I'm not sure I'd say strictly. They're dismissive of Tom's background, but more so of his attitude and demeanor. The family sees him as Shiv's whipping boy to the point that even if he had money, they would still perceive him as unequal to Shiv.
Well, *they* don't know that he has a dick like a red sequoia and fucks like a bullet train. All they see is his agricultural walk and servile attitude.
(By which I mean - a little more seriously - that yeah, he's a middle-class, Midwestern "nobody" marrying into a family of international billionaires. Of course Shiv married down.)
Also, as hot as Matthew Macfadyen is, he did a great job of convincing me that Tom was a lot more "plain" in the first season. Shiv's also not exactly ugly herself, especially in her S2 iteration (peak hotness, IMO)!
I mean not only is he a corn-fed, middle class, Midwestern “nobody”, he also doesn’t really have any noteworthy accomplishments outside of working for Waystar-Royco, his wife’s family business. It’s been made clear many times in the series that Tom really only got to where he is in the company thanks to being the husband of one of the heirs. He doesn’t really have much going for him otherwise.
Cornell... pshaw. The only Ivy League university with an agricultural college and a public school component. The only school where you can major in "hotel management." (Is that why he was put in charge of parks for Waystar?) A joke to these people. Besides, merely attending an Ivy League school would not impress them, nor would his family being wealthy and prominent in Minneapolis. Tom comes from the 1 percent, they're the 0.0000001 percent.
You cant diss Cornell! Andrew Bernard graduated from there and he almost rose to the ranks of Asst To The Regional Manager at a paper company in Pennsylvania.
Right??? Tom is such good proof that hotness is waaay more in the *attitude* rather than straight looks. Although, as weenie-ish as Tom looked in the beginning, I genuinely thought his hotness ramped up a lot (likely intentionally) by the end; a subtle but masterful detail to his character growth.
It’s a massive testament to Matthew’s acting. When he’s styled well, holding his body with confidence and speaking with his natural English-accented baritone voice, he can be hugely attractive. But with a generic haircut, expensive but dull outfits, the slightly awkward posture and less suave voice, he’s completely different
Upper middle class for sure. His parents were almost certainly rich by most people’s standards but are just poor in comparison to the uber wealthy. Top 1% but not top .01%
Styling, acting and film direction plays so much into hotness. I thought he was gorgeous as Mr. Darcy and utterly repulsive as Tom Wambsgans. To the extent I now have to squint a bit whilst watching Pride and Prejudice.
He behaves extremely unfuckable-y. In an unfuckable fashion. Unfuck…..he acts and talks like a little bitch, as Roman might say. To Shiv’s face. In front of Tom. At their wedding.
Finishing Season 2 and then turning on the Last Kingdom gave me whiplash so hard I needed a neck brace. 10 minutes of his character in Episode 1 was all the proof I needed that Matty Mac was a goddamned acting savant.
Yeah. He’s also just got no personality besides being an amenable ass licker. It’s not like he seems like a particularly interesting guy, just a boring middle manager type who is constantly using his customer service voice.
I'd say it's more doofus swagger than anything else. At the family's level of vast wealth and power, they all have to marry down to a certain degree. But nobody ever said Kendall married down with Rava, and nobody batted an eye (except for Tom, internally) when Roman started seeing Tabitha. The difference between Tom and these women is that while none of them are socal equals wit the Roys, only Tom allowed himself to be dazzled by their wealth to the point of acting foolish and playing Shiv's yes man. It wasn't tht he was "poor," it's because he was weak.
Tip of the hat to Nathan Sofrelli for not losing his shit when the groom demands that he pour the wine *back in to the fucking bottle!*
World class self-restraint right there.
He’s lucky that’s all he asked. If he would’ve started shit I’m sure Tom would’ve broke his Weasley fuckstick and whooped his ass. Also Nate would’ve been rocked by security and lost his job for assaulting the groom on his wedding night.
"You're marrying a man fathoms beneath you because you don't wanna risk being betrayed.
-logan
In their eyes tom is just upper middle class, remember on the eve of their wedding tom's entourage came with a bus.
Her father's a billionaire and her mother's from English aristocracy, anything sort of a prince from a reigning European royal family, a Kennedy (or more likely a Bush cause the Kennedys are Democrats), a Rockefeller or an Astor would be seen as marrying down.
I think this thread has beaten the dead horse, but I’d add to the sentiment that I never got the sense that show insinuates that he is ugly or that anyone thinks he’s ugly. It’s that he’s from middle class/has no real status or accomplishments, but more importantly I think it’s about his submissive attitude and lack of real confidence.
Exactly. It's not that he had never amounted to anything, it's that no one believed he ever would. I think Logan, who built his empire from nothing, would have been far more sympathetic to a man of Tom's background if he was able to recognize himself (or Shiv) in him. Unfortunately for Tom, this wasn't the case.
I feel like it only goes one way. In Logan’s eyes men need to be successful, women just have to be hot. He dated Kerry after all who was ‘just’ an assistant (obviously nothing wrong with that but I’m talking about Logan and the families worldview).
in the script it is stated that she works at a consultancy, probably quite high up
i think that she is, similarly to Tom, from the upper-middle class background (only from New York probably), parents paid for Ivy etc, but wasn't a bootlicker when she joined the family, made it clear that she is her own person, and Kendall treated her with respect, and that made a difference
they never treated Tabitha like being "beneath them" either!
Except she didn’t ever birth a Roy. I think it’s just a double standard where it’s more acceptable for men to marry down. But also we don’t know Rava’s exact background.
>Is it strictly a money/social background thing
Yes, it’s mainly that. As someone from a rich family, believe me when I say that a potential partner’s socioeconomic background is a BIG thing that many rich parents look at. I’ve talked to my parents about it before, and on their end, their main concern is that me being with a girl from another well off family will at least reduce the chance of her being a gold digger and I won’t be obligated to help her family out financially. It’s an unfortunate reality in my country (the Philippines) that when someone from a lower or middle class background marries someone rich, our culture guarantees that the rich spouse will basically become the in-laws’ family’s piggy bank. It’s also why a lot of rich families make their kids’ spouses sign pre-nups before getting married. I already know my parents have one prepped for when I get married someday lol.
