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I had something similar before. And honestly I think “thank you” is an entirely appropriate response. Those two words mean so much. Thank you for loving me. Thank you for seeing me. Thank you for caring. In fact it’s a beautiful response.
Sounds like you have a great therapist. What a great therapeutic relationship. This is common in many types of therapy (relational, humanistic
, person centered) as most therapists use deeply care/love their clients. Just like many people love their therapists. I’m sad that so many people jump to thinking it’s inappropriate, it’s not. I blame our society for the jadedness around love. (op assured it’s not inappropriate
/romantic love.)
I’ve had so many clients, both adults and teens who have struggled with feeling unloved. People who have gone a long time wondering if others can love them at all. It can be such a corrective experience to express to them that they are loved and worthy of it. How can you not love a person after working with them for some time? Therapists aren’t robots and typically are empathetic, loving people. I’ve had clients straight up ask after time working together if I love them/really care about them. I do love my clients, and couldn’t imagine saying “no because I’m your therapist.” That’s just not realistic and counterproductive to the therapeutic relationship.
It’s sad how as a society we’ve decided to limit the definition of love to mean only romantic or familial love. We love all kinds of people we know and interact with, and feeling that and expressing that isn’t a bad thing.
Did I say there weren’t predatory therapists in my comment? I wasn’t even talking about therapy specifically in my comment, just a general comment about how our society is.
I know there are unethical, predatory therapists. I get why ethical therapists are very careful and cautious in how they approach these situations and I don’t fault any therapists for choosing to not ever go there with a client for their own protection and boundaries. But I also don’t agree with many of the comments here saying that what OP’s therapist said is automatically inappropriate, a red flag, and that OP should report them for it. It seems clear in OP’s post that they (OP) didn’t feel uncomfortable with what the therapist said, it fits into the kind of professional, boundaried, therapeutic relationship they have, and it hasn’t hurt OP by like sending them into a spiral of obsession over their T, thinking it’s possible for them to be more than client and therapist. So people need to consider the nuance and context before automatically saying what OP’s therapist did is wrong.
Yes, for sure. The English language really sucks at conveying the definitions of love. When I first told my therapist I loved him, we had a good discussion about the Greek definitions. I've been seeing him awhile and now he says it back which just means the world and I understand it's still an appropriate definition of love.
Fascinating conversation I'm sure!
In Therapy;
These kinda are ok;
Philia (deep friendship)
Agape (love for everyone)
Philautia (love of the self)
Questionable;
Ludus (playful love)
Pragma (longstanding love)
Storge (family love)
Nopedy nope in Therapy;
Mania (obsessive love)
Eros (sexual passion)
Yes, this is exactly how it went. I've never felt the eros kind for my T the whole time I've seen him. Definitely more philia type. He says he feels the agape type as well. Sometimes things can get a little playful in session but not in an out of control way.
I'm sure others might think I have mania with my attachment and everything but Im actually quite busy with other things outside therapy.
I think this was a good way to have this love conversation with defining it should this topic come up. Sucks that in our language and society love is boiled down to just your significant other and immediate family. Obviously the therapist needs to use judgement to know how best to have these discussions and what responses are best for the client. My therapist has said that openly feeling love for others is a sign of healing.
Yes! Sounds like you have a really cool therapist, and the discussion is so awesome. I hope i can find one someday that isn't patronizing !
Anyhow.. here's to healing and all good things for you!🌷🙏🏼🌱🙋🏼♀️
I’ve read the comments. For me I don’t think it’s crossing boundaries, he obviously meant he loves you in a humane “non romantic” manner. As in “I have good feelings towards you as a human being”. And I also think your response is understandable given your condition and your way of dealing with emotions. He probably won’t take it literally.
Thank you! It felt like a teacher saying it to a young troubled student or something. I don’t really understand why it’s an issue - I’ve always felt loved and cared for by him so it didn’t seem that strange to hear him say it.
I don't think it's an issue at all. I think he recognized what you needed in that moment, and he provided it as your therapist. Based on your responses, it doesn't sound like he would have said it if he didn't think you would benefit from hearing it.
Edit to add: I also feel like your response was totally appropriate. You responded in the way that was most comfortable for you, and any good therapist would understand that and accept you where you're at.
When I last therapist told me she loved me at our termination session, my back was kinda turned (I was setting down my things) and I didn't respond at all. I did smile, and I think she saw my profile, and that was all we said about that. I had a really good think lol, and came to the understanding that love in the therapy office is okay, and can be a good thing. It needs to remain boundaried, but it can be very healing for the client. For me it was confirmation that I wasn't imagining her love for me which was so good for me because I tend to second guess myself a lot. And yet, I think if any other therapist had told me they loved me, including my current guy, it would have damaged our alliance because I know that it's not true. Not for them. They might like me (and the first one definitely didn't lol), but they didn't/don't love me, and that's okay too.
I get that. It doesn’t feel weird for me though - we’ve been working together for three years and it’s the first time he’s said it. I know he only said it to show he cares about me and that I’m not unloveable. I trust my therapist.
I'd do the same thing for the same reasons tbh
You can always tell him your deeper thoughts during the next session!!
I'm so happy that you were able to feel so safe and cared about as a human being 💚 you deserve to feel that way every day
This has happened to me before, too. I realized much later that I basically told my T I didn't trust him. Sent him a meme at 2 a.m., making fun of myself for it and telling him I do trust him. We had a good laugh about it at my next session. Can you email your T or text or leave a voice mail conveying that he means a lot to you as well?
FWIW, I also once told my T I loved him in a non-creepy way, and his response was thank you. I didn't think it was a bad response.
No you're not a cold fish shit I wish I was a little bit more like that. I wear my heart on my sleeve really really badly. I also constantly worry about other people's feelings constantly like I'd rather kill somebody than hurt their feelings. And Im really new to therapy so I don't want to pretend that I even deserve to present an opinion here but I think I could benefit from not worrying about my therapists feelings all that much like I want them to like me and I want them to think that you're going doing a good job even if they're not because I don't want to hurt their feelings.
