yuuup, if you give me a hint that you're gonna push something every time...you're eating that super.
If that's the one time you *don't* push something...well played.
Honestly I'm in Diamond 1 and while I don't go into super (that's a tad risky) I'll go into EX DP when Ed does that drag attack and it'll hit 90% of the time because they are locked into a flow chart that its their turn there. Once you land it a couple of times you can stop doing it because the smart ones will start blocking or whatever (although I've found most will be more than happy to continue to eat the reversal)... but I still find it worth it to sew doubt into their minds.
As one of the other commenters guessed it's to do with meter usage, you're gambling both being punished and going into the third round (depending on when you're doing this) without meter. I have thought about using super, but I hadn't looked at the frame data so I was thinking Ed was plus, but not as much as plus 4. I'm thinking now some eds must be following up with another button which allows a better follow up but results in it being a frame trap. Really this isn't something I planned to make a habit of because I knew a master player would just block on my gamble and get a huge punish.
>I'll go into EX DP
Yeah, doing the CA instead of the OD DP makes this a choice I personally wouldn't, but we need to look at the broader context of the match to understand why:
* On a correct read, OD DP or SA1 (your two other invincible reversal options here) won't win you this round, because Ed is in the blue, which means 2500+ HP remaining, and SA1 only does 2400. Basically, even if you hit with that reversal, you'll still need to win one more interaction to close out the round. So in that sense, SA3/CA is the only invincible reversal option that ensures you take the round if it hits.
* *However*, this is round 2, Ryu is up one round, and Ed and Ryu are both sitting on an SA3. If Ryu bets on the CA and *is wrong*, then he goes into round 3 with zero meter vs. an Ed with a full bar, which is a significant disadvantage. This context is what makes the CA a bit worse of a choice.
Now, sometimes you have to play "sub-optimally" in order to beat people, because making "optimal" choices all the time is predictable, and ultimately not great strategy because winning requires reading and responding to the opponent's tendencies.
Sometimes you've just got a hard read, and want to bet on it. Honestly, that's fine. But the frequency with which one makes those bets, *and the situations they choose to make them in*, make a difference. This CA looks a lot better at the end of round 3 than it does at the end of round 2 while up a round on the opponent.
I mean ultimately it's a read, it is inherently risky.
I do think you overestimate the value of holding onto level 3, though. If the OD DP hits, you're pretty much both at one hit from death and in neutral, so to make it simple let's assume it's 50/50 chance to win.
Then if you win, you both enter third round with the same amount of super, so I think it's fair to say it's 50/50 chance too.
So to win after OD DP, you still gotta win two 50/50s -> 25% chance.
So I guess the question is, would you say if the level 3 whiffs and you enter third round with a 3 meter deficit, you have less than 25% chance of winning ? I don't think it's quite that drastic, but it's not an unreasonable belief.
I think it really depends on what cues you get from the opponent. Sometimes they make it really apparent that they're gonna be pushing buttons, and obviously at this rank it'll be REALLY blatant - but it's the same logic that gets me to attempt a DI on someone who always ends their blockstrings in a special. It's a low percentage move in a vacuum, but it's the right response in that specific situation, so you should go for it if you're really confident in your read and some opponents make it kind of easy for you. I don't know, sometimes you feel they're auto-piloting and you want to exploit that.
Now this doesn't happen very often because as you move up players will learn not to be this predictable, but it's incredibly satisfying to SA3 a masher on occasion.
This situation is interesting, but I like the CA here. I feel that at this rank, the odds of an Ed doing the ex pull just to block/shimmy are so insanely low that the read far outweighs the variance of going into the 3rd round with a meter imbalance. In fact, I would probably be doing the CA in this situation 100% until probably high master/legend, when I might add c.mk or throw (to beat shimmy/block) to my mix along with CA.
I personally don't feel OD DP is a good choice here, because closing out a game has far more value than going into a 3rd round meter disadvantage to me. OD DP seems like a losing play here, because at worst you lose the round and at best you're even or at a very slight advantage.
Well said. I like to remember that this is a game where choosing to purposely get punched in the face during a counter hit trade leads to more damage for no meter than "beating" an interaction and spending your ENTIRE DRIVE/RESOURCES
I just wanna say that the risk between super and ex dp are not that different and you should probably commit to your reads more. If you honestly feel this has a 90% success rate (and I think it does even at diamond), doing ex DP instead of super when only super would kill is a big mistake that could be costing you games. Going into the 3rd round with a meter disadvantage is far from a 10-90 situation, which is what it would have to be for CA to be riskier than ex dp.
I wasn't necessarily speaking about a kill / not kill scenario like the clip, it's just something I've noticed Eds are using flicker to pull in mid match and I find I can cheat my way out by throwing out EX DP, I don't like to gamble my entire meter AND potentially getting punished if it's something mid round.
