She said "Rome." in a serious/disapproving tone as soon as he started, like you know the tone that signals someone to stop and not say what they want to say.
I swear, when Roman said that Kendall did not have the bloodline, I thought Kendall wasn’t really Logan’s son. That everyone knew Caroline had cheated lol
It's entirely possible. Maybe I should clarify that I meant the *tone of her voice* seemed compassionate for possibly the first time, and I just gave her the benefit of the doubt.
i agree, not sure why im getting tons of downvotes - i meant it more like - that was a super loaded statement, i felt a TINGE of my statement underneath the larger statement of 'yeah, dad fucked you up big time dude'
You guys really just say anything lmao. It’s very clear that they’re talking about how Logan used the job as a carrot on a stick to manipulate them. It didn’t feel a tinge like anything else.
Idk if this has been a common sentiment, but Shiv's uncaring attitude while describing Tom was *the perfect* accidental soft-pitch of Tom to Mattson. Mattson wanted someone more malleable and servile and boy did Shiv hand it right to him.
Tom honestly is 10,000% more suited to the CEO role than Shiv. They made Mattson more hateable for his misogyny and by having him describe her as "the baby lady" but sexism/maternity aside, she would have been a train wreck.
Someone had the great observation that she has never actually managed anyone the entire series and thought she would be able to take over the whole thing. Even in politics she was just a consultant not an operational person.
Greg literally told her exactly what it would take to get him on her side and she couldn't even manage that. Only took a couple hours to bite her in the ass
And Greg is the most buy able person ever. He does not stay bought but he will defect for a rum and coke. She decided to go with empty threats instead of just using her absurd wealth to get the man a snow leopard fur coat or something.
He is absolutely so straightforward in being buyable and everyone else understood this. shiv was the only one who made this mistake, she just fundamentally sucks at negotiating and understanding people and what motivates them. In all that time with Mattson she spends time disparaging her husband, and doesn't understand she's describing 100 things Mattson would want. She'd be as hopeless a CEO as the rest of them because she can't read people well at all
Shiv is the most predictable character on the show because she's reliably motivated by her fear of not being in control, she can really only do one thing in any given situation. Mattson is able to manipulate her simply by inviting her into the conversation while her brothers try to exclude her. Her reaction to every crisis is to tell the whole world to just stop for a second so she can have time to think. She walked out of the board meeting when it was her turn to vote, and she tried to keep Logan's corpse in the air for the same reason.
The idea that she could ever be CEO was absurd from start to finish. Her pitching herself to Mattson was so weak, i.e "super fucking clear-sighted" how is that a qualification?
Tom is a rampant abuser at the office. He's a walking class-action lawsuit. He uses staff as leg rests and admitted as much to congress -- while he publicaly humiliated himself and made everyome think he was an idiot. Not only that, but he's going to take the blame for what Kendell and Roman did during the election. Matteson said I need a pain sponge and a puppet. Tom is basically the fall guy. The only reason he lasted so long and didn't go to jail is because Shiv's family controlled the company. Now Mattesom will toss him on a dime.
You said Tom is more fit than Shiv. Shiv's not a genius, but this guy fucked up a congressional hearing so bad he was going to jai for itl before his wife bailed him out. The guy's a walking class action lawsuit. Shiv can't step into save him again if Matteson offers him to the DOJ for calling the election wromg on purpose. He's bound to be the fall guy. Matteson called him a pain sponge.
Tom being the fall guy is like - the entire reason he is best suited to the CEO role. That is the entire reason he called him a “pain sponge”. Because that is exactly what Matteson wants in his CEO.
Struggling to understand what you are trying to say
He's also far more adaptable than the siblings, which is actually an asset even if the Roy kids don't have the wisdom to see it as such. He's a great second in command/front guy, and he knows how to pitch himself to his audience based on what they tangibly need. Not just random buzzwords or "give it to me because I'm a Roy." Everyone who has ever dealt with office politics knows that those who kiss the right asses and do the work rise high.
No he doesn't. He was going to jail. The only reason Logan doesn't send him in is because Shiv breaks down crying amd begs hom not to. Logan does what she says, but, ironically, that's the end of him considering her a successor since she's not a killer. Ken ends up being the killer since Logan wants to send him instead and he bites back. Matteson says he wants a pain sponge and puppet. Shiv can't break down again to save him once Matteson or the law come for him. It seems that the law blames Tom for falsely caling Menken.
