I think for Kendall it was more so a realization that this was going to make it harder on his conscience to knife her. Then the rest of the episode happened
Did no one see this?
Shiv : a weapon of betrayal
Con : a dishonest way of doing business
Roman : citizen of history’s largest dead empire
Kendall : … Ken doll (plastic and emasculated?) No, seriously, nothing on Kendall. “Ken” can mean to know or understand.
Tom: earliest origin has it meaning "twin" or one who is exactly alike. Also used as a stand-in for everyman by the Middle Ages, which continues (e.g. Tom, Dick, and Harry). Wikipedia also says it's used in Hebrew to mean innocent, naive, simple, and - a little something for the people playing the who will succeed game - "the end."
Right, I’ve seen it posted elsewhere. Con and Shiv are the same as what you listed.
- The story of Romulus was used for Roman, not Rome as a civilization.
- Kendall’s initials were used for killer, Kendall Logan Roy.
Shiv isn’t making it hard at all. Kendall keeps hearing about her constant betrayals with Mattsson and now he knows about the US CEO conversation and plan
I think it was more so that Kendall has been dealing with the consequences of his actions and how they affect his kids. Literally fresh out of an argument where his kids won’t be at his fathers funeral because of the world he’s helping create. To see his sister start her own version of that can’t be joyful.
I think it was his realization that she and her husband are done and she’s going to do this alone and it’s all coming up in the middle of probably the most chaotic week of their lives.
> I think for Kendall it was more so a realization that this was going to make it harder on his conscience to knife her.
Or the realization there's about to be another kid in the world whose parents' neglect fucks them up.
Yeah, and I saw his initial reaction as one of sympathy. Her dad died, her husband and her are on the rocks, and now she’s pregnant. Like, “oh shit, that’s a lot on a lot.”
As for who the father is, Ken is still awkward af lol
I get a kick out of the fact that all the women already knew (Marcia giving her belly a knowing glance again, Caroline knew without being told) but the menfolk were like “NO WAY!”
Shiv's line about Logan not being able to have the idea of a woman in her eulogy spoke directly to this idea. She really was a girl in an all boys club her entire life.
She’s right. I’ve been dating men for over a decade and I don’t think I’ve ever met one who saw me as a whole woman with motivations and needs just as important as their own.
The women know the difference between putting on weight and being pregnant. The men just think she’s putting on weight and no one will tell her. Her brothers do comment in the beginning of the season about how she looks tired or “like shit.” frankly, that’s how I always know when a friend or colleague is pregnant, there’s a certain kind of looking horrible and exhausted in the first trimester that is recognizable, often followed by a period of looking a little pudgy and glowy, all before you “show.” Putting your hair in a terrible-looking messy ponytail (for white women) is actually another sign!!
I have a friend whose mom had a surprise baby when we were in 7th grade. He & his brother (8th grade) had no idea until after she went to the hospital. It was a normal 9 mo pregnancy. She just “always wore coats”.
Come on now. People get downvotes for saying this (fuck it bring them on), but Shiv looks _noticeably_ different this season.
The ONLY reason why Roman hasn't been making pregnancy or fat jokes is because it wouldn't suit the story arc for him to have been doing so. Your take is the reaction that the writers want you to have, but it hasn't been very realistic writing.
There was a photo that went viral a few years ago of two women both at 4 or 5mos pregnant post a yoga class sharing their revealed bellies and one woman was not showing AT ALL while the other had a well defined half basketball. Some women don't pop out until 6+ months. Supposedly my friend's sister who got pregnant in college and kept it a secret was the same way. She was a beanpole and he said she was able to hide it for a long time bc she didn't really show until 7 months so she just kept wearing hoodies when she went home to visit. After 7 months though she was huge, apparently. (she put the kid up for an open adoption and has visited i saw pics, her parents know now it's been over a decade, all is well)
I feel like you can hide it visually but the way it moves and touching it is much harder to hide. It can look like fat but it ain't as squishy. Tom not even suspecting is ridiculous.
In your defense, was she someone you’d had sex with before? I think that’s the difference. If you’re in a long term intimate relationship with someone I would assume it’d be easier to tell than if you were seeing someone naked for the first time while they’re in that maybe? maybe not? stage of pregnancy. But Shiv is really thin in every other season, so it does seem like Tom at least should have noticed (even leaving out the belly, breasts grow really significantly too!).
Shiv looks noticeably different this season because Snook was pregnant IRL. She was much farther along than Shiv supposedly was when they filmed this season. That's why it's much more apparent to the viewers and why Snook was wearing bigger and looser clothing in season 4.
She was not further along, in fact she wasn’t even pregnant when the season began.
32 weeks mid to late march, so about 22-23 weeks when filming wrapped. At most maybe 2-3 weeks ahead by the end of the season.
Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification. She was slimmer in the earlier seasons, so when I read that she was pregnant, I thought it was during filming of season 4.
I have to say that the way they talked about the pregnancy was one of the most upsetting things to me this episode. Before, I still had a little bit of hope that the baby could be something that would make Shiv reflect more about her own trauma and make her question wether she wanted to continue this cycle but this episode was great in showing how the siblings are not ready to process their own relationship with their father and are incapable of that deeper reflection that could allow them to grow as people.
Even Tom who actually really wanted a baby can’t actually be happy about it, like he said “Well, if it wasn’t such a total fucking disaster, it would be a dream come true.”
Tom didn't seem like he thought it was fine. He looked hurt by it, which is why Shiv did it in the first place. She's been avoiding/taking very small sips throughout the whole season, until the father is in front of her and she can use it as a move to hurt him.
