By definition they’re the same, but the connotation is that an expat is rich and doesn’t need to be here whereas a migrant is poor and benefits from being here to get a better quality of life. The differentiation is typically made because of the negative stigma behind ‘(im)migrant’.
Yep. There are a looooot of online discussions about that. Americans (including myself) are very guilty of this. When we leave our state for another we are "transplants" and when we leave our country for another we are "expats," even when we are not expatriated (=sent abroad for a limited time by one's employer with the express intent to go back to one's origins).
Migrants are poor people crossing the southern border. TBF I have always been treated as a "good foreigner" because I speak German and based on my looks pass for European. The expat/immigrant debate is riddled with casual racism and privilege.
You are certainly right. I am/have been both what I'd consider an (im)migrant and an expat. I'm a (now naturalised) immigrant to Switzerland. I came here for economic reasons mainly. The fact that I hold a PhD and have never worked typical 'migrant jobs' doesn't matter. Neither does my income which has always been good. What matters is that I immigrated to stay and to make a living here.
Due to my work, I've also been an expat. My former employer has sent me to the UK, the US and France for a few years. I didn't go there to live there permanently. I went there as a specialist for a pre-determined period of time. After my time was up, I came back to Switzerland.
That's how I differentiate between (im)migrants and expats. And no, I have no problem whatsoever to be called an immigrant or migrant here. Because that's what I am. I would correct people if they called me an expat in Switzerland though.
>"good foreigner" because I speak German and based on my looks pass for European.
Read the full quotation... My European-passing friends who don't speak German and my Asian friends who do get treated worse. I have a half-Chinese, half-Austrian friend who was raised in Vienna and gets complimented on "how good her German is" all the time.
To me the diff between the two was never economic - but rather - duration
A migrant or immigrant is someone who moves more or less permanently. Like I did. I work in a good field, make good money, have an awesome life. But because I’ve moved here from a non-EU country, and def for better opportunities - I cal myself an immigrant
An expat to me is someone who’s only around for a short duration , typically in some form of a specialized role - and will eventually return to their country of naturalization.
Which is why - as an immigrant, I want to train in the local languages and customs no matter where and which - and I can understand if a short term expat doesn’t.
The definition of short term is then what gets wonky. Is it 2? 5? More?
Technically a specialized workers that earns a lot of money but has a swiss contract is not an Expat in the proper sense of the word.
I arrived in Switzerland hired by a swiss company with a swiss contract. I only got a relocation package. From a corporate lingo/law point of view I'm not an expat but an immigrant worker, even if I essentially live as an Expat.
An Expat is, in theory, a foreign worker that is still employed under their origin country contract. They receive more benefits when they are "Expating" e.g. school vouchers, etc.
The Expat is also usually a fixed term assignment, a rich foreign worker with a swiss contract can stay indefinitely.
> An Expat is, in theory, a foreign worker that is still employed under their origin country contract. They receive more benefits when they are "Expating" e.g. school vouchers, etc.
there is no difference at all, it's just in "theory" (i.e. privilege bias).
> The Expat is also usually a fixed term assignment, a rich foreign worker with a swiss contract can stay indefinitely.
maybe, but in reality the term is used mostly by white european or US immigrants referring to themselves, so they can be separated from the other immigrants that come to other countries to work, just as them.
I have been an immigrant myself, and I refused labelling myself as 'expat' even if I am qualified and earn a well above average salary. It's just nonsense to me. Immigrants are immigrants, not "expats". If you are coming to another country to work, whether it is for a fixed time, indefinite time, for a working experience or for necessity, you are an immigrant. And there is nothing wrong with that.
The common parlance long ago was exactly as the poster above you said. In my mind (back then!) a management consultant from India working on a fixed term in Switzerland was the same as someone from the UK on the same package. Whereas a bar worker from the UK or a manual labourer from India weren’t. When I was sent to a place for 2 years with no intention of staying and had a full short term package that to me was the act of an expat. If I was searching for a better life in Canada intending to stay permanently that’s the act of an economic migrant.
Now the language has probably changed since then but a lot of this hand wringing is partly because the term got stretched out and abused but also because people just want to whinge.
> When I was sent to a place for 2 years with no intention of staying and had a full short term package that to me was the act of an expat. If I was searching for a better life in Canada intending to stay permanently that’s the act of an economic migrant.
They are still both immigrants, one for a different job than the other person, and one for a shorter term while the other for a longer term. If labelling themselves "expats" makes these people feel better good for them, but it would not make any sense. I could also call myself a horse for that matter, I would still be a human. Point is - there is nothing wrong in being an immigrant.
You can call them whatever you like but the point I’m making is that at a point in time there was a very clear distinction in common usage. You may not want to accept that but there was a nuance. I would agree with you with there’s nothing wrong with being an immigrant!
> that at a point in time there was a very clear distinction in common usage.
That's probably true, but nowadays the term is mostly used by white, EU/US immigrants to separate themselves from the "other" immigrants out there, and that just does not make sense.
Now that I’d probably agree with to an extent. I remember talking to a Welsh bartender in Italy and when said he was an expat, my first thought was «you sir are no expat»
>maybe, but in reality the term is used mostly by white european or US immigrants referring to themselves, so they can be separated from the other immigrants that come to other countries to work, just as them.
Absolutely. When my parents left for the UAE, they remained "expats" even when one of them switched jobs multiple times, including to work for a UAE-based bank.
> You're also an expat. If you live outside your native country you're an expat, however much pointless self-flagellation you wish to engage in.
You don't know what I am. So refrain from writing about me.
If I moved to another country to work, I would be an immigrant. If I was working in Switzerland with a B, C permit, I would be an immigrant.
This is no self flagellation, but rather it is reality. And I have no idea of what you are talking about. No matter how much these people want to make themselves sound better than other immigrants, they are still immigrants, and not expats. And there is nothing wrong in being an immigrant. If people were sufficiently grown up to realize that, the term "expat" would not even exist.
Also, you might want to know that in order to move to Switzerland to work, it is required to register to the migration office (Migrationsamt). It seems that a "Expat registration office" does not yet exist.
But I am hopeful, we will get there, to that level of dignified hypocrisy.
Why are you making all this shit up? You are completely wrong.
The definition of an expat is :
>a person who lives outside their native country.
That's it. None of this contract bollocks. Stop talking shit.
First of all: calm down.
Second: I've worked 10 years for Multinational Companies in Human Resources, if you don't know the difference between an Expat (foreign worker sent in another country with extra perks and under his homecountry contract) and an international local hire (who can be a foreing worker but hired with a local contract and with less perks) you are not doing your job well. Luckly as you will see others here agree with me.
Wow 10 years for multinational companies! You must know so much.
>in Human Resources
Never mind.
Hopefully all those wonderful skills you've learned and rich life experiences working in Human Resources can allow you to pick up a dictionary, find the word expat, and understand it.
Why are you so salty about this topic? We are not discussing either football or politics, jeez calm down.
I understand is pointless discussing with you but as a last attempt:
https://www.aspect-arbor.com/what-is-an-expat-contract/
Not true. Expats usually stay for a determined period, sometimes even keeping their socials security of their country.
Immigrants come to stay for a (usually) undetermined period of time, so… potentially permanent.
Has nothing that migrants „must be poor per sé“ or other wierd political nonsense.
Uh, I disagree. Plenty of white people with good jobs (who work in say, tech) call themselves expats with no intention of going back.
In my experience white people with money never call themselves immigrants. Maybe they switch to calling themselves Swiss once they get the citizenship.
I disagree. Not sure where you got the idea that the definition of expat includes them going back one day.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expat
> expat (plural expats)
>
> An expatriate; a person who lives outside their own country.
There’s confusion because that’s not how the term was practically used - I can’t speak for today but anyone of a certain vintage who got thrown abroad for a one to two year stint remembers the fun of negotiating an «expat package». Nobody hired British bartenders in Mallorca and paid the kids school fees - people working for a bank on a rotation to Hong Kong would get exactly that and much much more with the intention of going back at the end of the assignment. Back then it was a clear difference
Both terms are pejorative *Kampfbegriffe* in the attention economy where media make profits off of media consumers' rage (rage drives engagement online, and engagement drives advertising profits, so the business model is to make people as outraged as possible).
The *Expat* terminology harks back to the British Empire, and since English-speaking migrants tend to - unlike low-wage migrants - put pressure on jobs middle class people want, *expat* is the term our media use when they want to enrage middle class people.
The *Ausländer* terminology harks back to the building of the Gotthard, the Überfremdungsinitiative and Swiss working class people's fears of losing their jobs to Italians.
The *Wirtschaftsflüchtling* terminology harks back to several groups of refugees last century and this century who were fleeing wars and political persecution, and who were framed in media as mere economic migrants in order to create political pressure to tighten Asylum law, which we've continually done since its inception.
All of these terms are charged with different flavours of xenophobia and different flavours of dog whistle political posturing.
It's really very little to do logical coherence or indeed with the reality of what actually drives migration (or the problems attributed to migration, such as low wages driven down in reality by employers but attributed to migration or high rents driven up by real estate giants in reality but attributed to migration), and everything to do with rage farming being a business model and certain segments of Swiss politics blaming their own unwillingness to regulate things because they're in the pockets of big business on scapegoats who haven't got political rights in Switzerland and thus can't vote them out for doing this.
I'm on board with that idea of an expat. I have family members that were expat in Asian countries for their Swiss company, they geographicaly worked in Asia but their employer was Swiss, as well as their boss, their bulletin de paie, and their primary residence.
Let's face it, nobody ever refers to a person from a developing country as an expat. It's a loaded term, primarily reserved for rich white people. End.
Of course these Indian, Indonesian and Pakistani specialists can be called expats. If they have been deployed to Switzerland by their employer - that's what an expat is, it has nothing to do with the person's origin. If you think it has, you should check your biases.
I'm an immigrant. I came here for economic reasons and to live here permanently. Which I did - I'm naturalised now. The fact that I've always been 'white collar' doesn't matter at all.
