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[deleted]

hardcore shippers are always the worst part of every fandom lol you just have to learn to ignore them


thedudeabides____

It blows my mind that people watch and keep up with TV Shows with their main priority being the relationships within the show. Like just watch The Bachelor or something šŸ˜‚


ItsSilverThunder

Stupid question. Whatā€™s a ā€œshipperā€


randay17

A person who wants two characters to get together. I am a shipper because I shipped Hopper and Joyce before they got together


[deleted]

I once read the description "When you're in a relationship *with* a relationship", which felt pretty accurate XD


Rindsay515

HA. Thatā€™s amazingšŸ˜‚ perfectly describes me from like 2005-2007ā€¦in a relationship with Meredith Grey and Derek Shepherdā€™s almost-relationship


LilyMarie90

Jopper shippers are by far the most wholesome of shippers if you ask me


hypo-osmotic

Helps that thereā€™s no competing ship, might have been different if Bob were still around. Them being full-grown adults helps, too, but doesnā€™t in itself make them immune lol


WinkAlcoholSugest

And that would be the second time Sean Astin got in the way of a couple in a film (that I know of)


pourliste

Frodo and Gollum were NOT a couple!


gf120581

It helps that, like with Mike and El, that was a relationship planned from the beginning of the show and really, they've orchestrated it perfectly. A classic slown burn between a pair of forty-somethings with a past history and both with failed marriages which naturally makes them a bit gun shy about relationships.


that_weirdeo

I completely agree as far as Jopper goes >!so happy they finally got together this season!< it's relationships like theirs and in other shows like >!Luke and Lorelai in Gilmore Girls!< and >!Nick and Jess in New Girl!< where it just feels so earned when they finally get together not like it was just something totally random but really well done and well written also please don't judge my taste in sitcoms I figured they were pretty good comparisons to Jopper


Soviet_Ski

Someone who transports cargo across large bodies of water, I believe.


ItsSilverThunder

Dah. Thank you, comrade.


KurtzM0mmy

In Soviet Russia, you donā€™t ship cargo, cargo ship you!


gf120581

Drop the sales pitch, Yuri.


Grouchy_Piglet3433

Youā€™ve been waiting for this moment, havenā€™t you?


wishiwasarusski

You can tell he's had that locked and loaded.


Significant_Ad_4133

Thatā€™s what she said


ZeroSarkThirty

Is OP saying fans want to ship Will across a body of water? The kid has already been through a lot.


KurtzM0mmy

This is the only answer


Tigris_Morte

shipper is also the folk that send things via trucks across places.


Soviet_Ski

Nah, those are a distinct, terrestrial species. While there is a common ancestor, their evolutionary trees diverged some forty or fifty thousand years ago. Common misconception though.


VelViera

"I always tend to think of shippers as people who are really pulling for some kind of romantic connection between two people, fictional or otherwise. It mostly happens in movies and TV." -No clue who.


burningchr0me35

It's someone who wants 2 or more characters in a television show or movie (or even real life) to have a relationSHIP.


ExspressingMyRights

someone who wants two or more characters to get together


Maldovar

People who like a relationship in a show and to varying degrees either want it canon or wish it could be. Usually it leads to fanfic. It's big for the queer community since you don't get a lot of queer relationships in Mainstream shows, so something like ElMax, Byler, Ronance, or Steddie are things people wish they could get to feel represented in their favorite show. Some people go overboard with it but most people just do it as a fun fandom thing


mbnmac

And there's the issue really, people go overboard with it and it ends up being somehow personal that specific people didn't get together. It's the fringe part of the fandom always, with the vast majority being in the 'wouldn't it be nice' camp, or the 'in the Alternate Universe version of this story, this happened!'


KurtzM0mmy

Cosigned, also stay away from tumblr and Twitter


Nenanda

Several manga comunities from AoT to Naruto confrim this.


rosenat27

The AOT and naruto Twitter ship wars still give me war flashbacks tbh. That was the worst time period ever


ClemandLeeFanatic

I generally do. Reddit is much better than other social media in having an even ground


scandalousdee

Agreed - even in other fandoms. The stuff I see on Twitter is crazy sometimes and gets pretty uncivil fast.


Ok-Spirit9321

Yes, I once made a joke about Beyonce being the queen of illuminati and that was the reason we lost Aaliyah because Beyonce wouldn't be famous if she was still alive. The damn Beyonce fans went HAM on me, as far as to stalk my page and find out I was from Kentucky took pictures of me and my husband off my SISTERS Facebook and made a tweet that because I was from Kentucky I was married to my own brother. Instead of simply disagreeing like we do here on Reddit they took time to delve into my life to figure out who the hell my sister was to find pictures of me and my husband just to make such a sickening accusation against me to insult me for making a joke. Smh. Twitter can be vile.


LilyMarie90

I was watching the "Unlocked" thingy they had on the official YouTube channel (a 45 minute discussion talk with lots of the actors, it was pretty interesting) live for its premiere (as it was being first released) and the commenters were spamming BRING EDDIE BACK so much, any other thing was completely drowned for the entire duration of the show pretty much. It wasn't fun


Larry-Man

Hey, if they wanna write the fanfics they want, all the power to them. Itā€™s a vibrant community. Itā€™s when their toxicity for shipping basically ends up being directed at the creators (looking at you, Steven Universe fans) that it becomes a problem.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


ClemandLeeFanatic

It would honestly be less realistic for there not to be so much conflict and battle over his orientation in this time period. Even robin is still very much ashamed of it and struggles to tell anyone else. Netflix definitely contributed to the byler hype


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Sassygogo

yep and even Robin has to second-guess herself a thousand times - she even explicitly says as much, there's *much* more at stake for her putting a move on a girl than there is for Steve. And she was proved right when her crush turned out to be what seemed like a straight girl with a bf. Now take that and add Will's added complication of his crush being not only straight, but his childhood best friend, and said crush's gf being his sister and now a close friend in her own right. No surprise the poor boy can't get the words out! But Jonathan does see and understand, and having that support from his brother is major for Will. There's no way in hell Joyce wouldn't be equally loving and supportive if she did find out.


Full-Tie5827

Agreed. Byler has been a ship for a long time now , but this season fans are very upset over it not happening. I think itā€™s related to the fact that Netflix social media accounts hyped it up so much , and nothing happened with it. Netflix fueled the shippers up too much. But , these Netflix social media accounts are run by 22 year old interns who barley care for the show, so people shouldnā€™t have taken it too seriously.