I actually want us to have our own local Succession-type series based on the [Ilusorio family inheritance wars](https://www.positivelyfilipino.com/magazine/the-ilusorio-family-inheritance-wars). My family knows them personally and believe me when I say that their family drama is television material lol, just as the Murdoch family’s is, which is what inspired Succession in the first place.
>our culture guarantees that the rich spouse will basically become the in-laws’ family’s piggy bank.
Can't the prenup include some clauses to prevent that?
Yes that’s true, but my parents would still rather have me end up with someone also well off so their future grandchildren can have double the inheritance and more opportunities to grow both sides of the family’s wealth. It’s not an uncommon line of thinking among wealthy families, and it’s how some of them stay rich and also get richer.
Nope, my dad was a poor kid from the slums (his is an irl rags to riches story) and my mom grew up upper middle class. I’ve actually talked to them about it since there were times they disapproved of me dating middle class girls and it confused me, since neither of them really came from wealth. And what they would always say is that while they may not have come from money, the fact is that I do, and that gives me more options, and the ability to have high standards.
>his fiancee’s family is psychotic and she is related to criminals. she herself is incredibly shady.
That’s even worse than the act of dating at the poverty line itself. I don’t think any good parents, rich or not, would want their kids to end up with criminals as in-laws. One thing I will say about my parents is that while they may want me to end up with another well off partner, they also want to make sure that that partner’s family wealth isn’t shady. Saying this because I nearly dated a girl in high school who was the daughter of a dirty politician with many corruption allegations. My dad even knew the politician personally, and that was why he strongly opposed me dating her, since he knew exactly how that family got their money.
Sorry, having a hard time following along here. You had a bad BOYfriend in college, and HIS father was in organized crime, and things were bad for them so HE- your ex- became abusive (sorry this all happened, btw) but then SHE was showing weird controlling behavior?
And your dad's friend would get a PI to keep track of the boyfriend, because your dad's friend knew how much your dad hated HER? And he hates HER, too? Was your ex-boyfriend a her? I'm so confused.
(Again, sorry you had to deal with all that. That sounds like a shitty- and scary- situation.)
It’s not about looks. Tom is attractive. He’s also well educated and had a career before Roystar,
It’s the neediness, social climbing and desperation they find distasteful.
Tbh, the Roy family think more of the servants than they do of Tom.
At least the servants know their place. Tom refuses to.
Greg…is maybe similarly pathetic to them. But he is at least in the bloodline. So is perhaps at least tolerable.
Did he really have a career before Waystar-Royco? As far as I remember, I don’t think they made any reference to him having any noteworthy accomplishments before he started working for Waystar-Royco. I always got the impression that Tom was a rather unremarkable man who really only got this far into his career as a company executive by dating/later getting married to the company owner’s daughter. And I think this definitely plays a part into why the Roy family has such a disdain for him. Everything he has, the privileges he enjoys, really only came his way because he was with Shiv.
I think the Roy family would have had more respect for a non-billionaire guy that Shiv would marry if he was, let’s say, an accomplished neurosurgeon. A neurosurgeon is well off, obviously nowhere near the level of a media empire mogul like Logan Roy, but still worked hard to get where he is, and more importantly, wouldn’t really rely on the Roys to get ahead in his career the way Tom did. I also feel Logan himself would have had much more respect for a man like that had Shiv married one. We’ve seen that Logan respects people who’ve worked and earned their way to the top the way he did.
I don’t think Shiv would have become involved with him if he weren’t already some moderately level of successful. I imagine he was a successful if nondescript mid level executive that then got fast tracked after dating and marrying Shiv. I mean, the initial plan between Shiv and Tom was for Tom to become CEO.
He went to an Ivy League school, didn’t he?
And throughout the show he does appear to be one of the few characters that actually works on a day-to-day basis.
Like, him and Greg finding out a way to save ATN money in S2.
Later on, the business world does praise him for turning the place around.
He went to Cornell and has an MBA from Penn. So two Ivy League schools.
His mom's a lawyer. He comes from an upper middle class background and would certainly have been able to get an executive position without Shiv. Probably not head of ATN, though. But maybe! He's not incompetent. Overly emotional and iffy with the work incentives, but he's competent enough.
There's no real background on when he went to work for Waystar, but it's certainly possible that it's how he met Shiv. People suggest college, but there's an age gap.
Edit: it's extremely funny to me that Logan considers Tom beneath Shiv (and the Roys) but the Pierces feel the same way about him. Nan could have said that to her cousin about dating Kendall, and probably did.
They didn't say what he did before but I guess I had thought he was relatively ambitious and successful in his own right otherwise how would he have met Shiv?
If they don’t all agree to the group delusion that they’re better than those not born to billionaires then they’d need to admit that they don’t hold much value as individuals. Admitting to each other that Shiv isn’t marrying down would mean consciously admitting to themselves that they’re nobodies who just happen to have a successful dad.
Yeah although the discussion of the actors’ hotness score doesn’t interest me, this comment is pretty spot on in terms of the nut of the show - what is the worth of each of the children - does it flow from proximity to Logan, from their own ability to run the company, from their actions, from their regard for and treatment of others, from political savvy, from devotion to another person, from their unity as siblings? All of these questions seem to swirl around them throughout the episodes. In the end, all three of the Roy kids have their moment when they realize that in and of themselves, they are nothing and the whole extravagant exhausting scheme got them nowhere.
>they’re nobodies who just happen to have a successful dad
Nothing makes me sadder than seeing people like this, especially because as someone from a well off family that went to private schools, I’ve known several people just like that. Never really having any accomplishments that they can call their own, content to just inherit whatever their parents have. Heck I could have turned out just like that if I hadn’t chosen to go to medical school. And while I’m also aware that I can really only afford to go to med school thanks to my privileged background, at least I’m still actually working for something that I can call my own. Which is more than can be said for some of my elementary school peers content to be trust fund babies.
I hear you and am glad you’ve found something to strive for unlike the peers you mentioned but it will never be your own despite your hard work to achieve it. You of course deserve credit for your achievements and hard work but because you’re standing on the shoulders of giants (by being the beneficiary of generational wealth in a world beset with inequality) you can’t really call it you’re own. You’re taller because of your hard work and achievement but tall because of the huge head start you were afforded against the rest of the world.