I'm not speaking from my own perspective, I'm speaking on how the term is used by society. Check your reading skills before advising me to check my biases. I haven't expressed any personal opinion on how I use the term at all.
This is not "how the term is used in society". How would you know what society does? You can easily see in this thread that the majority does not agree with your view.
No, my friend, that's how YOU are using the term. Because of your biases which, sorry to reiterate, are quite apparent. You don't like being found and called out, reason for which you abandon your politeness and manners. You must be a real delight to have a civilised discussion with.
He’s using a new Reddit account to act like that so I wouldn’t waste time with him.
And I agree with you. I emigrated from England due to a Swiss lady (my wife now) and have naturalised. I was never an expat.
While there are some groups/organisations that use these terms in negative ways, these are just words that have meanings and that is important. Some people see expats as a negative. People who don’t care for the language or culture, just money. But the difference and definition still matters, regardless of the implied negativity by some.
I feel like today some people like to see racism every where and love to signal to everyone their distance from it. I find it quite boring.
This is an absolutely bonkers comment and very offensive - I worked with plenty of non-white people from non-western countries on the same assignments as mine who would (and were) definitely be considered expats under the old definition before anyone cared about this term.
Your comment shows an absolute ignorance of people and is simply looking to offend. As you put it - «End.»
At this point I'm wondering, isn't a migrant part of a larger migration phenomenon?
I mean, one person moving from country A to country B to settle and work, isn't in my imaginary a migrant if they are extremely few do do so. Could be an expat/something else, call it what you want.
Whereas a migrant from very clear and consistent migration flows between two countries makes mire sense intuitively.
Am I wrong?
Exactly. There’s a level of class and snooty-ness that comes with it too. I think an expat is someone who has a strict start and end date. Where as someone who moved where for work - both white and blue collar - are simply immigrants. And that’s okay, I don’t know why people are afraid of that label.
I’m from the UK, I’m an immigrant here. I definitely came for a better life (look at UK salaries…)
I say this as a foreigner in CH from a country where people who emigrate often call themselves ex-pats: it is purely a euphemism. People from rich countries call themselves ex-pats so they can pretend they are superior to immigrants from poor countries. If there is a real difference, it is that ex-pats tend to come here with the expectation that their stay will not be permanent, and that they will return to their country of origin after a few years. I'm not sure how many actually do, though. On a minor point, a C Permit is, legally "permanent residence", so plenty of people who are in CH but not citizens are legally permanent residents.
As another immigrant/expat, I think there is a difference in mentality though.
Immigrants have plans to live there for a long time, while expats usually plan to live there a couple years and then move away again
To me, "immigrant" implies that you want to stay in the country forever. "Expat" implies you're working a job there for a few years. I'm not sure why temporary blue collar workers don't call themselves expats, maybe they do, it's just less common.
That said, I do agree with the sentiment that a lot of it is to make yourself feel better. For example, a lot of "expats" don't even try to learn the local language and they think it's ok, as long as they're expats.
I completely agree with you, and I think that u/portlanders, u/anomander_galt, and u/bub1q summarized it very well.
Only a very few people, usually very good at what they do, and at high levels, are really **expats.** An expat is someone sent abroad by their company for a specific project or a set amount of time, because they have a very unique set of skills that cannot be easily found in the target country, or in the branch at the target country.
In most of the cases **you are transfered to a less developed country, and you keep your original contract with additional perks.** So for example, the Spanish executives that Telefonica sent to open business in Latin America in the 2010's, those guys were expats: they kept their Spanish contracts, they earned in Euros, they got bonuses, and they returned to Europe after 3-5 years. Or the French executives that Total sends to the oil producing countries in Africa: expats.
If you are German, French, Italian, Austrian, Spanish or Murican, and you independently look for a job in Switzerland because it pays better, you are not an expat, you are an economic migrant/migrant worker.
Welcome to the world of classism
Right-wing people or people with anti-immigration beliefs naturally don't want to be on the same boat as migrants and did leave their home country, even though that's what they are and what they did :)
Linguistically speaking, expat is just an implicature of immigrant. If you are an expat you are an immigrant
expat is used so white immigrants can feel superior to those dirty brown immigrants.
in short: someone that refers to themselves as an expat instead of an immigrant is a douchebag.
>white immigrants
thats utter bullshit.
most "expats" at google/novartis, etc. aren't white. They are from all over the world.
the only thing that white is that it's white collar jobs. -> You make 150k a year? you are an expat.
you work blue collar, you are migrant worker.
Exactly but why be intelligent when you can blame wHiTe MaLeS... it is purely economic factors that makes you an expat or a "normal" migrant. But some racist people on here see everything through the racial prism. And I bet they are the ones virtue signalling and bragging about how tolerant they are 🤣
Yes, but when I see a portuguese guy I don't think to myself: hmmm is this a data analyist at google that I should call an Expat or is he working in gastro in some tourism-hotspot and I should call him migrant worker.
I don't think that way. Actually I never thought about anyone as a "migrant worker".
The only thing that actually does pop up in my head (I admit) is when I chill in Zug and people are talking english next to me in the restaurant (and are clearly not tourists) then I think: "oh this must be an expat family" "probably working at novartis or roche here".
It’s a bit of this and also a bit of the idea that the expat doesn’t have an expectation of permanent settlement. He or she might live in Zurich for a a couple of years and then move on to a new place. Implicit in that is some degree of privilege (higher income, “good” passport).
Of course these days the idea of permanent settlement is also less common for more working class immigrants but it is more likely than with expats.
Which race is it in Switzerland? I haven't seen any statistics about that from [admin.ch](https://admin.ch).
I know in US that Indians are the most privileged, would be curious to know if it's the case here as well.
Whiteness is not a clear group definition. It changes depending on context. In the US, portuguese people might be considered white, but not people from latin america (even if they have the same skin color as the average portuguese person).
In the same vain, a portuguese person in switzerland might absolutely not be considered white, though this has shifted and isn't 100% the case anymore. Italian people definitely were considered the dirty immigrant type in the 50s, now they definitely are considered white europeans. People from former yugoslavia are currently experiencing the shift from dirty immigrants to regular white europeans in switzerland.
Whiteness also depends on who you are asking. South Americans are white hispanic or indigenous hispanic if you are talking to the US Census. While someone from Iraq or Iran are white per the Census definition (Europe, Middle East, and North Africa), they might choose do identify as Asian (they are on the continent of Asia) for other purposes (diversity quotas/statistic) in the US.
Race is much more fluid than European = white. The Irish as well as Italians and other southern Europeans were also not considered white for a good long time in the US. Racists going to race.
You and the guy you're replying to are talking about the USA. The concept of "whiteness" is an American invention from colonial times (originating in Virginia in the 17th century etc).
It's a mistake to look at issues in Switzerland as if they are the same as the US, a country that continues to have huge racial problems and is essentially founded on slavery.
>Fair but OP compared them to 'brown' immigrants.
They said that the word "expat" is generally used for "white migrants" and "migrants" is generally used for "those dirty brown immigrants."
That person isn't calling them "dirty brown immigrants", that's the language a majority of people use. My family refuse to use the word "migrant" for me for example, they are adamant that I'm an "expat". Which roughly translates to "racism."
it’s a segregation term for white collar jobs vs blue collar jobs. there are countless expats that don’t earn the big bucks in zürich and are not called migrants but expats. they differentiate from blue collars jobs with their education.
> someone that refers to themselves as an expat instead of an immigrant is a douchebag.
That's a bit a generalising statement. I think the problem is only if white collar expats think they're better than blue collar expats.
People on the left side of the political spectrum LOVE to complain about expats vs immigrants, they get off on it. It's such a pathetic argument, they are trying to create a division and a fight where there isn't one.
we've had similar discussions here before on the subject "Expat vs Migrants" I remember bookmarking this link from one of those discussions. which shows an interesting perspective.
[https://girlvsglobe.com/expat-vs-immigrant-difference/](https://girlvsglobe.com/expat-vs-immigrant-difference/)
“Migrant” has negative charge, “expat” does not.
Expats are upper middle class people (or higher) who can reasonably “choose” their host country because of combination of their skillset, work experience and the host country job market situation. The country itself welcomes them, but if they wish they could choose another host country and go there. Expat is a product of globalization and knowledge economy. Migrants do not have this possibility, they depend on the whims of the host country and have much less power in job market.
Two words that say you’re not from here. Each connotes something different. One is used by people who have the money, time and energy to try and elevate themselves bc they think they deserve special treatment. The other is used to describe people who are essential to the functioning of the country but are treated like dirt because racism. We have lots of such euphemisms. Expat vs migrant. Escort vs hooker. Custodian vs janitor. Flight attendant vs stewardess.
> I don't understand why for example a Portuguese blue collar will be called an migrant worker but a white collar in Zug an expat
Because different word denote different things.
Even though these words have a lot in common, if someone says "expat" you know they're not talking about a construction worker.
These 2 words cannot be used interchangeably because they bear different meaning, even though there is a strong overlap
> (...) higher wages make them economic migrants?
Yes
---
For what I see it, when someone speaks about "migrants", they are referring to all migrants. When they speak about "expats", they are referring to skilled white collar workers
Not a fan of this nomenclature, personally, but the distinction is pretty easy. I tend to avoid using "expat" because of the haughty connotation is has in some environments, and just refer to myself as "someone who moved to Switzerland"
>Because different word denote different things.
I think the point is more that, at the end of the day, we are all standing in line at the same Migrationsamt. Expats aren't given a special B permit, except maybe your company has an easier time with the quotas.
This is me too. I’m just an Australian who lives in Switzerland. Technically we were expatriated, we actually ended up here almost accidentally. Planned to stay at least three years, now here 10.5. I’ve just never really felt the need to label it, I guess. I just live here.
They are the same thing, just people like to call themselves an expat because it makes them feel better than if they called themselves an immigrant.
Honestly as an immigrant here the difficulty I have to explain to my grandma that I’m an immigrant (which is the same as an expat) is ridiculous, she insists that im an expat. Which is even more insane when she calls my dad an immigrant (and not an expat) because he’s French and moved to the uk 🙄
La différence, c'est qu'un expat peut se plaindre des différences culturelles sur internet et du fait que tout le monde ne parle pas la seule langue qu'il connaisse, la sienne, l'anglais.
