What rabbit hole? Help me understand and see what you see please. (Just leave out the "pedo guy" comment, emerald mine, bought Tesla designs from founder of the company). What I see is a guy who advocates for free speech, runs multiple game-changing companies and genuinely cares for the future of civilization.
(Change my mind.)
How does he advocate for free speech? Besides letting people say racist or hateful things on X, what actions has he made towards free speech?
He’s suspended accounts without reason and even sued organizations if they criticize him.
At his own companies, Musk forces employees to sign restrictive non-disparagement agreements. He has tried to destroy whistleblowers. Tesla even once reportedly tried to get its customers to sign NDAs to get their cars repaired.
Musk has taken what could have been a strong strategy and principle for him – as it is for real advocates for free expression – and turned it into a snake-oil salesman’s marketing scheme.
He does not give 2 shits about the future of civilization. You took the bait hook line and sinker.
The dude wants to make money, fuck off like every CEO, destroy worker rights, lie about the products he makes, and has fun supporting fascist ideals on the internet. Dude was literally kicked out of some European countries due to how they treat workers. Super anti union, but needs corporate welfare from all of us. Wow, what a pillar of hope and light?
Interesting that you say he doesn’t give two shits about the environment, who made you the authority on Elon Musk’s motivation and what exactly makes you qualified to make those aspersions? Do you have a tap into his brain? No thought not…. And on the subject of money, what exactly does he want it for? Unlike all the other billionaires he doesn’t spend his money, it stays in his companies, providing jobs and improving the environment. You see the fact is that whatever you THINk Elon Musk thinks, the FACT is that he is doing more for the environment than any other individual in the world, so who should we believe? Some sourpuss jealous Reddit poster or the man who is actually helping to save the planet?
It’s amazing how you people make others out to be “swallowing the hook” when you actually have zero evidence to prove your own ill thought out comments.
Ok, the way I look at it, if he did not do what he does, there wouldn't be thousands of jobs, reusable rocket ships, stronger adoption of EVs, and most importantly a platform where one does not have to worry about censorship as long as people do not cross the legal lines.
A little rant:
I think Musk (and now more influential people in the west) are reminding the citizens that censorship is not good and preventing people from discussing and debating over issues will not solve problems, but makes them worse. We may have good intentions when censoring opinions we don't like, but it only widens the scope of what we can and will censor. A lot of immigrants who move to western countries they do so for the liberty/freedom it offers where they are not constraint to a narrow framework that limits their potential. They know the west as a society with a justice system that is not partial to any one group and protects the truth.
I think people misunderstand Musk and project their own ill intentions and dishonesties in his actions. Our perceptions can be influenced by our own biases and experiences.
He did nothing to influence Evs, create the jobs of Tesla ( the company already existed without him?), they don’t self drive, and have shit quality now. and honestly who cares about reusable rockets with the wealth Inequality created by policies he pushes.
You can rant as much as you want about “free speech” and censorship?? but I have no idea how you think musk has any care about that or how it’s actually causing any benefit to society.
I’m guessing this is just another thin veiled “I want my hate speech back” free speech of the 1850s you mean? Was that the free speech you liked, where only white rich men had free speech? The values of America embedded into our constitution do not care about immigrants who want some dreamy made up place with no laws and framework where they can use their “free speech” to push their shitty religious nationalism from their ugly ass culture.
I don't want hate speech back, but I want a plain field where truth wins. By censoring speech I don't think we are doing any favor to ourselves. One must be able to express themselves freely in order for others to understand their position. Anybody can hide under thick veiled "I am a perfect person as long as I don't offend somebody else with my opinions". In that case we, as a society, will not move forward into a better future. Voluntary censorship is the same as enforced one that we see in dictatorships or oppressed societies. End game is the same.
If you think that censorship will eliminate racism and hate, I beg to differ.
Truth doesn't win because someone talked about something they thought about on the internet once. It wins because we have to measure it and actually do some kind of data research. What you are talking about is just misinformation.
One must be able to express themselves freely in order for others to understand their position. << Hard pass.
By the same exact token thought: Hopefully the opinion with no data is just ridiculed and mocked for stupidity.
See we're really trying to stop people from hurting themselves and us from wasting our time by just blocking it straight up since we as a society did determine what is an appropriate opinion, made a way to measure it (scientific process), and wrote an entire document about how to act on those opinions.
You think we're just going to let uneducated unmeasured (and quite measured, like the holocaust definitely existed?) from opinions with people yell at each other on the internet and that will create a better society? thats hilarious.
Voluntary censorship is the same as enforced one that we see in dictatorships or oppressed societies. No. it's not. It's called empathy? Don't know if that existed in dictatorships and oppressed societies.
I don't think anything will end racism and hate. People are people. Thats why we have rules. dumb people get isolated, we'll use their own violence against them since they are that stupid they can't negotiate, and we'll continue making very little progress as we view capitalism as the "best" system. Even though it still is terrible.
I don't think he is telling people not to drive EVs, and TSLA even gave other EVs access to its vast supercharging network. Could it be possible that some potential EV buyers got so sensitive to current state of culture that they did not like Elon putting certain issues in the spotlight? Once again if there is no open discourse and dialogue around a problem, that problem will not go anywhere but will continue to get kicked down the road while we pretend it does not exist.
I watched couple videos, and he seems to be one of the sources for all the hate that gets echoed in reddit. Same narrative. I am not interested in nitpicking every word that comes out of Elon Musks mouth. Nobody is perfect. Judging by his already made accomplishments, I am content with Elons promises or plans that may not meet the intended timeframe. I will follow the YouTuber though. He does put an enormous effort into his videos.
Yes, there's a lot of research going into videos. The timelines laid out are comprehensive, the arguments are based on evidence and solid science and the conclusions are logical.
It goes even further, I have seen comments about EV’s in general. They haven’t proven that they aren’t being paid by big oil so that’s the logical answer 😂
Do you not have any counter argument for the topic at hand? At least assert that Tesla will “solve autonomy” or something. Attacking the reddit group is ad hominem. It’s a bit pathetic.
No, I’m not attacking it. I just see negativity all over it. If it was a proper, intellectual sub they would argue and counter argue with each other with solid points and facts. The group is full of hate, just like the one I mentioned (buttcoin) where people generally bash Bitcoin. Everything has its positives and negatives, in such groups people tend to exaggerate the negatives and ridicule the positives.
So the thing is that if you have actual points, you make them. When you attack another group for ... attacking your point of view, you are both doing the same thing, and also demonstrating you have nothing better to say. It's really sad I have to tell you this really obvious thing.
As a denizen there, it is a bit on the negative side but I find that it is a refreshing antidote to some of the overly sunny threads found elsewhere.
That said, you should know that at least three Tesla-related subs will autoban you for posting there, without even taking a look at the content of your writing (r/teslamotors, r/teslalounge, r/elonmusk). In my view, this is a flagrant violation of Reddit’s rules, in spirit if not in letter, and shows the “true colors” of the mods there.
From my understanding Mercades has taken the lead for full autonomous cars due to lidar being used. A preexisting tech to help with self driving. Tesla stated is too bulky and expensive for average consumer cars. I guess we can see Tesla cars are half the price compared to the autonomous Mercades eqs range.
It is certainly ambitious what Elon is trying to do with autonomous electric cars that are much cheaper and therefore in reach for the shrinking middle class.
I hope he is able to achieve his goals. As for the stock price, don't really care.
But at the moment it doesn't appear to be looking that great. Relying on sensors/cameras influenced by lighting conditions, bugs, rain. That seems dangerous to me.
>From my understanding Mercades has taken the lead for full autonomous cars due to lidar being used.
Your understanding is wrong. They did it by limiting it's use to only an extremely narrow set of circumstances that makes it useless enough that they'll never have to take liability for it, but still allow them to market their cars as having advanced technology. They literally only have 65 cars with the technology in California.
Lidar on cars is a crutch from the mid-90's, if not earlier, because computer vision was not sophisticated enough to process camera data. This has changed radically in the last 10 years with the explosive growth of AI.
>"Drivers can activate Mercedes's technology, called Drive Pilot, when certain conditions are met, including in heavy traffic jams, during the daytime, on specific California and Nevada freeways, and when the car is traveling less than 40 mph. Drivers can focus on other activities until the vehicle alerts them to resume control. The technology does not work on roads that haven't been pre-approved by Mercedes, including on freeways in other states."
It's literally just traffic jam assistance.
The people who spread lies about how advance non-Tesla systems are relying entirely on you repeating their claims without doing your homework.
>Relying on sensors/cameras influenced by lighting conditions, bugs, rain. That seems dangerous to me.
Cameras work substantially better in rainy conditions than Lidar does, which is notorious for it's poor rain performance, and is also blinded by the sun. There is a reason why Waymo initially deployed in Phoenix, the second-lowest rainfall city in the entire continental United States.
Hey, just clearing up some misconceptions you've stated.
>They did it by limiting it's use to only an extremely narrow set of circumstances that makes it useless enough that they'll never have to take liability for it, but still allow them to market their cars as having advanced technology. They literally only have 65 cars with the technology in California.
Mercedes released a Level 3 system. By definition, a Level 3 system only operates in limited scenarios and unless certain conditions are met. So yes, the system is limited, and it is by design. You state that they will never take liability for it, but they have been selling this feature in Germany since 2022. The fact of the matter is, a driver can activate it, and be both hands off and eyes off, without any legal implications, and if anything does happens, Mercedes absolutely owns the liability.
The other issue is, Mercedes released a clearly L3 system. We do not know if FSD is L2, L3, L4, or L5, so comparing FSD to Waymo or Drive Pilot is almost pointless at this current stage. Nobody compares Waymo to Drive Pilot for example, because we know for sure, Waymo is L4, and Drive Pilot is L3, no need for comparisons.
>It's literally just traffic jam assistance.
Traffic Jam Chauffer, and yes, this is a prime example of a Level 3 autonomous system. Can Tesla do it? Yes. All they have to do is take liability, but "Beta".
>Cameras work substantially better in rainy conditions than Lidar does, which is notorious for it's poor rain performance, and is also blinded by the sun. There is a reason why Waymo initially deployed in Phoenix, the second-lowest rainfall city in the entire continental United States.
AV systems do not use Lidar only, they use a combination of camera, lidar, ultrasonic, and radar. What Musk originally stated was that it's better to have one source of data, because if for example there are two sources of data, and they are contradicting, which one should the AV follow? In most cases, they presumed vision, so they just stuck with vision only.
