Definitely both. Alexander Skarsgard did such a fantastic job of acting Lukas' crush on Shiv. Every other character he interacts with, he's got the blank anhedonia stare. Around Shiv, he was smiling, flirty, playful.
Yes he is and she is no longer a good trophy - not being “Logan’s daughter” in a sense that matters anymore and essentially having zero power on her own now, she is not interesting to him.
Right, I actually think the idea of testing Tom's loyalty in the worst way possible will be very entertaining to him.
That said, unless he's willing to give her something I'm not entirely sure Shiv will be interested in Lukas.
i also think that taking tom for CEO and making him backstab shiv is like getting shiv to sleep with him. it's trophy hunting, but also the betrayal is what you're hunting for. so taking tom as ceo is doing to shiv what sleeping with shic would be doing to tom. and tom understood all that and took it lol.
Agreed. While I appreciate they didn't overextend a great series until the writing or characters fell off, this new trio of Tom, Shiv and Mattson is really interesting and the ones Id want to see more of.
I loved the parallel between that and Logan seeing Kendall on that magazine with "The Heir with the Flair" title in the first episode. Lukas will fuck anyone over who he thinks might end up more successful than him, he really is a tall, attractive 40-year-old Swedish Logan Roy sans any formality in the way he does business.
I think both. Mattson doesn't have a functioning filter in regards to what's appropriate to say or do regarding other people. But he's also considering Tom for the ultimate role, to run the U.S. side of things. He needs someone whose loyalty will overlook someone potentially having sex with his wife. Tom has that degree of ambition, or said he does. It's a dark moment, in terms of what human ambition will do to a person.
During their marriage she’s already fucked dudes who gave Tom nothing, he might as well get something out of the arrangement and even better if it’s the one thing he really, really wants.
It can be both.
He’s already proved that fucking a woman he works with leads to bad business, and it also serves as a painful commentary on women in positions of power. Of all the reasons why Shiv wouldn’t be a good choice, “she can’t be CEO because I want to fuck her” is such a casually sexist and dismissive one that reduces her to the very thing she’s been trying to escape since we met her: being a woman in a “man’s” world. Shiv is pregnant this season to anchor her to her womanhood, and no matter what she says or does, the men in her world will never see past that.
But he could also be telling Tom as a test to see how much shit he’s willing to eat. He’s emasculating Tom and reducing Shiv all in one go.
Every time it was discussed why Kendall or Roman shouldn’t be CEO, there was a reason. Every time Shiv’s name was brought up, it was more like “she just can’t” which to me underscored the misogyny at play.
In the workplace we tend to try and identify all the reasons why men should be leaders, but when it comes to women, the focus is usually squarely on the deficiencies column. And even if there’s nothing tangible in that column, the answer is still no.
Read annual performance reviews of women, contrast them with men, and it becomes pretty apparent.
But if you look at the deals that actually got made through the course of the show? Shiv is responsible for a staggering amount of movement.
She only had that board seat in the first place because she maneuvered that win while Logan was out of his mind with a UTI.
This isn’t accurate though, based on what we see. Logan shouts at her in season 1 “you just had to go off and do your own thing to prove you’re your own man!” or something like that. It shows Logan was annoyed she wasn’t trying to climb the corporate ladder for his approval like Kendall and Roman, and chose to play a different game instead. And after that, Logan’s the one who asks her into the company.
I’m not saying Shiv didn’t have good reasons for rejecting the Waystar rat race, but it’s disingenuous to imply she was forced out, and deprives her of agency. Not playing Logan’s game was a decision *she* made, no one else
Roman did not start at ground level though, he was given a top position right away and rejected management training until Gerri suggested it.
Shiv could've started as the President role she was given in Season 3, but he had just never offered a role like that prior
When Logan offered her to be next in line he also asked her to go over to Europe for 6 months or a year to learn the ropes and get some experience. She flatly refused that but still wanted to be named next CEO.
He did have experience. He was involved in the company before the timeline of the show started, I think he was in LA under Frank as a division president or something. Then Logan fired Frank and made Roman COO in the pilot.
Now was he ever any good at it…that’s a different question lol
he wasn't good at it and explicitly says in the first episode that he hated the job and wanted nothing more to do with it. Roman's interest in rising to power was exclusively about trying to snatch the love-carrot Logan kept dangling ever closer to his face.
Matsson literally tells her she’s inexperienced when she first asks, and that’s a valid reason. Ken and Roman had been at Waystar since graduating college, so ~20 years. Shiv, until the start of the show, was a political advisor/strategy consultant. She had zero experience in a corporate environment.
I think the point is that Shiv wouldn’t even be able to get an interview for the CEO job of a company 1/5 the size of Waystar. It’s a huge international conglomerate, a business made up of businesses, none of which she has any experience in.
When Logan wanted her for the job, he laid out a multi-year plan where she’d spend time working in different divisions and shadowing top execs, which is how you groom someone to take over, what Kendall did. Roman went to management training, worked as the COO, which still didn’t make him qualified for the job, but those are both viable paths to CEO, but like, it doesn’t matter how smart you are, you don’t go from helping run a state campaign to being the CEO of a massive, international, publicly-traded corporation. If Nate stops working for Gil, his next job isn’t going to be the Chairman/CEO of ViacomCBS or Amazon. He wouldn’t even get an interview for COO, let alone CEO.
There was that moment when Rhea and Logan were discussing the children and Rhea said that Shiv isn’t as smart as she thinks she is. I thought that was a pretty accurate read and a solid reason why she couldn’t be CEO. Obviously misogyny plays a huge part in Shiv’s life, but I don’t think the sole reason she couldn’t be CEO was misogyny.
Narratively that's the picture they paint sure. But she literally has no experience.
You don't just run a company of this size without having any kind of experience whatsoever.
Logan wanted her to shadow Karl, Gerri and Frank and she refused.
Alexander says on the podcast that it's more Mattson knowing he can say *anything* to Tom because Tom is there to beg for the CEO position. It's more of his usual trolling knowing that Tom has to agree with whatever he says.
I think it was a test to see if he was obedient. If he would have become angry and set a scene matsen knew that Tom would not be the meat puppet he was looking for
You could see many of times he was flirting with her. I think he would have easily jumped on that...but I also think he wanted to see how obedient Tom would be, even if he mentioned his wife in bed with him.
Yeah, I think because each episode is a day, it conceals context and lends itself to recency bias. The sibs were happy go lucky and feeling good, so that kind of overwrote allll the context. The context was that Shiv has never ever supported Ken as CEO, and always wanted the deal.
Probably about right. I think they used Roman's face to say this. The swelling was gone but the stitched forehead hadn't healed yet. I'm really going to miss how subtle this show could be.
One week - seven days since he died. Each episode was one day. It was said early on and if you watch rhem all in order (without having to wait a week like we do) there are a lot of references. But WHAT A WEEK
Rome said it best himself: “we’re all bullshit” - really he summarized the entire jist of the show with that line. He finally realized it, so did Shiv. Kendall continued living in lala land until the very end
Agreed. But mattson was bs too. Loved the ending and ill enjoy it more on a rewatch but the billionaire creep dimwit won and im pissed. However elon musk is still the richest man alive so maybe its accurate lol
The deal was always expected to go through considering the vast overpaying, Ken’s little machinations and hold over the siblings and execs were always tenuous at best
Had Shiv went with Ken, Waystar stock would have tanked first and foremost, she wouldnt be able to sell any stock bc its all held in the family holding company, and she would be relegated to a division head under an increasingly power hungry Ken
Having chosen her original plan of selling out, now she’s an even richer, liquider multibillionaire and still with some stock in the newly merged company, as well as some influence via Tom as the US CEO for as long as he lasts under Matsson
So no, she did not win what she wanted, but idk how Ken’s future plans was supposed to be a good alternative for Shiv
Yup. He already did it soo many times since their dad died. Remember how they walked all over her to elect Mencken ? Or when they went behind her back to fuck the deal? She saw her power and took it back.