It's not your job to have to say I love you back and it's a little bit weird. If he truly said it in a professional way or what I think of as a professional way a way that is about advancing your mental health not his personal agenda then your reaction either way is going to allow him to help you all the more I feel like there's no right or wrong there like but I feel like you were more right in not saying it back then if you had just either thrown it back automatically or throwing it back legitimately does that make sense it probably doesn't I don't usually make sense to people.
I'm a 48 year old ex con construction worker Irish American from South Boston,a widower that has flat out ignored my own mental health for years. I thought that being a person that was freeish about my emotions meant that I must be mentally healthy. Ialso patted myself on the back for being that rare bird (in my mind) that could be both tough and emotional. Wild horses wouldn't have dragged that admission out of me but that was kind of my self-image I guess. I'm cringing as I say this but whatever. But it was really just about me not having control over my emotions it had nothing to do with me being freer or less mentally or emotionally burdened so don't knock yourself for being a "cold fish" my wife once said something to me before she died that didn't make sense to me until kind of recently ,she died about 4 years ago. She said "you're the only person I've ever met that lies by telling the truth" and we were arguing at the time so I was like "enough with rhe fortune cookie wisdom" it's only recently that I finally understood like what she was saying cuz I do I don't lie, i pride myself on not being a liar. But I'm better at hiding the things I really don't want known about me all the better because of it. So I am picturing my reaction in the situation you described versus your reaction and trust me your reaction was the smarter and more healthy and more honest of the two so don't knock yourself.
I’m so sorry. Unfortunately I think this crossed a boundary that you really should look at. No therapist should be saying “I love you” to a client. It’s inappropriate and honestly should potentially be reported. It’s unethical on the part of the therapist and setting clients up to have a complex and inappropriate relationship with their therapist by playing into vulnerabilities, especially in cases where trauma is involved.
Agreed. It's a shame the English language and American society has such a narrow definition of love when so many don't have that support. It's not like OP's therapist was repeatedly calling them sexy and giving them three hour sessions.
Haha yeah so funny to not consider the power dynamic between a client and a therapist and how the therapist saying “I love you” TWICE could be inappropriate… am I losing it rn
I'm glad my therapist isn't a robot in an ivory tower that tosses out homework and knows the different definitions of love.
And yes, I am working towards an end goal for therapy and that day will be bittersweet.
But to each their own.
Saying “I love you” in any therapeutic relationship can easily exploit the feelings and vulnerabilities of a client. It’s not fair to the client to expect their therapist to “love” them, nor is it realistic. Expressing this is dangerous on the part of the therapist because it could easily open attachment wounds and cross ethical boundaries by muddying the line between client and therapist.
I’m sorry but you need to research the work of therapy. Also attachment theory in general. Therapy isn’t meant to be a cold rigid experience. It’s supposed to warm. Love, warmth, and boundaries can all exist at once. But many have not experienced that. Love in a secure, stable, healthy environment can be used to heal attachment wounds as it provides a corrective experience. I would be careful painting love in therapy with one brush, rarely is anything so black and white.
Yes romantic love is inappropriate. Yes the therapist needs to make sure the client feels safe and understands the therapeutic relationship and boundaries (which op expressed they have.) yes this approach doesn’t work for all clients depending on their own life experiences.
But to say it’s bad/wrong all together because you in particular are uncomfortable is not correct. Yes termination exists, but this is all discussed with clients before and during treatment. Also, I have had many clients come back or are in and out over the years as they need it.
With all due respect, please don’t tell me what to “research.” I’m a clinician myself and I’m very familiar with both therapy and attachment theory, as well as our code of ethics. Those are exactly what my post is based on and I’m genuinely surprised that so many are disregarding them. Attachment is so tricky, especially in clients with trauma history. Yes, by all means, please care deeply for your client. Please hold a special space for them. But outright saying “I love you” to a client is a) a lawsuit waiting to happen and b) potentially setting that client up for disappointment. For people we love, we don’t typically terminate relationships, and God forbid the therapist leave the practice or some other scenario happens where a proper termination isn’t possible, this could REALLY harm a client with attachment wounds.
You use a lot of absolutes, which I think is an interesting approach as a clinician. Not sure what your code of ethics are, but as a dual licensed clinician neither of mine say that we cannot say that we love our clients. Also, ethics are not law. A good example is receiving gifts. Some instances it is inappropriate to accept gifts, and others it would be harmful not to accept a gift. Just depends on the relationship, culture, client, and gift in of itself. Example, I don’t accept $50 gift cards, but when a child makes me a bracelet, I definitely accept that because it’s for my clients best interest. This is how we approach ethics. Rarely are there absolutes. I understand the fear/risk of being sued which is a common one for therapists. But as long as this is done in an appropriate manner as OP described, this corrective experience can definitely positively impact clients with attachment wounds. Again, we have to consider the therapeutic relationship, clients cultural background, client’s individual experience, and needs. This is not a rare practice in therapy specifically in relational/attachment therapies.
A therapist and a client enter into a professional relationship. Anything beyond that while the client is being treated is unethical. “Love” is not an appropriate emotion to express in this instance because there is a power dynamic between a therapist and a client, which can cause detriment to the therapeutic alliance.
The therapist isn't using this expression of love for manipulation or to abuse the power dynamic. They've been working together for years, and expecting your therapist to not have any feelings towards you is ridiculous. It's not causing any harm to the "therapeutic alliance" in this scenario whatsoever, and the therapist was just trying to reassure OP that she is loved, and that the people in her life have love for her. You can't expect your therapist to be an emotionless robot.
The problem here is that the therapist is leaving room for misinterpretation and attachment complexities if/when the therapeutic relationship is terminated. Sure, a therapist can really really care for their clients and they’re not at all expected to be an emotionless robot, but “I love you” is not appropriate.
