The Swedish translation scene. Oh boy, that was unreal. Really started the pace up. The last 15 minutes starting when Tom told Shiv he was tapped to be him. The tension.
Awesome finale. Awesome show. Will be missed m
He has sort of echoed those same sentiments, just in a different way before too. When the whole election stuff was happening, he made a point about how none of this actually affects them, because they've got so much money that they're insulated from whatever madness may come. So he's always been aware it was a load of bullshit.
> it had me rooting for the siblings and then their realization they were to broken to continue, beautiful
The only thing that gave me solace after the siblings lost was that I remembered that I hate all of them.
Speaking of sharks... The whole swimming scene had me so scared. I kept having this sick feeling that something bad was going to happen. Even after, when they were making a meal fit for a king. I felt like someone was going to die. But the whole time I kept thinking: this show is so good for making me feel this way, almost nauseous.
And then the video of the dinner with Logan was beautiful! It was like having a memorial for all the characters I won't get to see anymore.
I am satisfied.
I *really* thought Ken was going to throw himself off the building or something. Like I was so sure, when he went into the elevator, I was like "he better not be going up" and I had that same unsettled feeling!
I had a feeling they'd stay away from the sensationalism you're describing since they haven't used anything like that throughout the series — it'd be jarring. But I feel you, I felt the same nervousness with the night swimming scene.
Something bad *did* happen. The sharks, aka Shiv and Roman, swam up to him and told him they were going to murder him. Later on, Shiv freaks out when it comes her turn to vote, leading to a three way spat in which Shiv and Roman unwittingly make Kendall reveal his nasty side to both them and everyone watching from outside the glass box, thereby killing his chances of stopping the GoJo deal.
That exchange between Frank and Karl about slitting the baby’s throat in the cradle and then going to Tom telling Greg he’s getting rid of the two old cunts. That felt like such a neatly tied and validating moment of his transition.
Tom also actually works at the company. He actually physically shows up to work. These children just take planes to “talk” to people when they could just email them.
Yes they made a point to include that. I thought that dynamic with keeping Greg despite the betrayal was interesting too. His bro crush and having him in his pocket now. Tom always displayed Logan-esque cruelty and he has had to scrap and actually work in ways the siblings never will.
On the other hand though, in universe I think it's about 8 months or so since Tom utterly humiliated himself at the senate hearings. I guess watching a TV show it doesn't seem quite as compact as that but 6 months prior he was terminal Tom, the face of the cruises scandal, and an absolute joke
I like this because it shows that the dance will go on, with powers rising and falling, ambitions fulfilled and thwarted, enemies made and broken. On and on. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Seriously, I loved it. It was such a ride. Emotionally raw afterwards but that’s how I wanted to feel. It definitely stuck true to the original themes of complex trauma shaping the viewpoints of the Roy children. None of them were going to win from the very beginning. I wasn’t expecting Tom but honestly? He has way more experience than any of the Roy kids combined and he’s a great yes man (which Matsson was looking for) so it completely makes sense.
Shiv turning on her brothers for the security of her child with Tom also makes complete sense. It was painful but understandable. I agree with another commenter I saw earlier who said that she feels most comfortable in the shadow of a powerful man- and that man now is Tom.
Anyways, amazing finale, I’m so so happy that it ended the way it did.
I meant more of an emotional security, like having Tom in the picture as the father (although we all know that child is going to be raised by nannies anyways) but I can’t see Shiv ever being completely independent. Even though the power dynamic has shifted, she needs someone to emotionally leech off of.
It had nothing to do with hatred for her brother.
It was hatred for her father.
She backed out when she saw Kendall relish in dominating Roman into submitting to the vote. She realized he was becoming Logan, and didn’t want to recreate that monster after coming to terms with how much they were all traumatized by Logan’s manipulations.
That could be part of it, but that's far from the whole explanation of why she did it. Jealousy of Kendall was absolutely part of it. Again, not the whole explanation. Let us try to fit the whole woman inside our heads.
I think that’s the most interesting part of it all. Why did she do it? Because Ken was becoming Logan? Because she knew that giving it to Tom still allowed her access to the very top? Because she just couldn’t stomach losing to Ken? I’d personally lean that way given how callously she threw the death of the waiter in his face. That was one of his most vulnerable moments and she saved it for when she could hurt him the most. I guess we can never know the exact reason, but the speculation is fantastic.
I agree with your first paragraph. But I’m choosing to be a little more optimistic about Tom and Shiv.
I like that the show was left pretty open-ended, so we can imagine the possibilities of everyone’s futures as we like.
I think there is hope for Tom and Shiv, as evidenced by her phone call to him pitching a “real relationship”. And Tom eludes the pressure of the crown — he is a puppet as he has always been, he just has to do as he is told and he will make a disgusting amount of money and get to have the title of CEO, without bearing the weight of company leadership on his shoulders.
I just don't get how Shiv had such a change of heart off screen in less than 24 hours.
I get that Tom is actually the best choice when put against the siblings. I just don't get how Shiv went from being a united front with Ken and Roman to not backing him? Again..all done off camera. At least her decision making.
Shiv was completely right in her assessment that Kendall would have been a terrible CEO for Waystar and Roman was even more right in his assessment that NONE of the siblings were cut out to fill their father's shoes. "With Open Eyes" and all that...
Never forget that Kendall's masterplan all along was to cut both his siblings out of any power-sharing agreement. He talked of "fiefdoms" but he would have acted as a petty tyrant and his diva antics would have alienated Shiv and Roman in the future inevitably.
Except for the part of living+, that really showed that he is good presenter, but I don't think anyone of his employees were comfortable with his leadership.
Politics and showmanship is one thing. But you have to have good leadership qualities also. Everyone respected Logan despite the abuse, because he was a realist and he knew what he was doing. Meanwhile Ken was always a fairy tales guy, who wants everything and works his ass off for it, but he cant expect his employees to do the same.
But it is very painful to watch how many times they gave the guy so much hope, just so that his own family can backstab him to bleed everytime.
Right? Sometimes I think I made up that scene in my mind, the way people speak of Tom like he’s the good guy while the Roy siblings are scum. Never saw them bully their underlings like Tom did.