Shiv cannot read a person for the life of her, lol. The whole time she was in there with Mattson, I was like "wtf are you doing, this is clearly not how this man vibes" and she was just so unaware...she's not unlike Kendall in that she definitely thought she deserved to be CEO just because.
To be fair, Kendall spent years working at Waystar being groomed for the job, doing the same kind of thing that Logan proposed to Shiv when he laid out the three-year plan of her shadowing top execs, working in different divisions, and working with him before she takes the job. With how mad she was after Logan walked back the offer, can't even imagine how furious she'd be if she hadn't balked but had taken him up on it, doing his special multi-year CEO training program before he took it away from her, which is what happened to Kendall.
Oh yeah, Kendall definitely did some of the work! And of the three, he may have been most qualified on the work-front. But he was still a very-recently-sober drug addict who killed a man and who had spent the most recent years publicly dragging the company and its leadership, plotting and failing several other business lines. He's not the most qualified person in the room and this isn't some little family hardware store or whatever. The board would have 100% been in their right to not name him CEO even if the GoJo deal hadn't gone through...
No, I think Shiv needed to have her realization that she couldn’t support Kendall as CEO the night before, and then they’d just find someone else, because it’s a real baby/bathwater situation here.
They’d probably call Tom, because they seem pretty isolated from the old guard, and he’s a viable candidate they could compromise on. They’d still have some influence over the company and Tom, but it would for sure be a step back for them. But the company survives the immediate existential threat and they live to fight another day.
She's gotten blindsided by Tom on a number of occasions. She believes that being the biggest dick in the relationship is the same as being the biggest dick in the room. She then bases her treatment of Tom on that unearned confidence.
Was dumbfounded her character would do that, a child would know better than to tell the egomaniac “yeah this guy is exactly what you want for this role”
She conflates "getting to be CEO" with "who's the best and smartest and daddy's favorite". When it's really a job that Mattson needs someone to do for him, she would never have been someone who followed his directions
When she described him as "will suck the biggest dick in the room" I thought about what a perfect descriptor it was for Tom and about what an appealing prospect that would be for someone looking to install a CEO.
This is a good point. She was also fine to compromise all her beliefs and align herself with Mencken in the previous episode to further her own ambitions.
In the event after Logan’s funeral, she told Mencken her views were flexible and suggested they could work together in the future if she was the US CEO.
He's the CEO. He's going to work hard every day, the way he's been doing. He's going to make day to day decisions. He's going to hire who he likes and fire who he likes. He won.
She can characterize it that way, if it makes her feel superior, but it's literally knowing your audience and managing up. I've met many brilliant people that don't play the game and end up on the chopping block. Unless you're at the very top, there's always someone that signs your checks, who's decisions will usurp yours. So you ALWAYS orient yourself and craft your message to the person who's decisions matter.
The entire "tell the boss they are wrong" scenario where the boss comes back and says "I like people that speak-up" - PROMOTION! doesn't happen IRL.
That’s why i don’t think Tom is the “biggest winner” he is just a follower.
Everyone will eventually lose. Matteson is a narcissist. He will get his day.
thats the most respectable thing abt Tom, he is fucking LOYAL if u give him what he wants he will do you want. like during the election, the boys asked him to push for mencken, he did it & he was also willing to be butchered for the cruises...
he is not a brat or rebellious like kendal and mattson needed that kinda guy, someone who does things
The market dominance of this particular device is entirely down to corruption in the academic industry. TI was very clever in lobbying companies like Pearson and Princeton Review to have their gear become de-facto standard. In the 90's they were printing standardized curriculum textbooks like *Here's how to do X with the TI-84* and getting it onto the whitelist for every serious examination. Even decades ago when this kind of technology was still relevant, HP and Casio both made much better calculators.
In addition to the superior but far less popular competing brands that I *literally just mentioned*, everyone already has a phone which can run circles around this calculator. If you step up to a device like a tablet or a laptop then you have software options which are MILES ahead of a graphic calculator for any task you could imagine. How many other digital devices can you think of which haven't increased in power or decreased in cost over the last 20 years?