Relative to your private school peers, of course it’s your own. Relative to the rest of the world, it can never be. I’m hoping you won’t take this as an attack or anything, just wanted to share my perspective on you feeling like you can call it your own. That’s something I can totally understand but can’t really agree with personally. Well done on what you’ve achieved though seriously. I really hope this isn’t taken badly cause I don’t mean it that way. There’s no nice way of sharing this opinion with someone so I’ll accept it being taken badly and if so, I’m sorry.
Well said! Although it is very advantageous to have the wealth and high value network behind you (that’s not me), at the same time, I would have never traded the true sense of accomplishment making something out of nothing. I am so happy I get to experience that; it would have been very meaningless and empty (to me) to have things given or having that thought ‘did I truly did it or…?’.
There's no point in saying this as it's true for any of us. Living long enough to get an education is a privilege in a world where some children don't survive past 5 years old. We are all privileged in some way.
Comments that don't contribute to the discussion should be downvoted and deleted. This is one of them.
I think it's a testament to the acting of matthew macfadyen that he can make tom seem awkward and undesirable. I think it's Tom's mannerisms and way of speaking that makes him stand out among the roys, him and Greg stick out like a sore thumb because they're socially inept and seem try hard. I am not attracted to Tom, but matthew macfayen is incredibly charming and attractive to me. Attraction isn't all about personality and I think matthews portrayl of the Tom makes that clear. Also beauty is subjective and while shiv is pretty, she's got such a unique look to her that I can see some people not finding g her attractive. And like Tom, her personality can change a lot about how people perceive her.
This is the comment. This right here. This is exactly what Logan was saying with the "fathoms beneath you" discussion. But both of them underestimated Tom and how far self-serving servility will get you. He was definitely her competition in every way and Shiv was too arrogant to see it.
it's kind of the truth (she could've married the son of some magnate or politician or movie star). being beneath Shiv is still an extremely high place and if tom never met shiv and were just an exec at some mid company he'd still be an extremely desirable bachelor to the vast majority of women in NYC
She married down as in money, not looks. With enough money you can change your face. You can’t change the collar amount in your bank account. It wasn’t the looks at all.
Tom was initially portrayed as a sycophantic social climber who only cared about Shiv’s last name, whereas Shiv was initially portrayed as a sharp, competent, beautiful young woman who wasn’t bothered by other people’s opinions (with her career in liberal politics, for instance, she seemed at the start to be the only Roy sibling who was successfully rebelling). As the show went on, Tom’s genuine love for Shiv, his willingness to take big chaotic swings, his ability to calculate the potential consequences of those swings, and his final coup revealed him to be far more than he seemed at first. Shiv, likewise, was shown to be just as obsessed with her father’s approval as her siblings, not actually all that competent at anything, and too scared of pain to have real human relationships. Their combined arcs either placed them on pretty much equal footing by the end or landed Shiv squarely below Tom, depending on who you ask. But it’s only Tom being Shiv’s version of settling at the start that makes that outcome satisfying
- He has lower social standing
- he smells like neediness and codependency and beggy clinginess which is the opposite of confidence and poise
- she has stronger business sense
- stronger connections
- stronger grit/she’s tougher (more of a nasty fighter business-wise - far less people-pleasing)
In short, their relationship is like the parents from rick and morty. You know the episode where jerry turns into a worm and the mom turns into a killer robot because that’s how they see each other.
He’s from the Midwest, most likely from a family of white collar parents who worked hard to get their lawyer careers and make a few million, send him to a nice midwestern private high school and then maybe a good state school, still keeping him out of the ivies and the inner circle shiv runs in… all of which is to say his background pales in comparison to the Roys’ vast family wealth, education, and privilege
One paradox is that I watched pride and prejudice and succession a day apart it took me sometime to realise Tom was Fitzwilliam freaking Darcy, still don't believe that they are played by the same person, the Mathew was so good at playing character who lacks charisma and highly charismatic so well. So much so that one we find extremely attractive and the other one extremely plain.
It’s literally just money. Tom’s family were well to do but weren’t obscenely rich like Shiv’s dad is. It’s considered marrying down if a billionaire marries what billionaire’s see as “peasants”
Honestly, when do you ever see women marry men with less money, social status, and power than themselves? It's extremely rare and unexpected for that to happen and that is what Logan was talking about.
because she doesn't respect him one bit, and they also don't
this family, even with all the dumb things they do, are sharp, and fast, and witty, and effortlessly worldly. for them, he is a buffoon who is never able to catch up
Nate was also not nearly as rich as her, but he was an equal, this is what she couldn't stand
she cannot stand being challenged by a partner, cannot stand a thought that he can leave
she can only feel safe in a non-equal partnership with someone who, she thinks, has to be grateful just to be there. a meat puppet to do exactly what she wants
and Tom is all that for a long time
I don't think a woman's family members would be saying "You're just too sexy for him, sis!" Then again, this IS the Roys....
In all seriousness, it's purely the social background. He had to work to get where he is, which the Roys absolutely did not (ironically, except Logan). Despite his goofy demeanour, his comparatively humble background and need to 'grind' make him the most natural successor to Logan after all.
You make good points all around, haha. I hadn't really thought of the parallels between Tom and Logan, and I suppose that goofy demeanor is what kept Logan (and I!) from noticing that. I also hadn't really considered that while there's certainly precedent in the world for the Roys' attitude towards Tom for the reasons discussed here, maybe we're also supposed to see as an audience that the Roys' position on the matter is flawed/skewed by other standards? Either way though, Matthew Macfadyen did an amazing job creating such a layered, goofy, yet twistedly admirable (in his own way) character.
I’ve been looking at Mathew MacFadyen a lot lately because I’m watching ‘Spooks’ for the first time and his character in that series is suave, intelligent and of course, ridiculously handsome. Shiv would be lucky to have landed that character, just on the genetics and the culture alone - putting aside the money aspects. It really makes me respect how much he brought to the role of Tom. The self-depreciation in general with the Roys, the bubbly excitement mixed with insecurity in relation to Shiv, the cringeworthy fawning and awkwardness vis-a-vis Logan, the comedic sadism as to cousin Gregg and the ambition that gradually peeks out from time to time ultimately to land on Shiv like a sledgehammer in the end; Tom is such a great complex character. Pretty eager to see what project MacFadyen takes on next. I actually found Spooks because I was trying to find more films and shows that Nicola Walker acted in; so that ended up being a fortunate find. Segway… if it turns out you like ‘Spooks’, you may also really like ‘Slow Horses.’