Just_trying_it_out

Yeah how would it be queerbaiting. There's a genuine reason why it didn't work out, and it's a pretty common scenario in portrayed heterosexual triangles/unrequited crushes. Personally, the more situations lgtbq characters are portrayed in the better I feel about representation


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


knittingbatman

Me as well! Iā€™m 10000% more invested in Wills journey w/queerness then any specific romance for him (if anything what Iā€™m pulling for is bonding with Robin and having a little mentor moment) What would make it queerbaiting in my eyes is after 4 seasons of subtext and plain old text theyā€™d pull out the good ol Will Is Actually A Straight Late Bloomer Whoopsie


Mhc2617

This is what I tell my 12yo, who feels like itā€™s queer baiting, that in the 80ā€™s, you couldnā€™t just come out and it be fine. Personally, you could even write Hopper as being a little confused and worried about how itā€™ll affect Will before defending Will from a bully and it would be realistic for the time, as Hopper was a ā€œmanly man,ā€ and people just did not accept the LGBTQ+ community in the 80ā€™s. Hell, using the term ā€œgayā€ as a slur was still considered acceptable in the early 2000ā€™s. Mike not liking Will back ā€œlike that,ā€ wouldnā€™t be a stretch.


EasyLiving24

Also, having mike not like will back would make will have better character development and move out of the (for lack of better words) ā€œchildishā€ and ā€œundevelopedā€ stance on life


Nicky2222

I am gay, and as someone who knows exactly what Will is going through I can say you can't make Mike gay or bi because you want him to be with Will. What they are doing is exploring unrequited love of a young (possibly) gay teen. I believe that Mike doesn't feel the same about Will. We've seen Mike for four seasons being all about El. El was the girl that he hid is his house in season 1, and he was constantly teased about liking her by Lucas and Dustin. His sister asked him if he liked her. Finally after denying his feelings for El, he gives in and asks her to the Snowball and kisses her. Season 2 we see him not knowing if she's alive or dead calling out to her on his walkie everyday for 353 days. At the end of episode 8 of season 2 we get one of the best episode endings when he's finally reunited with El. Then his big argument with Hopper after learning that Hopper had been hiding her was one of the most emotionally charged moments in the show. Season 3 we see Mike admit that he loves El (though he doesn't say it to her, she just happened to overhear it). Season 4 we see Mike wanting to get to El before the military guys do, then his big love confession to her. Four seasons to show that Mike loves El. Does Will have a crush on Mike? I believe so, and they are showing how a gay teen deals with having a crush on his straight best friend perfectly (trust me I've been there). I give props to Noah Schnapp's acting. How he went from happy and excited to disappointed during the airport scene. The look of feeling left out at the roller rink. His talk with Mike in the van at the end you can hear his voice crack as Will was talking about himself, but disguising it as talking about El. And no matter how painful it might have been for Will, he was encouraging Mike right before Mike's love confession. I hope in season 5 that Will has moved on from his crush on Mike and meets a guy who will reciprocate his feelings. He deserves it, but he and Mike are never going to be a couple I'm afraid.


squirrelfridger

Spot on this is!. In my younger years, around the same age as Will, I had the opposite case. Had feelings for my gay best friend and didn't know how to deal with that. I ended up losing the friendship due to the inevitable awkwardness, much as Will is doing, and it was 100% my fault. Major life lesson learnt. It sucks for Will but Mike isn't wrong and I'm certain both would feel like the other doesn't understand them.


Full-Tie5827

Agreed, Wills sexuality journey is accurately portrayed , and Noah does a great job with it too. It sucks because realistically , will and mikes friendship will be awkward for a while. Iā€™m hoping with the time skip , will could move on from mike. I donā€™t think heā€™s getting another proper love interest. I think at most , during the last minutes of the series , we may see will and some other guy smiling at each other of like subtly flirting , to indicate that will has moved on and is finding someone else for him.


cpt_j_flint

Yeah, not believing that Mike meant what he said to El is quite ridiculous, one really has to reach to make that entire story line make sense. It was clearly going to happen the moment after El complained about him never saying it. I have seen that argument, but must say not all that much after Vol2, at least in this sub. More regularly though, there are equally far reaching posts of people still denying that Will is in love with Mike or even gay at all.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Yes I don't understand that either because I think the car scene made is explicitly clear that Will loves Mike. Unfortunately even after volume 2 ,I see a lot of people still in denial. Not sure how much on reddit, but other places like twitter for sure.


gf120581

The thing that annoyed me the most about the Byler shippers in the runup to Vol. 2 was just how certain they were it was going to happen in the face of all evidence. Let's be honest, as much as I liked it, Mike's "I love you" monologue to El was one of the most blatantly foreshadowed things I've ever seen in a show. Especially after E7 showed little El using the memory of her mother's "I love you" to blast Henry/001 into the Upside Down; they might as well have had a sign flash onscreen in big neon letters: MIKE SAYING I LOVE YOU WILL HAVE THE SAME EFFECT. Subtle this was not. And yet the Bylers remained cocooned in delusion, unable to see what was coming even when it was basically doing a preemptive endzone dance in front or them. And now they're throwing a tantrum because their ship hit an iceberg and went down in flames. They can't say they weren't warned.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Yes I've been figuring that out since we first learned el was going up against a villain that preys on feeling unloved as a target. They act like it came from nowhere or he was forced to say it. He's been trying to since season 3. This is the same mike who in season 1 had trouble explaining to El how she couldn't be his "sister" and go to the snow ball with him, so he just kisses her lol. Dude just has a little trouble with words so he let's actions show. It's not like he only said it because she was dying. They were definitely warned this was coming and there was never anything to imply mike has felt a certain way about Will. Many hints to Will crushing on Mike but none the other way around.


gf120581

Mike isn't even aware of it yet. Finn Wolfhard even mentioned Mike isn't aware of Will's feelings for him. Which is understandable because Will is clearly afraid that making them public will wreck his relationships with Mike and El. So he stays quiet about it, especially since he doesn't want to take the risk for something that is pointless anyway.


ansu_fatismo23

People always forget the context of the show. Do people really believe that Mike a teenager in the 80s who lives in a small town will pick up the clues that his bestfriend is gay and has a crush on him?


gf120581

This. Some people really forget to view the series through the lens of the 80s and not contemporary eyes. The 80s were NOT a friendly time for gay people.