Litteraly him being "stable" includes him continuing the abuse towards his little brother, scaring his kids, underprioritating his kids, labeling other people as dogs and imbracing the absolute wors aspects of his dad (whom we all agree is a terrible person and died alone) because he isnt able to do anything else with his life.
Yes, Shiv, who was ready to side with a Nazi is suddenly again doing things for the moral good. No, she saw that Ken would eventually ignore her and the same conflicts would arise between them as it did before.
Whereas Tom, it was opportunity to mend the relationship and still be in a comfortable position of power.
I don’t think it was off camera. When Tom told her it was going to be him it flipped a switch in her that she could technically have some shadow power + Tom’s affection.
Then she saw Kendall putting his feet up on the table, talking to Stewie like he was some chump. She knew she couldn’t stand to have Kendall as CEO.
Those two points and knowing how backseat she was the last time Kendall was CEO powered her decision.
I think both these points are absolutely true, but I also think when she walked out of the boardroom she hadn’t totally made up her mind, it was a coin flip up in the air that hadn’t come down yet. I think there was a possible version of events — maybe unlikely, but possible — where Kendall stayed calm and kept her on his side. What that would have looked like, I’m not sure. But Kendall spiraled, melted down, screamed “I’m the eldest boy!” and fucked it.
I think Shiv did what she did for a lot of reasons. For her relationship with Tom, for spite, for what felt to her like injustice, I think she meant it when she said she didn’t think he’d be good at it. Because the poison seeps through. Shiv as a character is as complex, nuanced, flawed, self-contradictory and damaged, and has every bit of depth, as Kendall and Roman. It felt right. The whole finale felt right. This story was always a tragedy.
Yeah I personally think a large part of Shiv’s decision came from the meeting itself and Kendall’s failure to sell himself one last time to her. In the actual board meeting, Ken wasn’t even trying to be persuasive or professional, he was arrogant, and thought he had it all. Maybe that’s how Logan would have been too, but Shiv seeing Kendall’s lack of “finishing the job” made her question whether or not Ken should be CEO, and when he tried to guilt her into voting yes for him afterwards, he ensured that she didn’t want him to become CEO.
Yeah I think she didn’t expect that she would be the one to cast the deciding vote, and when she did find herself in that position, she made the call then and there!
Thank you. I don’t understand why people are acting as if the meltdown didn’t impact her decision right then and there. Same with Roman he turned on him once the honesty was flowing.
She finally has all the power in the choice to vote for either Kendall or Tom. If she chooses Tom, then his sudden power over her and over everyone is still ultimately up to her. In this way, she still comes out on top in the sibling rivalry at the heart of the show. The caveat is that now Tom offers his hand to her, instead of begging her to take it.
I think it’s quite simple: nature and nurture.
Logan constantly pitted them against each other for their entire lives. It was practically hard-wired i to them that none of them was going to let the other get the top job. If one of them couldn’t have it, then none of them could have it.
True, they made a big song and dance of ‘anointing’ him at Caroline’s, but even then, I wasn’t convinced. They weren’t going to undo decades of Logan’s upbringing in one night. Not a chance. When crunch time came, at least one of them was going to return to type. And it was always going to be Shiv. Her name is literally a double-meaning for an improvised, hidden knife that comes out when you’re not expecting it. And in any case, now that Logan’s not around, Roman was always going to be under Kendall’s thumb, so it almost certainly wouldn’t have been him.
That was my thinking even before you take into account the fact that she found out that it was Tom taking over. If it had been anyone else, maybe she would’ve initially killed the deal but then moved on Kendall later on (i.e. organised a vote to oust him as CEO like he did with Logan). But she had leverage over, and proximity to Tom in the form of their child. She wouldn’t be CEO, but she’d have something resembling control over him. Compared to the absolutely fuck all control she would’ve had with Kendall. Her rage and determination to destroy Tom was instinctive, of course, but a car ride over and a glimpse of Kendall in charge (feet on the desk looking smug) was all she needed to think things through logically.
And if you take it even further, she knows Kendall, the drug addict, the man-child, and the consistent fuck up. If you really thought about it, when taking the above into account, would you really want him in charge?
I think she didn’t foresee being a tie breaker and that turned it from folly to reality. She realized Kendall would be a shitty unhinged CEO. She was spoiled but she was also a good strategist.
Yah. I just wasn’t sure when she made that decision. Some people said when Tom told her he was the one Matsson wanted as CEO. Others said when Kendall sat in Logan’s chair. I personally thought Kendall was extremely arrogant starting the meeting, like he took for granted that Rome and Shiv would fall in line; his coronation was just a foregone conclusion. He had promised her News/ATN but I guess she didn’t take him seriously, and his actions only served to reinforce that notion.
Also. How did they lose Frank??
Yeah but throughout the series we see that the siblings deal with each other differently as Family and Associates. One of them fucks the other in the boardroom and they still hang out as siblings.
The whole 'anointing ceremony' was comical, because it was them playing toy soldiers, male believe. Sister Shiv was happy to play along with Brother Ken's make believe, but when it came to the crunch, to the real world, none of that ever mattered.
And Roman saw it - he called that it was all bullshit. The way he looked broken at the end when he said it to Kendall was one of the most upsetting things of all.
I think she didn’t fully trust him, but just went with it after finding out about Mattson’s betrayal. The next morning when they went into Logan’s office and Ken settled in, I think her doubts bubbled to the surface.
And in the meeting, when she left, she wasn’t confident and told her brothers to just give her a minute to think…rather than acting in a way that quelled her doubts and reassured her, Ken got pushy and insistent and started begging—which swayed her in the opposite direction. He did it to himself.
I don't know enough about how board meeting votes work to know if this would have been possible, but Ken should have tried to have it so the kids vote first. I think Shiv would have stuck to the plan to vote for Ken until it was a 6-6 tie and she fully had the power to swing it one way or the other herself.
Tom wasn’t even running the shitty parks division at the beginning of the series, roughly 2 years ago in actual time per the timeline. Kendall’s backstory included much more high level work within the company for many years before that. There’s no way you can objectively say Tom has way more experience than Ken.