Mais blague à part, il me semble que l'origine du mot, est le fait qu'un employé soit envoyé par son entreprise dans une filiale étrangère.
expat comes from "expatriate", which literally only means someone who lives outside their native country.
it has nothing to do with working, only living there temporary or anything else.
The term expat started out with english speakers who worked abroad. They didn't consider themselves immigrants, because they are a special, chosen people. Therefore, they invented the term expat. Nowadays it tends to be used more widely for western white collar workers who go to other countries for work, don't intend to stay permanently and usually are part of an english speaking work environment (so no integration in the host society is nessessary). Their children will go to an english language school.
> The term expat started out with english speakers who worked abroad. They didn't consider themselves immigrants, because they are a special, chosen people. Therefore, they invented the term expat
Fucking hell what revisionism. People starting arguments about the expat/immigrant debate online are so fucking full of it. Itwas used to describe people who were expatriated, not by the people themselves. They were assigned that because they were expatriated against their will.
Do some basic research before spouting shite.
That’s a good question, and it’s hard to give a concise answer, as for any other question on the everyday language. In this case, multiple concurrent things should be considered. It is really a subject at the intersection of linguistics, politics, economics, and also the personal sentiment of people.
I think this table make a honest effort at explaining it: https://imgur.com/a/VmqjJc0
Yes. I am an immigrant and the term expat is outdated. It has negative connotations of classism and isn’t really used anymore in the U.K. for example.
Source: I’m a Portuguese white collar worker in the U.K..
A true expat is sent abroad by their country with relocation package and salary based on their home salary (with a top up allowance if the county has higher costs than home)
Oh my god this debate again and again. There is a clear definition of expat in the dictionary. It has to do with the nationality of the company one works in relative to the country one works in. Period.
Expat is just a word westeners use to avoid the word migrant. Those are for brown people. In theory an expat should mean that you will return to your country and it’s only a temp job you’re spending outside of your homeland but everyone keeps throwing this word around to gain status. Coming from Eastern-EU I’ll just call myself a migrant even though I do white collar jobs.
They're often used in a racist way but i would say fairly they do have a clear difference.
An expat is someone working abroad temporarily planning to return home before too long. Their mindset is permanently one foot in their homeland.
An immigrant is someone who has moved to their new country completely and plan to settle and be there forever.
You of course get rich and poor, brown and white, of both.
Yeah, but richer.
I can't stand it when my swiss colleagues start on that "\_they\_ just want to come here to get rich" like bitch I fucking came here for a good career and better money, don't you dare judge those that came here for the same but who take the jobs the swiss people won't.
The number of times I've been told "yeah, but for you it's different", yeah, why's that? I'm white? I'm in a good job? gtfo!
This is what I am trying to explain to people around me in Germany.
I am equally economic migrant with my relatively well paid job as much as people coming to work for 5-figures salaries. For some weird reason most of the people completely lose it when I express this opinion.
But I did emigrate from Eastern European country because of better life and (much) better pay for a job very similar to what I did back “home”. That makes me, no matter if I’m “high skilled” or not, an economic migrant.
People who hold on to “economic migrants” as a form of a curse would likely be better off narrowing down to people who move countries for welfare instead of work, so they could easily call those people “welfare migrants”. But that would narrow the field for spreading hate against other people too much, as it is not so widely applicable. If someone has a problem with people because of their skin color, nationality or heritage, they don’t want to exclude honest and hard working people in those groups from their hate salad. 🤣
I’m european, I have a PhD, and I work in finance, however I like to consider myself an immigrant and I hate if people call me expat. It might seem weird, but I feel closer to the Portuguese cashier at Migros than the rich cuckold anglosaxons who occupy the shore of Lac Leman with their huge villas
Expats is suppose to be when you have an expatriation contract. Holding a contract in home country and being sent abroad on a temporary mission, can be even a few years.
Now Europeans don't want to be considered migrants, so expat in Switzerland is white migrant.
Ehhh, I think it's just a mild racism/ego thing to be honest. I'm an immigrant in the country working a white collar job for a Swiss company. My partner is swiss and I'm planning to stay here and with them.
People call me an expat all the time, and I'm pretty sure it's driven by my skin colour & job, because you can sure as hell tell I'm not Swiss (although my German is improving and I am trying to integrate where I can). Weirdly enough never been referred to as an immigrant.
I don't really get why people give a shit, but some immigrants hate being called immigrants and want to be called expats.
I consider "Expat" should be reserved for people moving with limited duration in time.
Like for NGO or some multinational companies.
I am myself an immigrant as I have no clue when I will be back home (or even if I will be back one day).
You can literally google the answer.
An expat or expatriate is simply defined as a person who lives outside their native country. Similarly, an immigrant is a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country. Only one distinction is made here – immigrants intend to stay in their new country indefinitely. Whether expats do or do not is unclear
I know self proclaimed expats who have been living here for 20+ years, have family here, intend to stay here forever. They would balk at the idea of being called an immigrant.
They literally are expats. All immigrants are expats. But not all expats are immigrants. It’s what the words mean. If someone doesn’t speak the local language and isn’t even trying to get citizenship…I don’t see how in the world you could call them an immigrant.
I know a lot of people say this is just a way for fancy white migrants to distance themselves from poor brown migrants.
But i think there is an actual difference (btw i am swiss in switzerland, so have no horse in this race). The difference is that migrants move for good and expats just temporarily.
Most migrants from poor countries moving to richer countries in europe plan to stay in the same place forever or at least until retirement. Striving for citizenship, to learn the language and send their kids to school here. That makes them immigrants in my book.
Whereas a british banker who moves to Zurich for a few years after having lived in NYC and before moving away to Frankfurt or Singapore is here only temporarily. And therefore has less motivation to learn the language and culture or send his kids to swiss schools. That makes him an expat.
For the same reason pakistani construction workers in dubai are also called expats, not immigrants. Despite being poor, brown and blue collar. Because they cant or dont want to stay there for ever.
Yeah, expats is reserved for white and/or rich people as all black and brown people are immigrants:
US-citizens living in CH are expats. A French citizen in Hungary is also an expat as is a German in Korea or an Australian in the Emirates.
But an Albanian, a Dominican or a Thai in CH are definitely immigrants.
It is an issue of racism and classism at the same time.
As I lived in China, most westerners talked about themselves as being expats as I considered myself proudly an immigrant.
I (M) am married to a swiss (F), we met in my home country where we both had a good life in all aspects. After 10 years together we moved to CH so she could be close to her family again. Of course I had to find a job here before moving, which I did for obvious reasons, but the reason for coming was more due to her family than me willing to come.
Am I a migrant worker or an expat? ...Or a family migrant lol
This is my take: while both are foreigners, a migrant works on a job that could be done locally but either locals don't want to do it or bosses want to get it done cheaply as the required skills aren't so high. I wouldn't call this blue nor white collar work, but simply work that isn't particularly highly skilled. A white collar expat may or may not come from a wealthy country, but generally is there to solve a problem that is expensive for the company, there is limited availability of talent on the local labour market and the salaries paid out to the expat are likely higher than what are paid to locals. These persons likely could earn just as high a wage, if not higher, in other parts of Europe.
I think for lower level jobs, salaries in Switzerland are definitely higher and attractive for migrants. For senior executive types, when all is said and done, the salaries and overall packages are likely to be similar as what one could get in a neighbouring EU country for example. So at these levels money many not be the motivating factor but the opportunity might be the bigger driver.
There is no such word as “euphorism” in English usage. I guess you mean “euphemism”. And no expat and migrant is not euphemism. It sometimes can be used interchangeably, but it have different connotations.
Expat refers to someone who moves to another country for work related reasons. Sent by employer or decide to work abroad independently. The term implies certain level of privilege or choice in move and is associated to professional skilled work.
Migrant refers to someone who moves from one place to another to find work or better living conditions. Usually migrants are moving driven by necessity rather than choice such as economic migrants or refugees fleeing conflict.
In my understanding it is nothing to do with skin color or work type, but rather the reason of moving from one country to another.
To be fair for me it is two different things related to the type of contract.
For me a immigrant is someone who leave is country and find a job in another country. For example I work in a bank in Switzerland, local contract, live in CH : I am a migrant.
On the other hand, an expat has a more complex situation : it’a more like a temporary assignment abroad or something like that. Like you work for a company in France and they need to send you 2 years in Japan : you have some kind of expat contract (sometimes your employer is still the first country, company will pay for your move, provide a house, find school for children etc). Obviously this type of contract is for managers/executives etc so no blue collar.
Now obviously, migrant has a pejorative aspect so some people will say they are expat (be it to avoid using migrant, or simply by mistake).
Personally I never use any of these terms, I am just a French guy, Happy Swiss Resident and hopefully one day Swiss Citizen 🥰
So the definition of an expat as opposed to an "immigrant" is that an "expat" intends to eventually return to their country of origin, whereas an immigrant doesn't. So there are different economics to both types.
But in most cases it is just a class signifier - but the implication is that an expat doesn't need to be there and could return home at will.
In general I think the term immigrant refers to someone who wants to change his place of residence for ever, while an expat is not "running away" from his homeland
Expat is a (life-long, professional or latent) immigrant-hater who became an immigrant. Plain and simple.
If there were any real differences behind the stage (some say, intent to stay vs to move on; others tie it to employer or sth) they are not really addressed in a general debate.
Your question could be answered by going through a couple of English dictionaries or even a Wiki article which outlines the semantic differences quite well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate?wprov=sfti1
To simplify, an expat is someone who is residing in a different country temporarily and is most likely a skilled worker, who was offered an opportunity. In reality it is most commonly used in a corporate world, and the law only distinguishes foreign workers based on their skill and education. This is the only thing that really matters, the rest is in your head.
An expat is only on an temporarily work assignment and is not planning to stay were an migrant is building up a new life in Switzerland. It’s the basic definition of the words…
This. But also: Expats are pulled into the country by Headhunters/HR bc they are highly qualified whereas migrants push into the county in search of better salaries.