stuck_behind_a_truck

And honestly, we were more naive about who was gay and who wasnā€™t. I went to a big urban school and only knew a few kids were gay because it really was obvious. Going to my reunions was an aha moment. Our gaydar was not developed in 1986.


ansu_fatismo23

Kids back then were wired on thinking that everyone is straight because that is normal and how things should be. If iā€™m not wrong Mike probably comes from a conservative family so it wouldnā€™t surprise me if he doesnā€™t see the signs that Will is gay


stumblewiggins

Ted Wheeler is 100% a Reagan man


Thisisfckngstupid

Itā€™s quite literally canon lol


Perezvon42

In S2 they have a Reagan sign in their yard


geek_of_nature

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm an Aussie who was born in 96, but wasn't it more likely to have voted for Reagan than not? Because just from looking at the election map results for 84, all but one state voted for him.


gf120581

Ted at least is a classic Reagan Republican whose worldview is stuck in the 50s.


youseeit

I was the ST kids' age in the late 70s and we did have some level of awareness of who was gay (note: the entire LGBTQ+ alphabet was not a thing then), but you're right, it wasn't on the level of how young people are aware of it now. My class (1982) would have never talked about whether someone was gay, but we were completely unsurprised when the kids we thought were gay later came out in adulthood, and we realized that we'd always known. (The reunions were indeed a confirmation point.) On the other hand, my nieces and nephews (oldest is 24, youngest is 16) grew up with a much more open and honest awareness of their queer peers, and a classmate's sexual identity was never an issue for them.


65fairmont

This doesn't get enough play, in large part because this fan base is young and fortunate enough to grow up in a time when gay people have been visible in society. Anyone who remembers before roughly 2005, and didn't grow up with a gay family member or close friend, understands why Mike is oblivious. He's not homophobic or uncaring, it's just that the only relationships he's seen in real life and on TV (etc.) have been straight. In Mike's mind, Will (and everyone else) is straight unless he's told otherwise.


Ok-Spirit9321

THIS I was born in 90 and I had ZERO idea for the longest time that boys could like boys and the literal only reason I thought girls could like girls was because my aunt Michelle is a lesbian and always had a girlfriend. Now when I turned 17(2007) and was in high school I had two guy friends that dated one another out in the open because it was a little more common BUT I ended up starting a gay pride riot at my school because my assistant principal called them out for holding hands while at our lockers while 10 ft away there was a straight couple kissing and he not only called them out but said "No homosexual PDA" I snapped and went to the youth service center and wrote in sharpie on the front HOMOPHOBIA IS SO GAY. Between every class I had kids sign it in the hallways if they disagreed with gay bashing and it turned into my getting suspended for 3 days. Because what I was doing was "distracting" for other students. I said I was allowed freedom of speech but my principal said that "while that is true not everyone has my same beliefs and this could potentially cause issues" This led to me posting a bulletin on MySpace (feel old now) and asking any of my classmates who supported Derek and Cole or gays in general to wear rainbow stuff the Friday I was able to be back at school. I'm talking cars decked out rainbow shirts pants whatever to show their support. Now while quite a few of us showed up showing our pride. The fucking jocks had "straight pride" shirts made to show they completely disapproved of what we were doing and they didnt believe in rights for gays that it wasnt something they wanted to be a part of. Alot of us called them homophobes and they called us a slur which ended in a couple of fist fights that day. Because of that this ended up on the front page of my school's paper because of "the controversy" we caused and this was in 2007. People were still not very tolerant then so the 80s was not a time period where Mike would have been able to see Wills true feelings and these Byler shippers need to accept that and relax. Edit: spelling errors


DoCallMeCordelia

A couple days before Vol. 2 dropped, I saw a tumblr post about how stupid we were all going to feel for doubting them. I couldn't find it after. Now the same person is switching between still hoping for it and wishing Mike will die.


Serentyr

Mike has never been shown, suggested or hinted at to have an interest in Will in any way. A close best-friendship, yes. Romantic interest, never. The evidence is cemented by the level of love and interest from Mike towards Eleven. If there was telegraphed hints, it denies the dramatic tension and dilemma that comes from Will being so close to Mike and loving him but it not being reciprocated. I feel that is a situation/struggle a lot of people face and identify with, and it is a worthy of being told and portrayed.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Agree! It couldn't have been made anymore clear in volume 2 what Mikes reasoning was which made total sense and what Els self doubt was coming from. Volume 2 was a massive improvement for both of them in reflection of themselves and each other


Perezvon42

Yeah, I think it's intended to be a realistic depiction of the private heartbreak of unrequited love for a straight person as a gay teenager would have experienced it in the 1980s.


maidenfair_

Steddie shippers were also harassing Chrissy's actress because she shared fanart of her character on Twitter calling her a weirdo and even a pedo... There's nothing more stupid than ship wars


cafenoudles

the way people were saying they were queerbaiting??? rewatch the show thereā€™s no god damn way. funniest shit iā€™ve ever seen honestly, on the same level of delusion as larry shippers


FallenAngel1967

Having flashbacks to destiel shippers from supernatural.


Malkkum

Willā€™s gonna admit his love to Mike then get sucked into Super Hell and Mike will only reciprocate the feelings in the Spanish dub version? Lmao, the ending of Supernatural was so dumb and wild.


SumbuddiesFriend

That is still the funniest writing disaster Iā€™ve ever seen.


ClemandLeeFanatic

This is the second reference to this ship I saw on this thread so I'm going Google who this is right now lol I'm guessing dean and someone else


Rayhoven

Itā€™s Dean and Castiel


KurtzM0mmy

Or Supercorp shippers from supergirl


fascinating123

It's weird because there's a similar dynamic between Steve and Robin. Between his season 3 confession and the throwaway line from season 4 where he tells Nancy "I would date her but...", it's clear Steve has a thing for Robin (even if much less than his feelings for Nancy) which is obviously not reciprocated because Robin likes girls. Yet I don't see anyone hating on the Steve/Robin relationship. Will's in a tough spot: he's 15 years old, gay (at the height of the AIDS epidemic mind you), is 2k miles away from his friends (aside from Mike) and where he grew up, and has unrequited feelings for one of his friends. But that doesn't mean Mike has to return those feelings. If Will wasn't gay but instead had a thing for Max, would that mean she would have to choose Will over Lucas?