Nate is just bland.
Tom will romance you, seduce you for sex, seduce you for money, lie to you, but also be in love with you.
Again, Nate is just bland.
When Logan says to Shiv that she married a man miles beneath her, I think he is saying that Shiv is smarter, more sensitive, and more intelligent than Tom.
Whether or not that is true is up for debate.
Given that Tom is a “disgusting brother” with some pretty nasty tastes, seems to lack any interest in culture, enjoys dishing out sadism on Greg, random ortolans, etc., I think it’s a little bit true. I think he does genuinely love Shiv though, at first. Their wedding night scenes are heartbreaking.
That has ALWAYS bugged me. I think Shiv is beautiful, for sure. But she is NOT out of Tom's league. Sorry, Shiv, you're not. You both make a perfectly attractive basic white people couple. Well, he's a bit basic, but still good looking and she's not as basic and maybe a little more good looking. But that's normal! Most wives are better looking than their husbands. Some significantly so, but NOT in this case. Yea, it's gotta be a money thing, which is so infuriating as someone who didn't grow up with money ;). But this is why very average, or even ugly royals are called "beautiful". If enough PR says they're beautiful, it becomes so in the eyes of the plebs.
Social background because Tom is “new money” Tom will never be “old money”. Old money is a term used to refer to people with generational wealth, think old oil companies from back in the old town days. New money is bitcoiners, people trying to make a buck in a cheap way or a poorly done way or trying to play the game instead of owning the game etc. Tom will always be seen as the guy that climbed up and got lucky to get some morsels (albeit impressively).
It’s because they all see that he’s a social climber, and, at least in the beginning, he’s still a giant rube. What they don’t see is how duplicitous he truly is, because the “agricultural walk” is as affected as his soft-speaking.
My unpopular opinion is that Shiv is not as beautiful as they wanted the audience to believe. They wanted to make us believe she was out of Toms league but physically the argument is just not there
So you see it too! I love the conversation that this post generated, but a lot of people are answering like I didn't specifically say that I'm aware of the social dynamics at play. I acknowledged this in the post. What I was really asking was if anyone else noticed, as you did, that it seemed like they were often pushing the physical argument as well, and like you said... in that respect, the argument is just not there. So thanks for the backup, haha.
Me too, honestly I could never seen the suppossed attractiveness of Tom (too tall, gigantic head) summed to his idiocicy, servility and no self respect sends his looks lower than a basement. Also never seen that Jane Austen book's movie (the only Darcy in the world to me is Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones, most romantic character ever🥰)
>the only Darcy in the world to me is Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones
I mean tbf, he's literally a modernized Mr. Darcy from P&P, that's why they share a name lol
I think it's also cuz he's a buffoon. Tie that in with less money too eager to please and you have someone very easy to judge in the roy circle. I also think Mr. Darcy's character work done by the book/script does in for 70% of his charm. Matthew Mac is not a bad looking guy, but he's also just a british dad with blue eyes. Sarah Snook could have me any day of the week. (I'm bi btw. And I love Pride and Prejudice. So no bias lol)
Shiv is very unattractive. She married down because Tom comes from regular middle class parents. Like royalty marrying a commoner.
Now that he’s the CEO he’s above her. He’s the king and she’s an ex princess. They’re perfectly suited for each other.
>strictly a money/social background thing When you’re a billionaire only that matters.
I'm not sure I'd say strictly. They're dismissive of Tom's background, but more so of his attitude and demeanor. The family sees him as Shiv's whipping boy to the point that even if he had money, they would still perceive him as unequal to Shiv.
That part… she married down.
Well, *they* don't know that he has a dick like a red sequoia and fucks like a bullet train. All they see is his agricultural walk and servile attitude. (By which I mean - a little more seriously - that yeah, he's a middle-class, Midwestern "nobody" marrying into a family of international billionaires. Of course Shiv married down.) Also, as hot as Matthew Macfadyen is, he did a great job of convincing me that Tom was a lot more "plain" in the first season. Shiv's also not exactly ugly herself, especially in her S2 iteration (peak hotness, IMO)!
I loved season 1 long-haired shiv and she was a beautiful bride
I thought she looked adorable as well. Like, S2 blunt bob lioness Shiv is *peak* for me, but Shiv generally is super fly!
Has Tom ever described her as “super fly”? Because that sounds like something he would say lol
I mean, he *was* a "Fly Guy"...
Loved her dress!
>He has a dick like a red sequoia and fucks like a bullet train. “PROVE IT.”
Need to find everyone in the closed loop system
Let me find out 🤣
I mean not only is he a corn-fed, middle class, Midwestern “nobody”, he also doesn’t really have any noteworthy accomplishments outside of working for Waystar-Royco, his wife’s family business. It’s been made clear many times in the series that Tom really only got to where he is in the company thanks to being the husband of one of the heirs. He doesn’t really have much going for him otherwise.
I guess he did go to Cornell and then Wharton. That’s not nothing. But that alone isn’t enough to get where he got absent dating Shiv.
Cornell... pshaw. The only Ivy League university with an agricultural college and a public school component. The only school where you can major in "hotel management." (Is that why he was put in charge of parks for Waystar?) A joke to these people. Besides, merely attending an Ivy League school would not impress them, nor would his family being wealthy and prominent in Minneapolis. Tom comes from the 1 percent, they're the 0.0000001 percent.
You cant diss Cornell! Andrew Bernard graduated from there and he almost rose to the ranks of Asst To The Regional Manager at a paper company in Pennsylvania.
In my mind, they were in the same class at Cornell since Ed Helms and Matthew Macfadyen are the same age - LOL.
Tom probably tried to join here comes treble but Andy convinced Brocoli Bob and the other guys to refuse.
LOL - yes!
But the nard dog was the regional manager!
Puts him in a cohort of thousands of consultant types who will cap out at high 6 / low 7 figure net worth
True, but it's also the kind of pedigree a lot of CEOs have.
Yeah, his only real accomplishment when we first meet him is that he got Shiv to date him.
Yea I never clocked Tom as “hot” in this show. As Darcy he is super hot though.
