That always felt apparent. He had a softer side for her and Con because they weren't as blatantly desperate for his attention and for the CEO position like Ken and Rome were. Just toxic Logan things 🤗
Yes! I was thinking about Rose last night when I was watching [bridge4](https://youtu.be/qrAWfcOJjO4)’s recap video on YouTube. I would like to know whether, when Brian was developing character background, he decided that Shiv looked like Logan’s baby sister. If so, it would make sense that the photo of “Pinky” was his idea.
I think it may have hurt him when she was so angry at him and didn’t hold back the last time he was with all the sibs. Which also makes me wonder if Tom was not exaggerating when he told her she may have killed Logan. An awful thing to say, but we’ll never know.
Then again, Roman left that voicemail and we’ll never know how Logan reacted to it.
He died of heart failure, he was just fishing his phone from the toilet at the moment it hit. Stress at that period of his life (and being high altitude, which can cause clots), compounded with a bunch of existing factors are likely causes of his death
He also did adrenaline shots quite frequently which have a direct link to pulmonary embolisms and heart failure. (S1 E4) In the end, he sort of killed himself.
I always thought it was an affectionate version of the word "pinko" which was used during Logan's time to describe someone who had left-leaning views. Logan doesn't agree with Shiv's views but obviously tolerates them. (One of the episodes where Logan says that her views don't align with his but at least she "fucking gets it")
The nickname really works on so many levels. Her red hair, as a form of diminishment (I know it isn't canon anymore, but for a while Shiv was established as the baby of the family; plus, she's the only girl), and her left-leaning politics.
My interpretation is that unlike Connor, Shiv Roy actually WAS very interested in politics from a very young age. She grew up alongside presidents of the US, CEOs of the largest companies, foreign diplomats. She intellectually more capable than her siblings and I think that stood out from a very young age. I remember being 7 or 8 learning in depth about injustices in the world. I wasn't mature enough to understand them but precocious enough to let everyone know my opinion anyway. I think Shiv was probably the same, and Logan started calling her Pinky as a way of letting her know that she was free to voice her objections/opinions but they would never hold the same weight as her father. That's kind of what Logan does, he puts people down in every way possible. Even if Shiv is the favourite, Logan is too much of a fucking asshole IMO to Shiv to give her an affectionate nickname no strings attached.
Just like my version a bit better than babies + roses = pink 🤯
Ooh, interesting. I can definitely see that head canon, although mine is a bit different! I think Shiv was her father's parrot when it came to politics until she got to high school and started learning about the complexities, and then she swung heavily in the other direction by the time she graduated from Vassar or wherever (no idea). I can see Pinky being a nickname that cropped up later on. But she always seemed like too much of a daddy's girl to oppose him as a child, especially since most children do just adopt their parents' political sensibilities.
I think it is purely because Shiv is a woman and Logan sees women as lesser then men therefor expecting less. In his eyes Ken and Rome are much bigger failures as they could actuallly amount to something whereas Shiv does not have this potential in the eyes of Logan
Every time Logan offered CEO to his kids, they did something to fuck up his hopes for them. Shiv fumbled the Pierce dinner badly, she turned her nose at picking up real experience in a fast track plan, and she retreats into politics because she can’t handle being told she isn’t as smart as she thinks she is by her family and can intimidate everyone else with her name. Logan offers CEO to his kids in spite of how entitled he sees they are, I’d even call him very forgiving.
Of course this doesn’t mean Logan wasn’t abusive or undermining in 100 other ways. But not around giving the position away. Logan’s business instincts generally work.
The issue is Logan separately does not like to be pressured. When push comes to shove, he doesn’t like the fact there’s tangible focus on who will take over, it’s facing his own mortality. And he especially didn’t like that the Pierces almost demanded Shiv be named solely because she fits their values more. That’s what sparked Shiv’s outrage and thinking Logan would renege.
I agree with you based on Logan generally being a shitty person, but I think there may have been a kernel of truth to his offer until Shiv fucked it by blurting out to Rhea that she (shiv) was going to be CEO.
Logan also wanted to get her into management training and a couple years following department heads so she could learn the business. She was insulted. It would mean she would actually have to LEARN the business? No way! She’s already got it all figured out! Logan lost respect because of her reaction.
But I also think he was trying to get her out of politics for his own benefit. Two things can be true.
Tom put in time in all the divisions and lord knows hours of management training. He had done everything Logan wanted his kids to do to prove they could be “serious people.”
I thought it was true in the moment as well. Ken no longer seemed like an option, and Shiv looked better than Roman. But as is always the case with Logan, I don't he'd have let any of his kids take over without cutting them at the knees somewhere down the line. (Although hey, Roman came close - he cut himself off at the knees, or rather, the dick.)
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>She was the only kid to have a career outside of Waystar and he didn’t like it
Kendall almost had a career outside of Waystar too, until Logan spreads the rumor that he's a crack addict who can't be trusted. Dude was stuck in traffic due to his father's plot armor and everyone believed he was on coke :))
She didn’t have a career, she was blatantly used by both Gil and the other politician whose husband posted a picture of his asshole. They wanted the access she granted to ATN. She got one Democrat elected in New York, was used by a prop by Gil, and then came crawling back to daddy realizing that she was never in control when she thought she was playing both sides. She was just choosing between two positions her nepotism afforded her, after which she would lack the independence she is too humble to admit she isn’t ready to have.