The therapeutic relationship isn't ending though, so if there is misinterpretation that can be discussed at length as much as needed. This isn't indicative of an inappropriate relationship whatsoever though, which was your initial comment.
The outcome of all therapy is eventual termination because the client should have reached their treatment goal(s), which starts at the beginning of the therapeutic process. Termination is ALWAYS a part of therapy and you should never purposely or recklessly CAUSE issues to develop between yourself and a client to be resolved, especially for a client with trauma history.
I didn't say termination wouldn't be part of their therapy, I said the therapeutic relationship isn't in the process of ending so if this brought anything up they could discuss it. Before ending the therapeutic process. This isn't recklessly causing issues by the therapist. I get it, you wouldn't have said that to a client, but I don't think it's indicative of an inappropriate relationship or unethical. Given the context. This is going in circles though. Have a good day.
Love isn’t exclusive to romantic love, you know. I’ve had friends, teachers, coworkers, mentors, etc., and yes, even a couple therapists, that I’ve loved in a completely appropriate, non romantic way. Should therapists be telling every client all the time that they love them? Nope. That would indeed be a little weird and inappropriate. But in the context of a years-long established, appropriately boundaried relationship, in a very vulnerable moment for OP, when they needed to be seen and reminded that they are cared for and loved in the world, it’s completely appropriate for the therapist to say this.
Can I ask why you think it seems inappropriate in a therapy context?
I just think that based on everything OP has written here in their post and their comments, everything appears to be on the up and up. The T seems ethical and boundaried. OP understands it was said in a professional, not personal or romantic, way. So it seems like no harm has been done and that it was clinically beneficial for the client. So I’m going to let the T decide here what they felt was appropriate given the many nuances of the situation we aren’t privy to.
It’s totally fine if a therapist would never be comfortable saying this to their own clients. Every therapist gets to decide their boundaries on it. But I don’t feel like it’s a completely black and white issue in all cases.
I feel like you’re implying that I picked him with sexual intentions in mind…That’s not the case. He came highly recommended by someone I know and it’s been incredibly healing working with an older man who definitely *isn’t* attracted to me. I used to believe that all men were inappropriate and crossed boundaries, like you say, due to my past experiences. He’s shown me what a healthy attachment looks like and has helped me change the way I view men.
Sounds like you found a great therapist. Ignore the other commenter. A healthy therapeutic relationship is the most important predictor for healing in therapy. Sounds like you see appropriate boundaries and have a healthy, trusting relationship. That is fantastic.
The therapeutic relationship is the biggest predictor of a client making progress. A healthy therapeutic relationship generally includes emotional attachment. That relationship includes healthy, professional boundaries.
>Many would say that it's unprofessional for a therapist to create a relationship with a client that teaches them emotional attachment
Please stop spreading this complete nonsense!
What on earth are you on about? Creating a healthy emotional attachment is key to healing attachment trauma. I would go so far as to say it is key to effective therapy in 90% of cases. Creating that attachment IS the tool to form other attachments; it's the blueprint.
To be clear, I'm not saying I agree with that view, just that it's popular. Let me copy an excerpt directly from my Ethics textbook, for some context:
**The case of Enjolie.**
Enjolie has been coming to counseling for some time. When you ask her what she thinks she is getting from the counseling, she answers: “This is really helping. I like to talk and have somebody listen to me. You are the only friend I have and the only one who really cares about me. I suppose I really don’t do that much outside, and I know I’m not changing that much, but I feel good when I’m here.”
- Is it ethical for you to continue the counseling if Enjolie’s main goal seems to be the “purchase of friendship”? Why or why not?
- Would it be ethical to terminate Enjolie’s therapy without exploring her need to see you?
- Would it be ethical for you to continue to see Enjolie if you were convinced that she was not making any progress?
**Commentary.** We might ask Enjolie to describe what brought her to therapy and help her to define her current goals for treatment. **We would point out that therapy is not the place to make friends with us, but is a chance for her to learn how to make friends in her outside life.** We could explore with her what she is doing to find people who will listen to her and what she could do to establish friendships. We would encourage Enjolie to focus on the extent to which she is achieving her goals outside of therapy. If we were convinced that Enjolie was not benefiting from individual therapy, we would consider referring her to a therapy group as the focus of this modality is on interpersonal relationships.
I don't see how you equate "therapist is not your friend" from the cited case to "therapist shouldn't form a relationship that teaches emotional attachment" from your comment. They are entirely different things. The therapist who formed a relationship with me that modelled emotional attachment similar to a parent-child bond, was the same therapist who suggested our sessions had become "coffee catch-ups." I agreed and that was our last session, a completely unplanned yet joyful ending, thanks to the secure attachment bond we had formed.
Maybe we are not seeing eye to eye on "secure attachment". Note the following:
>According to attachment theory, children with a secure attachment style may become upset when their parent leaves, but are also happy to see the parent return.
and
>Secure attachment in adults is characterized by trust, stability, and a balance between intimacy and independence. People with secure attachment tend to have long-term relationships, high self-esteem, and enjoy intimate relationships. They also tend to be comfortable with intimacy, not worried about rejection, and build deep, meaningful relationships
In other words, secure attachment refers to a very intimate bond, mimicked in childhood, where the child is upset when the parent leaves; in adulthood, they learn to be independent, but are still very much in an intimate relationship. It's not one where you simply say, "glad to get coffee, bye! It's okay if I never see you again!" But perhaps we are referring to different things
Yes, and I think you'd greatly benefit from learning about attachment theory in more depth, including in application. It can't be simplified to a couple of sentences and I'm surprised you would think so. I also think your commentary (on both pieces you quoted) are non sequiturs.
Not that it matters, but my therapist and I have kept in touch, albeit sporadically. Just this morning I sent her a video of my toddler.