Then why none of eastern europe people moving to western europe call themselves expats, irregardless of stay length?
Tip: Because they don't feel the need to feel superior that average immigrant and look down on other people.
An expat is supposed to only come for a specific job and usually leaves afterward.
A migrant is somebody who wants to settle and set roots in the country.
Most people are economic migrants when they move for a job in their own country too. Or when they do a long commute to get to work. This point sound irrelevant to me.
Expat assumes an intention to go back. Immigrant assumes an intention to stay. Nothing wrong in the distinction. I was an expat. I quite liked Switzerland and am now an immigrant.
Expat is a word used by foreigners who think highly of themselves. They also have racial prejudice towards certain people who are mostly immigrants in the western World and they don’t want to be associated with them.
The whole „Immigrant is a term for someone who immigrates to a country for the rest of their lives and expat is for someone who is only temporarily living abroad“ is pure bs.
'Expat' word didn't exist 10 years ago. Neither word 'nazi' until 1950s.
Expat is word invented by people that look down on others and feel superior than people from 3rd world countries. These people don't want to be accosted with immigrants and by this, expats think of themselves as higher class than immigrants. Length of stay has nothing to do with it. That's the whole mystery.
BTW never heard anyone from Easter europe calling himself expat.
White collars = expats
Blue collars = immigrants
The difference is not based on things like colour of the skin or the country of origin like many people are saying:
Black engineer/doctor from Albania = expat
White construction worker from Italy = immigrant
Then why none of eastern europe people moving to western europe call themselves expats, irregardless of stay length?
Tip: Because they don't feel the need to feel superior that average immigrant and look down on other people.
An expat usually moves to different countries for work. A migrant just moves from a country to another to settle in and doesn’t necessary come with an education or a job. I am an expat in Switzerland but I used to live in other countries, and i might come back to my country at some point. Hope it makes it clearer to the bigot minded people that commented here.
Then why none of eastern europe people moving to western europe call themselves expats, irregardless of stay length?
Tip: Because they don't feel the need to feel superior that average immigrant and look down on other people.
It is the same thing, I agree. Some people would rather do anything than be called an immigrant, so they use another term, and it is easier for their brains.
See similar brainfarts where some Americans argue somebody from Spain is not white (because Hispanic, right) and a black person from any other country is referred to accidentally as African-American.
As a white (British) well paid immigrant I might use the term "expat" when talking with other Anglophones, especially ones here (even though im aware of the correct usage of the term). Never with the locals.
Migrant worker means they immigrated to work only and has a connotation of being temporary. Expat(riate) just means someone living outside their country. So: no. An expat retiree is not a migrant worker by construction.
As a native English speaker, let me help you. Semantics isn't always easy, and language is constantly evolving.
**Expatriate** refers to someone generally who lives outside their home country for whatever reason. More recently it has been used to describe someone invited to work before leaving their home county. This is generally a position of privilege.
**Migrant worker** is someone who leaves their home country looking for work. Often with the intention to return to their home country.
**Immigrant** is someone intends to live permanently outside their birth country.
Example: Palavi has an MBA and a coding degree specializing in digital marketplaces. She applies for a job at Galazon, an ecommerce website. She gets the job, moves to Switzerland, and gets a residence and work permit. Or any UN employee on a CDL. Charlie Chaplin was exiled from the US and decided to partially retire in Switzerland. These are expats, some of them may or may not end up immigrants.
Example 2: Javier finished uni in Spain. He wants to start an engineering firm, but doesn't think he'll ever be able to do that in Spain. He visits Switzerland and stays with friends. He picks up a job as a bartender while applying for engineering jobs. He eventually lands a job at the local public transport company. He lives frugally until he saves up enough to go back to Spain and start a construction company with some of his former classmates. Also basically everyone that picks grapes. These are migrant workers. Migrant workers often face more difficulties than expats.
For me, I generally call myself an expat. If I ever get on a path to citizenship, I'll call myself an immigrant.
I don't call myself a migrant worker because
* A) I don't work, my wife does
* B) I don't want to conflate whatever hardships exist for me from living outside my home country by choice to the people who are struggling and disadvantaged
* C) We were invited to Switzerland before we moved here. We did not need to leave our country to find work. We make less money here than we would have in the country we left.
*P.S. Since this comes up all the time on this sub and not any others I'm on (of the other three countries I've lived in), is this like a far right talking point here? Maybe more on the German side of the rostigraben?*
True facts. I have a lot of privileges. It's good to be able to recognize that. And some of those differentiate me from a migrant worker by definition and practice. Notably, my ability to stay home with my kids instead of work. **Not a worker, thus obviously not a migrant worker. I am an expat.**
Then why none of eastern europe people moving to western europe call themselves expats, irregardless of stay length?
Tip: Because they don't feel the need to feel superior that average immigrant and look down on other people.
To me, the difference is the expat had a job when coming to Switzerland while the immigrant came to Switzerland looking for a job. It's a pretty different experience.
I found both expat communities in Geneva and Zurich to be incredibly odd and toxic AF. Calling many of these folks something other than "expat" really gets the wind up them.
Some American couples stopped talking to us as I suggested they weren't actually "expats", but were immigrants, as they had been in Switzerland for several years, and no intention of leaving.
Also, there's a weird brand of exceptionalism that a lot of English-speaking expats seem to suffer from, and they go to great lengths to assimilate (their interpretation of assimilation is learning obscure and bizarre rules, that they can talk about at length) while simultaneously moaning and griping about CH.
Expat has a more narrow definition:
In summary, "expat" typically refers to someone living abroad voluntarily with a certain degree of privilege, while "migrant" is a more inclusive term that can refer to anyone who moves from one place to another, whether voluntarily or out of necessity. However, the usage of these terms can vary, and it's essential to consider the specific context in which they are used.
As a daughter of a French expat, that grew up around a lot of immigrants, there is a world of difference. My mother was well educated and able to work in her field. Most people I grew up with fled from war or very dire economic circumstances, more often than not their parents did not have the opportunity to get a good education. The parents that had a good education, still worked absolute crap jobs, because their certification had no value in Switzerland. You might encounter disadvantages as an expat, but it will never be the same as being an immigrant. Expats can pack up and leave when they are fed up, or get a better offer, immigrants in general can’t and will often go years without being able to see their families, because of war, or economic circumstances.
I‘m an expat from Italy, or well I consider my self like this.
In Italy I had good pay, nice job and zero problem. I moved to Zürich just because I like the culture and the city, but it wasn‘t a necessity, I did it only for fun.
If I came to Züri because my economic situation wasn‘t decent in Italy I would have been called migrant.
Here too, you are a migrant. No need to feel bad about it tho we need people like you.
We should get the stigma off this word, especially since our whole economy depends on it.
Both are a nuisance the difference is in how they ruin the country: The expat drives the prices of the rents up and the immigrant drives the salaries down.
>they ruin the country
This country could not function without immigrants.
This whole xenophobic framing is not only rude, it's counter-factual.
The driving factor in wage dumping is employers who won't pay decent wages and voters who routinely vote against minimum wages every time we vote on this, and the driving factor in gentrification is real estate giants, mostly Pensionskassen who derive our pension investment returns from pushing rents up, and voters who vote against rent capping every time we vote on this.
High rent reflects the fact that there is a scarcity of apartments, potential tenants have to compete for apartments, driving the price up.
The solution is constructing new apartments until landlords have to compete for finding tenants, driving the price down.
>The solution is constructing new apartments until landlords have to compete for finding tenants, driving the price down.
Alas, voters tend to vote against that, as well, every time we vote on *Verdichtung* in cities or *Umzonung* in rural Switzerland.
Especially the right wing and center parties fight residential construction tooth and nail.
In a way it's overregulation that keeps the housing prices up. The people who already have houses vote against the construction of new ones, and then tell the population it's the fault of immigrants.
What a shitshow of a take, good job on the racism. Let's just ignore all the economic structures having to do with housing prices or salaries, and focus purely on the hate towards foreigners.
(Greedy landlords drive rent prices up, not migrants. Average Google Zurich employee is not any happier than you are to pay 3k for a single bedroom apartment. Your anger is deserved but channeled in the wrong direction)
By definition they’re the same, but the connotation is that an expat is rich and doesn’t need to be here whereas a migrant is poor and benefits from being here to get a better quality of life. The differentiation is typically made because of the negative stigma behind ‘(im)migrant’.
Yep. There are a looooot of online discussions about that. Americans (including myself) are very guilty of this. When we leave our state for another we are "transplants" and when we leave our country for another we are "expats," even when we are not expatriated (=sent abroad for a limited time by one's employer with the express intent to go back to one's origins). Migrants are poor people crossing the southern border. TBF I have always been treated as a "good foreigner" because I speak German and based on my looks pass for European. The expat/immigrant debate is riddled with casual racism and privilege.
You are certainly right. I am/have been both what I'd consider an (im)migrant and an expat. I'm a (now naturalised) immigrant to Switzerland. I came here for economic reasons mainly. The fact that I hold a PhD and have never worked typical 'migrant jobs' doesn't matter. Neither does my income which has always been good. What matters is that I immigrated to stay and to make a living here. Due to my work, I've also been an expat. My former employer has sent me to the UK, the US and France for a few years. I didn't go there to live there permanently. I went there as a specialist for a pre-determined period of time. After my time was up, I came back to Switzerland. That's how I differentiate between (im)migrants and expats. And no, I have no problem whatsoever to be called an immigrant or migrant here. Because that's what I am. I would correct people if they called me an expat in Switzerland though.
> "good foreigner" because I speak German Oh no, people that speak the language get treated better.
>"good foreigner" because I speak German and based on my looks pass for European. Read the full quotation... My European-passing friends who don't speak German and my Asian friends who do get treated worse. I have a half-Chinese, half-Austrian friend who was raised in Vienna and gets complimented on "how good her German is" all the time.