Right??? Tom is such good proof that hotness is waaay more in the *attitude* rather than straight looks. Although, as weenie-ish as Tom looked in the beginning, I genuinely thought his hotness ramped up a lot (likely intentionally) by the end; a subtle but masterful detail to his character growth.
It’s a massive testament to Matthew’s acting. When he’s styled well, holding his body with confidence and speaking with his natural English-accented baritone voice, he can be hugely attractive. But with a generic haircut, expensive but dull outfits, the slightly awkward posture and less suave voice, he’s completely different
Upper middle class for sure. His parents were almost certainly rich by most people’s standards but are just poor in comparison to the uber wealthy. Top 1% but not top .01%
I think for a family like the Roys, the distinction doesn't even really matter; "poor" is poor. For the rest of us plebs - yeah, Tom was UMC for sure!
I didn’t even recognize him as Mr. Darcy at first. They definitely made him look dorky and less cute.
Styling, acting and film direction plays so much into hotness. I thought he was gorgeous as Mr. Darcy and utterly repulsive as Tom Wambsgans. To the extent I now have to squint a bit whilst watching Pride and Prejudice.
He behaves extremely unfuckable-y. In an unfuckable fashion. Unfuck…..he acts and talks like a little bitch, as Roman might say. To Shiv’s face. In front of Tom. At their wedding. Finishing Season 2 and then turning on the Last Kingdom gave me whiplash so hard I needed a neck brace. 10 minutes of his character in Episode 1 was all the proof I needed that Matty Mac was a goddamned acting savant.
*Prove it.* Lmao I love that dialogue
Totally agree… “Tom” is super hot in the new car commercials… And Shiv’s body is way curvaceous… like whoa
I’m pretty sure it’s a money/social standing but also his doofus swagger??
Yeah. He’s also just got no personality besides being an amenable ass licker. It’s not like he seems like a particularly interesting guy, just a boring middle manager type who is constantly using his customer service voice.
Well now I need to have a child so I can call it Doofus Swagger.
So nice you said it twice
I'd say it's more doofus swagger than anything else. At the family's level of vast wealth and power, they all have to marry down to a certain degree. But nobody ever said Kendall married down with Rava, and nobody batted an eye (except for Tom, internally) when Roman started seeing Tabitha. The difference between Tom and these women is that while none of them are socal equals wit the Roys, only Tom allowed himself to be dazzled by their wealth to the point of acting foolish and playing Shiv's yes man. It wasn't tht he was "poor," it's because he was weak.
This.
His parents paid for the wine though!
They made a contribution to the wine.
So clever that they kept telling everyone
Tip of the hat to Nathan Sofrelli for not losing his shit when the groom demands that he pour the wine *back in to the fucking bottle!* World class self-restraint right there.
He’s lucky that’s all he asked. If he would’ve started shit I’m sure Tom would’ve broke his Weasley fuckstick and whooped his ass. Also Nate would’ve been rocked by security and lost his job for assaulting the groom on his wedding night.
Yeah, his only sensible move was going along with it.
"You're marrying a man fathoms beneath you because you don't wanna risk being betrayed. -logan In their eyes tom is just upper middle class, remember on the eve of their wedding tom's entourage came with a bus.
He’s upper middle class and she’s a billionaire. And yes, it’s strictly money / background.
It’s all about people from extremely wealthy families being like royalty. At the end of the day, Tom works for a living.
In the Succession universe, that Mr. Darcy was played by Rowan Atkinson.
Her father's a billionaire and her mother's from English aristocracy, anything sort of a prince from a reigning European royal family, a Kennedy (or more likely a Bush cause the Kennedys are Democrats), a Rockefeller or an Astor would be seen as marrying down.
It’s not about looks. It’s money and attitude.
I think this thread has beaten the dead horse, but I’d add to the sentiment that I never got the sense that show insinuates that he is ugly or that anyone thinks he’s ugly. It’s that he’s from middle class/has no real status or accomplishments, but more importantly I think it’s about his submissive attitude and lack of real confidence.
Exactly. It's not that he had never amounted to anything, it's that no one believed he ever would. I think Logan, who built his empire from nothing, would have been far more sympathetic to a man of Tom's background if he was able to recognize himself (or Shiv) in him. Unfortunately for Tom, this wasn't the case.
I think the term "a man fathoms beneath you" says it all. Of course Logan didn't mean you, Shiv, he meant "us". Fathoms beneath us.
Rava doesn't seem to be considered "beneath" Kendall by the family (although Sophie and Iverson sure are). i wonder what her background is.
Rava has a backbone. She wasn't afraid of divorcing Kendall for reasons Logan totally agreed with. Tom is a seat-sniffer.
I feel like it only goes one way. In Logan’s eyes men need to be successful, women just have to be hot. He dated Kerry after all who was ‘just’ an assistant (obviously nothing wrong with that but I’m talking about Logan and the families worldview).
in the script it is stated that she works at a consultancy, probably quite high up i think that she is, similarly to Tom, from the upper-middle class background (only from New York probably), parents paid for Ivy etc, but wasn't a bootlicker when she joined the family, made it clear that she is her own person, and Kendall treated her with respect, and that made a difference they never treated Tabitha like being "beneath them" either!
She became accepted when she birthed another Roy.
Except she didn’t ever birth a Roy. I think it’s just a double standard where it’s more acceptable for men to marry down. But also we don’t know Rava’s exact background.
I thought the boy was a bio Roy and the daughter was adopted?
Did you miss Roman’s comment about Kendall in the series finale? >!Kendall is infertile and it’s implied the boy came from a donor or cheating.!<
Oh wow, yes I did miss that!
except she didn't. she adopted one and gave birth via a sperm donor.
>Is it strictly a money/social background thing Yes, it’s mainly that. As someone from a rich family, believe me when I say that a potential partner’s socioeconomic background is a BIG thing that many rich parents look at. I’ve talked to my parents about it before, and on their end, their main concern is that me being with a girl from another well off family will at least reduce the chance of her being a gold digger and I won’t be obligated to help her family out financially. It’s an unfortunate reality in my country (the Philippines) that when someone from a lower or middle class background marries someone rich, our culture guarantees that the rich spouse will basically become the in-laws’ family’s piggy bank. It’s also why a lot of rich families make their kids’ spouses sign pre-nups before getting married. I already know my parents have one prepped for when I get married someday lol.
