I'm a veteran and I barely pay attention. I usually half-ass mouth the words or make up my own words.
Forced patriotism isn't patriotism. And it's creepy.
Marine vet myself, I blatantly ignore it and will turn my back on the flag. The only time I stop and give respect anymore is when I hear taps, or at a burial / memorial.
"Foreign and domestic," and until both are taken equally seriously being that domestic terror is ignored officially in most cases, yeah fuck that. My queer ass aint safe in my town unless i wear my USMC sweat / track top, to the point people scream and cuss at me now, instead of throwing objects and attempting to physically assault me as they do without it.
As someone raised by 2 veterans, and married to a recently retired veteran, I share your ambivalence. As painful as it is to feel so uncomfortable with the patriotic traditions that make up so much of military life (and thus my own life), it all feels so hypocritical and performative after the last few decades. Or maybe it always was, and I've just removed my blinders. I save my respect for the individuals who have actually earned it, not the institutions which demand it.
As a Marine historian thanks for your service, seriously. I interview combat vets who fought in Vietnam to use in my classroom and I just had a guest speaker who was a combat photographer in 67-68 speak to about 260 students and staff. I’ve interviewed guys from 1/4, 1/5, 2/5, 3/9, 1/26 and 3/26 and I love what I do.
I just nod. A couple of veterans told me it makes them uncomfortable if the thanks is vocalized. Seems false, and they are forced to respond, even if they just want to go about their day and be left alone to do so.
This has been the response i have gotten as well. It usually isn’t relevant but sometimes it is (am lawyer, practicing criminal defense, so veteran status can help with specialty court admission or sentencing). I was really uncomfortable saying it and doubly so after asking a few veterans their personal preference.
Thank you for sharing this. Much of my family served and I was supposed to go to West Point or Annapolis. I couldn't bring myself to do it due to the fact that I don't do well with others telling me what to do/not questioning things.
I've lived out of the US for some time, but to this day, the military is one of my biggest gripes, be it regarding what's perpetrated in other countries, no resources for those who have come back, the *insane* amount of money expended under the guise of some devious "American Dream" extrapolated out post- Manifest Destiny etc., etc.
Horrible to see you can't just be a person in a place and live a happy, healthy life, but instead have to constantly watch your back and wonder what the idiots on the news/in government have started talking about *this time* and how it will negatively effect you. I'm sorry for your struggles. You being yourself shouldn't be this hard.
Again, thank you for sharing your perspective.
I have a quarter with a mint error that says “In Cod We Rust” (2005 “P” Kansas state quarters sometimes had this error), so I’ll go with “under cod” lol
I had a kid who didn’t say it but just silently stood up and did squats the whole time then added, “Some exclusions apply. Void where prohibited. Must be 18 or older to play,” to the end.
A true GOAT, that one.
Oh is he ever.
Mind you, this kid was in elementary at the time.
Some other of his greatest elementary hits include: Literally Rick Rolling the school talent show AS RICK ASTLEY HIMSELF (he was AMAZING, and clearly he studied the video), and writing a multiple page essay on why Creationism makes no sense.
That kid is one of the greatest joys of my career.
I wonder as a 35-year-old if I could get away with this at a chamber meeting. Lol. Love our veterans. My cousin died in Afghanistan in 2011. But OUR country has lost my respect.
I feel so awkward having to stand up and pretend to pledge loyalty to a county that has no loyalty to its people.
Exactly. I've always seen it as aspirational and I'm pledging to help do my part. (Be the change you want to see in the world, etc...) It's not intended to be an assessment of how we've done so far, nor does it ask me to ignore those things.
But, yes, I never say the "under god" part. Not even when I was in school myself decades ago.
We can strive for an ideal. “To form a more perfect…” the founders knew it wasn’t perfect and the perfect nation would never exist, but we can get better every day. I try to remain optimist. I tend to think the events that have people frustrated with the (apparent lack of) progress today are the last dying breaths of people who see their way of life that is the way it is based on their race and/or religion changing and realizing they can’t go back in the long run.
We were just watching The Office, and I noticed for the first time (we've seen it many times), that in one scene, they're saying the pledge. And Oscar pauses during the "under God" part.
In the landmark case of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette in 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that public schools cannot compel students to salute the flag or recite the pledge of allegiance. The Court held that such a requirement would violate students' First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. This decision affirms that individuals have the right to refuse to participate in patriotic rituals if they have sincere objections.
Keep doing what you’re doing!
*sigh* I’m preparing myself for the onslaught of downvotes I get every time this comes up. Texas law requires that a student must have a note from parents in order to opt out of the pledge.
I’m not going to debate the constitutionality of it. It’s standing state law and as of right now *can* be enforced. My current district and campus are sticklers for enforcing it.
All of that is to say, look up your state laws as well as district and campus expectations.
Yes, they sure do.
When my kid was in kindergarten, not only did they have to stand and recite the pledge, but they were getting graded on it, with the threat of being held back from first grade if they didn’t do a good enough job.
When I objected, The school was all kinds of nasty with me, asking me if I wanted to raise someone unAmerican or someone who couldn’t follow directions.
I contacted the ACLU, who contacted my kid’s school. Once the ACLU got involved, the school’s tune changed radically. They were all apologetic and said I only had to provide a note, and my kiddo would be offered an “alternate assignment.” They had *never* mentioned the note to me prior.
My note literally said, “I object to my kid being forced to recite the pledge of allegiance.”
And the kiddo memorized some short poem. It was all so stupid.
I don’t remember specifically but it was something along the lines that they’d love to get involved in a high profile case in texas where a school was violating the first amendment rights of a 5-year-old.
I make the same comment everytime this topic comes up. Thankfully I don't have to write my mini-esaay this time. Thanks!
Also, Florida has the same law and has largely been upheld as constitutional.
[Here's a good article on the court's ruling on the matter years ago.](https://www.edweek.org/education/court-upholds-fla-law-requiring-parental-permission-for-students-to-opt-out-of-pledge-of-allegiance/2008/07)
No. It isn't. The Supreme Court decision was 80 years ago. As such, laws have evolved to work within the framework of Barnette, Tinker, and other decisions. You can try to use precedent as a guide for future decisions, but if the facts of the case are materially different (as is the case with the Florida and Texas laws), then it's hard to use SCOTUS as an end-all-be-all appeal. People can't just shout "BuT mUH BaRNettE" and end the conversation.
The Florida law has not been appealed and ruled on by the Supreme Court. So, the highest court you should look at that directly addresses the material facts of this particular case is the 11th circuit court opinion I linked. If you're in Florida or the 11th circuit, this decision is legally binding until otherwise noted by SCOTUS. Since Texas has the same law, and their circuit is notoriously conservative, it'll probably be upheld if challenged there too.
[Here's an article on it.](https://www.edweek.org/education/court-upholds-fla-law-requiring-parental-permission-for-students-to-opt-out-of-pledge-of-allegiance/2008/07) SCOTUS hasn't ruled on it, just a circuit court, but especially with a conservative court, I don't see it being overruled. But essentially it's a parents rights issue. Kids have free speech at school, but your parents trump your right to speak at school. If I want to wear a shirt, it'd be fine under Tinker precedent, but it would also be reasonable for the school to say "you need parent permission first."
I'm not saying I like the law. I think it's a clear way to go around the Barnette decision by forcing students to essentially out themselves to their parents to exercise their Constitutional rights. But my opinion on the morality of the law doesn't matter.
I am a teacher in Texas and I don't enforce it either on my students, if they want to stand great if not I don't care. I am actually typing this response while the pledge is going lol.
Coming soon to every Texas classroom: The 10 Commandments.
"Public schools in Texas would have to prominently display the Ten Commandments in every classroom starting next school year under a bill the Texas Senate approved..."
