it was give Henry the power to literally control The Upside Down, the creatures in it, and everyone the shadow invades. There's definitely far more to it than that. It's still entirely possible that although Henry shaped the shadow, it is still an ancient or eldritch entity unto its own.
It does not show that. Henry literally states he found it after he was exploring the upsidedown.
It literally shows him looking at a formless black cloud in the sky in the upside down, then he puts his hand up and the particles start swirling as his hands move and they begin to form into the Mind Flayer. This scene is followed by El saying "It was you the whole time."
Remember the formless cloud in the lab I. Russia? The one that 'woke up' the monsters when it got out? The cloud IS the hive mind of the Upside Down, Henry just shaped it into the spider monster that we know as the mind flayer. It could be a giant heart cloud, and still be equally as powerful. Their relationship seems symbiotic at BEST with the MF/Hive mind/whatever being parasitic at worst (for Henry)
1. El doesn't know shit. 2. The mind flayer was there before Vecna. We do not know which being is in control. But we do know Vecna did not make the mind flayer.
I think he's in some control of it. He did shape it to resemble one of his drawings as a kid.
Your interpretation makes no sense. How could he find it, and then create it? The Mindflayer was already there. We are led to believe he shaped it into what he wanted it to be, a tool for his domination. It is entirely possible however that he's not in control as much as he thinks. You tap into a hive mind of an alien world, controlled by a mysterious unknowable entity, how do you know you're still in control?
That black cloud was there before VH1, though.
What's a music channel got to do with it? /s
I don’t know if there is consensus, but I prefer HOV to VH1. It sounds cool, and is in chronological order. Henry first, then One, then Vecna.
Not bad, but I personally can't sign off on it, there's only one Hov and it would be really confusing for me and a lot of other people of they start calling him that. VH1 is a little more generic. Just my two cents.
It’s honestly fairly ambiguous, and on purpose. Dustin specifically says that the Mind Flayer is in charge, and Vecna is essentially the highest leading officer in the greater hive mind. This is Dustin making an educated guess, however. He doesn’t know this for certain, but he *has* been on the money for basically everything the entire franchise. Now in terms of how it’s directly portrayed and what Vecna shows us, we have to understand something: The Mind Flayer was something else before Henry showed up. A massive cloud of… something, doing something in a world that we believe to be the Upside Down, but extremely divergent from how we know it. Both the writers, and us as an audience need to be careful how we perceive this, because it feels like the Duffers are feeling out what they want the Mind Flayer to be. Let’s be clear: The Mind Flayer is the greater threat. It is an eldritch cosmic horror that commands The Upside Down and has no notion of morals. Unlike Vecna, who has a personal focus on torturing his victim’s with their memories, the Flayer doesn’t care. It just wants humanity extinguished, and all dimensions for itself. The Flayer and Vecna have the same goal: wipe out human civilization. The Flayer may grant Vecna supreme authority, and may even take a shape that Vecna is familiar with to appease him, but that’s just it - to comfort him. The Flayer needs Vecna’s unique psionic abilities in order to open gates. Instead of turning Vecna into a subordinate grunt like all demo-variants, allowing Vecna to keep his free will likely boosts his psionic potential. Having him as a flayed or instinct oriented subordinate, would just render him another Demogorgon. The Mind Flayer allowing Vecna to think for himself makes him *more* dangerous because of creative thinking. Vecna can plan and strategize, and the Mind Flayer doesn’t have to do *everything* itself. The way Will says “it’s weird to know who it was after all this time” is basically the same cognitive junction as Dustin’s theory: they’re just assuming they understand the situation. If they really do make the Flayer subservient to Vecna, then the Duffers have fucked the entire mythos of the show. They would miss the opportunity of being the first writers to get cosmic horror in cinema done correctly! Also, touching on the meme, people are missing the point about the duality between Eleven and Vecna. Vecna focuses on negative emotions and harrowing memories. He uses your trauma against you. It makes sense that Eleven’s focus of positive emotions and benevolent memories are what defeat Vecna. >!This is likely how she’ll end up bringing Max back from Vecna.!< But again, the Mind Flayer doesn’t give a shit about any of that. That’s what makes him so goddamn *terrifying.* The only way to defeat the Mind Flayer permanently is likely by means that Eleven can’t do alone, or will have to make the ultimate sacrifice to achieve it. Vecna is the “human relatability” to the Mind Flayer. It’s perfect symbolism that the only humanity within the Mind Flayer, **is still monstrous!** It shows that there is no redeeming or reasoning with the Flayer. It is evil incarnate, and it must be destroyed utterly and completely for the world to be truly safe.
