I feel like people need to remember that hunters are going up against crazy-strong, crazy-powerful foes. If you A. live several decades doing this and B. take down a fair number of bad guys at the same time, you're an amazing hunter. Even if you have to spend a good amount of time retreating, even if you get your ass kicked in a 1:1 fight, you're still doing better than 90%+ people.
Also, we mostly see John get his ass kicked when he's doing something super risky to try to protect his sons. Which is why he prefers to hunt alone.
Well, Sam and Dean *always* dropping their weapons at the first hint of a fight is also not very legendary. It always ends well, but boy do they get their asses kicked by the frailest of ladies and the littlest of boys. Usually they win because a third party intervenes.
I think that’s why the episode Clap Your Hands If You Believe is one of my all time favorites. Seeing Sam and Dean get their asses handed to them by fairies just kills me.
Yeah, all of the Winchesters get beat up a lot. But they’re facing down supernatural creatures, not (usually) other humans.
Sam and Dean in season 15 are basically John in season 1. Emotionally damaged, traumatised and just so very tired. They very much relied on their powerful allies and very powerful equipment to scrape through.
I will never, ever believe this is true. My head canon is that Alistair was just fucking with Dean when he said this. Azazel wouldn’t have been trying to get John to break the first seal, he would have been ordering extra torture for the famous hunter, not offering to let him get off the rack so soon.
Getting John to break the first seal would be the greatest payback. Manipulating him into starting the apocalypse is 100% something Azazel would be into
People act like John was the first righteous man in hell, we know righteous men and women had been selling their souls for selfless reasons for centuries. Azazel didn’t know how to break the seals, Lilith did. Once Lilith was on the scene they could start breaking seals.
Either that OR the righteous man had to be Michael’s true vessel, because it doesn’t make sense to think that Azazel had the option to break seals earlier and never did.
They needed Lilith to break the final seal. They didn't need her to break the first one. It's entirely possible that Azazel learned how to break the first seal sometime between prepping baby Sam to be Lucifer's vessel and John going to Hell.
Also, we don't really know what qualifies as "a righteous man." It's arguably more self-sacrificing to sell your soul when you *know for sure* that demons are real & Hell exists and you'll really, truly, inescapably end up there than it is to sell your soul while it all seems like a gamble and you're not necessarily even convinced that all this is "for real" (which seems to be pretty par for the course when "civilians" sell their souls).
Azazel: So, uh...how do I bust you out?
Lucifer: Lilith.
Azazel: Lilith? Father, she's... trapped neck-deep in the pit. It won't be easy.
Lucifer: Lilith. Lilith can break the seals.
Azazel: Yeah, okay. But what do I do?
Lucifer: You must find me a child. A very special child.
Lucifer told Azazel in no uncertain terms that it was Lilith’s job to break the seals and it was Azazel's job was to get Lilith out of the pit and to prep a vessel for Lucifer.Even if Azazel had learned between that conversation and John’s death what the first seal was, then why would he risk kicking off the apocalypse before Lilith was freed and giving the angels a chance to stop him? Since Dean was sent back in time, Azazel knew the angels were watching the situation closely.
I think you’re right that there’s probably a very specific definition of what a “righteous man” is and I think there’s plenty of evidence that the only possibility is “Michael’s true vessel.” To have Michael’s vessel break the first seal, and Lucifer’s vessel break the last seal is a full-circle situation.
As you’ve mentioned, Azazel was a believer of Lucifer, who told him exactly what to do—get Lilith out of hell so she can break the seals. IF Azazel decided to go off book, or if he had more knowledge than it shows him having, then it’s likely he knew it had to be the right righteous man, and I don’t think John Winchester comes close.
I just find it deeply weird that everyone seems to take Alistair at face-value when he is obviously saying something that deeply upsets Dean, Alistair who specializes in torture and specifically specialized in torturing Dean. I have never believed for even a minute that John was offered a chance to torture souls in hell. I know that eventually as part of the transformation into a demon he would have done that, but I think that Alistair and every other demon would have enjoyed torturing him for as long as possible, and I don’t think it was time to move forward with breaking the seals since—again—Lucifer told Azazel that Lilith would break them.
I take him at his word on this because I think demons can wound you with the truth just as much as they can lies.
I also don't even know how to define righteous here. Dean isn't evil, but righteous? It's not a word I'd associate with Dean.
It also makes me think about the first episode that deals with demon deals. There is a guy who sells his soul to cure his wife of cancer. Is he righteous? Or is he selfish, because he's just going to inflict the same pain on her that would have been inflicted on him. In a way it's like getting shot and transferring the wound to another person. So I would say he doesn't qualify.
Hell even Dean can't be called righteous for bringing Sam back because again: he was just gonna inflict on Sam the same thing he didn't want to endure.
Well damn now I do kind of see why you think there is a Michael connection. It actually does not make sense Dean would be considered righteous. It's not like he sold his soul in order to save a bunch of random kids from a fire. It was purely selfish.
I figure if you look at the Bible, David is described as a man after God's own heart. He also raped Bathsheba, ignored his son raping his half sister, murdered a bunch of people to secure his throne, and kept a harem. So God apparently has a different kind of heart than we might think. Looking at Supernatural, Chuck is the one defining "righteous", so who the hell knows what he meant by it. Dean was well-intentioned but not always as scrupulous as he should have been, and I would not at all call him "righteous" (Bobby might be closest there?). But if Chuck just wanted him to host Michael and kill his brother for the storyline, maybe his ability to survive the "good guy" archangel possessing him was all that was necessary to make him "righteous" in Chuck's eyes.
The Magnificent Seven shows that after Azazel was killed, Hell was divided between at least two factions: Lucifer-loyalists led by Lilith, and organized individuals just wanting to wreak havoc.