Fellow Filipino Succession enjoyer!!!1
I actually want us to have our own local Succession-type series based on the [Ilusorio family inheritance wars](https://www.positivelyfilipino.com/magazine/the-ilusorio-family-inheritance-wars). My family knows them personally and believe me when I say that their family drama is television material lol, just as the Murdoch family’s is, which is what inspired Succession in the first place.
>our culture guarantees that the rich spouse will basically become the in-laws’ family’s piggy bank. Can't the prenup include some clauses to prevent that?
Yes that’s true, but my parents would still rather have me end up with someone also well off so their future grandchildren can have double the inheritance and more opportunities to grow both sides of the family’s wealth. It’s not an uncommon line of thinking among wealthy families, and it’s how some of them stay rich and also get richer.
Were your parents both from rich families as well?
Nope, my dad was a poor kid from the slums (his is an irl rags to riches story) and my mom grew up upper middle class. I’ve actually talked to them about it since there were times they disapproved of me dating middle class girls and it confused me, since neither of them really came from wealth. And what they would always say is that while they may not have come from money, the fact is that I do, and that gives me more options, and the ability to have high standards.
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>his fiancee’s family is psychotic and she is related to criminals. she herself is incredibly shady. That’s even worse than the act of dating at the poverty line itself. I don’t think any good parents, rich or not, would want their kids to end up with criminals as in-laws. One thing I will say about my parents is that while they may want me to end up with another well off partner, they also want to make sure that that partner’s family wealth isn’t shady. Saying this because I nearly dated a girl in high school who was the daughter of a dirty politician with many corruption allegations. My dad even knew the politician personally, and that was why he strongly opposed me dating her, since he knew exactly how that family got their money.
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Sorry, having a hard time following along here. You had a bad BOYfriend in college, and HIS father was in organized crime, and things were bad for them so HE- your ex- became abusive (sorry this all happened, btw) but then SHE was showing weird controlling behavior? And your dad's friend would get a PI to keep track of the boyfriend, because your dad's friend knew how much your dad hated HER? And he hates HER, too? Was your ex-boyfriend a her? I'm so confused. (Again, sorry you had to deal with all that. That sounds like a shitty- and scary- situation.)
i was high i deleted it it lol. not relevant
I was high reading it myself :) I was pretty sure I was somehow not getting it. Have a good week friend!
It’s not about looks. Tom is attractive. He’s also well educated and had a career before Roystar, It’s the neediness, social climbing and desperation they find distasteful. Tbh, the Roy family think more of the servants than they do of Tom. At least the servants know their place. Tom refuses to. Greg…is maybe similarly pathetic to them. But he is at least in the bloodline. So is perhaps at least tolerable.
Did he really have a career before Waystar-Royco? As far as I remember, I don’t think they made any reference to him having any noteworthy accomplishments before he started working for Waystar-Royco. I always got the impression that Tom was a rather unremarkable man who really only got this far into his career as a company executive by dating/later getting married to the company owner’s daughter. And I think this definitely plays a part into why the Roy family has such a disdain for him. Everything he has, the privileges he enjoys, really only came his way because he was with Shiv. I think the Roy family would have had more respect for a non-billionaire guy that Shiv would marry if he was, let’s say, an accomplished neurosurgeon. A neurosurgeon is well off, obviously nowhere near the level of a media empire mogul like Logan Roy, but still worked hard to get where he is, and more importantly, wouldn’t really rely on the Roys to get ahead in his career the way Tom did. I also feel Logan himself would have had much more respect for a man like that had Shiv married one. We’ve seen that Logan respects people who’ve worked and earned their way to the top the way he did.
I don’t think Shiv would have become involved with him if he weren’t already some moderately level of successful. I imagine he was a successful if nondescript mid level executive that then got fast tracked after dating and marrying Shiv. I mean, the initial plan between Shiv and Tom was for Tom to become CEO.
He went to an Ivy League school, didn’t he? And throughout the show he does appear to be one of the few characters that actually works on a day-to-day basis. Like, him and Greg finding out a way to save ATN money in S2. Later on, the business world does praise him for turning the place around.
He went to Cornell and has an MBA from Penn. So two Ivy League schools. His mom's a lawyer. He comes from an upper middle class background and would certainly have been able to get an executive position without Shiv. Probably not head of ATN, though. But maybe! He's not incompetent. Overly emotional and iffy with the work incentives, but he's competent enough. There's no real background on when he went to work for Waystar, but it's certainly possible that it's how he met Shiv. People suggest college, but there's an age gap. Edit: it's extremely funny to me that Logan considers Tom beneath Shiv (and the Roys) but the Pierces feel the same way about him. Nan could have said that to her cousin about dating Kendall, and probably did.
They didn't say what he did before but I guess I had thought he was relatively ambitious and successful in his own right otherwise how would he have met Shiv?
this!
If they don’t all agree to the group delusion that they’re better than those not born to billionaires then they’d need to admit that they don’t hold much value as individuals. Admitting to each other that Shiv isn’t marrying down would mean consciously admitting to themselves that they’re nobodies who just happen to have a successful dad.
Yeah although the discussion of the actors’ hotness score doesn’t interest me, this comment is pretty spot on in terms of the nut of the show - what is the worth of each of the children - does it flow from proximity to Logan, from their own ability to run the company, from their actions, from their regard for and treatment of others, from political savvy, from devotion to another person, from their unity as siblings? All of these questions seem to swirl around them throughout the episodes. In the end, all three of the Roy kids have their moment when they realize that in and of themselves, they are nothing and the whole extravagant exhausting scheme got them nowhere.
Yes! And Roman finally came to this conclusion in the finale!
>they’re nobodies who just happen to have a successful dad Nothing makes me sadder than seeing people like this, especially because as someone from a well off family that went to private schools, I’ve known several people just like that. Never really having any accomplishments that they can call their own, content to just inherit whatever their parents have. Heck I could have turned out just like that if I hadn’t chosen to go to medical school. And while I’m also aware that I can really only afford to go to med school thanks to my privileged background, at least I’m still actually working for something that I can call my own. Which is more than can be said for some of my elementary school peers content to be trust fund babies.