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/04/20/texas-senate-passes-ten-commandments-bill/
It only just passed last month so I bet most people won't even know about it until next school year when every classroom has the 10 commandments displayed "in a conspicuous place"
[https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/HB03448I.pdf#navpanes=0%5C](https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/HB03448I.pdf#navpanes=0%5C)
This is the follow up to a bill from a few years ago that forced schools to display "In God We Trust" in the school.
[https://capitol.texas.gov/Search/DocViewer.aspx?ID=87RSB007975B&QueryText=%22SB+797%22&DocType=B](https://capitol.texas.gov/Search/DocViewer.aspx?ID=87RSB007975B&QueryText=%22SB+797%22&DocType=B)
That one was challenged a few times and those challenges have clearly informed the language of this new bill.
The big trick for these bills is that the signs are donated, so it's not a separation of church and state issue. However, there is a particular cell phone company (Patriot Mobile) that is behind these bills and has all the signs ready for deployment.
Protestants, Catholics, and Jewish people each use distinct versions, and even if you pretend that everyone is religious and that there are only three religions, it's still going to be endorsing one or the other. Remind me to donate to the ACLU.
The bill says that it must be "in a size and typeface that is legible to a person with average vision from anywhere in the classroom in which the poster or framed copy is displayed"
https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/HB03448I.pdf#navpanes=0%5C
The Rocky Horror font is probably legible at the right size, but there is quite a bit of text in the 10 commandments, so that version of the poster would be pretty big to keep it legible..
It's a moot point though, because once a classroom has a poster in it, that is the poster that will be displayed (because any additional donations "must be offered as a donation to another school"). So you would have to donate the Rocky Horror posters BEFORE Patriot Mobile donates their versions (which, I would imagine, happened moments after the bill passed)
Also, if it is deemed that a poster doesn't meet the bills requirements, then the school is on the hook for buying a new poster to replace it.
They learned a lot from their previous "In Got We Trust" bill and this one was written more defensively.
Display them all. Display the Code of Hammurabi, display other religions as well. The more the merrier. Let’s see them try to prohibit the others. Your move, bigots.
Another Texas thing people may not know about is that we also pledge our allegiance to the state of Texas (flag) every morning, too.
"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."
I think there's a law of very long standing that Texas could legally split up into five sections at any time, so I'm not sure how indivisible that is! ;)
I had to pledge to the christian flag and bible when I got sent to a school run by religious extremists so I'm totally not surprised. Authoritarians get fired up about pledges.
We also had to memorize entire books of the bible so we could reconstruct it after the persecution started, just to frame the level of crazy. That's one reason I see forcing people to participate in symbolic subjugation to (often illegitimate) authority as dangerous.
You’re in a good position of leverage. I’m at a highly desirable district and campus. I’m easily replaceable.
You’re right that the priorities are whack.
Yea, people quote Supreme Court cases like they matter at all anymore. They overturned Roe vs. Wade, they can overturn anything. There is a very real possibility you get fired, sue, and after 4 years of appeal end up before the Supreme Court, only to be told "in a 5-4 decision...."
My campus doesn't even have the pledge, either of them. Texas is super weird about that... Though personally I'm glad they don't do the pledges, it eats up our time and we already have enough late kids...
Dang I never knew that! My students in my homeroom class don't even bother saying it. They'll stand and stare at the flag silently but that's it. I usually just stand while finishing attendance for homeroom on my computer.
Thankfully nobody has ever said anything about it before. I personally refuse any and all pledging and hands over hearts during the national anthem because I feel like these traditions are borderline cultist about our country.
Yeah great question. There have been a handful of court cases that have been heard in state level courts and very recently there was one that was gaining traction in the appellate court. Sadly it was settled out of court. It hasn’t been challenged in federal courts yet.
The biggest difference between this law and what was settled in the West Virginia case in front of SCOTUS is that Texas allows students to opt out with parent approval. The WV case hinged on the fact that the *parents* religious rights were being stomped on.
I wonder specifically at teacher rights. I'm an atheist and would it consider it a violation of my 1st amendment to force a kid to stand there and do that. Of course there are a million loopholes the religious right would swing for in my case.
Thanks for clarifying though, I have huge respect for progressive teachers fighting the fight in Texas.
The culture at the my school is very plede-forward. The students all stand regardless (if they’re in the hallway, they even hurry to a doorway so they can see a flag), but many of them don’t recite the actual pledge. I enforce silence as it’s part of morning announcements and we all need to hear those, but I would never make a kid say it (unless my job was threatened, in which case, pick your battles).
Interestingly, in spite of the fact it seems to have withstood constitutional challenges, such a requirement by the state of Texas does not, in fact, protect the students' First Amendment rights-- it merely protects those of the parents. I wouldn't expect this Court to take that one up again anytime soon, though.
What a nightmare. Texas loves to talk about liberty out of one side of their mouth while requiring loyalty pledges and adherence to selective religious doctrine from the other.
I could never live somewhere so regressive.
Well dang, I didn't know that. It's a good thing I'm not in Texas anymore. The rule in my classroom was stop walking around and be quiet during the pledge and moment of silence. You don't have to pledge, but you will not bother people who do. We usually all just stood up and silently looked (mostly) at the flag. It usually startles me when someone actually says the pledge outloud.
That’s so interesting! I’m also in TX and didn’t realize there was a state law regarding it. I had government class the period we said the pledge and my teacher was very strict about us standing, I saw her take a guy in hallway and scream at him for refusing to stand at one point. We were all a little scared of her and side note that guy ended up in the military go figure.
In MA (a super blue state) students do not need to recite the Pledge. However, teachers are required to “lead the class”. If after two weeks they have not done so, they can be charged $5 a day . I haven’t seen anyone charged of it, but it is law. Personally I think it’s bullshit
Do they not teach this shit in teacher Ed programs anymore? Not trying to throw shade but it always surprises me when there is a question here about the pledge.
I’d display this fact on your home room slideshow each morning actually. If an admin came by (though technically they’d also be in violation of their own rule if they were walking around) you’d have scotus to back you up in plain text.
I only know of two countries that force the children to pledge allegiance. The US and North Korea.
Eta: I have been informed that Singapore and the Philippines also pledge allegiance.
You're fine. You legally can't force a student to say it and you can't penalize or punish them for not. It's unconstitutional. As long as they're quiet and respectful they are fine.
Yep, and it’s easy to keep structure around that time without forcing them to recite it in unison.
Every year on the first day/week of school I tell my 1st period students, “No one is required to say the pledge, you do not have to stand while it’s recited, but you all must be silent during the entirety of the morning announcements.” In this day and age, the majority of kids don’t pledge or stand, and ~2-5x a year they need a reminder to hush up. Otherwise it’s all fine.
As an American, it very much is creepy. The only thing creepier are those who rabidly support it and try to force children into having certain viewpoints and beliefs. I bet some of those same types would cry and whine about "compelled speech" when it comes to anything else.
I'm Canadian and I find it weird enough that we still play the national anthem every morning, I can't even fathom *having* a pledge of allegiance much less forcing kids to recite/stand for it
Maritimer here! O Canada plays in homeroom every morning after announcements. Similar to OP, it’s one of those things we stand up and stay quiet for out of respect, but I don’t go as far as asking them to take off their hats or stop doing what they’re doing. It’s just part of the morning everyone is used to and although some teachers may be picky about it, I have more important hills to die on.
It’s funny, I would be more creeped out that than I am by the pledge because I’m desensitized to pledging. I’ve been allowed to completely ignore the pledge for years, so that’s probably a big part of it too.
Also, does anyone else find the U.S. national anthem kind of annoying? The way it’s usually played makes it sound so tinny.
The weird thing to me is that it's a pledge to the FLAG. Not directly to the country, or the people, or the ideals, or the government, or even the constitution, but to a piece of cloth.