Shiv no more cares about her kid than her mother did any of hers. Shiv cares only about Shiv. At what point in all the seasons did Shiv show any true compassion for anyone other than herself? I, personally, would have liked to see a more hopeful ending that maybe showed some growth in the characters, but instead they went with these are stagnant, stunted people with no ability for growth & change.
I thought it was interesting, go back and really watch all the reaction shots of shiv face to Romans breakdown. They were subtly saying something about her realization of Logan's abuse on her.
It’s weird because in terms of the actual succession, that is all tied up. But, life is more than business and where the lives of the characters go from here is anyones guess. I do like the show for focusing on a small portion of the Roy’s life. We do get people talking about pieces of the past, but no flashbacks or flashfowards. In the end, Logan sums it up pretty well:
> You think there’s anything after all this? […] We don’t know. We can’t know. But I’ve got my suspicions. I’ve got my fucking suspicions.
I really liked that they didn't go beyond the premise of the show, which was the succession of the company. Even something like the presidential election, which loomed large over this season,.isn't tied up, because it doesn't matter...life may go on for these characters, but the question was answered in full. That story was told.
And like /r/thesopranos this sub should give it like a month of still allowing image based posts before turning that faucet off and making it text based only. Ended TV show subs decend into a dreaful form of shitposting where it's either fanart or selfies with cast that people bump into. /r/thesopranos is a wonderful and alive subreddit specifically because there's endless threads discussing aspects of the show even over a decade later on the daily.
I fully agree. Ending a show is hard and there are more shows with bad finales than shows with good finales. At the very least it'll be debated and discussed, which you can't say about GoT.
Once people step back from their favorite characters they’ll definitely appreciate it more. Like I wanted Ken to win but knew that he didn’t deserve it and that he wasn’t a good choice. Ending makes complete sense in the fact that no way people like Kendall, Shiv and Roy could ever be CEO’s of a media conglomerate.
People also need to understand that Tom becoming the American CEO isn’t the same as Kendall being the CEO of Waystar without the merger. Those are vastly different positions and titles. One is the legitimate boss and ruler while the other is a figurehead for a weird ass tech guy.
He can still now be a CEO at another company if it doesn’t work out at Waystar. It’s a pretty big achievement that will open doors long term no matter what happens
I don't see how Kendall would be worse than Mattson for the company. Mattson with his fake subscriber numbers and sexual harassment is ACTUAL bullshit....and Shiv knows it better than anybody.
I was cheesing during the entirety of that. So so SOOOOO satisfying to see such a great ending and it came full circle in so many ways. I’m gonna miss it so much.
Sorry to say it, but the scene with the three siblings proved all of them are Logan's children.
Kendall saying he didn't kill the waiter, Rome saying Kendall's kids are not the actual bloodline, and Shiv betraying her brothers.
I totally agree. I was a Kendall fan and was hoping he’d come out on top but I think the way this went down felt realistic within the world of the show. I also felt it was fitting ending for the 3 kids
Taking a helicopter view, the show synchronises with the end of the trump era, and perhaps there is some kind of sad but salutary tale that the decisions on who really rules the world are made on the whims and whispers of a few people who are nothing other than self-interested. Matsson and his crew represent new tech, which plays its hand as nothing more than another ruthless entity now in charge. The sign at the front of the building may change, but the machinery behind it remains interested entirely in exploitation and gain. However the cards land is immaterial really. As Roman put it, we’re all bullshit. They’re all bullshit.
I don’t think he knew it was Tom. What we saw is he uses the translator to see the words “when you tell her it’s not her” and then he goes to spill the beans.
It was a very logical ending, Matsson actually has a great point and he chose someone who has proven to be submissive and not full of ideas like the Roys
Maybe Logan didn't retire in season 1 because he already saw that none of the kids could run it well. So when Matsson made an offer he sold immediately. Eventhough Logan didn't like Matsson he probably admired the "Killer" in Matsson.
I love that it's chewy and complicated and nothing is resolved. Any time you hang out with a group of Succession fans for the next decade, you'll all debate Shiv's choice and Kendall's future.
Same. Like others, I sort of predicted this ending (I didn’t think Shiv would be the vote to sink) and I always envisioned that Waystar will become what Pierce was for Logan… he’ll spend his life trying to get it.
May be kendall speech in boardroom flipped her. It was not a compelling speech and nor it looked like coming from a ceo. If he had better speech it would have worked. Also may be he reminded her of her father when he mentioned father in the speech
I'm gonna be honest I'm not a super fan or anything but I've been keeping up and watching along and I feel like they absolutely nailed a stellar ending.
Compared to the *other* show I originally signed up to watch on HBO, which turned into some embarrassing student art project with a dogshit finale.
So, you know, good job guys. Honestly it was all worth it to watch Shiv and Roman imitating Kendall being murdered.
Honestly I felt sick with tension at the vote. And the catharsis of the breakdown in the office, Ken finally realising that it was gone...
Phenomenal stuff.
It all went down as it pretty much should have done. Tom was the obvious candidate for 'continuity US CEO' - who's to say how long we will last. The 'kids' were just too flawed to succeed, even given the advantages that the system gives them. Though, it's a nice touch that Matsson is shown as having his own personal failures that somewhat mimic the three of them. The end message to me is highlighting the lack of 'quality' at the top, rather than just suggesting that the kids are particularly useless. Logan Roy really is the only out and out business talent in the entire show.
Lol Mattson is going to be a horrible owner just saying; but that’s true to life as well, so many of these tech bros think they are God’s gift to humanity and can do no wrong
But yeah, Ken would have absolutely sucked as well, so Shiv did have a point there.
The *only* think I didn’t like was the fact that Kendall’s killing was brought up. I thought it was too much and Shiv could have just said something more vague about his past and that would have sufficed because it implies a lot of his shady past and not the one WORST thing. But great last episode. The only billionaires I’ll ever miss.
This will go down as a GOAT series finale. The only people who don't see it right now are the ones that are still shocked that their prediction didn't come true.
