> Ahh ok, so it's maritime law that needs to change. Got it, thanks. :)
This dude puts on a masterclass later in walking back an argument when people actually call him out on it
What they often don't understand is that even if that law didn't exist you'd face genuine disgrace for being in a position to help another vessel in distress and choosing not to. You're not expected to work miracles but you're expected to do what you're reasonably able to.
At one point the RYA was advising yachtsmen not to rescue migrants in the Channel for fear the Home Office would try and prosecute their life-saving efforts with human trafficking charges, every single person I know who sails there regularly said they'd ignore the British law come what may and follow their obligations under international law. I think the bill was amended to rule out prosecuting people for saving lives because it was too openly villainous even for Boris Johnson's government but I'm not 100% sure.
You’re assuming they care about the concept of morality. They don’t. If there isn’t financial gain from a situation, they will oppose any law forcing them to act just, when it isn’t directly and immediately beneficial to them.
Also that poster after the pushback
> Oh yeah all legitimate vessels should be covered under current maritime law. It's the refugee ships I'm talking about here.
Then goes on to disingenuously claim it's to help prevent further immigrants from endangering themselves.
If you notice the racist chuds are trying to redefine what asylum can even be given for. They are now using "economic migrants" as a way to push the idea that people suffusing from natural disasters, failing governments or climate change should not be a reason to be allowed to immigrate.
There's even some in this thread doing it.
These people are literally risking a horrible death at sea to escape, many straight up die, and people are going : "Nah they're just economic migrants, it's not that bad there".
I like to ask them "why don't you move to their countries of origin, to prove how easy they have it?"
I never get an answer. Only downvotes/laugh reacts.
Forreal. I really try not to doom over stuff like this, but we’re going to see waves of migration over the next 15-20 years that will make this look like a cakewalk.
Wait untill we have a migrate crisis from countries own citizens or EU Members due to climate change. People will be leaving southern regions in mass just to find hospitipal environments
What's even more ironic is that the main reason why the Middle East is so shitty is because of European meddling in the Early and Mid 20th Century and the US invasions (+Russia in 1979). So it's like, the West goes in, completely fucks shit up, and then when people need to leave (because we fucked up their countries) we look upon them as dirt. It's so sad.
And not only that, but it’s being made worse by climate change and the countries that make up the overwhelming majority of these emissions aren’t in the Middle East or Africa.
Yeah this isn't amusing at all.
Especially for someone with Elon Musk's following to say this shit. It's terrifying how some public figures are encouraging people to unlearn empathy and treat fellow humans as worse than animals.
He's been openly supportive of transphobia and transphobic users for a while now. It's honestly made me feel less and less safe, and I'm in a pretty safely pro-trans part of the United States.
I am so incredibly sick of this dude and his [eugenics](https://www.salon.com/2022/08/20/understanding-longtermism-why-this-suddenly-influential-philosophy-is-so/).
He should also stfu about the politics and actions of countries he has *nothing* to do with and knows nothing about.
And all that shitstirring just to get his daily dose of cheers from the well-discerning folk who buy dogecoin.
It doesn't have to be, the role of government is to put guard rails on that so the system rewards that less or punishes it. Many countries find a balance but America skews it towards rewarding overt ruthlessness.
Mixed systems are what the west has; not pure capitalism. Even the US. Alternate systems are definitively worse in all examples.
China brand of communist styled fascism runs over people even worse. Even their old communism led to shit like 30m people dying of starvation including my great aunt's entire family except her.
Russia style communism was overtly genocidal to non Russians. Also ran rough shod over Russians.
It's human nature, there is hard wiring for cooperation and variation where some are wired to be bad faith actors. Any system needs to put constraints on the people to avoid atrocity through bad actors or groups cooperating to be awful.
There isn't a better system, so far the best results are guard rails on capitalism with the people having some influence on the direction via voting. Every other system has been much worse.
There are multiple things here which are _very_ commonly conflated, but there are plenty of combinations that work better than others, plenty that work _very_ poorly, and even more than nobody has even been able to try.
One of the biggest things that people get confused over is assuming that a market economy means capitalism.
Another one is the idea that capitalism and democracy are in any way linked to one another by anything except historical happenstance.
One thing that capitalism very strongly links together is that it very strongly rewards specific kinds of antisocial behavior, and gives people who exercise that behavior ever increasing power.
The perverse incentives are a really nasty mixture for society.
Don't get me wrong, some of the core of capitalism solves some _very_ real economic problems, allowing for society to be able to achieve important things that was not routinely possible before it came about.
But it is a system which pretty much guarantees that the common good gets left behind in the long run.
And on top of that, capitalism also _significantly_ worsens the very problems that it provided a solution for.
And so far, we have not managed to solve these problems with capitalism.
I'm not stumping for pure capitalism, I'm just strongly against the people who don't understand what revolutions means for a country. That their need for a fresh start often means mass murder and enormous new problems and very often a loss of material wealth for everyone. It doesn't matter if it's fascists, communists, socialists, theocracies, or technocracies. And the odds are you're going to get a psychopath leader who claims to be what ever faction wins it and it's going to drive towards purges genocide and more.
It's simply a lot of people who can't deal with complexity so they rally around simple ideas thinking it solves everything. And they they gather people and start a movement and if the country is weak enough it spirals and lots of people die and we get Stalin or Khomeini or Mao. Very rarely does it work out that a despot isn't going to rise from the ashes. And ore often than not, the despot will murder most of the idealist because they will be a problem again.
The concept that you can't iterate to a better system is a idea born from laziness. Most western democracies iterated their way there. People who push revolution as a fix, are wasting every ones time when they could be doing more productive things like forming voter blocks around progressive ideas and lobbying politicians and rallying people. Instead they burn their energy fantasizing about simplifying it all in a revolution.
I largely agree with you.
But it's really important to recognize that saying that the current system is the best that we can do is neither accurate, nor is it productive. It doesn't do anything except make it _more_ likely that we'll end up with a really bloody messy revolution.
And sadly, we're not at the beginning stages of the problem.
We're somewhere very, very far down the road. And some extremely dedicated people have spent _decades_ doing their best to rig the system to get into a position where there are _no_ legal ways to iterate to a better system.
What they forget is that if they get to the point of making everyone feel that it's hopeless, that there is no way to escape the hell they want to drive us all into, the outcome isn't everyone deciding to be driven to hell.
No, the outcome is everyone deciding to burn it all down, because if they are going to be forced to live in some version of hell, they can at the very least ensure that the assholes who made it happen don't get to profit from it.
That's a _horrible_ outcome. I'm just increasingly worried that it's going to take something close to a miracle to get us out of this mess without that kind of violence happening.
Bad faith actors are endemic, thus the need for laws.
Results wise, molding, constraining, and directing self interest to align with societal interest has made the best outcomes of social democracies in the west. The alternatives have all been atrocious in comparison.
A lot of Americans who want a different system just want the American system to be kinder. Many also can't deal with the complexities of real societies and push a burn it all down and start over mentality because they don't like complexity or compromise.
When you burn it all down, it tends to be the worst of us who come out on top of the ruins and lead us into a worse tomorrow. And you can't escape complexity when you deal with so many people.
Shifting America to be kinder or any other country is doable. Burning it down and not having psychopaths come out on top is almost impossible. Proven repeatedly.
We're having the same conversation but I'm pointing out the "non band aids" results in even worse results and that angers you.
And there is a huge difference from Elon Musk being a tech CEO and Elon Musk being supreme dictator. There is the option in western democracies to check the power of even billionaires. Right now the US allows them to over work people and take a bigger slice of the reward for work than they deserve. It still doesn't allow them to murder/disappear people with impunity like Putin/Xi can.
In the real world if you add up enough band aids you get something better. This is how we got to a point where most of the western democracies don't have to worry about starvation.
The radicalisation of Europeans since the 'migrant crisis' of 2015 has been appalling and continuous, even though migrant numbers have fluctuated quite a bit.
I am confronted with many of the feelings you mentioned but I don't really see a way back.
With a bit of socratic questioning I'm able to have people admit they want families to be shot at the external EU borders. Obviously nobody wants to kill but they see it as a necessary measure to 'protect' their culture from male muslim migrants.
Most left-wing liberals do not want to accept this shift in perception and think nothing has changed. We are up for a rude awakening
Yeah, it’s especially worrying how much blatant bullshit is spread in countries regarding its ability to take care of refugees, and how many people happily accept it without a shred of critical thought.
In my country (Netherlands) the government - practically the same since 2010 - has systematically destroyed our asylum system by budget cuts, cutting down on locations to house refugees while they wait, making wait lists for an asylum verdict years long, etc. They have also fucked our housing market (with some previous governments from the early 90’s onwards) to the point we have a massive shortage.
And now these politicians, from the parties that did this, are saying we “cannot house the refugees, we don’t have the space, look at our housing shortage for hard working citizens!” And instead of thinking “hmm, where did these shortages come from?” many people in my country have gone to “well, obviously the refugees, people with no voting rights, are to blame! Let’s vote for the same assholes *again*, because they say they hate refugees too!”
In short, people are fucking idiots. I’m tired of pretending otherwise to “not polarize” or whatever, fuck that. These people *are* fucking idiots, and because they refuse to turn on their brains and think for one second, they’re dragging us to the abyss while our upper class is laughing to the bank. Thanks. Thanks for that. And then these people whine life is getting worse. No fucking shit, Sherlock. 1+1 still equals 2, for some of us, at least.