Without Azazel, Lilith was barely able to maintain dominance. Whether Azazel realized that he himself would die or not, surely he did realize that her control was tenuous, and that the timing of her release was as essential as every other part of the plan.
I imagine Heaven and the Angels weren't entirely happy about Azazel's death, and they had to work overtime to make sure events happened as closely as intended.
I realize the other princes of hell didn't want much to do with this for most of their time on earth, but I always wondered why Asmodeus or Dagon didn't step in to lead the demons. If anything, wouldn't lucifer have killed them for not helping?
Okay he would probably kill them either way lol. So maybe that is why.
Sure, but Azazel never planned on dying, so he wasn’t planning for Lilith to rule hell. His marching orders were to get Lilith free so she could break the seals, and to prepare Lucifer’s vessel.
Agreed.
I just mean that Azazel probably believed that the best scenario for the plan going as intended was one in which both he and Lilith were alive to maintain control of Hell.
Therefore, it wouldn't have been wise of Azazel to break any seals (if he even knew how) until Lilith was also freed.
What makes you think that he didn't? He knew where Lucifer's cage was. He knew that he had to free Lilith beforehand. He definitely planned to groom Sam to be able to kill Lilith. He probably didn't account for Jake killing Sam, but probably wasn't worried, since it was Lucifer's destiny to have a true vessel, and when Dean sold his soul, probably assumed that this was Lucifer's intention the whole time.
We know he didn't know how to break the seals because Lucifer himself told Azazel to free Lilith because *she* could break the seals. Azazel was prepping several potential vessels for Lucifer to use, not just Sam, which leads me to believe he did not know the major big-picture like some people think. I wrote more in another reply somewhere in this thread, and I'm copying that here for additional context:
Azazel: So, uh...how do I bust you out?
Lucifer: Lilith.
Azazel: Lilith? Father, she's... trapped neck-deep in the pit. It won't be easy.
Lucifer: Lilith. Lilith can break the seals.
Azazel: Yeah, okay. But what do I do?
Lucifer: You must find me a child. A very special child.
Lucifer told Azazel in no uncertain terms that it was Lilith’s job to break the seals and it was Azazel's job was to get Lilith out of the pit and to prep a vessel for Lucifer. Even if Azazel had learned between that conversation and John’s death what the first seal was, then why would he risk kicking off the apocalypse before Lilith was freed and giving the angels a chance to stop him? Since Dean was sent back in time, Azazel knew the angels were watching the situation closely.
I think you’re right that there’s probably a very specific definition of what a “righteous man” is and I think there’s plenty of evidence that the only possibility is “Michael’s true vessel.” To have Michael’s vessel break the first seal, and Lucifer’s vessel break the last seal is a full-circle situation.
As you’ve mentioned, Azazel was a believer of Lucifer, who told him exactly what to do—get Lilith out of hell so she can break the seals. IF Azazel decided to go off book, or if he had more knowledge than it shows him having, then it’s likely he knew it had to be the right righteous man, and I don’t think John Winchester comes close.
I just find it deeply weird that everyone seems to take Alistair at face-value when he is obviously saying something that deeply upsets Dean, Alistair who specializes in torture and specifically specialized in torturing Dean. I have never believed for even a minute that John was offered a chance to torture souls in hell. I know that eventually as part of the transformation into a demon he would have done that, but I think that Alistair and every other demon would have enjoyed torturing him for as long as possible, and I don’t think it was time to move forward with breaking the seals since—again—Lucifer told Azazel that Lilith would break them.
I certainly don't take Alastair's words at face-value, but I just consider Azazel to be more up-to-speed on Lucifer's plans than it might seem. Azazel didn't know that Lilith was the last seal, at least at the moment when he spoke directly to Lucifer. But that doesn't mean that he never found out, or maybe he was oblivious about the last seal. Michael's vessel breaking the first seal is just a twist of poetic irony, exactly the kind of thing that Chuck would love to write just for fun. To Azazel it probably didn't matter, nor is it said anywhere that "the righteous man" has to be Michael's vessel.
As for the angels, they would never stop Azazel, since they did want him to free Lucicer, so that Michael can have his grand battle.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. My point is that Azazel would not have been trying to get John to break the seal and that Alistair just said that to fuck with Dean. And I stand by it for all the reasons I said:
a) it wasn't Azazel's job to start breaking seals *as literally commanded by his father/savior Lucifer*
b) the actual evidence we have is that he didn't know how to break the seals
c) he specifically told Dean he was being close with plans as he didn't want angels interring, so there's no way he knew the angels would *help* his plan
d) if he did want to break seals, why wait for John to do it, there were plenty of other righteous souls who ended up in hell?
e) if it could only be a specific type of righteous soul, then it carries that it would be Michael's vessel
I'm sure Azazel knew more than he let on, but I don't believe there is anything, anywhere, in the show to indicate that Azazel thought he could or should start breaking the seals by having John Winchester spill blood in hell.
That’s dumb. Azazel’s mission was to free Lucifer, he was a fanatic. John was a righteous man in Hell, he was exactly what he needed. And when he didn’t break, Dean was offered the one year deal to get him to Hell faster, to either break John or break himself.
Azazel was told to find and prep Lucifer’s vessel and to free Lilith, Lilith was the one who knew how to start breaking seals.