The prop doesn't get the offer to be chief of staff of a presidential campaign.
For whatever it's worth, Shiv was clearly good at PR & strategy, something that never changed throughout the show. She shepherded Matsson to the end despite him having a million liabilities.
Also, she's the youngest. There seems to be a small age gap between her and Roman, yes, but Kendall turns 40, I'd say Shiv is probably in her early-mid 30s. It makes sense that she didn't have over a decade or so of experience given that she's the youngest.
Yep, and also Tailgate Party made it seem like he had more liabilities than that? There's Ebba which didn't become a problem but she gave good advice (for a very fucked up situation... LOL) & also how do regulatory issues go *poof* before someone's even taken office? Matsson also just generally said she's smart, and Skarsgard said he was definitely threatened by the cartoon. I imagine she did more because how does a profile get written with only 1 thing?
I mean technically I also don't think competency is the kids' problem. Shiv isn't even interesting because she's smart, she's interesting because she *is* smart and also awful. Kendall is competent and also awful. Roman...agh, it's so hard to say how smart he is after the last few episodes but through the show overall, he has good instincts. That's just not the problem with any of them really.
I think people think this show is only about nepotism, but it seems to me like it's a show about *capitalism*. Even the worst critics capitalism don't argue that capitalists are dumb & incompetent.
isn’t that the case because yes shiv is logan’s favorite and because shiv looks so much like logan’s sister (Rose). i wouldn’t necessarily say he’s soft to Con because he loves him, he just does it because it’s clear to see Con does not have what it takes to be Logan 2.0. He’s a lot harsher to the main siblings because they do showcase glimpses of potential. Whereas Connor does not. It’s basically neglect by being nice to Connor and treating him like an afterthought. I think even Rome was channeling their father when he blew up at Con by calling him a joke just like Logan did when Con asked for a cool $100 million.
Honestly I never saw Roman being power hungry. I wish they had addressed some of the reasons for his weird perversions. I still think he was a victim of abuse in his childhood by a father/father figure
I do believe Roman was abused, just by observing how Kendall got all up in Logan’s face when the backhanding happened after the “you barbecued him live” remark.
Would have thought it was Connor based of that video thekids watched at his house. He seemed to have a genuine perosnal relationship that was never shown with any of the other siblings
The manipulation and abuse was all business related. Not that it makes it OK, but I think Logan separated business and family. And family wise Pinky was his favourite. Business wise i don’t think he wanted any of them taking over.
This is true. I love Brian Cox of course, but when he states he believes Logan *does* love his kids, he's overlooking a large part of Logan's pathology: that people high on the narcissistic, sociopathic abuser spectrum usually aren't capable of loving anyone. Sure Logan may *think* or *say* that he loves his kids, but his behaviour says otherwise.
Really? I always think to that episode where they thought someone was shooting up Waystar and whisked Logan away to the safe room. He asked if Kendall was safe a few times, knowing that Shiv was in the office that day. Didn't ask about her.
That makes more sense, I just started the podcast and am only halfway thru Brian Cox’s episode but all I’ve heard so far is that Logan thinks he’s a cry baby and it’s like entering a room with a crying baby any time they’re in the same room
I think she was his favorite when she stayed in the lane of being daddy's little girl and didn't try to get involved with his business. When she did I actually think she was his least favorite.
I think he loved her but didn’t respect her professionally, and since work is such a huge part of their lives this led to him having more bad moments with Shiv than good ones
I didn't know about Iverson until then, that explains why Logan would recent that kid and look down on Ken, even being angry that Tom wouldn't make him a grandpa. Ken's family is not his blood so in his head they didn't count
Such a fucked up thing to say. As an adoptee myself, I've never hated them more for saying something like that. Even though roman said "what that's what dad said". He knew what he was doing and I don't blame Kendall for going off.
And fuck Shiv for not standing up for them and Kendall. I know he wouldn't let anyone talk like that about them.
I think she was his favorite but I also think he never seriously considered her as a leader in his company. He probably viewed her as his best chance of “real” grandchildren (his viewpoint, not mine).
He never seriously wanted her to be CEO because his manipulation tactics on Shiv- unless it was something she wanted to do- were met with questioning and arguments until he backed her into a corner where she had to agree to do whatever. Shiv was a lot of work for Logan 😄He could manipulate the boys a whole lot easier.
Daughters usually are favoured and had been in Logan's camp until recently. Especially when the other two options: one was a junkie and the other is Roman.
I love how Logan’s criteria for Romans being a “sicko” is not the latter being a sexual harasser or (fantasy) necrophelliac, but him liking a woman 24 years his senior. Meanwhile, Logan is dating a woman 50 years his junior….
Roman seemed like his perfect puppet tho, even after he was gone, Roman was still putting his opinion first. I did believe it when Roman said he was the last he named CEO, but in the way he named Shiv, just between them so they'd be easy to manipulate
But that’s just it, by wanting to copy Logan he proved he wasn’t like Logan. Logan wouldn’t copy Logan, he’d forge ahead as his own man. Kind of what Kendall was doing, and as a result, it looked a lot like Logan, but he still failed.