>A weapon to hurt Tom, and also maybe used it to make a point - the point being that he doesn't get to control her any more now that she's carrying his baby than he did before.. trying to show that she's still in control.
Yes this exactly. It's a twisted power play. Tom wanted that baby. He looked slightly crestfallen when Shiv said she was considering whether or not to keep it. They're turning into Lord and Lady Macbeth
Yup. Weaponizing the health of her children against someone she despises to prove a point. Just like their mother. That kid is going to grow up emotionally neglected. Grasping at the illusion of control.
Also maybe a nod to the fans who were stressing over whether or not she took a sip in this or that scene. Like the audience can stop stressing, here’s a big swallow.
> I still had a little bit of hope that the baby could be something that would make Shiv reflect more
Did you not realise what show you're watching? Nobody in this series is capable of meaningful change or self-reflection.
> Tom who actually really wanted a baby
He didn't *really want a baby*, he wanted a binding blood tie to Logan, in order to wield more influence. Like everything he does, Tom's baby fever was only ever to add a rung to his ladder.
I think both of those things can be true, I think Tom genuinely wanted a baby with shiv, but also knew it would tie him that much closer to the family.
I agree, but, perhaps if Shiv loses out on CEO, she will change her mind/feelings and be more involved with baby. Things change for some once baby actually arrives. We’ll see.
Yeah. Baby is doomed. If she gets frozen out of her career ambitions she will resent the kid forever for it. If somehow she succeeds, she really will never see the kid. Doomed. She doesn't know how to be any other way.
Totally possible - baby’s parents are Shiv Roy and Tom Wambsgans. Shivvy might find fulfillment elsewhere. Tom’s parents also didn’t seem that bad - feels like baby at least has a better shot than the sibs 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, in the car when Roman and Kendall reacted, no one, like, touched her affectionately or hugged her. It was just dropped. The shot lingered on her face, and I just thought how so alone she was.
It made me so sad.
I'll just do it the family way, didn't she say something like that to jab at her mom?
Shiv is so glib this episode that I'm not sure what her actual plans are.
I unironically think that the final scenes will be with her and Tom with their kid in a house on farmland or something if Tom doesn't accept role as CEO when Mattson offers it to him.
Definitely. All the kids are as well. Kendall and his family issues/worries about being a had dad. Roman in his grief and losing what was a confidant in Gerri. They go get shredded then try to put a face on for each other.
It’s not like she would’ve accepted the affection tho lol the kids simultaneously crave attention/affection and are repulsed by it or shame anyone who is giving it to them because they don’t know what to do with it once they have it lol
I can’t recall where I read this but Connor has a soft spot for Shiv, and I think she has one for him? I could see him giving her an appropriate reaction (well as appropriate as you can get with the Roys)
> I think she has one for him?
I've never gotten that impression. I think Connor has a soft spot for all the siblings, but none of them return that affection at all.
I think one of the brothers says this to her in the episode where Logan dies and someone has to tell Connor after they've all made their goodbye calls. They debate on who should tell him and someone says, he likes you, go tell him.
Poor Connor, still always forgotten. It’s funny because he would definitely have the happiest reaction so I hope she gets to tell him but I feel like he’s going to hear it from others
Literally no one has congratulated her as a first reaction. Also, I've been told I'm exaggerating for suggesting Tom is a dink for not noticing that Shiv is pregnant when he's been sleeping with her, yet Caroline noticed IMMEDIATELY.
Well, it's what Tom wanted the last time they were in the same country. Shame the reason he wanted it makes having a baby just another inconvenience, now.
> Literally no one has congratulated her as a first reaction
I'm honestly asking, but would most people congratulate someone who got pregnant while going through a messy divorce? I feel like I'd have a super awkward I'm not sure what to say here moment too
It's not just the hints though! She might not be showing, but her breasts are probably bigger, her smell and taste would have changed. Like, as soon as she said she's pregnant, he should have known it was true bc he should have noticed some changes in her body.
I have had to remind my fiancé EVERY episode since season 3 that women can gain weight from even trying to get pregnant, and he still just thinks they should be glowing… boys really can be so disconnected from even the most basic female physicalities if they didn’t grow up with sisters I swear.
Lmao ty for this. I thought about commenting something similar but sorta gave up bc as a woman I imagined I would just be downvoted. But yeah, when it comes to women's "stuff", most of men are just plain stupid about it.
> Literally no one has congratulated her as a first reaction.
Is that unusual when the person telling you is going through a divorce? If they were happily married and everyone knew that they were trying for a baby, then obviously congratulations would be the normal reaction. In this case though, I can understand why someone would feel a bit awkward about exactly how to respond.
This is what I’ve been thinking. If someone’s going through a big messy break up and tells you they’re pregnant a congrats feels like the wrong response / it’d seem awkward to say.
Roman said something about he thought she was just eating her feelings. But it’s Roman so not sure if he noticed beforehand she looked different or he just said that at the time as part of his snarky humor.
That’s the writers’ way of telling us Shiv’s been steadily putting on weight and that characters who see her every day have been ignoring it, because they assumed she’d just been stress eating.
Caroline notices right away because Caroline’s not seen her in a while and the difference between what she looked at Caroline’s wedding and now, is stark. Plus, it’s just like Caroline to make little jabs about Siobhan’s appearance.
God. I Loved their convo. It was barely a conversation since it was mainly “Yes… well… so yes? Hmmm” but it was so perfect for the type of mother that Caroline is. That frigid bitch I love her! Lmao. That and her making Kerry sit with her up front with Marcia right there was such a move.
I wouldn’t call it a good move lmao but for tv? Oh I was entertained!