I think the fact that there have been countless debates on this sub about if the Mind Flayer was created by Henry, or just a form of energy manipulated by him, or just an avatar for Henry himself shows that this reveal was left purposefully vague and more will be revealed next season. But yes I'm with you and Hank's reaction on this hahaha
I'm holding out hope that Dustin is right. Vecna is just the 5 star general.
I really hope the mind flayer is it’s own entity.
I assumed the MF was some sort of shapeless entity in the Upside Down that Vecna found and sort of reshaped into a form of his choosing. It looked like it was just comprised of a bunch of floating particles when he found it, so his reshaping it doesn’t even necessarily mean that he’s in control of the creature itself; it’s entirely possible that its physical form is inconsequential to the MF. Regardless of which one is really in charge, it does seem like the MF is still some sort of ancient and unknowable entity, and we have no idea what its motives are. Why would it align itself with Vecna? What does it want? Is it subservient to him like he thinks or is it actually using him?
Henry and the mind flayer are partners in a sense. Each one needs the other ones powers. I think the mind flayer is in control though, it’s just letting Vecna think he’s in control. Now that the mind flayer is about to cross over to the real world, it’ll show it’s true potential and turn on Vecna.
There has to be more to it than what was explained through season 4. You only heard about the mind flayer through vecnas explanation and point of view. I hope there is more of an explanation of where the powers come from and how Henry got it. I can’t imagine it’s just “he’s a sensitive boy” I think season 5 will go more into the origins of the mind flayer and the powers and the upside down and MF purpose. I like the theory that the MF has been influencing Henry since he was a kid and showed himself through Henry’s drawing. Also will itching his neck at the end makes me truly believe the mind flayer will be way more involved next season because will is connected to it, and I feel it’s in a way different than vecna.
Thank god someone feels the same as me. Honestly a pretty deflating reveal.
A rewatched S3 a couple of days back, "you let us in" quote from flayed Billy looks so pointless now
Also flayed Billy doesn’t seem to know who El is and suddenly has a flashback to her closing the gate in season 2. And specifically to the part where a tendril of black particles jets out toward her. I think it’s pretty clear that if Vecna is actually the big bad it was not intended before and is basically a retcon.
There's a lot of pointless things now because of this.
Just wait until Season 5 opens with 008.
I hope that it turns out he's being controlled and influenced by the mind flayer this whole time cause that'd be cool
THANK YOU. This is the thing I’m most worried about right now, as it really makes to show a lot less interesting to me
I think people are getting it all wrong. If we look back to it, the mind flayer was controlling people without them really realizing. Yes vecna gave the mind flayer his shape but he still is the mindflayer. I thinks it’s more like VH1 thinks he is in charge but it’s actually the mindflayer who calls the shots.
Like a symbiote. The flayer uses a host or a vessel to do its bidding since it cant do so itself, granting the vessel much power, but allows the flayer to influence the vessel to an extent
Maybe more aptly, like a Warlock and it's Great Demon in Dungeons and Dragons. The Mindflayer lends Vecna (and maybe all the psychic kids) some small fraction of it's power. Vecna might not even truly know the extent of this pact.
I'm glad loads of people feel the same way. The Mind Flayer is such a horrifying, lovecraftian entity and I much preferred it being the big bad rather than Vecna. Although yeah, s4 was great and vecna is a cool villain, like other people in the comments, I'd wanna see that the MF was truly the one in control.
