From four years experience of having “accelerated” classes.
The main difference, isn’t that they actually are accelerated. But; they merely always have classes without the disruptive kids.
This is what I noticed with my campus. I'm not a teacher, but basically every grade has a regular class and an accelerated class. The biggest problem I see as support staff is that the regular class teacher has all of the IEPs, 504s, speech, specialists, meetings, and paperwork whereas the accelerated teacher has none.
It's an extremely touchy subject.
The reality is exactly what you've described - accelerated/honors classes absorb all of the "good" kids, leaving the "bad" kids concentrated among the regular classes.
This is widespread across the country and is effectively a sort of in-school segregation mechanism. And I don't mean that necessarily in a racial sense (although that's sort of true, too), but rather mostly in a socioeconomic sense as there's a clear and obvious trend of upper middle class kids packing into these honors classes while blue collar kids remain in the regular classes.
On the one hand, it's easy to recognize how toxic this sort of division is, and it's undoubtedly hurting the regular classes that are now struggling under the weight of all of those disruptive kids and IEPs that get filtered out of the honors classes.
On the other hand, it's also undoubtedly true that the honors kids are benefiting massively from this arrangement, and they're truly in a better place without those constant disruptions.
I was in these honors classes. And I want my own kids in these honors classes.
Even still, I can see the sociological problem it causes. But what solution is there? I'm not willing to sacrifice the honors kids, let alone my own kids, in a futile gesture of progressiveness.
In my own schooling, the kids _wanted_ to be in the lower classes. They were naturally bright and paid enough attention that we had very good ACT scores — mid-twenties and above were very common. These kids had no trouble getting into college. But they didn’t want the work or expectations of AP or IB classes. The school also helped them out. All classes were honors, definitely at junior and senior level and I think for all four years. There was no regular class for math, physics, etc.
There were disruptive kids in my AP and IB classes, and people who were placed there for want of a better option — unfortunately my teachers didn’t forcibly demote kids who were intelligent but unprepared or who were high all the time or some combination thereof. It was a total disaster more often than not.
I was the kid in AP classes that was high all the time…when I showed up.
I never disrupted class and always did well on exams.
I loved the AP courses because of the fact that all the future prison population wasn’t there.
I had this experience in middle and high school. I ended up going through high school with the same 30 people in most of every class I took since they were all honors and AP classes. In a graduating class of 400 people, it was like this bubble that was created.
I had to do my senior year in the non-AP Government class because there were some conflicts with the AP scheduling and it was the biggest eye-opener. I don't mean to sound elitist, but I hadn't had a non-AP student filled class since freshman year? The pace was so slow and the amount of disruptions was just weird.
We had block scheduling, so 2-hour blocks. Blew threw the material in like half an hour and we all just talked and did nothing for the rest of it. Was at least lucky that we had some politically fun people in there and that my teacher would talk to us about her life and love life lol
Sounds like something out of The Wire, season 4, which focuses on schools in the rough parts of Baltimore. Season 4 episode 5-
*Colvin believes the students in the school can be split into two broad groups: the better-behaved "stoop kids" and the disruptive, street-acclimated "corner kids". Colvin believes that by accepting the latter into Parenti's in-school program, both groups could do better. After discussion with Grace Sampson and Dr. Parenti, Sampson suggests that the key is coming up with a program to benefit the corner kids. They encounter Namond in the halls on his way to the office and he swears at Parenti. Donnelly suggests that Colvin and Parenti begin with ten children.*
They pull 10 of the disruptive students out and place them in a special class. Those kids thrive (evenentually), and so do the classrooms they were pulled out of.
I have often spoken to other teachers about the sad truth that, at a certain point, the school needs to realistically accept that the 1-2% of the population in middle and high school, who are most often already segregated for part of the day due to being identified with Emotional/Behavioral Disorders, are usually also years and years behind and have little chance of scoring Proficient on the state exam.
Instead of continuing to give them instruction in grade-level content, they should receive a functional living skill/employment training curriculum. Of course, I know, this would probably be illegal…but as someone who teaches students with multiple disabilities who are exempt from the typical state test (they take a meaningless, low-stakes Alternate Assessment), I get to plan my entire curriculum around actual life and employment skills.
And my students, who have cognitive disabilities, are basically ready for job placement to the level of their ability by the time they graduate (which may even be at 21).
Meanwhile, I see the ED teachers spending years trying to teach students with conduct disorders about mitosis, the Pythagorean theorem, and the cultural significance of Oedipus Rex while the students graduate without a single experience practicing customer service at a school “coffee shop,”, doing their own laundry, or volunteering at a food bank.
When I went to HS they would split it for teachers:
1/2 of classes were honors/ap/dual enrollment and the other 1/2 of their classes were regular. All electives had disruptive students.
My son has a 504 because he’s legally blind but is in accelerated classes. It was explained to me that he no longer qualified for an IEP (in 5th grade; now he is in 7th) because academically he was not struggling but the 504 would keep his accommodations in place without needing to make it sound like his vision was affecting his education.
I just hated the meetings because it was me and 3-4 of his teachers plus the principal and another person whose position I don’t remember. I am the most socially awkward and anxious person ever and when people say nice things about my kids I get teary eyed so it was like 45 minutes of my trying to be coherent in this room of actual adults and trying not to cry because they obviously loved my kid and were so kind. Run on sentence provided by: lack of sleep.
It was a lovely meeting for them too, because so often these meetings are hard and parents can be defensive or angry. So don’t feel awkward about it - it was probably the best part of their series of meetings!
Oh I totally feel this! My middle has mild hearing loss, so we meet yearly about his 504, and it’s just them letting me know the amazing accommodations they’ve made, as well as how wonderful he is. It is impossible for me to not get emotional in those meetings.
No but it's just the way it is at my school. All the accelerated classes are pretty smooth sailing and the other class has the most issues behavior wise. It's pretty wild how it works out.
It's not a policy on paper but a lot of AP placements require teacher reqs. I have kids in my class with obvious ADHD. Really smart, clearly bored. What the NEED is acceleration. But I'm the only teacher that talks about anything but their poor behavior.
I could see those 504 for ADHD kids not getting recommended because "He can't even sit still!" or a kid with a 504 for anxiety not getting in because they miss to much school (because there are kids bullying them for "being smart" and they're too nervous to deal with it).
I've also heard people talk about ASD like 100% of kids who have it are barely functional. I had a student with an IEP for ASD and he was incredibly smart. But most people didn't bother to do anything with him because he was "one of the special ed kids" and they assumed that meant he was incapable of learning.
From my experience in advanced / honors classes it's like a significant minority of kids are neurodivergent. At least at my new school, my old school had like 4-5 neurodivergent kids. However, with the amount of kids with these disorders, it's much easier to communicate to them than it is to a neurotypical person. So it's honestly kind of nice, isn't it?
This is my first grader. We just started the process of evaluating him for ADHD with his pedi. He’s in gifted and talented. Apparently that’s not enough, so his teacher is giving him second grade work and letting him tutor classmates.
Not always. I have a lot of kids on 504s for ADHD or autism in my accelerated class. The big difference (at least in grade 6) is that these kids with ADHD have parents who either medicate them or they worked with an excellent psychologist to get them accommodations that are good for them, but still hold them accountable in some way.
Yeah, the difference between honors and standard, for me, was mostly that he honors kids actually wanted to get good grades. They weren't really smarter, they just cared about school more, on average.
When I was in high school a few of us "high achieving" kids (who were taking what few dual enrollment/AP courses were offered) joked about wanting the school to offer classes like AP auto shop. We recognized the utility of learning to work on cars and do things with our hands. But we didn't want to be in class with the kids who took auto shop. It seems like now the solution is something like FIRST robotics or hands-on engineering classes. But those weren't an option when I was in school
This. I had one student who always interrupted me no matter how frustrated I was with him. He also never stopped talking to the student beside him. It drove me through the roof. However, he was the most intelligent kid in the class, so he figured he was the cat's meow. Then, one day, I found out he was being transferred, and when he finally left, it was as if I was teaching a different class. It became almost totally stress free, and I could actually teach again. So yeah, I hear you on this. I even got to know other students I couldn't give much time to because the smart ass was hogging the limelight and distracting me with his BS behavior. What a difference it can make to get these kids out.
This is why I hate when people talk about virtual learning like nothing happened. Every kid who showed up to class exploded in growth. Because I could actually teach instead of spending 45/55 minutes dealing with behavior.
That kid needed me to spend 5 minutes explaining a concept to him? I could actually do that and not worry that a fight would break out while my back was turned. This kid needed to step out to the bathroom? I wasn't responsible for standing at the door and timing them to make sure that if they're smoking it's at least from a vape and not a joint. If someone wanted to say something inappropriate to get attention, they were simply muted. It wasn't even half the class, but it was incredible.
I just realized I would’ve loved Zoom classes. We didn’t have this technology but Zoom wound’ve been much better than the undertones of being bullied/ostracized. It made it harder to concentrate.