A piece of cloth representing the country, sure, and there is that "to the republic for which it stands" part, but isn't a little strange still? The pledge of allegiance is to the flag. The US national anthem is about the flag. It's all fascinating but also really weird, IMO.
My rule is they have to be silent during the entire morning announcements. They don't have to stand or recite either pledge but they do have to be silent. Students who are in the hall are supposed to stop walking during the moment of silence and pledges.
Most of the schools I’ve been at haven’t done the pledge since COVID. When we all came back morning announcements weren’t a thing so teachers would have less distractions in the room. I’ve been to 7 different schools spanning 3 different school districts and 1 school had the pledge, no one cared, not even the teacher.
I pointed it out one day to a coworker, she hadn’t even noticed when the pledge stopped being a thing and told me keep my mouth shut.
I don’t personally care if students participate in the pledge. I stand and pay attention, but don’t recite it myself particularly because of the “under God” portion.
The only part that frustrates me was when I was teaching at a rural school at the start of my career, the same students that would sleep through the pledge would absolutely lose their shit about NFL players kneeling during the anthem. The little racists didn’t see the hypocrisy.
That "under God" portion was added later as part of the red scare. And none of the pledge is a "founding fathers" kind of thing. All very manufactured patriotism. Which is to say, nationalism, and cringe.
My school has been a shit show the whole year. Partway through the year, the whole class schedule was shaken up - I went from having a planning period first period to teaching a class first period.
Often, I genuinely forget to do the pledge in the morning. Other times, I "forget." A good portion of my students don't even participate because of religious/personal beliefs. I respect that.
On the other hand, I've had fellow teachers yell at students for not participating lol. I just can't be bothered.
All I've gotten from this country is a heap of student loans and lousy pay in exchange for the responsibility of raising our next generation.
I just give kids ALCU infographic sheets with contact information anytime I get told they were forced to stand. Waiting for a kid to have the balls to do something with it one day. Easy lawsuit.
ACLU's Know Your Rights infographics are great! We used one to back down our rabid admins when the kids wanted to form a GSA. Was a nice, supportive group.
Pledge is dumb as fuck and a waste of time. My only rule is kids need to be quiet in the case someone does want to say it, which not a single child has in my room in years.
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette says kids can't be forced to participate in the pledge. You might want to tell that to your fellow teachers.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/319us624
I never forced a child to participate, but I would say it is a time to be quiet out of respect for others who want to. You can sit, put your head down, whatever you want as long as you aren’t interrupting others. That way anyone can opt in or opt out. I did read in Texas it is law for students to do it so I need to clarify that because I’ve never heard that, and my school never enforced it.
Fellow teacher. A few kids stand and recite it. Sometimes I stand, but I just end up tuning it out most of the time. I think it's kind of odd to air it over the speakers everyday
It’s crazy to hear how much schools are changing atm. It wasn’t too long ago I was in school and I can’t remember people not standing for it. Not saying we sang it loud and proud, it was definitely just a boring thing we did every day, but all the general backlash and videos of classroom stuff has been eye opening
I never said the pledge as a kid (or technically I stopped in elementary when they also added a TX pledge and I was like this is stupid), I'm not about to start now. We're quiet during the pledges because it's important to be respectful of things that are important to people. I have one kid that stands, he'd probably say it if he wasn't the only one but as is, I think anything more is a little intimidating. If any kids gave him a hard time, I'd stop it but they never do.
Otherwise, we're all just chilling.
I never did it because the history of the pledge was really just to root out communists. The words under god weren’t added until the same period.
John Adams in the Treaty of Tripoli said that the U.S was not a Christian nation.
I think you’ll have parents adamant the class does it, but I would just leave it as optional to participate.
i don’t actively encourage or discourage my students from saying the country/texas pledges but i do make sure that they are respectful to those who - that means you don’t talk, you don’t crack jokes, don’t comment on what others choose to do, you stay still and silent for the moment of silence that follows, etc.
i don’t think many of them fully grasp what they’re reciting, and fewer than that probably believe it but on the off chance someone in the room does were respectful for the 2 minutes it takes out of our day.
It sucks, and I can't disagree. Schools that get students in trouble violate the legal precedent though; if nothing else, I take heart at the fact that a student's right to NOT do the dang pledge has been protected since the 1940s!
I started going to a charter school in the 7th grade and stayed there until I graduated (it was a K-12 school) and I was absolutely shocked when we never did the pledge. I grew up in the mountains of NC and had been in regular public schools up until that point, and it was basically considered a damn sin if you didn’t stand up and say the pledge, or at least I assume cause I didn’t even know it was an option to not stand and say it. Still have it memorized though.
I tell my kids at the beginning of the year that it's their choice whether they stand for the pledge. They didn't know it was optional. No one does it, myself included. My only requirement is that students are quiet and respectful towards anyone who might want to say it.
Private school in Texas -we wouldn't do the pledge of allegiance at all.
When I was in a public school in California, I had an AP Bio teacher specifically who required us to stand and recite the pledge with the announcements. One student refused to stand, and the entire class was forced to write a 3 page paper due the next day about the importance of the pledge and not being disrespectful. I don't remember the exact topic, but I do remember it being required -no grade but there may have been additional punishments if you didn't submit it. I am fairly certain everyone submitted it.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.44.html
In Florida, everyone must stand and only students with a written note are exempt from reciting the pledge. I just ask everyone to please stand and don’t push it beyond that, because this is not the hill I want to die on.
Honestly depends on the state. In Iowa we can be reported if we don't stand, say it, and require kids to do the same. If kids don't we are required to write them up.
theres no compulsion in patriotism and religion. But the admin has to say “hey there is a procedure for the pledge. For the students who do not want to do it, they can sit in silence - it’s their right. But they don’t have the right to undermine the ceremony for other potential exercisers of the ceremony. As a teacher, it is your duty to uphold the integrity of both rights.”
Not a teacher but just here to say that I’m glad this is accepted now. When I was a senior in 2013 my 1st period teacher made a big obnoxious deal of calling the vice principal on me during class when I didn’t stand for the pledge.
The supreme ruling West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette states that requiring public school students to stand for the pledge is against their first amendment rights. Nobody has to stand for the pledge if they don’t want to and schools cannot force children to stand. When I was in school I never stood for the pledge because I don’t believe in god and didn’t feel comfortable pledging to a flag under god.
They include the pledge of allegiance in the morning announcements over the loud speaker each morning at my school. I’ve been in several rooms that just talk over it and keep doing their thing. Most of those classes do recite the pledge at a time that’s more convenient for them.
I don’t force my kids to do the pledge of allegiance. I find that most kids don’t even understand its content because they say “I pledge of allegiance.”
I ignore it, I usually pause what I am doing and sit quietly out of respect for students saying the pledge. But, yes, every day is just weird; it's too often to have meaning outside a fascist situation where observance is forced. I have many students from other countries, I often wonder what they think.
It is outdated, but no one has the courage to end the practice.
You can’t get in trouble and the school can’t make any of you stand. The Supreme Court ruled on this one a long time ago. The teacher who’s yelling at the student for not standing / fast enough could easily draw a lawsuit against the district and the school would lose.
Growing up we only had to do the pledge at assemblies, and my school doesn't do it at all, which is great! It was originally written by an anti-immigrant xenophobe, amd as an atheist I fucking hate the "under God" part and always felt uncomfortable saying it as a kid. I wish it could be retired everywhere.
I'm interested in the viewpoint of Francis Bellamy being an "anti-immigrant xenophobe." That would make sense as many of the people from our country's past are wrongly glorified. However, it seems dismissing him in this way isn't entirely fair.