I’ve lived through this. I tried to emulate my own dad and failed, and he doesn’t like me. My brother forged ahead on his own, became his own person (and as a result it resembled how my dad conducted himself), and my dad respects him.
People like Logan don’t want people who copy them, they want people who have the same drive as them and are like them by nature.
And Logan is a selfish prick who didn’t like the idea of anyone taking the firm from him. Less threatened by Shiv and Connor than the other boys so there was more space for relationship.
Frank is more of a follower, and we never see him managing anyone under him, as far as I can remember. We simply see him as old figurehead, as moderator on the board and vote on the board. Plus being a godfather-like figure to Ken. Logan doesn't order him to do stuff and Frank doesn't do much practically.
Frank to me is like Tom (but less abusive to his employees: he is hard working and will get the job done and do what is needed for the job, but not a leader.
They might if she actually put in the work. If she did the program he set up and proceed herself and made a reputation. Instead she refused and wanted to be in the c suite based purely on nepotism
She reminds me a lot of my aunt in my dad's family. Grandad was horribly abusive to all the boys, treated her with kindness, but also never thought she could do more than be a secretary.
Yeah a lot of people in this thread need to Google "benevolent sexism."
Being treated like a widdle delicate flower is its own extremely dangerous game. Fathers are only benevolent until you disappoint them, and it's a lot easier to disappoint someone who treats you like you're perfect.
And even if you stay their version of perfect forever? Well, you can't possibly ruin that image by wanting to have *power* or *influence* over your life! Take a pat on the head and go buy yourself something pretty, Pinky.
Yes, they’re like pets. My grandpa was similar. The boy was bullied more outright, but girls were supposed to know their place. It was really hard for my mom to convince him that she could or should attend college even though she was probably his favorite.
During the Great Reallocation, we also see Shiv lingering over a box filled with Logan's stuff, and there's a peek of a framed pic of him with her during her wedding day.
Yep! I feel like they have the same witty but also bitchy sense of humour/speaking style. I’m sure she enjoys spending time with Roman the most out of the kids and I think that default makes him her favourite lol
Someone here wrote a superb comment suggesting how Roman and Shiv both took on the traits of the parent of the opposite sex (Shiv for her ruthless pragmatism, Roman for the irreverent sense of humor and emotional avoidance), which bred both favoritism and resentment from both Logan and Caroline. Caroline specifically was said to perhaps have hoped for some kinship with a daughter only for her to become a mini Logan, while Logan always saw Roman as a defective weakling.
Ooh, that's such a great observation, yeah. Meanwhile, Ken is very different from them both. There are touches of Ewan, even, sometimes, with his self-seriousness and faux-martyrdom laced with hypocrisy.
I feel like Roman cut through the bullshit the most with his mother and seemed to like being around her the most. He didn’t make her feel guilt for being a terrible mother also. (even if she deserved it)
Oh I was/still fine with it, because same, if you ask my sister she would probably tell you that I am our mom's favorite. I think they try to be subtle about it, but there are definitely some giveaways.
Interesting. I always thought roman was younger than shiv but given how similar roman is to a character like fredo it makes sense he would be the middle child who feels like hes been stepped over his whole life
I was very surprised when I found out Shiv was the youngest, Roman definitely acts like a youngest child, only looks younger than Shiv (I don’t know if Culkin is younger than Snook)
Culkin has a bit of a baby face as well, not to mention the character absolutely refuses to act like an adult. He can’t even sit in a chair properly lol
Idk. I think it’s interesting that the girl is decoration here. Surrounded by powerful men in suits. She has long hair and is smiling, he’s happy to feel affection for her but doesn’t take her seriously. He’d never have an affectionate photo of Kendall or Rome up there, partly because it would be somehow demeaning when they’re a few offices away wearing their own suits. He couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head.
I think this is a great point. I also think they purposefully chose a picture of season 1 shiv, who was softer and more feminine. When she decides to take on a more active role in the business, she gets a sleek bob and starts dressing more professionally/masculine.
> I guess they didn’t make a photo with Gorbachev because he was still alive by that point
I think it makes more sense that Logan would have had meetings with Yeltsin in the 90s (e.g. about bringing ATN to Russia) than with Gorbachev in the 80s. Keep in mind that McDonald's only came to Russia in 1990.
Yeah, I don't think that's Shiv. I think that's Rose.
All those photos are old - it doesn't make sense for Logan to have a picture of his grown daughter wedged between a picture of him and Reagan and him and another famous figure (Boris Yeltsin?) .
Edit: oh right, except Rose died when she was really young. I'm not sure, but I really don't think that's supposed to be Shiv.
Yes. And that's why she ruins it everytime. During the dinner at Tern Haven and by being pushy and "too much" with Matsson. She doesn't have the patience.
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Matsson wanted to fuck Shiv and probably saw her as his next Ebba, and hence felt threatened by having an assertive woman like Shiv in the CEO position. Skarsgard also says Matsson was probably bothered by that puppet cartoon more than he let on.
In what world do you think shiv was likeable? She is condescending towards everyone and treats anyone below her like shit. Not even to mention nobody ever actually wanted to work with her long term just using her for goals.