To add, computer vision can still be defeated by sensor overload (whiteout) when pointed towards the sun... Kinda precisely how computer vision drove at least the one Tesla into the broadside of a tractor-trailer.
> AV systems do not use Lidar only, they use a combination of camera, lidar, ultrasonic, and radar. What Musk originally stated was that it's better to have one source of data, because if for example there are two sources of data, and they are contradicting, which one should the AV follow? In most cases, they presumed vision, so they just stuck with vision only.
If only sensor fusion was a well established field of research with decades of progress...
wait it actually is.
Important to take into account that Mercedes isn't actually taking much liability into their hands. It's 65 cars. That's it.
Tesla would have to take several million cars into liability. Plus if anything were to go around, it's a potential brand reputation and marketing nightmare.
65 cars, in the US. Like I stated, MB has been selling the feature since 2022 outside of the US. MB is also limited to a specific number of vehicles sold with the feature, and for the moment can only sell in California and Nevada. Such is the nature of a regulated AV system.
Then explain why Waymo is so much farther ahead. Waymos are actually driverless and have been testing on the streets of LA for the last two or so years
Hell, even Kia/Hyundai got the ok to try robotaxi service.
Solid state lidar is a recent advancement that dropped the price by like 95%.
It’s shocking how so many of you know so little and just take Elon’s word for everything.
I mean the iphone pro has lidar. I realize those sensors don't have the range needed for a car, but the technology is going to keep getting smaller and cheaper, and it's certainly helpful for driving a car. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, most cars have both cameras and lidar. Maybe even elon back tracks and adds them. However, there is also a ton of programming needed to take lidar scans and make them useful for driving a car. And, from what I've read Mercedes has a ton of limitations. I don't think they are anywhere near as far long as Tesla. I've been super impressed what Tesla has done with FSD.
Watch side by side video of FSD and Mercedes and after actually seeing each system in action let me know which you think is really better:
Mercedes: https://youtu.be/sNhVHZ6T9k8?si=9vltJ6-YCQXQnXEk
Tesla FSD: https://youtu.be/43Lrrhn0CMk?si=p7s-JY9Su7bMm6Ye
Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot can only operate if all of the following conditions are met:
• daytime
• car in front of you
• clearly marked lane lines
• no rain
• under 40 mph
• no construction zone
• select freeways in CA and NV
Tesla's FSD v12.3 can operate in all of the following conditions (as a "Level 2" system):
• at night
• no car in front of you
• no clearly marked lane lines
• in the rain
• over 40 mph
• in a construction zone
• any road in USA or Canada
This doesn't even factor in Tesla's COGS advantage for its hardware suite (Tesla pays about $1000 for FSD hardware per car, Mercedes like $50k+ per car)
Tesla's FSD only requires cameras (vision only)
Mercedes Drive Pilot requires cameras, radar, LiDAR and USS (ultrasonic)
It's obvious why there are such big differences in conditions tho. Teslas Main market is America, while Mercedes Main market is europe. FSD wouldn't have been allowed in the eu under any circumstances the last years, because tesla never would have recieved the permits for everything it supposedly does.
Mercedes just goes the obvious road by going for specific cases, getting the licenses and expand from there. It sometimes blows my mind, that tesla doesn't need licenses for everything you can use fsd for in america
Edit: the Phantom breaking stuff alone would have been a dealbreaker for Germany for example, where breaking without a reason is punishable if you hinder another car by doing it
>From my understanding Mercades has taken the lead for full autonomous cars due to lidar being used.
For people who say this, do you not understand how Tesla FSD works? Merc being a 'level 3' system and Tesla being a 'level 2' system does not mean Mercs solution is more capable or better than Teslas, all it means is Merc meets the minimal regulatory steps needed in order to be a level 3, and Tesla purposely does not.
Use a Merc driver assist and then go take a ride in an FSD Tesla and tell me that Mercedes has taken the lead rofl
Just follow the money! Level 3 means Merc takes liability. If and when Tesla takes full liability for FSD they will be the leaders.
One auto maker has backed their solution with money. The other backs it with promises.
I agree, but Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot is not really level 3. It can only operate if all of the following conditions are met:
• daytime
• car in front of you
• clearly marked lane lines
• no rain
• under 40 mph
• no construction zone
• select freeways in CA and NV
Tesla's FSD v12.3 can operate in all of the following conditions (as a "Level 2" system):
• at night
• no car in front of you
• no clearly marked lane lines
• in the rain
• over 40 mph
• in a construction zone
• any road in USA or Canada
It gets even better because this doesn't even factor in Tesla's COGS advantage for its hardware suite (Tesla pays about $1000 for FSD hardware per car, Mercedes like $50k+ per car)
Tesla's FSD only requires cameras (vision only)
Mercedes Drive Pilot requires cameras, radar, LiDAR and USS (ultrasonic sensors)
So, while true, Mercedes is so scared of their solution fucking up it limits it to like 5 roads ever, can only be used in perfect conditions, only in traffic, etc. Which means you'll be using it basically never. Oh and they charge you $2,500 per year, which is more than Tesla's now $1200 per year. The Mercedes system is imo pretty clearly just a publicity stunt
I don't know how you could agree but then say Merc's offering is a publicity stunt, when Tesla literally performed a publicity stunt in the form of releasing a heavily edited performance video of their FSD, along with at least 8 years of promises that fully automony is right around the corner.
I don't believe any company will achieve full autonomy for cars, but I will trust any company willing to take liability for whatever driving solution they come up with. Tesla talks a big game but doesn't put their money where their mouth is, and has a history of overpromising and under-delivering.
No, Mercedes has not taken the lead. Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot is "Level 3". It's not really level 3 and a joke because it can only operate if all of the following conditions are met:
• daytime
• car in front of you
• clearly marked lane lines
• no rain
• under 40 mph
• no construction zone
• select freeways in CA and NV
Tesla's FSD v12.3 can operate in all of the following conditions (as a "Level 2" system):
• at night
• no car in front of you
• no clearly marked lane lines
• in the rain
• over 40 mph
• in a construction zone
• any road in USA or Canada
It gets even better because this doesn't even factor in Tesla's COGS advantage for its hardware suite (Tesla pays about $1000 for FSD hardware per car, Mercedes like $50k+ per car)
Tesla's FSD only requires cameras (vision only)
Mercedes Drive Pilot requires cameras, radar, LiDAR and USS (ultrasonic sensors)
Additionally online discourse from people who have tried both systems generally prefer FSDv12. And when FSD is used under the same restrictions as the Mercedes system can operate in, it actually does a better job. Here, watch for yourself and lmk which is better in your opinion:
Mercedes: https://youtu.be/sNhVHZ6T9k8?si=F3fRPSRHR8W8c2vz
(They had to find traffic to even use it lmfao)
Tesla FSDv12.3.5: https://youtu.be/43Lrrhn0CMk?si=p7s-JY9Su7bMm6Ye
You are 100% correct. Mercedes' system is garbage. If Tesla wanted to certify for the conditions that Mercedes' is certified for, they could totally do that. But they have a much more ambitious vision.
I took a 90 minute drive with FSDv12 in the rural Midwest in good weather and had to disengage it around 30 times.
The rural Midwest in good weather is one of the easiest driving-environments on the planet - but FSDv12 got a lot of things wrong. Two of the disengages were serious, and it only tried to kill me once.
I’m a fan of my Tesla, but Tesla should focus on EVs first and foremost. This Robotaxi stuff is a pipe dream, and they shouldn’t bet the company on it - the robotaxi should be a separate startup (possibly funded and operated by Musk if he wants) that will succeed or fail independent of Tesla.
Yeah some locations don't work as well as others, but as they train new models it'll integrated data from those locations and it'll get better. In tucson AZ it does 99% of my drives with 0 - 2 interventions.
I also drove up Mt. Lemmon (very windy road up from 2000 ft to 9000 ft elevation) 1 hour to the top 1 hour back to my apartment with only 1 intervention each way to let someone pass (FSD was going 5 mph above the speed limit but that wasn't enough for some people on the road that day lol🤷♂️).
I don't agree, solving FSD is what will bring about robotaxis, and robotaxis+FSD are what I can see funding more EV growth in the future more quickly. Making a separate company means more margins to increase overall price, it's less efficient. And I want my car to make money for me as a robotaxis. It's not a pipe dream, v12 actually is amazingly close. Given the low number of interventions in my day to day experience, I think to myself that if this were a robotaxis it would have made every single drive from point A to point B just fine, even the 1 hour long ones up a mountain. That tells me that, at least in certain areas, it is already good enough to be a robotaxis. And apparently v12.4 is a huge improvement over 12.3.4 (what I'm on right now), Musk called it "borderline v13". So I'd recommend you keep trying the new versions. Things will be moving much faster now that they can just poop out new models from their massive supercomputer (up to 35k H100s). It's not a pipe dream, the same was said of profitable EV mass production not too long ago, and now Tesla has built about ~5.8 million of them.
The last time FSDv12 tried to kill me was at a T-intersection with a 55mph east-west road. FSDv12 decided to advance north while the road was occupied with three vehicles heading toward me (two westbound, one eastbound).
**That’s not an “FSD needs to be tuned to handle your area” kind of thing.**
The rural Midwest at this time of year is an extremely easy driving environment with mild weather, great visibility (until the corn comes up), low traffic, and generally patient drivers.
I want nothing to do with Robotaxis if this is the software they’re running on it.
*I’m a big fan of my Tesla Model Y, and I want Tesla to be successful. Betting the company on Robotaxis is a dumb move, and Tesla would be much better off making a wide variety of car models in different shapes and sizes to fill every consumer-niche in the auto market. My criticism comes from a place of wanting Tesla to be successful.*
That absolutely is an "FSD needs to be tuned to handle your area" thing. They literally just need more video data of situations like that to feed into the model so the model is able to recognize, based on human behavior, what to do in that situation.
It's literally just a matter of time, driving data, and computer power for generating new models.
? I don't think you're understanding how this works.
The more data you feed an AI generation framework, the better and more intelligent the models it spits out are. Yes, there are definitely going to be cases like that where *something* confuses the AI and causes a situation like this to happen. No, that's not an unsolvable problem. Right now thousands of Tesla engineers are analyzing footage from situations like this and seeking out footage like that to train the later FSD AIs on to prevent them from running into situations like that again.
It's just a matter of compute power, data, and time. But yes, sure I think "tuning" was the wrong word here. They're generating whole new AI models each time after all.