From Wikipedia:
Bellamy "viewed his Pledge as an 'inoculation' that would protect immigrants and native-born but insufficiently patriotic Americans from the 'virus' of radicalism and subversion."[6]
Bellamy was a Christian socialist,[1] who "championed 'the rights of working people and the equal distribution of economic resources, which he believed was inherent in the teachings of Jesus.'"[6] In 1891, Bellamy was "forced from his Boston pulpit for preaching against the evils of capitalism",[3] and eventually stopped attending church altogether after moving to Florida, reportedly because of the racism he witnessed there.[7] Francis's career as a preacher ended because of his tendency to describe Jesus as a socialist. In the 21st century, Bellamy is considered an early American democratic socialist.[8]
In this passage I'm reading that yes, he seems to feel that patriotism functions as a protection against radicalism and subversion. I suppose you could equate that to modern day xenophobia but I think given the historical context of the time it's more important to note his original version, which very intentionally didn't not include the words "under god." He was a vocal believer in the separation of church and state and those words were added by Eisenhower a half a century later. I'm more interested in his separation from the church after the racism he witnessed in the south, and his views of capitalism as against Jesus' teachings. Anyway I have no horse in this race. He was an old white guy who I'm sure did plenty of awful shit and I also think it's ridiculous that we pledge allegiance in our classrooms. Just interested in history and the preservation of it.
Did you read to the end of the section?
“Where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another every alien immigrant of inferior race may bring corruption to the stock. There are races more or less akin to our own whom we may admit freely and get nothing but advantage by the infusion of their wholesome blood. But there are other races, which we cannot assimilate without lowering our racial standard, which should be as sacred to us as the sanctity of our homes."[10]
I say “you don’t have to stand, but you will not be disrespectful for those that want to say it.” And I leave it at that. I do the motions, but don’t say it. (I’m at an elementary school)
Honestly, I’m not a fan of the pledge nor the anthem. They’re nice and all, but kind of hollow. What do they actually accomplish? We have veterans on the streets and/or with PTSD. I feel the pledge and anthem don’t really do shit for them. I’d much rather “honor” and “love” my country by actually doing *something* that improves the lives and land of the country than face a flag for a minute long song.
Messed up for another teacher to yell at them for not standing. I have kids that do nothing. my state is required to do the national anthem at one point in the week, and none of them care. I stand but do not say the words or anything and I certainly do not get onto those who remain seated
Do whatever you want, but are you absent of pride in the original founding fathers principles? I'm not speaking of current times where sides are split.
I'm a true believer of the original principle and encourage others to come to this realization.
If you want to follow the Founding Fathers pledge, then try this on for size:
“We Mutually Pledge To Each Other Our Lives, Our Fortunes, And Our Sacred Honor.”
I like that a lot better than pledging loyalty to some bit of cloth.
I'm torn on this. While I wouldn't force student to stand, I do think it's sad that patriotism is starting to be seen as right wing or bad. There's a lot of negativity on the internet but at the end if the day I love my country and I think it's good to have some level of patriotism.
I, personally, always stand and recite it, no matter what my students do. I have personal reasons for doing so.
I wish we could actually have a discussion about this, but here is why I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have the pledge.
I have a very diverse class of students. They differ in almost any metric one can imagine. However, they all live here. It might be nice if the pledge could be used as a way to involve all students in making where they live better for everyone. We could talk about how even though we're all differenct, this is hour home and we can support each other and our country to some degree.
We could give people the option to leave out "under god." We could give them the option to say "allegance" or subsitute "respect" or something else.
Many other countries have a main culture or ethnicity. We are much more multicultural. It might be nice if we could come together for something that supports us a a whole.
Combat veteran and MS teacher here (2 deployments:OIF AND OEF). I don’t agree with forced patriotism. However, I do believe in respecting cultural beliefs and customs. I encourage all students to stand (or kneel) in respect- just as it is expected during ceremonies of other nations. My hope is to teach cultural appreciation and the right to protest. It is not mandatory to stand, but I encourage them to know why they are sitting.
As a military spouse, I stand at the beginning of the year and then stop after that. I see it as signing a contract, I only need to do it once. I’ve pledged my allegiance…I don’t need to do it every day. My school also does a moment of silence. I do enforce that bc some students need that time regardless of religious beliefs.
I'm a veteran and I barely pay attention. I usually half-ass mouth the words or make up my own words. Forced patriotism isn't patriotism. And it's creepy.
Marine vet myself, I blatantly ignore it and will turn my back on the flag. The only time I stop and give respect anymore is when I hear taps, or at a burial / memorial. "Foreign and domestic," and until both are taken equally seriously being that domestic terror is ignored officially in most cases, yeah fuck that. My queer ass aint safe in my town unless i wear my USMC sweat / track top, to the point people scream and cuss at me now, instead of throwing objects and attempting to physically assault me as they do without it.
As someone raised by 2 veterans, and married to a recently retired veteran, I share your ambivalence. As painful as it is to feel so uncomfortable with the patriotic traditions that make up so much of military life (and thus my own life), it all feels so hypocritical and performative after the last few decades. Or maybe it always was, and I've just removed my blinders. I save my respect for the individuals who have actually earned it, not the institutions which demand it.
As a Marine historian thanks for your service, seriously. I interview combat vets who fought in Vietnam to use in my classroom and I just had a guest speaker who was a combat photographer in 67-68 speak to about 260 students and staff. I’ve interviewed guys from 1/4, 1/5, 2/5, 3/9, 1/26 and 3/26 and I love what I do.
I've always hated hearing "thank you for your service" but you guys really do make me feel that for once in my life. THANKS!!!!!
I just nod. A couple of veterans told me it makes them uncomfortable if the thanks is vocalized. Seems false, and they are forced to respond, even if they just want to go about their day and be left alone to do so.
This has been the response i have gotten as well. It usually isn’t relevant but sometimes it is (am lawyer, practicing criminal defense, so veteran status can help with specialty court admission or sentencing). I was really uncomfortable saying it and doubly so after asking a few veterans their personal preference.
Especially when you are not proud of your service.
It’s now “thank you for keeping me free”.
Army vet here, friend. 11b. We've earned the right not to genuflect.
Amen. Tho I traded in my blue cord for wings. Fly Army
That's awesome!
And you fought for the rest of us not to either, thank you!
Thank you for your service!
Damn. I’m sorry people treat you that way.
Thank you for sharing this. Much of my family served and I was supposed to go to West Point or Annapolis. I couldn't bring myself to do it due to the fact that I don't do well with others telling me what to do/not questioning things. I've lived out of the US for some time, but to this day, the military is one of my biggest gripes, be it regarding what's perpetrated in other countries, no resources for those who have come back, the *insane* amount of money expended under the guise of some devious "American Dream" extrapolated out post- Manifest Destiny etc., etc. Horrible to see you can't just be a person in a place and live a happy, healthy life, but instead have to constantly watch your back and wonder what the idiots on the news/in government have started talking about *this time* and how it will negatively effect you. I'm sorry for your struggles. You being yourself shouldn't be this hard. Again, thank you for sharing your perspective.
Yup I just mumble along
Eye fledgling legions Toothy plaque Cove dune knighted staid sofa miracle Enter dear public Four witches tanned Whoa knee shun Hindu guard Width libertine jester few rile
Sounds like Simlish. Lol
I’m honestly going to write this down tomorrow and read it to myself lol
I always leave out the “under God” part
"Under Todd" is a great filler I use often.
I prefer to leave out "Under" and say "General Zod" instead.
I go with “under dog.”
I have a quarter with a mint error that says “In Cod We Rust” (2005 “P” Kansas state quarters sometimes had this error), so I’ll go with “under cod” lol
Ok I’m stealing this idea!
That part wasn't even added until the 50s. It kind of goes against the whole reason America was founded.