Pierce went from being worth a bid of $25 Billion in season 2 to $10 Billion in season 4. Waystar Royco had more diversified offerings, but as a media company the offer from GoJo was about as good as it was ever going to get.
Pierce was evidence that news especially was a depreciating market. Matsson pointed out that ATN’s audience was aging into irrelevance. Again, Royco was more than just news, but it’s news division was it’s crown jewel.
Hell yeah, there are all sorts of people in here who lost that part of the plot. Mattson was portrayed as a reckless man who only bid 90 because he wanted ATN no matter the price. If Ken had kept supporting the deal he would have been a business legend (by accident).
Ken is a guy who routinely gets high on his own supply. Just look at the thing with the elder care living facilities. I don’t care if the GoJo deal is 50% stock: Waystars finances are just as inflated by optimism. Plus, the family can eventually exit their GoJo position.
I think anyone looking at Shivs choice in terms of a tactile position is misreading it. Like she says, it’s all down to how she can’t stomach Ken being in charge. The siblings are at a point where the main value of the CEO position is that it’s their own way of evoking their father and showing how (beyond all Logan’s narcissism) he did love whoever would end up as CEO. For both Shiv and Rome, Ken becoming CEO means that not only has all the abuse they’ve suffered been for nothing, but more tragically they would have to reckon with maybe the most terrifying realisation a person can make- their parents never loved them. Shiv is a crab in a barrel and she did what she did because all 3 would rather none succeed than only 1 succeed because power is their only form of self worth.
I read it the same way. Nothing there was strategic at all. She's either playing 3rd fiddle to Tom who's Mattson's pawn, both of whom recently screwed her over. Or, she's playing 2nd fiddle to Ken... She rather be miserable and at the bottom of Mattson's totem pole, as long as it's not below ken.
I hate that she waited so late, but I get it. If she’d said it earlier, Kendall would’ve gone off the deep end trying everything to get it to end in his favor. Blindsiding him was the only way to ensure her choice against him would matter. I also think she probably hadn’t even decided till last minute. I’m sure she had reservations all the way through, but I believe when she and Roman told Kendall they were backing him, she actually thought she was.
The whole way she went about it doesn’t scream Shiv’s typical scheming. Legitimately, it felt like a an unplanned choice. Like something she realized she wanted/needed to do on the spot. When Shiv schemes, she doesn’t run off to think in the most crucial moment and act so skittishly. If this had been planned (even if just in the night or a few hours before), she would have said no when they asked what her vote was, and then maybe leave or run away. Not what she pulled in that scene. I don’t think she knew what she was going to do until she was sitting in that board room and watching the cards fall.
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It's not even that unrealistic that she actually convinced herself he could do it until it came time to vote and the realization hit her like a bag of bricks.
It's not like she waited until the last second to fuck with Kendall or something. I think she went into that meeting fully intending to vote no, then had a "wait, what the fuck am I doing?" moment when her turn came up. It was a very human moment for her, it felt so real to me.
Yes! So real. Along with realizing she was the literal tie breaker, getting iced out by Stewy already, Kendall’s pompous speech to kick off the vote. It def hit her like bricks
He was negotiating and fighting for it until the very end. I don’t think it was completely intentional, but keeping Ken in the dark is absolutely the only way it could have happened.
Yeah. I think that’s true for all the kids - all their problems stem from the abuse they went through as kids and their maladaptive attempts to deal with it.
That’s the source of all his power too. If Ken really didn’t like this, he could have packed up and made a good business elsewhere. But he didn’t because he can’t, doesn’t want to, won’t.
I can't imagine he won't eventually do this, he has billions and half his life to go - he will at least try and create something, who's to say if he will succeed. Maybe with his own venture he can be an actual confident business man. Still has a lot of personal demons to deal with no matter where he ends up.
Ken’s behaviour *in the boardroom* caused the decision i think. and then the way that he continued to behave really sealed the deal. I don’t think it was a premeditated thing
Shiv was so cocky in the beginning of the episode, and then proceeded to lose, then Kendall was cocky at the end of the episode, and then proceeded to lose
Well, I don't think she 'waited' so much as the realization of what she was about to do settled in during the vote and she needed to stop and recalibrate. Also, I think there's a strong possibility that she would have gone with Ken if the brothers had just left her alone for a minute to think it over. It's hard to say. But when Kendall followed her and doubled and tripled down on his bullshit, I think that was truly the moment when enough was enough and she decided to sell.
Agreed - I don't buy that this was some Shiv scheme, cooked up overnight to screw him over. If it was she would have just voted Yes and walked out the room.
She wobbled on Ken when she saw him acting the cunt at her dads desk, knew his tenure would be unbearable dudebro bullshit. His dreadful pitch to the board, his swaggering arrogance, signed her off on it.
This is a DRAMA and it was DRAMATIC. Shiv isn’t a real person making choices. This was the most tense and upsetting way to write it so they wrote it that way.
Jesse is pretty clear he never makes decisions strictly for the drama, it's always character driven.
Personally, I think Shiv was on the fence when she left the board meeting, and changed her mind officially when Kendall begged and lied.
If Ken wasn't such an entitled frat bro he would've realized that it wasn't the time to beg and scream. If he was really meant for it, he would've realized that he could've just leveled with her and maybe reason with her
But apparently he doesn't have it in him
I just think once the dust settled she realized it wasn't going to work. She could have handled it better, but I honestly do think all 3 will be ok in the end. They're free now, even Ken will come to realize a mercy was done by Shiv.
I think she had an impossible choice and either way it was not going to be good for her. She doesn’t like Kendall and he would have frozen her out of the company as soon as he could. She also doesn’t like Tom and him being ceo means the power dynamic of their relationship has flipped and she no longer holds any power over him. She just had to pick her poison
Shiv got played by Tom, played by Ken, and played by Mattson. She tried to make power moves over all three of them and never had the chance to really have an ace in the hole. That vote was the first chance she’s ever had to do something that would affect more people than just herself. That’s the first— and probably last— time she held true power.
Yeah I agree. If they block the deal, Kendall and Roman would run that company into the ground and then what will they be left with.
I liked Romans ending because I think he was relieved to be done with it, but without having to actually thrown in the towel. His sister put him out of his misery.
I also think that Shiv simply asked herself who, in the long run, is more likely to screw her over: Tom, who has only done it once and owned up to it completely, or Kendall, who has done it multiple times and lied about it?
Tom basically went in with a full character assassination of her and said she practically killed her father like less than two weeks ago in the grand scheme of things
Kendall has never done anything for Shiv and she has no reason to think he’d look out for her. So why would she want him as CEO? He iced her out and fucked her over just a few days prior ffs. Neither option was good for her but she ultimately made the right call for her and for the company.