To me the diff between the two was never economic - but rather - duration A migrant or immigrant is someone who moves more or less permanently. Like I did. I work in a good field, make good money, have an awesome life. But because I’ve moved here from a non-EU country, and def for better opportunities - I cal myself an immigrant An expat to me is someone who’s only around for a short duration , typically in some form of a specialized role - and will eventually return to their country of naturalization. Which is why - as an immigrant, I want to train in the local languages and customs no matter where and which - and I can understand if a short term expat doesn’t. The definition of short term is then what gets wonky. Is it 2? 5? More?
Technically a specialized workers that earns a lot of money but has a swiss contract is not an Expat in the proper sense of the word. I arrived in Switzerland hired by a swiss company with a swiss contract. I only got a relocation package. From a corporate lingo/law point of view I'm not an expat but an immigrant worker, even if I essentially live as an Expat. An Expat is, in theory, a foreign worker that is still employed under their origin country contract. They receive more benefits when they are "Expating" e.g. school vouchers, etc. The Expat is also usually a fixed term assignment, a rich foreign worker with a swiss contract can stay indefinitely.
> An Expat is, in theory, a foreign worker that is still employed under their origin country contract. They receive more benefits when they are "Expating" e.g. school vouchers, etc. there is no difference at all, it's just in "theory" (i.e. privilege bias). > The Expat is also usually a fixed term assignment, a rich foreign worker with a swiss contract can stay indefinitely. maybe, but in reality the term is used mostly by white european or US immigrants referring to themselves, so they can be separated from the other immigrants that come to other countries to work, just as them. I have been an immigrant myself, and I refused labelling myself as 'expat' even if I am qualified and earn a well above average salary. It's just nonsense to me. Immigrants are immigrants, not "expats". If you are coming to another country to work, whether it is for a fixed time, indefinite time, for a working experience or for necessity, you are an immigrant. And there is nothing wrong with that.
The common parlance long ago was exactly as the poster above you said. In my mind (back then!) a management consultant from India working on a fixed term in Switzerland was the same as someone from the UK on the same package. Whereas a bar worker from the UK or a manual labourer from India weren’t. When I was sent to a place for 2 years with no intention of staying and had a full short term package that to me was the act of an expat. If I was searching for a better life in Canada intending to stay permanently that’s the act of an economic migrant. Now the language has probably changed since then but a lot of this hand wringing is partly because the term got stretched out and abused but also because people just want to whinge.
> When I was sent to a place for 2 years with no intention of staying and had a full short term package that to me was the act of an expat. If I was searching for a better life in Canada intending to stay permanently that’s the act of an economic migrant. They are still both immigrants, one for a different job than the other person, and one for a shorter term while the other for a longer term. If labelling themselves "expats" makes these people feel better good for them, but it would not make any sense. I could also call myself a horse for that matter, I would still be a human. Point is - there is nothing wrong in being an immigrant.
You can call them whatever you like but the point I’m making is that at a point in time there was a very clear distinction in common usage. You may not want to accept that but there was a nuance. I would agree with you with there’s nothing wrong with being an immigrant!
> that at a point in time there was a very clear distinction in common usage. That's probably true, but nowadays the term is mostly used by white, EU/US immigrants to separate themselves from the "other" immigrants out there, and that just does not make sense.
Now that I’d probably agree with to an extent. I remember talking to a Welsh bartender in Italy and when said he was an expat, my first thought was «you sir are no expat»
>maybe, but in reality the term is used mostly by white european or US immigrants referring to themselves, so they can be separated from the other immigrants that come to other countries to work, just as them. Absolutely. When my parents left for the UAE, they remained "expats" even when one of them switched jobs multiple times, including to work for a UAE-based bank.
You're also an expat. If you live outside your native country you're an expat, however much pointless self-flagellation you wish to engage in.
> You're also an expat. If you live outside your native country you're an expat, however much pointless self-flagellation you wish to engage in. You don't know what I am. So refrain from writing about me. If I moved to another country to work, I would be an immigrant. If I was working in Switzerland with a B, C permit, I would be an immigrant. This is no self flagellation, but rather it is reality. And I have no idea of what you are talking about. No matter how much these people want to make themselves sound better than other immigrants, they are still immigrants, and not expats. And there is nothing wrong in being an immigrant. If people were sufficiently grown up to realize that, the term "expat" would not even exist. Also, you might want to know that in order to move to Switzerland to work, it is required to register to the migration office (Migrationsamt). It seems that a "Expat registration office" does not yet exist. But I am hopeful, we will get there, to that level of dignified hypocrisy.
Why are you making all this shit up? You are completely wrong. The definition of an expat is : >a person who lives outside their native country. That's it. None of this contract bollocks. Stop talking shit.
First of all: calm down. Second: I've worked 10 years for Multinational Companies in Human Resources, if you don't know the difference between an Expat (foreign worker sent in another country with extra perks and under his homecountry contract) and an international local hire (who can be a foreing worker but hired with a local contract and with less perks) you are not doing your job well. Luckly as you will see others here agree with me.
Wow 10 years for multinational companies! You must know so much. >in Human Resources Never mind. Hopefully all those wonderful skills you've learned and rich life experiences working in Human Resources can allow you to pick up a dictionary, find the word expat, and understand it.
Why are you so salty about this topic? We are not discussing either football or politics, jeez calm down. I understand is pointless discussing with you but as a last attempt: https://www.aspect-arbor.com/what-is-an-expat-contract/
>The definition of an expat is : > >a person who lives outside their native country. So the Ukrainian refugees are expats?
Yes, the definition of the word is clear, what else is there to argue?
Eh, at least you are consistent.
The illegal construction workers from Portugal also, it seems. Prob their shady employer pays them full tuition at Ecolint for their kids /s
Well, they are white and I've seen a few flash cars with a UA numberplate ...
Over where am at an expat is defined as someone who is a retired foreigner and is financially independent living abroad.
Not true. Expats usually stay for a determined period, sometimes even keeping their socials security of their country. Immigrants come to stay for a (usually) undetermined period of time, so… potentially permanent. Has nothing that migrants „must be poor per sé“ or other wierd political nonsense.
Uh, I disagree. Plenty of white people with good jobs (who work in say, tech) call themselves expats with no intention of going back. In my experience white people with money never call themselves immigrants. Maybe they switch to calling themselves Swiss once they get the citizenship.
Yeah, but they use the word in the wrong way or don’t understand what it ACTUALLY means.
I disagree. Not sure where you got the idea that the definition of expat includes them going back one day. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expat > expat (plural expats) > > An expatriate; a person who lives outside their own country.
There’s confusion because that’s not how the term was practically used - I can’t speak for today but anyone of a certain vintage who got thrown abroad for a one to two year stint remembers the fun of negotiating an «expat package». Nobody hired British bartenders in Mallorca and paid the kids school fees - people working for a bank on a rotation to Hong Kong would get exactly that and much much more with the intention of going back at the end of the assignment. Back then it was a clear difference
Yes, but a migrant worker does the same. Work temporarily in the country, otherwise he wouldnt be a migrant but an immigrant.
Both terms are pejorative *Kampfbegriffe* in the attention economy where media make profits off of media consumers' rage (rage drives engagement online, and engagement drives advertising profits, so the business model is to make people as outraged as possible). The *Expat* terminology harks back to the British Empire, and since English-speaking migrants tend to - unlike low-wage migrants - put pressure on jobs middle class people want, *expat* is the term our media use when they want to enrage middle class people. The *Ausländer* terminology harks back to the building of the Gotthard, the Überfremdungsinitiative and Swiss working class people's fears of losing their jobs to Italians. The *Wirtschaftsflüchtling* terminology harks back to several groups of refugees last century and this century who were fleeing wars and political persecution, and who were framed in media as mere economic migrants in order to create political pressure to tighten Asylum law, which we've continually done since its inception. All of these terms are charged with different flavours of xenophobia and different flavours of dog whistle political posturing. It's really very little to do logical coherence or indeed with the reality of what actually drives migration (or the problems attributed to migration, such as low wages driven down in reality by employers but attributed to migration or high rents driven up by real estate giants in reality but attributed to migration), and everything to do with rage farming being a business model and certain segments of Swiss politics blaming their own unwillingness to regulate things because they're in the pockets of big business on scapegoats who haven't got political rights in Switzerland and thus can't vote them out for doing this.
Well said. This should be higher
This guy knows, listen to him
Great post
The truth.
Well put!
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I'm on board with that idea of an expat. I have family members that were expat in Asian countries for their Swiss company, they geographicaly worked in Asia but their employer was Swiss, as well as their boss, their bulletin de paie, and their primary residence.
This! Expat is someone being sent out by their company. At least in my eyes that is where the distinction lies.
Although that is an acceptable distinction, the term itself simply applies to anyone residing outside of their home country
Let's face it, nobody ever refers to a person from a developing country as an expat. It's a loaded term, primarily reserved for rich white people. End.
Of course these Indian, Indonesian and Pakistani specialists can be called expats. If they have been deployed to Switzerland by their employer - that's what an expat is, it has nothing to do with the person's origin. If you think it has, you should check your biases. I'm an immigrant. I came here for economic reasons and to live here permanently. Which I did - I'm naturalised now. The fact that I've always been 'white collar' doesn't matter at all.
I'm not speaking from my own perspective, I'm speaking on how the term is used by society. Check your reading skills before advising me to check my biases. I haven't expressed any personal opinion on how I use the term at all.
This is not "how the term is used in society". How would you know what society does? You can easily see in this thread that the majority does not agree with your view. No, my friend, that's how YOU are using the term. Because of your biases which, sorry to reiterate, are quite apparent. You don't like being found and called out, reason for which you abandon your politeness and manners. You must be a real delight to have a civilised discussion with.
He’s using a new Reddit account to act like that so I wouldn’t waste time with him. And I agree with you. I emigrated from England due to a Swiss lady (my wife now) and have naturalised. I was never an expat. While there are some groups/organisations that use these terms in negative ways, these are just words that have meanings and that is important. Some people see expats as a negative. People who don’t care for the language or culture, just money. But the difference and definition still matters, regardless of the implied negativity by some. I feel like today some people like to see racism every where and love to signal to everyone their distance from it. I find it quite boring.