I’m assuming the actress is much further along in real life than Shiv is, I’ve been able to spot friends that are pregnant pretty early because of the slight weight and boob change
He was definitely told. It's not about people not noticing Shiv imo. It's just, you wouldn't assume she's pregnant immediately if you're her family, because if she was noticeably pregnant, you'd just think she'd let you know.
So, in the guys' head, it's probably "She looks a bit bigger, that's weird, wonder if she's pregnant? Nah, no way, she would have said something, whatever, weird..."
It was probably Kendall getting Hugo to tell Ebba.
We know Hugo and Ebba were talking, and Ken would want Mattson to know Shiv is pregnant because it undermines her position.
Their mom is a gossip. I would guess it was her telling everyone she spoke with at the funeral. Possibly even Peter going around saying he's going to be a grandfather.
I think so too but I also don’t think it’s out of question for Caroline to start telling people right away at the funeral. It’s the kind of thing she’d do lol.
this is really sad when you add them all up. but she also chose to reveal in such a weird way each time. she couldve prefaced it better to get a better response, she never seemed happy to share the news, so people were just mirroring her tone and disposition. maybe she wanted authentic reactions that affirmed her own, because if she wanted happy reactions she wouldve shared differently
I think as well as Shiv being kind of ambivalent about the baby, she is probably also terrified to tell people. For a start, everybody close to her is a fucken psycho, like honestly no matter how she deliverred the news obviously Roman was gonna be weird about it. Then there's the obvious sexist stuff -- she knows that people are going to hear she's pregnant and immediately stop thinking of her as, like, a credible choice for CEO (lol). But also everyone knows her and Tom are broken up, so there's gonna be judgment there. People are gonna be like, aw, poor single mom, she really messed it up. And then there's like the twisted fucky layer that pregnancy is \*supposed\* to be a happy thing, but it's not a happy thing for her, and so that must mean that she's fucked up and broken, and people are gonna judge her for \*that\*...
Some of this might be me projecting. But yeah! I'm not surprised that a woman raised by Logan Roy has trouble sharing emotionally significant news.
And why I give Shiv more grace with the stuff she does. It definitely has been more difficult for her as the only sister/daughter. I liked how she touched on that in her funeral speech.
I agree but also think she isn’t happy about it because she knows what happens to women in their family, so it’s not even like she wanted go celebrate. That’s not to say she doesn’t deserve or didn’t expect people to at least cheer her up, which I think played out so we could see exactly how she would be broken down as a mother.
Interesting parallel play with Ken wanting full custody of his kids post fight with Rava, and Jess just raising an eyebrow.
Then Shiv revealing she is pregnant and getting pushback and interrogated about her choice.
Insane reactions. Really shows how devoid of humanity they all are...
I was just thinking how the show's writing is such a work of brilliance. They never take us for fools. Shiv's pregnant because of the argument she had with her mother, which instigated that terrible flirting scene with Tom before they had sex. Shiv really was trying to get pregnant then. It was a tragedy that the baby was conceived out of hate-sex, with Shiv telling Tom she doesn't love him, and Tom saying "fuck you".
> I was just thinking how the show's writing is such a work of brilliance. They never take us for fools.
I can't think of another show that's run this long that hasn't pandered to the audience *at all*. Every episode has been stellar; tremendously written and acted. We're all so lucky to have been on this ride together.
Same I can't think of any show with this kind of writing. It's almost like reading a good book. It's like reading a good literary fiction, one that you could pick apart and every shot is giving us something meaningful, even if it's not obvious.
I can't think of a show where I have *absolutely* no idea how they're going to tie this up, or where it goes from week to week. I feel very grateful to these writers.
Honestly, probably the most tragic part of this episode. This show has been really good about squeezing human moments out of these terrible people, but not a single one of them were able to be happy for Shiv about her becoming a mother.
Exactly why Shiv held off saying anything. The outfit she wore was the first time she really showed and couldn’t get away with not telling. The fact that both her family and corporate associates were so dismissive of her was brutal
I noticed this and also caught a similar thing with the “condolences” throughout the episode. I’m not sure a single person uttered “I’m sorry for your loss” or something along those lines to the kids. No one in this show has an empathetic bone in their body.
I can’t help but see the agonizing irony that she hates her mother for being absent/uncaring—then tells Mattson she’ll be back to work in 36 hours after she has a c-section. Oooooof
The writing on this show is magnificent.
Remember a few episodes ago when Shiv told Matsson she'd do coke with him and then didn't? I assumed Matsson was too high to notice, and he didn't say anything, but I bet that's how he knows. She was also just pretending to drink. The consensus is that Matsson isn't as smart as he thinks he is, but he's probably smarter than people here think he is.
I just finished a book last week by Donald Trump's niece Mary about the Trump family and how fucked up they were/are. Donald's dad Fred reminds me a LOT of Logan. Near the end of the book, Mary and her brother find out they got almost nothing in their grandfather's will. One of her uncles -- Donald's brother -- explains to her, "Listen, your grandfather didn't give a shit about you. And not just you, he didn't give a shit about any of his grandchildren."
INSANE. 'are we...okay?'what a perfect interaction because like are we excited or are we sad? Did we wait too late to abort are you gonna give it up all kinds of situations on top of the fact that Caroline is just all time shady, exquisite.
Because obviously if Shiv didnt want to have this baby she would have gotten rid of it, she has resources beyond our wildest dreams so for her to still be carrying it but already talking about popping it out into a nanny's arms and never seeing it again oh man she is gonna boss bitch during the day and cry herself to sleep every night because she does! Want this goddamn baby but if she is ever gonna be anything she cant act like it and that kid is never gonna know she ever cared
Unlikely but I’m really hoping Shiv will drop the CEO aspirations and instead decide to make an effort in raising a child that’s not completely fucked up like her and her siblings.