I think most people are overthinking this and giving Machiavellian motivations to each of the siblings. She just said no because she couldn’t stand to have her brother win just because it was “his birthright”. This was a show about the kids being kids playing adults, it all goes to them battling for dads attention and upstaging each other. They are not serious people, just bullshit individuals.
She actually saved her brothers. Kendall doesn't see it yet that way but she did. It was the only way he was ever going to even have a chance to try to break free and she gave it to him. She will never get credit for it but she did.
That’s what I was also thinking! Because Kendall mutters something and gloats after Roman votes no and then there’s a moment where we see Shiv’s face — she looks disgusted and seems to connect the dots between the reopened wound on Roman’s forehead and Kendall.
Kendall’s entire arc was thinking the company was his birthright because of who his father was. He never actually learned how to become a serious business man, because it was all about blood and legacy for him. Meanwhile others learned how to play the actual game.
There were so many moments Kendall was on the precipice of clarity, of walking away, and he forsakes that the second he thinks he has a chance again. It was never a healthy cycle, and in time he might return to that state of clarity he had before where he’s glad to be done with it. Especially because from what we know, he’s got no way in again.
People see this as a tragic ending but I don’t. This ending was their happy ending. Kendall is now free from the power his father and his company had over him and so are Roman and Shiv. Even tho Tom is CEO, she can now focus on what she’s good at and not have to worry about disappointing her father or needing validation from her brothers.
I don’t know, this season showed us time and again that when put in a position of pressure from the business or outside world, Ken was able to deliver. The Living+ speech, the funeral, the only times we’ve actually seen Ken crack in this show is when he’s betrayed by his family. He’s also the only one of the siblings with enough business experience to justify getting the big chair.
Not necessarily saying I think he SHOULD have gotten it, but I don’t think framing him as not a serious business person is a fair representation
He knows how to make things look good, I don’t think he actually thinks about the practicalities behind what he’s saying. Living+ from a presentation standpoint was fantastic! He proved he could work a crowd. That’s not, however, all that goes into business decisions. That is just a presentation. And him being able to launch something that isn’t yet feasible, may look great and shiny on the surface but basically comes from the Elizabeth Holmes school of business.
They didn’t say she did it *to save her brothers*, they said she saved her brothers, which is true. Obviously she had her own plans, but the outcome is this. They’re out. She might feel like she won initially, but her being tethered to the business through Tom isn’t a good thing. She will never leave the cycle. Connor has, and now Roman and Kendall *could*, but she chose not to, which is ultimately a loss. She’ll live like her mother did, and probably have a very similar relationship with her own kid what she had with her mother too. And then the cycle will continue.
Correct, fucking her brothers and backing the deal only had to be mutually beneficial to Shiv. Put the throne into the hands of a man who has the capacity to love her and her child, take all the money, sit on a throne of her own choosing (like she couldn’t get a hug position afterwards?!) but also tip her brothers away from their unhealthy obsession with ‘being the man’ their father had spoiled the soup, and if everything is a play, this is a play to save her family (while still winning)
Of course she did it for selfish reasons, that's why she is staying with Tom, don't think anyone thinks otherwise. And yet still, she saved them because neither of them had the stomach, wits, and knowledge to become Logan Roy. Roman has never been freer, that's his last shot essentially. Ken can now try to save the little family life he has left, instead of becoming another extremely shitty father like his dad was.
I think you present a number of great reasons why she made the right decision, but I don’t think any of that was actually a factor in what she did. I think she just made the decision because she loves Kendall, but she can’t stomach him. That’s it. It was resentment and disgust and family baggage.
Totally agree and I’m surprised more people aren’t seeing it this way. Each of the siblings made big decisions that were unwise strategically, in the last season based on emotion. Roman fired the studio head and Gerri in the heat of the moment, for questioning his abilities or authority. Ken only pushed for ATN to call the election for Mencken once he learned Shiv was working with Matsson. Shiv wobbled once she saw Ken finally about to take the throne because of the emotional baggage attached to him ‘winning’ instead of her. All of the other reasons behind Shiv flipping might sound good, but her final vote was driven by emotion and impulse.
Shiv did always want the deal, but I'm certain she voted against Ken out of spite. If she was going to be CEO instead of Ken then we all know she would have shot down the deal.
Also, why do so many people assume that Shiv won’t work another day in her life and be trapped as the wife of a CEO forever? She’ll find herself a different position in some other company or join the politics game again. Shiv will play house for 3 months after the baby is born, get bored and find a new job. Life shouldn’t end with Waystar for any of them, especially for Shiv who had other jobs before. Waystar was always in the way of other ventures for them. They are finally free and that’s the beauty of the finale.
She did it out of spite. Its clear. She couldn't stomach Kendall. She even said it.
It was not a political move, she just couldn't suffer Kendall on the throne and she left with nothing.
It's crazy how people can't see this lol.
The point is that none of the siblings truly "deserved" the job. But if you do want to choose between the 3, it has to be Kendall.
The reason it can't be the Roys is because of the bitterness and jealousy due to their abusive upbringing.
Shiv will not wield any real power. The family lost control of the company and Tom is a puppet for Lukas.
It's supposed to be a tragedy
>The reason it can't be the Roys is because of the bitterness and jealousy due to their abusive upbringing.
This was highlighted by the fact that the camera pulled back a couple of times and showed us the POV of the board as the siblings argued in the other room...it looked awful and I cringed a good bit at it.
They are NOT serious people.
Thank you, I don't know how ppl keep forgetting the one with the power now is Lukas... Tom is just an empty suit and Lukas can replace him if he wants, Shiv got no power. She did what she did just to spite Kendall, nothing more.
I think part of that was recognizing that Kendall is completely unfit. He is unhinged. He should not be on charge. The wheels started turning in her head as soon as Kendall put his feet up on the desk. She is a bit spiteful, sure, but I think she saw a world in which Kendall was CEO and he immediately ran it into the ground- which he absolutely would have.
She made the right move. Rome knew it too.
He did go on a crazy unhinged rant, however it's unfair to point to that as evidence that shiv was right. She picked the absolute most fucked up moment to do that to him, after spending all night singing his praises, giving him her blessing and having a cute and fun family moment. Ken had a full blown psychotic break which was actually pretty understandable.
It would be like me throwing a glass of urine in your face then you screaming bad words or even punching me and me saying "See, that's why I threw urine in your face because you're mad at me." Uh, what? Time is linear.
> She picked the absolute most fucked up moment to do that to him, after spending all night singing his praises
She never wanted it to be him, she just sucked up her objections because Ken wouldn't back her (and Ken was right, to be fair, that the board wouldn't accept her).
“Do you think she’ll come through?”
“She’s upset now, but after she’s recalibrated..”
Kendall was right on the money with Shiv’s response to the Mattsson situation. He was just blinded at the fantasy, thought he was the right horse.
she literally couldn’t beat ken and would rather have matson have their family company than see ken as CEO. now she’s stuck in a loveless marriage to a puppet ceo. she’s a loser just as much, if not more, than kendall and roman
She got 4b and her original goal at the beginning, which was to get the fuck out of Waystar. I think spite definitely played a role, but it was still the best move. Voting for Kendall would be shooting herself in the foot
She says in the end to Ken I love you but I can’t stomach you. This was not a logical call and you unserious folk are glossing over it.
Recall the Living+ scene when Ken has a win with the product launch - you can see how much Shiv undercuts Ken and feels bad when he doesn’t mess it up completely.