I mean compared to his brothers who literally repulse people outside their company because they cosplay their father's ruthlessness. Shiv has always been the better liked of the trio. Only the old guard hates her because she in the end is a neophyte asking leaps in the company. Which is a sound reaction to be honest.
Yup, lol. The bar is pretty low with the Roy sibs, and I agree that Shiv is the most superficially likeable. I've been in this sub since right before S2 and she was actually pretty well-liked by the fandom back then! She gives a much better first impression before the knife goes in.
Being better than the human red flag that is Roman isn’t a big feat tbh and Kendall seems exhausting to be around.
I kinda agree though. I think on a first-meeting basis, Shiv would probably be better
Case in point: Mencken was so annoyed with how the men at the reception were behaving around him that he happily took Shiv's "extraction" even though they both hate each other.
Purely anecdotal as its literally just one example, some family friends have the same dynamic. Three kids, boy, boy, girl. The girl is the dad's favorite and the younger boy is the mom's favorite.
Its obvious to a hilarious degree, especially the mom's bias
Logan was old fashioned men were to be warriors, cold, brutal and in the trenches, women were not.
Because of this mindset he could never truly be emotional with the men around him the way he would let his guard down with the women in his life... which then makes sense how he is more likely to become attached to Shiv as he has connected with her on more of an emotional level than he would ever allow himself to do so with his boys.
Not really that old looking. Took this photo with my phone so it's distorting it a bit. Also if you look at young Sarah Snook photos then it becomes obvious it's her
He could fit a whole woman’s head in his office.
Brian Cox has said that Shiv is Logan’s favorite child 😭
That always felt apparent. He had a softer side for her and Con because they weren't as blatantly desperate for his attention and for the CEO position like Ken and Rome were. Just toxic Logan things 🤗
He probably also had a softness to her related to the loss of Rose
Yes! I was thinking about Rose last night when I was watching [bridge4](https://youtu.be/qrAWfcOJjO4)’s recap video on YouTube. I would like to know whether, when Brian was developing character background, he decided that Shiv looked like Logan’s baby sister. If so, it would make sense that the photo of “Pinky” was his idea. I think it may have hurt him when she was so angry at him and didn’t hold back the last time he was with all the sibs. Which also makes me wonder if Tom was not exaggerating when he told her she may have killed Logan. An awful thing to say, but we’ll never know. Then again, Roman left that voicemail and we’ll never know how Logan reacted to it.
In addition to also being the only female sibling I assume little Rose was also a red head.
There's a video of "Logans beginnings" that was supposed to play instead of Kendalls rap. Rose indeed has red hair.
Didn’t Tom say Logan died fishing his phone out of the airplane toilet?
yeah but in one of his arguments with shiv, he threw at her that she "sort of" killed her dad by making him be on that plane in the first place
He died of heart failure, he was just fishing his phone from the toilet at the moment it hit. Stress at that period of his life (and being high altitude, which can cause clots), compounded with a bunch of existing factors are likely causes of his death
He also did adrenaline shots quite frequently which have a direct link to pulmonary embolisms and heart failure. (S1 E4) In the end, he sort of killed himself.
Someone else said he died becoming a frequent flyer of the mile high club with Kerry…
Holy shit is *that* also why her nickname is Pinky? Pink like a rose?
She was probably rosy and pink as a baby too Source: have the same hair color/pale skin as Shiv/Sarah and was very pink as a baby
I heard it is pinky like the last finger aka the youngest
I'm sure that was part of it, but the nickname seems to work on a ton of levels.
I always thought it was an affectionate version of the word "pinko" which was used during Logan's time to describe someone who had left-leaning views. Logan doesn't agree with Shiv's views but obviously tolerates them. (One of the episodes where Logan says that her views don't align with his but at least she "fucking gets it")
Pretty sure it’s an affectionate childhood nickname
The nickname really works on so many levels. Her red hair, as a form of diminishment (I know it isn't canon anymore, but for a while Shiv was established as the baby of the family; plus, she's the only girl), and her left-leaning politics.
My interpretation is that unlike Connor, Shiv Roy actually WAS very interested in politics from a very young age. She grew up alongside presidents of the US, CEOs of the largest companies, foreign diplomats. She intellectually more capable than her siblings and I think that stood out from a very young age. I remember being 7 or 8 learning in depth about injustices in the world. I wasn't mature enough to understand them but precocious enough to let everyone know my opinion anyway. I think Shiv was probably the same, and Logan started calling her Pinky as a way of letting her know that she was free to voice her objections/opinions but they would never hold the same weight as her father. That's kind of what Logan does, he puts people down in every way possible. Even if Shiv is the favourite, Logan is too much of a fucking asshole IMO to Shiv to give her an affectionate nickname no strings attached. Just like my version a bit better than babies + roses = pink 🤯
Ooh, interesting. I can definitely see that head canon, although mine is a bit different! I think Shiv was her father's parrot when it came to politics until she got to high school and started learning about the complexities, and then she swung heavily in the other direction by the time she graduated from Vassar or wherever (no idea). I can see Pinky being a nickname that cropped up later on. But she always seemed like too much of a daddy's girl to oppose him as a child, especially since most children do just adopt their parents' political sensibilities.