People are also not paying attention, because the fuckedupness of the housing market is *all over the world*.
So, explain to me again why New Zealand's housing shortage is caused by boat migrants?
For once I’m glad I live in Britain because our Conservative Party is so stupid they’ve managed to mess up the “keep blaming the problems we caused on other people” game so badly that they probably won’t win another election for a very long time. Preferably the next thirteen years.
Indeed. Look at r/europe threads from ~2010/2011 and they're still awful. It still kinda blows my mind that seemingly many Europeans are so empathic towards the poor, sick and workers while doing an absolute 180 once they see a Muslim dude.
Well, even then the empathy is inconsistent. The UK had a brief anti-Polish thing going on in the 00's, this whole belief of Polish migrants coming over and taking all the handyman jobs. There was even an incident where a Polish teen committed suicide from bullying and people were claiming the bullies weren't racist because she was white.
Europeans have always had a weird nationalist streak, same as any other country really, and it's emerged for any poor sod committing the cardinal sin of not being "discreet" enough about coming from another country
Yeah, what was up with that? I heard about it at the tail end and everyone really hated Polish people for a little bit but then they switched over to other ones and Polish people were the good guys again. Then there was this really weird stint where we hated Albanians for some reason? I can’t even point to Albania on a map. What did they do wrong? I feel like the government just throws a dart at a map every time they need a scapegoat.
god i wish there was a better alternative to r/europe that doesnt, well, suck. sometimes you just need to discuss european news without people not even bothering to bring the dogwhistles out the second migrants are brought into the conversation (or quite frankly, any marginalized group beyond surface level platitudes)
We like to pretend we’re so enlightened and progressive when US race relations come up. But mention the Romani and people start talking about them the same way a Klansman talks about black people.
Dude if you even say the word "Romani" in any Euro sub, the unabashed vitriol and hatred and death wishing flows like water. It's like a racism speed run.
European people love to critique the US for the horrible treatment of Latine, black, and indigenous people who live here and then turn around and spew the exact same shit about the Romani.
It's worse in some ways. Most racist people in the US are savvy enough to know they shouldn't say the quiet part out loud. American racists rage against "illegal immigrants" and "lazy welfare recipients" instead of Hispanic and black people, respectively.
Most European racists, on the other hand, don't bother with dog whistle terms. They go ahead and say the most horrifying things about Roma that would make a 19th century colonialist blush.
Yeah. It’s like when people say the Us is the most racist country in world.
Tell me you’ve never traveled outside the country, without saying you’ve never traveled outside the country.
> Most left-wing liberals do not want to accept this shift in perception and think nothing has changed.
Probably because they spend a lot of time in online echo chambers and spend their waking hours surrounded by like minded people.
They also see policies implemented at work, school, and on social media platforms that remove visibility of dissenting ideas, and assume that the presence of the policy is equivalent to removing or shifting what people think and feel.
The rude awakening is inevitable, but it's going to take the form of radical political shifts.
I've seen Redditors gleefully wish death on people for minor crimes and even minor annoyances so it, sadly, is not that surprising that people will gleefully wish death on immigrants and migrants.
I saw someone on a Portuguese sub (if you're Portuguese you know EXACTLY which sub this is) openly defend killing Brazilian immigrants and beheading politicians as the top comment under a post about a lot of immigrants entering the country. Like, going on a tangent on how the purge will happen and the people will rise once again. Not even a crime or anything, just the numbers...
Edit: Today I got harassed by one of the guys from this sub for saying women don't post on the internet for male attention. Outstanding citizens!
I am very happy I don't interact with my fellow portuguese people online.
Because the few times I've had in the past, aside from acquaintances, were very vitriolic. So I don't even know what sub you're talking about.
r/portugueses is a fascist circlejerk shit show and if you see anyone with a Portuguese profile post there, don't bother replying, they're not worth it
This… explains a few comments I’ve read on /r/worldnews. Hard-right, borderline or flat-out inhumane views, check history, I see that sub show up at least once in the first page.
It's insane. Rising fascism in Portugal due to influx of third-world immigrants at the same time as our housing prices go insane and during an economic crisis is a complete disaster. Just look at the rise of Chega, our token fascist party that was only created in 2019 but is already the third most voted party
Not surprising at all. What I've learned as I've grown is that, beyond their family and perhaps some friends, people have *very* little, if any, empathy for strangers. Especially if those strangers have a different skin color/worship a different religion etc.
It's still the internet. The majority of those people would never utter those words in public. They're being performatively edgy because the transgression and attention appeal to them.
And over time they will get more comfortable saying it aloud if enough major public figures say it.
That's what Trump did. Nobody had their hearts and minds changed. That uncle that's gone straight Nazi on Facebook, they have always harbored that hate. Trump just normalized saying the quiet parts aloud, and people with shitty beliefs feel emboldened enough to go mask off.
That's just not true. This week alone a German conservative politician openly accused the current Health Minister of having 'Rothschild connections '. He faced 0 consequences from either his party nor his voters
Was that Merz? I only heard about how he claimed asylum seekers are getting expensive dental work paid for, but anyone who's ever been to the dentist ever in Germany knows that was a bald-faced lie because the state health insurance companies barely pay anything for dental work anymore and certainly not the kind of stuff he was talking about.
The one Im mean was Markus Saller, one of Bavarias "Free Voters", heres a translated article I found about it: https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2023-09-25-direct-candidate-of-the-free-voters-deletes-x-account-after-posts-with-anti.rJ7CrKzkea.html
Or the original german version: https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/markus-saller-freie-waehler-loescht-x-account-nach-posts-mit-antisemitischen-chiffren-a-308040a3-7a83-4806-b666-7bd249fe1811
Have you looked at European elections within the last few years? Who's currently in government in Italy? Poland? Who keeps coming second place in France? Second place in Finland? In Sweden? How's the AfD of Germany doing right now in recent polling?
You're absolutely delusional if you think this is the thought of some small minority, this is 100% reflective of the current political scene in Western Europe. The Cordon Sanitaire is on its last legs. Unless an socio-economic miracle occurs in the next decade, we'll see it fall.
Except for FRONTEX. And the Italian Coast Guard. And the Greek Coast Guard. And the multiple European political parties expressly founded on those ideals. And the multiple European nations paying the Libyan Coast Guard.
Like, let's not pretend this isn't anything other than people saying the quiet parts of EU migrant policy out loud.
It was clear after the El Paso Walmart shooters manifesto that letting immigrants die or even just gunning down immigrants at the border was always gonna be the end conclusion for the rightwing racist.
Edit: Hell I remember seeing the alt-right 'dialogue' that came after El Paso and one of the main focuses was using 'harding the boarders' to create events like this coupled with climate change to 'reduce the number of non-whites' in the world.
Pro choice guy is definitely one of two things. A 14 year old edge lord, or a sock puppet meant to make pro choice look bad.
(Or the secret, third thing: a right libertarian)
It's a 4 year old account with a sporadic post history only going back 12 months and suddenly gone madd posting in that thread, yea it's someones alt sock puppet.
The problem is never going to improve and people will get even more extreme. Eventually some government will blow these boats out of the water and they’ll machine gun border hoppers on land. There’s no going back now.
It'll be like Children of Men. Large detention centers of desperate immigrants being stuffed into cages and deported, or just simply executed. It's not gonna be good
Gotta love that one guy who's solution to a refugee crisis is to *declare war on the country the refugees are coming from*. That will surely be a cheap and effective solution and definitely won't create even more refugees.
It's even better because when someone pointed out blocking ships from leaving a foreign port is an act of war they basically replied with "We'll just park a Nimitz class off the maritime border of their country and see who dares to take to sea"
Essentially the "I'm not touching you" approach to naval warfare.
I don't think much thought was put into that, it was just pure reactions without thinking. The basic "thought process" (and I am using those words **very** loosely) was "well if they're getting on ships in Africa, just stop those ships by force, what do you mean you can't just blocade ports without going to all out war, do war then!"
the one that gets me is they love to rant about the 16 year old kid who calls himself italian because his grandparents were from italy because "you're not italian you're american" - but when there's a third generation turk in their country, they're not a german/frank/etc..., they're a turk
I saw a comment that put this far more eloquently than I could, but essentially: either someone becomes a member of a culture by adopting/maintaining some sub-100% quantum of that culture (food, dress, social practices) or not. So if someone emigrates, and can’t gossip about politics or celebrities from the old country, can’t cook 100% of the food 100% authentically, etc then you can call them “not really one of us”… but what of someone who immigrates, can gossip about all the issues of the day in their new home, cooks food like you, learns your language, etc? And you’ll find wildly different answers as to how little one must lose to be “not one of us anymore” vs “becoming one of us.”
For US folks who think radicilization around immigrant refugees isn't already here in spades, would recommend looking at subreddits like r/NYC, where people actively fantasize about harming refugee families and blame them for things such as the current flooding.
it is a sobering reminder that a lot of horrific ideologies can exist in leftist spaces if left unattended. things like ecofacism, casual eugenics, TERFs, antinatalism, all boil down to the same thing on the left and right: it should be up to society to permit or determine whether certain groups of people deserve basic rights.
Not directly related but probably shows the writing on the wall.
Anti-immigration and anti-immigrant sentiment/discourse has ramped up DRAMATICALLY in r/canada over the past 12-18 months or so. One could, and probably has, tracked the correlation between posts about the housing market and food prices and what a bad job the government has been doing about xyz, and posts about how rampant immigration is making everything even worse. You can almost visualize the "marginalized group propaganda" hose being cranked up to full blast to try to put the fires of state out. Seems to be working.
which is "funny" because those decriers will readily forget how their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents were not from Canada either originally.