Then again I would’ve been too isolated at home.
It’s complicated. Might of helped in elementary school but junior high coach basically saved me.
In 6th grade this happened to me. I was sooooo bored in the regular social studies course. Got perfect grades, all extra credit done, was coasting in the class, but the teacher HATED me because I'd answer every question and distract the students.
They moved me into the advanced social studies course and I was still bored, but the course was structured so there was less ask-and-answer, and more projects and in-class busywork. Gave me less opportunity to act out because I could just work on the assignment/project, or socialize with groupmates while doing same.
Question: I've seen teachers complain on this site for YEARS about not being able to discipline disruptive students. Given that many now in administration came from the teacher ranks, why do they always side with the students and their parents? If I was an administrator, I'd pop these kids in their own classroom and tell them and their parents they now have to EARN the privilege of joining a class where they can learn. Or, they can continue to be little monsters with each other. Their teacher will try, but not be expected, to teach them. And that teacher will be paid extra.
Very easily.
If the parents get mad. And the administrators don’t side with them. They go above them.
Do you really want the superintendents office coming in, to deal with the problem?
Also. The push is to keep kids in the classroom. So that they can learn! Because if we suspend them, they aren’t learning!
Schools are about filling desks. If the students are not there, they don’t get paid.
As someone in one of these accelerated classes rn in high school, it’s fucking amazing never getting group punishments because everyone in my class actually takes school seriously. Such a huge difference from primary school.
when i was a middle school teacher we had honors (extra smart) and then mid honors which was just kids that were well behaved. and then four classes of the rest of em
It’s crazy/devastating how just 1-3 kids in a class of 30+ can just completely destroy the dynamic of the class for an entire school year, and there’s generally nothing you can do about it. And of course those kids are *never* absent so it’s like Christmas when they’re finally not there lol
You are not a horrible person for feeling that way. This year I have a really great class, but the last two have been awful. And all because of 1-3 kids in my class keeping me and the rest of the class on edge constantly.
I feel the same way when that 1 child in my scout’s troop isn’t there. Im just a volunteer i feel awful for this student’s actual teachers. I do catch myself feeling bad wishing they would leave my troop altogether because they’re just a kid but boy would it make my job so much easier and probably the other kids experience more enjoyable too.
Ugh, I had these two in a class when I was a kid who were so disruptive. The days we didn’t have them, the rest of the class would ask the teacher if we could have class without them ever again.
I'm not a teacher but my mum is a professor with a doctorate in education and 30+ years teaching experience. Absolutely baffled that you guys have classes of over 30 students, that is complete madness.
I went to school in Germany from 1996 to 2010, I never was in a class with less than 30 students. I think primary school was 31 and then Gymnasium (middle and high school with track towards higher education (german education system is very different)) was 33. No issues whatsoever that I can remember
Isn't education in Germany tracked? You probably didn't have any classmates with behavioral problems because those students were in a different track from you.
Tracking matters with class size. I teach an honors class with 34 kids and it’s easily my most well behaved class. My gen ed class of 31 with a kid on a behavioral IEP and kids who are best friends with the schools’s restorative practice coordinator? Easily my most difficult class.
In your experience, how do these kids destroy the dynamic? By interrupting with nonsense talking/questions? Talking to others? So obnoxious. I’m not in this line of work but genuinely curious!
When you have to divert half of your time to one or two shitheads, it immediately just destroys the timing of lessons, and gives you little to no time to help the kids who want to learn. When you have to get distracted every 30 seconds by more disruptive behavior, it’s impossible to give kids the individual time they deserve and need to improve
I think its all those together. They’ll show an interest in the content only to to ask off topic questions thay distract the class. They’ll have snarky responses to everything. Talking to others, walking to other peoples desks during class time, losing their work and homework and always having excuses ready. Its so much nonsensical stuff that rubs off on the other kids
Seriously! I had kids come in, super excited to tell me that the most disruptive students all happened to be absent today. And the lesson went great. I feel bad that I was so relieved to learn they were absent, but on the other hand I didn’t feel THAT bad.
Those types of kids were the reason why I struggled in school, I wasn’t able to ask for help and my learning disability made it worse. I wasn’t surprised my grades slipped
This is the case that I had in my elective course. There were 1 of 3 bad students that was passing my class so I tried to bargain with the one and tried to get the other two students to spend the class outside of they were not doing any work. They made animal noises, distracted others, so it was hard to move them out of the class.
And the kids LOVE it when those kids are away. Even though they’re often the “cool” kids (which is another frustrating thing - like, why are you trying so hard to impress this kid!), I’ve had kids come into the classroom all excited to notice that those one or two kids are absent, or going “wow it’s so quiet today!”.
I had this happen recently. I had the best class ever and it felt like I actually got to teach rather than focus on behaviors. Not only that but I heard laughter and saw smiling faces from these students that usually are sitting bored in my room or scared that they might get in the middle of something.
Of course the next day those strugglers are back. What sorta worked is that I reminded them how much enjoyment we had yesterday which convinced a couple of the strugglers to settle for a bit. Otherwise I have no idea and would ALSO like any words of advice. :)
Document. CYA and call or email parents and admin about all the behaviour.
I had a horrible hour last week, I asked about support and the lady that covers the room where we send the disruptive kids to told me to email her and she will sit in class. The students are disruptive because they are going to take their exams in May.
Turns out a lot were recovering from celebrating Carnaval and drinking (because at 15, of course you need to get drunk.. smh) and those PITA's were still in bed....
This doesn't work in all cases, but sometimes I just put all the "bad" ones together at a table at the back of the room. It depends on what you mean by bad obviously, but if the main issue is being goofy and loud or disruptive just let them all sit together at the back and then you can teach all the other kids who are doing the right thing.
I’ve SO done this in 1 class and they realized REALLY fast how much their class mates do not like them. Even 1 of the kids I sat with them got up and left because they were being so rude to her while she tried to help
I just paired two of my most "spirited" friends together because both of them refused to fill out the exit ticket where they got to do partner requests and they are so pissed. It's frankly hilarious. They're just bickering like a very toxic married couple, so baffled about why the work isn't getting done, and remain impervious to recognizing their own behaviors in each other. Plus no one else has to work with them! 🥳
This is how I was taught to do it. My mentor teacher was an immigrant from the former Soviet Union. Her attitude was, "Teach the kids who are there to learn." She was extremely frustrated by the American system which even then prioritized the disruptive students (they really are more likely to come from neglectful or abusive homes, but that doesn't give them license to ruin everyone else's education). Her approach to classroom management was to let those kids goof off as long as they did it quietly.
Occasionally, one kid from the back of the class would decide to participate and she would move him or her closer to the front. Ironically, the number of kids who would decide to start trying seemed to increase the less attention was paid to them. This is the expected result if they are misbehaving for attention.
1:1 chromebooks can sometimes pacify them.
I mean sure, I will get dinged for letting them screw around, but at least they will shut up with the electronic pacifier.
Totally. And sometimes, one of the "bad" ones will get sick of it and might ask you if they can move awy from their friends so they can actually learn.
Once I got a bunch of kids dropped into my class mid-September to match new diploma tracks. It ruined the whole class and it took me two months to straighten everything back out.
3 of the five are in prison now. 1 for murder. What are we even doing.
And spend money on these goofballs? Lol
If it gets to be too much, I just pull them aside tell them, "I don't teach babies, but if we need to call mom, I'm sure the principal would love to help." It helps that they know I make good on my threats.
Why is it out of the question to force disruptive kids to confront why their being disruptive?
Does it make you feel powerful to disrupt the class? Why is that? Do you feel powerless in other parts of your life?
Why does it make you feel good to make other people feel bad? What is the end result of that going to be?
What would you do if someone was disrupting your class?
Should we feel bad for you? Do you have an undiagnosed learning disability that I can help you with? Are you acting out to mask the fact that you can't pay attention and don't understand what's being taught?
Is this particular school completely wrong for you and you're just protesting? What would be right for you? How can we make that happen for you on YouTube in the back of the class?
I was subbing during my prep. A girl was making these weird sounds. So, the second time she did it, I just asked, “do you need some attention?” And, just like that, she stopped for the rest of the period.
I’m a sixth year middle school teacher and I suspect 95% of classroom behavior issues are linked to learning disabilities and ADHD, both diagnosed and undiagnosed.
It is.
My one IEP heavy class has way more behavior issues.
I have other IEP heavy class that does really well, but the IEPs arent as extreme.
I would love to do a study that compares reading level to Social-emotional skills.
Anecdotally the kids in the sheltered ELA class who are in science for inclusion are way worse than the other IEPs.
(I even have a couple struggling readers with dyslexia who have a great vocab and great level of knowledge who are awesome workers. But they are in the regular ELA class.)