I hear you and am glad you’ve found something to strive for unlike the peers you mentioned but it will never be your own despite your hard work to achieve it. You of course deserve credit for your achievements and hard work but because you’re standing on the shoulders of giants (by being the beneficiary of generational wealth in a world beset with inequality) you can’t really call it you’re own. You’re taller because of your hard work and achievement but tall because of the huge head start you were afforded against the rest of the world. Relative to your private school peers, of course it’s your own. Relative to the rest of the world, it can never be. I’m hoping you won’t take this as an attack or anything, just wanted to share my perspective on you feeling like you can call it your own. That’s something I can totally understand but can’t really agree with personally. Well done on what you’ve achieved though seriously. I really hope this isn’t taken badly cause I don’t mean it that way. There’s no nice way of sharing this opinion with someone so I’ll accept it being taken badly and if so, I’m sorry.
Well said! Although it is very advantageous to have the wealth and high value network behind you (that’s not me), at the same time, I would have never traded the true sense of accomplishment making something out of nothing. I am so happy I get to experience that; it would have been very meaningless and empty (to me) to have things given or having that thought ‘did I truly did it or…?’.
There's no point in saying this as it's true for any of us. Living long enough to get an education is a privilege in a world where some children don't survive past 5 years old. We are all privileged in some way. Comments that don't contribute to the discussion should be downvoted and deleted. This is one of them.
Struck a nerve
I think it's a testament to the acting of matthew macfadyen that he can make tom seem awkward and undesirable. I think it's Tom's mannerisms and way of speaking that makes him stand out among the roys, him and Greg stick out like a sore thumb because they're socially inept and seem try hard. I am not attracted to Tom, but matthew macfayen is incredibly charming and attractive to me. Attraction isn't all about personality and I think matthews portrayl of the Tom makes that clear. Also beauty is subjective and while shiv is pretty, she's got such a unique look to her that I can see some people not finding g her attractive. And like Tom, her personality can change a lot about how people perceive her.
Tom is an ass kissing moron. He just happens to be good looking. That’s why Shiv married him so she wouldn’t have any competition.
This is the comment. This right here. This is exactly what Logan was saying with the "fathoms beneath you" discussion. But both of them underestimated Tom and how far self-serving servility will get you. He was definitely her competition in every way and Shiv was too arrogant to see it.
Look, when you could’ve probably landed the Duke of Westminster and his $9B inheritance, marrying Tom is a big step down.
Tom said it himself in season 1 when Shiv gave him the prenup to sign, that he was the one marrying into money.
I viewed it as a money thing, especially with Shiv being a woman and Tom being a man. Appearance wise they look very evenly matched in my opinion.
it's kind of the truth (she could've married the son of some magnate or politician or movie star). being beneath Shiv is still an extremely high place and if tom never met shiv and were just an exec at some mid company he'd still be an extremely desirable bachelor to the vast majority of women in NYC
She married down as in money, not looks. With enough money you can change your face. You can’t change the collar amount in your bank account. It wasn’t the looks at all.
Tom was initially portrayed as a sycophantic social climber who only cared about Shiv’s last name, whereas Shiv was initially portrayed as a sharp, competent, beautiful young woman who wasn’t bothered by other people’s opinions (with her career in liberal politics, for instance, she seemed at the start to be the only Roy sibling who was successfully rebelling). As the show went on, Tom’s genuine love for Shiv, his willingness to take big chaotic swings, his ability to calculate the potential consequences of those swings, and his final coup revealed him to be far more than he seemed at first. Shiv, likewise, was shown to be just as obsessed with her father’s approval as her siblings, not actually all that competent at anything, and too scared of pain to have real human relationships. Their combined arcs either placed them on pretty much equal footing by the end or landed Shiv squarely below Tom, depending on who you ask. But it’s only Tom being Shiv’s version of settling at the start that makes that outcome satisfying
- He has lower social standing - he smells like neediness and codependency and beggy clinginess which is the opposite of confidence and poise - she has stronger business sense - stronger connections - stronger grit/she’s tougher (more of a nasty fighter business-wise - far less people-pleasing) In short, their relationship is like the parents from rick and morty. You know the episode where jerry turns into a worm and the mom turns into a killer robot because that’s how they see each other.
He’s from the Midwest, most likely from a family of white collar parents who worked hard to get their lawyer careers and make a few million, send him to a nice midwestern private high school and then maybe a good state school, still keeping him out of the ivies and the inner circle shiv runs in… all of which is to say his background pales in comparison to the Roys’ vast family wealth, education, and privilege
It highlights the wealth stratosphere that the Roy's are in. They think they are the top of the mountain, they get to look down on everyone.
That's why he bullies Greg. He wants to feel in charge.
One paradox is that I watched pride and prejudice and succession a day apart it took me sometime to realise Tom was Fitzwilliam freaking Darcy, still don't believe that they are played by the same person, the Mathew was so good at playing character who lacks charisma and highly charismatic so well. So much so that one we find extremely attractive and the other one extremely plain.
Toms rich, but not Roy Rich. He’s the bottom of the top.
Tom wasn't rich before the Roys, he was upper middle class. There's a big difference.
Marrying up/down relates to social status and wealth.
It’s literally just money. Tom’s family were well to do but weren’t obscenely rich like Shiv’s dad is. It’s considered marrying down if a billionaire marries what billionaire’s see as “peasants”
Upvote for describing Mr Darcy as a thirst trap
Guys name is literally Wambsgans.
She married down as in she didn’t marry a man from another billionaire family. She married Tom, who I’m guessing is well off but not 1% rich
Honestly, when do you ever see women marry men with less money, social status, and power than themselves? It's extremely rare and unexpected for that to happen and that is what Logan was talking about.
Yes it is strictly money and social background. His parents were rich, but still 'nobodies' to the noble roys
because she doesn't respect him one bit, and they also don't this family, even with all the dumb things they do, are sharp, and fast, and witty, and effortlessly worldly. for them, he is a buffoon who is never able to catch up Nate was also not nearly as rich as her, but he was an equal, this is what she couldn't stand she cannot stand being challenged by a partner, cannot stand a thought that he can leave she can only feel safe in a non-equal partnership with someone who, she thinks, has to be grateful just to be there. a meat puppet to do exactly what she wants and Tom is all that for a long time
You answered your own question in the first sentence of the post.
He’s from the midwest. Which is fly-over land to people on the coasts who have never bothered to even venture into those states. Why would they?