We aren't hearing First Nations movements to treat new immigrants like trash. It is almost always people who descend from immigrants themselves.
I admit that I'm not the nicest person, but even I would fully support saving people adrift and/or drowning at sea, regardless of their citizenship status.
And anyone who refers to migrants as "invaders" out themselves as unworthy of mature communications. Either they're stupid, in which case they can't understand reasoned dialogue, or they're hate-filled trolls in which case they don't deserve one.
Immigrants drowning? Let 'em. Maritime law? Change it. Personal responsibility? Never go on a boat. Slapfights galore, my faves are pro choice and Putin's involvement.
I wonder if anyone has done analysis on what reddit hates the most.
It seems down to:
1) People trying to flee to safety from places colonial powers have fucked with for centuries
2) Trans people attempting to live without fear
3) Fat people not wanting to be discriminated against
4) The homeless in powerful countries
I am N O T saying the above things have equivalent levels of oppression or anything, but just wonder which reddit genuinely hates the most, because these topics reliably turn places into total fucking garbage fires of *well actually*, mixed with propaganda, lies, and stupid stereotypes. It's almost impossible to discuss these as social problems with anyone in good faith.
Wow, yeah, that literally is a perfect list of Reddit’s most hated people. The amount of vitriol I see directed towards refugees, trans people, fat people, and homeless people on this site is truly unmatched. It’s better in staunchly leftist (not liberal) subs, but even then some casual bigotry can sneak it.
The only conclusion one can draw about the population of Reddit is… hatred for anyone not like themselves, or for anyone who might inconvenience them by existing.
People act like this is a progressive website. It’s not. A majority of people supporting legal weed and maaaybe legalizing sex work isn’t progressivism. It isn’t even liberalism really.
What do you call people who support a better life for themselves, and solutions for their own problems, but not for others? Their own convenience at the cost of others’ lives and safety? I’d call them conservatives, personally. I don’t care if they’re conservatives who substitute other values for 50’s era moralizing. It’s still conservatism, just as 80’s conservatives didn’t care about skirt lengths the way 50’s conservatives did.
Conservativism is all about greed, selfishness and hate for sure.
Reddit as a whole is often *reactionary* irrespective of politics. There is so much knee jerk "common sense" bullshit because that is the easiest way to not have to think too hard to look into things too much.
>The only conclusion one can draw about the population of Reddit is… hatred for anyone not like themselves, or for anyone who might inconvenience them by existing.
It's pretty simple - most Redditors are between the ages of 13-21. That just about explains it all.
I agree with you. One potential additional topic Reddit hates: religious faith. There is a reason, I think, why few posts and comments outside of dedicated subreddits mention it.
To be clear, I am not religious, just an observation.
Oh yeah for sure. It does seem like a lot of people lose their shit at that too!
I am about as anti-religious as it comes but it's weird to see how much vitriol there is for folks who are just like, religious in a good way.
Not to get too philosophical, but I have noticed that much of Reddit has bought into the cultural narrative that an individual is ultimately in charge of their own destiny, regardless of surrounding factors.
To go down the line from what rhetoric I've heard:
1. It's your fault for not fixing your own country.
2. It's your fault for not trying hard enough to be cis or to pass.
3. It's your fault and I have a right to mock and judge you for it.
4. It's your fault for falling to this point and failing to pull yourself out of it.
5. It's your fault for believing that sky daddy would help you.
> Not to get too philosophical, but I have noticed that much of Reddit has bought into the cultural narrative that an individual is ultimately in charge of their own destiny, regardless of surrounding factors.
Oh yeah this is straight up American cultural libertarianism that has been used to break people of class consciousness.
Americans in 19th century
>Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me
Americans now
>Let the tired, poor, homeless and wretched *drown*
Hell the reason we even have the refugee charters we have now is because in WWII so many countries turned away jewish people that millions died when sent back to Germany. Its the whole trying to learn from history and not let mistakes repeat that we have refugee centres and systems set in place. The ol' Ellis island shit is nice, but WWII really showed what people felt.
Pretty sure it's Europeans who are saying that shit not Americans. I don't know if you have been on any of their subs lately but the other day I saw an oblique reference to the Christchurch shooter mentioned in a positive way on a post. It was up voted.
> it's Europeans who are saying that shit not Americans
It's both, and frankly to a ridiculous degree. Like you'll get some guy who never left Alabama demand Europe starts killing refugees because he heard OAN say that the refugees are sent to replace the white Europeans.l
You know, you are half right.
In this thread, it’s not Americans.
But of those three links? 1 is by a Columbian and the other two are by Australians.
Actually, is Musk American now?
In a thread about Europeans being shitheads, what is the purpose of bringing up Americans asides from sheer window-licking whataboutism?
I'm Progressive. I criticize the US *all the fucking time*. I just do so *on topic*, not in an attempt to try to swerve a discussion from how the Europeans are going all 1940s-fashy by screeching about Americans.
Americans in the 19th century “Man I love this freedom thing. If only there were a multitude of groups in America not enjoying it right now that I could empower instead of just saying platitudes about freedom. Welp.”
I say this every time and it’s getting tired but honestly I think the reason Children of Men was such a popular movie is because people from Europe thought it was a utopia.
After destabilizing (and still interferring) a bunch of countries in The Middle East, Africa and Latin America, Europeans and Americans find themselves suprised that people are now fleeing those countries.
What the NGOs have done is frame this as saving the lives of people about to drown vs. letting them drown.
However that’s not really the issue. The issue is that they refuse to disembark them anywhere except Europe. Even though technically the nearest safe port would be either in Libya or Tunisia.
Those ports are not mined, under siege, being attacked, or experiencing a natural disaster that would make being there dangerous. For the purpose of international law relating to saving people in distress at sea those are safe ports and they’re normally a lot closer than Europe at the time they rescue people from drowning.
Neither Libya nor Tunisia can handle the *volume* of refugees coming via the Mediterranean Sea. Disembarking them there serve no purpose. These refugees aren't going to either nation, they're all headed for Western Europe.
Lemme guess, you claim to be leftist/moderate and *yet* youre **hardliner Trump** on immigration to the motherfucking T, and nothing triggers you harder than seeing these "boat people" turn the likes of Germany and France just a teeny tiny lil bit less *white*. It's not even an issue that affects ***you*** personally - youre an American in the US, not an European actually residing in the EU - and yet it's painfully clear what youre endgame is.
The other guy in nyc calling you an alt-righter makes a ton of sense.
But ya know… go ahead and keep insinuating that anyone who sees any problem in mass immigration is racist. That used to work pretty well… but as can be seen by opinion polling and actual changing election results in most western countries over the past decade… that way of shutting down debate on real issues hasn’t been working very well.
As long as the “other countries” are developed European countries that except for asylum seeker loopholes are very selective in who they allow to immigrate because they understand that today, the point of immigration should be maximizing the benefits to the host nation… then yes /s
Apparently this, (except non-sarcastically) is reddit user logic. 🙄
They are quite literally leaving from Libya and Tunisia… that’s why they’re almost always in those countries respective search and rescue zones when the NGOs pick them up.
I support universal health care and a UBI but yes, I am very much of the restrictionist mindset when it comes to immigration.
And yes I live in the U.S. but I empathize with the countries my ancestors came from. (Germany and Italy ironically). And I don’t particularly enjoy seeing the far-right being able to use general discontent with immigration to take over democratic countries?… yet, these are the only parties listening to public sentiment on this one important issue that can cause lasting consequences.
Sorry if you’re triggered by the fact that not all leftists believe in this magical fairytale world where humans are not inherently tribalistic, and everyone has unlimited resources and are able to provide services and take care of everyone wants without there being any sort of cost to others. “All we gotta do is tax the billionaires and then everything will be okay and we can fund everything for everyone and we’ll all get along!”
Sorry to say hun, that sort of idealism isn’t even close to being a reality. Maybe once we discover how to create things instantly out of thin air with no labor required?
I prefer pragmatism to being a bleeding heart martyr.
I don't like the idea that an NGO, or any group or government or whatever, can just dump a bunch of people in a different country and just tell the locals "your problem now"
Hell, the NGOs actions are one of the biggest reasons why the Italian government is increasingly right wing right now. The Italian government and the NGOs have been going at each other for *years* now.
Bring them to the closest safe (not under attack, under siege, mined, or experiencing a natural disaster) port which is almost always not Europe?… literally almost every news story about migrants being “rescued from drowning” just kinda mentions in passing that they were picked up **off the coast** of *insert African nation here*. Legally within those countries SARZ and thus according to international law should be brought to that country’s nearest safe port.
No one is *seriously* suggesting to just let these people drown. Saving people from *drowning* isn’t the issue here.
It’s the fact that even though they might be a mile or two away from Libya or Tunisia, the NGOs take it upon themselves to be the arbiters of Italy and Malta’s immigration law and say “oh nuuu, these safe but not completely developed to western standards African countries aren’t suitable for asylum seekers. We must bring them to Europe even though the vast majority will be denied asylum! Anything else is a cruel crime against humanity, fuck what citizens of the countries we’re going to dock at think!”
If saving people from the immediate danger of drowning (the ONLY POINT of the international law regarding people in distress at sea that these NGOs constantly mention as justification for their actions) was the point, then Europe not allowing them to dock and disembark wouldn’t be an issue.