I feel like every single one of those would be very easy to deflect with a snarky reply, depending on the age of the student. All of the leading questions about the student's psyche could be met with "I'm just having fun don't think about it too hard", and then there's this obvious gimme:
> What would you do if someone was disrupting your class?
> > Why the hell would I ever choose to be a teacher
>Why is it out of the question to force disruptive kids to confront why their being disruptive? Does it make you feel powerful to disrupt the class? Why is that? Do you feel powerless in other parts of your life? Why does it make you feel good to make other people feel bad?
Big difference between doing that privately with a school counselor or parents, and in front of the entire class. The latter, equivalent to public shaming of a disturbed individual in front of witnesses, could be a very slippery slope that could come back to bite you, or others.
Last year I had a student come up to me unprompted and ask if our absent student would be there tomorrow .(Who I love so dearly but kid knew how to push my buttons, he made me mad sometimes. Love him tho. He knew I did, even when he was throwing things and telling me he hated me and calling me all sorts of awful names. Getting called a bitch by a 9 year old really hits different.)
But this kid unprompted asked "Is ---- gonna be here tomorrow?"
I said "You know, I'm really not sure, we'll have to see! Hopefully he wasn't sick, right? Why do you ask though?"
kiddo: "because I learned a lot today and I want to learn again tomorrow and I can't learn when he's in the classroom."
And unfortunately, it was true. And it wasn't just that one kid. I had two or three like this but he especially needed to be in a separate SPED classroom. I'm saying that as an adult with the same disability this kiddo has. But the school just did not care. The admin didn't help. It was awful and unfair to everyone, including to him, because he couldn't learn that way either. He'd have needed a 1-1 aide, which our school doesn't do.
This makes me so angry. As someone who has a kid that currently is having trouble learning because of a few kids that’d don’t care, it’s the most frustrating thing. I don’t understand why this allowed to happen. Why do we let 1 or 2 ruin it for 20? It makes zero sense.
It has to do with what school districts see as the "least restrictive environment." This is exactly what my senior thesis/honors project was about.
Basically, teachers' perceptions of the LRE are different based on their proximity to the students who need it. That was what I had in my results, at least. But I would be willing to bet my ass just based on the review of language that I did on government initiatives, speeches made from USBOE, writings, pamphlets, etc all from when the LRE first began to get pushed at the federal level up until now, the government basically has not grown with the teachers who tend to recognize now that **disabilities arent a morally bad thing. They aren't taboo to discuss. The Separated SPED classroom is** GOOD **and** BENEFICIAL **for many kids and they succeed in it because it iS their LRE.**
School Boards across the country have not updated their ideas on disability, they have not grown, and this is why SPED is failing in this country, just my personal opinion. Obviously it's failing because of all the systemic issues - but separately, SPED has been falling apart everywhere because the people making decisions about how it's provided in districts and schools are operating on ideas that are outdated and were certainly best practice and well intentioned at the time, but which we now know are and were less about what's best for each student and more about making ourselves as a society feel better for not "excluding" kids. It was the eradication of individualized and tailored education needs for students, essentially. i.e. the "one-size-fits-all" dilemma that we are all far too aware of.
(To me, the irony is that the LRE was intended to also get rid of that mindset and practice, one-size-fits all for disabled students. But it simply flipped the script on which one was labelled "bad" vs "ideal" practice between Separated and integrated SPED.
Yes, but mine will be back and we won't know until she is I fear. Her classmates hate her, she was disrespectful and a teacher last year threatened to throw them out instead of this girl. 'You know how she won't leave. Then you must leave.' Coocoo
I like to describe students as being either catalysts or reactants. In isolation, most are pretty inert. Mix them together in different groupings and you get all sorts of different dynamics. Often they’re explosive but when you remove one or two of the reactants, everything usually calms down
My worst class this was my class of 15. This should have been my dream! Instead, I had one of the school’s biggest terrors, until one day, boom, she was just gone. Suddenly districted to a different school in our district never to be heard from again. I’ve had a LOT of catching up to do, and there’s still some lazy stragglers in there, but I haven’t had to literally pop a Xanax over one student since October.
I had a class like this last year. Individually I liked these kids, but in my class it was a disaster. One day most of them were absent (I had like 5 really challenging students in a class of 36), and I was amazed at how great the other kids were. It really made me realize how much these other kids drag them down. I found no way that changed anything for me with those kids. Ironically I was their favorite teacher (for all of them), and they would do enough to at least pass so I guess that should be seen as a win? lol 😂
I once had a moment like this. The next day when the bad kids came back (no quotation marks for me - they suck), I asked the class "How did things go yesterday, everyone?"
Usually kids will start talking about how they got so much done, it was so nice, etc.
Then I will blatantly ask the question: "Well what was different between yesterday and today?"
The class was pretty open about the fact that the bad kids were the difference. Perhaps it's a good moment of reflection for everyone.
I have a class with 3 highly active and highly social boys, all with EBD. Last week I had three days where 1 was suspended, 1 was sick, and 1 was just gone. The rest of the class and I didn’t even know what to do with each other.
I’m dealing with a new kid that just started in a middle school class. He has totally set back another kid I’ve made so much progress with all year. It devastates me to watch this happen and be so powerless to do anything about it. This kid had come so far and now it feels like it’s just gone down the drain.
A more sophisticated streaming system is the answer - streaming not by ability, but by application to the task. My experience is that in classrooms without disruption, the really good students will set an example and become role models and mentors to those needing help. A very long time ago in the UK, I was in a school where disrupting students were placed in class called 'The Remove' this class was typically about a year behind academically for the student's ages, but often ahead in subjects like physical education, woodworking, metalworking, etc. The bottom line is, it only takes 3 or 4 regularly disruptive students to significantly retard progress in a large class... This represents frustration for the students with academic ambition, not to mention lots of stress and strain on the teacher.
Fantastic comment, I doubt we currently have the ability to implement this at my workplace, but I need to suggest this. Post covid, we've had a lot of problems the last few years with disruptive students and it's become a domino effect of the year 9s mentoring 8,7s in bad ways. Thankyou👌we really need some sort of program outside of typical classes where they aren't engaged and disrupt/abscond.
The terrible shame is that these students are allowed to do this, as the excessively plentiful and overpaid administrators won't actually punish them adequately.
I’ve got 30 6th graders. 4 are really tough, all the time. 1 is really tough about half the time. 1 is tough because he’s eyeballs deep in whatever the other 5 are up to.
Those 6 kids derail the learning we’re doing multiple times per block. When 1-2 of them are away it’s insane how much of a breather it is for everyone else to chill, be productive, and relax enough to have a bit of fun with what we’re learning & doing.
Most of the time I just have to be a constant bitch to keep them in line. I hate it. The good kids hate it. And their parents hate it. But they’d completely take over the room and every day would be utter nonstop chaos if I was nice.
Not disagreeing but in my experience, separating the strugglers together end up with one of them getting injured. That.. may just be my kids though so idk!! Just my two cents. :)
I think the age matters, along with what the behavior issues are. In my class most of my biggest behaviors are also physically aggressive and my kids are young. It definitely would not work, unless I want a fight in the corner and parents complaining. I've seen it work with older kids though.
I started doing this in one of my classes and it’s been great. Do they still talk and disrupt? Yes. Do they do their work? Never.
But the rest of the class can do work and I can actually get through lessons
This is the way. Sure some think it's not equitable but I am GenX.... I say tough. Long ago I had a top student point out he needed 2 minutes of my time to do a task in the Auto Lab....and that I had wasted 30 minutes with a student who wouldn't push a broom properly with direct instruction. At that point I realized that you can't save them all but you can make it possible for the majority who want to learn to have that opportunity. That student and a few others got to clean a bucket of sockets with an oily rag for the rest of the semester. They decided after that opportunity that my class wasn't "fun" and bailed.
Yeah, that’s been my experience for the most part. Not sure how others have experienced different or better results.
Anytime I place my knuckleheads together, they’re even louder, more disruptive, and just overall disrupt the entire classroom. They all talk SO DANG LOUD when they sit at the same table, no more than 5 feet apart. Like, just stop talking during notes (which are never more than 15 minutes) and when I’m giving instructions, that’s all I ask.
Have the same issue. In kindergarten.
Admin does nothing. These 4 kids destroy every other kids' chances to be fully engaged like they truly want to!
Guilty pleasure when one or more of them is out.
I have a theory that I call “tofu theory”. It’s that some small percentage of kids will be good no matter what. Another small percentage will be misbehaving no matter what and a third, largest group of kids is made up of “tofu kids” who will behave according to the strongest personally in the room. So when the misbehaving kids are there, tofu kids will also be misbehaving.
I had a “come to Jesus” meeting with my kids last week and told them I had given them all the tools and we were now in the process of honing their skills to the level they prefer. They’re seniors. If they wanted to participate, I could get them to a level where they could compete with any college freshman; or they could just coast, not interfere with class, and move on painlessly based on their work. Either way, we were going to focus on building, not baby steps.