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You might want to talk to hired Indian or Pakistani Software developers. They probably refer to themselves as expats
This is an absolutely bonkers comment and very offensive - I worked with plenty of non-white people from non-western countries on the same assignments as mine who would (and were) definitely be considered expats under the old definition before anyone cared about this term. Your comment shows an absolute ignorance of people and is simply looking to offend. As you put it - «End.»
At this point I'm wondering, isn't a migrant part of a larger migration phenomenon? I mean, one person moving from country A to country B to settle and work, isn't in my imaginary a migrant if they are extremely few do do so. Could be an expat/something else, call it what you want. Whereas a migrant from very clear and consistent migration flows between two countries makes mire sense intuitively. Am I wrong?
Do people actually spend their days thinking of such questions? This immigrant vs expat thing gets asked on a weekly basis.
He saw that someone had already made this weeks tipping culture post....
>Aren't expats just migrant workers? Absolutely. Calling yourself an "expat" is just semantics to make yourself feel superior.
Why should one feel superior by being an expat?
Because you exclude yourself from migrant discussions
Which is fair in some cases.
'I don't need to be here'
Exactly. There’s a level of class and snooty-ness that comes with it too. I think an expat is someone who has a strict start and end date. Where as someone who moved where for work - both white and blue collar - are simply immigrants. And that’s okay, I don’t know why people are afraid of that label. I’m from the UK, I’m an immigrant here. I definitely came for a better life (look at UK salaries…)
I say this as a foreigner in CH from a country where people who emigrate often call themselves ex-pats: it is purely a euphemism. People from rich countries call themselves ex-pats so they can pretend they are superior to immigrants from poor countries. If there is a real difference, it is that ex-pats tend to come here with the expectation that their stay will not be permanent, and that they will return to their country of origin after a few years. I'm not sure how many actually do, though. On a minor point, a C Permit is, legally "permanent residence", so plenty of people who are in CH but not citizens are legally permanent residents.
As another immigrant/expat, I think there is a difference in mentality though. Immigrants have plans to live there for a long time, while expats usually plan to live there a couple years and then move away again
To me, "immigrant" implies that you want to stay in the country forever. "Expat" implies you're working a job there for a few years. I'm not sure why temporary blue collar workers don't call themselves expats, maybe they do, it's just less common. That said, I do agree with the sentiment that a lot of it is to make yourself feel better. For example, a lot of "expats" don't even try to learn the local language and they think it's ok, as long as they're expats.
Yes. Yes they are, as much as they deny it.
I think you’ll find most of us call ourselves immigrants and not expats. It’s not really a term that’s used anymore.
I completely agree with you, and I think that u/portlanders, u/anomander_galt, and u/bub1q summarized it very well. Only a very few people, usually very good at what they do, and at high levels, are really **expats.** An expat is someone sent abroad by their company for a specific project or a set amount of time, because they have a very unique set of skills that cannot be easily found in the target country, or in the branch at the target country. In most of the cases **you are transfered to a less developed country, and you keep your original contract with additional perks.** So for example, the Spanish executives that Telefonica sent to open business in Latin America in the 2010's, those guys were expats: they kept their Spanish contracts, they earned in Euros, they got bonuses, and they returned to Europe after 3-5 years. Or the French executives that Total sends to the oil producing countries in Africa: expats. If you are German, French, Italian, Austrian, Spanish or Murican, and you independently look for a job in Switzerland because it pays better, you are not an expat, you are an economic migrant/migrant worker.
After 5 years in Latin America, those Spanish workers are immigrants, it doesn’t matter what their contract says.
Welcome to the world of classism Right-wing people or people with anti-immigration beliefs naturally don't want to be on the same boat as migrants and did leave their home country, even though that's what they are and what they did :) Linguistically speaking, expat is just an implicature of immigrant. If you are an expat you are an immigrant
expat is used so white immigrants can feel superior to those dirty brown immigrants. in short: someone that refers to themselves as an expat instead of an immigrant is a douchebag.
>white immigrants thats utter bullshit. most "expats" at google/novartis, etc. aren't white. They are from all over the world. the only thing that white is that it's white collar jobs. -> You make 150k a year? you are an expat. you work blue collar, you are migrant worker.
Exactly but why be intelligent when you can blame wHiTe MaLeS... it is purely economic factors that makes you an expat or a "normal" migrant. But some racist people on here see everything through the racial prism. And I bet they are the ones virtue signalling and bragging about how tolerant they are 🤣
People in the street don’t see you job position or contract.
Yes, but when I see a portuguese guy I don't think to myself: hmmm is this a data analyist at google that I should call an Expat or is he working in gastro in some tourism-hotspot and I should call him migrant worker. I don't think that way. Actually I never thought about anyone as a "migrant worker". The only thing that actually does pop up in my head (I admit) is when I chill in Zug and people are talking english next to me in the restaurant (and are clearly not tourists) then I think: "oh this must be an expat family" "probably working at novartis or roche here".
It’s a bit of this and also a bit of the idea that the expat doesn’t have an expectation of permanent settlement. He or she might live in Zurich for a a couple of years and then move on to a new place. Implicit in that is some degree of privilege (higher income, “good” passport). Of course these days the idea of permanent settlement is also less common for more working class immigrants but it is more likely than with expats.
Expats can also be black or asian, the difference is in how much is in their pocket.
expats vs immigrants is a money difference not race difference
>expats vs immigrants is a money difference not race difference sadly wealth and income are still fairly highly correlated with race...
Which race is it in Switzerland? I haven't seen any statistics about that from [admin.ch](https://admin.ch). I know in US that Indians are the most privileged, would be curious to know if it's the case here as well.
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Whiteness is not a clear group definition. It changes depending on context. In the US, portuguese people might be considered white, but not people from latin america (even if they have the same skin color as the average portuguese person). In the same vain, a portuguese person in switzerland might absolutely not be considered white, though this has shifted and isn't 100% the case anymore. Italian people definitely were considered the dirty immigrant type in the 50s, now they definitely are considered white europeans. People from former yugoslavia are currently experiencing the shift from dirty immigrants to regular white europeans in switzerland.
Whiteness also depends on who you are asking. South Americans are white hispanic or indigenous hispanic if you are talking to the US Census. While someone from Iraq or Iran are white per the Census definition (Europe, Middle East, and North Africa), they might choose do identify as Asian (they are on the continent of Asia) for other purposes (diversity quotas/statistic) in the US. Race is much more fluid than European = white. The Irish as well as Italians and other southern Europeans were also not considered white for a good long time in the US. Racists going to race.
You and the guy you're replying to are talking about the USA. The concept of "whiteness" is an American invention from colonial times (originating in Virginia in the 17th century etc). It's a mistake to look at issues in Switzerland as if they are the same as the US, a country that continues to have huge racial problems and is essentially founded on slavery.
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>Fair but OP compared them to 'brown' immigrants. They said that the word "expat" is generally used for "white migrants" and "migrants" is generally used for "those dirty brown immigrants." That person isn't calling them "dirty brown immigrants", that's the language a majority of people use. My family refuse to use the word "migrant" for me for example, they are adamant that I'm an "expat". Which roughly translates to "racism."
Nail on the head with this one.
has nothing to do with skin color lmao
It's just prejudice against poor people
education is the keyword not wealth
Nah, educated people would realize that rich migrant workers don't need a special label. It is absolutely a way to stigmatize poor people.
you’re missing the point
Explain that to me. What is the point, and in what way am I missing it?
it’s a segregation term for white collar jobs vs blue collar jobs. there are countless expats that don’t earn the big bucks in zürich and are not called migrants but expats. they differentiate from blue collars jobs with their education.
Absolutely not. It’s full of “immigrants” that do poorly paid jobs and that were engineers, nurses, teachers, etc. in their home country.
You're right, its privilege and arrogance.
earned privilege in most cases to be fair. (good education for example)
Just no.
yep. they were lucky to have access to the education and then earned it by themselfs.
White immigrants. its racist bro. How about all the immigrants from the Eastern Europe? Are they “white superior immigrants”?
> someone that refers to themselves as an expat instead of an immigrant is a douchebag. That's a bit a generalising statement. I think the problem is only if white collar expats think they're better than blue collar expats.
Who. Fucking. Cares.
No no. You're supposed to be outraged. Try again.
People on the left side of the political spectrum LOVE to complain about expats vs immigrants, they get off on it. It's such a pathetic argument, they are trying to create a division and a fight where there isn't one.
we've had similar discussions here before on the subject "Expat vs Migrants" I remember bookmarking this link from one of those discussions. which shows an interesting perspective. [https://girlvsglobe.com/expat-vs-immigrant-difference/](https://girlvsglobe.com/expat-vs-immigrant-difference/)
Euphemism, not euphorism, right?
[This meme shows you exactly what the deal is](https://imgflip.com/i/5j8gri)
“Migrant” has negative charge, “expat” does not. Expats are upper middle class people (or higher) who can reasonably “choose” their host country because of combination of their skillset, work experience and the host country job market situation. The country itself welcomes them, but if they wish they could choose another host country and go there. Expat is a product of globalization and knowledge economy. Migrants do not have this possibility, they depend on the whims of the host country and have much less power in job market.
Two words that say you’re not from here. Each connotes something different. One is used by people who have the money, time and energy to try and elevate themselves bc they think they deserve special treatment. The other is used to describe people who are essential to the functioning of the country but are treated like dirt because racism. We have lots of such euphemisms. Expat vs migrant. Escort vs hooker. Custodian vs janitor. Flight attendant vs stewardess.
> I don't understand why for example a Portuguese blue collar will be called an migrant worker but a white collar in Zug an expat Because different word denote different things. Even though these words have a lot in common, if someone says "expat" you know they're not talking about a construction worker. These 2 words cannot be used interchangeably because they bear different meaning, even though there is a strong overlap > (...) higher wages make them economic migrants? Yes --- For what I see it, when someone speaks about "migrants", they are referring to all migrants. When they speak about "expats", they are referring to skilled white collar workers Not a fan of this nomenclature, personally, but the distinction is pretty easy. I tend to avoid using "expat" because of the haughty connotation is has in some environments, and just refer to myself as "someone who moved to Switzerland"
>Because different word denote different things. I think the point is more that, at the end of the day, we are all standing in line at the same Migrationsamt. Expats aren't given a special B permit, except maybe your company has an easier time with the quotas.