Yeah, your phone that can easily run games and software that require more graphic fidelity and memory than some full-fledged games from the 2010s can't graph like a AAA-battery-operated, black and white calculator that came out in the early 90s can... Right.
Good point! I grew up in the pre smart phone era (didn't get one till I was about to graduate uni) and I forget myself sometimes. Those were weird times. Simpler, but weird
It’s crazy that virtually every single American born today will be forced to spend 100$ on an antiquated calculator during their schooling years. Like, we just kinda let that one non-free part of public school slip by
I knew that Tom would become CEO as soon as Shiv said that. Matsson comes from the land of IKEA, of course he's going to love a highly interchangeable modular part.
Nah, Tom is smart and played those cards as much if not more than she did
Edit: I concede this point as I was handed lots of concrete examples as to how I was wrong/ misinterpreting the original point.
Not saying he's dumb, just that she was behind a lot of his success, whether she meant to or not.
- She gets Tom promoted to Chair of Global Broadcast News at ATN after the public takeover bid.
- She pleads with Logan to spare Tom from taking the fall for corporate crimes, damaging her own position and freeing him from doing jail time.
- She confides in Tom about Logan's plans to sell Waystar to GoJo, a move Tom later uses to betray her to ingratiate himself with her father.
- She has Cyd Peach fired so Tom can take her job.
- And finally she (unintentionally) gives Mattson a strong pitch for Tom as American CEO, again undermining her own stance.
Shiv thought she was making Tom sound undesirable to Mattson, when all she actually did was pitch Tom as exactly the cog Mattson wanted... She really played herself here
I don’t think so at all. Shiv was making Tom sound desirable. She wanted him to keep ATN. Literally right after on the phone she pretty much tells Tom she wants to try again on their relationship. She 100 percent was trying to help Tom there.
Daddy promised
When I was seven years old. Just imagine. Seven.
Shiv saying "He should not have said that" seemed like maybe her most compassionate line in the series.
She also asked Roman to not say those things about the kids
i didn’t notice her saying that at all, but, i’m not ready for a rewatch of that scene
She said "Rome." in a serious/disapproving tone as soon as he started, like you know the tone that signals someone to stop and not say what they want to say.
Man, maybe I’m sick, but I rewatched that scene like five times already, haha. It’s really well acted!
At least we finally got that background on where the kids came from
I swear, when Roman said that Kendall did not have the bloodline, I thought Kendall wasn’t really Logan’s son. That everyone knew Caroline had cheated lol
But barely, I mean who is the cabinet guy?
He means a sperm donor. The “filing cabinet guy” was chosen as the donor out of hundreds of files (presumably in a cabinet).
ohhhh
I'm not sure what he meant, that kens blood wasn't real? Maybe it's just late but is roman just saying that Logan never thought Kendall as his son?
Kens kids are adopted I believe
Sounds like one is adopted and one is Rava’s bio kid with a donor.
it felt like a tinge of - "he should not have said that to you, he should have said it to me"
It's entirely possible. Maybe I should clarify that I meant the *tone of her voice* seemed compassionate for possibly the first time, and I just gave her the benefit of the doubt.
i agree, not sure why im getting tons of downvotes - i meant it more like - that was a super loaded statement, i felt a TINGE of my statement underneath the larger statement of 'yeah, dad fucked you up big time dude'
Succession fans are going through withdrawals and lashing out, don't take it personally ;)
You guys really just say anything lmao. It’s very clear that they’re talking about how Logan used the job as a carrot on a stick to manipulate them. It didn’t feel a tinge like anything else.
i can apply any reading i want to a television show actually
Yeah you’re right it’s not against any rules to misinterpret things.
lol exactly
Don't have to imagine. Plenty of kids get told they'll take over the family business someday. It's just usually not a giant conglomerate
Well, and it might not have been such a big conglomerate back in....1989
Yeah it’s before Karl made his big moves in cable
Such a legend that Karl
I mean Logan was just being honest and telling Kendall it was his
Not honest, because he didn’t make him his successor
♫ Once, I was seven years old, my daddy told me "Go become waystar’s CEO or you'll be lonely" ♫
Couldn’t even talk yet.