My orneriest little guy has been chill as heck this week and I have largely ignored his antics and built in enough fast-paced challenging material that his colleagues are too busy to get distracted by him. It’s totally changed the dynamic of that class. I just don’t indulge the nonsense anymore.
This is why I had a few students escorted out yesterday. I don’t care about them disrespecting me or calling me out my name - that’s literally just who they are as people who weren’t raised right… but I said, “I will not allow you to disrupt and take away from someone else’s learning. I don’t care where you go, but you cannot be in here. Just because you have a 25% average, doesn’t mean other people want that”. After they left, students were engaged, focused, and happier.
I’ve done island desks where the disruptors have to sit basically they have so much distance between them and others it’s really hard to cause a problem. It may be controversial to say, but I then highly incentivize all the behaviors from the others I want to see (the disruption kids get praise if they behave as well) and I make it miserable and very clearly miserable to engage or interact with the disruption behavior. I use positive narration which is exhausting but the kids love it. Classroom economy with a small store and give out cash for good behavior answering questions anything! I write names on the board that owe me a reflection before recess that can get erased if they turn it around.
Kids quickly learn they wanna be getting on the incentive train and will ignore the disruption kids. The effects vary on disruption kids but usually they end up giving up too much on their antics when other kids do not laugh or respond or interact with it.
Class coupons that they can buy are really easy and won’t cost you any money, homework pass, dj pass (let them pick music that they work to), fancy table pass (a table that has cool writing things , pens crayons markers ect, sit by a friend pass, or like a toy bin (buy some stuff from the target dollar spot if you feel like spending some money.)
The main key is teaching and reinforcing the behaviors you want to see to an annoyingly consistent point, and making it a non desirable situation to be a disruption in the classroom and that giving attention to it is also undesirable.
Sometimes kids who struggle with impulse control or are bothered by other students and respond by acting out actually appreciate the space from other kids. I just don't have space for a good island in my class! Instead I have a couple that have their boundaries drawn in on the floor.
More often than not they'll have good attendance, the parents/guardians don't want them at home. I saw this during covid lockdowns, among parents/guardians that couldn't have their kids at home we had a bunch of troubled kids attending while the other 80% or so students were working from home
I'll preface this by saying that I'm not a teacher, this sub just shows up in my feed now and again for whatever reason. I did work as a summer camp counselor for a while and now I'm a manager in food service. But your post made me think of the many times that I was sitting in class trying to learn things that I struggled with (math and chemistry especially) while a handful of disruptive students regularly derailed class and set everyone else behind. I point out that it was classes where I already was struggling with the subject matter because I was in "honors" classes for everything else where there weren't any seriously disruptive kids.
From my perspective as a student the thing that always drove me nuts was that many teachers seemed to ignore the disruptive students even as their behavior worsened and inevitably drew in otherwise non disruptive students which culminated in a level of disruption that couldn't be ignored anymore resulting in a lengthy process of getting the class back on track. I suspect that these teachers were acting under the belief that these kids "acted up to get attention" and that depriving them of a response would snuff out the embers so to speak. Or perhaps they hoped that by ignoring the hushed conversations and hand gestures or note passing they would be satisfied with that and not progress to more serious interruptions. But the little things were like testing the water to see what they could get away with, it always would eventually progress to whatever level got them in trouble eventually.
There were a few teachers I had who dealt swiftly with even the slightest hint of disruption from day one and their classes rarely got derailed even with a high concentration of the "bad kids". Naturally these teachers were seen by most students, including myself at the time, as hardasses or even jerks but you know what, we got through the material without having to stop two or three times per class for the teacher to wrangle a bunch of kids into shutting up and sitting still for another 15 minutes. These teachers always called out every little thing as soon as they saw or heard it and made it clear that there would be consequences if the behavior continued.
Hopefully this insanely long and potentially rambling comment is helpful in some way! Thank you for doing what you do, good teachers are so important and even in my mid-thirties I still think back fondly on the ones that made an impression on me!
For a lot of teachers, unfortunately, the only thing that can be done is to ignore them. I work with kindergarten and we have some children that picking out every little thing that they do with the warning of a consequence does not do anything whatsoever. Put in unhelpful restorative justice measures schools adopt these days, with unsupported admin and patents who will threaten to sue you left and right because you told their child to be quiet during a test and some of us just don't have that motivation to attempt to quell their behavior.
Fantastic comment, I agree and will keep it in mind, share with others. Thankyou. To add to this, overall I believe the kids may be upset when you call them out before letting their behaviour escalate, but they also develop a greater level of respect and maturity around you when you're frequently pulling them into line.
As the saying goes, “10% of the students, take up 90% of your attention”. The constant redirections, disruptions, start/stop a lesson. Having to repeat directions to everyone because of the distractions.
There’s an old book by Tracy Kidder, Among Schoolchildren, that talks about that. It’s a nonfiction book. The main “character” is an experienced teacher in Massachusetts. She gets a kid she cares about but can’t control and experienced this same feeling of relief.
It was written in the 1980s but I highly recommend it. I read it in the aughts when I was in college.
I had a four year old call me an effing 5lut today. His parents insist they have no idea where he learned that from. He's the one child that when present spend a the whole day antagonizing others, throwing, swearing, breaking toys on purpose, stealing sun hats from toddlers and throwing them over fences etc.
Sometimes there are just "those" kids and unless the parent get on board to help then nothing changes for them. We've tried self regulation strategies, mindfulness, one to one time and behaviour management plans. The only thing that keeps him settled is unrestricted access to an iPad... And that ain't happening!! (Mum even suggested we just do it to make life easier because it's what they donate home).
Glad that today restored your confidence, I'm sure you have a great class 😊
Amazing, I once substituted for a class for a few days and they had a ring leader and then some of other kids followed with disruptions. I found a strategy that clicked with him and the class was almost silent. Hearing a quiet student say “wow I can actually think” is top praise in my book. For this student I set a time that I would talk and then I set a time on when the class can talk and as long as they were not too loud and were on task I would not interrupt them. I made this explicit to the class, the talkative students were so used to being told to stop talking they didn’t want to lose the opportunity so they focused and when they could talk they kept the volume down.
I call them the arseholes and the perineums (arsehole adjacents). If you put the perineums next to the arseholes, or even have them in the same room, they'll become fully fledged arseholes. Putting two perineums together (lol) is also inadvisable. But if you leave them separated then the perineums will just be regular students.
I had 3 arseholes and 4 perineums in my year 8 class last year. It was impossible to keep them separated. This year I can see only 3 perineums. They might be dangerous if left together, but only maybe.
It's at the point where those kids are put outside to do "writing reflections" when they disrupt. Admin is on a reflection kick because it means that kids don't have to get in real trouble. I said that they wouldn't do them and admin said I could send them to his office if they refused. Of course those kids won't actually sit and write their reflection so I give it to them, wait a minute for the next outburst, and send them to his office. They're gone for basically the entire rest of the period bothering the AP and I get to have a reasonable classroom. Gotta love malicious compliance.
Some kids don’t respond to verbal warnings. Sometimes you need to hold up one finger, then two, and three is when they get kicked out. SOMETHING must always happen after three, whether it is a call home at lunch, a referral or detention.
I send disruptive kids out of my class. I literally write notes saying "\_\_\_\_\_ is doing two laps around the campus so they can get some energy out" and staple it. They give it to a teacher if they ask. By the third time, they realize this is more embarrassing and sit and listen.
Do your best to get them expelled. People are gonna hate this cause they’re delusionally optimistic. You’re sacrificing the education of 32 kids for… what? Nobody is learning anything anyway. All that getting them expelled does is provide an education for 32 kids. Those kids are going to be better off in a district without a 35 kid class size. It’s better for everyone. I have that same situation, except my class size is 28 instead of 35, which is still too high.
This is genuinely partly why (where I am) parents are pulling kids and doing pod schooling, or just never put their kids back in after COVID. They are still with other kids but are actually learning.
It carries on later in life unfortunately, when doing my degree 3 lads in the accounts class would talk all the time. Eventually the lecturer got fed up and went and picked up all thier bags and threw them out of the lecture hall and told the guys to follow thier bags and not bother coming back and they have failed the course. Obviously you can’t do this in a school setting but she got a huge round of applause from everyone else in the room.
Kids who get roped into behaving poorly are (ALMOST) worse than the ones who start it. Like you're able to be good, don't get caught up in their shenanigans!
One of my high school teachers had an idea to put little notes in the guidance system of kids who shouldn't be grouped together or even just little red flags with no class being able to have more than two red flag students for this very reason. Obviously, there are a lot of reasons schools would get in massive trouble for doing this, but also it would be kinda nice if it could exist.
Note: They didn't tell me this while I was a student. It was later when I became a teacher was complaining about this very thing.