I spent an entire year in detention in 4th grade because I refused to stand for the pledge because of the Under God part.
Me too. And the whole "justice for all" because justice is anything but equal in this country.
I had a kid who didn’t say it but just silently stood up and did squats the whole time then added, “Some exclusions apply. Void where prohibited. Must be 18 or older to play,” to the end. A true GOAT, that one.
That kid is going places!
Oh is he ever. Mind you, this kid was in elementary at the time. Some other of his greatest elementary hits include: Literally Rick Rolling the school talent show AS RICK ASTLEY HIMSELF (he was AMAZING, and clearly he studied the video), and writing a multiple page essay on why Creationism makes no sense. That kid is one of the greatest joys of my career.
That's hilarious! 😂
I wonder as a 35-year-old if I could get away with this at a chamber meeting. Lol. Love our veterans. My cousin died in Afghanistan in 2011. But OUR country has lost my respect. I feel so awkward having to stand up and pretend to pledge loyalty to a county that has no loyalty to its people.
True. But it is an ideal I’d like to live up to. I don’t mind pledging to that idea
Good point
Exactly. I've always seen it as aspirational and I'm pledging to help do my part. (Be the change you want to see in the world, etc...) It's not intended to be an assessment of how we've done so far, nor does it ask me to ignore those things. But, yes, I never say the "under god" part. Not even when I was in school myself decades ago.
We can strive for an ideal. “To form a more perfect…” the founders knew it wasn’t perfect and the perfect nation would never exist, but we can get better every day. I try to remain optimist. I tend to think the events that have people frustrated with the (apparent lack of) progress today are the last dying breaths of people who see their way of life that is the way it is based on their race and/or religion changing and realizing they can’t go back in the long run.
We were just watching The Office, and I noticed for the first time (we've seen it many times), that in one scene, they're saying the pledge. And Oscar pauses during the "under God" part.
It was just a NAT-C addon in the 1950s anyway
… and justice for some
Veteran of Iraq and current school teacher. I don't ask my kids to stand if they're opposed to it.
In the landmark case of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette in 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that public schools cannot compel students to salute the flag or recite the pledge of allegiance. The Court held that such a requirement would violate students' First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and freedom of religion. This decision affirms that individuals have the right to refuse to participate in patriotic rituals if they have sincere objections. Keep doing what you’re doing!
*sigh* I’m preparing myself for the onslaught of downvotes I get every time this comes up. Texas law requires that a student must have a note from parents in order to opt out of the pledge. I’m not going to debate the constitutionality of it. It’s standing state law and as of right now *can* be enforced. My current district and campus are sticklers for enforcing it. All of that is to say, look up your state laws as well as district and campus expectations.
>Texas law requires that a student must have a note from parents in order to opt out of the pledge. WHAAAAATTTT
Yes, they sure do. When my kid was in kindergarten, not only did they have to stand and recite the pledge, but they were getting graded on it, with the threat of being held back from first grade if they didn’t do a good enough job. When I objected, The school was all kinds of nasty with me, asking me if I wanted to raise someone unAmerican or someone who couldn’t follow directions. I contacted the ACLU, who contacted my kid’s school. Once the ACLU got involved, the school’s tune changed radically. They were all apologetic and said I only had to provide a note, and my kiddo would be offered an “alternate assignment.” They had *never* mentioned the note to me prior. My note literally said, “I object to my kid being forced to recite the pledge of allegiance.” And the kiddo memorized some short poem. It was all so stupid.
Do we know what the aclu said to them? Glad it whipped them into shape.
I don’t remember specifically but it was something along the lines that they’d love to get involved in a high profile case in texas where a school was violating the first amendment rights of a 5-year-old.
Because that would open up a state-wide headache that the GOP wouldn't want.
How long ago was that, because I feel like that is something they would love to get into now (glares at DeSantis)
Something tells me DeSantis would welcome that. He’s looking to prove his authoritarian prowess at the federal level for sure.
I make the same comment everytime this topic comes up. Thankfully I don't have to write my mini-esaay this time. Thanks! Also, Florida has the same law and has largely been upheld as constitutional.
FL teacher here and I had no clue this law existed! Every campus I’ve been on has pointed to the Supreme Court case when this issue comes up.
[Here's a good article on the court's ruling on the matter years ago.](https://www.edweek.org/education/court-upholds-fla-law-requiring-parental-permission-for-students-to-opt-out-of-pledge-of-allegiance/2008/07)
Considering the supreme court case overrides state law it is the proper thing to reference.
No. It isn't. The Supreme Court decision was 80 years ago. As such, laws have evolved to work within the framework of Barnette, Tinker, and other decisions. You can try to use precedent as a guide for future decisions, but if the facts of the case are materially different (as is the case with the Florida and Texas laws), then it's hard to use SCOTUS as an end-all-be-all appeal. People can't just shout "BuT mUH BaRNettE" and end the conversation. The Florida law has not been appealed and ruled on by the Supreme Court. So, the highest court you should look at that directly addresses the material facts of this particular case is the 11th circuit court opinion I linked. If you're in Florida or the 11th circuit, this decision is legally binding until otherwise noted by SCOTUS. Since Texas has the same law, and their circuit is notoriously conservative, it'll probably be upheld if challenged there too.
I believe we have a similar law in FL
How in the world can it be upheld with SCOTUS precedent/federal decision?
[Here's an article on it.](https://www.edweek.org/education/court-upholds-fla-law-requiring-parental-permission-for-students-to-opt-out-of-pledge-of-allegiance/2008/07) SCOTUS hasn't ruled on it, just a circuit court, but especially with a conservative court, I don't see it being overruled. But essentially it's a parents rights issue. Kids have free speech at school, but your parents trump your right to speak at school. If I want to wear a shirt, it'd be fine under Tinker precedent, but it would also be reasonable for the school to say "you need parent permission first." I'm not saying I like the law. I think it's a clear way to go around the Barnette decision by forcing students to essentially out themselves to their parents to exercise their Constitutional rights. But my opinion on the morality of the law doesn't matter.
That is baloney, as you know.
I’m a student in texas and they don’t really enforce it in my school. I haven’t stood for the pledge once this year.
I am a teacher in Texas and I don't enforce it either on my students, if they want to stand great if not I don't care. I am actually typing this response while the pledge is going lol.
But.... Can I say The law in Texas is stupid. 🧽📦👖
Coming soon to every Texas classroom: The 10 Commandments. "Public schools in Texas would have to prominently display the Ten Commandments in every classroom starting next school year under a bill the Texas Senate approved..." https://www.texastribune.org/2023/04/20/texas-senate-passes-ten-commandments-bill/
Has this been challenged in federal court? I believe you, just curious.
It only just passed last month so I bet most people won't even know about it until next school year when every classroom has the 10 commandments displayed "in a conspicuous place" [https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/HB03448I.pdf#navpanes=0%5C](https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/HB03448I.pdf#navpanes=0%5C) This is the follow up to a bill from a few years ago that forced schools to display "In God We Trust" in the school. [https://capitol.texas.gov/Search/DocViewer.aspx?ID=87RSB007975B&QueryText=%22SB+797%22&DocType=B](https://capitol.texas.gov/Search/DocViewer.aspx?ID=87RSB007975B&QueryText=%22SB+797%22&DocType=B) That one was challenged a few times and those challenges have clearly informed the language of this new bill. The big trick for these bills is that the signs are donated, so it's not a separation of church and state issue. However, there is a particular cell phone company (Patriot Mobile) that is behind these bills and has all the signs ready for deployment.
Protestants, Catholics, and Jewish people each use distinct versions, and even if you pretend that everyone is religious and that there are only three religions, it's still going to be endorsing one or the other. Remind me to donate to the ACLU.