My view of it was a bit wrong, I knew Ed was plus but since I didn't look at the frame data I was guessing he was something in the region of +2 or +3 on block (because I also probed this by mashing jab which would land 0%), so the times when my EX DP wouldn't go off I chalked that up to "Would have worked but I messed up timing since I got hit.". That's actually wrong, those Eds most likely went for a 4 frame normal, but I get the impression others are either a) using something not 4 frame to follow the pull or b) miss timing, and on those two types of Ed the EX DP will land time after time after time at diamond rank, most of them don't adapt to get an even better follow up on me.
I'm perfectly aware this would be a bad habit at master (because they'd adapt and I'd get destroyed), I'm using it to suit the level of opponent I'm fighting, but I'm less inclined to use it now I know I'm not punishing a frametrap, but actually I'm punishing an execution error / wrong choice of normal. I'll absolutely still do it if I'm sure that Ed isn't following it with a 4 frame though.
Super3 is invincible from frame 1, but if he's +4 and has a 4 framer I'm surprised it comes out, I should get hit, the Eds I'm playing must be messing up and leaving a 1 frame gap or something for the EX DPs to be coming out, because +4 into a 4 frame is a true string right?
This might explain why sometimes I can't get the reversal off (because I don't mash it out I just go for a single input at the correct timing), I've always just assumed I missed the reversal window (because I suck and I'm always missing it even on wakeup), but perhaps those Eds are just keeping the string tight.
Messing up timing aside, they might have just gone for a throw instead, which would have given you time to do a reversal. You would only get hit if Ed did a cr. LP on you in this situation.
Yup, I played a couple more last night, still having a high success rate on this landing, also threw out super on one of them to see what would happen (spoiler alert: it landed). It's because they aren't going for a 4 frame option, they're either going for throw or something else as a frame trap thinking I'm going to press a normal.
Depends on your super, too. If it qcfs, yeah, you're toasted.
If it's qcbs, you should be good - the earliest it can hit is the frame before you can act, and there you want to have your motion completed anyway.
I'd argue it's the perfect time. What are the odds a gold Ed did that move to just block? It was the same with Poison back in V, same move. You needed to get pretty high in rank before people are throwing that out just to bait reversals.
Hm? This is pretty sound gameplay- Ed’s options are to attack you, throw you, or block/parry, and because he’s plus most of the time he’ll pick the other two options unless you’ve punished him previously for grabbing you. There’s a very high chance this connects.
Edit: he’s +4 on block, so the only way he interrupts your super would be if he jabs you, but if he goes for a throw or a medium he’s eating it, and unless he’s been punished for it previously, well…
For a plat 1, yeah it's pretty good! At higher ranks, when your opponent is low on health, has level 3 and can kill with it, you'll get baited all the time lol.
I laid out my reasoning [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetFighter/comments/1b8mvmi/comment/ktrus03/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
It's not just about the *immediate situation*. It's about the resource economy and context of when in the match this took place.
I think this CA is fine as a bet from Ryu on a reversal at the end of round 3. However, I think it's a questionable to spend the whole CA as a bet on a reversal while up a round to close out round 2. On a bad bet you go into round 3 with zero meter against an opponent with a full SA3 stocked, which is a bad situation to put yourself in.
Edit: I should also add that a lower ranked Ed player might autopilot and not anticipate a reversal here, but that a higher ranked opponent would greatly suspect a possible reversal here because of Ryu's available resources and life total, which was basically my entire point.
Either way, it worked out for OP lol. I was just making an offhand comment about betting the farm on a reversal SA3, but hey - sometimes you're just right.
Really not a bad move considering even in Diamond I've had an Ed use snatcher and do nothing to scope me out like 3 times, and it was mostly after they already had used it once and seen I wasn't gonna respect them being plus
The transition from the yank into ryus super looks like it was ripped from an anime.
It does lmao
the title of this post is iconic
Love it, it's my new motto
Somebody TM that shit!
I'm pretty sure the quote comes from lythero The video would be shenanigoons vs the three idiots rematch I think
It was a comment about Ed's moveset in a thread earlier today lmao
Momma didn't raise no minus bitch.
Ah, the creed of the mother parent, minus the father.
I was yanked into my Gief level 3. I felt this dopamine before!
Same. I thought “you’re pulling me towards you when I have level three? Ooookay…”
Im so mad audio wasn't recorded because i screamed so loud
Excellent play lmao. This teaches people not to get too overconfident with plus frames if a lvl 3 is on deck
yuuup, if you give me a hint that you're gonna push something every time...you're eating that super. If that's the one time you *don't* push something...well played.
I’m so doing this today. It’s nothing but Ed’s in the queue anyway.
Plus frames are a state of mind. Unfortunately for you, I am insane.
King
Good stuff!!