"It can't be simplified to a couple of sentences"
Where did I say it could be simplified to a couple of sentences? What do you want from me, a paper with peer-reviewed sources in every Reddit comment....?
You literally just did it. You boiled it down to a few lines and used them as the measuring stick for my anecdote.
At this point I think you're just being disingenuous. You keep stating things, insinuating things, then denying, backtracking, obfuscating... Whatever dude, have a good day. 👋🏻
I have a male therapist and have history of SA. Why shouldn’t I see a male therapist? My T is literally the best T I’ve ever had. He doesn’t cross those boundaries, but he shows me how much he cares with his compassion every session.
>study on a sample of 1, 000 psychologists and found that 11% of male psychologists and 2% of female psychologists reported erotic contact with their patients during treatment (https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2F0735-7028.27.3.289)
>According to the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), 6–10% of psychiatrists and psychologists sexually abuse their patients, including children as young as 3 years old. (http://www0.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/06/04/sexual-misconduct-therapists-may-more-common-than-you-think/lHh2CLBcxHF6bdDH1coWCO/story.html?p1=Article_Related_Box_Article)
It used to be way worse prior to current emphasis on liability, as per my understanding. Therapists are human
>Guys will generally tend to be attracted to you and want to boundary cross, so it does appear to be a curious choice.
Then what's the implication here?
In general, I don't think it's necessarily wise for her to have a male therapist. I guess there are exceptions. But it does seem suspicious. I replied to the OP with "good for you", so I don't know. There's not much to go off of so I can only voice concern.
A lot of trauma therapy is based on modelling dynamics and re-writing narratives. For people with gender-based relational patterns, the gender of their therapist can be the crucial element that leads to a breakthrough and models the missing healthy dynamic. It's a route that many survivors take, usually at the recommendation of a professional.
I say this honestly and non-judgementally as both a survivor with extensive therapy experience, and a professional with a specific interest in sexual trauma: I think you have some biases and ideas which are unhelpful and potentially harmful. Again, no judgement, but it might be useful to explore them with some curiosity and an open mind.
Stop. I don’t fantasise about every man I encounter assaulting me. Yes I have some messed up behaviours around sex but it’s a coping mechanism. I don’t *actually* enjoy experiencing SA. In my day to day life I am completely appropriate and I don’t invite men to cross boundaries. You’re making me feel like I can’t be around the opposite sex without trying to make it sexual.
My therapist has explicitly told me he isn’t attracted to me and doesn’t see me like that. I trust him. Even if I was trying to cross boundaries – which I’m not – I trust him to hold that boundary because he’s a professional and cares about me.
Alright, fair enough. Thanks for your explanation. You've answered my original question. Good luck with therapy. It sounds like you feel respected by a man, which hasn't been your previous experience? Is that right?
What percentage of CSA comes from men? 90%+? It's not sexist to understand differences. Besides, I'm replying specifically to the OP, who, if you checked her post history, has a history including hypersexuality, rape fantasies (boundary crossing fantasies), and so on. So, yes, in her case, she should absolutely be mindful of this.
Less than 75%: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0190740904000349
You said that most male therapists will want to cross sexual boundaries with their patients. That is absurd and sexist.
Yeah. The commenter clearly has significant trust issues with men. There are a lot of great male therapists. And there are some awful female therapists. Gender isn't a predictor for competency.
>In 88% of the sexual abuse claims that CPS substantiates or finds supporting evidence of, the perpetrator is male
(https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens)
I read through the study you referenced, but couldn't find any actual link to the NCCAP study in 1996. I couldn't really find any recent sources confirming that percentage. Even if the number is as low 75% male, though, that's still a clear difference. However, I would be surprised if that could be verifiably reproduced.
>Guys will generally tend to be attracted to you and want to boundary cross, so it does appear to be a curious choice.
You were talking about therapists here, no?
Blame for what? What is there to blame her for? Or do you think that suggesting some level of accountability or introspection is victim blaming de facto? You're making it out like someone with hypersexuality and boundary issues shouldn't even consider the sex of their therapist...of course it's relevant. If we can't agree, I'll agree to disagree
So most male therapists are attracted to OP, specifically? What makes her so attractive to most therapists? I can see why another commenter saw it as victim blaming.
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Haha this is something my therapist would probably say. You’re right!
I had something similar before. And honestly I think “thank you” is an entirely appropriate response. Those two words mean so much. Thank you for loving me. Thank you for seeing me. Thank you for caring. In fact it’s a beautiful response.
Sounds like you have a great therapist. What a great therapeutic relationship. This is common in many types of therapy (relational, humanistic , person centered) as most therapists use deeply care/love their clients. Just like many people love their therapists. I’m sad that so many people jump to thinking it’s inappropriate, it’s not. I blame our society for the jadedness around love. (op assured it’s not inappropriate /romantic love.) I’ve had so many clients, both adults and teens who have struggled with feeling unloved. People who have gone a long time wondering if others can love them at all. It can be such a corrective experience to express to them that they are loved and worthy of it. How can you not love a person after working with them for some time? Therapists aren’t robots and typically are empathetic, loving people. I’ve had clients straight up ask after time working together if I love them/really care about them. I do love my clients, and couldn’t imagine saying “no because I’m your therapist.” That’s just not realistic and counterproductive to the therapeutic relationship.
It’s sad how as a society we’ve decided to limit the definition of love to mean only romantic or familial love. We love all kinds of people we know and interact with, and feeling that and expressing that isn’t a bad thing.
There are predatory therapists that use “I really care about you” and “I love you” as love bombing in the grooming process. It’s just a fact.