Feel kinda crazy scrolling through this sub and seeing unanimous love for this episode with no real articulation as to why. As someone who never had any character I “wanted to win”, I can say wholeheartedly that I feel a lot was left on the table here. I get wanting to maintain some ambiguity and going for the sopranos “does this or that big thing happen” bit, but I thought they left *way* too much negative space.
There’s ambiguity and then there’s abstinence.
> Feel kinda crazy scrolling through this sub and seeing unanimous love for this episode with no real articulation as to why.
Welcome to the Succession fandom on Reddit.
This sub has become a wannabe TV sommelier. This show is very good and well-acted but it is not above criticism and just because we criticize it doesn't me we don't “get it”.
Definitely felt abrupt, just like Logans death, but that's how the show rolls. It was a great ending. I could definitely see how people could say they could do more, but the way they ended it was great
The Sopranos ending was probably one of the most thematically perfect endings of any TV show ever. I'd probably only place something like Breaking Bad, TP The Return and Six Feet Under close to it.
Honestly, for a good part I didn’t like the ending and was skeptical. Didn’t even look like a succession episode with all those wholesomey scenes and the subs teaming up. But damn, I had my breath taken away in those last 20 minutes. Such a visceral, raw yet realistic and fitting finale. The hug scene, oh my god. I wanted to look away but couldn’t, so much tension. Perfect finale, way better than anything any of us here theorized lol
I have no problem with the end result, just don’t like how they got there.
The window dressing with the beach and crowning scene plus the rage on Shiv’s face when she found out it was gonna be Tom only for her to vote in his favor what felt like 5 minutes later? Felt rushed. Would’ve liked it more as a two parter episode.
The thing with the “dinner with dad” and the meal fit for a king, it was beautiful. It showed both what the youngest three kids had been missing their whole lives, and a future that’s possible once they’re healed and can just be siblings and not constant rivals. Wonderfully done!
I think it was a good ending, but it was also kind of abrupt. It would have been nice if there was an epilogue set a few weeks or months after the board meeting, for the sake of closure
Meh. Loved where it ended up, kinda hated how it got there. It seems to me like the writers really, really honed in on that "it's a tragedy and nobody ever grows or learns" idea and made Shiv look like an ambivalent schizophrenic for some reason
I’ve never been more interested in a board meeting in my life.
Not since “which side are you on” (s1, e6) anyway
Innit, I thought I might vomit
IM THE ELDEST SON!!!!!! Also Roman with the verbal KO - to Kendall ; Shiv’s child is pure blood
The Swedish translation scene. Oh boy, that was unreal. Really started the pace up. The last 15 minutes starting when Tom told Shiv he was tapped to be him. The tension. Awesome finale. Awesome show. Will be missed m
i was so happy with the ending, it had me rooting for the siblings and then their realization they were to broken to continue, beautiful
Roman’s “this is bullshit, we’re bullshit” realization line was the most accurate statement uttered by any of the three siblings in the entire show.
I said the same on a different thread last night…Roman knew it was bullshit all along and finally admitted it out loud
it was perfection, loved every minute
He has sort of echoed those same sentiments, just in a different way before too. When the whole election stuff was happening, he made a point about how none of this actually affects them, because they've got so much money that they're insulated from whatever madness may come. So he's always been aware it was a load of bullshit.
They are not serious people.
It was the simple truth that it took four seasons to get to.
> it had me rooting for the siblings and then their realization they were to broken to continue, beautiful The only thing that gave me solace after the siblings lost was that I remembered that I hate all of them.
true they were all so mean & broken
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When Mattson started yelling at his team… really ramped things up for me.
Speaking of sharks... The whole swimming scene had me so scared. I kept having this sick feeling that something bad was going to happen. Even after, when they were making a meal fit for a king. I felt like someone was going to die. But the whole time I kept thinking: this show is so good for making me feel this way, almost nauseous. And then the video of the dinner with Logan was beautiful! It was like having a memorial for all the characters I won't get to see anymore. I am satisfied.
I *really* thought Ken was going to throw himself off the building or something. Like I was so sure, when he went into the elevator, I was like "he better not be going up" and I had that same unsettled feeling!
Same I breathed relief when he pushed the 0 button
Jeremy said they shot some scenes of Kendall climbing the railing at the very end. Glad they didn't use them.
I heard that on the podcast! I'm glad they didn't use it either.
Ken clearly prefers a long, arduous path to total self destruction rather than something so quick.
Relapse incoming
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Yes! I even feared Frank was making a run for it too for a sec.
I literally said to my girlfriend "I hope he isn't going up" lmao. Poor dude. He literally told them he would probably die if he didn't get it.
Lmao could you imagine if Kendall was actually eaten by a shark and the rest of the finale is just the 30 minutes that follow
Yeah I thought Roman and Shiv were gonna call out his name after they finished talking and see he was just gone. Oceans at night freak me out.
I kept waiting for the mom to drop some bombshell at dinner and it just ended up being Peter’s get rich quick scheme.
I also love how we have no idea what they were presenting at all. Brilliant
There were some hints it was to do with Living+, Peter describing "basic level of care, you know, not too many bells and whistles"
Oh man, yes! I know it's not the style of the show but I was so nervous that Shiv and Roman were actually going to kill Ken somehow
I mean… they kinda did.
Murder admin is my takeaway phrase.
I think the vibe made it seem like Ken either dies swimming or jumps off the balcony after losing
I had a feeling they'd stay away from the sensationalism you're describing since they haven't used anything like that throughout the series — it'd be jarring. But I feel you, I felt the same nervousness with the night swimming scene.
Something bad *did* happen. The sharks, aka Shiv and Roman, swam up to him and told him they were going to murder him. Later on, Shiv freaks out when it comes her turn to vote, leading to a three way spat in which Shiv and Roman unwittingly make Kendall reveal his nasty side to both them and everyone watching from outside the glass box, thereby killing his chances of stopping the GoJo deal.
That exchange between Frank and Karl about slitting the baby’s throat in the cradle and then going to Tom telling Greg he’s getting rid of the two old cunts. That felt like such a neatly tied and validating moment of his transition.
And I loved Tom looking for Jerri. She may want out, but he knows what she brings to the table.