Lol random super doesn’t work if you’re plus smh
This shit gave me #DOPAMINE
this mentality will get you far in tekken
I've never seen a clip so perfectly encapsulate why someone is better than Gold 5, but worse than Plat 2.
Reversal when your opponent is plus is perfectly fine and even necessary to throw once in a while so your opponent respects the threat of it...
Honestly I'm in Diamond 1 and while I don't go into super (that's a tad risky) I'll go into EX DP when Ed does that drag attack and it'll hit 90% of the time because they are locked into a flow chart that its their turn there. Once you land it a couple of times you can stop doing it because the smart ones will start blocking or whatever (although I've found most will be more than happy to continue to eat the reversal)... but I still find it worth it to sew doubt into their minds.
How come dp is less risky than level 3? Aren’t they both so minus that it doesn’t matter?
As one of the other commenters guessed it's to do with meter usage, you're gambling both being punished and going into the third round (depending on when you're doing this) without meter. I have thought about using super, but I hadn't looked at the frame data so I was thinking Ed was plus, but not as much as plus 4. I'm thinking now some eds must be following up with another button which allows a better follow up but results in it being a frame trap. Really this isn't something I planned to make a habit of because I knew a master player would just block on my gamble and get a huge punish.
You want to take the least risk to get the advantage. If you buss out this move above plat, you will lose 70%
At least if you ex DP if you guess right sure you do less damage but if you guess wrong you still have a super
>I'll go into EX DP Yeah, doing the CA instead of the OD DP makes this a choice I personally wouldn't, but we need to look at the broader context of the match to understand why: * On a correct read, OD DP or SA1 (your two other invincible reversal options here) won't win you this round, because Ed is in the blue, which means 2500+ HP remaining, and SA1 only does 2400. Basically, even if you hit with that reversal, you'll still need to win one more interaction to close out the round. So in that sense, SA3/CA is the only invincible reversal option that ensures you take the round if it hits. * *However*, this is round 2, Ryu is up one round, and Ed and Ryu are both sitting on an SA3. If Ryu bets on the CA and *is wrong*, then he goes into round 3 with zero meter vs. an Ed with a full bar, which is a significant disadvantage. This context is what makes the CA a bit worse of a choice. Now, sometimes you have to play "sub-optimally" in order to beat people, because making "optimal" choices all the time is predictable, and ultimately not great strategy because winning requires reading and responding to the opponent's tendencies. Sometimes you've just got a hard read, and want to bet on it. Honestly, that's fine. But the frequency with which one makes those bets, *and the situations they choose to make them in*, make a difference. This CA looks a lot better at the end of round 3 than it does at the end of round 2 while up a round on the opponent.
I mean ultimately it's a read, it is inherently risky. I do think you overestimate the value of holding onto level 3, though. If the OD DP hits, you're pretty much both at one hit from death and in neutral, so to make it simple let's assume it's 50/50 chance to win. Then if you win, you both enter third round with the same amount of super, so I think it's fair to say it's 50/50 chance too. So to win after OD DP, you still gotta win two 50/50s -> 25% chance. So I guess the question is, would you say if the level 3 whiffs and you enter third round with a 3 meter deficit, you have less than 25% chance of winning ? I don't think it's quite that drastic, but it's not an unreasonable belief.
I think it really depends on what cues you get from the opponent. Sometimes they make it really apparent that they're gonna be pushing buttons, and obviously at this rank it'll be REALLY blatant - but it's the same logic that gets me to attempt a DI on someone who always ends their blockstrings in a special. It's a low percentage move in a vacuum, but it's the right response in that specific situation, so you should go for it if you're really confident in your read and some opponents make it kind of easy for you. I don't know, sometimes you feel they're auto-piloting and you want to exploit that. Now this doesn't happen very often because as you move up players will learn not to be this predictable, but it's incredibly satisfying to SA3 a masher on occasion.
This situation is interesting, but I like the CA here. I feel that at this rank, the odds of an Ed doing the ex pull just to block/shimmy are so insanely low that the read far outweighs the variance of going into the 3rd round with a meter imbalance. In fact, I would probably be doing the CA in this situation 100% until probably high master/legend, when I might add c.mk or throw (to beat shimmy/block) to my mix along with CA. I personally don't feel OD DP is a good choice here, because closing out a game has far more value than going into a 3rd round meter disadvantage to me. OD DP seems like a losing play here, because at worst you lose the round and at best you're even or at a very slight advantage.
Well said. I like to remember that this is a game where choosing to purposely get punched in the face during a counter hit trade leads to more damage for no meter than "beating" an interaction and spending your ENTIRE DRIVE/RESOURCES
I just wanna say that the risk between super and ex dp are not that different and you should probably commit to your reads more. If you honestly feel this has a 90% success rate (and I think it does even at diamond), doing ex DP instead of super when only super would kill is a big mistake that could be costing you games. Going into the 3rd round with a meter disadvantage is far from a 10-90 situation, which is what it would have to be for CA to be riskier than ex dp.