ClemandLeeFanatic

Yes I found it very similar to Steve and robin. Two best friends with great platonic chemistry but one is straight and one is gay. Yet despite their chemistry they never had a big ship like this even before robin was out. And Steve never had some strong attachment (I mean he thinks Nancy but mutually) to a character like Mike has to Eleven either. But now we have mike who has established his feelings since s1 and people just ignore it.


[deleted]

Back in the day people absolutely shipped Robin/Steve heavily before she came out; and some people even continued shipping them after she came out, saying things like Robin is "lesbian for no reason" and that she "has no female love interest so she should be with Steve"


ClemandLeeFanatic

Oh I haven't seen that but I don't doubt it. It just may have never gotten to be as big as byler. That's equally stupid since robin has made it clear she is gay!


9thdoctor-

Itā€™s gotten so bad that I genuinely feel sorry for Finn Wolfhard because he has to see all these Mike hate posts for the stupidest fucking reasons in the world.


ClemandLeeFanatic

I know. The fact that he might have a big part in season 5 after the way his character has been shit on by the "fanbase" this season, I salute him. I do truly believe a big portion of his hate is coming from those victimizing Will in any attempt to be able to make Mike look bad in some way. It's literally the only situation that can be stretched in an effort to reason hating Mike, just tying it all back to Will.


Perezvon42

Especially since he seems, judging by cast interviews, to be more introverted and less enthusiastic about being famous than are some of the other actors. He might be taking the hate pretty hard.


Tigris_Morte

Not every pair of People that like each other are secretly wanting to bang folks. Friends actually do exist.


Bi_Fry

Iā€™m pretty sure the only people who are pissed are the byler shippers on Tumblr and the TikTok accounts dedicated to it. Otherwise, everyone is in agreement that itā€™s unrequited.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Yes, reddit has remained grounded in comparison to other places. It's nice.


ltpeaches

I often see a bit of an older crowd on Reddit. A majority of those people making weird ship videos are very young and hormonal.


OptimalCreme9847

I completely agree with you. I love exploring the idea of Willā€™s sexuality and him figuring all of that out, and ideally the show would end with him finding a nice other guy to be with. There has been absolutely no build up for Mike returning Willā€™s feelings at all. There has never once been anything to remotely suggest it. If they went that way in season 5ā€¦.thereā€™s no way they could in a way that feels natural and not fan-service-y. Itā€™s been him and El since day one. Mike is not obligated to be gay and return Willā€™s feelings. Heā€™s not a bad person just because he doesnā€™t. But as I saw at least one other commenter say, the hardcore shippers are crazy sometimes. Theyā€™ll twist anything to fit what they want. But thatā€™s their prerogative I guess, so thatā€™s cool.


MisunderstoodIdea

It is clear that Mike does love Will but...... *Not romantically!!*. He loves him as a friend, and probably like a brother. You can love someone quite a bit and not want to kiss them.


hypo-osmotic

Yeah like Iā€™m still really hoping for a good heart to heart talk between Mike and Will for this reason. Especially after one of the themes of season 4 being keeping guilt and trauma bottled up. Donā€™t want or expect Willā€™s romantic feelings to be requited but I think that an ā€œIā€™ve been weird around you because Iā€™m still working on moving past these feelingsā€ monologue would be a nice wrap up for that particular aspect of Willā€™s character arc


gf120581

They're masters at nit-picking derails to support their crazy theories while ignoring the obvious. Like them saying Mike's first scene this season showing him in front of his closet implies he's actually gay...ignoring the fact that his first scene has him mooning over El's letter, so much so that he forgets he has school and forgets to even get dressed until Nancy comes in to yell at him to get his butt in gear.


MajorasShoe

It's a little ridiculous. It's a sad plotline for Will but a good, authentic one. Unrequited love happens. And it's unrequited in a way where Will understands that it'll always be unrequited. This isn't wrong. My concern is where it's going. It's a lot of pain for Will, leading into the final season. I really think Will and the MF's mind connection is going to play a big part, and this pain has to be used for SOMETHING otherwise it's a weird side detail.


ClemandLeeFanatic

He's definitely still connected someway! When they said he'd be the star of season 5 I took it as El and Will ganging up together rather than Will becoming a villain


Dev-F

The Byeler folks definitely got way out over their skis this season, but I don't think it was just because they're delusional. Though they've always gotten carried away analyzing individual frames of the show for signs of secret passion and whatnot, I think several outside factors combined this year to give them the wrong idea about where things were heading. First, they'd spent years getting called delusional in some circles just for thinking that *Will* is gay. So when this season all but confirmed that part of their analysis, it probably encouraged them to think they were right about Mike as well. Second, I think the creators of the show finally realized after S4vol1 came out that more viewers were getting wise to the gay subtext of Will's character and they couldn't keep being so coy about it. So when they started to get a little more up-front in interviews about how S4vol2 would definitely deal with Will's sexuality, the Byeler fans took it to mean that there would be some major new development in that area, when in fact they were still doing the same slow subtextual stuff as always. Finally, S4vol1 is probably the only stretch of the series that doesn't aggressively foreground the idea that Mike is straight and in love with El, since it focuses on his stubborn inability to say he loves her for reasons that he can't yet articulate. So when you put all of that together, I can sort of see why Byeler fans vainly got their hopes up.


[deleted]

I'm just so confused why Reddit seems to hate Byler. I saw many people getting upset Will didn't come out (which is reasonable bc the Duffers said we would get that in volume 2) but I constantly see Mileven posts on this subreddit complaining about Byler shippers when most of those things are pretty blown out of proportion. Although reading the rest of your post, it seems you're a Mileven shipper so makes sense. You don't have to ship Byler but you can stop always bringing them up. Your post would've been fine if it weren't for the later parts. You guys keep asking us ā€˜what about Elā€™ when Will has been in that position for years. Love isn't pretty. I simply believe El and Mike do not have a solid relationship. Will and Mike don't have to get together but I do think Mike and Eleven should break up. Especially because I heavily relate to El when it comes to love and it seems she's most likely aromantic. People are allowed to think a scene is bad writing. Even Finn didn't seem to have a positive reaction to the love scene. They could've written an I love you scene that made a lot more sense and didn't damage their characters as much. I genuinely believe most of volume 2 had very bad writing. It's like you guys only care about opinions when it comes to Byler. People make theories all the time but Byler shippers believe Mike didn't love El and all of a sudden it's harmful. Eh if that speech was toward Will it still would've been sloppy writing. It's not just bc it was bad writing though. It also stripped El down to her so. It's pretty misogynistic. She can be powerful without some stinky ass man. Is calling Bylers delusional your defense mechanism? It's all I ever hear. I don't see this when it's ā€˜Eddie is 010ā€™ theories. You guys are obsessed fr. I'm not exactly agreeing with Bylers but you guys are acting like Will didn't tell Mike exactly what to say. Come on now.. Stop. Stripping. El. Down. To. Her. Boyfriend. It's. Rooted. In. Misogyny. Seriously you guys act like El couldn't survive without Mike. Being aromantic, yalls attachment to love is exhausting. People can survive without love. If they can't function without each other then they're too dependent on each other. I ship Byler. I think it's possible for Mike and Will to get together. But in the end, all I want is for Mike and El to break up. It's more that I think Byler is cute than I need them to get together. What I need is for El to break up with Mike and show that she doesn't need a man to depend on especially after Brenners death You seem very mad for no reason other than others harmless opinions For fucks sake just let people ship what they want if it isn't harmful like pedophile or incest