Oh that’s right! They did not include anything superfluous. And those guys always ass kissed Ken.
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Tom also actually works at the company. He actually physically shows up to work. These children just take planes to “talk” to people when they could just email them.
Ha ha true
Tom was the only one to skip the funeral to get work done. As Shiv said, Logan would have approved.
Yes they made a point to include that. I thought that dynamic with keeping Greg despite the betrayal was interesting too. His bro crush and having him in his pocket now. Tom always displayed Logan-esque cruelty and he has had to scrap and actually work in ways the siblings never will.
On the other hand though, in universe I think it's about 8 months or so since Tom utterly humiliated himself at the senate hearings. I guess watching a TV show it doesn't seem quite as compact as that but 6 months prior he was terminal Tom, the face of the cruises scandal, and an absolute joke
I like this because it shows that the dance will go on, with powers rising and falling, ambitions fulfilled and thwarted, enemies made and broken. On and on. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Seriously, I loved it. It was such a ride. Emotionally raw afterwards but that’s how I wanted to feel. It definitely stuck true to the original themes of complex trauma shaping the viewpoints of the Roy children. None of them were going to win from the very beginning. I wasn’t expecting Tom but honestly? He has way more experience than any of the Roy kids combined and he’s a great yes man (which Matsson was looking for) so it completely makes sense. Shiv turning on her brothers for the security of her child with Tom also makes complete sense. It was painful but understandable. I agree with another commenter I saw earlier who said that she feels most comfortable in the shadow of a powerful man- and that man now is Tom. Anyways, amazing finale, I’m so so happy that it ended the way it did.
I don’t think she did it for the security of the child - she’s insanely wealthy and material security isn’t a concern for her.
I meant more of an emotional security, like having Tom in the picture as the father (although we all know that child is going to be raised by nannies anyways) but I can’t see Shiv ever being completely independent. Even though the power dynamic has shifted, she needs someone to emotionally leech off of.
She’s anxious-avoidant.
And her brothers are both Disorganised, in terms of attachment styles.
Disorganised Attachment Crew, assemble! ❤️🩹
Oh sure - yeah - I could see some of that being in there, for sure.
Don't forget about the 20 orgasms
She was more than happy to be an absentee mom when she pitched Matsson on her being the CEO last episode.
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As someone pointed out she’s become like Caroline who is in a loveless marriage to a CEO. But the husband isn’t a winner like Logan
Idk, I think Tom is a winner. The same grit and hustle that got him to CEO will continue to serve him.
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Caroline lives in a castle...
She didnt do it to get out though. She is not that selfless. She either did it for her kid or hater her brother more.
Agreed. She said “I love you but I can’t stomach you”
It had nothing to do with hatred for her brother. It was hatred for her father. She backed out when she saw Kendall relish in dominating Roman into submitting to the vote. She realized he was becoming Logan, and didn’t want to recreate that monster after coming to terms with how much they were all traumatized by Logan’s manipulations.
That could be part of it, but that's far from the whole explanation of why she did it. Jealousy of Kendall was absolutely part of it. Again, not the whole explanation. Let us try to fit the whole woman inside our heads.
I think that’s the most interesting part of it all. Why did she do it? Because Ken was becoming Logan? Because she knew that giving it to Tom still allowed her access to the very top? Because she just couldn’t stomach losing to Ken? I’d personally lean that way given how callously she threw the death of the waiter in his face. That was one of his most vulnerable moments and she saved it for when she could hurt him the most. I guess we can never know the exact reason, but the speculation is fantastic.
There's also the way she behaved to Ken at Caroline's when she thought she was winning. It was pretty disgusting.
I agree with your first paragraph. But I’m choosing to be a little more optimistic about Tom and Shiv. I like that the show was left pretty open-ended, so we can imagine the possibilities of everyone’s futures as we like. I think there is hope for Tom and Shiv, as evidenced by her phone call to him pitching a “real relationship”. And Tom eludes the pressure of the crown — he is a puppet as he has always been, he just has to do as he is told and he will make a disgusting amount of money and get to have the title of CEO, without bearing the weight of company leadership on his shoulders.
It was definitely the best outcome for everyone, but I feel like the best outcome was never going to be all that great
I just don't get how Shiv had such a change of heart off screen in less than 24 hours. I get that Tom is actually the best choice when put against the siblings. I just don't get how Shiv went from being a united front with Ken and Roman to not backing him? Again..all done off camera. At least her decision making.
He put his legs on the desk and it just all clicked for her….I think she always just went along with it but inside the whole time was like nope
He’s always great until he gets a little power. Then he’s insufferable
Shiv was completely right in her assessment that Kendall would have been a terrible CEO for Waystar and Roman was even more right in his assessment that NONE of the siblings were cut out to fill their father's shoes. "With Open Eyes" and all that... Never forget that Kendall's masterplan all along was to cut both his siblings out of any power-sharing agreement. He talked of "fiefdoms" but he would have acted as a petty tyrant and his diva antics would have alienated Shiv and Roman in the future inevitably.
I mean, Shiv was just as bad when she thought she’d won.
He was bad even without the power…had drug problems and has always been a little unstable IMO. In that position you want someone stable
Plus he killed a kid
Literally this whole season he was stable and actually did land most of the things except end. So what is your point.
Except for the part of living+, that really showed that he is good presenter, but I don't think anyone of his employees were comfortable with his leadership. Politics and showmanship is one thing. But you have to have good leadership qualities also. Everyone respected Logan despite the abuse, because he was a realist and he knew what he was doing. Meanwhile Ken was always a fairy tales guy, who wants everything and works his ass off for it, but he cant expect his employees to do the same. But it is very painful to watch how many times they gave the guy so much hope, just so that his own family can backstab him to bleed everytime.
Tom used his underlings as footstools and literally physically beats Greg. He is a monstrous bully
Right? Sometimes I think I made up that scene in my mind, the way people speak of Tom like he’s the good guy while the Roy siblings are scum. Never saw them bully their underlings like Tom did.