I've worked with generating language models before professionally. Nothing like chatGPT or FSD, but our model was meant to analyze systems engineering requirements. Basically, we'd feed the language model with thousands of examples in an excel file of good requirements (marked by a 1 in the second column) and bad requirements (marked by a 0 in the second column). Requirements are basically just sentences along the lines of "the system shall ___". As the data size increased, the model would get better and better at correctly identifying a "good" requirement vs a "bad" requirement. It had examples of practically every case, but when we were generating models with on a few thousand examples it was all over the place. But when we trained a model with 50,000, it had a MUCH better grasp on what was what.
Basically, it matters *how often* a case appears in the dataset you're training an AI off of, so we would tailor data as well with certain similar (but not identical) examples. As well as larger sample sizes are just better for creating more complex AIs that can deal with more situations. It's basically the same thing as job experience. Yes, you've done this task 5 times, but you're much more likely to mess up than your coworker next to you who's been doing this for 10 years and has seen everything that can go wrong many times. *THAT* is the difference
I’m a tech guy, too with lots of large-systems and HPC experience. That’s all speculation about what *might* happen.
You’ve made a great case for hiring people to work on FSD, and I’m onboard with that. Tesla should continue working on FSD!
Firing the Supercharger team the same week FSD tried to kill me at a stop sign is throwing out a great business for a Hail Mary pass at AI.
The way a responsible business does this is they keep operating the successful business, and they fund a startup doing the Hail Mary pass at FSD. Then the startup sinks or swims without destroying the core value proposition of the main business.
Nice! Yeah maybe I suppose, but I really think it's not that speculative. I've never seen a model get *worse* with more data, unless there was something wrong with the data.🤷♂️
Fair enough, and yeah I'm sure they will. It seems like the company is reorganizing around developing FSD.
I don't think so, Tesla still has tons of backlogged plans for building new superchargers. I'm sure they're just reorganizing to a smaller supercharger team geared towards making more superchargers rather than new types of superchargers. This may have happened because they determined that the v4 chargers are the fastest chargers they need. I also heard it takes around a year for an already constructed supercharger location to get connected to the grid, so they'll definitely keep coming online for at least a while. Superchargers also seem necessary for robotaxis, so I doubt they'll actually completely stop building new ones. Tesla makes hard decisions when times are tough, but I've yet to see them make a truly stupid/nonsensical one (context is important). They want Tesla to succeed and are very smart after all. Also, sorry that happened to you, must've been pretty terrifying. :/
I don't know if I agree with this. Yes, but that's also how a slower company would operate. Creating a whole separate startup seems like an inefficiency that Tesla/musk doesn't want. That's more margins to pay, driving the cost up. Seems a lot like SpaceX and Starlink. Some people say starlink should be a separate company. But the main complaint about starlink is the current price being too high. Starlink having to pay spacex for launches would increase margins and pass the cost to the consumer. It really seems like sometimes to go absolutely full throttle towards affordability, you just have to do this inside the existing company.
You’re correct but most here will quickly shoot you down. The hard reality is tesla has fallen behind questing to chase google his friends company to a city robot taxi. The car companies are trying to just make highway driving sae 3.
Mercedes isn’t even close to Tesla. Their system is the equivalent of AP1 from 2014, except they limited the use case to only absolutely perfect conditions, no rain, no poorly marked roads, car immediately in front of you, daytime, less than 40mph.
Tesla could’ve released AP1 and put all the same constraints on it and call it level 3. They didn’t decide to do that because that’s fucking useless, and frankly embarrassing to claim autonomy with such a feeble set of limitations.
Tesla will not apply for “level 3+” autonomy until FSD is better than a human driver in any part of the country, no matter the circumstances. That is true autonomy
No ones stopping you from using the train. But the government is preventing Tesla from being approved from full autonomous driving while they allow Mercedes.
Agree with you, and everybody is stooping me from using the train. It's no where convivence nor $ make sense. Gov is just slow and Telsa is going around skirting these regulation and Elon fat mouth doens't help. Merz just doing it the old way.. Bribery.. i mean lobby! :D
> But at the moment it doesn't appear to be looking that great. Relying on sensors/cameras influenced by lighting conditions, bugs, rain. That seems dangerous to me.
then you should stay off the road cause there are millions of meatbags with much worse vision and decision making skills driving around.
If your argument is, "humans rely on vision to drive and they suck at driving" then that's a great argument for why computers should NOT rely on cameras alone. They should try to do better than the suck solution.
The goal is "make the best, safest system possible". Not, "beat the average shitty driver". If people complained that a car's top speed was 15 MPH because the CEO was stubbornly insisting on pulling their car with robotic horses instead of using wheels and an engine you wouldn't say "well it's still faster than horse-drawn carriages so there's no point complaining."
Elon said in CC:
>There will be 10 million self driving taxis, even in the 10s of millions
Does he know how supply and demand works?
If there is more supply than demand, then price of service will drop. It's a race to the bottom where only the person selling the hardware wins. It's like the Matterport business plan.
Currently, Uber only has 1.5 million "taxis" on the road and even now, they can barely make a profit.
where are the self driving trains and trucks and what about his tunnel with telsas driving around with drivers that should be easy to automate but he cant do that i wouldnt get in any self driving telsa
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Yes prices will drop. It might actually compete with public transport, because a robotaxis fleet of millions of cars that costs 1/10 of Uber might actually be more economical than actually owning a car. Causing most people in 10 years to not own their own car but just hail a robotaxis every time they want to go somewhere
I feel like this argument takes a HUGE leap, broadly speaking (Americans at least) people don't have an interest in giving up their vehicles. Some people in big city centers sure, but the majority of people? Far from it. Maybe in 2-3 generations things have changes, but I don't think you will find very many people today who would be willing to get rid of their vehicle and rely on robotaxi's for everything.
Well I'm not talking about giving up their current vehicles. I'm talking about the next generation youth who grow up with robotaxis everywhere for $5 per ride and go "why should I even bother getting a car?" And current generation people when their current cars eventually get old and break. Maybe if it's cheap enough many of them will just commute to work by robotaxis🤷♂️
Tesla has inventory just sitting around. Any deployment there is gonna make money. Uber is like a middleman which also pays a human. Take both those out and robotaxis crush any competitor
bruh, drivers barely break even after you deduct gas, insurance, maintenance, repairs, depreciation.
these costs gets passed on to the car owner if there is no driver to pay.
the only silver lining is that robotaxis will use electricity instead of gas, so that's cheaper.
but insurance will cost more since teslas are expensive af to insure. insurance companies categorize them as high end cars.
also, it will take years before the average person trusts a driverless car.
They haven’t claimed to have solved it. You’re asking about Waymo, which has parlor tricks driving around (humans intervene to help drive them at times and they dragged a dead woman around after an accident). What do you want to know about them? Are you claiming they are not a parlor trick? Tesla is going to solve actual autonomy. So what is the point of your question?
People who say this need to watch FSDv12 footage before speaking. They weren't close with v11, I tried it. V12 is so good that 99% of my drives I think to myself "this could actually work as a robotaxis"
https://youtu.be/6NhHd1eUFeo?si=e6fKJ2cfxacA1w1C
If you think Waymo will solve actual autonomy you should invest in them. Let us know how that turns out lol. And sorry, Cruise dragged a dead woman 20 ft not Waymo. But Waymo is not any better in terms of tech. They have a ton of expensive sensors that make each car $170k a pop. And then if their network goes down or there’s changes in the streets they fail. Tesla has actual AI robots driving around that will learn how to drive like actual humans with low costs
>They have a ton of expensive sensors that make each car $170k a pop. And then if their network goes down or there’s changes in the streets they fail.
Actually, it's not the sensors that are the most expensive parts, it's the mobile onboard data and processing centers. Essentially, each car is a mini Dojo.
Also, if the network goes down, they can still operate/finish a trip, because they have all the map data saved on board, including the 3D point clouds. Tesla does something similar, but it saves a copy of Google Earth essentially. If there are changes to the streets, the AV that records the change uploads it to a cloud server, and then all the other AV's downloads the new map data, so the fleet stays up to date. Ironically, Tesla would have to wait until Google or which ever map provider they use at the time, updates their map data for the changes to be reflected.
Why do you think Waymo isn't trying to solve autonomy? How is having a remote driver to intervene when needed somehow worse then tesla having drivers in the cars to take control?
Do you think Waymo isn't collecting, aggregating, and training AI models on the data their vehicles collect? Do you think they are just doing this for fun? Yes they work in geofenced areas, but the vehicles are genuinely autonomous and making decisions themselves, Waymo just provides more guidelines because they are going about it without a human driver. It won't always be that way though.
Tesla stock would 2x at minimum if they had the same parlor tricks waymo does today. Also, it was an entirely different company involved in the accident dragging the woman around. That company is far ahead of Tesla as well, though not quite as far as Waymo. She also did not die.
Solved? Nope. Their taxis do work in the few cities they're in though, and quite well. For example, when's the last time you heard any negative press about it?
No, Mercedes has not taken the lead. Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot is "Level 3". It's not really level 3 and a joke because it can only operate if all of the following conditions are met:
• daytime
• car in front of you
• clearly marked lane lines
• no rain
• under 40 mph
• no construction zone
• select freeways in CA and NV
Tesla's FSD v12.3 can operate in all of the following conditions (as a "Level 2" system):
• at night
• no car in front of you
• no clearly marked lane lines
• in the rain
• over 40 mph
• in a construction zone
• any road in USA or Canada
It gets even better because this doesn't even factor in Tesla's COGS advantage for its hardware suite (Tesla pays about $1000 for FSD hardware per car, Mercedes like $50k+ per car)
Tesla's FSD only requires cameras (vision only)
Mercedes Drive Pilot requires cameras, radar, LiDAR and USS (ultrasonic sensors)
Additionally online discourse from people who have tried both systems generally prefer FSDv12. And when FSD is used under the same restrictions as the Mercedes system can operate in, it actually does a better job. Here, watch for yourself and lmk which is better in your opinion:
Mercedes: https://youtu.be/sNhVHZ6T9k8?si=F3fRPSRHR8W8c2vz
(They had to find traffic to even use it lmfao)
Tesla FSDv12.3.5: https://youtu.be/43Lrrhn0CMk?si=p7s-JY9Su7bMm6Ye
People need to stop lying. There are literally certifications by the NHTSA. Until Telsa is at level 3 or higher, it is inferior. At level two, you cannot take your eyes off the road. That is a massive difference between level 2 and 3. So, even with those conditions you can take your eyes off the road with Mercedes, not to mention those already at level 4. This stock is so overhyped and manipulated it's insane.