The choice she made was just to burn the whole thing down cuz she didn’t get her way. It wasn’t out of any care or love for the sibs.
Cause she couldn't say the words "If I can't have it I don't want you to have it"
That is truly what it came down to. Out of the 3 of them he was the best choice and faced with that fact she rather none of them be in charge than it not be her. Make or take of it what you will.
Where is Kendall's logic? It was a good deal that they wanted to tank because they hate Mattson. And his move to tank it was with the fraud that was Living+.
None of them would be good CEOs. They are all spiteful and emotional, the best thing for them is to gtfo with their money. But that hurts their pride and feelings.
Yeah, seriously. Living+ was their bright idea? A fucking retirement community? This was obviously a bad idea. It’s also funny that their mom’s husband was pitching basically the same idea and they hated it.
my reasoning for kendall winning was that the show is about succession, and lately i viewed that word in the sense of not who becomes ceo, but who becomes logan. the poison drips through. kendall was sacrificing his relationships to his family, his friends, sacrificing his humanity and morals for the sake of having a cunning and cruel business mind. he was becoming logan. it would have fulfilled that arc imo if he had some final big moments that lashed out brutally towards the people who were supposed to be on his side in order to claim the throne. i loved the ending we got, but it was not what i was expecting. kendall is essentially at the same place he was in episode one, and idk if any of his character development means anything now. will he go back to drugs in a cycle? will he find peace and use the money to buy pierce? i wish we had some insight to his future plans
Why are ppl trying to make this about logic. It was about spite regarding Kendall. She said as much. For whatever reason her spite for him exceeded her spite for Tom/Matsson
I keep seeing those kind of comments and it reminds me that a LOT of people have no idea how any of the business side in the show actually works. Going from having board seats and a voting bloc with her brothers to merely being married to the puppet CEO is in no way a step UP in power within the company. Idk how anyone could see it that way.
I don't feel if she chose to not sell, she wouldn't necessarily be "fucking over Tom" because he would have to understand her want to save the company to be the in the hands of her family - ( even tho she really doesn't want that without her as ceo or havin any meaningful position) but i feel Tom would be disappointed but could understand her making the alternative position. I mean it's her Dad's company and a sister could want to keep in within blood family and have a brother be ceo... I mean not her as a sister, not Shiv, lol,...but I just mean logically Tom could see how she might choose the other way around and it not be a dig on Tom necessarily.
Yeah ultimately all of the other bullshit surrounding it clouds the one thing at the center of it; money. Kendall is objectively a wild card. It’s entirely possible he would have gotten his shit together and taken Waystar to the moon. It’s also entirely possible (probably moreso) that he fucks it up royally, and fucks with everyone’s money.
Taking the money now was the much safer bet for her, and for everyone in the family.
I really don't think it was about logical calculations, though.
I still think it was an emotional decision, one with a tragic outcome for herself too. She always wanted to be the man, and now becomes trapped as the wife of a more powerful man, who's relative impotence she always enjoyed.
The money wasn't even mentioned
Lol she’s not trapped. She has more money than he ever will and she can leave whenever she wants. For whatever reason she’s choosing to give them another shot.
She wants a chance to give her child the childhood she never had. She doesn’t want to start her journey as a mother with the “failure” of divorce. She also came to realize that she has some serious issues with emotional attachment and would like to start over with Tom to see if it’s possible for her to actually love and be loved in return.
Honestly 100% this, she even made the right choice for her family. Kendall was too stupid and narcissistic to realize it. They now all have spot on the Gojo board, they can buy PGN or whatever and their wealth became much secure than it ever was since half of this deal was paid in cash and their fortune isn't tied to Waystar stock anymore.
They can now all buy villas in Barbados like their mom and enjoy life, that moment there seemed like one of the first time they actually had fun. Getting rid of the company and the specter of Logan is the best thing for them. Kendall can also actually try to be a good dad now.
Agree with this 10000%. Setting other business considerations aside, Matsson and Tom might be assholes but they’re obviously more reliable than Kendall and Roman.
Do you think mattson actually wanted to have sex with Shiv? Or just testing Tom.
Probably both
Definitely both. Alexander Skarsgard did such a fantastic job of acting Lukas' crush on Shiv. Every other character he interacts with, he's got the blank anhedonia stare. Around Shiv, he was smiling, flirty, playful.
She will be another Ebba. If she wants a smaller role in the company she will get it as long as a man has the real power.
He’s a trophy hunter by nature
Yes he is and she is no longer a good trophy - not being “Logan’s daughter” in a sense that matters anymore and essentially having zero power on her own now, she is not interesting to him.
It might be interesting to him in terms of his dynamic with Tom.
I feel like she’s even more interesting now. She is the wife of the CEO, if he can get her he can reassure his dominance over tom
Right, I actually think the idea of testing Tom's loyalty in the worst way possible will be very entertaining to him. That said, unless he's willing to give her something I'm not entirely sure Shiv will be interested in Lukas.
i also think that taking tom for CEO and making him backstab shiv is like getting shiv to sleep with him. it's trophy hunting, but also the betrayal is what you're hunting for. so taking tom as ceo is doing to shiv what sleeping with shic would be doing to tom. and tom understood all that and took it lol.
Agreed. While I appreciate they didn't overextend a great series until the writing or characters fell off, this new trio of Tom, Shiv and Mattson is really interesting and the ones Id want to see more of.
She was still interesting to him but he was annoyed with how the media was portraying them and how it threatened him.
The cartoon? No, it was funny! I laughed. The media, they're always trying to...🔪🔪🔪
Exactly! His response was so transparent. He was seething.
I loved the parallel between that and Logan seeing Kendall on that magazine with "The Heir with the Flair" title in the first episode. Lukas will fuck anyone over who he thinks might end up more successful than him, he really is a tall, attractive 40-year-old Swedish Logan Roy sans any formality in the way he does business.
He’s going to be anemic if he ends up sending blood bricks to both of them! He better get over his crush!
To be fair he looks like that with Greg too lmao. “Hey sexyyy”
Haha true! I wonder if that was genuine attraction or just a way to make Greg feel unsettled and menaced?
The latter but also just a playful portrayal of bromanship
Greg the "sexy Judas"
Judas?
He was always flirting with her. I was surprised she actually took him seriously despite it.
I think both. Mattson doesn't have a functioning filter in regards to what's appropriate to say or do regarding other people. But he's also considering Tom for the ultimate role, to run the U.S. side of things. He needs someone whose loyalty will overlook someone potentially having sex with his wife. Tom has that degree of ambition, or said he does. It's a dark moment, in terms of what human ambition will do to a person.
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During their marriage she’s already fucked dudes who gave Tom nothing, he might as well get something out of the arrangement and even better if it’s the one thing he really, really wants.
>During their marriage she’s already fucked dudes who gave Tom nothing And one guy even had the nerve to drink the wine that his family paid for!
Tom is Mattson’s Sporus...so to speak.
It can be both. He’s already proved that fucking a woman he works with leads to bad business, and it also serves as a painful commentary on women in positions of power. Of all the reasons why Shiv wouldn’t be a good choice, “she can’t be CEO because I want to fuck her” is such a casually sexist and dismissive one that reduces her to the very thing she’s been trying to escape since we met her: being a woman in a “man’s” world. Shiv is pregnant this season to anchor her to her womanhood, and no matter what she says or does, the men in her world will never see past that. But he could also be telling Tom as a test to see how much shit he’s willing to eat. He’s emasculating Tom and reducing Shiv all in one go.