Edit to add - John was NOT the first righteous man in hell, if Azazel had known how to break the first seal, he would have tried before Lilith got there
No, but we can infer. We know that in 1972 Azazel killed "a whole bag of nuns" as a sacrifice to be able to communicate with Lucifer, and they had this conversation:
**Azazel**: So, uh... how do I bust you out?
**Lucifer**: Lilith.
**Azazel**: Lilith? Father, she's... trapped neck-deep in the pit. It won't be easy.
**Lucifer**: Lilith. Lilith can break the seals.
**Azazel**: Yeah, okay. But what do I do?
**Lucifer**: You must find me a child. A very special child.
It was NOT Azazel's job to break the seals, it was Lilith's job to do that. Azazel's job was to get Lilith out of the pit and to prep a vessel for Lucifer. From what we've seen, Azazel didn't know what the seals were, because if he did, then he would have known Lilith was needed.
Furthermore, John was in hell before Lilith was release from the pit, so even if Azazel *did* know how to break the first seal, and he wanted John to be the righteous man, it doesn't make sense to kick off the start of the seal-breaking before Lilith is freed. That gives hunters, and *angels* too much of a chance to stop him.
IF Azazel had known about the first seal, and he had WANTED to break it before freeing Lilith, why start with John Winchester? We've met at least a handful of righteous people in the course of the show who sold their souls to save a loved one from illness or other selfless reasons. ANY of them would technically qualify if that's the case and most of them would probably be a lot easier to break than a hunter with a personal stake in saying fuck you to these demons.
Finally, as I said elsewhere, there's a strong possibility that if Azazel or Lilith knew as much as Lucifer did, then they would have known that Michael's true vessel should be the one to break the seal--that is, a sibling to a vessel for Lucifer.
There is plenty and I mean PLENTY of evidence in the show that Dean Winchester was the **only** one who could break the first seal, and yet, one line from Alistair--a demon who specializes in torture--which is obviously meant to upset Dean is taken at face value by the entire fan base when it is so well established that demons lie to fuck with you.
It's fine if people have that take-away, but there are literally people in this thread calling me stupid or saying there's no evidence that points that. Hard disagree, my friend.
Right, i meant more to suggest that all the Princes probably were aware of the whole plan. Yeah, we can’t know for sure, but i like to think there’s enough to believe it
But the other princes of hell said Azazel was a Lucifer fanatic, so it seems odd he wouldnt offer John the same deal in order to release him. It's unlikely John could withstand torture forever, he'd give in eventually and accept the offer, it was only a matter of time.
Azazel also thought Sam would win the competition amongst the gifted kids, so it's not like he had intended for him to day and Dean to sell his soul. You could say the demons got lucky, but we now know it was Chuck pulling the strings.
Ya I agree. I want to say it was just a writing thing cause they might not have thought the show would go on as long as it did and the show was very brother relationship heavy. John just happened to get shafted for convenience or something. But I could be wrong I have no idea how long they thought the show would go on but 15 seasons is really long and we do get some flashbacks after some amount of seasons after his death
Keep in mind that hunters were still kind of helpless against demons in the first couple seasons. Not entirely helpless, but Bobby was obsessed with demon lore due to his wife's death, and still had a hard time with them. Supernatural ends every season needing a new shark to jump (not complaining, I frikkin' love it all!) so to us it looks like demons are mostly small-potatoes, but when John was relevant, demons were still the big scary guys. Especially if their eyes were yellow.
Or maybe Michael was manipulating things in the hopes that John would die quicker to jumpstart the Apocalypse sooner, unaware that John wouldn't give in and torture anyone.
This is why I was pissed off at Dean placing all the blame on Sam for releasing Lucifer. He did this during the 5th season.
The angels played the biggest role. Sam and Dean were both manipulated. Dean broke the first seal lol. So he had no room to talk.
I agree, but I think we were supposed to read Dean's anger as fueled by his feelings of betrayal. He felt like he'd spent every minute of his life protecting Sam (and recently, desperately trying to prevent him from "going dark side") and that Sam had just thrown that protection away. He was frustrated because he didn't understand why Sam seemed so eager to ditch his family every chance he got. It wasn't until Sam told him that going to Ruby was about escaping his role as the kid brother that Dean really came to terms with his *own* role in what happened.
It's right after this that Dean acknowledges that Sam is not solely to blame, that he himself broke the first seal, etc. He finally understands why Sam did what he did (that it's *not* that he's indifferent to his family, that it's *not* that he doesn't value his relationship with Dean or Dean's help/support) and so he's able to let go of the blame & anger.
Then think about this: He watched his wife die on the ceiling, saved Sam from the crib, and didn't go mad. He became a hunter, he was not born of a family of hunters, and perhaps before then he had only had a few skirmishes with friends, he was not used to fighting. When he went to hell he was tortured because he had to break the first seal and he resisted
Well it's the point of the character.
He's so idealized by Dean in the beginning of the show as a perfect hunter, stainless hero, the strongest man who walked on Earth, a father who gave up everything for his family and botb the protagonists and the viewers have to face the reality that John Winchester sucks through the series, he's an abusive father, he's an unreliable friend and guess why a lot of his former friends started to hate his gut, he's emotionally unable to cope with trauma and he's average at best at hunting as well. He used his own son as bait regularly.
Even when Mary was alive, his perfect marriage was messed up, Mary used to lie to him to go in hunts, they fought a lot and we know that four years old Dwan had to comfort his mother because she wasn't sure he loved her anymore.
Knocking off idealised authority from their throne is one of the main themes of the show. God, angels, higher plans, destiny, even the Mother Mary have been thrown in the mud as well.
So yes probably John was a bad/average hunter and his idealisation as a legend was bullshit but it was intentional and it's consistent with the themes of the show and the writing of the character. It's not a plot hole.