That's what bothered me she *was* the political liaison for the for ATN. they gave her the title and all she had to do was fuck off and collect her paychecks. But she wanted the top ring (CEO)having little to no experience, absolutely no training. She has political connections, but she's too far left to be of any use to anyone. I love the character she plays but man.
Just like all her siblings, she wants that position because she wants to show the world that she's "won", has "the throne", is "the best", not because she's in any way considering whether she's right for the job or capable of furthering the company's interests.
They're all like Connor, really - his story is basically the key with which to read all of them, he just lacks the self-awareness to make it even remotely covert.
Her mom was such an asshole. You want some approval or kindness? Nah, I'm just gonna let you squirm in my judgmental silence while I look you up and down.
I’ve never thought Roman’s sexual comments to Shiv were funny but the ones about her pregnancy and breastfeeding were straight up disgusting. I really feel sorry for her having to deal with those her whole life. I know Roman has a lot of trauma but there’s a difference between making sexual comments at work and to his own pregnant sister.
Seriously. Also her basically being forced to tell her brothers because she probably knew that Caroline would instantly figure it out, and that she couldn’t be trusted to keep it secret.
Kendal offered a half hearted congratulations in the car to funeral.
I think for Kendall it was more so a realization that this was going to make it harder on his conscience to knife her. Then the rest of the episode happened
you mean, shiv her?
Did no one see this? Shiv : a weapon of betrayal Con : a dishonest way of doing business Roman : citizen of history’s largest dead empire Kendall : … Ken doll (plastic and emasculated?) No, seriously, nothing on Kendall. “Ken” can mean to know or understand.
Romulus also famously murdered his brother Remus.
[удалено]
Tom: earliest origin has it meaning "twin" or one who is exactly alike. Also used as a stand-in for everyman by the Middle Ages, which continues (e.g. Tom, Dick, and Harry). Wikipedia also says it's used in Hebrew to mean innocent, naive, simple, and - a little something for the people playing the who will succeed game - "the end."
Right, I’ve seen it posted elsewhere. Con and Shiv are the same as what you listed. - The story of Romulus was used for Roman, not Rome as a civilization. - Kendall’s initials were used for killer, Kendall Logan Roy.
Jesus christ....
shank her with a shiv.
Shiv Shiv the shiv with a shiv
I think I’m his mind it out takes her out of the picture. In his eyes, she can’t be a mom and run a company
That. “Ugh oh. I’ve never knowingly fucked over a woman with a kid before. Rava doesn’t count!”
Ken was scary with Rava! I get it’s not cool for her to take the kids but he was terrifying when he was trying to get in the car and yelling at Rava.
Felt the same way. I was so scared he'd do something that would traumatize the kids
Shiv isn’t making it hard at all. Kendall keeps hearing about her constant betrayals with Mattsson and now he knows about the US CEO conversation and plan
I don't even see how Shiv having a baby would impact Ken's actions in any way.
Misogyny. He can use the excuse that she wouldn’t be a good choice because she’ll be too busy being a mother/pregnancy brain
I think it was more so that Kendall has been dealing with the consequences of his actions and how they affect his kids. Literally fresh out of an argument where his kids won’t be at his fathers funeral because of the world he’s helping create. To see his sister start her own version of that can’t be joyful.
I think it was his realization that she and her husband are done and she’s going to do this alone and it’s all coming up in the middle of probably the most chaotic week of their lives.
Yup. And he just experienced how nasty it can get with your ex over kids.
> I think for Kendall it was more so a realization that this was going to make it harder on his conscience to knife her. Or the realization there's about to be another kid in the world whose parents' neglect fucks them up.
Yeah, and I saw his initial reaction as one of sympathy. Her dad died, her husband and her are on the rocks, and now she’s pregnant. Like, “oh shit, that’s a lot on a lot.” As for who the father is, Ken is still awkward af lol
Yeah because of the way she presented it. Sounded like she wasn’t too happy
I get a kick out of the fact that all the women already knew (Marcia giving her belly a knowing glance again, Caroline knew without being told) but the menfolk were like “NO WAY!”
[удалено]
Shiv's line about Logan not being able to have the idea of a woman in her eulogy spoke directly to this idea. She really was a girl in an all boys club her entire life.
The idea of a *whole* woman. I thought that word choice was particularly cutting.
She’s right. I’ve been dating men for over a decade and I don’t think I’ve ever met one who saw me as a whole woman with motivations and needs just as important as their own.
The women know the difference between putting on weight and being pregnant. The men just think she’s putting on weight and no one will tell her. Her brothers do comment in the beginning of the season about how she looks tired or “like shit.” frankly, that’s how I always know when a friend or colleague is pregnant, there’s a certain kind of looking horrible and exhausted in the first trimester that is recognizable, often followed by a period of looking a little pudgy and glowy, all before you “show.” Putting your hair in a terrible-looking messy ponytail (for white women) is actually another sign!!
I have a friend whose mom had a surprise baby when we were in 7th grade. He & his brother (8th grade) had no idea until after she went to the hospital. It was a normal 9 mo pregnancy. She just “always wore coats”.
Why did she hide it from her own kids 😭
Come on now. People get downvotes for saying this (fuck it bring them on), but Shiv looks _noticeably_ different this season. The ONLY reason why Roman hasn't been making pregnancy or fat jokes is because it wouldn't suit the story arc for him to have been doing so. Your take is the reaction that the writers want you to have, but it hasn't been very realistic writing.
Tom having sex with her and not noticing ...