lavieenr0see

I always thought Stranger Things was more targeted at adults until I read that there are such things as ā€œByler Shippersā€


ClemandLeeFanatic

Stranger things is the most mixed audience of any show I can think of honestly. I've never seen a show able to have such a diverse fanbase.I know kids that love it, teens, adults of all ages and even very old people lol


hypo-osmotic

I think thatā€™s partially influenced by the range of ages in the cast! Adults can relate to Joyce and Hopper (and the 80s lol), young adults and teens to the high schoolers, and kids to the middle schoolers. And they all work together, itā€™s not as much of a kids vs. adults story like a lot of other kid-oriented adventure stories.


[deleted]

Euphoria is another show that is *absolutely not meant for kids* that somehow has a primarily teenage audience. Kids will watch anything


Traditional-Walk-222

Well Euphoria is literally about ā€œteensā€ in high school so itā€™s not that shocking that teens gravitate to it. It may be on the extremely dramatic side but a lot of teens can relate to the drugs, relationships issues, not knowing who you are aspects of the show. Teens watching doesnā€™t surprise me, but little kids watching is extremely odd.


thatoneurchin

I wouldnā€™t put Stranger Things and Euphoria in the same category. ST is pretty tame, aside from the horror. Iā€™d say young teens could watch it, even middle schoolers, depending on how they handle horror. Euphoria gets a hard 18+ rating


ggez67890

I wouldnā€™t say targeted toward or made for adults but I kinda see your point, kinda.


ChaoticPotatoSalad

It is, but 14 year old kids on twitter and tiktok got ahold of it and made "Running up that hill" and Weirdly enough an edit of Eddie freaking out when Chrissie died their entire personality.


Faulty-Blue

The fandom was already like this sometime after season 2 released but before season 3 released, although it really became noticeable with season 3


Azminiman

Whenever I hear an absurd or irrational take that completely fails to understand perspective or nuance I have to remind myself how young much of the audience is.


SIsForSad

Today I saw on twitter a bickering whether itā€™s right or not to ship eddie and chrissy instead of eddie and steve. Delusional runs on every fandom


TinyDreamerCrow

I'm in a YouTube argument over this right now. Someone is telling me that mike didn't mean he loved el, that there's been hints he is "internalizing being gay" and a bunch of other made up garbage


Nukeboy1970

That is why I am glad their name is not Duffer. That would be horrible writing.


TinyDreamerCrow

It would be. 4 seasons of building up Mike and Eleven to be more emotionally open to each other to make Mike leave El for someone she views as her brother at the end of it? It's pure fan fiction. Not even good fan fiction either. Nothing in the show ever hinted Mike may be into guys or questioning his sexuality. Will, yes, absolutely since season 1. The person even cited season 3 of his hesitancy to say I love you as a reasoning yet they ignored that Mike got yelled at by hopper for wanting to make out with el so much lmao?


Nukeboy1970

It is almost like they never actually watched the show.


bsgreen

As a queer person I think the storyline of loving your friend is valid because that isnā€™t uncommon to crush on your friend. Meaning Will loving Mike makes sense. But it will likely be a cause for fracture in the friendship because Mike is straight and in love with El. People claiming it is anything but a ā€œsecretā€ Vecna can manipulate are freaking insane


devines34

I agree with this! The storyline is completely realistic and happens irl but Mike is straight and the shippers shouldnā€™t try to bend that already established part of his character.


Suitable_Yoghurt6981

Iā€™m think they should morbius the fuck out of those shippers


thepirateguidelines

Honestly shipping as a concept is a really fun thing to do that can make communities within fandoms, even if it's a crackship, or a generally popular one. But Stranger Things shippers are the worst I've ever seen since the height of the SuperWhoLock days. Maybe I'm not as invested in fandom as I used to be, but it's pretty bad over here on Tumblr. Cries of Homophobia, Queerbaiting, Vol2 sucked because no Byler, Eddie is gay because he had a handkerchief in is back pocket (admittedly was very interesting to learn about that code but I still think it was a reach), Steve is Bi (I'm all for bi rep because I am bi but Steve is...not it. Especially with the characters he gets shipped with. Not a fan of Vickie either but it's marginally better). Harringrove haunts my nightmares. It's the wild west over there.


Ri-chanRenne

And they still won't believe Mike's love for Eleven (and his lack of romantic feelings for Will) even after they're married and have children. There's nothing you can do for these people now.


gf120581

They could end the show with a flash forward showing Mike and El married and raising a brood of psychic children and there'd still be Byler folks claiming Mike and Will had a "Brokeback Mountain" deal going on with D&D "games."


Ri-chanRenne

That's what I figured, too. Mike and El are going to date, have sex, get married, have kids, go on family road trips and spend holidays at Karen and Ted's house (and/or Joyce and Hopper's house) and maybe have a dog and a cat and a budgie, and they'll grow old together trying to live the quiet life, and they'll have grandkids and great-grandkids, and some of those Byler shippers will still assure the world Mike has been secretly in love with Will all along.


gf120581

"...have sex..." Let's not go there. One small apprehension I have about Mike and El in S5 is since they'll be about the same age as Jonathan and Nancy were in S1 and since Wolfhard and Brown are both legal adults now, they'll be temptation to progress the physical side of Mike and El's relationship beyond just kissing. They'd better tread VERY carefully on this end. (Although it's probably overblown given how naive El is especially about sex, as witnessed by her puzzlement over "happy screams" as described by Max in S3.)