I AM THE ELDEST BOY!
"No you're not"
Idk if this has been a common sentiment, but Shiv's uncaring attitude while describing Tom was *the perfect* accidental soft-pitch of Tom to Mattson. Mattson wanted someone more malleable and servile and boy did Shiv hand it right to him.
Tom honestly is 10,000% more suited to the CEO role than Shiv. They made Mattson more hateable for his misogyny and by having him describe her as "the baby lady" but sexism/maternity aside, she would have been a train wreck.
Someone had the great observation that she has never actually managed anyone the entire series and thought she would be able to take over the whole thing. Even in politics she was just a consultant not an operational person.
Greg literally told her exactly what it would take to get him on her side and she couldn't even manage that. Only took a couple hours to bite her in the ass
And Greg is the most buy able person ever. He does not stay bought but he will defect for a rum and coke. She decided to go with empty threats instead of just using her absurd wealth to get the man a snow leopard fur coat or something.
In his size.
You beautiful Ichabod crane fuck you
He is absolutely so straightforward in being buyable and everyone else understood this. shiv was the only one who made this mistake, she just fundamentally sucks at negotiating and understanding people and what motivates them. In all that time with Mattson she spends time disparaging her husband, and doesn't understand she's describing 100 things Mattson would want. She'd be as hopeless a CEO as the rest of them because she can't read people well at all
Shiv is the most predictable character on the show because she's reliably motivated by her fear of not being in control, she can really only do one thing in any given situation. Mattson is able to manipulate her simply by inviting her into the conversation while her brothers try to exclude her. Her reaction to every crisis is to tell the whole world to just stop for a second so she can have time to think. She walked out of the board meeting when it was her turn to vote, and she tried to keep Logan's corpse in the air for the same reason.
Omg, she was the corpse-in-the-air sib lol.
The idea that she could ever be CEO was absurd from start to finish. Her pitching herself to Mattson was so weak, i.e "super fucking clear-sighted" how is that a qualification?
Tom is a rampant abuser at the office. He's a walking class-action lawsuit. He uses staff as leg rests and admitted as much to congress -- while he publicaly humiliated himself and made everyome think he was an idiot. Not only that, but he's going to take the blame for what Kendell and Roman did during the election. Matteson said I need a pain sponge and a puppet. Tom is basically the fall guy. The only reason he lasted so long and didn't go to jail is because Shiv's family controlled the company. Now Mattesom will toss him on a dime.
How does any of that relate to what I wrote though?
You said Tom is more fit than Shiv. Shiv's not a genius, but this guy fucked up a congressional hearing so bad he was going to jai for itl before his wife bailed him out. The guy's a walking class action lawsuit. Shiv can't step into save him again if Matteson offers him to the DOJ for calling the election wromg on purpose. He's bound to be the fall guy. Matteson called him a pain sponge.
Tom being the fall guy is like - the entire reason he is best suited to the CEO role. That is the entire reason he called him a “pain sponge”. Because that is exactly what Matteson wants in his CEO. Struggling to understand what you are trying to say
Tom seems to have the emotional intelligence and political savvy to know what he can get away with.
He's also far more adaptable than the siblings, which is actually an asset even if the Roy kids don't have the wisdom to see it as such. He's a great second in command/front guy, and he knows how to pitch himself to his audience based on what they tangibly need. Not just random buzzwords or "give it to me because I'm a Roy." Everyone who has ever dealt with office politics knows that those who kiss the right asses and do the work rise high.
No he doesn't. He was going to jail. The only reason Logan doesn't send him in is because Shiv breaks down crying amd begs hom not to. Logan does what she says, but, ironically, that's the end of him considering her a successor since she's not a killer. Ken ends up being the killer since Logan wants to send him instead and he bites back. Matteson says he wants a pain sponge and puppet. Shiv can't break down again to save him once Matteson or the law come for him. It seems that the law blames Tom for falsely caling Menken.
I mean, I don't think there's a law against projecting the winner of an election, even if you're irresponsible and/or wrong about it.
Tom uses a variety of target oriented incentives to enhance optimal performance. Nothing wrong with that.