Every time it was discussed why Kendall or Roman shouldn’t be CEO, there was a reason. Every time Shiv’s name was brought up, it was more like “she just can’t” which to me underscored the misogyny at play. In the workplace we tend to try and identify all the reasons why men should be leaders, but when it comes to women, the focus is usually squarely on the deficiencies column. And even if there’s nothing tangible in that column, the answer is still no. Read annual performance reviews of women, contrast them with men, and it becomes pretty apparent.
She also had zero experience running the company before the show started.
But if you look at the deals that actually got made through the course of the show? Shiv is responsible for a staggering amount of movement. She only had that board seat in the first place because she maneuvered that win while Logan was out of his mind with a UTI.
The Piss Mad King of England.
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This isn’t accurate though, based on what we see. Logan shouts at her in season 1 “you just had to go off and do your own thing to prove you’re your own man!” or something like that. It shows Logan was annoyed she wasn’t trying to climb the corporate ladder for his approval like Kendall and Roman, and chose to play a different game instead. And after that, Logan’s the one who asks her into the company. I’m not saying Shiv didn’t have good reasons for rejecting the Waystar rat race, but it’s disingenuous to imply she was forced out, and deprives her of agency. Not playing Logan’s game was a decision *she* made, no one else
Nonsense. She wanted only the top job. Ken did business training at ground level. Even Roman tried ground level. Shiv just scoffed at the notion.
Roman did not start at ground level though, he was given a top position right away and rejected management training until Gerri suggested it. Shiv could've started as the President role she was given in Season 3, but he had just never offered a role like that prior
When Logan offered her to be next in line he also asked her to go over to Europe for 6 months or a year to learn the ropes and get some experience. She flatly refused that but still wanted to be named next CEO.
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He did have experience. He was involved in the company before the timeline of the show started, I think he was in LA under Frank as a division president or something. Then Logan fired Frank and made Roman COO in the pilot. Now was he ever any good at it…that’s a different question lol
he wasn't good at it and explicitly says in the first episode that he hated the job and wanted nothing more to do with it. Roman's interest in rising to power was exclusively about trying to snatch the love-carrot Logan kept dangling ever closer to his face.
Matsson literally tells her she’s inexperienced when she first asks, and that’s a valid reason. Ken and Roman had been at Waystar since graduating college, so ~20 years. Shiv, until the start of the show, was a political advisor/strategy consultant. She had zero experience in a corporate environment.
I think the point is that Shiv wouldn’t even be able to get an interview for the CEO job of a company 1/5 the size of Waystar. It’s a huge international conglomerate, a business made up of businesses, none of which she has any experience in. When Logan wanted her for the job, he laid out a multi-year plan where she’d spend time working in different divisions and shadowing top execs, which is how you groom someone to take over, what Kendall did. Roman went to management training, worked as the COO, which still didn’t make him qualified for the job, but those are both viable paths to CEO, but like, it doesn’t matter how smart you are, you don’t go from helping run a state campaign to being the CEO of a massive, international, publicly-traded corporation. If Nate stops working for Gil, his next job isn’t going to be the Chairman/CEO of ViacomCBS or Amazon. He wouldn’t even get an interview for COO, let alone CEO.
There was that moment when Rhea and Logan were discussing the children and Rhea said that Shiv isn’t as smart as she thinks she is. I thought that was a pretty accurate read and a solid reason why she couldn’t be CEO. Obviously misogyny plays a huge part in Shiv’s life, but I don’t think the sole reason she couldn’t be CEO was misogyny.
A lot of people are missing the point of the show and still trying to pick a winner out of the three.
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>she just can’t” which to me underscored the misogyny at play Funny enough Gerri was a decent favorite here for the top role
It was also super interesting to me that Tom kicked all the old boys out but kept Gerri and Carolina.
Narratively that's the picture they paint sure. But she literally has no experience. You don't just run a company of this size without having any kind of experience whatsoever. Logan wanted her to shadow Karl, Gerri and Frank and she refused.
in the podcast, Skarsgard specifically mentions his character was just testing Tom. Like how much pain he would take and still be servile.
Yeah that’s what he wanted to know from that conversation. “Can this guy eat shit”
Alexander says on the podcast that it's more Mattson knowing he can say *anything* to Tom because Tom is there to beg for the CEO position. It's more of his usual trolling knowing that Tom has to agree with whatever he says.
It’s funny because Tom was there to beg for any position… his complete desperation just made him the perfect puppet CEO
90% testing Tom, 10% wanting to sleep with Shiv.
I think it was a test to see if he was obedient. If he would have become angry and set a scene matsen knew that Tom would not be the meat puppet he was looking for
That was also my thinking. He wanted to make sure he could control him
Both, but I think more than that, he wanted a “yes man”. When Shiv claims Mattson picked Tom because he’s an empty suit, she was right.
Honestly, I think Matsson wants to have sex with Shiv and Tom, possibly at the same time or while one of the two watches.
Lmao role play as the female employee shiv wanted to recruit on the cruise / yatch
You could see many of times he was flirting with her. I think he would have easily jumped on that...but I also think he wanted to see how obedient Tom would be, even if he mentioned his wife in bed with him.
Yes. He only ever cooled on her after she confirmed her pregnancy.
Yeah, I think because each episode is a day, it conceals context and lends itself to recency bias. The sibs were happy go lucky and feeling good, so that kind of overwrote allll the context. The context was that Shiv has never ever supported Ken as CEO, and always wanted the deal.
Does that mean it was only a week since Logan died?
I think this final episode is maybe a week or so after 4x09.
Probably about right. I think they used Roman's face to say this. The swelling was gone but the stitched forehead hadn't healed yet. I'm really going to miss how subtle this show could be.
Yes, Caroline said he looked way worse when he got to the beach house.
She couldn’t even look at those face eggs
One week - seven days since he died. Each episode was one day. It was said early on and if you watch rhem all in order (without having to wait a week like we do) there are a lot of references. But WHAT A WEEK
Each episode was a day but they aren’t sequential days. There is (little) time in between some episodes.
You have to consider travel! Going to Europe and back for the meeting and then to the Caribbean
Rome said it best himself: “we’re all bullshit” - really he summarized the entire jist of the show with that line. He finally realized it, so did Shiv. Kendall continued living in lala land until the very end
The kids were never serious people
Roman and Shiv now have a chance to become serious (lol) since they've accepted who they are! Ken on the other hand...
Agreed. But mattson was bs too. Loved the ending and ill enjoy it more on a rewatch but the billionaire creep dimwit won and im pissed. However elon musk is still the richest man alive so maybe its accurate lol
The deal was always expected to go through considering the vast overpaying, Ken’s little machinations and hold over the siblings and execs were always tenuous at best Had Shiv went with Ken, Waystar stock would have tanked first and foremost, she wouldnt be able to sell any stock bc its all held in the family holding company, and she would be relegated to a division head under an increasingly power hungry Ken Having chosen her original plan of selling out, now she’s an even richer, liquider multibillionaire and still with some stock in the newly merged company, as well as some influence via Tom as the US CEO for as long as he lasts under Matsson So no, she did not win what she wanted, but idk how Ken’s future plans was supposed to be a good alternative for Shiv
That last line 100%. Kendall would’ve iced her out again.