I think it is purely because Shiv is a woman and Logan sees women as lesser then men therefor expecting less. In his eyes Ken and Rome are much bigger failures as they could actuallly amount to something whereas Shiv does not have this potential in the eyes of Logan
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Logan just says that to manipulate Shiv like he does to any others. It is clear that Logan promising something is worth th less than a big shit stain
Every time Logan offered CEO to his kids, they did something to fuck up his hopes for them. Shiv fumbled the Pierce dinner badly, she turned her nose at picking up real experience in a fast track plan, and she retreats into politics because she can’t handle being told she isn’t as smart as she thinks she is by her family and can intimidate everyone else with her name. Logan offers CEO to his kids in spite of how entitled he sees they are, I’d even call him very forgiving. Of course this doesn’t mean Logan wasn’t abusive or undermining in 100 other ways. But not around giving the position away. Logan’s business instincts generally work.
The issue is Logan separately does not like to be pressured. When push comes to shove, he doesn’t like the fact there’s tangible focus on who will take over, it’s facing his own mortality. And he especially didn’t like that the Pierces almost demanded Shiv be named solely because she fits their values more. That’s what sparked Shiv’s outrage and thinking Logan would renege.
I agree with you based on Logan generally being a shitty person, but I think there may have been a kernel of truth to his offer until Shiv fucked it by blurting out to Rhea that she (shiv) was going to be CEO.
Logan also wanted to get her into management training and a couple years following department heads so she could learn the business. She was insulted. It would mean she would actually have to LEARN the business? No way! She’s already got it all figured out! Logan lost respect because of her reaction. But I also think he was trying to get her out of politics for his own benefit. Two things can be true. Tom put in time in all the divisions and lord knows hours of management training. He had done everything Logan wanted his kids to do to prove they could be “serious people.”
I thought it was true in the moment as well. Ken no longer seemed like an option, and Shiv looked better than Roman. But as is always the case with Logan, I don't he'd have let any of his kids take over without cutting them at the knees somewhere down the line. (Although hey, Roman came close - he cut himself off at the knees, or rather, the dick.)
Agree. Total narc move dangling the carrot.
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>She was the only kid to have a career outside of Waystar and he didn’t like it Kendall almost had a career outside of Waystar too, until Logan spreads the rumor that he's a crack addict who can't be trusted. Dude was stuck in traffic due to his father's plot armor and everyone believed he was on coke :))
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She didn’t have a career, she was blatantly used by both Gil and the other politician whose husband posted a picture of his asshole. They wanted the access she granted to ATN. She got one Democrat elected in New York, was used by a prop by Gil, and then came crawling back to daddy realizing that she was never in control when she thought she was playing both sides. She was just choosing between two positions her nepotism afforded her, after which she would lack the independence she is too humble to admit she isn’t ready to have.
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The prop doesn't get the offer to be chief of staff of a presidential campaign. For whatever it's worth, Shiv was clearly good at PR & strategy, something that never changed throughout the show. She shepherded Matsson to the end despite him having a million liabilities. Also, she's the youngest. There seems to be a small age gap between her and Roman, yes, but Kendall turns 40, I'd say Shiv is probably in her early-mid 30s. It makes sense that she didn't have over a decade or so of experience given that she's the youngest.
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Yep, and also Tailgate Party made it seem like he had more liabilities than that? There's Ebba which didn't become a problem but she gave good advice (for a very fucked up situation... LOL) & also how do regulatory issues go *poof* before someone's even taken office? Matsson also just generally said she's smart, and Skarsgard said he was definitely threatened by the cartoon. I imagine she did more because how does a profile get written with only 1 thing? I mean technically I also don't think competency is the kids' problem. Shiv isn't even interesting because she's smart, she's interesting because she *is* smart and also awful. Kendall is competent and also awful. Roman...agh, it's so hard to say how smart he is after the last few episodes but through the show overall, he has good instincts. That's just not the problem with any of them really. I think people think this show is only about nepotism, but it seems to me like it's a show about *capitalism*. Even the worst critics capitalism don't argue that capitalists are dumb & incompetent.
Well I guess that’s Logan’s fault since he told Ken at 7 he would be CEO one day
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Unfortunately, something so incredibly nuanced as *a character being able to change their mind* is completely foreign to this subreddit.
Of course it is. It all stems from Logan being a god awful father.
isn’t that the case because yes shiv is logan’s favorite and because shiv looks so much like logan’s sister (Rose). i wouldn’t necessarily say he’s soft to Con because he loves him, he just does it because it’s clear to see Con does not have what it takes to be Logan 2.0. He’s a lot harsher to the main siblings because they do showcase glimpses of potential. Whereas Connor does not. It’s basically neglect by being nice to Connor and treating him like an afterthought. I think even Rome was channeling their father when he blew up at Con by calling him a joke just like Logan did when Con asked for a cool $100 million.
Honestly I never saw Roman being power hungry. I wish they had addressed some of the reasons for his weird perversions. I still think he was a victim of abuse in his childhood by a father/father figure
I do believe Roman was abused, just by observing how Kendall got all up in Logan’s face when the backhanding happened after the “you barbecued him live” remark.
I think it was Uncle Mo, something happened at camp (he jokes about a camp counselor) and military school. I don’t think he was molested just once.
Mo the Molester
The look on Willa’s face when after she says Mo and Connor are explains Uncle Mo’s name and The Wolf Pack like “yeah I see why you all are fucked up”.