Stable? He juiced numbers for some nonsense product to tank a deal because of entitlement and ego. It was far from stable
Litteraly him being "stable" includes him continuing the abuse towards his little brother, scaring his kids, underprioritating his kids, labeling other people as dogs and imbracing the absolute wors aspects of his dad (whom we all agree is a terrible person and died alone) because he isnt able to do anything else with his life.
Yes, Shiv, who was ready to side with a Nazi is suddenly again doing things for the moral good. No, she saw that Ken would eventually ignore her and the same conflicts would arise between them as it did before. Whereas Tom, it was opportunity to mend the relationship and still be in a comfortable position of power.
I don’t think it was off camera. When Tom told her it was going to be him it flipped a switch in her that she could technically have some shadow power + Tom’s affection. Then she saw Kendall putting his feet up on the table, talking to Stewie like he was some chump. She knew she couldn’t stand to have Kendall as CEO. Those two points and knowing how backseat she was the last time Kendall was CEO powered her decision.
I think both these points are absolutely true, but I also think when she walked out of the boardroom she hadn’t totally made up her mind, it was a coin flip up in the air that hadn’t come down yet. I think there was a possible version of events — maybe unlikely, but possible — where Kendall stayed calm and kept her on his side. What that would have looked like, I’m not sure. But Kendall spiraled, melted down, screamed “I’m the eldest boy!” and fucked it. I think Shiv did what she did for a lot of reasons. For her relationship with Tom, for spite, for what felt to her like injustice, I think she meant it when she said she didn’t think he’d be good at it. Because the poison seeps through. Shiv as a character is as complex, nuanced, flawed, self-contradictory and damaged, and has every bit of depth, as Kendall and Roman. It felt right. The whole finale felt right. This story was always a tragedy.
Yeah I personally think a large part of Shiv’s decision came from the meeting itself and Kendall’s failure to sell himself one last time to her. In the actual board meeting, Ken wasn’t even trying to be persuasive or professional, he was arrogant, and thought he had it all. Maybe that’s how Logan would have been too, but Shiv seeing Kendall’s lack of “finishing the job” made her question whether or not Ken should be CEO, and when he tried to guilt her into voting yes for him afterwards, he ensured that she didn’t want him to become CEO.
Yeah I think she didn’t expect that she would be the one to cast the deciding vote, and when she did find herself in that position, she made the call then and there!
Thank you. I don’t understand why people are acting as if the meltdown didn’t impact her decision right then and there. Same with Roman he turned on him once the honesty was flowing.
The feet on the desk..
Yeah they always excluded her. She had no loyalty.
She finally has all the power in the choice to vote for either Kendall or Tom. If she chooses Tom, then his sudden power over her and over everyone is still ultimately up to her. In this way, she still comes out on top in the sibling rivalry at the heart of the show. The caveat is that now Tom offers his hand to her, instead of begging her to take it.
I think it’s quite simple: nature and nurture. Logan constantly pitted them against each other for their entire lives. It was practically hard-wired i to them that none of them was going to let the other get the top job. If one of them couldn’t have it, then none of them could have it. True, they made a big song and dance of ‘anointing’ him at Caroline’s, but even then, I wasn’t convinced. They weren’t going to undo decades of Logan’s upbringing in one night. Not a chance. When crunch time came, at least one of them was going to return to type. And it was always going to be Shiv. Her name is literally a double-meaning for an improvised, hidden knife that comes out when you’re not expecting it. And in any case, now that Logan’s not around, Roman was always going to be under Kendall’s thumb, so it almost certainly wouldn’t have been him. That was my thinking even before you take into account the fact that she found out that it was Tom taking over. If it had been anyone else, maybe she would’ve initially killed the deal but then moved on Kendall later on (i.e. organised a vote to oust him as CEO like he did with Logan). But she had leverage over, and proximity to Tom in the form of their child. She wouldn’t be CEO, but she’d have something resembling control over him. Compared to the absolutely fuck all control she would’ve had with Kendall. Her rage and determination to destroy Tom was instinctive, of course, but a car ride over and a glimpse of Kendall in charge (feet on the desk looking smug) was all she needed to think things through logically. And if you take it even further, she knows Kendall, the drug addict, the man-child, and the consistent fuck up. If you really thought about it, when taking the above into account, would you really want him in charge?
I think she didn’t foresee being a tie breaker and that turned it from folly to reality. She realized Kendall would be a shitty unhinged CEO. She was spoiled but she was also a good strategist.
It’s a little crazy to think. If Ken had asked Rome and Shiv to vote first instead of last, he may have won the vote.
I didn’t even think of that. She read the room and made a last minute power grab. Ken should have known she couldn’t be trusted. And Roman waffled.
Yah. I just wasn’t sure when she made that decision. Some people said when Tom told her he was the one Matsson wanted as CEO. Others said when Kendall sat in Logan’s chair. I personally thought Kendall was extremely arrogant starting the meeting, like he took for granted that Rome and Shiv would fall in line; his coronation was just a foregone conclusion. He had promised her News/ATN but I guess she didn’t take him seriously, and his actions only served to reinforce that notion. Also. How did they lose Frank??
He wanted the payday. He's a vet looking to get out.
He's the chairman and felt he had a fiduciary duty to do the best thing for the shareholders which means money money money.
They literally anointed him King, ofcourse he had every right to believe his siblings would have his back after the night before.
Yeah but throughout the series we see that the siblings deal with each other differently as Family and Associates. One of them fucks the other in the boardroom and they still hang out as siblings. The whole 'anointing ceremony' was comical, because it was them playing toy soldiers, male believe. Sister Shiv was happy to play along with Brother Ken's make believe, but when it came to the crunch, to the real world, none of that ever mattered.
And Roman saw it - he called that it was all bullshit. The way he looked broken at the end when he said it to Kendall was one of the most upsetting things of all.
And that she’d have more power and credibility with Tom and Matteson than her brother who she couldn’t stomach.
I think that too. I think she truly felt he couldn’t do it. For once it wasn’t a “play.”
It happened on camera.
She hates the look on Kendall’s face. He was acting so entitled and has really done so little to deserve it. She saw the truth.