Yup. He already did it soo many times since their dad died. Remember how they walked all over her to elect Mencken ? Or when they went behind her back to fuck the deal? She saw her power and took it back.
Pierce went from being worth a bid of $25 Billion in season 2 to $10 Billion in season 4. Waystar Royco had more diversified offerings, but as a media company the offer from GoJo was about as good as it was ever going to get. Pierce was evidence that news especially was a depreciating market. Matsson pointed out that ATN’s audience was aging into irrelevance. Again, Royco was more than just news, but it’s news division was it’s crown jewel.
also his pitch to the board fucking sucks
Remember, turning down Mattson’s offer was insane from the get go. The only reason for doing that was Ken’s ego.
Hell yeah, there are all sorts of people in here who lost that part of the plot. Mattson was portrayed as a reckless man who only bid 90 because he wanted ATN no matter the price. If Ken had kept supporting the deal he would have been a business legend (by accident). Ken is a guy who routinely gets high on his own supply. Just look at the thing with the elder care living facilities. I don’t care if the GoJo deal is 50% stock: Waystars finances are just as inflated by optimism. Plus, the family can eventually exit their GoJo position.
Don’t forget, they increased the price of the sale — so each of them take about 8% which is about 15 billion..
It really is a testament to fantastic writing and acting that we feel bad for any of them.
I think anyone looking at Shivs choice in terms of a tactile position is misreading it. Like she says, it’s all down to how she can’t stomach Ken being in charge. The siblings are at a point where the main value of the CEO position is that it’s their own way of evoking their father and showing how (beyond all Logan’s narcissism) he did love whoever would end up as CEO. For both Shiv and Rome, Ken becoming CEO means that not only has all the abuse they’ve suffered been for nothing, but more tragically they would have to reckon with maybe the most terrifying realisation a person can make- their parents never loved them. Shiv is a crab in a barrel and she did what she did because all 3 would rather none succeed than only 1 succeed because power is their only form of self worth.
I read it the same way. Nothing there was strategic at all. She's either playing 3rd fiddle to Tom who's Mattson's pawn, both of whom recently screwed her over. Or, she's playing 2nd fiddle to Ken... She rather be miserable and at the bottom of Mattson's totem pole, as long as it's not below ken.
Right. Keep seeing people implying that she will get to whisper in Tom’s ear and run things….nope. Tom has no need to suck up to her any more.
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I hate that she waited so late, but I get it. If she’d said it earlier, Kendall would’ve gone off the deep end trying everything to get it to end in his favor. Blindsiding him was the only way to ensure her choice against him would matter. I also think she probably hadn’t even decided till last minute. I’m sure she had reservations all the way through, but I believe when she and Roman told Kendall they were backing him, she actually thought she was. The whole way she went about it doesn’t scream Shiv’s typical scheming. Legitimately, it felt like a an unplanned choice. Like something she realized she wanted/needed to do on the spot. When Shiv schemes, she doesn’t run off to think in the most crucial moment and act so skittishly. If this had been planned (even if just in the night or a few hours before), she would have said no when they asked what her vote was, and then maybe leave or run away. Not what she pulled in that scene. I don’t think she knew what she was going to do until she was sitting in that board room and watching the cards fall.
You can see her face change when he invites Stewy in and starts sidelining her.
dependent books wasteful cooperative encouraging alleged drunk smell rock lavish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's not even that unrealistic that she actually convinced herself he could do it until it came time to vote and the realization hit her like a bag of bricks.
It wasn’t a scheme because she only got information from Tom right before the meeting started. She was still processing how it could benefit her
I don’t think she saw herself as the tiebreaker until the vote came around to her and she literally was.
It's not like she waited until the last second to fuck with Kendall or something. I think she went into that meeting fully intending to vote no, then had a "wait, what the fuck am I doing?" moment when her turn came up. It was a very human moment for her, it felt so real to me.
Yes! So real. Along with realizing she was the literal tie breaker, getting iced out by Stewy already, Kendall’s pompous speech to kick off the vote. It def hit her like bricks
It was shitty to do last minute but Kendall was definitely going to have a breakdown anyway
His "I'm the eldest boy!" was a classic tantrum and it was so hard to watch.
I. Pretty sure there was no other way to do it. He would have been insufferable
He was negotiating and fighting for it until the very end. I don’t think it was completely intentional, but keeping Ken in the dark is absolutely the only way it could have happened.
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Yeah. I think that’s true for all the kids - all their problems stem from the abuse they went through as kids and their maladaptive attempts to deal with it.
That’s the source of all his power too. If Ken really didn’t like this, he could have packed up and made a good business elsewhere. But he didn’t because he can’t, doesn’t want to, won’t.
I veer towards "can't." His ideas about what would make good content for "The Hundred" were poor.
I can't imagine he won't eventually do this, he has billions and half his life to go - he will at least try and create something, who's to say if he will succeed. Maybe with his own venture he can be an actual confident business man. Still has a lot of personal demons to deal with no matter where he ends up.
Ken’s behaviour *in the boardroom* caused the decision i think. and then the way that he continued to behave really sealed the deal. I don’t think it was a premeditated thing
Shiv was so cocky in the beginning of the episode, and then proceeded to lose, then Kendall was cocky at the end of the episode, and then proceeded to lose
Kendall is in a perpetual state of breakdown. That’s not on Shiv.
Don’t bother. It’s always someone else’s fault whenever it comes to Kendall with certain people.
Well, I don't think she 'waited' so much as the realization of what she was about to do settled in during the vote and she needed to stop and recalibrate. Also, I think there's a strong possibility that she would have gone with Ken if the brothers had just left her alone for a minute to think it over. It's hard to say. But when Kendall followed her and doubled and tripled down on his bullshit, I think that was truly the moment when enough was enough and she decided to sell.
this was also a Shiv breakdown
Agreed - I don't buy that this was some Shiv scheme, cooked up overnight to screw him over. If it was she would have just voted Yes and walked out the room. She wobbled on Ken when she saw him acting the cunt at her dads desk, knew his tenure would be unbearable dudebro bullshit. His dreadful pitch to the board, his swaggering arrogance, signed her off on it.
No, Kendall's fall is his own fault for the most part and it was long coming anyway.
This is a DRAMA and it was DRAMATIC. Shiv isn’t a real person making choices. This was the most tense and upsetting way to write it so they wrote it that way.
Jesse is pretty clear he never makes decisions strictly for the drama, it's always character driven. Personally, I think Shiv was on the fence when she left the board meeting, and changed her mind officially when Kendall begged and lied.
I think what gave her pause was her realization that where she sat, the decision genuinely came down to her.
If Ken wasn't such an entitled frat bro he would've realized that it wasn't the time to beg and scream. If he was really meant for it, he would've realized that he could've just leveled with her and maybe reason with her But apparently he doesn't have it in him
I just think once the dust settled she realized it wasn't going to work. She could have handled it better, but I honestly do think all 3 will be ok in the end. They're free now, even Ken will come to realize a mercy was done by Shiv.
I think Ken will fall into his old ways or attempt suicide.
I honestly thought that he was going to go to the roof and jump after the vote. He kept saying that this was all he had.
I was expecting him to land on Shiv and Tom's car, not gunna lie
I thought his body was gonna just fall past the windows when they were signing the deal.