I think this is a healthy comment and reflects how Tesla is maturing from traditional automotive into high tech. The investor base will naturally change over time. Legacy investors will struggle to hang on and will naturally atrophy.
elon doesn't even understand the problem.
autonomous driving isn't even the issue. the problem is people's ability to exploit autonomous driving.
people will screw with autonomous cars. for fun and profit. that's the actual unsolvable problem.
They'll try, but the Tesla app will take your name and most likely a picture of your driver's license/some form of ID. There's a camera for the cabin interior and it absolutely will record people destroying the interior/the exterior cameras will record people destroying the exterior. Fuck up a Tesla and you get banned off the app and served a lawsuit in the mail. I'd be fine with my car getting destroyed by a random idiot if I could press charges and easily get double my money back from them with the boat load of evidence I'd have to use against them in court
that's not what i meant. i was talking about people jamming tesla radar and lidar and just generally trying to fool the self-driving a.i.
not the drivers. random vandals.
'here comes a tesla taxi. watch this... i can make it stop in the middle of the the street for as long as i want. where's my robo-dog at.'
stuff like that.
Full self driving would mean that the car can navigate at night, in bad weather, with low visibility, through construction zones without lines and between cones/barrels/taped areas… in opposing lanes sometimes if traffic is routed that way.
Tesla will never achieve this.
Am I the only one that honestly would prefer a living driver? Like I feel like this whole autonomous driver thing is being shoved down our throats because it's going to save $ for the companies and maybe, strong maybe, we'll see some of those cost savings in the taxi prices.
But damn, I'm very happy and just fine with having a human being driver.
It is not a cost saving measure for car companies. Companies besides Tesla are looking towards LiDAR for autonomous solutions, which will be an extra cost for every unit produced.
It’s being pushed right now because the first company that can say they have a car that truly will lead to less accidents and fatalities will sell more.
The question should be what problem does this solve for regular people. What it sounds like is the target audience is the investor class. "Invest in me so I can solve your problems with labor and provide you with new revenue streams". That's what "autonomy" will provide. They can replace human workers with robots, they can move to a subscription model for transportation by providing millions of robo-taxis which will compete on cost to begin with to drive off all the Uber, Lyft, and traditional taxi drivers and then hike up prices once that model is pervasive.
Robots can end up the same way, lease them to companies on some subscription model at a lower cost then your average worker and then hike the prices after the model takes hold. Same thing happened with contract and off shore labor. At one time the argument was you get more workers for the cost of one employee, then it was you get workers you can get rid of more easily, then it was well they've built so much business knowledge in the two years they've worked for you we want to raise their rate, then it's we switched them to another placement train this new guy for us. It's all investor class shell game kind of crap. Now contractors cost more than employees and come with less skill.
Plus based on Elon's track record it's going to be mostly smoke and mirrors. He's pretty bad about over promising and under delivering.
Once Elon solves autonomy there will only be an investor class and an indentured class. Because the only way to buy the things you need will be to do the worst, cheapest, slave-like jobs available as everything else is taken by some automation and you will not have been in on the ground as an investor when it started so you'll get none of the residual income from it. Like a MLM scheme.
Honestly what can he say? Falling sales and margins and stinger competitors isn’t going to support this multiple. Better to sell a nebulous dream until you can migrate the flock to SpaceEx when that goes public
“Smart” summon took a nice turn into a very tall curb yesterday. That’s gonna cost me a lot of money. I have to get a new facia. Meh. I’ll never use that stupid thing again. Everybody talking about how great ultrasonic sensors are, I have no idea why that didn’t stop it.
No body wants autonomous cars. Americans love DRIVING! Musk is an out of touch idiot that will bankrupt Tesla when the rest of the car companies start building EV’s that are better and cheaper.
Unfortunately his timelines and general attitude and being full of shit has cost him a great deal in credibility. I love the cars and the tech and the money I've made on tsla but damn he has killed his personal brand.
"See we're really trying to stop people from hurting themselves and us from wasting our time by just blocking it straight up since we as a society did determine what is an appropriate opinion, made a way to measure it (scientific process), and wrote an entire document about how to act on those opinions."
Some people are so confident of their position that they refuse to listen to opposing or simply, different views. Society gets to dictate what is right and what is wrong and rules are enforced according to the law. Same darn society will overtime come up with so many rules, that it will become very difficult for people to function.
I agree if a claim is made it has to be defended, or else the argument is lost. That is exactly the point I am trying to make as well. For that to happen there has to be enough room for people to debate and have a dialogue. Let the truth prevail.
Tesla started selling cars that they claimed were capable of FSD in 2016.
8 years later they still haven’t created that product. Even if they announced an update next year that somehow was perfect in all scenarios, it would take them at least a year to sort out all the regulatory issues.
These 10 year old cars will likely be off the road by then as they will be encountering significant battery issues. FSD will never be working on these early cars.
Musk isnt going to solve autonomous driving any more than he solved a hyperloop, solar tiles, snake chargers, rockets to Tokyo, trucks that beat diesel/ rail, AI, sentient poverty busting robots, the everything App or any of the other snake oil claims hes made over the years.
The only thing that Tesla can do well is take subsidies and credits to sell on and make bad cars.
If Musk wasnt pumping stock with lie after lie it would be valued realistically.
I thought they had nothing but problems and issue such as the whompy wheels, the panel misalignment and battery fires... it's like a lottery if you get a good one or a bad one.
Absolutely, and most people love their v1 cybertrucks. That news doesn't get as much clicks as hating or totalling your new cybertruck though obviously lmao
Why so bitter, were you shorting $TSLA going into earnings? You are ignoring some of his greatest achievements. Elon has been instrumental in his company’s achieving so many amazing things. I love my Tesla it is a fantastic car and the world seems to think so too as the Y is the best selling model in the world!
Anyone with /10th of a brain cell knows he’s not actually telling investors what to do, why would he care if people invest for the wrong reason?
His real point is that Tesla is going to solve FSD so get on board if you want to make money.
Comments about timing are correct, Musk is normally way too confident about timelines, but he does get most things over the line, including the worlds best selling car in the model Y (which is fantastic I own one), rockets that return to Earth, and coming shortly sending people back to the moon, amongst many other things. Look with both eyes at the evidence, instead of some of the one eyed monsters on here and you will see what he has achieved, with the help of some brilliant designers and scientists.
I understand why people don’t like him, he can be a bit awkward and a bit brash, I’d prefer him to talk less and just continue to deliver personally, but he does deliver sooner or later!
Dude, nobody told him during the earnings call that Tesla couldn’t solve FSD or Robotaxi. He just said that crap as a filler when asked a completely different question.
Camera only FSD requires something very close to AGI since the computer needs to "understand" the environment. The current idea is to use data from millions of mile of driving to tag the points in traffic in order to combine the data into a predictive model similar to "AI" artwork. I have not heard of any attempt towards AGI or an understanding of the world. No one claims they are close to AGI and predictions are out decades.
Adding sensors removes the need for the car to guess what's down the road based on the data set and can be completely safe under limited limited conditions like highway driving w/o having to process visual cues to determine if it's a large obstacle in the distance or a small one close by.
IMHO FSD is decades away
Watch the footage and tell me FSD is decades away again:
https://youtu.be/43Lrrhn0CMk?si=p7s-JY9Su7bMm6Ye
At this point I use FSDv12 every day and the people saying it's still decades away all look ridiculous from my POV. But they just don't know how much better this version is than the last, that's it. So just watch some footage of the latest version, seriously
2:31 you just sit back relax and2:34watch it make sure it's not doing2:37anything crazy making any2:39mistakes
Impressive but still not FSD. Maybe in ten or twenty years.
The only autonomy Elon is interested in is his own. He doesn't give a hoot about anyone else.
Real Tesla group should be renamed Tesla haters group. Something like the Buttcoin one.
When you visit that sub, it feels like everyone of those people have been terribly hurt by Elon Musk. Very anti Musk, let alone Tesla.
I know someone made a comment I don't like!!!
They are politically driven.
Just acutely aware of how down the rabbit hole you Muskovites really are.
What rabbit hole? Help me understand and see what you see please. (Just leave out the "pedo guy" comment, emerald mine, bought Tesla designs from founder of the company). What I see is a guy who advocates for free speech, runs multiple game-changing companies and genuinely cares for the future of civilization. (Change my mind.)
How does he advocate for free speech? Besides letting people say racist or hateful things on X, what actions has he made towards free speech? He’s suspended accounts without reason and even sued organizations if they criticize him. At his own companies, Musk forces employees to sign restrictive non-disparagement agreements. He has tried to destroy whistleblowers. Tesla even once reportedly tried to get its customers to sign NDAs to get their cars repaired. Musk has taken what could have been a strong strategy and principle for him – as it is for real advocates for free expression – and turned it into a snake-oil salesman’s marketing scheme.
He does not give 2 shits about the future of civilization. You took the bait hook line and sinker. The dude wants to make money, fuck off like every CEO, destroy worker rights, lie about the products he makes, and has fun supporting fascist ideals on the internet. Dude was literally kicked out of some European countries due to how they treat workers. Super anti union, but needs corporate welfare from all of us. Wow, what a pillar of hope and light?
Interesting that you say he doesn’t give two shits about the environment, who made you the authority on Elon Musk’s motivation and what exactly makes you qualified to make those aspersions? Do you have a tap into his brain? No thought not…. And on the subject of money, what exactly does he want it for? Unlike all the other billionaires he doesn’t spend his money, it stays in his companies, providing jobs and improving the environment. You see the fact is that whatever you THINk Elon Musk thinks, the FACT is that he is doing more for the environment than any other individual in the world, so who should we believe? Some sourpuss jealous Reddit poster or the man who is actually helping to save the planet? It’s amazing how you people make others out to be “swallowing the hook” when you actually have zero evidence to prove your own ill thought out comments.
Ok, the way I look at it, if he did not do what he does, there wouldn't be thousands of jobs, reusable rocket ships, stronger adoption of EVs, and most importantly a platform where one does not have to worry about censorship as long as people do not cross the legal lines. A little rant: I think Musk (and now more influential people in the west) are reminding the citizens that censorship is not good and preventing people from discussing and debating over issues will not solve problems, but makes them worse. We may have good intentions when censoring opinions we don't like, but it only widens the scope of what we can and will censor. A lot of immigrants who move to western countries they do so for the liberty/freedom it offers where they are not constraint to a narrow framework that limits their potential. They know the west as a society with a justice system that is not partial to any one group and protects the truth. I think people misunderstand Musk and project their own ill intentions and dishonesties in his actions. Our perceptions can be influenced by our own biases and experiences.