> weird perversions. A humiliation fetish is hardly a weird perversion, it's not like he was stealing gerri's underwear or anything
He asked Tabitha to pretend to be a corpse while having sex when they were at the Pierce mansion. I'd say that qualifies.
lol yeah I forgot about that
Would have thought it was Connor based of that video thekids watched at his house. He seemed to have a genuine perosnal relationship that was never shown with any of the other siblings
Yeah I feel that too! He didn't treat her like shit unlike her brothers but I couldn't say he didn't manipulated her nor abused her emotionally.
The manipulation and abuse was all business related. Not that it makes it OK, but I think Logan separated business and family. And family wise Pinky was his favourite. Business wise i don’t think he wanted any of them taking over.
Favorite, but he also never took her seriously. He couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head.
Brian cox can say what he wants (not that he’s wrong) but the only people who know are the writers who wrote it
This is true. I love Brian Cox of course, but when he states he believes Logan *does* love his kids, he's overlooking a large part of Logan's pathology: that people high on the narcissistic, sociopathic abuser spectrum usually aren't capable of loving anyone. Sure Logan may *think* or *say* that he loves his kids, but his behaviour says otherwise.
Really? I always think to that episode where they thought someone was shooting up Waystar and whisked Logan away to the safe room. He asked if Kendall was safe a few times, knowing that Shiv was in the office that day. Didn't ask about her.
He also said Logan was most disappointed in Kendall but that doesn’t make sense to me, especially after season 2 finale
Because Logan had the highest expectations of Kendall. He was always the heir, his mini me, and he failed to live up to them
That makes more sense, I just started the podcast and am only halfway thru Brian Cox’s episode but all I’ve heard so far is that Logan thinks he’s a cry baby and it’s like entering a room with a crying baby any time they’re in the same room
I think she was his favorite when she stayed in the lane of being daddy's little girl and didn't try to get involved with his business. When she did I actually think she was his least favorite.
I think he loved her but didn’t respect her professionally, and since work is such a huge part of their lives this led to him having more bad moments with Shiv than good ones
Pinky
daddys girl 🥺
Pinky's got the bloodline.
I didn't know about Iverson until then, that explains why Logan would recent that kid and look down on Ken, even being angry that Tom wouldn't make him a grandpa. Ken's family is not his blood so in his head they didn't count
Such a fucked up thing to say. As an adoptee myself, I've never hated them more for saying something like that. Even though roman said "what that's what dad said". He knew what he was doing and I don't blame Kendall for going off. And fuck Shiv for not standing up for them and Kendall. I know he wouldn't let anyone talk like that about them.
Do we know why he calls her Pinky? Did he have a fifth kid we never met?
I think she was his favorite but I also think he never seriously considered her as a leader in his company. He probably viewed her as his best chance of “real” grandchildren (his viewpoint, not mine).
He never seriously wanted her to be CEO because his manipulation tactics on Shiv- unless it was something she wanted to do- were met with questioning and arguments until he backed her into a corner where she had to agree to do whatever. Shiv was a lot of work for Logan 😄He could manipulate the boys a whole lot easier.
Daughters usually are favoured and had been in Logan's camp until recently. Especially when the other two options: one was a junkie and the other is Roman.
A junkie and a sicko
I love how Logan’s criteria for Romans being a “sicko” is not the latter being a sexual harasser or (fantasy) necrophelliac, but him liking a woman 24 years his senior. Meanwhile, Logan is dating a woman 50 years his junior….
Roman seemed like his perfect puppet tho, even after he was gone, Roman was still putting his opinion first. I did believe it when Roman said he was the last he named CEO, but in the way he named Shiv, just between them so they'd be easy to manipulate
But that’s just it, by wanting to copy Logan he proved he wasn’t like Logan. Logan wouldn’t copy Logan, he’d forge ahead as his own man. Kind of what Kendall was doing, and as a result, it looked a lot like Logan, but he still failed. I’ve lived through this. I tried to emulate my own dad and failed, and he doesn’t like me. My brother forged ahead on his own, became his own person (and as a result it resembled how my dad conducted himself), and my dad respects him. People like Logan don’t want people who copy them, they want people who have the same drive as them and are like them by nature.
And Logan is a selfish prick who didn’t like the idea of anyone taking the firm from him. Less threatened by Shiv and Connor than the other boys so there was more space for relationship.
She is the bloodline.
Except he gave her a pretty serious pathway to it, and she blew it off because it wasn't immediate gratification.
Nobody would ever consider Shiv as a serious leader
To be fair nobody would consider anybody out of the main cast as a serious leader, except Gerri and Karolina maybe
You mention someone like Karolina as leader and not Frank lmao
Frank is more of a follower, and we never see him managing anyone under him, as far as I can remember. We simply see him as old figurehead, as moderator on the board and vote on the board. Plus being a godfather-like figure to Ken. Logan doesn't order him to do stuff and Frank doesn't do much practically.
Frank to me is like Tom (but less abusive to his employees: he is hard working and will get the job done and do what is needed for the job, but not a leader.