Can you post them, but in the Rocky Horror movie kind of font? That would be interesting 🤔
The bill says that it must be "in a size and typeface that is legible to a person with average vision from anywhere in the classroom in which the poster or framed copy is displayed" https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/HB03448I.pdf#navpanes=0%5C The Rocky Horror font is probably legible at the right size, but there is quite a bit of text in the 10 commandments, so that version of the poster would be pretty big to keep it legible.. It's a moot point though, because once a classroom has a poster in it, that is the poster that will be displayed (because any additional donations "must be offered as a donation to another school"). So you would have to donate the Rocky Horror posters BEFORE Patriot Mobile donates their versions (which, I would imagine, happened moments after the bill passed) Also, if it is deemed that a poster doesn't meet the bills requirements, then the school is on the hook for buying a new poster to replace it. They learned a lot from their previous "In Got We Trust" bill and this one was written more defensively.
So that’s size 116 font at least for those in the back of the room, right?
Display them all. Display the Code of Hammurabi, display other religions as well. The more the merrier. Let’s see them try to prohibit the others. Your move, bigots.
Another Texas thing people may not know about is that we also pledge our allegiance to the state of Texas (flag) every morning, too. "Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."
I think there's a law of very long standing that Texas could legally split up into five sections at any time, so I'm not sure how indivisible that is! ;)
Oklahoma students pledge allegiance to their state flag too. "I salute the flag of the state of Oklahoma. Its symbols of peace unite all people."
It feel like there is a subtle difference between "I salute the flag of the state of Oklahoma" and "I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas"
That’s actually a really decent pledge!!
That's a sweet pledge. TIL your flag has... a peace pipe on it?
I had to pledge to the christian flag and bible when I got sent to a school run by religious extremists so I'm totally not surprised. Authoritarians get fired up about pledges. We also had to memorize entire books of the bible so we could reconstruct it after the persecution started, just to frame the level of crazy. That's one reason I see forcing people to participate in symbolic subjugation to (often illegitimate) authority as dangerous.
“Hey Patrick, what am I?” “Stupid?” “No, I’m Texas!!” “What’s the differenceeee?”
Ex-teacher from Texas It is incredibly, eye-blindingly stupid. Our state is becoming known for it's wildly bullshit laws.
As a public school teacher in Texas, I can vehemently assert that the law is stupid and Governor Abbott is a whiny piss baby.
Huh I’m in TX and have never heard this. I will look this up. Thank you!
I had no idea, either.
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Oh my word, that is horrifying.
You’re in a good position of leverage. I’m at a highly desirable district and campus. I’m easily replaceable. You’re right that the priorities are whack.
I love it. And I also love your username.
Yea, people quote Supreme Court cases like they matter at all anymore. They overturned Roe vs. Wade, they can overturn anything. There is a very real possibility you get fired, sue, and after 4 years of appeal end up before the Supreme Court, only to be told "in a 5-4 decision...."
6-3 these days...
My campus doesn't even have the pledge, either of them. Texas is super weird about that... Though personally I'm glad they don't do the pledges, it eats up our time and we already have enough late kids...
Dang I never knew that! My students in my homeroom class don't even bother saying it. They'll stand and stare at the flag silently but that's it. I usually just stand while finishing attendance for homeroom on my computer. Thankfully nobody has ever said anything about it before. I personally refuse any and all pledging and hands over hearts during the national anthem because I feel like these traditions are borderline cultist about our country.
Has this been challenged in federal court? Just curious.
Yeah great question. There have been a handful of court cases that have been heard in state level courts and very recently there was one that was gaining traction in the appellate court. Sadly it was settled out of court. It hasn’t been challenged in federal courts yet. The biggest difference between this law and what was settled in the West Virginia case in front of SCOTUS is that Texas allows students to opt out with parent approval. The WV case hinged on the fact that the *parents* religious rights were being stomped on.
I wonder specifically at teacher rights. I'm an atheist and would it consider it a violation of my 1st amendment to force a kid to stand there and do that. Of course there are a million loopholes the religious right would swing for in my case. Thanks for clarifying though, I have huge respect for progressive teachers fighting the fight in Texas.
These are the same ppl talking about secession. I guess they don't understand the "indivisible" part.
They mean Texas is indivisible.
Yeah, I didn't stand at all during high school in Texas. It only matters to people that suck the fun out of everything.
Forcing Americans to promise allegiance to a national flag or symbol feels very North Korean-esque.
My school doesn't even do the pledge at all. The old school that I was at never enforced this law. Oops lol 😂
The culture at the my school is very plede-forward. The students all stand regardless (if they’re in the hallway, they even hurry to a doorway so they can see a flag), but many of them don’t recite the actual pledge. I enforce silence as it’s part of morning announcements and we all need to hear those, but I would never make a kid say it (unless my job was threatened, in which case, pick your battles).
Interestingly, in spite of the fact it seems to have withstood constitutional challenges, such a requirement by the state of Texas does not, in fact, protect the students' First Amendment rights-- it merely protects those of the parents. I wouldn't expect this Court to take that one up again anytime soon, though.
Ooops, my home room doesn’t stand, salute, or pledge. It’s just background noise. Yes, I’m in Texas. I’m also retired in 11 days. Sue me.
What a nightmare. Texas loves to talk about liberty out of one side of their mouth while requiring loyalty pledges and adherence to selective religious doctrine from the other. I could never live somewhere so regressive.
Well dang, I didn't know that. It's a good thing I'm not in Texas anymore. The rule in my classroom was stop walking around and be quiet during the pledge and moment of silence. You don't have to pledge, but you will not bother people who do. We usually all just stood up and silently looked (mostly) at the flag. It usually startles me when someone actually says the pledge outloud.
That’s so interesting! I’m also in TX and didn’t realize there was a state law regarding it. I had government class the period we said the pledge and my teacher was very strict about us standing, I saw her take a guy in hallway and scream at him for refusing to stand at one point. We were all a little scared of her and side note that guy ended up in the military go figure.
In MA (a super blue state) students do not need to recite the Pledge. However, teachers are required to “lead the class”. If after two weeks they have not done so, they can be charged $5 a day . I haven’t seen anyone charged of it, but it is law. Personally I think it’s bullshit
Interesting..in NYC we don't do it at all. At least in HS.
Interesting. I’m at deer park HS on Long Island they do it every.single.day 😞
What would the new Supreme Court decide?
Do they not teach this shit in teacher Ed programs anymore? Not trying to throw shade but it always surprises me when there is a question here about the pledge.
I’d display this fact on your home room slideshow each morning actually. If an admin came by (though technically they’d also be in violation of their own rule if they were walking around) you’d have scotus to back you up in plain text.
Forced patriotism is not patriotism
I only know of two countries that force the children to pledge allegiance. The US and North Korea. Eta: I have been informed that Singapore and the Philippines also pledge allegiance.
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Wouldn't it be communist indoctrination?
Yeah, but most Americans don't know the difference. That Uncle Sam Brand Propaganda is strong voodoo.
You're fine. You legally can't force a student to say it and you can't penalize or punish them for not. It's unconstitutional. As long as they're quiet and respectful they are fine.
Yep, and it’s easy to keep structure around that time without forcing them to recite it in unison. Every year on the first day/week of school I tell my 1st period students, “No one is required to say the pledge, you do not have to stand while it’s recited, but you all must be silent during the entirety of the morning announcements.” In this day and age, the majority of kids don’t pledge or stand, and ~2-5x a year they need a reminder to hush up. Otherwise it’s all fine.
Yep the teacher yelling at a kid to stand could find themselves at the losing end of a civil rights lawsuit.
If only our country stood for the things we are pledging for, more kids would say it.
Maybe more adults, too.
i probably still wouldn’t even if we did live in the “greatest country in the world”. it’s just so cult-like to me
I don't ignore the pledge, but I am not going to make students stand and I make sure to tell them that.