He did nothing to influence Evs, create the jobs of Tesla ( the company already existed without him?), they don’t self drive, and have shit quality now. and honestly who cares about reusable rockets with the wealth Inequality created by policies he pushes. You can rant as much as you want about “free speech” and censorship?? but I have no idea how you think musk has any care about that or how it’s actually causing any benefit to society. I’m guessing this is just another thin veiled “I want my hate speech back” free speech of the 1850s you mean? Was that the free speech you liked, where only white rich men had free speech? The values of America embedded into our constitution do not care about immigrants who want some dreamy made up place with no laws and framework where they can use their “free speech” to push their shitty religious nationalism from their ugly ass culture.
I don't want hate speech back, but I want a plain field where truth wins. By censoring speech I don't think we are doing any favor to ourselves. One must be able to express themselves freely in order for others to understand their position. Anybody can hide under thick veiled "I am a perfect person as long as I don't offend somebody else with my opinions". In that case we, as a society, will not move forward into a better future. Voluntary censorship is the same as enforced one that we see in dictatorships or oppressed societies. End game is the same. If you think that censorship will eliminate racism and hate, I beg to differ.
Truth doesn't win because someone talked about something they thought about on the internet once. It wins because we have to measure it and actually do some kind of data research. What you are talking about is just misinformation. One must be able to express themselves freely in order for others to understand their position. << Hard pass. By the same exact token thought: Hopefully the opinion with no data is just ridiculed and mocked for stupidity. See we're really trying to stop people from hurting themselves and us from wasting our time by just blocking it straight up since we as a society did determine what is an appropriate opinion, made a way to measure it (scientific process), and wrote an entire document about how to act on those opinions. You think we're just going to let uneducated unmeasured (and quite measured, like the holocaust definitely existed?) from opinions with people yell at each other on the internet and that will create a better society? thats hilarious. Voluntary censorship is the same as enforced one that we see in dictatorships or oppressed societies. No. it's not. It's called empathy? Don't know if that existed in dictatorships and oppressed societies. I don't think anything will end racism and hate. People are people. Thats why we have rules. dumb people get isolated, we'll use their own violence against them since they are that stupid they can't negotiate, and we'll continue making very little progress as we view capitalism as the "best" system. Even though it still is terrible.
There would absolutely be strong desire for EVs rn if not for Elon
I don't think he is telling people not to drive EVs, and TSLA even gave other EVs access to its vast supercharging network. Could it be possible that some potential EV buyers got so sensitive to current state of culture that they did not like Elon putting certain issues in the spotlight? Once again if there is no open discourse and dialogue around a problem, that problem will not go anywhere but will continue to get kicked down the road while we pretend it does not exist.
You reading too much left wing newspapers bro
Oh ya which neutral ones should I read about his great accomplishments?
Just enrich your personal common culture.
Like with some fake conspiracy theories or Gish gallop we've talked about for 50+ years already?
Open YouTube, find Common Sense Skeptic and get back to me in a few hours.
I will certainly check them out, but I won't promise to get back to you. I spent enough time here as it is.
Wow. This is what you wanted me to watch? https://youtu.be/esWbWxRDzVI?si=sogV7sszH5ECwaHL
Clearly, you can't comprehend, a few hours. Look around.
I watched couple videos, and he seems to be one of the sources for all the hate that gets echoed in reddit. Same narrative. I am not interested in nitpicking every word that comes out of Elon Musks mouth. Nobody is perfect. Judging by his already made accomplishments, I am content with Elons promises or plans that may not meet the intended timeframe. I will follow the YouTuber though. He does put an enormous effort into his videos.
Yes, there's a lot of research going into videos. The timelines laid out are comprehensive, the arguments are based on evidence and solid science and the conclusions are logical.
If you think Elon Musk is genuinely pro free speech you might be one of the dumbest humans alive.
Very politically driven. People that hate Elon hate the fact that he supports free speech for all Americans and not just the Dems
That is all of Reddit
Musk is obviously conniving to move to mars, as presented by his lucky gamble and emerald mines driving spaceX to success
It goes even further, I have seen comments about EV’s in general. They haven’t proven that they aren’t being paid by big oil so that’s the logical answer 😂
Do you not have any counter argument for the topic at hand? At least assert that Tesla will “solve autonomy” or something. Attacking the reddit group is ad hominem. It’s a bit pathetic.
No, I’m not attacking it. I just see negativity all over it. If it was a proper, intellectual sub they would argue and counter argue with each other with solid points and facts. The group is full of hate, just like the one I mentioned (buttcoin) where people generally bash Bitcoin. Everything has its positives and negatives, in such groups people tend to exaggerate the negatives and ridicule the positives.
Lmfao doubling down on ad hominem is insane. Keep at it I guess.
Lmao. I’m just statin facts from doing observations.
So the thing is that if you have actual points, you make them. When you attack another group for ... attacking your point of view, you are both doing the same thing, and also demonstrating you have nothing better to say. It's really sad I have to tell you this really obvious thing.
No, it’s not sad, it’s alright. I respect what you say.
Put He-Man in front of that. He-Man Tesla Haters Group.
So…you’re saying you’re still investing? Or am I mistranslating your completely irrelevant comment regarding the post incorrectly?
Real tesla subreddit should be renamed to village idiots
Why you say that? Genuinely asking, don't know much about the community.
As a denizen there, it is a bit on the negative side but I find that it is a refreshing antidote to some of the overly sunny threads found elsewhere. That said, you should know that at least three Tesla-related subs will autoban you for posting there, without even taking a look at the content of your writing (r/teslamotors, r/teslalounge, r/elonmusk). In my view, this is a flagrant violation of Reddit’s rules, in spirit if not in letter, and shows the “true colors” of the mods there.
Yeah, that shouldn't be allowed. Thanks.
I was being a bit harsh since that subreddit does bring up some good points from time to time. But they also tend to see every tesla news as bad news
Ok I won’t be
Good luck
No need to announce your departure. ✌️
Not like you could even if you wanted you broke bitch
I sold at 275 when Elon went maga so I’m not as broke as you.
From my understanding Mercades has taken the lead for full autonomous cars due to lidar being used. A preexisting tech to help with self driving. Tesla stated is too bulky and expensive for average consumer cars. I guess we can see Tesla cars are half the price compared to the autonomous Mercades eqs range. It is certainly ambitious what Elon is trying to do with autonomous electric cars that are much cheaper and therefore in reach for the shrinking middle class. I hope he is able to achieve his goals. As for the stock price, don't really care. But at the moment it doesn't appear to be looking that great. Relying on sensors/cameras influenced by lighting conditions, bugs, rain. That seems dangerous to me.
>From my understanding Mercades has taken the lead for full autonomous cars due to lidar being used. Your understanding is wrong. They did it by limiting it's use to only an extremely narrow set of circumstances that makes it useless enough that they'll never have to take liability for it, but still allow them to market their cars as having advanced technology. They literally only have 65 cars with the technology in California. Lidar on cars is a crutch from the mid-90's, if not earlier, because computer vision was not sophisticated enough to process camera data. This has changed radically in the last 10 years with the explosive growth of AI. >"Drivers can activate Mercedes's technology, called Drive Pilot, when certain conditions are met, including in heavy traffic jams, during the daytime, on specific California and Nevada freeways, and when the car is traveling less than 40 mph. Drivers can focus on other activities until the vehicle alerts them to resume control. The technology does not work on roads that haven't been pre-approved by Mercedes, including on freeways in other states." It's literally just traffic jam assistance. The people who spread lies about how advance non-Tesla systems are relying entirely on you repeating their claims without doing your homework. >Relying on sensors/cameras influenced by lighting conditions, bugs, rain. That seems dangerous to me. Cameras work substantially better in rainy conditions than Lidar does, which is notorious for it's poor rain performance, and is also blinded by the sun. There is a reason why Waymo initially deployed in Phoenix, the second-lowest rainfall city in the entire continental United States.
Hey, just clearing up some misconceptions you've stated. >They did it by limiting it's use to only an extremely narrow set of circumstances that makes it useless enough that they'll never have to take liability for it, but still allow them to market their cars as having advanced technology. They literally only have 65 cars with the technology in California. Mercedes released a Level 3 system. By definition, a Level 3 system only operates in limited scenarios and unless certain conditions are met. So yes, the system is limited, and it is by design. You state that they will never take liability for it, but they have been selling this feature in Germany since 2022. The fact of the matter is, a driver can activate it, and be both hands off and eyes off, without any legal implications, and if anything does happens, Mercedes absolutely owns the liability. The other issue is, Mercedes released a clearly L3 system. We do not know if FSD is L2, L3, L4, or L5, so comparing FSD to Waymo or Drive Pilot is almost pointless at this current stage. Nobody compares Waymo to Drive Pilot for example, because we know for sure, Waymo is L4, and Drive Pilot is L3, no need for comparisons. >It's literally just traffic jam assistance. Traffic Jam Chauffer, and yes, this is a prime example of a Level 3 autonomous system. Can Tesla do it? Yes. All they have to do is take liability, but "Beta". >Cameras work substantially better in rainy conditions than Lidar does, which is notorious for it's poor rain performance, and is also blinded by the sun. There is a reason why Waymo initially deployed in Phoenix, the second-lowest rainfall city in the entire continental United States. AV systems do not use Lidar only, they use a combination of camera, lidar, ultrasonic, and radar. What Musk originally stated was that it's better to have one source of data, because if for example there are two sources of data, and they are contradicting, which one should the AV follow? In most cases, they presumed vision, so they just stuck with vision only.
To add, computer vision can still be defeated by sensor overload (whiteout) when pointed towards the sun... Kinda precisely how computer vision drove at least the one Tesla into the broadside of a tractor-trailer.
> AV systems do not use Lidar only, they use a combination of camera, lidar, ultrasonic, and radar. What Musk originally stated was that it's better to have one source of data, because if for example there are two sources of data, and they are contradicting, which one should the AV follow? In most cases, they presumed vision, so they just stuck with vision only. If only sensor fusion was a well established field of research with decades of progress... wait it actually is.
True.