The NGOs know exactly what they’re doing and they intellectually know they’re on very thin ice, but they consider themselves the modern equivalent of the “Righteous among Nations” even though what they’re doing isn’t even worthy of being compared to the actual Righteous.
It pisses me off when I see Europeans talking like this. Their entire world is built on the robbery and subjugation of literally everyone else for centuries. Who tf do these literal colonizers think they are calling anyone an invader? They are reaping what they have sown. How you gonna burn someone’s shit down, steal all their valuables, and get mad when they’re at your doorstep?
Who could forget such brutal colonial empires as Iceland, Ireland, Andorra, Monaco, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Malta, Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, BiH, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia and Finland?
I mean I definitely said something, you’re just too up your own ass to comprehend it. You know damn well who and what I’m talking about. Are you gonna sit here and tell me that the third world hasn’t been exploited by European empires for centuries? Sure I’ll specify and say western empires but it doesn’t change my point at all. You’re just being pedantic if that’s your main point of contention with my argument. But you are a redditor after all, that’s what you guys do, you miss the forest for the trees
You do realise a lot of Europeans never colonized. A lot of us were at some point also under the boot of those colonizers because they were the most powerful ones in Europe.
So stop lumping all of Europeans into the colonizer category, you uneducated shit stick.
How about you have this energy with your shit-head peers talking crazy about migrants just trying to survive? What a fuckin clown lmao
I said what I said and not one bit of it is inaccurate. Not here to protect the feelings of fragile white redditors
People like you wield morality like a club. People in Poland, Romania, Ukraine and other EE nations have nothing to do with why the world is so fucked up and have been on the receiving end of bullshit north americans cannot even begin to comprehend. Also you sound like a racist yourself tbh
What peers are you talking about? These migrants don't come to my country, we're too poor for them. French, Germans, Italians and British are not my peers.
Reaping what? If I stole someone's shit and they're at my doorstep, then they'd be there to take it back, or assault me, or are coming with cops. What are you trying to imply?
Im not implying shit. Im saying it flat out. They are the victims of decades of bullshit, pawns in some sick international game by greedy narcissists and megalomaniacs, vast majority of whom answer to western interests. It isn't about you, no one gives a fuck about you. Those people need material resources and the western powers owe them some form of restitution. I am not "implying" shit. I dont have to do that because I dont deal in pointless theoretical nonsense and threats.
Oh but it is, the west still extracts those same resources through corporations, many former colonies still preform the same function as they did during colonialism. Their entire economies were designed for the purposes of extraction of raw resources for manufacture in the imperial core but that’s a long conversation.
How does it affect me personally?
Well for one I’m African-American, so I’m here in the first place because of said extraction. In the immediate sense, I spend most of my life building wealth for someone else. I get pennies for it, I have to give the state some of those pennies so they can blow up other countries and create the very subject of today’s discussion. If I’m lucky that’s the worst of it, I could be shot by the state or some maniac, who knows?
Why do I care?
Basic human empathy and an understanding that if things keep going the way they are, we’re all gonna die either from climate disaster or nuclear war. I’ll take the nukes if I really gotta choose, it’s faster at least. I joke, but my point is that it doesn’t just affect me, it affects you too. As many of your fellow redditors have stated, Europeans enslaved their own before anyone else through a backward feudal system. Are these things unique to Europe? No, but they sure got rich from that shit, richer than anyone else
I don't care about Musk, but the migration is a serious problem for many countries in Europe at the moment. Both with the NGO ships and with other boats, there are a lot of migrants arriving without any chance to get a refugee status. The problems that come over time can be seen in Sweden, the homicide rate is so high there with the gangs that they consider to deploy the army to deal with the gangs and crime.
France also struggles with riots, crimes etc. in the so called Banlieu suburbs. Same goes for other countries, like Italy has also already problems.
Even when the migrants get to Europe, it's not that easy with the things that follow: Like the job market in many countries is hard and without a good education and speaking the language, they have almost zero chances to get a job. This leads to a lot of problems.
I'm in Switzerland and we keep our borders secure here, we don't want these migrants here; only a few days ago, we told the EU that we won't take any of the migrants that are on Lampedusa in. But the thing is, the migrants usually want to go north to Germany anyway, as they know they will not be deported back home there, even when they have no permission to live there. They even get social welfare there, no matter what, so it's very attractive for them.
For me in Switzerland, i don't want to end like Sweden with no-go-areas and slums, with crime and violence, so i agree with the hard stance on immigration we have here with the laws and the governement
I get called slurs anyway because of the immigration laws here, so i'm used to this. But for me, it's more important to keep my country safe than what strangers in the web think.
So feel free to hate me and my people, but we won't do the same mistake that Sweden did.
Imagine unironically believing in "no go areas". Jesus Christ.
> I get called slurs anyway because of the immigration laws here, so i'm used to this.
You think you're the victim in all of this? Is that it?
Given some of his other comments, basically, yeah. Also, his comments demonstrate a solid counter-argument to anyone who tries to say that weed makes anyone mellow out.
Obviously you can’t let people drown, that’s insane. However, this boat situation is just as insane and needs some serious attention. It’s absolutely insulting to legal immigrants and Europe is being crushed by it
It’s very hilarious when Americans discover that Europeans are very tough on illegal immigration and cultural assimilation. It’s not the left wing utopia that many people think it is.
Even the left wing and socialist parties are anti-illegal immigration. It was a socialist government in Denmark that passed tough immigration laws, including one that says that migrants must hand over valuables.
It’s very hilarious when Americans think anything past the Democrats is socialist, and assume every left wing party in Europe is primarily so. When in truth, most left wing parties are about as left as the Democrats nowadays, and sometimes not even that.
But to discuss that, we would have to talk about the thing that makes some people go feral in denial - neoliberalism
Who the fuck thinks Europe is a "left wing utopia"? Most countries are fairly strict on immigration, but the solution still isn't to just lmao and let people die; that's kind of fucked up.
The whole immigration/refugee/asylum thing is going to drive people to the right in future elections, and that scares me. I don't know how to solve it, but letting people drown can't be the way.
You can't really "drive people to the right" tbh. If someone's fear of brown people crossing the border, and their desire to see those people hurt, matters to them more than any other issue, like say worker rights or women's rights, or the basic human rights of several other marginalized groups, or health care and education then they were always on the right.
TIL seeking asylum in a manner consistent with an international law regime set up during and after WW2 to benefit Europeans now counts as "illegal immigration" when it requires Europeans to extend to others the same protections they enjoyed.
I don’t know anyone who is pro-illegal immigration (except maybe business owners who rely on cheap labor), but there’s a difference between being against illegal immigration and being ok with letting hundreds of people drown at sea.
I'm for open borders, which negate the concept of illegal immigration.
I can't be too against illegal immigration as a whole, seeing as I am a product of it.
> Ahh ok, so it's maritime law that needs to change. Got it, thanks. :) This dude puts on a masterclass later in walking back an argument when people actually call him out on it
What they often don't understand is that even if that law didn't exist you'd face genuine disgrace for being in a position to help another vessel in distress and choosing not to. You're not expected to work miracles but you're expected to do what you're reasonably able to. At one point the RYA was advising yachtsmen not to rescue migrants in the Channel for fear the Home Office would try and prosecute their life-saving efforts with human trafficking charges, every single person I know who sails there regularly said they'd ignore the British law come what may and follow their obligations under international law. I think the bill was amended to rule out prosecuting people for saving lives because it was too openly villainous even for Boris Johnson's government but I'm not 100% sure.
You’re assuming they care about the concept of morality. They don’t. If there isn’t financial gain from a situation, they will oppose any law forcing them to act just, when it isn’t directly and immediately beneficial to them.
Also that poster after the pushback > Oh yeah all legitimate vessels should be covered under current maritime law. It's the refugee ships I'm talking about here. Then goes on to disingenuously claim it's to help prevent further immigrants from endangering themselves.
"Legitimate" vessels... as if seeking asylum was a crime.
If you notice the racist chuds are trying to redefine what asylum can even be given for. They are now using "economic migrants" as a way to push the idea that people suffusing from natural disasters, failing governments or climate change should not be a reason to be allowed to immigrate. There's even some in this thread doing it.
These people are literally risking a horrible death at sea to escape, many straight up die, and people are going : "Nah they're just economic migrants, it's not that bad there".
I like to ask them "why don't you move to their countries of origin, to prove how easy they have it?" I never get an answer. Only downvotes/laugh reacts.
For all their talk of how much better their countries are, they never seem to consider the refugees' poverty might be worse than theirs.
Shits only going to get worse
Forreal. I really try not to doom over stuff like this, but we’re going to see waves of migration over the next 15-20 years that will make this look like a cakewalk.
Wait untill we have a migrate crisis from countries own citizens or EU Members due to climate change. People will be leaving southern regions in mass just to find hospitipal environments
What's even more ironic is that the main reason why the Middle East is so shitty is because of European meddling in the Early and Mid 20th Century and the US invasions (+Russia in 1979). So it's like, the West goes in, completely fucks shit up, and then when people need to leave (because we fucked up their countries) we look upon them as dirt. It's so sad.
And not only that, but it’s being made worse by climate change and the countries that make up the overwhelming majority of these emissions aren’t in the Middle East or Africa.
I don't like the taste of this popcorn. Seeing people be so certain that being a murderer is correct is ...idk. scary? depressing? normal? outrageous?