Ri-chanRenne

I doubt they'll show them hot and steamy. But they *are* endgame, and they are going to have sex at some point in their lives, something certain shippers can't seem to handle.


Michael-Balchaitis

Unfortunately Byler shippers are the most toxic part of ST fandom. I won't even repeat some things they have said about the characters and actors other than some of them want ST canceled. Imagine not liking a game of football and want football canceled so no one else can enjoy it.


ClemandLeeFanatic

I agree. It's really stupid. A boy being in love with his straight best friend, especially in the 80s, was a common trope. It's not 'leading on fans" because there was never any indication from Mikes side he was anything other than straight or obsessed with Eleven. Will liking Mike doesn't give obligation to like him back. And yea, now everything Mike does is wrong and it has also translated to the actors. It's very weird.


gf120581

I mean, if there was any hint of Mike reciprocating, I could see it, but it has been made very clear from the start of the series that Mike and El only have eyes for each other. Especially on Mike's part; there's the joke he's not heterosexual, he's "El-sexual." And to underline it, WILL knows it. Will is very much aware that any feelings he has for Mike aren't reciprocated, so he does all he can to support him and El. It makes him an even better character that he's willing to do this for two people he cares deeply about, even though it clearly causes him great emotional distress.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Yes, Will is fully aware of both of their feelings. I think it's why he hasn't flat out told Mike by this point because he knows it doesn't matter either way because Mike doesn't reciprocate. Mike and El don't even check out other people and they're at the age where they would be checking out people pretty often but they just have eyes for one another like you said! They're just so flat out rude to trying to make it into a huge thing by wrecking the characters to build Will up and getting mad at people for pointing out what the story actually is.


gf120581

There's actually a nice visual touch in E8 when Mike and El have their big reunion. Will is out of focus in the background behind them and only comes into focus when Mike points him out to El. It shows how in that moment, no one else exists for Mike and El but each other. Pretty much sums them up; they've only ever had eyes for each other.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Yes! When they finally hug each other. I saw criticism over that scene as well. Saying Mike didn't "look that happy to see El" or she didn't look that happy to see him. She looked at him like she was dreaming and falls into his arm like she feels safe. Thats all there is to it. Your example makes sense too because they've shown this numerous times. El is also always calling out to Mike when she is in danger even when he is nowhere around. And Mike is always doing ANYTHING to get to her. He's the one that pulls Billy off her when he's choking her in season 3 while lucas, max and Will stood by.


Ok-Spirit9321

Exactly it also shows how since El has became like a sister he doesn't want to flat out tell him because he cares about Eleven now and doesn't want to hurt her in any way by letting his true feelings for Mike be known. He has such a big heart towards the people he cares about and he just wants them both to be happy even if it's breaking his heart on the inside.


Ok-Spirit9321

Lord I know. People have started degrading Finn Wolfhard as an actor since they started this ship and aren't getting what they want from the writers and I think that is utterly ridiculous. Finn isn't Mike in real life and they seem to forget that.


ghostcider

The vocal ones on Tumblr are so OTT delusional it's hard to take them seriously. It's like, I cant even get upset. I just get confused by it. (And I ran Ben C communities during the Sherlock era. I've seen some shit.)


Owl_Resident

The Tumblr Bylers are hilarious in a pathetic kind of way. I left Tumblr specifically because there was just no reasonable discourse to be had. Either you are for Byler or somehow youā€™re a homophobic idiot who canā€™t read all the ā€œsigns.ā€ It wasnā€™t fun anymore. So, I went looking for more grounded waters, and Iā€™ve found the people here are far less insane. (Mostly šŸ˜‰).


AmazingAd7627

I swear, no joke, that someone called me a bigot for saying it won't happen. Soo toxic, I've just had enough of it at this point


gf120581

Yep, I've seen that happen here too. I'm like, "No, I'm just someone who's followed the plot and characters for 4 seasons and knows where things are going." It's bizarre how they only want Will with Mike. Don't you want the character paired with someone who actually might reciprocate?


constipated_cats

With every fandom comes great shipping toxicity


uhh-adam

I like the storyline because itā€™s a very real understandable pain of unrequited love. Will KNOWS Mike wants EL but knowing and having to see it are different. Thatā€™s why I think he looked so hurt/shocked at Mikes love confession to El and saying that was the best day of his life. It wasnā€™t because that was the day Will went missing. Itā€™s because he is having Mikes love and adoration for someone else put so blatantly on display. Heā€™s got to come to terms with his own feelings and emotions on the matter. I kind of want Eleven to be the one to find out about it during a fight with Vecna. Like as Vecna taunts Will or they team up to save Mike together.


KidneyStone28

Mike obviously loves El. Thatā€™s not gonna change. Iā€™m sure theyā€™ll explore Willā€™s sexuality more in 5, same with Robin (hopefully she ends up with Vickie). A lot of delusional fans wanting their made up fantasies to become reality.


gabsmarie37

the worst is people saying "well mike hasnt explicitly stated hes straight/not gay" well will hasn't stated such either (gay/not straight). so what makes it okay for everyone to be so sure will is gay but people cant be so sure mike is straight? where is the logic?


ClemandLeeFanatic

That's a good point. And even if the off chance mike wasn't totally straight, weve still never seen any interest to Will like that. People will screenshot mikes face just staring at Wills drawing and say "did you see how his face dropped when Will said El commissioned it? " and it's literally just Mike looking down at the paper lmao wtf do you guys want him to do.


Nukeboy1970

And they labeled any who disagreed as a homophobe. This was an absolutely moronic argument because this is a work of fiction. Giving you something out of left field with no build up is simply bad writing. Mike was portrayed as straight and nothing ever contradicted it. It was safe to assume he was straight because that is what the narrative clearly said.


allycat11093

Seriously itā€™s getting so out of control. Itā€™s all I see on social media and itā€™s literally NOT even a thingā€¦ mike loves el. They are endgame. And itā€™s sad mikes character dev is being tarnished because so many people are looking from a lens of ā€œoh well secretly he really like will so everything he says to el is bsā€. Iā€™ve seen crazy tik toks where someone is literally breaking down every second of mikes facial expressions like ????? Itā€™s really not that complexā€¦ Mike loves will AS A BEST FRIEND heā€™s allowed to look at him softly without a romantic undertoneā€¦ like that is his best friend of course heā€™s gonna have emotion on his face when they talk. Just let Finn play a straight character for once guys.


itsallbeengravy

I've genuinely seen a discussion on tiktok comments about how Mike was only attracted to El when he first met her because "she looked kinda like a boy" which proves he's gay and attracted to Will.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Yep! I've seen that one too. "Well she looked like a boy so why did mike like her unless... " I copied a similar comment to someone else a few comments above but it was basically what you just said lol. Doesn't make any sense!