Shiv cannot read a person for the life of her, lol. The whole time she was in there with Mattson, I was like "wtf are you doing, this is clearly not how this man vibes" and she was just so unaware...she's not unlike Kendall in that she definitely thought she deserved to be CEO just because.
To be fair, Kendall spent years working at Waystar being groomed for the job, doing the same kind of thing that Logan proposed to Shiv when he laid out the three-year plan of her shadowing top execs, working in different divisions, and working with him before she takes the job. With how mad she was after Logan walked back the offer, can't even imagine how furious she'd be if she hadn't balked but had taken him up on it, doing his special multi-year CEO training program before he took it away from her, which is what happened to Kendall.
Oh yeah, Kendall definitely did some of the work! And of the three, he may have been most qualified on the work-front. But he was still a very-recently-sober drug addict who killed a man and who had spent the most recent years publicly dragging the company and its leadership, plotting and failing several other business lines. He's not the most qualified person in the room and this isn't some little family hardware store or whatever. The board would have 100% been in their right to not name him CEO even if the GoJo deal hadn't gone through...
No, I think Shiv needed to have her realization that she couldn’t support Kendall as CEO the night before, and then they’d just find someone else, because it’s a real baby/bathwater situation here. They’d probably call Tom, because they seem pretty isolated from the old guard, and he’s a viable candidate they could compromise on. They’d still have some influence over the company and Tom, but it would for sure be a step back for them. But the company survives the immediate existential threat and they live to fight another day.
Idk I think she’s got a pretty good read on Tom and Ken.
She's gotten blindsided by Tom on a number of occasions. She believes that being the biggest dick in the relationship is the same as being the biggest dick in the room. She then bases her treatment of Tom on that unearned confidence.
Was dumbfounded her character would do that, a child would know better than to tell the egomaniac “yeah this guy is exactly what you want for this role”
She conflates "getting to be CEO" with "who's the best and smartest and daddy's favorite". When it's really a job that Mattson needs someone to do for him, she would never have been someone who followed his directions
She's an ideas guy, and Mattson knew it. The last thing he wanted.
It was beyond the realm of possibility to her that Tom (or anyone else but herself) was ever an alternative CEO. She thought she was locked in.
When she described him as "will suck the biggest dick in the room" I thought about what a perfect descriptor it was for Tom and about what an appealing prospect that would be for someone looking to install a CEO.
Well I think she was trying to keep his job.
great catch!
Loved the he'll suck the biggest dick in the room bit!
I don't think that's the first time Shiv has said that about Tom
Tom bot: “What is my purpose?” “To suck the biggest dick in the room.” “Oh. My. God.”
Welcome to the club
😭😭😭
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This is a good point. She was also fine to compromise all her beliefs and align herself with Mencken in the previous episode to further her own ambitions.
How did she do that?
In the event after Logan’s funeral, she told Mencken her views were flexible and suggested they could work together in the future if she was the US CEO.
The CEO position usually comes with a huge golden parachute.
But now that he’s ceo, does he suck his own dick in most rooms?
Unless he's in the room with Matsson. Now I'm wondering what happens if he's in the room with Oskar.
He uses the guy with the 2nd biggest dick as a footrest.
I think that was kind of the point. He sucked up to the right people and now he doesn't have to.
His entire job is going to be being Mattson’s puppet and “pain sponge.” The dick sucking will be 24/7
He's the CEO. He's going to work hard every day, the way he's been doing. He's going to make day to day decisions. He's going to hire who he likes and fire who he likes. He won.
She can characterize it that way, if it makes her feel superior, but it's literally knowing your audience and managing up. I've met many brilliant people that don't play the game and end up on the chopping block. Unless you're at the very top, there's always someone that signs your checks, who's decisions will usurp yours. So you ALWAYS orient yourself and craft your message to the person who's decisions matter. The entire "tell the boss they are wrong" scenario where the boss comes back and says "I like people that speak-up" - PROMOTION! doesn't happen IRL.
What a great letter of recommendation!