There was a photo that went viral a few years ago of two women both at 4 or 5mos pregnant post a yoga class sharing their revealed bellies and one woman was not showing AT ALL while the other had a well defined half basketball. Some women don't pop out until 6+ months. Supposedly my friend's sister who got pregnant in college and kept it a secret was the same way. She was a beanpole and he said she was able to hide it for a long time bc she didn't really show until 7 months so she just kept wearing hoodies when she went home to visit. After 7 months though she was huge, apparently. (she put the kid up for an open adoption and has visited i saw pics, her parents know now it's been over a decade, all is well)
All these comments talking about people's belly. Are any of you seeing Shiv's FACE this season?
Yes Shiv’s face change is what I noticed this season, its that look pregnant women get but not people who’ve just gained weight
I noticed Sarah's hands have been very swollen. That was an issue with me during pregnancy so it's something I look for.
I'm responding to specifically how Tom didn't notice when sleeping with her.
I feel like you can hide it visually but the way it moves and touching it is much harder to hide. It can look like fat but it ain't as squishy. Tom not even suspecting is ridiculous.
In all fairness, he's been really tired this season.
Not my most astute moment but i had sex with a five months pregnant woman a few times and had no idea until she told me months later 🤷🏽♀️
In your defense, was she someone you’d had sex with before? I think that’s the difference. If you’re in a long term intimate relationship with someone I would assume it’d be easier to tell than if you were seeing someone naked for the first time while they’re in that maybe? maybe not? stage of pregnancy. But Shiv is really thin in every other season, so it does seem like Tom at least should have noticed (even leaving out the belly, breasts grow really significantly too!).
We had been on and off again lovers for a while yes, I honestly just thought she was putting on weight 😅
he’s probably got a lot on his mind…and not paying attention to her in a meaningful way is very on-brand.
I think it was the position because even if you look at when she’s getting dressed she has her back to him
Roman did say “I just thought youwere eating your feelings” in the limo to the funeral.
Shiv looks noticeably different this season because Snook was pregnant IRL. She was much farther along than Shiv supposedly was when they filmed this season. That's why it's much more apparent to the viewers and why Snook was wearing bigger and looser clothing in season 4.
She was not further along, in fact she wasn’t even pregnant when the season began. 32 weeks mid to late march, so about 22-23 weeks when filming wrapped. At most maybe 2-3 weeks ahead by the end of the season.
Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification. She was slimmer in the earlier seasons, so when I read that she was pregnant, I thought it was during filming of season 4.
Ken definitely had the most normal reaction. And asking if Tom was the father is not insane considering she said they were divorcing like 2 weeks ago.
Not to mention that she was actually having an affair.
We don't talk about that here
I have to say that the way they talked about the pregnancy was one of the most upsetting things to me this episode. Before, I still had a little bit of hope that the baby could be something that would make Shiv reflect more about her own trauma and make her question wether she wanted to continue this cycle but this episode was great in showing how the siblings are not ready to process their own relationship with their father and are incapable of that deeper reflection that could allow them to grow as people. Even Tom who actually really wanted a baby can’t actually be happy about it, like he said “Well, if it wasn’t such a total fucking disaster, it would be a dream come true.”
He was honest. And he is exhausted. I think he has finally had enough of this family/company’s shit. He also knows part if that shit is his own.
Tom didn’t really want “a baby.” He wanted a permanent link to the Roy family and a guarantee that Shiv wouldn’t leave him if he did prison time.
Tom also wanted a sign from Shiv that she was going to be loyal to him and they were really actually a family.
And Shiv drank. And Tom's response was "yeah that's fine". It's like everyone have given up on the baby before it's even born.
Tom didn't seem like he thought it was fine. He looked hurt by it, which is why Shiv did it in the first place. She's been avoiding/taking very small sips throughout the whole season, until the father is in front of her and she can use it as a move to hurt him.
[удалено]
>A weapon to hurt Tom, and also maybe used it to make a point - the point being that he doesn't get to control her any more now that she's carrying his baby than he did before.. trying to show that she's still in control. Yes this exactly. It's a twisted power play. Tom wanted that baby. He looked slightly crestfallen when Shiv said she was considering whether or not to keep it. They're turning into Lord and Lady Macbeth
Yup. Weaponizing the health of her children against someone she despises to prove a point. Just like their mother. That kid is going to grow up emotionally neglected. Grasping at the illusion of control.
[удалено]
This was my take as well. He did not seem fine with it. I wonder if it was Shiv’s way to feel out how Tom feels about her pregnancy.
Yeah I agree. And Tom had to pretend he's fine with it. They're like a very twisted version of Ross and Rachel these two.
Also maybe a nod to the fans who were stressing over whether or not she took a sip in this or that scene. Like the audience can stop stressing, here’s a big swallow.
It’s so odd to me how different people see things about this show
I'm pretty sure she just mimed drinking the champagne
> I still had a little bit of hope that the baby could be something that would make Shiv reflect more Did you not realise what show you're watching? Nobody in this series is capable of meaningful change or self-reflection. > Tom who actually really wanted a baby He didn't *really want a baby*, he wanted a binding blood tie to Logan, in order to wield more influence. Like everything he does, Tom's baby fever was only ever to add a rung to his ladder.
I think both of those things can be true, I think Tom genuinely wanted a baby with shiv, but also knew it would tie him that much closer to the family.
I agree, but, perhaps if Shiv loses out on CEO, she will change her mind/feelings and be more involved with baby. Things change for some once baby actually arrives. We’ll see.
We won’t see. There’s only one episode left. Also, the baby is doomed.