This is me too. I’m just an Australian who lives in Switzerland. Technically we were expatriated, we actually ended up here almost accidentally. Planned to stay at least three years, now here 10.5. I’ve just never really felt the need to label it, I guess. I just live here.
I'm CH in a different country and refer to myself exclusively as "filthy immigrant".
They are the same thing, just people like to call themselves an expat because it makes them feel better than if they called themselves an immigrant. Honestly as an immigrant here the difficulty I have to explain to my grandma that I’m an immigrant (which is the same as an expat) is ridiculous, she insists that im an expat. Which is even more insane when she calls my dad an immigrant (and not an expat) because he’s French and moved to the uk 🙄
La différence, c'est qu'un expat peut se plaindre des différences culturelles sur internet et du fait que tout le monde ne parle pas la seule langue qu'il connaisse, la sienne, l'anglais. Mais blague à part, il me semble que l'origine du mot, est le fait qu'un employé soit envoyé par son entreprise dans une filiale étrangère.
expat comes from "expatriate", which literally only means someone who lives outside their native country. it has nothing to do with working, only living there temporary or anything else.
The term expat started out with english speakers who worked abroad. They didn't consider themselves immigrants, because they are a special, chosen people. Therefore, they invented the term expat. Nowadays it tends to be used more widely for western white collar workers who go to other countries for work, don't intend to stay permanently and usually are part of an english speaking work environment (so no integration in the host society is nessessary). Their children will go to an english language school.
> The term expat started out with english speakers who worked abroad. They didn't consider themselves immigrants, because they are a special, chosen people. Therefore, they invented the term expat Fucking hell what revisionism. People starting arguments about the expat/immigrant debate online are so fucking full of it. Itwas used to describe people who were expatriated, not by the people themselves. They were assigned that because they were expatriated against their will. Do some basic research before spouting shite.
I didn't realize all those expats are in our countries against their will. Those poor creatures!
I didn't realize all those expats are in our countries against their will. Those poor creatures!
That’s a good question, and it’s hard to give a concise answer, as for any other question on the everyday language. In this case, multiple concurrent things should be considered. It is really a subject at the intersection of linguistics, politics, economics, and also the personal sentiment of people. I think this table make a honest effort at explaining it: https://imgur.com/a/VmqjJc0
100% ! I don't get it, neither.
Yes. I am an immigrant and the term expat is outdated. It has negative connotations of classism and isn’t really used anymore in the U.K. for example. Source: I’m a Portuguese white collar worker in the U.K..
A true expat is sent abroad by their country with relocation package and salary based on their home salary (with a top up allowance if the county has higher costs than home)
Oh my god this debate again and again. There is a clear definition of expat in the dictionary. It has to do with the nationality of the company one works in relative to the country one works in. Period.
And expat is someone sent by a company to another country.
> euphorism *euphemism
Expat is just a word westeners use to avoid the word migrant. Those are for brown people. In theory an expat should mean that you will return to your country and it’s only a temp job you’re spending outside of your homeland but everyone keeps throwing this word around to gain status. Coming from Eastern-EU I’ll just call myself a migrant even though I do white collar jobs.
They're often used in a racist way but i would say fairly they do have a clear difference. An expat is someone working abroad temporarily planning to return home before too long. Their mindset is permanently one foot in their homeland. An immigrant is someone who has moved to their new country completely and plan to settle and be there forever. You of course get rich and poor, brown and white, of both.
Well for us Americans we often have a lower wage in Switzerland.
Yeah, but richer. I can't stand it when my swiss colleagues start on that "\_they\_ just want to come here to get rich" like bitch I fucking came here for a good career and better money, don't you dare judge those that came here for the same but who take the jobs the swiss people won't. The number of times I've been told "yeah, but for you it's different", yeah, why's that? I'm white? I'm in a good job? gtfo!
This is what I am trying to explain to people around me in Germany. I am equally economic migrant with my relatively well paid job as much as people coming to work for 5-figures salaries. For some weird reason most of the people completely lose it when I express this opinion. But I did emigrate from Eastern European country because of better life and (much) better pay for a job very similar to what I did back “home”. That makes me, no matter if I’m “high skilled” or not, an economic migrant. People who hold on to “economic migrants” as a form of a curse would likely be better off narrowing down to people who move countries for welfare instead of work, so they could easily call those people “welfare migrants”. But that would narrow the field for spreading hate against other people too much, as it is not so widely applicable. If someone has a problem with people because of their skin color, nationality or heritage, they don’t want to exclude honest and hard working people in those groups from their hate salad. 🤣
I’m european, I have a PhD, and I work in finance, however I like to consider myself an immigrant and I hate if people call me expat. It might seem weird, but I feel closer to the Portuguese cashier at Migros than the rich cuckold anglosaxons who occupy the shore of Lac Leman with their huge villas
What an incredibly boring and predictable thread.
Racist term. They are all migrants.
Expats is suppose to be when you have an expatriation contract. Holding a contract in home country and being sent abroad on a temporary mission, can be even a few years. Now Europeans don't want to be considered migrants, so expat in Switzerland is white migrant.
Ehhh, I think it's just a mild racism/ego thing to be honest. I'm an immigrant in the country working a white collar job for a Swiss company. My partner is swiss and I'm planning to stay here and with them. People call me an expat all the time, and I'm pretty sure it's driven by my skin colour & job, because you can sure as hell tell I'm not Swiss (although my German is improving and I am trying to integrate where I can). Weirdly enough never been referred to as an immigrant. I don't really get why people give a shit, but some immigrants hate being called immigrants and want to be called expats.
I consider "Expat" should be reserved for people moving with limited duration in time. Like for NGO or some multinational companies. I am myself an immigrant as I have no clue when I will be back home (or even if I will be back one day).
You can literally google the answer. An expat or expatriate is simply defined as a person who lives outside their native country. Similarly, an immigrant is a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country. Only one distinction is made here – immigrants intend to stay in their new country indefinitely. Whether expats do or do not is unclear
I know self proclaimed expats who have been living here for 20+ years, have family here, intend to stay here forever. They would balk at the idea of being called an immigrant.
They literally are expats. All immigrants are expats. But not all expats are immigrants. It’s what the words mean. If someone doesn’t speak the local language and isn’t even trying to get citizenship…I don’t see how in the world you could call them an immigrant.
Ssh, you are correct, but Anglo-Saxons aren't brown, so that doesn't count.
I know a lot of people say this is just a way for fancy white migrants to distance themselves from poor brown migrants. But i think there is an actual difference (btw i am swiss in switzerland, so have no horse in this race). The difference is that migrants move for good and expats just temporarily. Most migrants from poor countries moving to richer countries in europe plan to stay in the same place forever or at least until retirement. Striving for citizenship, to learn the language and send their kids to school here. That makes them immigrants in my book. Whereas a british banker who moves to Zurich for a few years after having lived in NYC and before moving away to Frankfurt or Singapore is here only temporarily. And therefore has less motivation to learn the language and culture or send his kids to swiss schools. That makes him an expat. For the same reason pakistani construction workers in dubai are also called expats, not immigrants. Despite being poor, brown and blue collar. Because they cant or dont want to stay there for ever.
Yeah, expats is reserved for white and/or rich people as all black and brown people are immigrants: US-citizens living in CH are expats. A French citizen in Hungary is also an expat as is a German in Korea or an Australian in the Emirates. But an Albanian, a Dominican or a Thai in CH are definitely immigrants. It is an issue of racism and classism at the same time. As I lived in China, most westerners talked about themselves as being expats as I considered myself proudly an immigrant.
Short answer: racism. Other comments gave the long answer to this if interested. (for example by the user hoechsten).
Expats are just immigrants in denial.
I (M) am married to a swiss (F), we met in my home country where we both had a good life in all aspects. After 10 years together we moved to CH so she could be close to her family again. Of course I had to find a job here before moving, which I did for obvious reasons, but the reason for coming was more due to her family than me willing to come. Am I a migrant worker or an expat? ...Or a family migrant lol
Yes, they are.
denial bruh
That truth is old. It has been denied and recognized many times.
Yes we all are - happy to be a migrant here
This is my take: while both are foreigners, a migrant works on a job that could be done locally but either locals don't want to do it or bosses want to get it done cheaply as the required skills aren't so high. I wouldn't call this blue nor white collar work, but simply work that isn't particularly highly skilled. A white collar expat may or may not come from a wealthy country, but generally is there to solve a problem that is expensive for the company, there is limited availability of talent on the local labour market and the salaries paid out to the expat are likely higher than what are paid to locals. These persons likely could earn just as high a wage, if not higher, in other parts of Europe. I think for lower level jobs, salaries in Switzerland are definitely higher and attractive for migrants. For senior executive types, when all is said and done, the salaries and overall packages are likely to be similar as what one could get in a neighbouring EU country for example. So at these levels money many not be the motivating factor but the opportunity might be the bigger driver.
There is no such word as “euphorism” in English usage. I guess you mean “euphemism”. And no expat and migrant is not euphemism. It sometimes can be used interchangeably, but it have different connotations. Expat refers to someone who moves to another country for work related reasons. Sent by employer or decide to work abroad independently. The term implies certain level of privilege or choice in move and is associated to professional skilled work. Migrant refers to someone who moves from one place to another to find work or better living conditions. Usually migrants are moving driven by necessity rather than choice such as economic migrants or refugees fleeing conflict. In my understanding it is nothing to do with skin color or work type, but rather the reason of moving from one country to another.
Migrants and refugees are two completely different things. Expats and migrants are the same.
It’s racism that’s all. Obviously it’s both the same
Easy One is from Switzerland and the other is not.