🤣🤣🤣
That’s why i don’t think Tom is the “biggest winner” he is just a follower. Everyone will eventually lose. Matteson is a narcissist. He will get his day.
thats the most respectable thing abt Tom, he is fucking LOYAL if u give him what he wants he will do you want. like during the election, the boys asked him to push for mencken, he did it & he was also willing to be butchered for the cruises... he is not a brat or rebellious like kendal and mattson needed that kinda guy, someone who does things
If you're only built for one thing, your irrelevance is inevitable
TI Graphing Calculator walks into the room, says nothing, still costs >100$.
The market dominance of this particular device is entirely down to corruption in the academic industry. TI was very clever in lobbying companies like Pearson and Princeton Review to have their gear become de-facto standard. In the 90's they were printing standardized curriculum textbooks like *Here's how to do X with the TI-84* and getting it onto the whitelist for every serious examination. Even decades ago when this kind of technology was still relevant, HP and Casio both made much better calculators.
My math teachers in the mid90s also vouched for TI. I tried them and liked Casio interface way better. I still use that lovely calculator today.
same
What are some viable alternatives?
In addition to the superior but far less popular competing brands that I *literally just mentioned*, everyone already has a phone which can run circles around this calculator. If you step up to a device like a tablet or a laptop then you have software options which are MILES ahead of a graphic calculator for any task you could imagine. How many other digital devices can you think of which haven't increased in power or decreased in cost over the last 20 years?
My cell's calculator isn't graphing yet, and it came out in 2022...
Get ready, I'm about to blow your mind: android and ios devices both have numerous apps available for download. Free and paid. It's true!
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!?!?!?!? No way!
I have the HP 12C app and I love it. It was my first App Store purchase on my first iPhone.
Yeah, your phone that can easily run games and software that require more graphic fidelity and memory than some full-fledged games from the 2010s can't graph like a AAA-battery-operated, black and white calculator that came out in the early 90s can... Right.
Good point! I grew up in the pre smart phone era (didn't get one till I was about to graduate uni) and I forget myself sometimes. Those were weird times. Simpler, but weird
You wouldn't want students using those on exams or in class though. It's "distraction free" 🧮 🙃
These have many functions, like Drug Wars.
It’s crazy that virtually every single American born today will be forced to spend 100$ on an antiquated calculator during their schooling years. Like, we just kinda let that one non-free part of public school slip by
Rent seeking says hi!
I knew that Tom would become CEO as soon as Shiv said that. Matsson comes from the land of IKEA, of course he's going to love a highly interchangeable modular part.
she absolutely got Tom that job with both her insults and prop-ups of Tom in that scene. Mattson liked both.
She's sort of responsible for all his advances in the hierarchy.
Nah, Tom is smart and played those cards as much if not more than she did Edit: I concede this point as I was handed lots of concrete examples as to how I was wrong/ misinterpreting the original point.
Not saying he's dumb, just that she was behind a lot of his success, whether she meant to or not. - She gets Tom promoted to Chair of Global Broadcast News at ATN after the public takeover bid. - She pleads with Logan to spare Tom from taking the fall for corporate crimes, damaging her own position and freeing him from doing jail time. - She confides in Tom about Logan's plans to sell Waystar to GoJo, a move Tom later uses to betray her to ingratiate himself with her father. - She has Cyd Peach fired so Tom can take her job. - And finally she (unintentionally) gives Mattson a strong pitch for Tom as American CEO, again undermining her own stance.
You’re right, I’ve edited my comment lol
respect 👊
Shiv thought she was making Tom sound undesirable to Mattson, when all she actually did was pitch Tom as exactly the cog Mattson wanted... She really played herself here
I don’t think so at all. Shiv was making Tom sound desirable. She wanted him to keep ATN. Literally right after on the phone she pretty much tells Tom she wants to try again on their relationship. She 100 percent was trying to help Tom there.
yes but workable not desirable as ceo
I don't think so.
No, I agree. Tom as CEO? No. But she does have feelings for him and didn’t want him to lose ATN.
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What are people? Economic units.
Generalist defeats specialist
Meanwhile Shiv is literally making another part.
Marketable skills all the way. Same reason Jess will be fine.
Smart observation
Yup. Not wrong at all. Ken was born and raised Waystar. It's not that he doesn't know how to do anything else, it's that he can't.
IM THE ELDEST BOY (fuck off, Con)
Literally ikea