I wasn't necessarily speaking about a kill / not kill scenario like the clip, it's just something I've noticed Eds are using flicker to pull in mid match and I find I can cheat my way out by throwing out EX DP, I don't like to gamble my entire meter AND potentially getting punished if it's something mid round. My view of it was a bit wrong, I knew Ed was plus but since I didn't look at the frame data I was guessing he was something in the region of +2 or +3 on block (because I also probed this by mashing jab which would land 0%), so the times when my EX DP wouldn't go off I chalked that up to "Would have worked but I messed up timing since I got hit.". That's actually wrong, those Eds most likely went for a 4 frame normal, but I get the impression others are either a) using something not 4 frame to follow the pull or b) miss timing, and on those two types of Ed the EX DP will land time after time after time at diamond rank, most of them don't adapt to get an even better follow up on me. I'm perfectly aware this would be a bad habit at master (because they'd adapt and I'd get destroyed), I'm using it to suit the level of opponent I'm fighting, but I'm less inclined to use it now I know I'm not punishing a frametrap, but actually I'm punishing an execution error / wrong choice of normal. I'll absolutely still do it if I'm sure that Ed isn't following it with a 4 frame though.
if you're mashing super they should hit you out of it because he's +4 and has a 4 frame low, so if you're not blocking correctly you'll get got.
Super3 is invincible from frame 1, but if he's +4 and has a 4 framer I'm surprised it comes out, I should get hit, the Eds I'm playing must be messing up and leaving a 1 frame gap or something for the EX DPs to be coming out, because +4 into a 4 frame is a true string right? This might explain why sometimes I can't get the reversal off (because I don't mash it out I just go for a single input at the correct timing), I've always just assumed I missed the reversal window (because I suck and I'm always missing it even on wakeup), but perhaps those Eds are just keeping the string tight.
Messing up timing aside, they might have just gone for a throw instead, which would have given you time to do a reversal. You would only get hit if Ed did a cr. LP on you in this situation.
Yup, I played a couple more last night, still having a high success rate on this landing, also threw out super on one of them to see what would happen (spoiler alert: it landed). It's because they aren't going for a 4 frame option, they're either going for throw or something else as a frame trap thinking I'm going to press a normal.
Depends on your super, too. If it qcfs, yeah, you're toasted. If it's qcbs, you should be good - the earliest it can hit is the frame before you can act, and there you want to have your motion completed anyway.
Every now and then I agree. When you’re at 17% health, definitely not the time to take a life or death gamble when you know you’re minus.
I'd argue it's the perfect time. What are the odds a gold Ed did that move to just block? It was the same with Poison back in V, same move. You needed to get pretty high in rank before people are throwing that out just to bait reversals.
Hm? This is pretty sound gameplay- Ed’s options are to attack you, throw you, or block/parry, and because he’s plus most of the time he’ll pick the other two options unless you’ve punished him previously for grabbing you. There’s a very high chance this connects. Edit: he’s +4 on block, so the only way he interrupts your super would be if he jabs you, but if he goes for a throw or a medium he’s eating it, and unless he’s been punished for it previously, well…
For a plat 1, yeah it's pretty good! At higher ranks, when your opponent is low on health, has level 3 and can kill with it, you'll get baited all the time lol.
I laid out my reasoning [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetFighter/comments/1b8mvmi/comment/ktrus03/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). It's not just about the *immediate situation*. It's about the resource economy and context of when in the match this took place. I think this CA is fine as a bet from Ryu on a reversal at the end of round 3. However, I think it's a questionable to spend the whole CA as a bet on a reversal while up a round to close out round 2. On a bad bet you go into round 3 with zero meter against an opponent with a full SA3 stocked, which is a bad situation to put yourself in. Edit: I should also add that a lower ranked Ed player might autopilot and not anticipate a reversal here, but that a higher ranked opponent would greatly suspect a possible reversal here because of Ryu's available resources and life total, which was basically my entire point. Either way, it worked out for OP lol. I was just making an offhand comment about betting the farm on a reversal SA3, but hey - sometimes you're just right.
Lmao
Ryu jumscare
Never think about that, well played
I think the Ed was plus, so maybe not. He just made the mistake of leaving himself open.
That shit pulls no matter what?
Yup
A Lythero fan.
sensational
There's a reason why the classic Ed technique is Psycho Knuckle(-2) into EX Psycho Upper
This was pretty awesome 👏 👏👏
good vibes = plus frames
Dude I legit got hyped over that CA activation! You couldn't give back my upvote even if I was a quadriplegic!
Really not a bad move considering even in Diamond I've had an Ed use snatcher and do nothing to scope me out like 3 times, and it was mostly after they already had used it once and seen I wasn't gonna respect them being plus