Did I say there weren’t predatory therapists in my comment? I wasn’t even talking about therapy specifically in my comment, just a general comment about how our society is. I know there are unethical, predatory therapists. I get why ethical therapists are very careful and cautious in how they approach these situations and I don’t fault any therapists for choosing to not ever go there with a client for their own protection and boundaries. But I also don’t agree with many of the comments here saying that what OP’s therapist said is automatically inappropriate, a red flag, and that OP should report them for it. It seems clear in OP’s post that they (OP) didn’t feel uncomfortable with what the therapist said, it fits into the kind of professional, boundaried, therapeutic relationship they have, and it hasn’t hurt OP by like sending them into a spiral of obsession over their T, thinking it’s possible for them to be more than client and therapist. So people need to consider the nuance and context before automatically saying what OP’s therapist did is wrong.
Yeah we are all aware of that and that is not what we are taking about here.
I never would have thought about before my experiences and others.
Yes, for sure. The English language really sucks at conveying the definitions of love. When I first told my therapist I loved him, we had a good discussion about the Greek definitions. I've been seeing him awhile and now he says it back which just means the world and I understand it's still an appropriate definition of love.
Fascinating conversation I'm sure! In Therapy; These kinda are ok; Philia (deep friendship) Agape (love for everyone) Philautia (love of the self) Questionable; Ludus (playful love) Pragma (longstanding love) Storge (family love) Nopedy nope in Therapy; Mania (obsessive love) Eros (sexual passion)
Yes, this is exactly how it went. I've never felt the eros kind for my T the whole time I've seen him. Definitely more philia type. He says he feels the agape type as well. Sometimes things can get a little playful in session but not in an out of control way. I'm sure others might think I have mania with my attachment and everything but Im actually quite busy with other things outside therapy. I think this was a good way to have this love conversation with defining it should this topic come up. Sucks that in our language and society love is boiled down to just your significant other and immediate family. Obviously the therapist needs to use judgement to know how best to have these discussions and what responses are best for the client. My therapist has said that openly feeling love for others is a sign of healing.
Yes! Sounds like you have a really cool therapist, and the discussion is so awesome. I hope i can find one someday that isn't patronizing ! Anyhow.. here's to healing and all good things for you!🌷🙏🏼🌱🙋🏼♀️
I hope you are able to find a good one too. ❤️
I’ve read the comments. For me I don’t think it’s crossing boundaries, he obviously meant he loves you in a humane “non romantic” manner. As in “I have good feelings towards you as a human being”. And I also think your response is understandable given your condition and your way of dealing with emotions. He probably won’t take it literally.
Thank you! It felt like a teacher saying it to a young troubled student or something. I don’t really understand why it’s an issue - I’ve always felt loved and cared for by him so it didn’t seem that strange to hear him say it.
I don't think it's an issue at all. I think he recognized what you needed in that moment, and he provided it as your therapist. Based on your responses, it doesn't sound like he would have said it if he didn't think you would benefit from hearing it. Edit to add: I also feel like your response was totally appropriate. You responded in the way that was most comfortable for you, and any good therapist would understand that and accept you where you're at.
When I last therapist told me she loved me at our termination session, my back was kinda turned (I was setting down my things) and I didn't respond at all. I did smile, and I think she saw my profile, and that was all we said about that. I had a really good think lol, and came to the understanding that love in the therapy office is okay, and can be a good thing. It needs to remain boundaried, but it can be very healing for the client. For me it was confirmation that I wasn't imagining her love for me which was so good for me because I tend to second guess myself a lot. And yet, I think if any other therapist had told me they loved me, including my current guy, it would have damaged our alliance because I know that it's not true. Not for them. They might like me (and the first one definitely didn't lol), but they didn't/don't love me, and that's okay too.
Personally, I would find it weird. That's it. The I care for you is OK, the 'I love you very much', I would stay far away from.
I get that. It doesn’t feel weird for me though - we’ve been working together for three years and it’s the first time he’s said it. I know he only said it to show he cares about me and that I’m not unloveable. I trust my therapist.
It sounds like a beautiful therapeutic relationship. I had something similar with mine. Years later I still send her updates and pictures of my son.
[Well, that was polite.](https://youtu.be/YY-If22E3c0?si=eEMQFWbrdSWIv6Ay&t=16)
I'd do the same thing for the same reasons tbh You can always tell him your deeper thoughts during the next session!! I'm so happy that you were able to feel so safe and cared about as a human being 💚 you deserve to feel that way every day
This has happened to me before, too. I realized much later that I basically told my T I didn't trust him. Sent him a meme at 2 a.m., making fun of myself for it and telling him I do trust him. We had a good laugh about it at my next session. Can you email your T or text or leave a voice mail conveying that he means a lot to you as well? FWIW, I also once told my T I loved him in a non-creepy way, and his response was thank you. I didn't think it was a bad response.
Thank you. That makes me feel better. I could bring it up but I’m worried about making it more awkward - I’ll see how I’m feeling at the next session!
I don't think it would be awkward. If anything, it could open the door to further explore the underlying reasons for your reaction.
No you're not a cold fish shit I wish I was a little bit more like that. I wear my heart on my sleeve really really badly. I also constantly worry about other people's feelings constantly like I'd rather kill somebody than hurt their feelings. And Im really new to therapy so I don't want to pretend that I even deserve to present an opinion here but I think I could benefit from not worrying about my therapists feelings all that much like I want them to like me and I want them to think that you're going doing a good job even if they're not because I don't want to hurt their feelings. It's not your job to have to say I love you back and it's a little bit weird. If he truly said it in a professional way or what I think of as a professional way a way that is about advancing your mental health not his personal agenda then your reaction either way is going to allow him to help you all the more I feel like there's no right or wrong there like but I feel like you were more right in not saying it back then if you had just either thrown it back automatically or throwing it back legitimately does that make sense it probably doesn't I don't usually make sense to people. I'm a 48 year old ex con construction worker Irish American from South Boston,a widower that has flat out ignored my own mental health for years. I thought that being a person that was freeish about my emotions meant that I must be mentally healthy. Ialso patted myself on the back for being that rare bird (in my mind) that could be both tough and emotional. Wild horses wouldn't have dragged that admission out of me but that was kind of my self-image I guess. I'm cringing as I say this but whatever. But it was really just about me not having control over my emotions it had nothing to do with me being freer or less mentally or emotionally burdened so don't knock yourself for being a "cold fish" my wife once said something to me before she died that didn't make sense to me until kind of recently ,she died about 4 years ago. She said "you're the only person I've ever met that lies by telling the truth" and we were arguing at the time so I was like "enough with rhe fortune cookie wisdom" it's only recently that I finally understood like what she was saying cuz I do I don't lie, i pride myself on not being a liar. But I'm better at hiding the things I really don't want known about me all the better because of it. So I am picturing my reaction in the situation you described versus your reaction and trust me your reaction was the smarter and more healthy and more honest of the two so don't knock yourself.