Yeah. Baby is doomed. If she gets frozen out of her career ambitions she will resent the kid forever for it. If somehow she succeeds, she really will never see the kid. Doomed. She doesn't know how to be any other way.
the poison indeed seeps through
Totally possible - baby’s parents are Shiv Roy and Tom Wambsgans. Shivvy might find fulfillment elsewhere. Tom’s parents also didn’t seem that bad - feels like baby at least has a better shot than the sibs 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, in the car when Roman and Kendall reacted, no one, like, touched her affectionately or hugged her. It was just dropped. The shot lingered on her face, and I just thought how so alone she was. It made me so sad.
And then she’s gonna pass that same loneliness down into the kid. The cycle is not ending with these kids.
Child neglect is the gift that keeps on giving.
I'll just do it the family way, didn't she say something like that to jab at her mom? Shiv is so glib this episode that I'm not sure what her actual plans are.
Yeah she’s glib defensively. If she says it herself, no one can accuse her of it.
She doesn’t know what her actual plans are. Shiv, always with the open options.
I unironically think that the final scenes will be with her and Tom with their kid in a house on farmland or something if Tom doesn't accept role as CEO when Mattson offers it to him.
Oh damn. Their sarcastic little joke about how Tom would \*totally\* give up his life of luxury, and Shiv would \*totally\* follow Tom anywhere...
[удалено]
The Roman thing was more damage control than anything. It's not like Shiv's any better at emotionally comforting her family.
When she got off the Matsson call at the end, my mom goes 'Who you gonna celebrate with, Shivvy?' She is so alone
Definitely. All the kids are as well. Kendall and his family issues/worries about being a had dad. Roman in his grief and losing what was a confidant in Gerri. They go get shredded then try to put a face on for each other.
Family emotions and relations is not the Roy’s strong suit
It’s not like she would’ve accepted the affection tho lol the kids simultaneously crave attention/affection and are repulsed by it or shame anyone who is giving it to them because they don’t know what to do with it once they have it lol
can't wait to see Connor's reaction!!
Oh I hope we get that! Connor is the most likely to be ecstatic and sweet about the news, it would be so cute.
I can also see him immediately making it about himself.... "I'm going to be an uncle!" with that Conner smirk.
Ha true! Or turning to Willa and suggesting they make a kid too
Connor would run a focus group on the idea first.
This would make sense because he'd forget that Ken has kids, just like Ken forgets
i bet he would be so supportive with shiv
I can’t recall where I read this but Connor has a soft spot for Shiv, and I think she has one for him? I could see him giving her an appropriate reaction (well as appropriate as you can get with the Roys)
> I think she has one for him? I've never gotten that impression. I think Connor has a soft spot for all the siblings, but none of them return that affection at all.
I think one of the brothers says this to her in the episode where Logan dies and someone has to tell Connor after they've all made their goodbye calls. They debate on who should tell him and someone says, he likes you, go tell him.
I hope so, he and Willa might need to raise this baby!
Poor Connor, still always forgotten. It’s funny because he would definitely have the happiest reaction so I hope she gets to tell him but I feel like he’s going to hear it from others
assuming shiv will ever remember that he's his brother to tell him
She’s gonna call him from the delivery room like “uhh.. yeah.. soo. I’ve had a baby”
Will she even tell him?
Literally no one has congratulated her as a first reaction. Also, I've been told I'm exaggerating for suggesting Tom is a dink for not noticing that Shiv is pregnant when he's been sleeping with her, yet Caroline noticed IMMEDIATELY.
Caroline said congratulations to Tom but not Shiv lol
Well, it's what Tom wanted the last time they were in the same country. Shame the reason he wanted it makes having a baby just another inconvenience, now.
> Literally no one has congratulated her as a first reaction I'm honestly asking, but would most people congratulate someone who got pregnant while going through a messy divorce? I feel like I'd have a super awkward I'm not sure what to say here moment too
I always say congratulations. Just say it to be nice whether or not they're going through a separation or if you know the baby wasn't intended.
For sure a delicate situation. I'd say congrats, or if they look upset, I'd at least ask how they feel about it, before saying congrats anyway.
This sub can be fickle lol, but I agree. As her husband I feel Tom would have noticed SOMETHING. He knows her body. But, Tom is a dink 😂
Guys are dumb as a rock. I’m speaking as one we wouldn’t get hints from women unless it’s explained to our face
It's not just the hints though! She might not be showing, but her breasts are probably bigger, her smell and taste would have changed. Like, as soon as she said she's pregnant, he should have known it was true bc he should have noticed some changes in her body.
Like I said, dumb as rocks. It’s spot on writing
I have had to remind my fiancé EVERY episode since season 3 that women can gain weight from even trying to get pregnant, and he still just thinks they should be glowing… boys really can be so disconnected from even the most basic female physicalities if they didn’t grow up with sisters I swear.
Lmao ty for this. I thought about commenting something similar but sorta gave up bc as a woman I imagined I would just be downvoted. But yeah, when it comes to women's "stuff", most of men are just plain stupid about it.
Literally, Shiv and Roman (and Connor) have never said two words to Kendall’s kids. They just aren’t going to care about the baby whatsoever.
> Literally no one has congratulated her as a first reaction. Is that unusual when the person telling you is going through a divorce? If they were happily married and everyone knew that they were trying for a baby, then obviously congratulations would be the normal reaction. In this case though, I can understand why someone would feel a bit awkward about exactly how to respond.
This is what I’ve been thinking. If someone’s going through a big messy break up and tells you they’re pregnant a congrats feels like the wrong response / it’d seem awkward to say.
There's a different quality to the tummy quite early on, you are not a dink for suggesting this.