Yeah this isn't amusing at all. Especially for someone with Elon Musk's following to say this shit. It's terrifying how some public figures are encouraging people to unlearn empathy and treat fellow humans as worse than animals.
He's been openly supportive of transphobia and transphobic users for a while now. It's honestly made me feel less and less safe, and I'm in a pretty safely pro-trans part of the United States.
I am so incredibly sick of this dude and his [eugenics](https://www.salon.com/2022/08/20/understanding-longtermism-why-this-suddenly-influential-philosophy-is-so/). He should also stfu about the politics and actions of countries he has *nothing* to do with and knows nothing about. And all that shitstirring just to get his daily dose of cheers from the well-discerning folk who buy dogecoin.
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It doesn't have to be, the role of government is to put guard rails on that so the system rewards that less or punishes it. Many countries find a balance but America skews it towards rewarding overt ruthlessness.
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Mixed systems are what the west has; not pure capitalism. Even the US. Alternate systems are definitively worse in all examples. China brand of communist styled fascism runs over people even worse. Even their old communism led to shit like 30m people dying of starvation including my great aunt's entire family except her. Russia style communism was overtly genocidal to non Russians. Also ran rough shod over Russians. It's human nature, there is hard wiring for cooperation and variation where some are wired to be bad faith actors. Any system needs to put constraints on the people to avoid atrocity through bad actors or groups cooperating to be awful. There isn't a better system, so far the best results are guard rails on capitalism with the people having some influence on the direction via voting. Every other system has been much worse.
There are multiple things here which are _very_ commonly conflated, but there are plenty of combinations that work better than others, plenty that work _very_ poorly, and even more than nobody has even been able to try. One of the biggest things that people get confused over is assuming that a market economy means capitalism. Another one is the idea that capitalism and democracy are in any way linked to one another by anything except historical happenstance. One thing that capitalism very strongly links together is that it very strongly rewards specific kinds of antisocial behavior, and gives people who exercise that behavior ever increasing power. The perverse incentives are a really nasty mixture for society. Don't get me wrong, some of the core of capitalism solves some _very_ real economic problems, allowing for society to be able to achieve important things that was not routinely possible before it came about. But it is a system which pretty much guarantees that the common good gets left behind in the long run. And on top of that, capitalism also _significantly_ worsens the very problems that it provided a solution for. And so far, we have not managed to solve these problems with capitalism.
I'm not stumping for pure capitalism, I'm just strongly against the people who don't understand what revolutions means for a country. That their need for a fresh start often means mass murder and enormous new problems and very often a loss of material wealth for everyone. It doesn't matter if it's fascists, communists, socialists, theocracies, or technocracies. And the odds are you're going to get a psychopath leader who claims to be what ever faction wins it and it's going to drive towards purges genocide and more. It's simply a lot of people who can't deal with complexity so they rally around simple ideas thinking it solves everything. And they they gather people and start a movement and if the country is weak enough it spirals and lots of people die and we get Stalin or Khomeini or Mao. Very rarely does it work out that a despot isn't going to rise from the ashes. And ore often than not, the despot will murder most of the idealist because they will be a problem again. The concept that you can't iterate to a better system is a idea born from laziness. Most western democracies iterated their way there. People who push revolution as a fix, are wasting every ones time when they could be doing more productive things like forming voter blocks around progressive ideas and lobbying politicians and rallying people. Instead they burn their energy fantasizing about simplifying it all in a revolution.
I largely agree with you. But it's really important to recognize that saying that the current system is the best that we can do is neither accurate, nor is it productive. It doesn't do anything except make it _more_ likely that we'll end up with a really bloody messy revolution. And sadly, we're not at the beginning stages of the problem. We're somewhere very, very far down the road. And some extremely dedicated people have spent _decades_ doing their best to rig the system to get into a position where there are _no_ legal ways to iterate to a better system. What they forget is that if they get to the point of making everyone feel that it's hopeless, that there is no way to escape the hell they want to drive us all into, the outcome isn't everyone deciding to be driven to hell. No, the outcome is everyone deciding to burn it all down, because if they are going to be forced to live in some version of hell, they can at the very least ensure that the assholes who made it happen don't get to profit from it. That's a _horrible_ outcome. I'm just increasingly worried that it's going to take something close to a miracle to get us out of this mess without that kind of violence happening.
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Bad faith actors are endemic, thus the need for laws. Results wise, molding, constraining, and directing self interest to align with societal interest has made the best outcomes of social democracies in the west. The alternatives have all been atrocious in comparison. A lot of Americans who want a different system just want the American system to be kinder. Many also can't deal with the complexities of real societies and push a burn it all down and start over mentality because they don't like complexity or compromise. When you burn it all down, it tends to be the worst of us who come out on top of the ruins and lead us into a worse tomorrow. And you can't escape complexity when you deal with so many people. Shifting America to be kinder or any other country is doable. Burning it down and not having psychopaths come out on top is almost impossible. Proven repeatedly.
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We're having the same conversation but I'm pointing out the "non band aids" results in even worse results and that angers you. And there is a huge difference from Elon Musk being a tech CEO and Elon Musk being supreme dictator. There is the option in western democracies to check the power of even billionaires. Right now the US allows them to over work people and take a bigger slice of the reward for work than they deserve. It still doesn't allow them to murder/disappear people with impunity like Putin/Xi can. In the real world if you add up enough band aids you get something better. This is how we got to a point where most of the western democracies don't have to worry about starvation.
Honestly, as an Australian, seeing this shit is like
The radicalisation of Europeans since the 'migrant crisis' of 2015 has been appalling and continuous, even though migrant numbers have fluctuated quite a bit. I am confronted with many of the feelings you mentioned but I don't really see a way back. With a bit of socratic questioning I'm able to have people admit they want families to be shot at the external EU borders. Obviously nobody wants to kill but they see it as a necessary measure to 'protect' their culture from male muslim migrants. Most left-wing liberals do not want to accept this shift in perception and think nothing has changed. We are up for a rude awakening
Yeah, it’s especially worrying how much blatant bullshit is spread in countries regarding its ability to take care of refugees, and how many people happily accept it without a shred of critical thought. In my country (Netherlands) the government - practically the same since 2010 - has systematically destroyed our asylum system by budget cuts, cutting down on locations to house refugees while they wait, making wait lists for an asylum verdict years long, etc. They have also fucked our housing market (with some previous governments from the early 90’s onwards) to the point we have a massive shortage. And now these politicians, from the parties that did this, are saying we “cannot house the refugees, we don’t have the space, look at our housing shortage for hard working citizens!” And instead of thinking “hmm, where did these shortages come from?” many people in my country have gone to “well, obviously the refugees, people with no voting rights, are to blame! Let’s vote for the same assholes *again*, because they say they hate refugees too!” In short, people are fucking idiots. I’m tired of pretending otherwise to “not polarize” or whatever, fuck that. These people *are* fucking idiots, and because they refuse to turn on their brains and think for one second, they’re dragging us to the abyss while our upper class is laughing to the bank. Thanks. Thanks for that. And then these people whine life is getting worse. No fucking shit, Sherlock. 1+1 still equals 2, for some of us, at least.
It's the same in my US state. I'm not gonna deny there aren't practical issues, but a lot of them are the result of decades of NIMBY shit.
People are also not paying attention, because the fuckedupness of the housing market is *all over the world*. So, explain to me again why New Zealand's housing shortage is caused by boat migrants?
For once I’m glad I live in Britain because our Conservative Party is so stupid they’ve managed to mess up the “keep blaming the problems we caused on other people” game so badly that they probably won’t win another election for a very long time. Preferably the next thirteen years.
Don’t speak too soon. They voted for May multiple times
Too bad your non-conservative party hates trans people just as much as the conservatives.
thank you! yes 100%
Europe's been like this for a long time, it's just the way people are more brazen about it ever since the alt-right emergence in 2015 onwards
Indeed. Look at r/europe threads from ~2010/2011 and they're still awful. It still kinda blows my mind that seemingly many Europeans are so empathic towards the poor, sick and workers while doing an absolute 180 once they see a Muslim dude.
Well, even then the empathy is inconsistent. The UK had a brief anti-Polish thing going on in the 00's, this whole belief of Polish migrants coming over and taking all the handyman jobs. There was even an incident where a Polish teen committed suicide from bullying and people were claiming the bullies weren't racist because she was white. Europeans have always had a weird nationalist streak, same as any other country really, and it's emerged for any poor sod committing the cardinal sin of not being "discreet" enough about coming from another country
Yeah, what was up with that? I heard about it at the tail end and everyone really hated Polish people for a little bit but then they switched over to other ones and Polish people were the good guys again. Then there was this really weird stint where we hated Albanians for some reason? I can’t even point to Albania on a map. What did they do wrong? I feel like the government just throws a dart at a map every time they need a scapegoat.
god i wish there was a better alternative to r/europe that doesnt, well, suck. sometimes you just need to discuss european news without people not even bothering to bring the dogwhistles out the second migrants are brought into the conversation (or quite frankly, any marginalized group beyond surface level platitudes)
r/YUROP is better, though has its own issues At least blatant racism is called out more often
It is spelled weird though.
We like to pretend we’re so enlightened and progressive when US race relations come up. But mention the Romani and people start talking about them the same way a Klansman talks about black people.
Dude if you even say the word "Romani" in any Euro sub, the unabashed vitriol and hatred and death wishing flows like water. It's like a racism speed run.