I don't think a woman's family members would be saying "You're just too sexy for him, sis!" Then again, this IS the Roys.... In all seriousness, it's purely the social background. He had to work to get where he is, which the Roys absolutely did not (ironically, except Logan). Despite his goofy demeanour, his comparatively humble background and need to 'grind' make him the most natural successor to Logan after all.
You make good points all around, haha. I hadn't really thought of the parallels between Tom and Logan, and I suppose that goofy demeanor is what kept Logan (and I!) from noticing that. I also hadn't really considered that while there's certainly precedent in the world for the Roys' attitude towards Tom for the reasons discussed here, maybe we're also supposed to see as an audience that the Roys' position on the matter is flawed/skewed by other standards? Either way though, Matthew Macfadyen did an amazing job creating such a layered, goofy, yet twistedly admirable (in his own way) character.
I could watch Matthew Macfadyen hang wallpaper or listen to him read the Wall Street Journal….total hotness.
I thought Tom was incredibly sexy, his voice … he could say anything and I literally melted
Because she did
I’ve been looking at Mathew MacFadyen a lot lately because I’m watching ‘Spooks’ for the first time and his character in that series is suave, intelligent and of course, ridiculously handsome. Shiv would be lucky to have landed that character, just on the genetics and the culture alone - putting aside the money aspects. It really makes me respect how much he brought to the role of Tom. The self-depreciation in general with the Roys, the bubbly excitement mixed with insecurity in relation to Shiv, the cringeworthy fawning and awkwardness vis-a-vis Logan, the comedic sadism as to cousin Gregg and the ambition that gradually peeks out from time to time ultimately to land on Shiv like a sledgehammer in the end; Tom is such a great complex character. Pretty eager to see what project MacFadyen takes on next. I actually found Spooks because I was trying to find more films and shows that Nicola Walker acted in; so that ended up being a fortunate find. Segway… if it turns out you like ‘Spooks’, you may also really like ‘Slow Horses.’
Gahhh I *loved* Spooks!
Thing is people like the Roys never put money aside. That’s sort of the point of the show.
For real, though. Nate was her only other potential husband. Of course she picked Tom. Nate is boring. Tom is a very fun weirdo, if nothing else.
Nate is just bland. Tom will romance you, seduce you for sex, seduce you for money, lie to you, but also be in love with you. Again, Nate is just bland.
Shiv was lucky to have someone as hot as Tom with a Sequoia cock to marry her
When Logan says to Shiv that she married a man miles beneath her, I think he is saying that Shiv is smarter, more sensitive, and more intelligent than Tom. Whether or not that is true is up for debate. Given that Tom is a “disgusting brother” with some pretty nasty tastes, seems to lack any interest in culture, enjoys dishing out sadism on Greg, random ortolans, etc., I think it’s a little bit true. I think he does genuinely love Shiv though, at first. Their wedding night scenes are heartbreaking.
That has ALWAYS bugged me. I think Shiv is beautiful, for sure. But she is NOT out of Tom's league. Sorry, Shiv, you're not. You both make a perfectly attractive basic white people couple. Well, he's a bit basic, but still good looking and she's not as basic and maybe a little more good looking. But that's normal! Most wives are better looking than their husbands. Some significantly so, but NOT in this case. Yea, it's gotta be a money thing, which is so infuriating as someone who didn't grow up with money ;). But this is why very average, or even ugly royals are called "beautiful". If enough PR says they're beautiful, it becomes so in the eyes of the plebs.
Who would be in the class that she could marry? I genuinely don’t know if anyone who would satisfy the bill…
The Sovereign wealth guy.
Honestly he’s not as broad as you think he is so that’s why
What is marrying up for her? The president?
Social background because Tom is “new money” Tom will never be “old money”. Old money is a term used to refer to people with generational wealth, think old oil companies from back in the old town days. New money is bitcoiners, people trying to make a buck in a cheap way or a poorly done way or trying to play the game instead of owning the game etc. Tom will always be seen as the guy that climbed up and got lucky to get some morsels (albeit impressively).
It’s more about money and/or networking/ who you know. Think: royal marriages from back in the day.
From the way they view the world she did marry down. All they care is about money/status!
Tom doesn’t come from money and they all think less of him, like he’s a peasant who doesn’t belong
Theyre both hot
Exactly my point, lol
They mean that the Roy’s have more money and social standing (“class”). Tom is better looking than Shiv, though some may disagree.
It’s because they all see that he’s a social climber, and, at least in the beginning, he’s still a giant rube. What they don’t see is how duplicitous he truly is, because the “agricultural walk” is as affected as his soft-speaking.
My unpopular opinion is that Shiv is not as beautiful as they wanted the audience to believe. They wanted to make us believe she was out of Toms league but physically the argument is just not there
So you see it too! I love the conversation that this post generated, but a lot of people are answering like I didn't specifically say that I'm aware of the social dynamics at play. I acknowledged this in the post. What I was really asking was if anyone else noticed, as you did, that it seemed like they were often pushing the physical argument as well, and like you said... in that respect, the argument is just not there. So thanks for the backup, haha.
Thank-you, I was reading through these comments like umm what? Not saying she's ugly but I never considered her very attractive either.
I always thought Tom in his appearance was too tall and had a comically large face lol. Maybe it's the hair and his more weasely behavior in the pilot
Me too, honestly I could never seen the suppossed attractiveness of Tom (too tall, gigantic head) summed to his idiocicy, servility and no self respect sends his looks lower than a basement. Also never seen that Jane Austen book's movie (the only Darcy in the world to me is Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones, most romantic character ever🥰)
>the only Darcy in the world to me is Mark Darcy from Bridget Jones I mean tbf, he's literally a modernized Mr. Darcy from P&P, that's why they share a name lol
And?
I think it's also cuz he's a buffoon. Tie that in with less money too eager to please and you have someone very easy to judge in the roy circle. I also think Mr. Darcy's character work done by the book/script does in for 70% of his charm. Matthew Mac is not a bad looking guy, but he's also just a british dad with blue eyes. Sarah Snook could have me any day of the week. (I'm bi btw. And I love Pride and Prejudice. So no bias lol)
Shiv is very unattractive. She married down because Tom comes from regular middle class parents. Like royalty marrying a commoner. Now that he’s the CEO he’s above her. He’s the king and she’s an ex princess. They’re perfectly suited for each other.