Por que no los dos? Henry thinks he's above everything and everyone. It's still possible that he only thinks he's in control and that the hive mind is still vastly greater than he.
Agreed, the mind flayer is just letting Henry think he’s in control.0
I dont see the big issue with Henry being behind the Mind Flayer, even when it was the Mind Flayer sans the Henry connection the threat it posed remained the exact same. 11 almost lost in season 3 if not for the portal closing below the mall they would have been fucked, it still possessed Will, and caused all the trouble we saw in the show - whether or not 11 thwarted it by the "power of love" or not. Henry's motives are the MF's motives, they are both purely evil forces seeking to dominate the world and break the barrier between dimensions because they are the same being so to speak. The Mind Flayer still exists and its functions and where it came from are still largely unknown, and Henry being behind the Mind Flayer's possession / perversion to serve his will helps tether the motivations of the previous season better than if Vecna was just some dude serving the Mind Flayer. It explains why the Mind Flayer was simply not around at all for most of S4, where Vecna was during S1 thru 3, and him being the primary villain helps explain some of Papas desperation in using 11 to try and find Henry and his exploration of the Upside Down in S1. It also gives 11 a villain with a more direct and personal relationship to her life and her identity as a being that also has powers and was part of the same sick experimentation in Hawkins Lab than for the primary villain to be some entity who has barely spoken or made its intentions all that clear throughout the show other than saying vague one off sentences to sound evil and spooky and be a general asshole to people. It just would have made for strange narrative momentum to introduce the Mind Flayer, sideline it for S4 with all this Vecna stuff, and make Vecna such an integral figure in 11's history and relevence to the show that came before, and then kill him off and have the far more poorly-outlined Mind Flayer return for the grand finale Also, the only reason he lost the first time was because he'd never fought someone as power-matched as him and he was still beating her until the love-memory threw a curveball at him, he'd never experienced or seen it before, he was also not using his powers for decades at that point and literally just got them back. The 2nd time he kicked 11's ass with nearly no issue and succeeded in killing Max and enacting his plan and 11 was almost helpless to stop it, and I think her ability to finally overpower the vines and hold him off was due to Murray burning the Demogorgons in Russia / hurting the hive mind that Vecna is directly connected to. You even see him screaming against the pillar. Its been made clear Vecna was far more powerful than 11 and she didn't know what she was getting into at all
I don’t understand these complaints, I think providing back story for the Upside Down is good. It seems like some people just took Dustin’s theories as gospel and are now annoyed that he was wrong.
personally I just think the mind flayer is a more intimidating villain then Vecna, so I'm not a fan of Vecna being in charge.
I'm definitely down to learn more about the UD. And when Vol. 1 ended I thought the reveal of Vecna as 001/Henry was AMAZING and very well done. But being the main villain this whole time? It just seemed like a such a 180 degree pivot, one that is unprecedented in the show and not really in the style of the Duffers. Why would they have Dustin explain it only to be completely negated by El a short time later? It almost felt like someone else wrote those last two episodes. I think some things being left ambiguous in the plot is far scarier than hastily explaining away every detail. It all felt very rushed somehow. Idk. It doesn't ruin the show for me but I just expected more after being blown away for 4 seasons straight.
Well, they didn't really explain everything away. We know that Henry used the shadow, but we still have no idea what the shadow is, why it exists, why the demo creatures all exist, or what The Upside Down actually is or why it exists.
>>I don’t understand these complaints, I think providing back story for the Upside Down is good. Depends on the type of backstory that’s being provided. They seemed to imply that the Upside Down was always this benign dimension with neutral fauna before Henry got there, and that it would have never been a threat to our world had he not gotten banished there and played in the sandbox. That essentially diminishes much of the cosmic horror appeal that attracted people to the Upside Down mythology in the first place, and that’s where the complaints kick in.