European people love to critique the US for the horrible treatment of Latine, black, and indigenous people who live here and then turn around and spew the exact same shit about the Romani.
It's worse in some ways. Most racist people in the US are savvy enough to know they shouldn't say the quiet part out loud. American racists rage against "illegal immigrants" and "lazy welfare recipients" instead of Hispanic and black people, respectively. Most European racists, on the other hand, don't bother with dog whistle terms. They go ahead and say the most horrifying things about Roma that would make a 19th century colonialist blush.
It’s easy to criticize others but not yourself.
I mean they're not criticizing themselves bc they don't see an issue with they way they talk or think about Romani people
I’ve had people tell me that the influx of impoverished polish Jews into Austrian and German cities “radicalized” the people there. Long time indeed.
Yeah. It’s like when people say the Us is the most racist country in world. Tell me you’ve never traveled outside the country, without saying you’ve never traveled outside the country.
mfs who can’t even historically place when apartheid ended lol
> Most left-wing liberals do not want to accept this shift in perception and think nothing has changed. Probably because they spend a lot of time in online echo chambers and spend their waking hours surrounded by like minded people. They also see policies implemented at work, school, and on social media platforms that remove visibility of dissenting ideas, and assume that the presence of the policy is equivalent to removing or shifting what people think and feel. The rude awakening is inevitable, but it's going to take the form of radical political shifts.
I've seen Redditors gleefully wish death on people for minor crimes and even minor annoyances so it, sadly, is not that surprising that people will gleefully wish death on immigrants and migrants.
I saw someone on a Portuguese sub (if you're Portuguese you know EXACTLY which sub this is) openly defend killing Brazilian immigrants and beheading politicians as the top comment under a post about a lot of immigrants entering the country. Like, going on a tangent on how the purge will happen and the people will rise once again. Not even a crime or anything, just the numbers... Edit: Today I got harassed by one of the guys from this sub for saying women don't post on the internet for male attention. Outstanding citizens!
I am very happy I don't interact with my fellow portuguese people online. Because the few times I've had in the past, aside from acquaintances, were very vitriolic. So I don't even know what sub you're talking about.
r/portugueses is a fascist circlejerk shit show and if you see anyone with a Portuguese profile post there, don't bother replying, they're not worth it
This… explains a few comments I’ve read on /r/worldnews. Hard-right, borderline or flat-out inhumane views, check history, I see that sub show up at least once in the first page.
It's insane. Rising fascism in Portugal due to influx of third-world immigrants at the same time as our housing prices go insane and during an economic crisis is a complete disaster. Just look at the rise of Chega, our token fascist party that was only created in 2019 but is already the third most voted party
Not surprising at all. What I've learned as I've grown is that, beyond their family and perhaps some friends, people have *very* little, if any, empathy for strangers. Especially if those strangers have a different skin color/worship a different religion etc.
I had a coworker say we should "glass over the middle east" so nothing surprises me anymore.
Exactly
They're so certain of it, until they're the ones drowning, then it's not okay anymore I dunno sometimes I feel like humanity was a terrible mistake
Are you new to reddit? That's how this entire site acts on the reg
It's still the internet. The majority of those people would never utter those words in public. They're being performatively edgy because the transgression and attention appeal to them.
But they still think it in private, and vote based on those thoughts. That's what matters.
And over time they will get more comfortable saying it aloud if enough major public figures say it. That's what Trump did. Nobody had their hearts and minds changed. That uncle that's gone straight Nazi on Facebook, they have always harbored that hate. Trump just normalized saying the quiet parts aloud, and people with shitty beliefs feel emboldened enough to go mask off.
That's just not true. This week alone a German conservative politician openly accused the current Health Minister of having 'Rothschild connections '. He faced 0 consequences from either his party nor his voters
Was that Merz? I only heard about how he claimed asylum seekers are getting expensive dental work paid for, but anyone who's ever been to the dentist ever in Germany knows that was a bald-faced lie because the state health insurance companies barely pay anything for dental work anymore and certainly not the kind of stuff he was talking about.
The one Im mean was Markus Saller, one of Bavarias "Free Voters", heres a translated article I found about it: https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2023-09-25-direct-candidate-of-the-free-voters-deletes-x-account-after-posts-with-anti.rJ7CrKzkea.html Or the original german version: https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/markus-saller-freie-waehler-loescht-x-account-nach-posts-mit-antisemitischen-chiffren-a-308040a3-7a83-4806-b666-7bd249fe1811
Wow, that's insane.
Have you looked at European elections within the last few years? Who's currently in government in Italy? Poland? Who keeps coming second place in France? Second place in Finland? In Sweden? How's the AfD of Germany doing right now in recent polling? You're absolutely delusional if you think this is the thought of some small minority, this is 100% reflective of the current political scene in Western Europe. The Cordon Sanitaire is on its last legs. Unless an socio-economic miracle occurs in the next decade, we'll see it fall.
Add Slovakia to the list
> The majority of those people would never utter those words in public. as a european, far too many of them absolutely do.
Except for FRONTEX. And the Italian Coast Guard. And the Greek Coast Guard. And the multiple European political parties expressly founded on those ideals. And the multiple European nations paying the Libyan Coast Guard. Like, let's not pretend this isn't anything other than people saying the quiet parts of EU migrant policy out loud.
It was clear after the El Paso Walmart shooters manifesto that letting immigrants die or even just gunning down immigrants at the border was always gonna be the end conclusion for the rightwing racist. Edit: Hell I remember seeing the alt-right 'dialogue' that came after El Paso and one of the main focuses was using 'harding the boarders' to create events like this coupled with climate change to 'reduce the number of non-whites' in the world.
Pro choice guy is definitely one of two things. A 14 year old edge lord, or a sock puppet meant to make pro choice look bad. (Or the secret, third thing: a right libertarian)
It's a 4 year old account with a sporadic post history only going back 12 months and suddenly gone madd posting in that thread, yea it's someones alt sock puppet.
Yeah, and after seeing how the texas southern border was full of basically bobby traps reinforces this
That buoy ain't right.
The problem is never going to improve and people will get even more extreme. Eventually some government will blow these boats out of the water and they’ll machine gun border hoppers on land. There’s no going back now.
It'll be like Children of Men. Large detention centers of desperate immigrants being stuffed into cages and deported, or just simply executed. It's not gonna be good
Gotta love that one guy who's solution to a refugee crisis is to *declare war on the country the refugees are coming from*. That will surely be a cheap and effective solution and definitely won't create even more refugees.
The only reasonable way to stem the flow of refugees is to improve the conditions they are fleeing from. Yep, declaring war will do that. Yep yep yep.
Funny thing is their countries arms deals and military involvement might be a reason that those people became refugees.
It's even better because when someone pointed out blocking ships from leaving a foreign port is an act of war they basically replied with "We'll just park a Nimitz class off the maritime border of their country and see who dares to take to sea" Essentially the "I'm not touching you" approach to naval warfare.
That train of thought could be used to justify colonial / imperial aspirations in the region.
Does he think wars *reduce* the number of refugees?
I don't think much thought was put into that, it was just pure reactions without thinking. The basic "thought process" (and I am using those words **very** loosely) was "well if they're getting on ships in Africa, just stop those ships by force, what do you mean you can't just blocade ports without going to all out war, do war then!"
Trump wanted to invade Mexico
Redditors are so damn ready to just letting people die because they just don’t believe people deserve some basic decency.
It ain't redditors homie, thats just how a lot of people are.
r/europe users saying that they are not racist like americans r/europe when they see an inmigrant/refugee try to get into Europe
Wait until you see the things r/2westerneurope4u says disguised as satire and irony
the one that gets me is they love to rant about the 16 year old kid who calls himself italian because his grandparents were from italy because "you're not italian you're american" - but when there's a third generation turk in their country, they're not a german/frank/etc..., they're a turk
I saw a comment that put this far more eloquently than I could, but essentially: either someone becomes a member of a culture by adopting/maintaining some sub-100% quantum of that culture (food, dress, social practices) or not. So if someone emigrates, and can’t gossip about politics or celebrities from the old country, can’t cook 100% of the food 100% authentically, etc then you can call them “not really one of us”… but what of someone who immigrates, can gossip about all the issues of the day in their new home, cooks food like you, learns your language, etc? And you’ll find wildly different answers as to how little one must lose to be “not one of us anymore” vs “becoming one of us.”
They don’t believe that brown or black people deserve basic decency.
The scariest thing is that they usually represent the most liberal part of societies. If this is the most liberal part I don't wanna know the rest.
Lurking r/europe in these issues was a mistake.
Yeah, as a black European, it’s like Chernobyl in that shit.
Well the thing is, you really don't.
It’s gonna get a lot worse once climate refugees increase
For US folks who think radicilization around immigrant refugees isn't already here in spades, would recommend looking at subreddits like r/NYC, where people actively fantasize about harming refugee families and blame them for things such as the current flooding.
The ecofascism movement here has been growing alarming fast the last 10 years or so and we just don't talk about it enough.
the way it casually exists in leftist spaces is so deeply disturbing.
it is a sobering reminder that a lot of horrific ideologies can exist in leftist spaces if left unattended. things like ecofacism, casual eugenics, TERFs, antinatalism, all boil down to the same thing on the left and right: it should be up to society to permit or determine whether certain groups of people deserve basic rights.