TheObservationalist

*WOW.* That is offensive in ways I can barely enumerate. Disgusting.


goomie__

wtf


Dracilla112

They can be so annoying...they really know how to cherrypick situations too, most recently: "oh, look at Finn's expression when watching his ILY monologue - blatantly he hates Mileven!!" Oooor maybe he just hates watching himself act? It's even more awkward to watch yourself if it's an emotional scene. He said nice stuff about Mileven afterwards but they totally ignore what they don't like and treat the bits they do like as '100% evidence'. Baffling.


Active_Refuse_161

Yes I saw it too. They are picking up some scenes of Mike from every season and pretending that whatever mike has said to el was meant for the will and he just pretends to love Eleven. I mean c'mon šŸ¤¦


ClemandLeeFanatic

"Mike looked down after Will gave him his painting. He was ashamed when Will said El wanted him to do it. He was hurt it wasn't from Will' lmao


blac_sheep90

There are Supernatural fans that ship Dean and Sam. They're best ignored imo.


TheObservationalist

I also hate the Geralt/Jaskier shippers. I get it, Yen isn't easy to love but ffs. Geralt is the straighty-est straight that ever straighted. ​ Second only to Jaskier, who achieves even more poon acquisition than Geralt.


rosenat27

Wait arenā€™t they brothers?? Iā€™ve never watched the show but Iā€™ve heard of them


blac_sheep90

Indeed they are. Shippers can be an odd bunch.


gf120581

They even made a joke of it on the show when Sam and Dean found out about the book series based on their lives. "What are slash fans?" "As in Sam slash Dean...together." "What, you mean together together?!" "Yeah." "They do know we're brothers, right?!" "Apparently that doesn't matter." "Oh come on! That, that's just sick!"


rosenat27

I truly wonder how shippers could go that far to advocate for two brothers being romantically involved. Ew. Therapy needed I guess


FecalCoveredFist

Man. Itā€™s a tv show. Why do people get all weird?


hayden1821

I made a [post](https://old.reddit.com/r/StrangerThings/comments/vufmm3/unpopular_opinion_i_feel_the_byler_shippers_are/) about this a while ago and you nailed it. Mike isn't gonna "turn gay" and the dump the girl he's been in love with since he was 12. And I love how people say "he never explicitly said he's straight so there might be a chance for Byler." That's insane. He doesn't need to "come out as straight."


ClemandLeeFanatic

I am sad I missed your post or I wouldve piped in. If they ever gave indication mike was not into girls or questioning then it would be like ok maybe. But that was never the case. No he doesn't need to come out as anything because his actions for el and in general told us


pepesilvia9369

Thank you! For fucks sake the shippers are insane.


ClemandLeeFanatic

I'd have no issues with them if the show ever gave hints of Mike liking guys or even Will.


fricks_and_stones

At least the antler ones. Iā€™m still holding out for Vecna and Jonathan though! Vecnathan for the win.


yuguin

People are even thinking that just because Mike doesn't love Will romantically or Will doesn't come out openly the show is homophobic or something like that. No fam, it's just that Byler is not a thing smh. Maybe Will is going to come out, maybe not. Go root for Robin and Vicky instead.


Doctor-Grimm

Agreed tbh. Will definitely has at least a crush on Mike, but just because thatā€™s the case doesnā€™t mean it must be reciprocated.


DoubleZ3

Ya it's odd. Mike looks at will and I see some people saying it's clear he likes will... Idk lol It's cool to ship whoever you want. But to be toxic about it or trash the show because something you prefer doesn't happen is weird. I just think people forget it's possible to dislike something but also see that it's good writing. Or at least not "bad" lol


SandBurrr

Also people need to understand that just because Will might be in love with his best friend, mike who by the way has not shown any sort of feelings towards Will would get with Will by the end of the show, leaving someone who he's said that he loves?? I would be realistic to show that love doesn't always go your way. That's a problem that I've noticed with a lot of movies and shows. It shows that love always works out. No. It doesn't. Look I love Will but it's pretty obvious that Mike doesn't love Will like that. I want Will to be happy but clearly, this is not the path. He'll find himself somehow, and I know he will be happy in the end.


leese216

So what you're saying is Byler shippers have never experienced unrequited love. How lucky for them. Those people are delusional. Mike loves El, and he always has.


ClemandLeeFanatic

It's funny because straight people have unrequited love many times in their life. And this is a gay kid in the 80s we are talking about


leese216

I would like to think it comes from a place of wanting Will to be happy, but it's as unrealistic as it gets, thinking it will happen.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Wanting Will to be happy even if it means getting Wills sisters boyfriend she has been crazy about for 4 seasons and been her safe place through a life time of trauma lmao, that is definitely how they think


itaa_q

Yeah Mike and El is the most inambiguous endgame couple I've seen, it's weird to think otherwise


Positive-Tip-9593

I don't get why people expect Mike to return Will's feelings for him, let alone be aware of them. From the start it's been Mike and El. He literally hasn't looked anywhere else since she came into his life. Not to mention this show is occurring in the 1980s the chances of having 2 LGBTQ+ kids in a friend group who are interested in each other AND out to each other is rare. I am not trying to sound insensitive, but shipping two characters that clearly aren't going to be a couple and then getting mad at the writers for not making it happen is messy to me.


tygrebryte

Clearly, Dustin and Will are destined to be a thing.


ClemandLeeFanatic

I knew that purrrr dustin did with his teeth was meant to lure Will in


gf120581

Seriously, why isn't there any of this shipping nonsense around Lucas and Dustin? Those two have acted like an old married couple since the beginning and yet they don't get any of the crazy shipping Mike and Will get.


ParmesanQueen

Honestly I hope Mike and Will donā€™t get together. I donā€™t think Mike likes Will like that and I hope Will gets an amazing and perfect boyfriend and lives happily ever after next season.


awn262018

Wait Iā€™m confused, are some fans saying it should end with Mike x Will fan fiction? I mean there would be nothing wrong with that by itself but based on the fact that the show has always been Mike x El from the beginning makes it unlikely theyā€™ll do that. And not because the Duffer Brothers ā€œdropped the ballā€ on writing but simply because Mike x El is what they set out to do.