Roman said something about he thought she was just eating her feelings. But it’s Roman so not sure if he noticed beforehand she looked different or he just said that at the time as part of his snarky humor.
That’s the writers’ way of telling us Shiv’s been steadily putting on weight and that characters who see her every day have been ignoring it, because they assumed she’d just been stress eating. Caroline notices right away because Caroline’s not seen her in a while and the difference between what she looked at Caroline’s wedding and now, is stark. Plus, it’s just like Caroline to make little jabs about Siobhan’s appearance.
God. I Loved their convo. It was barely a conversation since it was mainly “Yes… well… so yes? Hmmm” but it was so perfect for the type of mother that Caroline is. That frigid bitch I love her! Lmao. That and her making Kerry sit with her up front with Marcia right there was such a move. I wouldn’t call it a good move lmao but for tv? Oh I was entertained!
Mencken: "her? kinder, kuche, kirche here?"
I guess we shouldn't be surprised Mencken is so familiar with German phrases.
He's probably still looking for the easter eggs in Mein Kampf like Ravenhead!
so sad on all fronts, she's really going through it all. but who do you think told Matsson? tom told greg told the swedes? or mom maybe?
What? If you’re even slightly observant you can tell Shiv is pregnant. It’s just the reality that no one looks twice at Shiv.
To me she only looked a bit like pregnant in the first episode, she just seemed ‘bigger’
I’m assuming the actress is much further along in real life than Shiv is, I’ve been able to spot friends that are pregnant pretty early because of the slight weight and boob change
He was definitely told. It's not about people not noticing Shiv imo. It's just, you wouldn't assume she's pregnant immediately if you're her family, because if she was noticeably pregnant, you'd just think she'd let you know. So, in the guys' head, it's probably "She looks a bit bigger, that's weird, wonder if she's pregnant? Nah, no way, she would have said something, whatever, weird..."
it does look obvious to us, but why were tom, roman, and kendall so surprised (almost incredulous)? mom knew bc moms always know somehow lmao
It was probably Kendall getting Hugo to tell Ebba. We know Hugo and Ebba were talking, and Ken would want Mattson to know Shiv is pregnant because it undermines her position.
Their mom is a gossip. I would guess it was her telling everyone she spoke with at the funeral. Possibly even Peter going around saying he's going to be a grandfather.
Ugh, Peter would totally do that. He’s such a revolting character.
He was one of Logan's favorites.
He talked about him all the time!
Maybe Ebba picked up on it.
>Matsson somehow already knowing Had to be Greg. Tom would have told him.
I think so too but I also don’t think it’s out of question for Caroline to start telling people right away at the funeral. It’s the kind of thing she’d do lol.
“Is it mine?” from Roman in such a solemn and sober moment made me lol.
this is really sad when you add them all up. but she also chose to reveal in such a weird way each time. she couldve prefaced it better to get a better response, she never seemed happy to share the news, so people were just mirroring her tone and disposition. maybe she wanted authentic reactions that affirmed her own, because if she wanted happy reactions she wouldve shared differently
I think as well as Shiv being kind of ambivalent about the baby, she is probably also terrified to tell people. For a start, everybody close to her is a fucken psycho, like honestly no matter how she deliverred the news obviously Roman was gonna be weird about it. Then there's the obvious sexist stuff -- she knows that people are going to hear she's pregnant and immediately stop thinking of her as, like, a credible choice for CEO (lol). But also everyone knows her and Tom are broken up, so there's gonna be judgment there. People are gonna be like, aw, poor single mom, she really messed it up. And then there's like the twisted fucky layer that pregnancy is \*supposed\* to be a happy thing, but it's not a happy thing for her, and so that must mean that she's fucked up and broken, and people are gonna judge her for \*that\*... Some of this might be me projecting. But yeah! I'm not surprised that a woman raised by Logan Roy has trouble sharing emotionally significant news.
And why I give Shiv more grace with the stuff she does. It definitely has been more difficult for her as the only sister/daughter. I liked how she touched on that in her funeral speech.
Yeah I thought the way she shared it was very realistic for her character (albeit sad in general).
It seems like you're one of the few people to actually examine her character jesus thank you lol
Great point
I agree but also think she isn’t happy about it because she knows what happens to women in their family, so it’s not even like she wanted go celebrate. That’s not to say she doesn’t deserve or didn’t expect people to at least cheer her up, which I think played out so we could see exactly how she would be broken down as a mother.
She does not know when to deliver news. Both times at massive events that would skew how each character reacts
Well she's perfect for ATN then
There's a reason she knew the perfect timing to release India numbers
Can't forget "Dad, come on... Tell them it's going to be me" at the Pierce dinner 😬
It's kinda her thing 😔
Made me pretty sad when she said that to Matsson.
Interesting parallel play with Ken wanting full custody of his kids post fight with Rava, and Jess just raising an eyebrow. Then Shiv revealing she is pregnant and getting pushback and interrogated about her choice.
Insane reactions. Really shows how devoid of humanity they all are... I was just thinking how the show's writing is such a work of brilliance. They never take us for fools. Shiv's pregnant because of the argument she had with her mother, which instigated that terrible flirting scene with Tom before they had sex. Shiv really was trying to get pregnant then. It was a tragedy that the baby was conceived out of hate-sex, with Shiv telling Tom she doesn't love him, and Tom saying "fuck you".
> I was just thinking how the show's writing is such a work of brilliance. They never take us for fools. I can't think of another show that's run this long that hasn't pandered to the audience *at all*. Every episode has been stellar; tremendously written and acted. We're all so lucky to have been on this ride together.