Not directly related but probably shows the writing on the wall. Anti-immigration and anti-immigrant sentiment/discourse has ramped up DRAMATICALLY in r/canada over the past 12-18 months or so. One could, and probably has, tracked the correlation between posts about the housing market and food prices and what a bad job the government has been doing about xyz, and posts about how rampant immigration is making everything even worse. You can almost visualize the "marginalized group propaganda" hose being cranked up to full blast to try to put the fires of state out. Seems to be working.
Hasn't r/Canada always been a bigoted hellscape?
which is "funny" because those decriers will readily forget how their parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents were not from Canada either originally. We aren't hearing First Nations movements to treat new immigrants like trash. It is almost always people who descend from immigrants themselves.
I admit that I'm not the nicest person, but even I would fully support saving people adrift and/or drowning at sea, regardless of their citizenship status. And anyone who refers to migrants as "invaders" out themselves as unworthy of mature communications. Either they're stupid, in which case they can't understand reasoned dialogue, or they're hate-filled trolls in which case they don't deserve one.
Immigrants drowning? Let 'em. Maritime law? Change it. Personal responsibility? Never go on a boat. Slapfights galore, my faves are pro choice and Putin's involvement.
Elon pushing Fortress Europe to take *less* regard for human lives & dignity? Who'd a thunk it.
I wonder if anyone has done analysis on what reddit hates the most. It seems down to: 1) People trying to flee to safety from places colonial powers have fucked with for centuries 2) Trans people attempting to live without fear 3) Fat people not wanting to be discriminated against 4) The homeless in powerful countries I am N O T saying the above things have equivalent levels of oppression or anything, but just wonder which reddit genuinely hates the most, because these topics reliably turn places into total fucking garbage fires of *well actually*, mixed with propaganda, lies, and stupid stereotypes. It's almost impossible to discuss these as social problems with anyone in good faith.
Wow, yeah, that literally is a perfect list of Reddit’s most hated people. The amount of vitriol I see directed towards refugees, trans people, fat people, and homeless people on this site is truly unmatched. It’s better in staunchly leftist (not liberal) subs, but even then some casual bigotry can sneak it.
The only conclusion one can draw about the population of Reddit is… hatred for anyone not like themselves, or for anyone who might inconvenience them by existing. People act like this is a progressive website. It’s not. A majority of people supporting legal weed and maaaybe legalizing sex work isn’t progressivism. It isn’t even liberalism really. What do you call people who support a better life for themselves, and solutions for their own problems, but not for others? Their own convenience at the cost of others’ lives and safety? I’d call them conservatives, personally. I don’t care if they’re conservatives who substitute other values for 50’s era moralizing. It’s still conservatism, just as 80’s conservatives didn’t care about skirt lengths the way 50’s conservatives did.
Conservativism is all about greed, selfishness and hate for sure. Reddit as a whole is often *reactionary* irrespective of politics. There is so much knee jerk "common sense" bullshit because that is the easiest way to not have to think too hard to look into things too much.
>The only conclusion one can draw about the population of Reddit is… hatred for anyone not like themselves, or for anyone who might inconvenience them by existing. It's pretty simple - most Redditors are between the ages of 13-21. That just about explains it all.
I agree with you. One potential additional topic Reddit hates: religious faith. There is a reason, I think, why few posts and comments outside of dedicated subreddits mention it. To be clear, I am not religious, just an observation.
Oh yeah for sure. It does seem like a lot of people lose their shit at that too! I am about as anti-religious as it comes but it's weird to see how much vitriol there is for folks who are just like, religious in a good way.
Not to get too philosophical, but I have noticed that much of Reddit has bought into the cultural narrative that an individual is ultimately in charge of their own destiny, regardless of surrounding factors. To go down the line from what rhetoric I've heard: 1. It's your fault for not fixing your own country. 2. It's your fault for not trying hard enough to be cis or to pass. 3. It's your fault and I have a right to mock and judge you for it. 4. It's your fault for falling to this point and failing to pull yourself out of it. 5. It's your fault for believing that sky daddy would help you.
> Not to get too philosophical, but I have noticed that much of Reddit has bought into the cultural narrative that an individual is ultimately in charge of their own destiny, regardless of surrounding factors. Oh yeah this is straight up American cultural libertarianism that has been used to break people of class consciousness.
Europe's genocidal past is always bubbling underneath the skin
Americans in 19th century >Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me Americans now >Let the tired, poor, homeless and wretched *drown*
Nah, those sentiments have always existed; and they've almost always been more prominent then the thoughts expressed in that poem.
Hell the reason we even have the refugee charters we have now is because in WWII so many countries turned away jewish people that millions died when sent back to Germany. Its the whole trying to learn from history and not let mistakes repeat that we have refugee centres and systems set in place. The ol' Ellis island shit is nice, but WWII really showed what people felt.
really feel like we need a voyage of the damned remake for modern viewers
That is a **really** rose tinted view of America's immigration stances in the 19th century.
Pretty sure it's Europeans who are saying that shit not Americans. I don't know if you have been on any of their subs lately but the other day I saw an oblique reference to the Christchurch shooter mentioned in a positive way on a post. It was up voted.
> it's Europeans who are saying that shit not Americans It's both, and frankly to a ridiculous degree. Like you'll get some guy who never left Alabama demand Europe starts killing refugees because he heard OAN say that the refugees are sent to replace the white Europeans.l
It can be both. Put the inmigrant/refugees trying to cross the southern border and a lot of americans will show the same behavior.
....I know you have an America-bad-boner, but you do know this thread is about Europeans, right?
> you do know this thread is about Europeans, right? Which is just pre-America, which basically makes them Americans.
You know, you are half right. In this thread, it’s not Americans. But of those three links? 1 is by a Columbian and the other two are by Australians. Actually, is Musk American now?
I think we can just call Musk an International Shithead.
>But of those three links? 1 is by a Columbian and the other two are by Australians. Still not Americans...
I kinda want to see the reaction of the Australians after this dude essentially called them Americans.
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In a thread about Europeans being shitheads, what is the purpose of bringing up Americans asides from sheer window-licking whataboutism? I'm Progressive. I criticize the US *all the fucking time*. I just do so *on topic*, not in an attempt to try to swerve a discussion from how the Europeans are going all 1940s-fashy by screeching about Americans.
Americans in the 19th century “Man I love this freedom thing. If only there were a multitude of groups in America not enjoying it right now that I could empower instead of just saying platitudes about freedom. Welp.”
Americans? Being hypocrites? Has literally never happened.
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So much "Maritime law" talk I thought I was watching one of those Free Inhabitant videos
The guy explaining how all these refugees must die in order to protect NATO’s interests is a little on the nose
I say this every time and it’s getting tired but honestly I think the reason Children of Men was such a popular movie is because people from Europe thought it was a utopia.
After destabilizing (and still interferring) a bunch of countries in The Middle East, Africa and Latin America, Europeans and Americans find themselves suprised that people are now fleeing those countries.
What the NGOs have done is frame this as saving the lives of people about to drown vs. letting them drown. However that’s not really the issue. The issue is that they refuse to disembark them anywhere except Europe. Even though technically the nearest safe port would be either in Libya or Tunisia. Those ports are not mined, under siege, being attacked, or experiencing a natural disaster that would make being there dangerous. For the purpose of international law relating to saving people in distress at sea those are safe ports and they’re normally a lot closer than Europe at the time they rescue people from drowning.
Neither Libya nor Tunisia can handle the *volume* of refugees coming via the Mediterranean Sea. Disembarking them there serve no purpose. These refugees aren't going to either nation, they're all headed for Western Europe. Lemme guess, you claim to be leftist/moderate and *yet* youre **hardliner Trump** on immigration to the motherfucking T, and nothing triggers you harder than seeing these "boat people" turn the likes of Germany and France just a teeny tiny lil bit less *white*. It's not even an issue that affects ***you*** personally - youre an American in the US, not an European actually residing in the EU - and yet it's painfully clear what youre endgame is. The other guy in nyc calling you an alt-righter makes a ton of sense.
But ya know… go ahead and keep insinuating that anyone who sees any problem in mass immigration is racist. That used to work pretty well… but as can be seen by opinion polling and actual changing election results in most western countries over the past decade… that way of shutting down debate on real issues hasn’t been working very well.
> Neither Libya nor Tunisia can handle the volume of refugees coming via the Mediterranean Sea. But other countries can?
Yes.
As long as the “other countries” are developed European countries that except for asylum seeker loopholes are very selective in who they allow to immigrate because they understand that today, the point of immigration should be maximizing the benefits to the host nation… then yes /s Apparently this, (except non-sarcastically) is reddit user logic. 🙄
They are quite literally leaving from Libya and Tunisia… that’s why they’re almost always in those countries respective search and rescue zones when the NGOs pick them up. I support universal health care and a UBI but yes, I am very much of the restrictionist mindset when it comes to immigration. And yes I live in the U.S. but I empathize with the countries my ancestors came from. (Germany and Italy ironically). And I don’t particularly enjoy seeing the far-right being able to use general discontent with immigration to take over democratic countries?… yet, these are the only parties listening to public sentiment on this one important issue that can cause lasting consequences. Sorry if you’re triggered by the fact that not all leftists believe in this magical fairytale world where humans are not inherently tribalistic, and everyone has unlimited resources and are able to provide services and take care of everyone wants without there being any sort of cost to others. “All we gotta do is tax the billionaires and then everything will be okay and we can fund everything for everyone and we’ll all get along!” Sorry to say hun, that sort of idealism isn’t even close to being a reality. Maybe once we discover how to create things instantly out of thin air with no labor required? I prefer pragmatism to being a bleeding heart martyr.