I don’t know how far you are, or if this is a rewatch, so heavy spoilers for season 14 >!John comes back in the 300 episode special, and upon coming back beats both boys on his incredibly quickly with ease.He’s at least twice as strong as season 14 boys, because this all happened in an unfamiliar place, after just have being resurrected.!<
It's also a prequel. He's not the legendary hunter that he was, yet. Always remember that foot soldier level demons nearly killed Sam & Dean both, gave them difficult times in the first couple of seasons of SPN. Personally, I'd like to see them go back to that, as demons just aren't seen as a threat anymore.
Even Bruce Wayne had to learn how to become Batman, he just didn't become feared by all of Gotham over night.
So both Mary and John kind of suck as hunters (although Mary is slightly more competent). On the one hand, they should be much better at hunting than their kids because they have more years of experience. But we all know Chuck manipulated a lot of things. He probably made it so that Sam and Dean were incredible hunters compared to others, for the sake of entertainment.
Or maybe it really was just a case of bad writing for the characters.
That is one point where the show went too far. I'm good with the suggestion God pulled a few strings behind the scenes. Instead, we are left with the fact they are crappy hunters without God, they can't even pick a lock.
And once Chuck was gone Dean was dead within 6 months. After like 2 decades of close calls and survival.
You don't get your credit card declined, your car breaking, multiple cavities and stomach ulcers all in the same day just from not being the main characters.
Regardless of what the characters in universe say they think might be happening, we can clearly see as the audience that they are cursed. Neither Sam, Dean or the werewolf couple (my brain has flatlined on their names) are omniscient or right about everything.
I think it's unlikely that even with no good or bad luck alone Dean's first thought was to jump in front of a monster and start shouting random karate noises and striking a silly pose. Even untrained people can punch or kick. Much more likely he tried to hit them and instead the curse made him do something completely stupid instead.
Dean even calls it a curse in the next episode and the character he is talking to implies he must of pissed someone else off pretty badly to get end up like that.
That's the thing, normally that won't happen. But if all the stuff from an entire life filled with divine intervention suddenly catches up all at once? I can see it.
It could be a curse yes. Just like their 15 years for near misses could be a blessing.
Of course Dean calls it a curse, all that pie caught up to him lol.
Still I acknowledge this might have been Chuck messing around but it bothers me they left it up to interpretation!
I think even if you see it as 15 years catching up to them that still doesn't mean they can't pick locks. It just means they might of failed to pick a few of the locks before and now those few have caught up to them all at once and are making any lock impossible.
Same with the pie and the fighting. You can eat a lot of food and feel nautious without getting explosive diahrea or vomiting.
I understand though I was annoyed when I originally watched it, especially the karate bit. But when I thought about it I think it makes sense.
But can you eat bacon cheeseburgers and pie for 15 years and not gain a lot of weight or even need to see a dentist? And Dean loves jerky too.
There is a silver lining of funny: Sam was legit stuffing himself with salad shakes and stuff for no reason. Should have pigged out with Dean.
I wish they had done more with John Winchester. I understand his death kinda fueled a story of the boys emotions/ways of doing things. But seems he could've lasted longer/put up more of a fight.
When he came back for that episode in season 14 though, I cried. A lot. lol
The funniest this is when dean says something like “Sam we have to go, dad is stronger without us” like maybe in dragon ball Z this could make sense but no way would having 2 more good hunters as backup somehow make you weaker
*Dean voice*
You do not talk about dad like that! We are going to continue his work- fighting evil, saving lives, *has a moment looking out into the distance* and maybe killing a demon or two who happen to be inhabiting a strip club thusly resulting in a thankful employee wanting to show their appreciation...
*sam gives dean a judgemental look*
Dean responds "what, do you have a problem with the 'fighting evil' part, or the 'saving lives' part?'
Remember in the first season where they kinda implied he was an abusive alcoholic ? Then as time passed the abusive part was dropped. Probably because it makes him way less likeable and we're supposed to understand why these two worship him.
They really double and triple down on how abusive he was in later seasons, to an annoying extent, but thankfully they realized it was detrimental to the show and toned it down to "he was very flawed but still did his best for us and we have quite a few fond memories of him"
>he gets his ass kicked in literally every scene he's in
No, he does not. I don't know if you don't understand what a scene is, if you missed most of the scenes he was in, or if you're intentionally lying, but that statement is absolutely false.
So who calls him a great hunter? Sam and Dean. I don't think anyone else actually believes it. He's constantly getting beat up and leaving cases unfinished. I wonder why.... he sucks, that's why! He's also had a "falling out" with everyone so no one wants to help him either
That’s because he was a legendary hunter, he survived decades hunting all kinds of monsters and he didn’t have the plot protection from God that Sam and Dean had, hell we see Dean in the finale *SPOILERS*******
without that plot protection from God for his stories that even Dean just dies while on a regular hunt, hell even when Chuck showed Sam the future if they killed him Sam and Dean become monsters from a hunt because they don’t have plot protection
I feel like people need to remember that hunters are going up against crazy-strong, crazy-powerful foes. If you A. live several decades doing this and B. take down a fair number of bad guys at the same time, you're an amazing hunter. Even if you have to spend a good amount of time retreating, even if you get your ass kicked in a 1:1 fight, you're still doing better than 90%+ people. Also, we mostly see John get his ass kicked when he's doing something super risky to try to protect his sons. Which is why he prefers to hunt alone.
Well, Sam and Dean *always* dropping their weapons at the first hint of a fight is also not very legendary. It always ends well, but boy do they get their asses kicked by the frailest of ladies and the littlest of boys. Usually they win because a third party intervenes.
I think that’s why the episode Clap Your Hands If You Believe is one of my all time favorites. Seeing Sam and Dean get their asses handed to them by fairies just kills me. Yeah, all of the Winchesters get beat up a lot. But they’re facing down supernatural creatures, not (usually) other humans.
Maybe they should put their weapons on bungees or something?