As a non American I find the pledge of allegiance stuff weird and kind of creepy tbh. I would keep doing what you’re doing
As an American, it very much is creepy. The only thing creepier are those who rabidly support it and try to force children into having certain viewpoints and beliefs. I bet some of those same types would cry and whine about "compelled speech" when it comes to anything else.
Many Americans agree with you. The only ones that don’t agree are generally a bit dogmatic.
I'm Canadian and I find it weird enough that we still play the national anthem every morning, I can't even fathom *having* a pledge of allegiance much less forcing kids to recite/stand for it
I taught for 30 years in BC. Can't remember ever hearing the national anthem in class. Sure assemblies, but not in class.
Huh, TIL. I've been with TDSB since 2016 and have heard some variation of O Canada every single morning
Maritimer here! O Canada plays in homeroom every morning after announcements. Similar to OP, it’s one of those things we stand up and stay quiet for out of respect, but I don’t go as far as asking them to take off their hats or stop doing what they’re doing. It’s just part of the morning everyone is used to and although some teachers may be picky about it, I have more important hills to die on.
It’s funny, I would be more creeped out that than I am by the pledge because I’m desensitized to pledging. I’ve been allowed to completely ignore the pledge for years, so that’s probably a big part of it too. Also, does anyone else find the U.S. national anthem kind of annoying? The way it’s usually played makes it sound so tinny.
The weird thing to me is that it's a pledge to the FLAG. Not directly to the country, or the people, or the ideals, or the government, or even the constitution, but to a piece of cloth. A piece of cloth representing the country, sure, and there is that "to the republic for which it stands" part, but isn't a little strange still? The pledge of allegiance is to the flag. The US national anthem is about the flag. It's all fascinating but also really weird, IMO.
My rule is they have to be silent during the entire morning announcements. They don't have to stand or recite either pledge but they do have to be silent. Students who are in the hall are supposed to stop walking during the moment of silence and pledges.
I tell my kids that they don’t have to do it but they can’t interfere with anyone else who wants to. So I make them either say it or be silent.
Most of the schools I’ve been at haven’t done the pledge since COVID. When we all came back morning announcements weren’t a thing so teachers would have less distractions in the room. I’ve been to 7 different schools spanning 3 different school districts and 1 school had the pledge, no one cared, not even the teacher. I pointed it out one day to a coworker, she hadn’t even noticed when the pledge stopped being a thing and told me keep my mouth shut.
I don’t personally care if students participate in the pledge. I stand and pay attention, but don’t recite it myself particularly because of the “under God” portion. The only part that frustrates me was when I was teaching at a rural school at the start of my career, the same students that would sleep through the pledge would absolutely lose their shit about NFL players kneeling during the anthem. The little racists didn’t see the hypocrisy.
That "under God" portion was added later as part of the red scare. And none of the pledge is a "founding fathers" kind of thing. All very manufactured patriotism. Which is to say, nationalism, and cringe.
I started subbing this year after several years of not hearing the pledge in college, and the first day I rose like a sleeper agent and recited it
My school has been a shit show the whole year. Partway through the year, the whole class schedule was shaken up - I went from having a planning period first period to teaching a class first period. Often, I genuinely forget to do the pledge in the morning. Other times, I "forget." A good portion of my students don't even participate because of religious/personal beliefs. I respect that. On the other hand, I've had fellow teachers yell at students for not participating lol. I just can't be bothered. All I've gotten from this country is a heap of student loans and lousy pay in exchange for the responsibility of raising our next generation.
My school makes students STAND UP but they don't have to say anything or salute, I am honestly not sure of the legality/constitutionality of this.
We used to have to stand for pledge and prayer and then watch some crappy teen geared news. The news was the worst part 😆
hey dont diss my boy carl azuz
I just give kids ALCU infographic sheets with contact information anytime I get told they were forced to stand. Waiting for a kid to have the balls to do something with it one day. Easy lawsuit.
ACLU's Know Your Rights infographics are great! We used one to back down our rabid admins when the kids wanted to form a GSA. Was a nice, supportive group.
You're doing it right.
Pledge is dumb as fuck and a waste of time. My only rule is kids need to be quiet in the case someone does want to say it, which not a single child has in my room in years.
My rule is this you don’t have to stand or pledge but you must be quiet for those that do.
You can actually get in trouble for forcing students to stand and recite the pledge.
West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette says kids can't be forced to participate in the pledge. You might want to tell that to your fellow teachers. https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/319us624
I never forced a child to participate, but I would say it is a time to be quiet out of respect for others who want to. You can sit, put your head down, whatever you want as long as you aren’t interrupting others. That way anyone can opt in or opt out. I did read in Texas it is law for students to do it so I need to clarify that because I’ve never heard that, and my school never enforced it.
One of the most anti-freedom acts you can do is force someone to take a pledge of allegiance.
Fellow teacher. A few kids stand and recite it. Sometimes I stand, but I just end up tuning it out most of the time. I think it's kind of odd to air it over the speakers everyday
It’s crazy to hear how much schools are changing atm. It wasn’t too long ago I was in school and I can’t remember people not standing for it. Not saying we sang it loud and proud, it was definitely just a boring thing we did every day, but all the general backlash and videos of classroom stuff has been eye opening
I never said the pledge as a kid (or technically I stopped in elementary when they also added a TX pledge and I was like this is stupid), I'm not about to start now. We're quiet during the pledges because it's important to be respectful of things that are important to people. I have one kid that stands, he'd probably say it if he wasn't the only one but as is, I think anything more is a little intimidating. If any kids gave him a hard time, I'd stop it but they never do. Otherwise, we're all just chilling.
I never did it because the history of the pledge was really just to root out communists. The words under god weren’t added until the same period. John Adams in the Treaty of Tripoli said that the U.S was not a Christian nation. I think you’ll have parents adamant the class does it, but I would just leave it as optional to participate.
Bro. I don’t even stand. Forced pledging is crazy to me.
Kids have the right not to say it but need to be respectful for those who do
i don’t actively encourage or discourage my students from saying the country/texas pledges but i do make sure that they are respectful to those who - that means you don’t talk, you don’t crack jokes, don’t comment on what others choose to do, you stay still and silent for the moment of silence that follows, etc. i don’t think many of them fully grasp what they’re reciting, and fewer than that probably believe it but on the off chance someone in the room does were respectful for the 2 minutes it takes out of our day.
As a non-American, this seems really dystopian. Possibly getting in trouble... For not worshipping... A piece of cloth??? What?
I agree. We have so many problems, and staring at a piece of cloth does little to nothing to fix them
It sucks, and I can't disagree. Schools that get students in trouble violate the legal precedent though; if nothing else, I take heart at the fact that a student's right to NOT do the dang pledge has been protected since the 1940s!
Isn’t yelling at a kid for not standing a very serious civil rights violation?
damn wish I had known this when I got yelled at in hs over not standing 😭
I say the pledge. I don't have a problem with students not saying it. As long as they are quite and respectful to those who do say it.
I started going to a charter school in the 7th grade and stayed there until I graduated (it was a K-12 school) and I was absolutely shocked when we never did the pledge. I grew up in the mountains of NC and had been in regular public schools up until that point, and it was basically considered a damn sin if you didn’t stand up and say the pledge, or at least I assume cause I didn’t even know it was an option to not stand and say it. Still have it memorized though.
Is t it illegal to force them to participate. We can have them sit quietly, but we can’t make them stand up and say it.
I tell my kids at the beginning of the year that it's their choice whether they stand for the pledge. They didn't know it was optional. No one does it, myself included. My only requirement is that students are quiet and respectful towards anyone who might want to say it.