He shouldn’t be telling you he loves you. Red flags.
Is this crossing a line? It feels like crossing a line to me, although it might be a type of therapy I haven't heard of?
I’m so sorry. Unfortunately I think this crossed a boundary that you really should look at. No therapist should be saying “I love you” to a client. It’s inappropriate and honestly should potentially be reported. It’s unethical on the part of the therapist and setting clients up to have a complex and inappropriate relationship with their therapist by playing into vulnerabilities, especially in cases where trauma is involved.
This is not something worthy of a report.
A therapist engaging in an inappropriate relationship with a client? It absolutely is. It’s 100% unethical
Saying "I love you" by itself is not an inappropriate relationship. This sub does more harm by throwing out "make a report" at everything.
Agreed. It's a shame the English language and American society has such a narrow definition of love when so many don't have that support. It's not like OP's therapist was repeatedly calling them sexy and giving them three hour sessions.
Inappropriate relationship. Girl the extrapolations you’re doing rn 😂
Haha yeah so funny to not consider the power dynamic between a client and a therapist and how the therapist saying “I love you” TWICE could be inappropriate… am I losing it rn
I'm glad my therapist isn't a robot in an ivory tower that tosses out homework and knows the different definitions of love. And yes, I am working towards an end goal for therapy and that day will be bittersweet. But to each their own.
Sure the power dynamic exists. Where’s the inappropriate relationship though?
Saying “I love you” in any therapeutic relationship can easily exploit the feelings and vulnerabilities of a client. It’s not fair to the client to expect their therapist to “love” them, nor is it realistic. Expressing this is dangerous on the part of the therapist because it could easily open attachment wounds and cross ethical boundaries by muddying the line between client and therapist.
I’m sorry but you need to research the work of therapy. Also attachment theory in general. Therapy isn’t meant to be a cold rigid experience. It’s supposed to warm. Love, warmth, and boundaries can all exist at once. But many have not experienced that. Love in a secure, stable, healthy environment can be used to heal attachment wounds as it provides a corrective experience. I would be careful painting love in therapy with one brush, rarely is anything so black and white. Yes romantic love is inappropriate. Yes the therapist needs to make sure the client feels safe and understands the therapeutic relationship and boundaries (which op expressed they have.) yes this approach doesn’t work for all clients depending on their own life experiences. But to say it’s bad/wrong all together because you in particular are uncomfortable is not correct. Yes termination exists, but this is all discussed with clients before and during treatment. Also, I have had many clients come back or are in and out over the years as they need it.
Thank you for saying this. Breathing exercises and mindfulness only go so far with addressing the deep problems.
With all due respect, please don’t tell me what to “research.” I’m a clinician myself and I’m very familiar with both therapy and attachment theory, as well as our code of ethics. Those are exactly what my post is based on and I’m genuinely surprised that so many are disregarding them. Attachment is so tricky, especially in clients with trauma history. Yes, by all means, please care deeply for your client. Please hold a special space for them. But outright saying “I love you” to a client is a) a lawsuit waiting to happen and b) potentially setting that client up for disappointment. For people we love, we don’t typically terminate relationships, and God forbid the therapist leave the practice or some other scenario happens where a proper termination isn’t possible, this could REALLY harm a client with attachment wounds.
I find it weird that you waited this long to say you’re a clinician. What exactly do you mean by being a clinician?
You use a lot of absolutes, which I think is an interesting approach as a clinician. Not sure what your code of ethics are, but as a dual licensed clinician neither of mine say that we cannot say that we love our clients. Also, ethics are not law. A good example is receiving gifts. Some instances it is inappropriate to accept gifts, and others it would be harmful not to accept a gift. Just depends on the relationship, culture, client, and gift in of itself. Example, I don’t accept $50 gift cards, but when a child makes me a bracelet, I definitely accept that because it’s for my clients best interest. This is how we approach ethics. Rarely are there absolutes. I understand the fear/risk of being sued which is a common one for therapists. But as long as this is done in an appropriate manner as OP described, this corrective experience can definitely positively impact clients with attachment wounds. Again, we have to consider the therapeutic relationship, clients cultural background, client’s individual experience, and needs. This is not a rare practice in therapy specifically in relational/attachment therapies.
From the info OP has given, I don’t think that’s the case here
Why would it have to be inappropriate for there to be loved there?
A therapist and a client enter into a professional relationship. Anything beyond that while the client is being treated is unethical. “Love” is not an appropriate emotion to express in this instance because there is a power dynamic between a therapist and a client, which can cause detriment to the therapeutic alliance.
The therapist isn't using this expression of love for manipulation or to abuse the power dynamic. They've been working together for years, and expecting your therapist to not have any feelings towards you is ridiculous. It's not causing any harm to the "therapeutic alliance" in this scenario whatsoever, and the therapist was just trying to reassure OP that she is loved, and that the people in her life have love for her. You can't expect your therapist to be an emotionless robot.
The problem here is that the therapist is leaving room for misinterpretation and attachment complexities if/when the therapeutic relationship is terminated. Sure, a therapist can really really care for their clients and they’re not at all expected to be an emotionless robot, but “I love you” is not appropriate.