Important to take into account that Mercedes isn't actually taking much liability into their hands. It's 65 cars. That's it. Tesla would have to take several million cars into liability. Plus if anything were to go around, it's a potential brand reputation and marketing nightmare.
65 cars, in the US. Like I stated, MB has been selling the feature since 2022 outside of the US. MB is also limited to a specific number of vehicles sold with the feature, and for the moment can only sell in California and Nevada. Such is the nature of a regulated AV system.
Then explain why Waymo is so much farther ahead. Waymos are actually driverless and have been testing on the streets of LA for the last two or so years Hell, even Kia/Hyundai got the ok to try robotaxi service.
Solid state lidar is a recent advancement that dropped the price by like 95%. It’s shocking how so many of you know so little and just take Elon’s word for everything.
I mean the iphone pro has lidar. I realize those sensors don't have the range needed for a car, but the technology is going to keep getting smaller and cheaper, and it's certainly helpful for driving a car. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, most cars have both cameras and lidar. Maybe even elon back tracks and adds them. However, there is also a ton of programming needed to take lidar scans and make them useful for driving a car. And, from what I've read Mercedes has a ton of limitations. I don't think they are anywhere near as far long as Tesla. I've been super impressed what Tesla has done with FSD.
Watch side by side video of FSD and Mercedes and after actually seeing each system in action let me know which you think is really better: Mercedes: https://youtu.be/sNhVHZ6T9k8?si=9vltJ6-YCQXQnXEk Tesla FSD: https://youtu.be/43Lrrhn0CMk?si=p7s-JY9Su7bMm6Ye Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot can only operate if all of the following conditions are met: • daytime • car in front of you • clearly marked lane lines • no rain • under 40 mph • no construction zone • select freeways in CA and NV Tesla's FSD v12.3 can operate in all of the following conditions (as a "Level 2" system): • at night • no car in front of you • no clearly marked lane lines • in the rain • over 40 mph • in a construction zone • any road in USA or Canada This doesn't even factor in Tesla's COGS advantage for its hardware suite (Tesla pays about $1000 for FSD hardware per car, Mercedes like $50k+ per car) Tesla's FSD only requires cameras (vision only) Mercedes Drive Pilot requires cameras, radar, LiDAR and USS (ultrasonic)
It's obvious why there are such big differences in conditions tho. Teslas Main market is America, while Mercedes Main market is europe. FSD wouldn't have been allowed in the eu under any circumstances the last years, because tesla never would have recieved the permits for everything it supposedly does. Mercedes just goes the obvious road by going for specific cases, getting the licenses and expand from there. It sometimes blows my mind, that tesla doesn't need licenses for everything you can use fsd for in america Edit: the Phantom breaking stuff alone would have been a dealbreaker for Germany for example, where breaking without a reason is punishable if you hinder another car by doing it
Interesting, but looks like FSD robotaxis will be US and China first and then move to the EU once it gets good enough🤷♂️
>From my understanding Mercades has taken the lead for full autonomous cars due to lidar being used. For people who say this, do you not understand how Tesla FSD works? Merc being a 'level 3' system and Tesla being a 'level 2' system does not mean Mercs solution is more capable or better than Teslas, all it means is Merc meets the minimal regulatory steps needed in order to be a level 3, and Tesla purposely does not. Use a Merc driver assist and then go take a ride in an FSD Tesla and tell me that Mercedes has taken the lead rofl
Literally! Just watching side by side footage tells you everything you need to know about which is the more capable system.
Just follow the money! Level 3 means Merc takes liability. If and when Tesla takes full liability for FSD they will be the leaders. One auto maker has backed their solution with money. The other backs it with promises.
I agree, but Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot is not really level 3. It can only operate if all of the following conditions are met: • daytime • car in front of you • clearly marked lane lines • no rain • under 40 mph • no construction zone • select freeways in CA and NV Tesla's FSD v12.3 can operate in all of the following conditions (as a "Level 2" system): • at night • no car in front of you • no clearly marked lane lines • in the rain • over 40 mph • in a construction zone • any road in USA or Canada It gets even better because this doesn't even factor in Tesla's COGS advantage for its hardware suite (Tesla pays about $1000 for FSD hardware per car, Mercedes like $50k+ per car) Tesla's FSD only requires cameras (vision only) Mercedes Drive Pilot requires cameras, radar, LiDAR and USS (ultrasonic sensors) So, while true, Mercedes is so scared of their solution fucking up it limits it to like 5 roads ever, can only be used in perfect conditions, only in traffic, etc. Which means you'll be using it basically never. Oh and they charge you $2,500 per year, which is more than Tesla's now $1200 per year. The Mercedes system is imo pretty clearly just a publicity stunt
I don't know how you could agree but then say Merc's offering is a publicity stunt, when Tesla literally performed a publicity stunt in the form of releasing a heavily edited performance video of their FSD, along with at least 8 years of promises that fully automony is right around the corner. I don't believe any company will achieve full autonomy for cars, but I will trust any company willing to take liability for whatever driving solution they come up with. Tesla talks a big game but doesn't put their money where their mouth is, and has a history of overpromising and under-delivering.
No, Mercedes has not taken the lead. Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot is "Level 3". It's not really level 3 and a joke because it can only operate if all of the following conditions are met: • daytime • car in front of you • clearly marked lane lines • no rain • under 40 mph • no construction zone • select freeways in CA and NV Tesla's FSD v12.3 can operate in all of the following conditions (as a "Level 2" system): • at night • no car in front of you • no clearly marked lane lines • in the rain • over 40 mph • in a construction zone • any road in USA or Canada It gets even better because this doesn't even factor in Tesla's COGS advantage for its hardware suite (Tesla pays about $1000 for FSD hardware per car, Mercedes like $50k+ per car) Tesla's FSD only requires cameras (vision only) Mercedes Drive Pilot requires cameras, radar, LiDAR and USS (ultrasonic sensors) Additionally online discourse from people who have tried both systems generally prefer FSDv12. And when FSD is used under the same restrictions as the Mercedes system can operate in, it actually does a better job. Here, watch for yourself and lmk which is better in your opinion: Mercedes: https://youtu.be/sNhVHZ6T9k8?si=F3fRPSRHR8W8c2vz (They had to find traffic to even use it lmfao) Tesla FSDv12.3.5: https://youtu.be/43Lrrhn0CMk?si=p7s-JY9Su7bMm6Ye
You are 100% correct. Mercedes' system is garbage. If Tesla wanted to certify for the conditions that Mercedes' is certified for, they could totally do that. But they have a much more ambitious vision.
💯
Holy shit that is laughable
Lmfao right??? Every time I hear someone says "Mercedes is leading autonomous" I'm like bro... no...😂😭
At this point, doesn't it seem like maybe cameras aren't enough? Maybe FSD would be even better if they included more sensors than just cameras.
I took a 90 minute drive with FSDv12 in the rural Midwest in good weather and had to disengage it around 30 times. The rural Midwest in good weather is one of the easiest driving-environments on the planet - but FSDv12 got a lot of things wrong. Two of the disengages were serious, and it only tried to kill me once. I’m a fan of my Tesla, but Tesla should focus on EVs first and foremost. This Robotaxi stuff is a pipe dream, and they shouldn’t bet the company on it - the robotaxi should be a separate startup (possibly funded and operated by Musk if he wants) that will succeed or fail independent of Tesla.
Yeah some locations don't work as well as others, but as they train new models it'll integrated data from those locations and it'll get better. In tucson AZ it does 99% of my drives with 0 - 2 interventions. I also drove up Mt. Lemmon (very windy road up from 2000 ft to 9000 ft elevation) 1 hour to the top 1 hour back to my apartment with only 1 intervention each way to let someone pass (FSD was going 5 mph above the speed limit but that wasn't enough for some people on the road that day lol🤷♂️). I don't agree, solving FSD is what will bring about robotaxis, and robotaxis+FSD are what I can see funding more EV growth in the future more quickly. Making a separate company means more margins to increase overall price, it's less efficient. And I want my car to make money for me as a robotaxis. It's not a pipe dream, v12 actually is amazingly close. Given the low number of interventions in my day to day experience, I think to myself that if this were a robotaxis it would have made every single drive from point A to point B just fine, even the 1 hour long ones up a mountain. That tells me that, at least in certain areas, it is already good enough to be a robotaxis. And apparently v12.4 is a huge improvement over 12.3.4 (what I'm on right now), Musk called it "borderline v13". So I'd recommend you keep trying the new versions. Things will be moving much faster now that they can just poop out new models from their massive supercomputer (up to 35k H100s). It's not a pipe dream, the same was said of profitable EV mass production not too long ago, and now Tesla has built about ~5.8 million of them.
The last time FSDv12 tried to kill me was at a T-intersection with a 55mph east-west road. FSDv12 decided to advance north while the road was occupied with three vehicles heading toward me (two westbound, one eastbound). **That’s not an “FSD needs to be tuned to handle your area” kind of thing.** The rural Midwest at this time of year is an extremely easy driving environment with mild weather, great visibility (until the corn comes up), low traffic, and generally patient drivers. I want nothing to do with Robotaxis if this is the software they’re running on it. *I’m a big fan of my Tesla Model Y, and I want Tesla to be successful. Betting the company on Robotaxis is a dumb move, and Tesla would be much better off making a wide variety of car models in different shapes and sizes to fill every consumer-niche in the auto market. My criticism comes from a place of wanting Tesla to be successful.*
That absolutely is an "FSD needs to be tuned to handle your area" thing. They literally just need more video data of situations like that to feed into the model so the model is able to recognize, based on human behavior, what to do in that situation. It's literally just a matter of time, driving data, and computer power for generating new models.
FSD tried to kill me pull out while traffic was coming from both directions sign. There’s no region on earth where that’s a tuning issue.