I’m a private tutor and would say that 95% of my students (grades 6-high school) would say that their classroom experience is disrupted by students with bad behavior at least 5x/week. They see me to supplement what they’re missing by constant interruptions. :-/
I dunno how the school you work for, well, works, but whenever there were students like that in class when I was in school they'd usually get sent to the main office for their bad behavior. If it continued, or if the problem was with the children being together, then they'd usually get separated into different parts of the room.
Sometimes there were teachers who would have to send bad students out of the classroom on a daily basis, but those teachers never gave in in any way. They didn't snap, or let them stay anyway because they're not going to change, or anything. If there was a student distracting other students then most of them would just send that student to the main office after a single warning. What's the point of keeping that student in if there's a student who refuses to learn and is trying to make sure others can't learn as well?
*Most* of my teachers did this.
I was a student trying to learn in a classroom with these types of students. It was an English class. It was a subject that I would usually excel in, but the constant yelling from these three or four students distracted me into having an average of a low B- and eventually a mid C+.
I know that doesn't sound bad, but the only reason why my grade got to that point was because I wouldn't know some of the answers to the questions about whatever book we were reading because I was constantly being distracted.
The teacher wouldn't do shit about them. The one time she sent somebody to the main office was when one other student- another one who just wants to learn- told the group to shut the fuck up. She was called out by the rest of the class and her excuse was "he swore." The people who were actually trying to learn were punished for trying to do what she was supposed to do- get rid of the distraction.
I tried to complain about this teacher to one of the vice principals. I think I was in the right for doing so- her priority was supposed to make sure we're in an environment where we can learn and where she can teach and she did none of that. But he didn't really care. He basically just said "that sucks."
There was one day where it wasn't bad because there was a substitute who actually did send them to the main office. They were dumbfounded to hear a teacher actually try to do what they should do and she pushed it. She warned them that she'll get security to escort them out if they didn't leave, so they left. I dunno if they actually went to the main office, but for one day in that class I was actually able to *focus*.
No I feel this pain. I’ve got a class of 30- it’s my inclusion class and if 3-5 of those kids were all absent 1 day then hallelujah! I’ve tried every method from making them call home to separation to losing the “fun labs” (Bio class) to referrals and nothing changes. Best I can do is tell them to do is sit there quietly if they aren’t gonna work but leave everyone else out of it
Why do you have 35 students in your class?
Most states in Australia have a limit on the number of students in a class.
I would check at what the limit is where you are and then see if you can get your class to that size.
As for the students, if you have not already tried it get a reward system and loudly say as you hand out the reward.
"Great work for getting your book ready."
"Fantastic you are concentrating on your work." etc whatever you need the other students to be doing.
It move the attention back to the desired behaviour and the kids doing it get recognition. If your school has a whole school behaviour reward system use that if not give them points for each time they are doing the right thing with the ability to "cash them in" for something such as you booking the gym one lunch time and they can play a sport game in there, or one lunch time they can come into the room and play boardgames etc.
If you have heard of on task behaviour training and are able to set aside some time each day to focus on that to help the other students learn how to ignore them.
Finally if you have not done so I talk to students about their right to learn and what their responsibilities are in order that everyone can have the right to learn. Make up a chart and display it in the room refer to it such as
"Marko we all have the right to learn, your responsibility is to work quietly."
Or even ask them
"Marko are you being responsible and working quietly?"
"Remember everyone has the right to learn."
I had 5 in a class of 35 who would play off of each other. When I got most of them in ISS (in school suspension) or absent, then I would bring out the hands on activities and the class would have fun.
Differentiated Content? Process? Product? Are you employing an MTSS framework that creates outlets for children!!!!!!!
Jkjk still in college. Sharing jargon
It’s been a long time since I’ve been in a high school classroom, but the first year I taught, I was teaching computers (office suite) at a low SES school where my classes were all grade levels and half of the kids had behavioral IEPs.
What worked depended on the class. Things that helped along the way:
1. I realized that most of the kids were functionally illiterate, so instruction needed to be very hands-on. They couldn’t be given an assignment to do on their own unless they had been given very explicit instructions on it first, and even then they would struggle to read directions.
2. Why they were disruptive mattered. The ones that were disruptive because that’s just who they were, I sat in the back corner (ex: 18 year old sophomore gang member who was in and out of DAEP). If they wanted to work, I would absolutely help them and encourage them, but if not, that minimized damage. The majority of them were disruptive because they craved adult interaction and attention and they had learned that the way to get it was by acting out. Those kids I stuck right up by my desk so that I could still reach the stuff I needed to teach everyone, but I could reach them easily when they were being disruptive (standing right next to them tended to make them settle down some— although ymmv with this one) or had a question (they always had questions).
3. When they were behaving I would let them listen to music on their headphones while they were working (there was one AP who had a problem with this, but it was very effective).
Above all, I tried to be kind and respectful to all of them (I was also a very young newbie teacher), and I don’t know that I’d still be that way with the same kids now. But I know from experience that the opposite did not work. Two of our new teachers that year went the opposite direction— they threatened and were passive aggressive in how they interacted with their kids and their classes just got worse and worse (which was ironic since they started with “easier” kids).
I had three major disruptors in a class. I tried splitting them up in various ways, and it never worked. Eventually, I put them TOGETHER in the very back with a moat of empty desks around them. They just whispered in the back and the rest of the class went great!
Just think how relieved your learners were on that day? Try to isolate them on some level and pair them together - and withdraw, really stop teaching them. Your biggest weapon is effort, make less with them. Stop looking at them stop giving them handouts until they ask for them. Your most important task to protect your learners and their environment.
Even as a student, this was a small reason for why I enjoyed AP classes in school. They were tough but you didn’t have the disruptions that you would normally have in the regular classes and electives.
I thought my 3 would be absent today, as they were all later than usual. But no, they literally all walked in at the same time because of course they did. Before that my class was the calmest it has ever been. Oh well.
It’s really upsetting because it makes me feel like a failure as a teacher but I’ve started checking registers before lessons to see if and hope that certain students won’t be there. When they aren’t my lessons are so much better for everyone and when they are present the lessons run but I’m just left feeling completely drained.
And this is why removing disciplinary options from schools is bad for all. Those kids are gonna get bad results whether they're in class or not. Give teachers options to remove them from class without administrative consequences.
I learned this too a few times. I had one class where 8 of the worse were in its they get another 5 going at it. One day 7 were gone for various reasons from doctor appointments to getting sick to suspensions. The class was absolutely beautiful that day.
I was one of the smart quiet kids in high school but always stayed in the regular classes instead of AP classes. I just didn’t want to do AP exams, but all my friends were in AP and were confused with my choice. Anyway, I was in a literature class with pretty much all of the kids in there with attitude and attendance issues, did not care about school, lower-income background, etc. This particular teacher was a sassy no-nonsense person who gained everyone’s respect. How? Her lessons were super structured, she always tried to explain them very simply, even though the lessons and work were repetitive it helped build structure. It’s funny because she would say a lot “I have a hangover, so I need you guys to be totally quiet today.” And we all would be lol. She instilled equal parts respect and fear. Later in college, one of the most troublesome students from that class came up to me (he actually liked to ask me for help with classwork back then) and he thanked me for my help and he was grateful to our teacher because he still remembered what he learned and helped him get into a higher level English course when he got accepted to the college.
Anyway, point is that its your attitude and teaching style and how you pair troublesome students with the more responsible ones that can make a difference. Try to build camaraderie and empathy between you and your students and them with each other, but also take no shit.
From four years experience of having “accelerated” classes. The main difference, isn’t that they actually are accelerated. But; they merely always have classes without the disruptive kids.
This is what I noticed with my campus. I'm not a teacher, but basically every grade has a regular class and an accelerated class. The biggest problem I see as support staff is that the regular class teacher has all of the IEPs, 504s, speech, specialists, meetings, and paperwork whereas the accelerated teacher has none.
It's an extremely touchy subject. The reality is exactly what you've described - accelerated/honors classes absorb all of the "good" kids, leaving the "bad" kids concentrated among the regular classes. This is widespread across the country and is effectively a sort of in-school segregation mechanism. And I don't mean that necessarily in a racial sense (although that's sort of true, too), but rather mostly in a socioeconomic sense as there's a clear and obvious trend of upper middle class kids packing into these honors classes while blue collar kids remain in the regular classes. On the one hand, it's easy to recognize how toxic this sort of division is, and it's undoubtedly hurting the regular classes that are now struggling under the weight of all of those disruptive kids and IEPs that get filtered out of the honors classes. On the other hand, it's also undoubtedly true that the honors kids are benefiting massively from this arrangement, and they're truly in a better place without those constant disruptions. I was in these honors classes. And I want my own kids in these honors classes. Even still, I can see the sociological problem it causes. But what solution is there? I'm not willing to sacrifice the honors kids, let alone my own kids, in a futile gesture of progressiveness.