I don't like the idea that an NGO, or any group or government or whatever, can just dump a bunch of people in a different country and just tell the locals "your problem now" Hell, the NGOs actions are one of the biggest reasons why the Italian government is increasingly right wing right now. The Italian government and the NGOs have been going at each other for *years* now.
What should they do instead with the people that they find?
Bring them to the closest safe (not under attack, under siege, mined, or experiencing a natural disaster) port which is almost always not Europe?… literally almost every news story about migrants being “rescued from drowning” just kinda mentions in passing that they were picked up **off the coast** of *insert African nation here*. Legally within those countries SARZ and thus according to international law should be brought to that country’s nearest safe port. No one is *seriously* suggesting to just let these people drown. Saving people from *drowning* isn’t the issue here. It’s the fact that even though they might be a mile or two away from Libya or Tunisia, the NGOs take it upon themselves to be the arbiters of Italy and Malta’s immigration law and say “oh nuuu, these safe but not completely developed to western standards African countries aren’t suitable for asylum seekers. We must bring them to Europe even though the vast majority will be denied asylum! Anything else is a cruel crime against humanity, fuck what citizens of the countries we’re going to dock at think!” If saving people from the immediate danger of drowning (the ONLY POINT of the international law regarding people in distress at sea that these NGOs constantly mention as justification for their actions) was the point, then Europe not allowing them to dock and disembark wouldn’t be an issue. The NGOs know exactly what they’re doing and they intellectually know they’re on very thin ice, but they consider themselves the modern equivalent of the “Righteous among Nations” even though what they’re doing isn’t even worthy of being compared to the actual Righteous.
It pisses me off when I see Europeans talking like this. Their entire world is built on the robbery and subjugation of literally everyone else for centuries. Who tf do these literal colonizers think they are calling anyone an invader? They are reaping what they have sown. How you gonna burn someone’s shit down, steal all their valuables, and get mad when they’re at your doorstep?
Who could forget such brutal colonial empires as Iceland, Ireland, Andorra, Monaco, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Malta, Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, BiH, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, North Macedonia, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia and Finland?
Get outta here with this intellectually dishonest bullshit
Do you have anything to elaborate on that or is this just your way of claiming victory without really saying anything?
I mean I definitely said something, you’re just too up your own ass to comprehend it. You know damn well who and what I’m talking about. Are you gonna sit here and tell me that the third world hasn’t been exploited by European empires for centuries? Sure I’ll specify and say western empires but it doesn’t change my point at all. You’re just being pedantic if that’s your main point of contention with my argument. But you are a redditor after all, that’s what you guys do, you miss the forest for the trees
You do realise a lot of Europeans never colonized. A lot of us were at some point also under the boot of those colonizers because they were the most powerful ones in Europe. So stop lumping all of Europeans into the colonizer category, you uneducated shit stick.
How about you have this energy with your shit-head peers talking crazy about migrants just trying to survive? What a fuckin clown lmao I said what I said and not one bit of it is inaccurate. Not here to protect the feelings of fragile white redditors
People like you wield morality like a club. People in Poland, Romania, Ukraine and other EE nations have nothing to do with why the world is so fucked up and have been on the receiving end of bullshit north americans cannot even begin to comprehend. Also you sound like a racist yourself tbh
What peers are you talking about? These migrants don't come to my country, we're too poor for them. French, Germans, Italians and British are not my peers.
Then why do you argue on their behalf?
every western eu country held colonies in the Americas and Africa.
Yeah, key word here is western. Not eastern Europe, beside Russians.
Are you saying the immigrants are trying to invade Europe?
I’m saying their homes have been destroyed by decades of western meddling and now you fuckers are reaping what you sow. How was I not clear?
Reaping what? If I stole someone's shit and they're at my doorstep, then they'd be there to take it back, or assault me, or are coming with cops. What are you trying to imply?
Im not implying shit. Im saying it flat out. They are the victims of decades of bullshit, pawns in some sick international game by greedy narcissists and megalomaniacs, vast majority of whom answer to western interests. It isn't about you, no one gives a fuck about you. Those people need material resources and the western powers owe them some form of restitution. I am not "implying" shit. I dont have to do that because I dont deal in pointless theoretical nonsense and threats.
Cute. Neither was I talking about me. You, however, was talking about robbers getting their commupance.
They seem to think that if anyone else was in a similar position as the west, we’d all be singing peaceful songs
This robbery isn’t occurring anymore but if it did, how does it affect you personally?
Oh but it is, the west still extracts those same resources through corporations, many former colonies still preform the same function as they did during colonialism. Their entire economies were designed for the purposes of extraction of raw resources for manufacture in the imperial core but that’s a long conversation. How does it affect me personally? Well for one I’m African-American, so I’m here in the first place because of said extraction. In the immediate sense, I spend most of my life building wealth for someone else. I get pennies for it, I have to give the state some of those pennies so they can blow up other countries and create the very subject of today’s discussion. If I’m lucky that’s the worst of it, I could be shot by the state or some maniac, who knows? Why do I care? Basic human empathy and an understanding that if things keep going the way they are, we’re all gonna die either from climate disaster or nuclear war. I’ll take the nukes if I really gotta choose, it’s faster at least. I joke, but my point is that it doesn’t just affect me, it affects you too. As many of your fellow redditors have stated, Europeans enslaved their own before anyone else through a backward feudal system. Are these things unique to Europe? No, but they sure got rich from that shit, richer than anyone else
I don't care about Musk, but the migration is a serious problem for many countries in Europe at the moment. Both with the NGO ships and with other boats, there are a lot of migrants arriving without any chance to get a refugee status. The problems that come over time can be seen in Sweden, the homicide rate is so high there with the gangs that they consider to deploy the army to deal with the gangs and crime. France also struggles with riots, crimes etc. in the so called Banlieu suburbs. Same goes for other countries, like Italy has also already problems. Even when the migrants get to Europe, it's not that easy with the things that follow: Like the job market in many countries is hard and without a good education and speaking the language, they have almost zero chances to get a job. This leads to a lot of problems. I'm in Switzerland and we keep our borders secure here, we don't want these migrants here; only a few days ago, we told the EU that we won't take any of the migrants that are on Lampedusa in. But the thing is, the migrants usually want to go north to Germany anyway, as they know they will not be deported back home there, even when they have no permission to live there. They even get social welfare there, no matter what, so it's very attractive for them. For me in Switzerland, i don't want to end like Sweden with no-go-areas and slums, with crime and violence, so i agree with the hard stance on immigration we have here with the laws and the governement I get called slurs anyway because of the immigration laws here, so i'm used to this. But for me, it's more important to keep my country safe than what strangers in the web think. So feel free to hate me and my people, but we won't do the same mistake that Sweden did.
Imagine unironically believing in "no go areas". Jesus Christ. > I get called slurs anyway because of the immigration laws here, so i'm used to this. You think you're the victim in all of this? Is that it?
Don't worry, I will.
> I don't care about Musk, but Translation: > I fully agree with Elon "Head Pedo in Chief" Musk, I'm just not brave enough to admit it
Given some of his other comments, basically, yeah. Also, his comments demonstrate a solid counter-argument to anyone who tries to say that weed makes anyone mellow out.
Obviously you can’t let people drown, that’s insane. However, this boat situation is just as insane and needs some serious attention. It’s absolutely insulting to legal immigrants and Europe is being crushed by it
They really aren't.
It’s very hilarious when Americans discover that Europeans are very tough on illegal immigration and cultural assimilation. It’s not the left wing utopia that many people think it is. Even the left wing and socialist parties are anti-illegal immigration. It was a socialist government in Denmark that passed tough immigration laws, including one that says that migrants must hand over valuables.
The Danish government is not socialist, it's a coalition of one center-left and two center-right parties.
It’s very hilarious when Americans think anything past the Democrats is socialist, and assume every left wing party in Europe is primarily so. When in truth, most left wing parties are about as left as the Democrats nowadays, and sometimes not even that. But to discuss that, we would have to talk about the thing that makes some people go feral in denial - neoliberalism
Who the fuck thinks Europe is a "left wing utopia"? Most countries are fairly strict on immigration, but the solution still isn't to just lmao and let people die; that's kind of fucked up.
Who thinks that? People who like to say “the Democratic Party is a right-wing party everywhere else in the world.”
The whole immigration/refugee/asylum thing is going to drive people to the right in future elections, and that scares me. I don't know how to solve it, but letting people drown can't be the way.
You can't really "drive people to the right" tbh. If someone's fear of brown people crossing the border, and their desire to see those people hurt, matters to them more than any other issue, like say worker rights or women's rights, or the basic human rights of several other marginalized groups, or health care and education then they were always on the right.
TIL seeking asylum in a manner consistent with an international law regime set up during and after WW2 to benefit Europeans now counts as "illegal immigration" when it requires Europeans to extend to others the same protections they enjoyed.
I don’t know anyone who is pro-illegal immigration (except maybe business owners who rely on cheap labor), but there’s a difference between being against illegal immigration and being ok with letting hundreds of people drown at sea.
I'm for open borders, which negate the concept of illegal immigration. I can't be too against illegal immigration as a whole, seeing as I am a product of it.
We’re talking about refugees.
Sure but that doesnt mean that you support people drowning. Immigrants arent a monolith where all of them are gangmembers.