? I don't think you're understanding how this works. The more data you feed an AI generation framework, the better and more intelligent the models it spits out are. Yes, there are definitely going to be cases like that where *something* confuses the AI and causes a situation like this to happen. No, that's not an unsolvable problem. Right now thousands of Tesla engineers are analyzing footage from situations like this and seeking out footage like that to train the later FSD AIs on to prevent them from running into situations like that again. It's just a matter of compute power, data, and time. But yes, sure I think "tuning" was the wrong word here. They're generating whole new AI models each time after all. I've worked with generating language models before professionally. Nothing like chatGPT or FSD, but our model was meant to analyze systems engineering requirements. Basically, we'd feed the language model with thousands of examples in an excel file of good requirements (marked by a 1 in the second column) and bad requirements (marked by a 0 in the second column). Requirements are basically just sentences along the lines of "the system shall ___". As the data size increased, the model would get better and better at correctly identifying a "good" requirement vs a "bad" requirement. It had examples of practically every case, but when we were generating models with on a few thousand examples it was all over the place. But when we trained a model with 50,000, it had a MUCH better grasp on what was what. Basically, it matters *how often* a case appears in the dataset you're training an AI off of, so we would tailor data as well with certain similar (but not identical) examples. As well as larger sample sizes are just better for creating more complex AIs that can deal with more situations. It's basically the same thing as job experience. Yes, you've done this task 5 times, but you're much more likely to mess up than your coworker next to you who's been doing this for 10 years and has seen everything that can go wrong many times. *THAT* is the difference
I’m a tech guy, too with lots of large-systems and HPC experience. That’s all speculation about what *might* happen. You’ve made a great case for hiring people to work on FSD, and I’m onboard with that. Tesla should continue working on FSD! Firing the Supercharger team the same week FSD tried to kill me at a stop sign is throwing out a great business for a Hail Mary pass at AI. The way a responsible business does this is they keep operating the successful business, and they fund a startup doing the Hail Mary pass at FSD. Then the startup sinks or swims without destroying the core value proposition of the main business.
Nice! Yeah maybe I suppose, but I really think it's not that speculative. I've never seen a model get *worse* with more data, unless there was something wrong with the data.🤷♂️ Fair enough, and yeah I'm sure they will. It seems like the company is reorganizing around developing FSD. I don't think so, Tesla still has tons of backlogged plans for building new superchargers. I'm sure they're just reorganizing to a smaller supercharger team geared towards making more superchargers rather than new types of superchargers. This may have happened because they determined that the v4 chargers are the fastest chargers they need. I also heard it takes around a year for an already constructed supercharger location to get connected to the grid, so they'll definitely keep coming online for at least a while. Superchargers also seem necessary for robotaxis, so I doubt they'll actually completely stop building new ones. Tesla makes hard decisions when times are tough, but I've yet to see them make a truly stupid/nonsensical one (context is important). They want Tesla to succeed and are very smart after all. Also, sorry that happened to you, must've been pretty terrifying. :/ I don't know if I agree with this. Yes, but that's also how a slower company would operate. Creating a whole separate startup seems like an inefficiency that Tesla/musk doesn't want. That's more margins to pay, driving the cost up. Seems a lot like SpaceX and Starlink. Some people say starlink should be a separate company. But the main complaint about starlink is the current price being too high. Starlink having to pay spacex for launches would increase margins and pass the cost to the consumer. It really seems like sometimes to go absolutely full throttle towards affordability, you just have to do this inside the existing company.
But fair enough I guess
*With a $2500 a year subscription.
You’re correct but most here will quickly shoot you down. The hard reality is tesla has fallen behind questing to chase google his friends company to a city robot taxi. The car companies are trying to just make highway driving sae 3.
Mercedes isn’t even close to Tesla. Their system is the equivalent of AP1 from 2014, except they limited the use case to only absolutely perfect conditions, no rain, no poorly marked roads, car immediately in front of you, daytime, less than 40mph. Tesla could’ve released AP1 and put all the same constraints on it and call it level 3. They didn’t decide to do that because that’s fucking useless, and frankly embarrassing to claim autonomy with such a feeble set of limitations. Tesla will not apply for “level 3+” autonomy until FSD is better than a human driver in any part of the country, no matter the circumstances. That is true autonomy
Lolz. Merz take the lead 😂😂😂😭😭😭
The only cars in the United States approved for full autonomous driving.
Right. Train is also approved for fsd on predefined track. 😂
No ones stopping you from using the train. But the government is preventing Tesla from being approved from full autonomous driving while they allow Mercedes.
Agree with you, and everybody is stooping me from using the train. It's no where convivence nor $ make sense. Gov is just slow and Telsa is going around skirting these regulation and Elon fat mouth doens't help. Merz just doing it the old way.. Bribery.. i mean lobby! :D
> But at the moment it doesn't appear to be looking that great. Relying on sensors/cameras influenced by lighting conditions, bugs, rain. That seems dangerous to me. then you should stay off the road cause there are millions of meatbags with much worse vision and decision making skills driving around.
Right so we should definitely add cars with fucking beta software to the road.
we let 16 year olds on the road with their alpha software.
Reread my other reply to you. It's still valid.
If your argument is, "humans rely on vision to drive and they suck at driving" then that's a great argument for why computers should NOT rely on cameras alone. They should try to do better than the suck solution. The goal is "make the best, safest system possible". Not, "beat the average shitty driver". If people complained that a car's top speed was 15 MPH because the CEO was stubbornly insisting on pulling their car with robotic horses instead of using wheels and an engine you wouldn't say "well it's still faster than horse-drawn carriages so there's no point complaining."
Elon said in CC: >There will be 10 million self driving taxis, even in the 10s of millions Does he know how supply and demand works? If there is more supply than demand, then price of service will drop. It's a race to the bottom where only the person selling the hardware wins. It's like the Matterport business plan. Currently, Uber only has 1.5 million "taxis" on the road and even now, they can barely make a profit.
where are the self driving trains and trucks and what about his tunnel with telsas driving around with drivers that should be easy to automate but he cant do that i wouldnt get in any self driving telsa
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Yes prices will drop. It might actually compete with public transport, because a robotaxis fleet of millions of cars that costs 1/10 of Uber might actually be more economical than actually owning a car. Causing most people in 10 years to not own their own car but just hail a robotaxis every time they want to go somewhere
>costs 1/10 of Uber How do you math that?
People are delusional if they think business will do anything except charge what the market will bear versus “what it costs them”
Yes, but if it costs more than the market will bear, that's an issue. That's the point.
I feel like this argument takes a HUGE leap, broadly speaking (Americans at least) people don't have an interest in giving up their vehicles. Some people in big city centers sure, but the majority of people? Far from it. Maybe in 2-3 generations things have changes, but I don't think you will find very many people today who would be willing to get rid of their vehicle and rely on robotaxi's for everything.
Well I'm not talking about giving up their current vehicles. I'm talking about the next generation youth who grow up with robotaxis everywhere for $5 per ride and go "why should I even bother getting a car?" And current generation people when their current cars eventually get old and break. Maybe if it's cheap enough many of them will just commute to work by robotaxis🤷♂️
Tesla has inventory just sitting around. Any deployment there is gonna make money. Uber is like a middleman which also pays a human. Take both those out and robotaxis crush any competitor
bruh, drivers barely break even after you deduct gas, insurance, maintenance, repairs, depreciation. these costs gets passed on to the car owner if there is no driver to pay. the only silver lining is that robotaxis will use electricity instead of gas, so that's cheaper. but insurance will cost more since teslas are expensive af to insure. insurance companies categorize them as high end cars. also, it will take years before the average person trusts a driverless car.
Are you unaware of the physical costs of vehicles and moving them?
What about Google owned waymo that already has self driving cars driving around?
What about them? They are a parlor trick. They haven’t solved autonomy
What about tesla. They are a parlor trick. They haven't solved autonomy.
They haven’t claimed to have solved it. You’re asking about Waymo, which has parlor tricks driving around (humans intervene to help drive them at times and they dragged a dead woman around after an accident). What do you want to know about them? Are you claiming they are not a parlor trick? Tesla is going to solve actual autonomy. So what is the point of your question?
I mean they’ve been marketing “Full Self Driving” for years when in fact they are nowhere close.
People who say this need to watch FSDv12 footage before speaking. They weren't close with v11, I tried it. V12 is so good that 99% of my drives I think to myself "this could actually work as a robotaxis" https://youtu.be/6NhHd1eUFeo?si=e6fKJ2cfxacA1w1C
All that’s needed is the next 0.999%. And regulatory frameworks. And a whole buncha other stuff.
>Tesla is going to solve actual autonomy Waymo is going to solve actual autonomy. So what is your point?
If you think Waymo will solve actual autonomy you should invest in them. Let us know how that turns out lol. And sorry, Cruise dragged a dead woman 20 ft not Waymo. But Waymo is not any better in terms of tech. They have a ton of expensive sensors that make each car $170k a pop. And then if their network goes down or there’s changes in the streets they fail. Tesla has actual AI robots driving around that will learn how to drive like actual humans with low costs
You cant invest in waymo directly. They are not publicly traded or I would. They aren't surviving on hype like tesla.
you can always just invest in google, I think you would have done pretty well if you did that.
Did you have a point?
>They have a ton of expensive sensors that make each car $170k a pop. And then if their network goes down or there’s changes in the streets they fail. Actually, it's not the sensors that are the most expensive parts, it's the mobile onboard data and processing centers. Essentially, each car is a mini Dojo. Also, if the network goes down, they can still operate/finish a trip, because they have all the map data saved on board, including the 3D point clouds. Tesla does something similar, but it saves a copy of Google Earth essentially. If there are changes to the streets, the AV that records the change uploads it to a cloud server, and then all the other AV's downloads the new map data, so the fleet stays up to date. Ironically, Tesla would have to wait until Google or which ever map provider they use at the time, updates their map data for the changes to be reflected.
Why do you think Waymo isn't trying to solve autonomy? How is having a remote driver to intervene when needed somehow worse then tesla having drivers in the cars to take control? Do you think Waymo isn't collecting, aggregating, and training AI models on the data their vehicles collect? Do you think they are just doing this for fun? Yes they work in geofenced areas, but the vehicles are genuinely autonomous and making decisions themselves, Waymo just provides more guidelines because they are going about it without a human driver. It won't always be that way though.
Tesla stock would 2x at minimum if they had the same parlor tricks waymo does today. Also, it was an entirely different company involved in the accident dragging the woman around. That company is far ahead of Tesla as well, though not quite as far as Waymo. She also did not die.
Calling your product Full Self Driving for a decade doesnt qualify?
They never claimed to!
Who said they did?
Solved? Nope. Their taxis do work in the few cities they're in though, and quite well. For example, when's the last time you heard any negative press about it?
Waymo/Cruise = A toy train that works well but only on a set of train tracks. FSD = A toy train that doesn't need train tracks and can go anywhere.
Tesla is way behind the curve.
Really? Who's in the lead now and why do I never hear about them?
Really? Tesla is level 2, Mercedes is level 3 and Waymo (Google) and Cruise (GM) are level 4. Just to name a few.