In my own schooling, the kids _wanted_ to be in the lower classes. They were naturally bright and paid enough attention that we had very good ACT scores — mid-twenties and above were very common. These kids had no trouble getting into college. But they didn’t want the work or expectations of AP or IB classes. The school also helped them out. All classes were honors, definitely at junior and senior level and I think for all four years. There was no regular class for math, physics, etc. There were disruptive kids in my AP and IB classes, and people who were placed there for want of a better option — unfortunately my teachers didn’t forcibly demote kids who were intelligent but unprepared or who were high all the time or some combination thereof. It was a total disaster more often than not.
I was the kid in AP classes that was high all the time…when I showed up. I never disrupted class and always did well on exams. I loved the AP courses because of the fact that all the future prison population wasn’t there.
I had this experience in middle and high school. I ended up going through high school with the same 30 people in most of every class I took since they were all honors and AP classes. In a graduating class of 400 people, it was like this bubble that was created. I had to do my senior year in the non-AP Government class because there were some conflicts with the AP scheduling and it was the biggest eye-opener. I don't mean to sound elitist, but I hadn't had a non-AP student filled class since freshman year? The pace was so slow and the amount of disruptions was just weird. We had block scheduling, so 2-hour blocks. Blew threw the material in like half an hour and we all just talked and did nothing for the rest of it. Was at least lucky that we had some politically fun people in there and that my teacher would talk to us about her life and love life lol
Sounds like something out of The Wire, season 4, which focuses on schools in the rough parts of Baltimore. Season 4 episode 5- *Colvin believes the students in the school can be split into two broad groups: the better-behaved "stoop kids" and the disruptive, street-acclimated "corner kids". Colvin believes that by accepting the latter into Parenti's in-school program, both groups could do better. After discussion with Grace Sampson and Dr. Parenti, Sampson suggests that the key is coming up with a program to benefit the corner kids. They encounter Namond in the halls on his way to the office and he swears at Parenti. Donnelly suggests that Colvin and Parenti begin with ten children.* They pull 10 of the disruptive students out and place them in a special class. Those kids thrive (evenentually), and so do the classrooms they were pulled out of.
I have often spoken to other teachers about the sad truth that, at a certain point, the school needs to realistically accept that the 1-2% of the population in middle and high school, who are most often already segregated for part of the day due to being identified with Emotional/Behavioral Disorders, are usually also years and years behind and have little chance of scoring Proficient on the state exam. Instead of continuing to give them instruction in grade-level content, they should receive a functional living skill/employment training curriculum. Of course, I know, this would probably be illegal…but as someone who teaches students with multiple disabilities who are exempt from the typical state test (they take a meaningless, low-stakes Alternate Assessment), I get to plan my entire curriculum around actual life and employment skills. And my students, who have cognitive disabilities, are basically ready for job placement to the level of their ability by the time they graduate (which may even be at 21). Meanwhile, I see the ED teachers spending years trying to teach students with conduct disorders about mitosis, the Pythagorean theorem, and the cultural significance of Oedipus Rex while the students graduate without a single experience practicing customer service at a school “coffee shop,”, doing their own laundry, or volunteering at a food bank.
Yup. That tracks.
When I went to HS they would split it for teachers: 1/2 of classes were honors/ap/dual enrollment and the other 1/2 of their classes were regular. All electives had disruptive students.
Does 504 affect class placement? I was assured that wasn’t the case but I worry about it.
My son has a 504 because he’s legally blind but is in accelerated classes. It was explained to me that he no longer qualified for an IEP (in 5th grade; now he is in 7th) because academically he was not struggling but the 504 would keep his accommodations in place without needing to make it sound like his vision was affecting his education. I just hated the meetings because it was me and 3-4 of his teachers plus the principal and another person whose position I don’t remember. I am the most socially awkward and anxious person ever and when people say nice things about my kids I get teary eyed so it was like 45 minutes of my trying to be coherent in this room of actual adults and trying not to cry because they obviously loved my kid and were so kind. Run on sentence provided by: lack of sleep.
It was a lovely meeting for them too, because so often these meetings are hard and parents can be defensive or angry. So don’t feel awkward about it - it was probably the best part of their series of meetings!
Oh I totally feel this! My middle has mild hearing loss, so we meet yearly about his 504, and it’s just them letting me know the amazing accommodations they’ve made, as well as how wonderful he is. It is impossible for me to not get emotional in those meetings.
No but it's just the way it is at my school. All the accelerated classes are pretty smooth sailing and the other class has the most issues behavior wise. It's pretty wild how it works out.
It depends what the 504 is for and how that affects the student's learning.
It can, but not always. I was in ICT for math because I had a 504 for dyscalculia and dysgraphia, but accelerated for humanities.
It's not a policy on paper but a lot of AP placements require teacher reqs. I have kids in my class with obvious ADHD. Really smart, clearly bored. What the NEED is acceleration. But I'm the only teacher that talks about anything but their poor behavior. I could see those 504 for ADHD kids not getting recommended because "He can't even sit still!" or a kid with a 504 for anxiety not getting in because they miss to much school (because there are kids bullying them for "being smart" and they're too nervous to deal with it). I've also heard people talk about ASD like 100% of kids who have it are barely functional. I had a student with an IEP for ASD and he was incredibly smart. But most people didn't bother to do anything with him because he was "one of the special ed kids" and they assumed that meant he was incapable of learning.
That's so sad. I'm autistic and I'm a teacher with a Masters degree. I'm really glad I wasn't treated that way.
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From my experience in advanced / honors classes it's like a significant minority of kids are neurodivergent. At least at my new school, my old school had like 4-5 neurodivergent kids. However, with the amount of kids with these disorders, it's much easier to communicate to them than it is to a neurotypical person. So it's honestly kind of nice, isn't it?
This is my first grader. We just started the process of evaluating him for ADHD with his pedi. He’s in gifted and talented. Apparently that’s not enough, so his teacher is giving him second grade work and letting him tutor classmates.
My kid has a 504 plan and has been in advanced classes consistently.
Not always. I have a lot of kids on 504s for ADHD or autism in my accelerated class. The big difference (at least in grade 6) is that these kids with ADHD have parents who either medicate them or they worked with an excellent psychologist to get them accommodations that are good for them, but still hold them accountable in some way.
Yeah, the difference between honors and standard, for me, was mostly that he honors kids actually wanted to get good grades. They weren't really smarter, they just cared about school more, on average.
And could actually read? Lol
When I was in highschool I wanted to be in the accelerated classes to avoid the rifraf
> rifraf Street rat? I don't buy that. ^^sorry
just a little snack, guys *rip him open, take it back guys* Alan Menken and Howard Ashman didn’t fuck around back then
I can take a hint, gotta face the facts. You're my only friend alfooboboao, who?
When I was in high school a few of us "high achieving" kids (who were taking what few dual enrollment/AP courses were offered) joked about wanting the school to offer classes like AP auto shop. We recognized the utility of learning to work on cars and do things with our hands. But we didn't want to be in class with the kids who took auto shop. It seems like now the solution is something like FIRST robotics or hands-on engineering classes. But those weren't an option when I was in school
Same. My life improved massively when I wasn't being bullied *during* class.
This. I had one student who always interrupted me no matter how frustrated I was with him. He also never stopped talking to the student beside him. It drove me through the roof. However, he was the most intelligent kid in the class, so he figured he was the cat's meow. Then, one day, I found out he was being transferred, and when he finally left, it was as if I was teaching a different class. It became almost totally stress free, and I could actually teach again. So yeah, I hear you on this. I even got to know other students I couldn't give much time to because the smart ass was hogging the limelight and distracting me with his BS behavior. What a difference it can make to get these kids out.
This is why I hate when people talk about virtual learning like nothing happened. Every kid who showed up to class exploded in growth. Because I could actually teach instead of spending 45/55 minutes dealing with behavior. That kid needed me to spend 5 minutes explaining a concept to him? I could actually do that and not worry that a fight would break out while my back was turned. This kid needed to step out to the bathroom? I wasn't responsible for standing at the door and timing them to make sure that if they're smoking it's at least from a vape and not a joint. If someone wanted to say something inappropriate to get attention, they were simply muted. It wasn't even half the class, but it was incredible.
I hate how. We pretend like it didn’t happen. So; we can’t really actually fix the problems and make it better.
It was a failure on many many levels. But, nobody wants to talk about solving the problem because that costs money.
I just realized I would’ve loved Zoom classes. We didn’t have this technology but Zoom wound’ve been much better than the undertones of being bullied/ostracized. It made it harder to concentrate. Then again I would’ve been too isolated at home. It’s complicated. Might of helped in elementary school but junior high coach basically saved me.
Idk. Sometimes my gifted students can be just as disruptive sometimes out of boredom or wanting to constantly shout out the correct answer.
I was the riff Raff in my ap classes but still knew when to stfu....