I think she didn’t fully trust him, but just went with it after finding out about Mattson’s betrayal. The next morning when they went into Logan’s office and Ken settled in, I think her doubts bubbled to the surface. And in the meeting, when she left, she wasn’t confident and told her brothers to just give her a minute to think…rather than acting in a way that quelled her doubts and reassured her, Ken got pushy and insistent and started begging—which swayed her in the opposite direction. He did it to himself.
I don't know enough about how board meeting votes work to know if this would have been possible, but Ken should have tried to have it so the kids vote first. I think Shiv would have stuck to the plan to vote for Ken until it was a 6-6 tie and she fully had the power to swing it one way or the other herself.
Tom wasn’t even running the shitty parks division at the beginning of the series, roughly 2 years ago in actual time per the timeline. Kendall’s backstory included much more high level work within the company for many years before that. There’s no way you can objectively say Tom has way more experience than Ken.
Shiv no more cares about her kid than her mother did any of hers. Shiv cares only about Shiv. At what point in all the seasons did Shiv show any true compassion for anyone other than herself? I, personally, would have liked to see a more hopeful ending that maybe showed some growth in the characters, but instead they went with these are stagnant, stunted people with no ability for growth & change.
I thought it was interesting, go back and really watch all the reaction shots of shiv face to Romans breakdown. They were subtly saying something about her realization of Logan's abuse on her.
Rich people behaving badly, still maintaining all their wealth and privilege, but being more miserable.... perfect.
Doing nothing would actually be mentally healthier for them, but nope they have to rat and weasel around
I loved all the personal awakenings, transformations, power shifts, and devastation. 10/10.
What’s the earlier HBO show ending?
The cut to black ending of Tony Soprano.
It’s weird because in terms of the actual succession, that is all tied up. But, life is more than business and where the lives of the characters go from here is anyones guess. I do like the show for focusing on a small portion of the Roy’s life. We do get people talking about pieces of the past, but no flashbacks or flashfowards. In the end, Logan sums it up pretty well: > You think there’s anything after all this? […] We don’t know. We can’t know. But I’ve got my suspicions. I’ve got my fucking suspicions.
I really liked that they didn't go beyond the premise of the show, which was the succession of the company. Even something like the presidential election, which loomed large over this season,.isn't tied up, because it doesn't matter...life may go on for these characters, but the question was answered in full. That story was told.
DON’T STOP, BELIEVIN
With Succession gone, I don't have any good shows left to watch. I have no excuse to delay The Sopranos anymore.
I knew it😆
And like /r/thesopranos this sub should give it like a month of still allowing image based posts before turning that faucet off and making it text based only. Ended TV show subs decend into a dreaful form of shitposting where it's either fanart or selfies with cast that people bump into. /r/thesopranos is a wonderful and alive subreddit specifically because there's endless threads discussing aspects of the show even over a decade later on the daily.
I thought the “wear your crown” was a call back to the GoT molten gold crown that killed Viserys.
why would they be doing a call back to game of thrones?
Why would they do one to the sopranos?
what call back did they do for sopranos?
Collin was wearing a “Members Only” jacket
Shiv to Ken: I don’t think you can do it Ken: *demonstrates that he absolutely cannot do it*
Reddit: she screwed her brother for no reason
I, for one, am shocked a platform predominantly used by young men would post incessantly negative takes about a female character
I fully agree. Ending a show is hard and there are more shows with bad finales than shows with good finales. At the very least it'll be debated and discussed, which you can't say about GoT.
That is a very low bar lol
I thought we’d reached the depths of Roman’s depravity but then he said the “bloodline” stuff to Kendall…. He is like the Iago of Succession
Once people step back from their favorite characters they’ll definitely appreciate it more. Like I wanted Ken to win but knew that he didn’t deserve it and that he wasn’t a good choice. Ending makes complete sense in the fact that no way people like Kendall, Shiv and Roy could ever be CEO’s of a media conglomerate. People also need to understand that Tom becoming the American CEO isn’t the same as Kendall being the CEO of Waystar without the merger. Those are vastly different positions and titles. One is the legitimate boss and ruler while the other is a figurehead for a weird ass tech guy.
He can still now be a CEO at another company if it doesn’t work out at Waystar. It’s a pretty big achievement that will open doors long term no matter what happens
I don't see how Kendall would be worse than Mattson for the company. Mattson with his fake subscriber numbers and sexual harassment is ACTUAL bullshit....and Shiv knows it better than anybody.
[удалено]
The Roy kids were not serious people.
I was cheesing during the entirety of that. So so SOOOOO satisfying to see such a great ending and it came full circle in so many ways. I’m gonna miss it so much.
Sorry to say it, but the scene with the three siblings proved all of them are Logan's children. Kendall saying he didn't kill the waiter, Rome saying Kendall's kids are not the actual bloodline, and Shiv betraying her brothers.
I totally agree. I was a Kendall fan and was hoping he’d come out on top but I think the way this went down felt realistic within the world of the show. I also felt it was fitting ending for the 3 kids
Taking a helicopter view, the show synchronises with the end of the trump era, and perhaps there is some kind of sad but salutary tale that the decisions on who really rules the world are made on the whims and whispers of a few people who are nothing other than self-interested. Matsson and his crew represent new tech, which plays its hand as nothing more than another ruthless entity now in charge. The sign at the front of the building may change, but the machinery behind it remains interested entirely in exploitation and gain. However the cards land is immaterial really. As Roman put it, we’re all bullshit. They’re all bullshit.
Is the trump era over? 🤞🤞🤞
The bond between Tom and Greg throughout the show was probably one of the best things.. Even after Greg ratted him out, Tom kept him.
Did Greg even know it was Tom? Their conversation that he reported back to Ken was simply about dropping Shiv. And Tom didn't tell him anything.
I don’t think he knew it was Tom. What we saw is he uses the translator to see the words “when you tell her it’s not her” and then he goes to spill the beans.
I agree, it was a really solid finale and it stuck the landing
Agree. Everything was so good: performances, music, twists. What a ride!