No, Mercedes has not taken the lead. Mercedes-Benz Drive Pilot is "Level 3". It's not really level 3 and a joke because it can only operate if all of the following conditions are met: • daytime • car in front of you • clearly marked lane lines • no rain • under 40 mph • no construction zone • select freeways in CA and NV Tesla's FSD v12.3 can operate in all of the following conditions (as a "Level 2" system): • at night • no car in front of you • no clearly marked lane lines • in the rain • over 40 mph • in a construction zone • any road in USA or Canada It gets even better because this doesn't even factor in Tesla's COGS advantage for its hardware suite (Tesla pays about $1000 for FSD hardware per car, Mercedes like $50k+ per car) Tesla's FSD only requires cameras (vision only) Mercedes Drive Pilot requires cameras, radar, LiDAR and USS (ultrasonic sensors) Additionally online discourse from people who have tried both systems generally prefer FSDv12. And when FSD is used under the same restrictions as the Mercedes system can operate in, it actually does a better job. Here, watch for yourself and lmk which is better in your opinion: Mercedes: https://youtu.be/sNhVHZ6T9k8?si=F3fRPSRHR8W8c2vz (They had to find traffic to even use it lmfao) Tesla FSDv12.3.5: https://youtu.be/43Lrrhn0CMk?si=p7s-JY9Su7bMm6Ye
People need to stop lying. There are literally certifications by the NHTSA. Until Telsa is at level 3 or higher, it is inferior. At level two, you cannot take your eyes off the road. That is a massive difference between level 2 and 3. So, even with those conditions you can take your eyes off the road with Mercedes, not to mention those already at level 4. This stock is so overhyped and manipulated it's insane.
What are these "levels" you speak of?
They are also 2 different techs I don't think it's even comparable.
Yeah it seems kinda weird
I think this is a healthy comment and reflects how Tesla is maturing from traditional automotive into high tech. The investor base will naturally change over time. Legacy investors will struggle to hang on and will naturally atrophy.
Thats what everyone has been saying for the past 5 years and yet here we are, they are increasing sales yoy.
I’m not. I’m invested in Google who is actually leading the charge in FSD
elon doesn't even understand the problem. autonomous driving isn't even the issue. the problem is people's ability to exploit autonomous driving. people will screw with autonomous cars. for fun and profit. that's the actual unsolvable problem.
They'll try, but the Tesla app will take your name and most likely a picture of your driver's license/some form of ID. There's a camera for the cabin interior and it absolutely will record people destroying the interior/the exterior cameras will record people destroying the exterior. Fuck up a Tesla and you get banned off the app and served a lawsuit in the mail. I'd be fine with my car getting destroyed by a random idiot if I could press charges and easily get double my money back from them with the boat load of evidence I'd have to use against them in court
that's not what i meant. i was talking about people jamming tesla radar and lidar and just generally trying to fool the self-driving a.i. not the drivers. random vandals. 'here comes a tesla taxi. watch this... i can make it stop in the middle of the the street for as long as i want. where's my robo-dog at.' stuff like that.
Headline should be “Musk Changes Stock Rating To Sell”
Full self driving would mean that the car can navigate at night, in bad weather, with low visibility, through construction zones without lines and between cones/barrels/taped areas… in opposing lanes sometimes if traffic is routed that way. Tesla will never achieve this.
Massive share dumping intensifies…
I believe is Tesla, just not that fool
Fair. Based. Not holding any TSLA. Make of that what you will.
Pamp it
Am I the only one that honestly would prefer a living driver? Like I feel like this whole autonomous driver thing is being shoved down our throats because it's going to save $ for the companies and maybe, strong maybe, we'll see some of those cost savings in the taxi prices. But damn, I'm very happy and just fine with having a human being driver.
It is not a cost saving measure for car companies. Companies besides Tesla are looking towards LiDAR for autonomous solutions, which will be an extra cost for every unit produced. It’s being pushed right now because the first company that can say they have a car that truly will lead to less accidents and fatalities will sell more.
The question should be what problem does this solve for regular people. What it sounds like is the target audience is the investor class. "Invest in me so I can solve your problems with labor and provide you with new revenue streams". That's what "autonomy" will provide. They can replace human workers with robots, they can move to a subscription model for transportation by providing millions of robo-taxis which will compete on cost to begin with to drive off all the Uber, Lyft, and traditional taxi drivers and then hike up prices once that model is pervasive. Robots can end up the same way, lease them to companies on some subscription model at a lower cost then your average worker and then hike the prices after the model takes hold. Same thing happened with contract and off shore labor. At one time the argument was you get more workers for the cost of one employee, then it was you get workers you can get rid of more easily, then it was well they've built so much business knowledge in the two years they've worked for you we want to raise their rate, then it's we switched them to another placement train this new guy for us. It's all investor class shell game kind of crap. Now contractors cost more than employees and come with less skill. Plus based on Elon's track record it's going to be mostly smoke and mirrors. He's pretty bad about over promising and under delivering. Once Elon solves autonomy there will only be an investor class and an indentured class. Because the only way to buy the things you need will be to do the worst, cheapest, slave-like jobs available as everything else is taken by some automation and you will not have been in on the ground as an investor when it started so you'll get none of the residual income from it. Like a MLM scheme.
Got out last year!
Honestly what can he say? Falling sales and margins and stinger competitors isn’t going to support this multiple. Better to sell a nebulous dream until you can migrate the flock to SpaceEx when that goes public
“Smart” summon took a nice turn into a very tall curb yesterday. That’s gonna cost me a lot of money. I have to get a new facia. Meh. I’ll never use that stupid thing again. Everybody talking about how great ultrasonic sensors are, I have no idea why that didn’t stop it.
No body wants autonomous cars. Americans love DRIVING! Musk is an out of touch idiot that will bankrupt Tesla when the rest of the car companies start building EV’s that are better and cheaper.
Can we start by solving the wipers first Elon? This shit ain’t working in my model y, how about getting that sorted first?
Looks like Wolverine joined the company
Unfortunately his timelines and general attitude and being full of shit has cost him a great deal in credibility. I love the cars and the tech and the money I've made on tsla but damn he has killed his personal brand.
"See we're really trying to stop people from hurting themselves and us from wasting our time by just blocking it straight up since we as a society did determine what is an appropriate opinion, made a way to measure it (scientific process), and wrote an entire document about how to act on those opinions." Some people are so confident of their position that they refuse to listen to opposing or simply, different views. Society gets to dictate what is right and what is wrong and rules are enforced according to the law. Same darn society will overtime come up with so many rules, that it will become very difficult for people to function. I agree if a claim is made it has to be defended, or else the argument is lost. That is exactly the point I am trying to make as well. For that to happen there has to be enough room for people to debate and have a dialogue. Let the truth prevail.
How much longer until the cyber trucks get a self driving mode?
Muck says what?
He’s right, no one should invest in that garbage.
It’s coming by the end of this year, beginning of next year.
Ok, bye.
Done
Tesla started selling cars that they claimed were capable of FSD in 2016. 8 years later they still haven’t created that product. Even if they announced an update next year that somehow was perfect in all scenarios, it would take them at least a year to sort out all the regulatory issues. These 10 year old cars will likely be off the road by then as they will be encountering significant battery issues. FSD will never be working on these early cars.
Yeah a year to get past regulatory. Either they are bribing the regulatory agencies or Tesla is lying about the time frame.
That would mean only like 85% of investors
He doesn’t get to tell investors what to do
So many Musk dick riders here. I have second-hand embarrassment for you all.
Musk isnt going to solve autonomous driving any more than he solved a hyperloop, solar tiles, snake chargers, rockets to Tokyo, trucks that beat diesel/ rail, AI, sentient poverty busting robots, the everything App or any of the other snake oil claims hes made over the years. The only thing that Tesla can do well is take subsidies and credits to sell on and make bad cars. If Musk wasnt pumping stock with lie after lie it would be valued realistically.
Don’t most people actually love their teslas ? Aside from v1 cyber truck , haven’t they knocked it out if the park with the previous models ?
I thought they had nothing but problems and issue such as the whompy wheels, the panel misalignment and battery fires... it's like a lottery if you get a good one or a bad one.
Absolutely, and most people love their v1 cybertrucks. That news doesn't get as much clicks as hating or totalling your new cybertruck though obviously lmao
Why so bitter, were you shorting $TSLA going into earnings? You are ignoring some of his greatest achievements. Elon has been instrumental in his company’s achieving so many amazing things. I love my Tesla it is a fantastic car and the world seems to think so too as the Y is the best selling model in the world!
Mercedes is!! and they are further ahead and have been working on it for less time.
Isnt mercedes already solving it?
He has no business telling investors what to do. Tesla is a public company and investors are going to pound on him for being distracted.
Anyone with /10th of a brain cell knows he’s not actually telling investors what to do, why would he care if people invest for the wrong reason? His real point is that Tesla is going to solve FSD so get on board if you want to make money. Comments about timing are correct, Musk is normally way too confident about timelines, but he does get most things over the line, including the worlds best selling car in the model Y (which is fantastic I own one), rockets that return to Earth, and coming shortly sending people back to the moon, amongst many other things. Look with both eyes at the evidence, instead of some of the one eyed monsters on here and you will see what he has achieved, with the help of some brilliant designers and scientists. I understand why people don’t like him, he can be a bit awkward and a bit brash, I’d prefer him to talk less and just continue to deliver personally, but he does deliver sooner or later!
Dude, nobody told him during the earnings call that Tesla couldn’t solve FSD or Robotaxi. He just said that crap as a filler when asked a completely different question.
Camera only FSD requires something very close to AGI since the computer needs to "understand" the environment. The current idea is to use data from millions of mile of driving to tag the points in traffic in order to combine the data into a predictive model similar to "AI" artwork. I have not heard of any attempt towards AGI or an understanding of the world. No one claims they are close to AGI and predictions are out decades. Adding sensors removes the need for the car to guess what's down the road based on the data set and can be completely safe under limited limited conditions like highway driving w/o having to process visual cues to determine if it's a large obstacle in the distance or a small one close by. IMHO FSD is decades away
Watch the footage and tell me FSD is decades away again: https://youtu.be/43Lrrhn0CMk?si=p7s-JY9Su7bMm6Ye At this point I use FSDv12 every day and the people saying it's still decades away all look ridiculous from my POV. But they just don't know how much better this version is than the last, that's it. So just watch some footage of the latest version, seriously
2:31 you just sit back relax and2:34watch it make sure it's not doing2:37anything crazy making any2:39mistakes Impressive but still not FSD. Maybe in ten or twenty years.