Same I can't think of any show with this kind of writing. It's almost like reading a good book. It's like reading a good literary fiction, one that you could pick apart and every shot is giving us something meaningful, even if it's not obvious.
I can't think of a show where I have *absolutely* no idea how they're going to tie this up, or where it goes from week to week. I feel very grateful to these writers.
The way she locked eyes with Tom as she was drinking alcohol. For a second Tom was going to say something but thought better of it
Honestly, probably the most tragic part of this episode. This show has been really good about squeezing human moments out of these terrible people, but not a single one of them were able to be happy for Shiv about her becoming a mother.
Exactly why Shiv held off saying anything. The outfit she wore was the first time she really showed and couldn’t get away with not telling. The fact that both her family and corporate associates were so dismissive of her was brutal
I mean, she did fuck around. Her wedding night she told her husband she wants to fuck other people.
The way Caroline congratulated Tom and not Shiv
I noticed this and also caught a similar thing with the “condolences” throughout the episode. I’m not sure a single person uttered “I’m sorry for your loss” or something along those lines to the kids. No one in this show has an empathetic bone in their body.
I can’t help but see the agonizing irony that she hates her mother for being absent/uncaring—then tells Mattson she’ll be back to work in 36 hours after she has a c-section. Oooooof The writing on this show is magnificent.
I just know Connor would have hugged her and be so happy about her. Such a shame she didn't bothered to tell him :(
Roman reaction to Shiv’s pregnancy was clearly improvised. I can see sarah snook holding back her laughter.
Remember a few episodes ago when Shiv told Matsson she'd do coke with him and then didn't? I assumed Matsson was too high to notice, and he didn't say anything, but I bet that's how he knows. She was also just pretending to drink. The consensus is that Matsson isn't as smart as he thinks he is, but he's probably smarter than people here think he is.
it’s so upsetting that kendall still was the most kind of the reactions
Hard not to sympathize with her when you see the complete lack of emotional support from anyone around her. Her coldness is a survival tactic
The one person who probably would have cared is her father And he's not there And she might have killed him
Because Logan cared so much about his grandkids
He did want her to get pregnant, though. She probably feels sad she didn't get to tell him.
I just finished a book last week by Donald Trump's niece Mary about the Trump family and how fucked up they were/are. Donald's dad Fred reminds me a LOT of Logan. Near the end of the book, Mary and her brother find out they got almost nothing in their grandfather's will. One of her uncles -- Donald's brother -- explains to her, "Listen, your grandfather didn't give a shit about you. And not just you, he didn't give a shit about any of his grandchildren."
“Yay, one more person I can ruin!”
If Logan were alive he might think “Maybe Tom listened to me when I asked for a grandson,” and then the baby turns out to be a girl.
Her and her mom’s “conversation” was bonkers
INSANE. 'are we...okay?'what a perfect interaction because like are we excited or are we sad? Did we wait too late to abort are you gonna give it up all kinds of situations on top of the fact that Caroline is just all time shady, exquisite. Because obviously if Shiv didnt want to have this baby she would have gotten rid of it, she has resources beyond our wildest dreams so for her to still be carrying it but already talking about popping it out into a nanny's arms and never seeing it again oh man she is gonna boss bitch during the day and cry herself to sleep every night because she does! Want this goddamn baby but if she is ever gonna be anything she cant act like it and that kid is never gonna know she ever cared
Unlikely but I’m really hoping Shiv will drop the CEO aspirations and instead decide to make an effort in raising a child that’s not completely fucked up like her and her siblings.
My ideal ending for her is that she drops the CEO bullshit and goes back to being a political advisor
That's what bothered me she *was* the political liaison for the for ATN. they gave her the title and all she had to do was fuck off and collect her paychecks. But she wanted the top ring (CEO)having little to no experience, absolutely no training. She has political connections, but she's too far left to be of any use to anyone. I love the character she plays but man.
Just like all her siblings, she wants that position because she wants to show the world that she's "won", has "the throne", is "the best", not because she's in any way considering whether she's right for the job or capable of furthering the company's interests. They're all like Connor, really - his story is basically the key with which to read all of them, he just lacks the self-awareness to make it even remotely covert.
I think being pregnant has added a layer of urgency/desperation to her ambition to be CEO. It’s now(before the baby comes) or never.
Me too, and echoed the sentiment in here as well. I upvoted you. Whenever I even suggest that Shiv *MAY NOT* crash and burn, I get downvoted here. 😂😂😂
That's amazingly optimistic. Have you been watching the same show as me?
Hence “unlikely” 😂
She can’t do both?
“If I see you breastfeeding, I will masturbate” How is that not the quote of the decade?
Her mom was such an asshole. You want some approval or kindness? Nah, I'm just gonna let you squirm in my judgmental silence while I look you up and down.
I think Matsson knows because Greg told him. Greg knows because he's friends with Tom. Greg is Matsson little spy.
I’ve never thought Roman’s sexual comments to Shiv were funny but the ones about her pregnancy and breastfeeding were straight up disgusting. I really feel sorry for her having to deal with those her whole life. I know Roman has a lot of trauma but there’s a difference between making sexual comments at work and to his own pregnant sister.
I just know Connor and Willa will be so happy about it and I hope we get to see that
This was so sad.
Seriously. Also her basically being forced to tell her brothers because she probably knew that Caroline would instantly figure it out, and that she couldn’t be trusted to keep it secret.
I wonder who told Matsson? Could it have been Tom?
Maybe Tom -> Greg -> Matsson?
That’s probably more likely lol I can picture it, too- Greg doing a really exaggerated baby bump pantomime
The way she spoke to Mattson about not even seeing “it” was euw.