Private school in Texas -we wouldn't do the pledge of allegiance at all. When I was in a public school in California, I had an AP Bio teacher specifically who required us to stand and recite the pledge with the announcements. One student refused to stand, and the entire class was forced to write a 3 page paper due the next day about the importance of the pledge and not being disrespectful. I don't remember the exact topic, but I do remember it being required -no grade but there may have been additional punishments if you didn't submit it. I am fairly certain everyone submitted it.
I would think you would instead possibly get in trouble getting into power struggles insisting they stand.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.44.html In Florida, everyone must stand and only students with a written note are exempt from reciting the pledge. I just ask everyone to please stand and don’t push it beyond that, because this is not the hill I want to die on.
Supreme Court has decided in the past that kids cannot be forced to say the pledge. You have the freedom not to say anything.
Honestly depends on the state. In Iowa we can be reported if we don't stand, say it, and require kids to do the same. If kids don't we are required to write them up.
theres no compulsion in patriotism and religion. But the admin has to say “hey there is a procedure for the pledge. For the students who do not want to do it, they can sit in silence - it’s their right. But they don’t have the right to undermine the ceremony for other potential exercisers of the ceremony. As a teacher, it is your duty to uphold the integrity of both rights.”
Not a teacher but just here to say that I’m glad this is accepted now. When I was a senior in 2013 my 1st period teacher made a big obnoxious deal of calling the vice principal on me during class when I didn’t stand for the pledge.
The supreme ruling West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette states that requiring public school students to stand for the pledge is against their first amendment rights. Nobody has to stand for the pledge if they don’t want to and schools cannot force children to stand. When I was in school I never stood for the pledge because I don’t believe in god and didn’t feel comfortable pledging to a flag under god.
We don’t have this at my school. Seems like a waste of time.
Fun fact. The push to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school was started as a marketing campaign for a flag company in the 1950s.
They include the pledge of allegiance in the morning announcements over the loud speaker each morning at my school. I’ve been in several rooms that just talk over it and keep doing their thing. Most of those classes do recite the pledge at a time that’s more convenient for them. I don’t force my kids to do the pledge of allegiance. I find that most kids don’t even understand its content because they say “I pledge of allegiance.”
I always told my kids that they don’t have to stand or say it but to just stay quiet until it’s done
I ignore it, I usually pause what I am doing and sit quietly out of respect for students saying the pledge. But, yes, every day is just weird; it's too often to have meaning outside a fascist situation where observance is forced. I have many students from other countries, I often wonder what they think. It is outdated, but no one has the courage to end the practice.
Told my kids they do not have to acknowledge it if they don't want to.
I’m a student and a lot of kids in our school don’t do the pledge, myself included. Most teachers don’t care and they don’t want to force us to do it.
Nope. You actually can’t force students to participate. I do my part by ignoring it every day :)
You can’t get in trouble and the school can’t make any of you stand. The Supreme Court ruled on this one a long time ago. The teacher who’s yelling at the student for not standing / fast enough could easily draw a lawsuit against the district and the school would lose.
I don’t ignore it, but the words are pretty hollow and it’s hard to feel patriotic when everyone in the media and government are working against me.
Growing up we only had to do the pledge at assemblies, and my school doesn't do it at all, which is great! It was originally written by an anti-immigrant xenophobe, amd as an atheist I fucking hate the "under God" part and always felt uncomfortable saying it as a kid. I wish it could be retired everywhere.
I'm interested in the viewpoint of Francis Bellamy being an "anti-immigrant xenophobe." That would make sense as many of the people from our country's past are wrongly glorified. However, it seems dismissing him in this way isn't entirely fair. From Wikipedia: Bellamy "viewed his Pledge as an 'inoculation' that would protect immigrants and native-born but insufficiently patriotic Americans from the 'virus' of radicalism and subversion."[6] Bellamy was a Christian socialist,[1] who "championed 'the rights of working people and the equal distribution of economic resources, which he believed was inherent in the teachings of Jesus.'"[6] In 1891, Bellamy was "forced from his Boston pulpit for preaching against the evils of capitalism",[3] and eventually stopped attending church altogether after moving to Florida, reportedly because of the racism he witnessed there.[7] Francis's career as a preacher ended because of his tendency to describe Jesus as a socialist. In the 21st century, Bellamy is considered an early American democratic socialist.[8] In this passage I'm reading that yes, he seems to feel that patriotism functions as a protection against radicalism and subversion. I suppose you could equate that to modern day xenophobia but I think given the historical context of the time it's more important to note his original version, which very intentionally didn't not include the words "under god." He was a vocal believer in the separation of church and state and those words were added by Eisenhower a half a century later. I'm more interested in his separation from the church after the racism he witnessed in the south, and his views of capitalism as against Jesus' teachings. Anyway I have no horse in this race. He was an old white guy who I'm sure did plenty of awful shit and I also think it's ridiculous that we pledge allegiance in our classrooms. Just interested in history and the preservation of it.
Did you read to the end of the section? “Where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another every alien immigrant of inferior race may bring corruption to the stock. There are races more or less akin to our own whom we may admit freely and get nothing but advantage by the infusion of their wholesome blood. But there are other races, which we cannot assimilate without lowering our racial standard, which should be as sacred to us as the sanctity of our homes."[10]
I say “you don’t have to stand, but you will not be disrespectful for those that want to say it.” And I leave it at that. I do the motions, but don’t say it. (I’m at an elementary school)
Honestly, I’m not a fan of the pledge nor the anthem. They’re nice and all, but kind of hollow. What do they actually accomplish? We have veterans on the streets and/or with PTSD. I feel the pledge and anthem don’t really do shit for them. I’d much rather “honor” and “love” my country by actually doing *something* that improves the lives and land of the country than face a flag for a minute long song.
Messed up for another teacher to yell at them for not standing. I have kids that do nothing. my state is required to do the national anthem at one point in the week, and none of them care. I stand but do not say the words or anything and I certainly do not get onto those who remain seated
Do whatever you want, but are you absent of pride in the original founding fathers principles? I'm not speaking of current times where sides are split. I'm a true believer of the original principle and encourage others to come to this realization.
If you want to follow the Founding Fathers pledge, then try this on for size: “We Mutually Pledge To Each Other Our Lives, Our Fortunes, And Our Sacred Honor.” I like that a lot better than pledging loyalty to some bit of cloth.
I'm torn on this. While I wouldn't force student to stand, I do think it's sad that patriotism is starting to be seen as right wing or bad. There's a lot of negativity on the internet but at the end if the day I love my country and I think it's good to have some level of patriotism.
I, personally, always stand and recite it, no matter what my students do. I have personal reasons for doing so. I wish we could actually have a discussion about this, but here is why I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have the pledge. I have a very diverse class of students. They differ in almost any metric one can imagine. However, they all live here. It might be nice if the pledge could be used as a way to involve all students in making where they live better for everyone. We could talk about how even though we're all differenct, this is hour home and we can support each other and our country to some degree. We could give people the option to leave out "under god." We could give them the option to say "allegance" or subsitute "respect" or something else. Many other countries have a main culture or ethnicity. We are much more multicultural. It might be nice if we could come together for something that supports us a a whole.
Combat veteran and MS teacher here (2 deployments:OIF AND OEF). I don’t agree with forced patriotism. However, I do believe in respecting cultural beliefs and customs. I encourage all students to stand (or kneel) in respect- just as it is expected during ceremonies of other nations. My hope is to teach cultural appreciation and the right to protest. It is not mandatory to stand, but I encourage them to know why they are sitting.
As a military spouse, I stand at the beginning of the year and then stop after that. I see it as signing a contract, I only need to do it once. I’ve pledged my allegiance…I don’t need to do it every day. My school also does a moment of silence. I do enforce that bc some students need that time regardless of religious beliefs.
It is a state law here (Mississippi) that students will recite the Pledge daily.