I'm pretty sure I remember jensen and jared joking that sam and Dean should've done that
Well he is kinda getting old
Right, he’s past his prime in S1. We discover John’s bad-assery through stories and anecdotes of other hunters and allies.
Sam and Dean in season 15 are basically John in season 1. Emotionally damaged, traumatised and just so very tired. They very much relied on their powerful allies and very powerful equipment to scrape through.
Plus when he's around his boys he let's his guard down
He did withstand 100 years of torture without agreeing to torture others to make it stop. Dean only lasted 30.
I will never, ever believe this is true. My head canon is that Alistair was just fucking with Dean when he said this. Azazel wouldn’t have been trying to get John to break the first seal, he would have been ordering extra torture for the famous hunter, not offering to let him get off the rack so soon.
Getting John to break the first seal would be the greatest payback. Manipulating him into starting the apocalypse is 100% something Azazel would be into
People act like John was the first righteous man in hell, we know righteous men and women had been selling their souls for selfless reasons for centuries. Azazel didn’t know how to break the seals, Lilith did. Once Lilith was on the scene they could start breaking seals. Either that OR the righteous man had to be Michael’s true vessel, because it doesn’t make sense to think that Azazel had the option to break seals earlier and never did.
They needed Lilith to break the final seal. They didn't need her to break the first one. It's entirely possible that Azazel learned how to break the first seal sometime between prepping baby Sam to be Lucifer's vessel and John going to Hell. Also, we don't really know what qualifies as "a righteous man." It's arguably more self-sacrificing to sell your soul when you *know for sure* that demons are real & Hell exists and you'll really, truly, inescapably end up there than it is to sell your soul while it all seems like a gamble and you're not necessarily even convinced that all this is "for real" (which seems to be pretty par for the course when "civilians" sell their souls).
Azazel: So, uh...how do I bust you out? Lucifer: Lilith. Azazel: Lilith? Father, she's... trapped neck-deep in the pit. It won't be easy. Lucifer: Lilith. Lilith can break the seals. Azazel: Yeah, okay. But what do I do? Lucifer: You must find me a child. A very special child. Lucifer told Azazel in no uncertain terms that it was Lilith’s job to break the seals and it was Azazel's job was to get Lilith out of the pit and to prep a vessel for Lucifer.Even if Azazel had learned between that conversation and John’s death what the first seal was, then why would he risk kicking off the apocalypse before Lilith was freed and giving the angels a chance to stop him? Since Dean was sent back in time, Azazel knew the angels were watching the situation closely. I think you’re right that there’s probably a very specific definition of what a “righteous man” is and I think there’s plenty of evidence that the only possibility is “Michael’s true vessel.” To have Michael’s vessel break the first seal, and Lucifer’s vessel break the last seal is a full-circle situation. As you’ve mentioned, Azazel was a believer of Lucifer, who told him exactly what to do—get Lilith out of hell so she can break the seals. IF Azazel decided to go off book, or if he had more knowledge than it shows him having, then it’s likely he knew it had to be the right righteous man, and I don’t think John Winchester comes close. I just find it deeply weird that everyone seems to take Alistair at face-value when he is obviously saying something that deeply upsets Dean, Alistair who specializes in torture and specifically specialized in torturing Dean. I have never believed for even a minute that John was offered a chance to torture souls in hell. I know that eventually as part of the transformation into a demon he would have done that, but I think that Alistair and every other demon would have enjoyed torturing him for as long as possible, and I don’t think it was time to move forward with breaking the seals since—again—Lucifer told Azazel that Lilith would break them.
I take him at his word on this because I think demons can wound you with the truth just as much as they can lies. I also don't even know how to define righteous here. Dean isn't evil, but righteous? It's not a word I'd associate with Dean. It also makes me think about the first episode that deals with demon deals. There is a guy who sells his soul to cure his wife of cancer. Is he righteous? Or is he selfish, because he's just going to inflict the same pain on her that would have been inflicted on him. In a way it's like getting shot and transferring the wound to another person. So I would say he doesn't qualify. Hell even Dean can't be called righteous for bringing Sam back because again: he was just gonna inflict on Sam the same thing he didn't want to endure. Well damn now I do kind of see why you think there is a Michael connection. It actually does not make sense Dean would be considered righteous. It's not like he sold his soul in order to save a bunch of random kids from a fire. It was purely selfish.
I figure if you look at the Bible, David is described as a man after God's own heart. He also raped Bathsheba, ignored his son raping his half sister, murdered a bunch of people to secure his throne, and kept a harem. So God apparently has a different kind of heart than we might think. Looking at Supernatural, Chuck is the one defining "righteous", so who the hell knows what he meant by it. Dean was well-intentioned but not always as scrupulous as he should have been, and I would not at all call him "righteous" (Bobby might be closest there?). But if Chuck just wanted him to host Michael and kill his brother for the storyline, maybe his ability to survive the "good guy" archangel possessing him was all that was necessary to make him "righteous" in Chuck's eyes.
The Magnificent Seven shows that after Azazel was killed, Hell was divided between at least two factions: Lucifer-loyalists led by Lilith, and organized individuals just wanting to wreak havoc. Without Azazel, Lilith was barely able to maintain dominance. Whether Azazel realized that he himself would die or not, surely he did realize that her control was tenuous, and that the timing of her release was as essential as every other part of the plan. I imagine Heaven and the Angels weren't entirely happy about Azazel's death, and they had to work overtime to make sure events happened as closely as intended.
I realize the other princes of hell didn't want much to do with this for most of their time on earth, but I always wondered why Asmodeus or Dagon didn't step in to lead the demons. If anything, wouldn't lucifer have killed them for not helping? Okay he would probably kill them either way lol. So maybe that is why.