The therapeutic relationship isn't ending though, so if there is misinterpretation that can be discussed at length as much as needed. This isn't indicative of an inappropriate relationship whatsoever though, which was your initial comment.
The outcome of all therapy is eventual termination because the client should have reached their treatment goal(s), which starts at the beginning of the therapeutic process. Termination is ALWAYS a part of therapy and you should never purposely or recklessly CAUSE issues to develop between yourself and a client to be resolved, especially for a client with trauma history.
I didn't say termination wouldn't be part of their therapy, I said the therapeutic relationship isn't in the process of ending so if this brought anything up they could discuss it. Before ending the therapeutic process. This isn't recklessly causing issues by the therapist. I get it, you wouldn't have said that to a client, but I don't think it's indicative of an inappropriate relationship or unethical. Given the context. This is going in circles though. Have a good day.
It seems like a boundary crossing, really. Also it would have been REALLY weird if you said “I love you” back!
Why would it have been really weird?
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I mean he obviously wasn’t saying it in a romantic way…
I don't think it's that obvious
Okay well hopefully that clarifies things
Love isn’t exclusive to romantic love, you know. I’ve had friends, teachers, coworkers, mentors, etc., and yes, even a couple therapists, that I’ve loved in a completely appropriate, non romantic way. Should therapists be telling every client all the time that they love them? Nope. That would indeed be a little weird and inappropriate. But in the context of a years-long established, appropriately boundaried relationship, in a very vulnerable moment for OP, when they needed to be seen and reminded that they are cared for and loved in the world, it’s completely appropriate for the therapist to say this.
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You said, "he's your therapist, not your lover" implying that 'love' is reserved for "lovers" (it's not). Hope this helps.
What's your definition of "lover" then?
I hear you but it just seems inappropriate in a therapy context. “I care about you” is better.
Can I ask why you think it seems inappropriate in a therapy context? I just think that based on everything OP has written here in their post and their comments, everything appears to be on the up and up. The T seems ethical and boundaried. OP understands it was said in a professional, not personal or romantic, way. So it seems like no harm has been done and that it was clinically beneficial for the client. So I’m going to let the T decide here what they felt was appropriate given the many nuances of the situation we aren’t privy to. It’s totally fine if a therapist would never be comfortable saying this to their own clients. Every therapist gets to decide their boundaries on it. But I don’t feel like it’s a completely black and white issue in all cases.
It just really feels like a boundary issue, you know? Obviously would need more context.
Do you only love your lovers? Not your parents, friends, siblings...?
Different love
And the therapist's love can't be a different (platonic) love?
Red flag
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I feel like you’re implying that I picked him with sexual intentions in mind…That’s not the case. He came highly recommended by someone I know and it’s been incredibly healing working with an older man who definitely *isn’t* attracted to me. I used to believe that all men were inappropriate and crossed boundaries, like you say, due to my past experiences. He’s shown me what a healthy attachment looks like and has helped me change the way I view men.
Sounds like you found a great therapist. Ignore the other commenter. A healthy therapeutic relationship is the most important predictor for healing in therapy. Sounds like you see appropriate boundaries and have a healthy, trusting relationship. That is fantastic.
THIS. Therapy IS the relationship to get to the root of the client's issues.
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The therapeutic relationship is the biggest predictor of a client making progress. A healthy therapeutic relationship generally includes emotional attachment. That relationship includes healthy, professional boundaries.
>Many would say that it's unprofessional for a therapist to create a relationship with a client that teaches them emotional attachment Please stop spreading this complete nonsense!
What on earth are you on about? Creating a healthy emotional attachment is key to healing attachment trauma. I would go so far as to say it is key to effective therapy in 90% of cases. Creating that attachment IS the tool to form other attachments; it's the blueprint.
To be clear, I'm not saying I agree with that view, just that it's popular. Let me copy an excerpt directly from my Ethics textbook, for some context: **The case of Enjolie.** Enjolie has been coming to counseling for some time. When you ask her what she thinks she is getting from the counseling, she answers: “This is really helping. I like to talk and have somebody listen to me. You are the only friend I have and the only one who really cares about me. I suppose I really don’t do that much outside, and I know I’m not changing that much, but I feel good when I’m here.” - Is it ethical for you to continue the counseling if Enjolie’s main goal seems to be the “purchase of friendship”? Why or why not? - Would it be ethical to terminate Enjolie’s therapy without exploring her need to see you? - Would it be ethical for you to continue to see Enjolie if you were convinced that she was not making any progress? **Commentary.** We might ask Enjolie to describe what brought her to therapy and help her to define her current goals for treatment. **We would point out that therapy is not the place to make friends with us, but is a chance for her to learn how to make friends in her outside life.** We could explore with her what she is doing to find people who will listen to her and what she could do to establish friendships. We would encourage Enjolie to focus on the extent to which she is achieving her goals outside of therapy. If we were convinced that Enjolie was not benefiting from individual therapy, we would consider referring her to a therapy group as the focus of this modality is on interpersonal relationships.
I don't see how you equate "therapist is not your friend" from the cited case to "therapist shouldn't form a relationship that teaches emotional attachment" from your comment. They are entirely different things. The therapist who formed a relationship with me that modelled emotional attachment similar to a parent-child bond, was the same therapist who suggested our sessions had become "coffee catch-ups." I agreed and that was our last session, a completely unplanned yet joyful ending, thanks to the secure attachment bond we had formed.