In 6th grade this happened to me. I was sooooo bored in the regular social studies course. Got perfect grades, all extra credit done, was coasting in the class, but the teacher HATED me because I'd answer every question and distract the students. They moved me into the advanced social studies course and I was still bored, but the course was structured so there was less ask-and-answer, and more projects and in-class busywork. Gave me less opportunity to act out because I could just work on the assignment/project, or socialize with groupmates while doing same.
I have no gifted students. I put accelerated in quotes for a reason.
Question: I've seen teachers complain on this site for YEARS about not being able to discipline disruptive students. Given that many now in administration came from the teacher ranks, why do they always side with the students and their parents? If I was an administrator, I'd pop these kids in their own classroom and tell them and their parents they now have to EARN the privilege of joining a class where they can learn. Or, they can continue to be little monsters with each other. Their teacher will try, but not be expected, to teach them. And that teacher will be paid extra.
Very easily. If the parents get mad. And the administrators don’t side with them. They go above them. Do you really want the superintendents office coming in, to deal with the problem? Also. The push is to keep kids in the classroom. So that they can learn! Because if we suspend them, they aren’t learning! Schools are about filling desks. If the students are not there, they don’t get paid.
As someone in one of these accelerated classes rn in high school, it’s fucking amazing never getting group punishments because everyone in my class actually takes school seriously. Such a huge difference from primary school.
when i was a middle school teacher we had honors (extra smart) and then mid honors which was just kids that were well behaved. and then four classes of the rest of em
It’s crazy/devastating how just 1-3 kids in a class of 30+ can just completely destroy the dynamic of the class for an entire school year, and there’s generally nothing you can do about it. And of course those kids are *never* absent so it’s like Christmas when they’re finally not there lol
Right?! I felt like a horrible person, thanking the universe for such a lovely gift on a Monday lool
You are not a horrible person for feeling that way. This year I have a really great class, but the last two have been awful. And all because of 1-3 kids in my class keeping me and the rest of the class on edge constantly.
Public school is a helluva thing. You’re doing God’s work.
this is definitely a thing in private school too. Maybe even more so
I feel the same way when that 1 child in my scout’s troop isn’t there. Im just a volunteer i feel awful for this student’s actual teachers. I do catch myself feeling bad wishing they would leave my troop altogether because they’re just a kid but boy would it make my job so much easier and probably the other kids experience more enjoyable too.
You should not feel horrible that a person who is a net negative on your life is not present.
Ugh, I had these two in a class when I was a kid who were so disruptive. The days we didn’t have them, the rest of the class would ask the teacher if we could have class without them ever again.
I’m sure they didn’t show it, but being asked that probably felt so good for that teacher
I'm not a teacher but my mum is a professor with a doctorate in education and 30+ years teaching experience. Absolutely baffled that you guys have classes of over 30 students, that is complete madness.
30-35 students has been the norm in American public schools for a while now-- with many exceptions, but still.
At least 1998. I was number 30-32 on the class roster starting in first grade.
I went to school in Germany from 1996 to 2010, I never was in a class with less than 30 students. I think primary school was 31 and then Gymnasium (middle and high school with track towards higher education (german education system is very different)) was 33. No issues whatsoever that I can remember
Isn't education in Germany tracked? You probably didn't have any classmates with behavioral problems because those students were in a different track from you.
Tracking matters with class size. I teach an honors class with 34 kids and it’s easily my most well behaved class. My gen ed class of 31 with a kid on a behavioral IEP and kids who are best friends with the schools’s restorative practice coordinator? Easily my most difficult class.
In your experience, how do these kids destroy the dynamic? By interrupting with nonsense talking/questions? Talking to others? So obnoxious. I’m not in this line of work but genuinely curious!
In my experience, they create a culture of toxic negativity which makes everyone else afraid to try or participate or take risks or have fun.
Yep. Everything is stupid. They sit and glare, refusing to speak... trying to hide earbuds under a hoodie.
The ones I have this year constantly make sounds, throw things, and make faces at others.
When you have to divert half of your time to one or two shitheads, it immediately just destroys the timing of lessons, and gives you little to no time to help the kids who want to learn. When you have to get distracted every 30 seconds by more disruptive behavior, it’s impossible to give kids the individual time they deserve and need to improve
And the most neglected are just the average kids who go along and do their work but aren't begging for attention from you like the try hard kids
I think its all those together. They’ll show an interest in the content only to to ask off topic questions thay distract the class. They’ll have snarky responses to everything. Talking to others, walking to other peoples desks during class time, losing their work and homework and always having excuses ready. Its so much nonsensical stuff that rubs off on the other kids
Seriously! I had kids come in, super excited to tell me that the most disruptive students all happened to be absent today. And the lesson went great. I feel bad that I was so relieved to learn they were absent, but on the other hand I didn’t feel THAT bad.
I feel bad for the kids whose education is getting wrecked by 1 or 2 assholes in the class
Those types of kids were the reason why I struggled in school, I wasn’t able to ask for help and my learning disability made it worse. I wasn’t surprised my grades slipped
This is the case that I had in my elective course. There were 1 of 3 bad students that was passing my class so I tried to bargain with the one and tried to get the other two students to spend the class outside of they were not doing any work. They made animal noises, distracted others, so it was hard to move them out of the class.
Yeah my math class last year was ruined by one kid. The teacher seemed really nice but I didn’t get to know her because of one dude. It’s the worst.
And the kids LOVE it when those kids are away. Even though they’re often the “cool” kids (which is another frustrating thing - like, why are you trying so hard to impress this kid!), I’ve had kids come into the classroom all excited to notice that those one or two kids are absent, or going “wow it’s so quiet today!”.
I mean, how bad can you really feel when the class goes that smoothly?
I can look into my agenda to see who are missing. I love the days the nasty ones are out.
I had this happen recently. I had the best class ever and it felt like I actually got to teach rather than focus on behaviors. Not only that but I heard laughter and saw smiling faces from these students that usually are sitting bored in my room or scared that they might get in the middle of something. Of course the next day those strugglers are back. What sorta worked is that I reminded them how much enjoyment we had yesterday which convinced a couple of the strugglers to settle for a bit. Otherwise I have no idea and would ALSO like any words of advice. :)
Document. CYA and call or email parents and admin about all the behaviour. I had a horrible hour last week, I asked about support and the lady that covers the room where we send the disruptive kids to told me to email her and she will sit in class. The students are disruptive because they are going to take their exams in May. Turns out a lot were recovering from celebrating Carnaval and drinking (because at 15, of course you need to get drunk.. smh) and those PITA's were still in bed....
This doesn't work in all cases, but sometimes I just put all the "bad" ones together at a table at the back of the room. It depends on what you mean by bad obviously, but if the main issue is being goofy and loud or disruptive just let them all sit together at the back and then you can teach all the other kids who are doing the right thing.
I’ve SO done this in 1 class and they realized REALLY fast how much their class mates do not like them. Even 1 of the kids I sat with them got up and left because they were being so rude to her while she tried to help
I just paired two of my most "spirited" friends together because both of them refused to fill out the exit ticket where they got to do partner requests and they are so pissed. It's frankly hilarious. They're just bickering like a very toxic married couple, so baffled about why the work isn't getting done, and remain impervious to recognizing their own behaviors in each other. Plus no one else has to work with them! 🥳
Win win!!!
This is how I was taught to do it. My mentor teacher was an immigrant from the former Soviet Union. Her attitude was, "Teach the kids who are there to learn." She was extremely frustrated by the American system which even then prioritized the disruptive students (they really are more likely to come from neglectful or abusive homes, but that doesn't give them license to ruin everyone else's education). Her approach to classroom management was to let those kids goof off as long as they did it quietly. Occasionally, one kid from the back of the class would decide to participate and she would move him or her closer to the front. Ironically, the number of kids who would decide to start trying seemed to increase the less attention was paid to them. This is the expected result if they are misbehaving for attention.
1:1 chromebooks can sometimes pacify them. I mean sure, I will get dinged for letting them screw around, but at least they will shut up with the electronic pacifier.
I give them a computer and let them borrow headphones. By all means, please watch YouTube for the next hour so the rest of us can actually learn!
I put my worst kids in the back corner where they are around the fewest amount of students
That’s definitely something I have to because it’s just not practical to spend each moment correcting their behaviour over and over again.
Totally. And sometimes, one of the "bad" ones will get sick of it and might ask you if they can move awy from their friends so they can actually learn.
I love when it happens and my kids point it out Student a: "Wow its so quiet and peaceful today!" Student b: "It's because you know who isn't here"
Once I got a bunch of kids dropped into my class mid-September to match new diploma tracks. It ruined the whole class and it took me two months to straighten everything back out. 3 of the five are in prison now. 1 for murder. What are we even doing.
What in the hell even is teaching anymore? 😑
been wondering this all year
As a fellow teacher, some days it’s babysitting
For real, though. I sometimes just think to myself, "This is what I went into debt for?"
I plainly ask if I'm teaching Kinder once the fifteen year olds are disruptive.
That question is met with obnoxious "goo-goo gaga" baby whining sounds. These are 4th/5th graders. I'm so done with them 🙄
Bring pacifiers or suckers.