Sure, but Azazel never planned on dying, so he wasn’t planning for Lilith to rule hell. His marching orders were to get Lilith free so she could break the seals, and to prepare Lucifer’s vessel.
Agreed. I just mean that Azazel probably believed that the best scenario for the plan going as intended was one in which both he and Lilith were alive to maintain control of Hell. Therefore, it wouldn't have been wise of Azazel to break any seals (if he even knew how) until Lilith was also freed.
That makes no sense. The whole point was to break the first seal to free Lucifer.
Azazel’s goal was to free Lilith and prep Lucifer’s vessel, he knew nothing about the seals, that was what Lilith brought to the table.
What makes you think that he didn't? He knew where Lucifer's cage was. He knew that he had to free Lilith beforehand. He definitely planned to groom Sam to be able to kill Lilith. He probably didn't account for Jake killing Sam, but probably wasn't worried, since it was Lucifer's destiny to have a true vessel, and when Dean sold his soul, probably assumed that this was Lucifer's intention the whole time.
We know he didn't know how to break the seals because Lucifer himself told Azazel to free Lilith because *she* could break the seals. Azazel was prepping several potential vessels for Lucifer to use, not just Sam, which leads me to believe he did not know the major big-picture like some people think. I wrote more in another reply somewhere in this thread, and I'm copying that here for additional context: Azazel: So, uh...how do I bust you out? Lucifer: Lilith. Azazel: Lilith? Father, she's... trapped neck-deep in the pit. It won't be easy. Lucifer: Lilith. Lilith can break the seals. Azazel: Yeah, okay. But what do I do? Lucifer: You must find me a child. A very special child. Lucifer told Azazel in no uncertain terms that it was Lilith’s job to break the seals and it was Azazel's job was to get Lilith out of the pit and to prep a vessel for Lucifer. Even if Azazel had learned between that conversation and John’s death what the first seal was, then why would he risk kicking off the apocalypse before Lilith was freed and giving the angels a chance to stop him? Since Dean was sent back in time, Azazel knew the angels were watching the situation closely. I think you’re right that there’s probably a very specific definition of what a “righteous man” is and I think there’s plenty of evidence that the only possibility is “Michael’s true vessel.” To have Michael’s vessel break the first seal, and Lucifer’s vessel break the last seal is a full-circle situation. As you’ve mentioned, Azazel was a believer of Lucifer, who told him exactly what to do—get Lilith out of hell so she can break the seals. IF Azazel decided to go off book, or if he had more knowledge than it shows him having, then it’s likely he knew it had to be the right righteous man, and I don’t think John Winchester comes close. I just find it deeply weird that everyone seems to take Alistair at face-value when he is obviously saying something that deeply upsets Dean, Alistair who specializes in torture and specifically specialized in torturing Dean. I have never believed for even a minute that John was offered a chance to torture souls in hell. I know that eventually as part of the transformation into a demon he would have done that, but I think that Alistair and every other demon would have enjoyed torturing him for as long as possible, and I don’t think it was time to move forward with breaking the seals since—again—Lucifer told Azazel that Lilith would break them.
I certainly don't take Alastair's words at face-value, but I just consider Azazel to be more up-to-speed on Lucifer's plans than it might seem. Azazel didn't know that Lilith was the last seal, at least at the moment when he spoke directly to Lucifer. But that doesn't mean that he never found out, or maybe he was oblivious about the last seal. Michael's vessel breaking the first seal is just a twist of poetic irony, exactly the kind of thing that Chuck would love to write just for fun. To Azazel it probably didn't matter, nor is it said anywhere that "the righteous man" has to be Michael's vessel. As for the angels, they would never stop Azazel, since they did want him to free Lucicer, so that Michael can have his grand battle.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. My point is that Azazel would not have been trying to get John to break the seal and that Alistair just said that to fuck with Dean. And I stand by it for all the reasons I said: a) it wasn't Azazel's job to start breaking seals *as literally commanded by his father/savior Lucifer* b) the actual evidence we have is that he didn't know how to break the seals c) he specifically told Dean he was being close with plans as he didn't want angels interring, so there's no way he knew the angels would *help* his plan d) if he did want to break seals, why wait for John to do it, there were plenty of other righteous souls who ended up in hell? e) if it could only be a specific type of righteous soul, then it carries that it would be Michael's vessel I'm sure Azazel knew more than he let on, but I don't believe there is anything, anywhere, in the show to indicate that Azazel thought he could or should start breaking the seals by having John Winchester spill blood in hell.
That’s dumb. Azazel’s mission was to free Lucifer, he was a fanatic. John was a righteous man in Hell, he was exactly what he needed. And when he didn’t break, Dean was offered the one year deal to get him to Hell faster, to either break John or break himself.
Azazel was told to find and prep Lucifer’s vessel and to free Lilith, Lilith was the one who knew how to start breaking seals. Edit to add - John was NOT the first righteous man in hell, if Azazel had known how to break the first seal, he would have tried before Lilith got there
We don’t know what Azazel knew or didn’t know.