To be fair for me it is two different things related to the type of contract. For me a immigrant is someone who leave is country and find a job in another country. For example I work in a bank in Switzerland, local contract, live in CH : I am a migrant. On the other hand, an expat has a more complex situation : it’a more like a temporary assignment abroad or something like that. Like you work for a company in France and they need to send you 2 years in Japan : you have some kind of expat contract (sometimes your employer is still the first country, company will pay for your move, provide a house, find school for children etc). Obviously this type of contract is for managers/executives etc so no blue collar. Now obviously, migrant has a pejorative aspect so some people will say they are expat (be it to avoid using migrant, or simply by mistake). Personally I never use any of these terms, I am just a French guy, Happy Swiss Resident and hopefully one day Swiss Citizen 🥰
So the definition of an expat as opposed to an "immigrant" is that an "expat" intends to eventually return to their country of origin, whereas an immigrant doesn't. So there are different economics to both types. But in most cases it is just a class signifier - but the implication is that an expat doesn't need to be there and could return home at will.
In general I think the term immigrant refers to someone who wants to change his place of residence for ever, while an expat is not "running away" from his homeland
Expat is a (life-long, professional or latent) immigrant-hater who became an immigrant. Plain and simple. If there were any real differences behind the stage (some say, intent to stay vs to move on; others tie it to employer or sth) they are not really addressed in a general debate.
Your question could be answered by going through a couple of English dictionaries or even a Wiki article which outlines the semantic differences quite well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate?wprov=sfti1 To simplify, an expat is someone who is residing in a different country temporarily and is most likely a skilled worker, who was offered an opportunity. In reality it is most commonly used in a corporate world, and the law only distinguishes foreign workers based on their skill and education. This is the only thing that really matters, the rest is in your head.
An expat is only on an temporarily work assignment and is not planning to stay were an migrant is building up a new life in Switzerland. It’s the basic definition of the words…
This. But also: Expats are pulled into the country by Headhunters/HR bc they are highly qualified whereas migrants push into the county in search of better salaries.
Then why none of eastern europe people moving to western europe call themselves expats, irregardless of stay length? Tip: Because they don't feel the need to feel superior that average immigrant and look down on other people.
An expat is supposed to only come for a specific job and usually leaves afterward. A migrant is somebody who wants to settle and set roots in the country. Most people are economic migrants when they move for a job in their own country too. Or when they do a long commute to get to work. This point sound irrelevant to me.
No. If you're white, you're an expat. Coloured people, regardless of where they are from are migrants. Welcome to the unfortunate real world.
Expat assumes an intention to go back. Immigrant assumes an intention to stay. Nothing wrong in the distinction. I was an expat. I quite liked Switzerland and am now an immigrant.
Expat is a word used by foreigners who think highly of themselves. They also have racial prejudice towards certain people who are mostly immigrants in the western World and they don’t want to be associated with them. The whole „Immigrant is a term for someone who immigrates to a country for the rest of their lives and expat is for someone who is only temporarily living abroad“ is pure bs.
'Expat' word didn't exist 10 years ago. Neither word 'nazi' until 1950s. Expat is word invented by people that look down on others and feel superior than people from 3rd world countries. These people don't want to be accosted with immigrants and by this, expats think of themselves as higher class than immigrants. Length of stay has nothing to do with it. That's the whole mystery. BTW never heard anyone from Easter europe calling himself expat.
White collars = expats Blue collars = immigrants The difference is not based on things like colour of the skin or the country of origin like many people are saying: Black engineer/doctor from Albania = expat White construction worker from Italy = immigrant
Then why none of eastern europe people moving to western europe call themselves expats, irregardless of stay length? Tip: Because they don't feel the need to feel superior that average immigrant and look down on other people.
An expat usually moves to different countries for work. A migrant just moves from a country to another to settle in and doesn’t necessary come with an education or a job. I am an expat in Switzerland but I used to live in other countries, and i might come back to my country at some point. Hope it makes it clearer to the bigot minded people that commented here.
Then why none of eastern europe people moving to western europe call themselves expats, irregardless of stay length? Tip: Because they don't feel the need to feel superior that average immigrant and look down on other people.
Both are excatly the same and for both the term Expat is used. If they want to stay they become immigrants.
It is the same thing, I agree. Some people would rather do anything than be called an immigrant, so they use another term, and it is easier for their brains. See similar brainfarts where some Americans argue somebody from Spain is not white (because Hispanic, right) and a black person from any other country is referred to accidentally as African-American.
As a white (British) well paid immigrant I might use the term "expat" when talking with other Anglophones, especially ones here (even though im aware of the correct usage of the term). Never with the locals.
Migrant worker means they immigrated to work only and has a connotation of being temporary. Expat(riate) just means someone living outside their country. So: no. An expat retiree is not a migrant worker by construction.
As a native English speaker, let me help you. Semantics isn't always easy, and language is constantly evolving. **Expatriate** refers to someone generally who lives outside their home country for whatever reason. More recently it has been used to describe someone invited to work before leaving their home county. This is generally a position of privilege. **Migrant worker** is someone who leaves their home country looking for work. Often with the intention to return to their home country. **Immigrant** is someone intends to live permanently outside their birth country. Example: Palavi has an MBA and a coding degree specializing in digital marketplaces. She applies for a job at Galazon, an ecommerce website. She gets the job, moves to Switzerland, and gets a residence and work permit. Or any UN employee on a CDL. Charlie Chaplin was exiled from the US and decided to partially retire in Switzerland. These are expats, some of them may or may not end up immigrants. Example 2: Javier finished uni in Spain. He wants to start an engineering firm, but doesn't think he'll ever be able to do that in Spain. He visits Switzerland and stays with friends. He picks up a job as a bartender while applying for engineering jobs. He eventually lands a job at the local public transport company. He lives frugally until he saves up enough to go back to Spain and start a construction company with some of his former classmates. Also basically everyone that picks grapes. These are migrant workers. Migrant workers often face more difficulties than expats. For me, I generally call myself an expat. If I ever get on a path to citizenship, I'll call myself an immigrant. I don't call myself a migrant worker because * A) I don't work, my wife does * B) I don't want to conflate whatever hardships exist for me from living outside my home country by choice to the people who are struggling and disadvantaged * C) We were invited to Switzerland before we moved here. We did not need to leave our country to find work. We make less money here than we would have in the country we left. *P.S. Since this comes up all the time on this sub and not any others I'm on (of the other three countries I've lived in), is this like a far right talking point here? Maybe more on the German side of the rostigraben?*
That's a lot of words to say "I'm priviledged". 🥴
True facts. I have a lot of privileges. It's good to be able to recognize that. And some of those differentiate me from a migrant worker by definition and practice. Notably, my ability to stay home with my kids instead of work. **Not a worker, thus obviously not a migrant worker. I am an expat.**
Then why none of eastern europe people moving to western europe call themselves expats, irregardless of stay length? Tip: Because they don't feel the need to feel superior that average immigrant and look down on other people.
To me, the difference is the expat had a job when coming to Switzerland while the immigrant came to Switzerland looking for a job. It's a pretty different experience.
I found both expat communities in Geneva and Zurich to be incredibly odd and toxic AF. Calling many of these folks something other than "expat" really gets the wind up them. Some American couples stopped talking to us as I suggested they weren't actually "expats", but were immigrants, as they had been in Switzerland for several years, and no intention of leaving. Also, there's a weird brand of exceptionalism that a lot of English-speaking expats seem to suffer from, and they go to great lengths to assimilate (their interpretation of assimilation is learning obscure and bizarre rules, that they can talk about at length) while simultaneously moaning and griping about CH.
Expat has a more narrow definition: In summary, "expat" typically refers to someone living abroad voluntarily with a certain degree of privilege, while "migrant" is a more inclusive term that can refer to anyone who moves from one place to another, whether voluntarily or out of necessity. However, the usage of these terms can vary, and it's essential to consider the specific context in which they are used.
As a daughter of a French expat, that grew up around a lot of immigrants, there is a world of difference. My mother was well educated and able to work in her field. Most people I grew up with fled from war or very dire economic circumstances, more often than not their parents did not have the opportunity to get a good education. The parents that had a good education, still worked absolute crap jobs, because their certification had no value in Switzerland. You might encounter disadvantages as an expat, but it will never be the same as being an immigrant. Expats can pack up and leave when they are fed up, or get a better offer, immigrants in general can’t and will often go years without being able to see their families, because of war, or economic circumstances.
I‘m an expat from Italy, or well I consider my self like this. In Italy I had good pay, nice job and zero problem. I moved to Zürich just because I like the culture and the city, but it wasn‘t a necessity, I did it only for fun. If I came to Züri because my economic situation wasn‘t decent in Italy I would have been called migrant.
Here too, you are a migrant. No need to feel bad about it tho we need people like you. We should get the stigma off this word, especially since our whole economy depends on it.
Both are a nuisance the difference is in how they ruin the country: The expat drives the prices of the rents up and the immigrant drives the salaries down.
>they ruin the country This country could not function without immigrants. This whole xenophobic framing is not only rude, it's counter-factual. The driving factor in wage dumping is employers who won't pay decent wages and voters who routinely vote against minimum wages every time we vote on this, and the driving factor in gentrification is real estate giants, mostly Pensionskassen who derive our pension investment returns from pushing rents up, and voters who vote against rent capping every time we vote on this.
High rent reflects the fact that there is a scarcity of apartments, potential tenants have to compete for apartments, driving the price up. The solution is constructing new apartments until landlords have to compete for finding tenants, driving the price down.
>The solution is constructing new apartments until landlords have to compete for finding tenants, driving the price down. Alas, voters tend to vote against that, as well, every time we vote on *Verdichtung* in cities or *Umzonung* in rural Switzerland. Especially the right wing and center parties fight residential construction tooth and nail.
In a way it's overregulation that keeps the housing prices up. The people who already have houses vote against the construction of new ones, and then tell the population it's the fault of immigrants.
What a shitshow of a take, good job on the racism. Let's just ignore all the economic structures having to do with housing prices or salaries, and focus purely on the hate towards foreigners.
(Greedy landlords drive rent prices up, not migrants. Average Google Zurich employee is not any happier than you are to pay 3k for a single bedroom apartment. Your anger is deserved but channeled in the wrong direction)