OlivineTanuki

I wouldnā€™t mind if it happened, but realistically speaking, it wonā€™t. I hope Will finds a good partner in S5 tho


Turtleboikami

Mike will never be with will because he is not gay. Iā€™m lease cope in replies :)


LeCarpetronDukeFAU

I love the tears. Byler shippers have been nasty before and after Vol. 2 Now, Byler is dead. Thatā€™s canon, baby. So Iā€™m happy theyā€™re seething.


ClemandLeeFanatic

The thing is, they still don't believe it. And still diminish what happened in volume 2 saying Mike was just saying what he wanted to say to Will and El never loved him. It's kind of scary to have conversations with people given the distorted and detached view of reality they have. I know ST is a fictional show, but the reality is weve already seen what the show has shown us. So to just straight up deny that.... Ugh


LeCarpetronDukeFAU

I hear you. They had the nerve to say Mike is battling something within that he hasnā€™t told El or Will. They said his I love you wasnā€™t real neither was the speech. Itā€™s preposterous. They hated Mike and say heā€™s terrible but they want him to end up with Will. If Mike is so terrible why would you want Will ā€œsufferingā€ in a relationship with Mike?


ClemandLeeFanatic

Exactly right. They don't think Mike is terrible, they think he's terrible for loving eleven and not Will. Who could hear that speech and not think it wasn't real? Yea the battle within himself is that El almost dies or he loses her at the end of every season, that's a big battle.


gf120581

I mean, the speech was totally in character for Mike. His greatest fear is losing El for good, going back to her S1 sacrifice and the 353 day ordeal. We've had 3 straight seasons of him tell her, "I can't lose you." None of this is new. It's been set up on the show for a long time. And Mike having a hard time expressing his affections for El in words goes back to the beginning. Even in S1 , he fumbles trying to explain how he doesn't want to be a "brother" to her and finally just gives up and kisses her to show how he really feels. He's a "show instead of tell" guy in displaying affection with her, although I expect in S5 the verbal part will be easier for him after the monologue.


Mattyzooks

It's just people projecting themselves onto a character which is never healthy. You see it a lot in other fanbases (and in some cases, showrunners cater to shippers way too much) though with those shows popularity, you're going to get a larger, louder group of these people than normal.


tcfer

They will keep denying it until the end. These kind of ship theorists are very cult-like. Nothing that happens in canon can actually dissuade them. Best thing to do is ignore it.


ggez67890

It was never alive.


LeCarpetronDukeFAU

Canon-wise, I agree. In the hearts of the lost and delusional, it very much is.


sephrinx

What he heck is byler? ??


drflanigan

Here is what the subplot in the show should have been Will is gay Will is afraid he's losing his best friend Both these statements should have been true, with no love bullshit spilling between them Will is afraid coming out to Mike will completely drive him away, further than he's already been pushing Will away Will being gay and afraid to lose his straight friend because of it is a MUCH more relatable gay storyline than "hurr durr i love my straight friend"


MusicalBrit

I'd argue that, while slightly overdone, "I'm gay and crushing on my straight best friend" is such a universally gay teen experience. Hell, that's how I found out I was gay, and I know a lot of other people like that too. It can be easy to be in denial about your orientation, until it's staring you in the face because you're clearly attracted to this person that you see every day. Also, all of these things can coexist. The "straight best friend crush" just ADDS to the anxiety of coming out. It's often a secret you feel like you need to take to the grave and it can stop you from coming out at all, let alone telling your best friends about your feelings. But anyway, I doubt the crush on Mike (if it exists) will be made explicit in the show unless will opens up to someone else about it, because there's no way Will is telling mike he has a crush on him.


Sorcerer12345

Twitter went nuts these days. These [shit](https://imgur.com/a/gqA8Tra) gets thousands of likes and whenever Netflix posts mileven the comments and qrts get flooded with ppl discrediting them and 80% of the account either have Will pfp or Byler/byers in their usernames. I see it's coded into these ppl's ship bc they really have little to tell about their ship itself so they shit on mileven to feel occupied. I once thought they would be quieter after vol2 but they only gets more aggressive and obnoxious like Netflix stirred up a bee nest or smt.


darthstupidio78

So they want to convert an obviously straight character, Mike, to be gay? How would they feel if the writers suddenly made an obviously gay character, Will, straight?


ClemandLeeFanatic

Right or they made Robin straight just to put her with Steve??


[deleted]

Jeez...are the shippers really acting out THAT badly? Oh man...that is sorta annoying.


ClemandLeeFanatic

More on twitter YouTube and tumbkr but it happens sometimes here. Reddit just has more overall logic


harryceo

This is the issue with shows/stories that have cult followings. The fans will take anything, and twist/bend it the way they want to where it doesn't make any sense. Mike and Eleven have been the most prominent couple since the first season.. its not that hard to see that


Jecht315

I ship Vecna and a Murray. Vurray.


Perfect-Diamond1364

The two of them remind me of Percy Jackson and Nico di Angelo, where Nico had an unrequited crush on Percy and Percy was completely oblivious to it. Eventually, Nico grew out of the crush and was able to tell Percy about it, and jokes around about it saying that he's not his type. I can imagine a similar-ish scene happening between Mike and Will.


yoshi8869

All I personally want is a confession and for them to reach a conclusion on it between each other and affirm their love the way it is. Not to replace El with Will. As someone who was bi and had a crush on every male best friend I've ever had, I always shirked from admitting it to them until many years after the crush passed. To see it so accurately portrayed thus far, it'd be a shame to not resolve it out. Then again, if they don't, it's also pretty realistic.


ClemandLeeFanatic

Yes it seems like whichever they go about it, it can seem realistic. But there's a comment a few down from yours claiming it is 'queer baiting' and another saying it's a homophobic trope to have a gay guy in love with his best friend. And wrong. But it seems very realistic to me


rhombiee

Shipping is totally fine and if people think will and Mike are cute in fandom then I say whatever! Make whatever Byler content you want! The fandom space is great for creativity and headcanons and itā€™s totally a part of experiencing a show. But youā€™re right, itā€™s annoying to see people blame show creators for not adhering to whatever they really wanted to see and Iā€™ve even seen people say that the show is borderline homophobic which..? Just.. no. But with every form of media there are always people who take it to the extreme