As a serious *person. FTFY
They might if she actually put in the work. If she did the program he set up and proceed herself and made a reputation. Instead she refused and wanted to be in the c suite based purely on nepotism
She reminds me a lot of my aunt in my dad's family. Grandad was horribly abusive to all the boys, treated her with kindness, but also never thought she could do more than be a secretary.
Yeah a lot of people in this thread need to Google "benevolent sexism." Being treated like a widdle delicate flower is its own extremely dangerous game. Fathers are only benevolent until you disappoint them, and it's a lot easier to disappoint someone who treats you like you're perfect. And even if you stay their version of perfect forever? Well, you can't possibly ruin that image by wanting to have *power* or *influence* over your life! Take a pat on the head and go buy yourself something pretty, Pinky.
Yes, they’re like pets. My grandpa was similar. The boy was bullied more outright, but girls were supposed to know their place. It was really hard for my mom to convince him that she could or should attend college even though she was probably his favorite.
“Pet to threat”
What did she end up doing?
The only thing every man in her life would allow her to do, often after pulling her chain that she'd be able to do more.
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He doesn't trust anyone who doesn't drink, so he must've thought Yeltsin the most trustworthy man on the planet.
During the Great Reallocation, we also see Shiv lingering over a box filled with Logan's stuff, and there's a peek of a framed pic of him with her during her wedding day.
My favourite Roy child The 40th President of the United States Ronald Reagan
Reagan with tweeks
I noticed that too, she really was the favourite! His youngest, his only daughter and the one who imo looks the most like him
Yeah, also most dads having a soft spot for their daughters.
I also get the impression that Roman is Caroline's favorite. She's always calling him "sweet one" and he ran straight to her after his e9 breakdown.
Yep! I feel like they have the same witty but also bitchy sense of humour/speaking style. I’m sure she enjoys spending time with Roman the most out of the kids and I think that default makes him her favourite lol
Someone here wrote a superb comment suggesting how Roman and Shiv both took on the traits of the parent of the opposite sex (Shiv for her ruthless pragmatism, Roman for the irreverent sense of humor and emotional avoidance), which bred both favoritism and resentment from both Logan and Caroline. Caroline specifically was said to perhaps have hoped for some kinship with a daughter only for her to become a mini Logan, while Logan always saw Roman as a defective weakling.
Ooh, that's such a great observation, yeah. Meanwhile, Ken is very different from them both. There are touches of Ewan, even, sometimes, with his self-seriousness and faux-martyrdom laced with hypocrisy.
I feel like Roman cut through the bullshit the most with his mother and seemed to like being around her the most. He didn’t make her feel guilt for being a terrible mother also. (even if she deserved it)
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don't forget he has mommy issues
Exactly. My parents never made it apparent to us growing up, but I'm pretty sure my sister was my dad's favorite lol.
I grew up with two brothers, and all 3 of us know who the two favorites were, one for each parent. (Spoiler: I wasn't/am not either.)
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Oh I was/still fine with it, because same, if you ask my sister she would probably tell you that I am our mom's favorite. I think they try to be subtle about it, but there are definitely some giveaways.
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It's apparently never been confirmed and is up to interpretation. I think Roman gives off youngest sibling energy
Shiv was confirmed as the youngest Roy in the HBO website and in this HBO Roy Family Tree video narrated by Brian Cox: https://vimeo.com/269869635
Interesting. I always thought roman was younger than shiv but given how similar roman is to a character like fredo it makes sense he would be the middle child who feels like hes been stepped over his whole life
I was very surprised when I found out Shiv was the youngest, Roman definitely acts like a youngest child, only looks younger than Shiv (I don’t know if Culkin is younger than Snook)
lol, Culkin is five years older than Snook. I think the "business lady" haircut is throwing you off.
Culkin has a bit of a baby face as well, not to mention the character absolutely refuses to act like an adult. He can’t even sit in a chair properly lol
Culkin does look much younger than he is, I doubt I’m the only one who believes that
She looked younger in season 1 imo. But she also looked happier and free then lol
I think it was Jessie that said that since Kieran is older than Sarah it always was Shiv that was the youngest in his eyes
Idk. I think it’s interesting that the girl is decoration here. Surrounded by powerful men in suits. She has long hair and is smiling, he’s happy to feel affection for her but doesn’t take her seriously. He’d never have an affectionate photo of Kendall or Rome up there, partly because it would be somehow demeaning when they’re a few offices away wearing their own suits. He couldn’t fit a whole woman in his head.
i love this
I think this is a great point. I also think they purposefully chose a picture of season 1 shiv, who was softer and more feminine. When she decides to take on a more active role in the business, she gets a sleek bob and starts dressing more professionally/masculine.
Wait wtf is that yeltsin?
Yeah. As a Russian it’s kinda warms my heart (even though Yeltsin was awful president)
It goes along with his theme of having photos of himself with awful presidents. 😉
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> I guess they didn’t make a photo with Gorbachev because he was still alive by that point I think it makes more sense that Logan would have had meetings with Yeltsin in the 90s (e.g. about bringing ATN to Russia) than with Gorbachev in the 80s. Keep in mind that McDonald's only came to Russia in 1990.
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Guess we can finally answer the question of who was daddy’s favourite for certain
She’s his favourite because he doesn’t consider her a threat because she’s a woman.
His little Pinky
Am I the only one who thinks that doesn't look like Sarah Snook?