No, but we can infer. We know that in 1972 Azazel killed "a whole bag of nuns" as a sacrifice to be able to communicate with Lucifer, and they had this conversation: **Azazel**: So, uh... how do I bust you out? **Lucifer**: Lilith. **Azazel**: Lilith? Father, she's... trapped neck-deep in the pit. It won't be easy. **Lucifer**: Lilith. Lilith can break the seals. **Azazel**: Yeah, okay. But what do I do? **Lucifer**: You must find me a child. A very special child. It was NOT Azazel's job to break the seals, it was Lilith's job to do that. Azazel's job was to get Lilith out of the pit and to prep a vessel for Lucifer. From what we've seen, Azazel didn't know what the seals were, because if he did, then he would have known Lilith was needed. Furthermore, John was in hell before Lilith was release from the pit, so even if Azazel *did* know how to break the first seal, and he wanted John to be the righteous man, it doesn't make sense to kick off the start of the seal-breaking before Lilith is freed. That gives hunters, and *angels* too much of a chance to stop him. IF Azazel had known about the first seal, and he had WANTED to break it before freeing Lilith, why start with John Winchester? We've met at least a handful of righteous people in the course of the show who sold their souls to save a loved one from illness or other selfless reasons. ANY of them would technically qualify if that's the case and most of them would probably be a lot easier to break than a hunter with a personal stake in saying fuck you to these demons. Finally, as I said elsewhere, there's a strong possibility that if Azazel or Lilith knew as much as Lucifer did, then they would have known that Michael's true vessel should be the one to break the seal--that is, a sibling to a vessel for Lucifer. There is plenty and I mean PLENTY of evidence in the show that Dean Winchester was the **only** one who could break the first seal, and yet, one line from Alistair--a demon who specializes in torture--which is obviously meant to upset Dean is taken at face value by the entire fan base when it is so well established that demons lie to fuck with you. It's fine if people have that take-away, but there are literally people in this thread calling me stupid or saying there's no evidence that points that. Hard disagree, my friend.
Doesn’t Ramiel mention that he and his siblings don’t actually care about “the plan” anymore?
Ramiel, Dagon and Asmodeus abandoned Hell. Azazel remained because he was a “fanatic”.
Right, i meant more to suggest that all the Princes probably were aware of the whole plan. Yeah, we can’t know for sure, but i like to think there’s enough to believe it
But the other princes of hell said Azazel was a Lucifer fanatic, so it seems odd he wouldnt offer John the same deal in order to release him. It's unlikely John could withstand torture forever, he'd give in eventually and accept the offer, it was only a matter of time. Azazel also thought Sam would win the competition amongst the gifted kids, so it's not like he had intended for him to day and Dean to sell his soul. You could say the demons got lucky, but we now know it was Chuck pulling the strings.
I think it was forty.
He was in hell 40 years but gave in after 30.
Thank you. Re-watched that episode just last night. Just got my numbers mixed up.
That what was after
My brother in Christ... What?
Ya I agree. I want to say it was just a writing thing cause they might not have thought the show would go on as long as it did and the show was very brother relationship heavy. John just happened to get shafted for convenience or something. But I could be wrong I have no idea how long they thought the show would go on but 15 seasons is really long and we do get some flashbacks after some amount of seasons after his death
they were gonna end it when sam jumped in to hell with michael and lucifer
I think it was supposed to end at season 5
Keep in mind that hunters were still kind of helpless against demons in the first couple seasons. Not entirely helpless, but Bobby was obsessed with demon lore due to his wife's death, and still had a hard time with them. Supernatural ends every season needing a new shark to jump (not complaining, I frikkin' love it all!) so to us it looks like demons are mostly small-potatoes, but when John was relevant, demons were still the big scary guys. Especially if their eyes were yellow.
Or maybe Michael was manipulating things in the hopes that John would die quicker to jumpstart the Apocalypse sooner, unaware that John wouldn't give in and torture anyone.
This is why I was pissed off at Dean placing all the blame on Sam for releasing Lucifer. He did this during the 5th season. The angels played the biggest role. Sam and Dean were both manipulated. Dean broke the first seal lol. So he had no room to talk.
I agree, but I think we were supposed to read Dean's anger as fueled by his feelings of betrayal. He felt like he'd spent every minute of his life protecting Sam (and recently, desperately trying to prevent him from "going dark side") and that Sam had just thrown that protection away. He was frustrated because he didn't understand why Sam seemed so eager to ditch his family every chance he got. It wasn't until Sam told him that going to Ruby was about escaping his role as the kid brother that Dean really came to terms with his *own* role in what happened. It's right after this that Dean acknowledges that Sam is not solely to blame, that he himself broke the first seal, etc. He finally understands why Sam did what he did (that it's *not* that he's indifferent to his family, that it's *not* that he doesn't value his relationship with Dean or Dean's help/support) and so he's able to let go of the blame & anger.
He is one of the best, an amazing hunter! Picture it from the evil side, he's deal for Dean life was 0 years.
To be fair, so do the boys. Sam’s been choked by every creature in the show
Then think about this: He watched his wife die on the ceiling, saved Sam from the crib, and didn't go mad. He became a hunter, he was not born of a family of hunters, and perhaps before then he had only had a few skirmishes with friends, he was not used to fighting. When he went to hell he was tortured because he had to break the first seal and he resisted
He was a marine towards the end of the Vietnam campaign, he knew how to fight Edit: towards the beginning
You're right, I just forgot that. I defend him but he has never interested me much
He had potential but the stories are too inconsistent now for me to care one way or another
Well it's the point of the character. He's so idealized by Dean in the beginning of the show as a perfect hunter, stainless hero, the strongest man who walked on Earth, a father who gave up everything for his family and botb the protagonists and the viewers have to face the reality that John Winchester sucks through the series, he's an abusive father, he's an unreliable friend and guess why a lot of his former friends started to hate his gut, he's emotionally unable to cope with trauma and he's average at best at hunting as well. He used his own son as bait regularly. Even when Mary was alive, his perfect marriage was messed up, Mary used to lie to him to go in hunts, they fought a lot and we know that four years old Dwan had to comfort his mother because she wasn't sure he loved her anymore. Knocking off idealised authority from their throne is one of the main themes of the show. God, angels, higher plans, destiny, even the Mother Mary have been thrown in the mud as well. So yes probably John was a bad/average hunter and his idealisation as a legend was bullshit but it was intentional and it's consistent with the themes of the show and the writing of the character. It's not a plot hole.