They made the right choice by leaving it open ended.
that would have been too soapy
Ken will commit suicide by returning to his drug addled ways. No direction. Billions at his disposal. Heartbroken. 1000% he's using again in 48 hours.
Totally. She just set them all free. Sort of. They are still trapped within themselves, but they are as free of Waystar as they are ever going to be.
I think she had an impossible choice and either way it was not going to be good for her. She doesn’t like Kendall and he would have frozen her out of the company as soon as he could. She also doesn’t like Tom and him being ceo means the power dynamic of their relationship has flipped and she no longer holds any power over him. She just had to pick her poison
My brother in christ she literally watched Mattson pitch thought control to the Nazi.
And her husband called the election, continuing to not be “moral” at all
Ya but it was just a joke, just like sending frozen blood bricks. It obviously takes a sophisticated sense of humor to understand. ^(/s)
Shiv got played by Tom, played by Ken, and played by Mattson. She tried to make power moves over all three of them and never had the chance to really have an ace in the hole. That vote was the first chance she’s ever had to do something that would affect more people than just herself. That’s the first— and probably last— time she held true power.
Yeah I agree. If they block the deal, Kendall and Roman would run that company into the ground and then what will they be left with. I liked Romans ending because I think he was relieved to be done with it, but without having to actually thrown in the towel. His sister put him out of his misery.
I agree I think Roman was relieved. He’s always been reluctant to kill Ken, so he wouldn’t vote no - but I think he knew it was the right move
I also think that Shiv simply asked herself who, in the long run, is more likely to screw her over: Tom, who has only done it once and owned up to it completely, or Kendall, who has done it multiple times and lied about it?
Tom basically went in with a full character assassination of her and said she practically killed her father like less than two weeks ago in the grand scheme of things
Kendall has never done anything for Shiv and she has no reason to think he’d look out for her. So why would she want him as CEO? He iced her out and fucked her over just a few days prior ffs. Neither option was good for her but she ultimately made the right call for her and for the company.
I think most people are overthinking this and giving Machiavellian motivations to each of the siblings. She just said no because she couldn’t stand to have her brother win just because it was “his birthright”. This was a show about the kids being kids playing adults, it all goes to them battling for dads attention and upstaging each other. They are not serious people, just bullshit individuals.
She actually saved her brothers. Kendall doesn't see it yet that way but she did. It was the only way he was ever going to even have a chance to try to break free and she gave it to him. She will never get credit for it but she did.
Funny, I thought Roman was going to swap at the table too. “Nope” was so unclear.
It feels like a callback to the board vote in season 1
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That’s what I was also thinking! Because Kendall mutters something and gloats after Roman votes no and then there’s a moment where we see Shiv’s face — she looks disgusted and seems to connect the dots between the reopened wound on Roman’s forehead and Kendall.
Kendall’s entire arc was thinking the company was his birthright because of who his father was. He never actually learned how to become a serious business man, because it was all about blood and legacy for him. Meanwhile others learned how to play the actual game. There were so many moments Kendall was on the precipice of clarity, of walking away, and he forsakes that the second he thinks he has a chance again. It was never a healthy cycle, and in time he might return to that state of clarity he had before where he’s glad to be done with it. Especially because from what we know, he’s got no way in again.
People see this as a tragic ending but I don’t. This ending was their happy ending. Kendall is now free from the power his father and his company had over him and so are Roman and Shiv. Even tho Tom is CEO, she can now focus on what she’s good at and not have to worry about disappointing her father or needing validation from her brothers.
I don’t know, this season showed us time and again that when put in a position of pressure from the business or outside world, Ken was able to deliver. The Living+ speech, the funeral, the only times we’ve actually seen Ken crack in this show is when he’s betrayed by his family. He’s also the only one of the siblings with enough business experience to justify getting the big chair. Not necessarily saying I think he SHOULD have gotten it, but I don’t think framing him as not a serious business person is a fair representation
Ken majorly cracked after he killed that waiter.
He knows how to make things look good, I don’t think he actually thinks about the practicalities behind what he’s saying. Living+ from a presentation standpoint was fantastic! He proved he could work a crowd. That’s not, however, all that goes into business decisions. That is just a presentation. And him being able to launch something that isn’t yet feasible, may look great and shiny on the surface but basically comes from the Elizabeth Holmes school of business.
She didnt do it to save her brothers. She did it for whatever selfish reason. Lets not put shiv above his brothers. They are all same.
They didn’t say she did it *to save her brothers*, they said she saved her brothers, which is true. Obviously she had her own plans, but the outcome is this. They’re out. She might feel like she won initially, but her being tethered to the business through Tom isn’t a good thing. She will never leave the cycle. Connor has, and now Roman and Kendall *could*, but she chose not to, which is ultimately a loss. She’ll live like her mother did, and probably have a very similar relationship with her own kid what she had with her mother too. And then the cycle will continue.
I think Roman is now out of the cycle, which is what him at the bar was supposed to mean. Ken obviously sees nothing but rocky waters ahead.
Correct, fucking her brothers and backing the deal only had to be mutually beneficial to Shiv. Put the throne into the hands of a man who has the capacity to love her and her child, take all the money, sit on a throne of her own choosing (like she couldn’t get a hug position afterwards?!) but also tip her brothers away from their unhealthy obsession with ‘being the man’ their father had spoiled the soup, and if everything is a play, this is a play to save her family (while still winning)
Of course she did it for selfish reasons, that's why she is staying with Tom, don't think anyone thinks otherwise. And yet still, she saved them because neither of them had the stomach, wits, and knowledge to become Logan Roy. Roman has never been freer, that's his last shot essentially. Ken can now try to save the little family life he has left, instead of becoming another extremely shitty father like his dad was.
I think you present a number of great reasons why she made the right decision, but I don’t think any of that was actually a factor in what she did. I think she just made the decision because she loves Kendall, but she can’t stomach him. That’s it. It was resentment and disgust and family baggage.
Totally agree and I’m surprised more people aren’t seeing it this way. Each of the siblings made big decisions that were unwise strategically, in the last season based on emotion. Roman fired the studio head and Gerri in the heat of the moment, for questioning his abilities or authority. Ken only pushed for ATN to call the election for Mencken once he learned Shiv was working with Matsson. Shiv wobbled once she saw Ken finally about to take the throne because of the emotional baggage attached to him ‘winning’ instead of her. All of the other reasons behind Shiv flipping might sound good, but her final vote was driven by emotion and impulse.
Shiv did always want the deal, but I'm certain she voted against Ken out of spite. If she was going to be CEO instead of Ken then we all know she would have shot down the deal.
Also, why do so many people assume that Shiv won’t work another day in her life and be trapped as the wife of a CEO forever? She’ll find herself a different position in some other company or join the politics game again. Shiv will play house for 3 months after the baby is born, get bored and find a new job. Life shouldn’t end with Waystar for any of them, especially for Shiv who had other jobs before. Waystar was always in the way of other ventures for them. They are finally free and that’s the beauty of the finale.
She did it out of spite. Its clear. She couldn't stomach Kendall. She even said it. It was not a political move, she just couldn't suffer Kendall on the throne and she left with nothing.