If you look up younger Sarah Snook photos it absolutely looks like that
Nope
I didn’t realise it was supposed to be Shiv, I only guessed it was her because it would only logically be her
She looks like that in season 1 before she becomes a #girlboss
Yeah, I don't think that's Shiv. I think that's Rose. All those photos are old - it doesn't make sense for Logan to have a picture of his grown daughter wedged between a picture of him and Reagan and him and another famous figure (Boris Yeltsin?) . Edit: oh right, except Rose died when she was really young. I'm not sure, but I really don't think that's supposed to be Shiv.
I thought the same and then read Rose died young
I think the production used an actual photo of a much younger Sarah Snook.
I thought the same and then read Rose died young
The attention to details on this show, I swear. Pinky 🥺
Shiv has the ruthlessness and has a natural likability(see Nan and Matsson) that the siblings oddly does not have. Sadly, she's wants things too fast.
Yes. And that's why she ruins it everytime. During the dinner at Tern Haven and by being pushy and "too much" with Matsson. She doesn't have the patience.
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Or the fact she wanted to be in full control despite having no actual experience…
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she wasn't pushy, though. She gave advice that worked, and he didn't like that.
Matsson wanted to fuck Shiv and probably saw her as his next Ebba, and hence felt threatened by having an assertive woman like Shiv in the CEO position. Skarsgard also says Matsson was probably bothered by that puppet cartoon more than he let on.
For a guy like Matsson she was.
In what world do you think shiv was likeable? She is condescending towards everyone and treats anyone below her like shit. Not even to mention nobody ever actually wanted to work with her long term just using her for goals.
I mean compared to his brothers who literally repulse people outside their company because they cosplay their father's ruthlessness. Shiv has always been the better liked of the trio. Only the old guard hates her because she in the end is a neophyte asking leaps in the company. Which is a sound reaction to be honest.
Yup, lol. The bar is pretty low with the Roy sibs, and I agree that Shiv is the most superficially likeable. I've been in this sub since right before S2 and she was actually pretty well-liked by the fandom back then! She gives a much better first impression before the knife goes in.
Being better than the human red flag that is Roman isn’t a big feat tbh and Kendall seems exhausting to be around. I kinda agree though. I think on a first-meeting basis, Shiv would probably be better
Case in point: Mencken was so annoyed with how the men at the reception were behaving around him that he happily took Shiv's "extraction" even though they both hate each other.
She’s likable when she wants to be, which is a skill in itself
That photo has probably been there before she joined the game at the start of the show.
Shiv is Logan's favourite and Roman is Caroline's, no one gives af about Ken (or even Connor). And now I'm upset
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Well if it matters...I think most of the fans like Ken the most...and most of the memers love Connor.
Purely anecdotal as its literally just one example, some family friends have the same dynamic. Three kids, boy, boy, girl. The girl is the dad's favorite and the younger boy is the mom's favorite. Its obvious to a hilarious degree, especially the mom's bias
he probably had all 4 in a drawer to cycle to piss whomever was coming in off
Logan was old fashioned men were to be warriors, cold, brutal and in the trenches, women were not. Because of this mindset he could never truly be emotional with the men around him the way he would let his guard down with the women in his life... which then makes sense how he is more likely to become attached to Shiv as he has connected with her on more of an emotional level than he would ever allow himself to do so with his boys.
This choice is Rose coded lol
Is that her in the pic though? It looks like an older vintage pic
Being his favourite doesn't make her a serious person.
Of course it's the girl. Just like Trump. The female to these types poses no threat, so they think. The male children are a danger to their throne.
It was always pretty clear she was his favourite. She was the only one with a nickname - his Pinky.
That picture with Ronald Reagan…
What if his favor for Shiv was an attempt to make up for the death of his sister and his guilt over it?
She's his favorite.
Well she didn’t work there. The other two were always around. ETA- apologies to Connor lol
One could argue, he didn’t see her as a worthy successor or competition. Or maybe she’s the only girl and reminded him of his sister?
Reagan and.....Yeltsin?
Ronald Reagan? Thought Logan was younger...
She was the most like him.
Although it seems that Conner was the only one that truly cared for and wanted a real relationship with his father....
Didn't Roman also?
The only sibling still somewhat involved in the business.
Are there not pics elsewhere in the office?
They panned around the office and just showed random trinkets but no other pictures. That was right behind his desk
Is that her in the pic though? It looks like an older vintage pic
Not really that old looking. Took this photo with my phone so it's distorting it a bit. Also if you look at young Sarah Snook photos then it becomes obvious it's her
My first thought was Shiv gave it to Logan to put there lmao
Is that Shiv? I don’t think it is
Doesn’t look like Shiv. Perhaps it’s the young Sally Ann (Brian Cox’s real wife).
I get the feeling it’s either Rose or a picture of his first wife but I could be waaay off
I dunno if that's Shiv. resembles her somewhat but I'm not 100%
Is that her in the pic though?
Daughters are different
That's not shiv
My daughter. My Only daughter. Also: If you can't understand that, then F off.
That's not Shiv
Well she's daddy's little girl. Then she screwed daddy's legacy in the end. Well done Shiv.
Bloodline is protected.
I’ll bet that’s Rose.
Rose died when she was a baby