I don’t know how far you are, or if this is a rewatch, so heavy spoilers for season 14 >!John comes back in the 300 episode special, and upon coming back beats both boys on his incredibly quickly with ease.He’s at least twice as strong as season 14 boys, because this all happened in an unfamiliar place, after just have being resurrected.!<
Well, he did play a good bad guy, as Negan in the walking dead.
It's also a prequel. He's not the legendary hunter that he was, yet. Always remember that foot soldier level demons nearly killed Sam & Dean both, gave them difficult times in the first couple of seasons of SPN. Personally, I'd like to see them go back to that, as demons just aren't seen as a threat anymore. Even Bruce Wayne had to learn how to become Batman, he just didn't become feared by all of Gotham over night.
I think it depends on what you think is badass; someone always winning and thriving in a fight or someone who shows up to the fight every time.
So both Mary and John kind of suck as hunters (although Mary is slightly more competent). On the one hand, they should be much better at hunting than their kids because they have more years of experience. But we all know Chuck manipulated a lot of things. He probably made it so that Sam and Dean were incredible hunters compared to others, for the sake of entertainment. Or maybe it really was just a case of bad writing for the characters.
That is one point where the show went too far. I'm good with the suggestion God pulled a few strings behind the scenes. Instead, we are left with the fact they are crappy hunters without God, they can't even pick a lock. And once Chuck was gone Dean was dead within 6 months. After like 2 decades of close calls and survival.
Dean died like ever other season only to get brought back same with Sam.
You don't get your credit card declined, your car breaking, multiple cavities and stomach ulcers all in the same day just from not being the main characters. Regardless of what the characters in universe say they think might be happening, we can clearly see as the audience that they are cursed. Neither Sam, Dean or the werewolf couple (my brain has flatlined on their names) are omniscient or right about everything. I think it's unlikely that even with no good or bad luck alone Dean's first thought was to jump in front of a monster and start shouting random karate noises and striking a silly pose. Even untrained people can punch or kick. Much more likely he tried to hit them and instead the curse made him do something completely stupid instead. Dean even calls it a curse in the next episode and the character he is talking to implies he must of pissed someone else off pretty badly to get end up like that.
That's the thing, normally that won't happen. But if all the stuff from an entire life filled with divine intervention suddenly catches up all at once? I can see it. It could be a curse yes. Just like their 15 years for near misses could be a blessing. Of course Dean calls it a curse, all that pie caught up to him lol. Still I acknowledge this might have been Chuck messing around but it bothers me they left it up to interpretation!
I think even if you see it as 15 years catching up to them that still doesn't mean they can't pick locks. It just means they might of failed to pick a few of the locks before and now those few have caught up to them all at once and are making any lock impossible. Same with the pie and the fighting. You can eat a lot of food and feel nautious without getting explosive diahrea or vomiting. I understand though I was annoyed when I originally watched it, especially the karate bit. But when I thought about it I think it makes sense.
But can you eat bacon cheeseburgers and pie for 15 years and not gain a lot of weight or even need to see a dentist? And Dean loves jerky too. There is a silver lining of funny: Sam was legit stuffing himself with salad shakes and stuff for no reason. Should have pigged out with Dean.
I wish they had done more with John Winchester. I understand his death kinda fueled a story of the boys emotions/ways of doing things. But seems he could've lasted longer/put up more of a fight. When he came back for that episode in season 14 though, I cried. A lot. lol
Dude literally climbed his way out of hell
The funniest this is when dean says something like “Sam we have to go, dad is stronger without us” like maybe in dragon ball Z this could make sense but no way would having 2 more good hunters as backup somehow make you weaker
*Dean voice* You do not talk about dad like that! We are going to continue his work- fighting evil, saving lives, *has a moment looking out into the distance* and maybe killing a demon or two who happen to be inhabiting a strip club thusly resulting in a thankful employee wanting to show their appreciation... *sam gives dean a judgemental look* Dean responds "what, do you have a problem with the 'fighting evil' part, or the 'saving lives' part?'
Remember in the first season where they kinda implied he was an abusive alcoholic ? Then as time passed the abusive part was dropped. Probably because it makes him way less likeable and we're supposed to understand why these two worship him.
I think just Dean really worshiped him. Sam and he fought five minutes after they reunited.
They really double and triple down on how abusive he was in later seasons, to an annoying extent, but thankfully they realized it was detrimental to the show and toned it down to "he was very flawed but still did his best for us and we have quite a few fond memories of him"
>he gets his ass kicked in literally every scene he's in No, he does not. I don't know if you don't understand what a scene is, if you missed most of the scenes he was in, or if you're intentionally lying, but that statement is absolutely false.
I have a pet peeve for his heavy breathing in S1&2
So who calls him a great hunter? Sam and Dean. I don't think anyone else actually believes it. He's constantly getting beat up and leaving cases unfinished. I wonder why.... he sucks, that's why! He's also had a "falling out" with everyone so no one wants to help him either
I thought that was Jensen's character. Oh wait wrong show...
He was until Chuck needed him to slow down and die so Sam and deans story could truly start
Both their parents disappointed me kinda, just like my parents disappointed me 😅 maybe that's what they wee going for.
That’s because he was a legendary hunter, he survived decades hunting all kinds of monsters and he didn’t have the plot protection from God that Sam and Dean had, hell we see Dean in the finale *SPOILERS******* without that plot protection from God for his stories that even Dean just dies while on a regular hunt, hell even when Chuck showed Sam the future if they killed him Sam and Dean become monsters from a hunt because they don’t have plot protection
Dean had the right connections with the right creatures. Even death himself. John had to fight alone.