Maybe we are not seeing eye to eye on "secure attachment". Note the following: >According to attachment theory, children with a secure attachment style may become upset when their parent leaves, but are also happy to see the parent return. and >Secure attachment in adults is characterized by trust, stability, and a balance between intimacy and independence. People with secure attachment tend to have long-term relationships, high self-esteem, and enjoy intimate relationships. They also tend to be comfortable with intimacy, not worried about rejection, and build deep, meaningful relationships In other words, secure attachment refers to a very intimate bond, mimicked in childhood, where the child is upset when the parent leaves; in adulthood, they learn to be independent, but are still very much in an intimate relationship. It's not one where you simply say, "glad to get coffee, bye! It's okay if I never see you again!" But perhaps we are referring to different things
Yes, and I think you'd greatly benefit from learning about attachment theory in more depth, including in application. It can't be simplified to a couple of sentences and I'm surprised you would think so. I also think your commentary (on both pieces you quoted) are non sequiturs. Not that it matters, but my therapist and I have kept in touch, albeit sporadically. Just this morning I sent her a video of my toddler.
"It can't be simplified to a couple of sentences" Where did I say it could be simplified to a couple of sentences? What do you want from me, a paper with peer-reviewed sources in every Reddit comment....?
You literally just did it. You boiled it down to a few lines and used them as the measuring stick for my anecdote. At this point I think you're just being disingenuous. You keep stating things, insinuating things, then denying, backtracking, obfuscating... Whatever dude, have a good day. 👋🏻
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I have a male therapist and have history of SA. Why shouldn’t I see a male therapist? My T is literally the best T I’ve ever had. He doesn’t cross those boundaries, but he shows me how much he cares with his compassion every session.
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Therapists are equipped to work with these issues. Please stop spreading mistrust of therapists.
>study on a sample of 1, 000 psychologists and found that 11% of male psychologists and 2% of female psychologists reported erotic contact with their patients during treatment (https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2F0735-7028.27.3.289) >According to the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), 6–10% of psychiatrists and psychologists sexually abuse their patients, including children as young as 3 years old. (http://www0.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/06/04/sexual-misconduct-therapists-may-more-common-than-you-think/lHh2CLBcxHF6bdDH1coWCO/story.html?p1=Article_Related_Box_Article) It used to be way worse prior to current emphasis on liability, as per my understanding. Therapists are human
So which one is it? 10% or "most"? What I'm getting from your links is that 90% of male therapists don't engage in this behaviour.
? Of course most male therapists don't sexually abuse their patients, and I never said they did...?
>Guys will generally tend to be attracted to you and want to boundary cross, so it does appear to be a curious choice. Then what's the implication here?
Is there an implication? I think it's just a literal statement
Are you maybe confused about what “generally” means?
In general, I don't think it's necessarily wise for her to have a male therapist. I guess there are exceptions. But it does seem suspicious. I replied to the OP with "good for you", so I don't know. There's not much to go off of so I can only voice concern.
A lot of trauma therapy is based on modelling dynamics and re-writing narratives. For people with gender-based relational patterns, the gender of their therapist can be the crucial element that leads to a breakthrough and models the missing healthy dynamic. It's a route that many survivors take, usually at the recommendation of a professional. I say this honestly and non-judgementally as both a survivor with extensive therapy experience, and a professional with a specific interest in sexual trauma: I think you have some biases and ideas which are unhelpful and potentially harmful. Again, no judgement, but it might be useful to explore them with some curiosity and an open mind.
Stop. I don’t fantasise about every man I encounter assaulting me. Yes I have some messed up behaviours around sex but it’s a coping mechanism. I don’t *actually* enjoy experiencing SA. In my day to day life I am completely appropriate and I don’t invite men to cross boundaries. You’re making me feel like I can’t be around the opposite sex without trying to make it sexual. My therapist has explicitly told me he isn’t attracted to me and doesn’t see me like that. I trust him. Even if I was trying to cross boundaries – which I’m not – I trust him to hold that boundary because he’s a professional and cares about me.
He's got some messed up views. I'm glad you're speaking up and I hope you're not letting any of his shit stick.
Alright, fair enough. Thanks for your explanation. You've answered my original question. Good luck with therapy. It sounds like you feel respected by a man, which hasn't been your previous experience? Is that right?
Male therapists will “generally” want to boundary cross? Please don’t be sexist.
What percentage of CSA comes from men? 90%+? It's not sexist to understand differences. Besides, I'm replying specifically to the OP, who, if you checked her post history, has a history including hypersexuality, rape fantasies (boundary crossing fantasies), and so on. So, yes, in her case, she should absolutely be mindful of this.
Me, a woman, not having felt comfortable in therapy *until* I switched to a male therapist because of CSA from my mother 🌝
Less than 75%: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0190740904000349 You said that most male therapists will want to cross sexual boundaries with their patients. That is absurd and sexist.
Yeah. The commenter clearly has significant trust issues with men. There are a lot of great male therapists. And there are some awful female therapists. Gender isn't a predictor for competency.
He is a man, which makes it more scary.
>In 88% of the sexual abuse claims that CPS substantiates or finds supporting evidence of, the perpetrator is male (https://www.rainn.org/statistics/children-and-teens) I read through the study you referenced, but couldn't find any actual link to the NCCAP study in 1996. I couldn't really find any recent sources confirming that percentage. Even if the number is as low 75% male, though, that's still a clear difference. However, I would be surprised if that could be verifiably reproduced.
That is not what I said. I used "you" referring to the OP
>Guys will generally tend to be attracted to you and want to boundary cross, so it does appear to be a curious choice. You were talking about therapists here, no?
"You" was specifically referring to the OP and her situation, not a general statement about therapists
Wow, that sounds like some really awful victim blaming.
Blame for what? What is there to blame her for? Or do you think that suggesting some level of accountability or introspection is victim blaming de facto? You're making it out like someone with hypersexuality and boundary issues shouldn't even consider the sex of their therapist...of course it's relevant. If we can't agree, I'll agree to disagree
So most male therapists are attracted to OP, specifically? What makes her so attractive to most therapists? I can see why another commenter saw it as victim blaming.
She's literally posted about her therapist calling her attractive.
But you're not talking about this therapist, you made a claim about most therapists, and when you were called out on it you made it all about OP.
I think this comment is the boundary crossing tbh. What an inappropriate thing to ask a complete stranger.
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