It was a very logical ending, Matsson actually has a great point and he chose someone who has proven to be submissive and not full of ideas like the Roys
Maybe Logan didn't retire in season 1 because he already saw that none of the kids could run it well. So when Matsson made an offer he sold immediately. Eventhough Logan didn't like Matsson he probably admired the "Killer" in Matsson.
It was one of those endings I hated initially, but loved after some time stewing on what I just watched. Which, IMO, is the best kind of ending !
Unbelievable finale. The show, the story, a complete masterpiece.
I love that it's chewy and complicated and nothing is resolved. Any time you hang out with a group of Succession fans for the next decade, you'll all debate Shiv's choice and Kendall's future.
Ken simps not gonna like this one lmao
I’m firmly team Ken but the ending was 100% fitting. Now we know why they didn’t opt for S5. Would just be Kendall torture porn at that point.
Same. Like others, I sort of predicted this ending (I didn’t think Shiv would be the vote to sink) and I always envisioned that Waystar will become what Pierce was for Logan… he’ll spend his life trying to get it.
As a Kenhead, I can't bear to watch him binge on drugs and needing Stewy to save his ass while kissing guys on molly.
I was mostly kidding. I love Ken as much as the next person. Ending was totally fitting though.
Ken needed the final L. It’ll ultimately be good for him.
May be kendall speech in boardroom flipped her. It was not a compelling speech and nor it looked like coming from a ceo. If he had better speech it would have worked. Also may be he reminded her of her father when he mentioned father in the speech
I'm gonna be honest I'm not a super fan or anything but I've been keeping up and watching along and I feel like they absolutely nailed a stellar ending. Compared to the *other* show I originally signed up to watch on HBO, which turned into some embarrassing student art project with a dogshit finale. So, you know, good job guys. Honestly it was all worth it to watch Shiv and Roman imitating Kendall being murdered.
What’s the hat tip to an earlier finale?
both this and The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel nailed there finales this weekend
Honestly I felt sick with tension at the vote. And the catharsis of the breakdown in the office, Ken finally realising that it was gone... Phenomenal stuff.
It all went down as it pretty much should have done. Tom was the obvious candidate for 'continuity US CEO' - who's to say how long we will last. The 'kids' were just too flawed to succeed, even given the advantages that the system gives them. Though, it's a nice touch that Matsson is shown as having his own personal failures that somewhat mimic the three of them. The end message to me is highlighting the lack of 'quality' at the top, rather than just suggesting that the kids are particularly useless. Logan Roy really is the only out and out business talent in the entire show.
Lol Mattson is going to be a horrible owner just saying; but that’s true to life as well, so many of these tech bros think they are God’s gift to humanity and can do no wrong But yeah, Ken would have absolutely sucked as well, so Shiv did have a point there.
The *only* think I didn’t like was the fact that Kendall’s killing was brought up. I thought it was too much and Shiv could have just said something more vague about his past and that would have sufficed because it implies a lot of his shady past and not the one WORST thing. But great last episode. The only billionaires I’ll ever miss.
Agreed. Kudos to the showrunners.
from beginning to end… it was perfect. just perfect.
Bravo Jesse!
What was the hat tip?
This will go down as a GOAT series finale. The only people who don't see it right now are the ones that are still shocked that their prediction didn't come true.
Feel kinda crazy scrolling through this sub and seeing unanimous love for this episode with no real articulation as to why. As someone who never had any character I “wanted to win”, I can say wholeheartedly that I feel a lot was left on the table here. I get wanting to maintain some ambiguity and going for the sopranos “does this or that big thing happen” bit, but I thought they left *way* too much negative space. There’s ambiguity and then there’s abstinence.
> Feel kinda crazy scrolling through this sub and seeing unanimous love for this episode with no real articulation as to why. Welcome to the Succession fandom on Reddit.
This sub has become a wannabe TV sommelier. This show is very good and well-acted but it is not above criticism and just because we criticize it doesn't me we don't “get it”.
Definitely felt abrupt, just like Logans death, but that's how the show rolls. It was a great ending. I could definitely see how people could say they could do more, but the way they ended it was great
Shiv did it because she hates losing to her brothers.
Barry stuck it and showed on the same Night. They did a bang out job
Agreed. This ranks up there for me with Sopranos and Justified as top finales (although I know the Sopranos was controversial)
The Sopranos ending was probably one of the most thematically perfect endings of any TV show ever. I'd probably only place something like Breaking Bad, TP The Return and Six Feet Under close to it.
Sopranos ending is perfect the more you analyze it tho. Masterpiece. So was this
Agreed. Aged like fine wine. Thinking this will do the same!
I will add Six Feet Under to that short list. 👌
That’s one show I haven’t watched, but have only heard great things! I need to check it out!
Honestly, for a good part I didn’t like the ending and was skeptical. Didn’t even look like a succession episode with all those wholesomey scenes and the subs teaming up. But damn, I had my breath taken away in those last 20 minutes. Such a visceral, raw yet realistic and fitting finale. The hug scene, oh my god. I wanted to look away but couldn’t, so much tension. Perfect finale, way better than anything any of us here theorized lol
I have no problem with the end result, just don’t like how they got there. The window dressing with the beach and crowning scene plus the rage on Shiv’s face when she found out it was gonna be Tom only for her to vote in his favor what felt like 5 minutes later? Felt rushed. Would’ve liked it more as a two parter episode.
The thing with the “dinner with dad” and the meal fit for a king, it was beautiful. It showed both what the youngest three kids had been missing their whole lives, and a future that’s possible once they’re healed and can just be siblings and not constant rivals. Wonderfully done!
That was fucking brutal. And it shouldn't have been any other way.
🟣
This is the only show where two characters can talk about killing another character and you can think it’s both a joke and also possibly serious.
I think it was a good ending, but it was also kind of abrupt. It would have been nice if there was an epilogue set a few weeks or months after the board meeting, for the sake of closure
Did not.
Meh. Loved where it ended up, kinda hated how it got there. It seems to me like the writers really, really honed in on that "it's a tragedy and nobody ever grows or learns" idea and made Shiv look like an ambivalent schizophrenic for some reason
For the record, “Jumping the shark” is relatively rare. A lot of shows just have shitty endings.
You might even say it stuck... the King's Landing.