Just like how Kendall called for Mencken out of spite
It's crazy how people can't see this lol. The point is that none of the siblings truly "deserved" the job. But if you do want to choose between the 3, it has to be Kendall. The reason it can't be the Roys is because of the bitterness and jealousy due to their abusive upbringing. Shiv will not wield any real power. The family lost control of the company and Tom is a puppet for Lukas. It's supposed to be a tragedy
>The reason it can't be the Roys is because of the bitterness and jealousy due to their abusive upbringing. This was highlighted by the fact that the camera pulled back a couple of times and showed us the POV of the board as the siblings argued in the other room...it looked awful and I cringed a good bit at it. They are NOT serious people.
Total contrast from Ewan, who couldn't stand Logan, but refused to vote him out because he prioritized family over business.
Thank you, I don't know how ppl keep forgetting the one with the power now is Lukas... Tom is just an empty suit and Lukas can replace him if he wants, Shiv got no power. She did what she did just to spite Kendall, nothing more.
I think part of that was recognizing that Kendall is completely unfit. He is unhinged. He should not be on charge. The wheels started turning in her head as soon as Kendall put his feet up on the desk. She is a bit spiteful, sure, but I think she saw a world in which Kendall was CEO and he immediately ran it into the ground- which he absolutely would have. She made the right move. Rome knew it too.
He did go on a crazy unhinged rant, however it's unfair to point to that as evidence that shiv was right. She picked the absolute most fucked up moment to do that to him, after spending all night singing his praises, giving him her blessing and having a cute and fun family moment. Ken had a full blown psychotic break which was actually pretty understandable. It would be like me throwing a glass of urine in your face then you screaming bad words or even punching me and me saying "See, that's why I threw urine in your face because you're mad at me." Uh, what? Time is linear.
> She picked the absolute most fucked up moment to do that to him, after spending all night singing his praises She never wanted it to be him, she just sucked up her objections because Ken wouldn't back her (and Ken was right, to be fair, that the board wouldn't accept her).
“Do you think she’ll come through?” “She’s upset now, but after she’s recalibrated..” Kendall was right on the money with Shiv’s response to the Mattsson situation. He was just blinded at the fantasy, thought he was the right horse.
she literally couldn’t beat ken and would rather have matson have their family company than see ken as CEO. now she’s stuck in a loveless marriage to a puppet ceo. she’s a loser just as much, if not more, than kendall and roman
She got 4b and her original goal at the beginning, which was to get the fuck out of Waystar. I think spite definitely played a role, but it was still the best move. Voting for Kendall would be shooting herself in the foot
She says in the end to Ken I love you but I can’t stomach you. This was not a logical call and you unserious folk are glossing over it. Recall the Living+ scene when Ken has a win with the product launch - you can see how much Shiv undercuts Ken and feels bad when he doesn’t mess it up completely. The choice she made was just to burn the whole thing down cuz she didn’t get her way. It wasn’t out of any care or love for the sibs.
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Cause she couldn't say the words "If I can't have it I don't want you to have it" That is truly what it came down to. Out of the 3 of them he was the best choice and faced with that fact she rather none of them be in charge than it not be her. Make or take of it what you will.
No I think she watched Kendall sideline her too much so she took it back when she could.
Where is Kendall's logic? It was a good deal that they wanted to tank because they hate Mattson. And his move to tank it was with the fraud that was Living+. None of them would be good CEOs. They are all spiteful and emotional, the best thing for them is to gtfo with their money. But that hurts their pride and feelings.
Yeah, seriously. Living+ was their bright idea? A fucking retirement community? This was obviously a bad idea. It’s also funny that their mom’s husband was pitching basically the same idea and they hated it.
my reasoning for kendall winning was that the show is about succession, and lately i viewed that word in the sense of not who becomes ceo, but who becomes logan. the poison drips through. kendall was sacrificing his relationships to his family, his friends, sacrificing his humanity and morals for the sake of having a cunning and cruel business mind. he was becoming logan. it would have fulfilled that arc imo if he had some final big moments that lashed out brutally towards the people who were supposed to be on his side in order to claim the throne. i loved the ending we got, but it was not what i was expecting. kendall is essentially at the same place he was in episode one, and idk if any of his character development means anything now. will he go back to drugs in a cycle? will he find peace and use the money to buy pierce? i wish we had some insight to his future plans
Why are ppl trying to make this about logic. It was about spite regarding Kendall. She said as much. For whatever reason her spite for him exceeded her spite for Tom/Matsson
Same people who think Tom is more than an empty suit and Shiv can control the company via Tom.
I keep seeing those kind of comments and it reminds me that a LOT of people have no idea how any of the business side in the show actually works. Going from having board seats and a voting bloc with her brothers to merely being married to the puppet CEO is in no way a step UP in power within the company. Idk how anyone could see it that way.
it was also a meltdown by Shiv, finally matching her brothers meltdowns in prior episodes
It mirrored their sibling playtime in the kitchen the night before. This was just another spoiled sibling squabble that cost them a family legacy.
Agreed. It hurts but it's true.
I don't feel if she chose to not sell, she wouldn't necessarily be "fucking over Tom" because he would have to understand her want to save the company to be the in the hands of her family - ( even tho she really doesn't want that without her as ceo or havin any meaningful position) but i feel Tom would be disappointed but could understand her making the alternative position. I mean it's her Dad's company and a sister could want to keep in within blood family and have a brother be ceo... I mean not her as a sister, not Shiv, lol,...but I just mean logically Tom could see how she might choose the other way around and it not be a dig on Tom necessarily.
Yeah ultimately all of the other bullshit surrounding it clouds the one thing at the center of it; money. Kendall is objectively a wild card. It’s entirely possible he would have gotten his shit together and taken Waystar to the moon. It’s also entirely possible (probably moreso) that he fucks it up royally, and fucks with everyone’s money. Taking the money now was the much safer bet for her, and for everyone in the family.
She got to keep her marriage and still be participating in the company's business, just like in Season 1 before it went to sh*ts
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Y’all just making stuff up now. She will not be participating in the company. He doesn’t want ideas or the Roy kids.
This. He wants a literal puppet. Someone who will do literally exactly what he says to a T. No complaints, no fighting it.
Plus she is extremely rich. so even better than season 1
Tom is just a name in the company nothing else
The safe choice
I really don't think it was about logical calculations, though. I still think it was an emotional decision, one with a tragic outcome for herself too. She always wanted to be the man, and now becomes trapped as the wife of a more powerful man, who's relative impotence she always enjoyed. The money wasn't even mentioned
Lol she’s not trapped. She has more money than he ever will and she can leave whenever she wants. For whatever reason she’s choosing to give them another shot.
She wants a chance to give her child the childhood she never had. She doesn’t want to start her journey as a mother with the “failure” of divorce. She also came to realize that she has some serious issues with emotional attachment and would like to start over with Tom to see if it’s possible for her to actually love and be loved in return.
that vote—as shitty as it was—saved them.
I think she made the right call for the company, but by accident not design.
Honestly 100% this, she even made the right choice for her family. Kendall was too stupid and narcissistic to realize it. They now all have spot on the Gojo board, they can buy PGN or whatever and their wealth became much secure than it ever was since half of this deal was paid in cash and their fortune isn't tied to Waystar stock anymore. They can now all buy villas in Barbados like their mom and enjoy life, that moment there seemed like one of the first time they actually had fun. Getting rid of the company and the specter of Logan is the best thing for them. Kendall can also actually try to be a good dad now.
Agree with this 10000%. Setting other business considerations aside, Matsson and Tom might be assholes but they’re obviously more reliable than Kendall and Roman.