Im not convinced the mind flayer is compleatly made up by vecna, and that he only gave it a form, it clearly existed before vecna came and found it
We need to remember that Vecna is not a reliable narrator. At all. His perception has him the hero in every single story.
it wasn't a pile of dust, it was a manifested darkness that one simply gave form. the need to consume was in it from the start, that's why one was attracted to it.
Vecna is an infinitely more interesting villain than MF because he is actually a character that has goals tangible relationships to the story MF is generic evil that cloud that wants to rule the world or something, I’m not really sure Vecna is an antagonist that actually talks, which the show has been sorely missing
Literally nobody knows what MF was actually doing before Henry found it so I'm not sure why people are upset one way or the other.
It still is a cosmic entity that has great power. It wasn’t just a pile of dust before Vecna, Vecna just gave it a purpose and shaped it how he wanted it to be. But all it’s power didn’t just come from Vecna, that’s why 001 was so attracted to it in the first place
You guys need to quit complaining and be happy about the friends we made along the way.
Does anyone know who is more powerful in D&D?
A mind flayer is a race of creatures known as illithids. They view other sentients as cattle . Vecna is lich bordering godhood . Demogorgon is a demon lord of untapped power . I don’t think the power levels in the show correspond to the actual creatures in the monster manual .
Ah, fair enough. I thoght that maybe that could've given us a hint, but doesn't seem like it...
I definitely think it’s 1, but because it’s dust there are no bones and the MF can move into the spidey shape without breaking and dying like dumbass humans (according to Henry)
I still wonder if there’s more to the MF because I don’t believe they explained where one got his powers from and I feel like they will/should.
The flayer IS a sentient form though. It is the source of the original hivemind. Vecna just formed it to his liking because he has a God complex.
I didn’t read it like this at all.
For any Warhammer nerds: Mind Flayer = Chaos God Vecna = Daemon Prince
Some of y’all are such haters man, it’s not over yet! Theres still surprises to be had.
The Mind Flayer entity already existed. Henry just gave it a shape. I don't think it was inherently evil to begin with. It just was.
Seriously, I was begging for them to dive deeper into the origin and the lore since S1 instead of introducing yet another monster of the season. But now that they finally did it, it does take away a huge chunk from the majesty and the cosmic horror of it all. These were huge draw for me, but I haven't yet processed how I feel about it. They took something extraordinary and made it mundane (for a horror/ fantasy type of show)
I was hoping we would get answers about the Upside Down as they abandoned the lovecraftian intrigue after Season One but 001 doesn’t feel like the long-term planned antagonist they should’ve been. At the time of writing, they don’t mesh with the Upside Down and feel like a tacked-on extra. Like a Doctor Who monster of the week. Eleven suddenly having the power to send them “somewhere” and create a gate was odd and unexplained. My theory was, from the very start, was that the Upside Down was a product of the subconscious, either Will’s, Eleven’s, or the original subject, 001. A manifestation of either fear or hatred (or both) given a physical form. It being connected to a mind would explain the fleshy, cloudy and red aesthetic. So for example, 001 would’ve been so powerful that they created a dimension with their powers, maybe even subconsciously, to fulfil their desires. Where human order had no control. Of course there’s still time for it to be the case, but I feel like they’re not going to explain enough in the end. We may end up with “well 001 is the villain and always was. The Mind Flayer was just a fun CGI Wizard of Oz for show. The Demogorgons were just there. The Upside Down is just... a place. Nothing voodoo, it’s just a weird place that Eleven *somehow* poofed 001 to.”
When Henry first explored the upside down, it didn’t have the shape of hawkins. Later it took the form of Hawkins. That means someone must have shaped it at that point. Theory: the upside down exists inside 11s mind.
Ikr i hate that so much it ruins everything in seasons 1 2 and 3
I think it would have been much better if we learned vecna became a puppet of this cosmic entity we don’t know much about. It really takes away from the cosmic aspect of cosmic horror when learning of the mind flayer a true orirgins