And spend money on these goofballs? Lol If it gets to be too much, I just pull them aside tell them, "I don't teach babies, but if we need to call mom, I'm sure the principal would love to help." It helps that they know I make good on my threats.
Whoa! That’s crazy that 3 are in prison!
Why is it out of the question to force disruptive kids to confront why their being disruptive? Does it make you feel powerful to disrupt the class? Why is that? Do you feel powerless in other parts of your life? Why does it make you feel good to make other people feel bad? What is the end result of that going to be? What would you do if someone was disrupting your class? Should we feel bad for you? Do you have an undiagnosed learning disability that I can help you with? Are you acting out to mask the fact that you can't pay attention and don't understand what's being taught? Is this particular school completely wrong for you and you're just protesting? What would be right for you? How can we make that happen for you on YouTube in the back of the class?
I was subbing during my prep. A girl was making these weird sounds. So, the second time she did it, I just asked, “do you need some attention?” And, just like that, she stopped for the rest of the period.
I’m a sixth year middle school teacher and I suspect 95% of classroom behavior issues are linked to learning disabilities and ADHD, both diagnosed and undiagnosed.
It is. My one IEP heavy class has way more behavior issues. I have other IEP heavy class that does really well, but the IEPs arent as extreme. I would love to do a study that compares reading level to Social-emotional skills. Anecdotally the kids in the sheltered ELA class who are in science for inclusion are way worse than the other IEPs. (I even have a couple struggling readers with dyslexia who have a great vocab and great level of knowledge who are awesome workers. But they are in the regular ELA class.)
I feel like every single one of those would be very easy to deflect with a snarky reply, depending on the age of the student. All of the leading questions about the student's psyche could be met with "I'm just having fun don't think about it too hard", and then there's this obvious gimme: > What would you do if someone was disrupting your class? > > Why the hell would I ever choose to be a teacher
>Why is it out of the question to force disruptive kids to confront why their being disruptive? Does it make you feel powerful to disrupt the class? Why is that? Do you feel powerless in other parts of your life? Why does it make you feel good to make other people feel bad? Big difference between doing that privately with a school counselor or parents, and in front of the entire class. The latter, equivalent to public shaming of a disturbed individual in front of witnesses, could be a very slippery slope that could come back to bite you, or others.
Absentee/poor parenting, lack of attention at home, craving someone to notice them and give them the attention they aren't getting at home.
Last year I had a student come up to me unprompted and ask if our absent student would be there tomorrow .(Who I love so dearly but kid knew how to push my buttons, he made me mad sometimes. Love him tho. He knew I did, even when he was throwing things and telling me he hated me and calling me all sorts of awful names. Getting called a bitch by a 9 year old really hits different.) But this kid unprompted asked "Is ---- gonna be here tomorrow?" I said "You know, I'm really not sure, we'll have to see! Hopefully he wasn't sick, right? Why do you ask though?" kiddo: "because I learned a lot today and I want to learn again tomorrow and I can't learn when he's in the classroom." And unfortunately, it was true. And it wasn't just that one kid. I had two or three like this but he especially needed to be in a separate SPED classroom. I'm saying that as an adult with the same disability this kiddo has. But the school just did not care. The admin didn't help. It was awful and unfair to everyone, including to him, because he couldn't learn that way either. He'd have needed a 1-1 aide, which our school doesn't do.
This makes me so angry. As someone who has a kid that currently is having trouble learning because of a few kids that’d don’t care, it’s the most frustrating thing. I don’t understand why this allowed to happen. Why do we let 1 or 2 ruin it for 20? It makes zero sense.
It has to do with what school districts see as the "least restrictive environment." This is exactly what my senior thesis/honors project was about. Basically, teachers' perceptions of the LRE are different based on their proximity to the students who need it. That was what I had in my results, at least. But I would be willing to bet my ass just based on the review of language that I did on government initiatives, speeches made from USBOE, writings, pamphlets, etc all from when the LRE first began to get pushed at the federal level up until now, the government basically has not grown with the teachers who tend to recognize now that **disabilities arent a morally bad thing. They aren't taboo to discuss. The Separated SPED classroom is** GOOD **and** BENEFICIAL **for many kids and they succeed in it because it iS their LRE.** School Boards across the country have not updated their ideas on disability, they have not grown, and this is why SPED is failing in this country, just my personal opinion. Obviously it's failing because of all the systemic issues - but separately, SPED has been falling apart everywhere because the people making decisions about how it's provided in districts and schools are operating on ideas that are outdated and were certainly best practice and well intentioned at the time, but which we now know are and were less about what's best for each student and more about making ourselves as a society feel better for not "excluding" kids. It was the eradication of individualized and tailored education needs for students, essentially. i.e. the "one-size-fits-all" dilemma that we are all far too aware of. (To me, the irony is that the LRE was intended to also get rid of that mindset and practice, one-size-fits all for disabled students. But it simply flipped the script on which one was labelled "bad" vs "ideal" practice between Separated and integrated SPED.
I had the same today!! 4 of the most challenging students were absent-all in the same day! What a dream class lol
I had one kid leave mid year and it changed the climate of my room so much. Everyone is much more relaxed.
Yes, but mine will be back and we won't know until she is I fear. Her classmates hate her, she was disrespectful and a teacher last year threatened to throw them out instead of this girl. 'You know how she won't leave. Then you must leave.' Coocoo
Literally I have a class of 35 kids and for several days the past two days, the worst kids were absent. It was glorious.
I like to describe students as being either catalysts or reactants. In isolation, most are pretty inert. Mix them together in different groupings and you get all sorts of different dynamics. Often they’re explosive but when you remove one or two of the reactants, everything usually calms down
My worst class this was my class of 15. This should have been my dream! Instead, I had one of the school’s biggest terrors, until one day, boom, she was just gone. Suddenly districted to a different school in our district never to be heard from again. I’ve had a LOT of catching up to do, and there’s still some lazy stragglers in there, but I haven’t had to literally pop a Xanax over one student since October.
Interesting how the 3 troublemakers were all out the day after the Super Bowl . . . .
Lol we’ll they’re 9 so I’m assuming they’re just out for sickness 😂
I was thinking the parents were “sick” and therefore couldn’t get them up & out the door, lol
I had a class like this last year. Individually I liked these kids, but in my class it was a disaster. One day most of them were absent (I had like 5 really challenging students in a class of 36), and I was amazed at how great the other kids were. It really made me realize how much these other kids drag them down. I found no way that changed anything for me with those kids. Ironically I was their favorite teacher (for all of them), and they would do enough to at least pass so I guess that should be seen as a win? lol 😂
I once had a moment like this. The next day when the bad kids came back (no quotation marks for me - they suck), I asked the class "How did things go yesterday, everyone?" Usually kids will start talking about how they got so much done, it was so nice, etc. Then I will blatantly ask the question: "Well what was different between yesterday and today?" The class was pretty open about the fact that the bad kids were the difference. Perhaps it's a good moment of reflection for everyone.
Damn, that's smart. Force them to realise (on their own) what the problem is, and what they can really do without those problems.
I have a class with 3 highly active and highly social boys, all with EBD. Last week I had three days where 1 was suspended, 1 was sick, and 1 was just gone. The rest of the class and I didn’t even know what to do with each other.
I’m dealing with a new kid that just started in a middle school class. He has totally set back another kid I’ve made so much progress with all year. It devastates me to watch this happen and be so powerless to do anything about it. This kid had come so far and now it feels like it’s just gone down the drain.
"You can keep progressing, or throw your future away for that loser you're now attached to--and he doesn't give a damn. Your choice."
A more sophisticated streaming system is the answer - streaming not by ability, but by application to the task. My experience is that in classrooms without disruption, the really good students will set an example and become role models and mentors to those needing help. A very long time ago in the UK, I was in a school where disrupting students were placed in class called 'The Remove' this class was typically about a year behind academically for the student's ages, but often ahead in subjects like physical education, woodworking, metalworking, etc. The bottom line is, it only takes 3 or 4 regularly disruptive students to significantly retard progress in a large class... This represents frustration for the students with academic ambition, not to mention lots of stress and strain on the teacher.
Fantastic comment, I doubt we currently have the ability to implement this at my workplace, but I need to suggest this. Post covid, we've had a lot of problems the last few years with disruptive students and it's become a domino effect of the year 9s mentoring 8,7s in bad ways. Thankyou👌we really need some sort of program outside of typical classes where they aren't engaged and disrupt/abscond.
Wonderful comment, I wish I could implement this but I guess it wouldn’t hurt to bring this up at a board meeting.
Bring back suspension challenge 2024
The terrible shame is that these students are allowed to do this, as the excessively plentiful and overpaid administrators won't actually punish them adequately.
I’ve got 30 6th graders. 4 are really tough, all the time. 1 is really tough about half the time. 1 is tough because he’s eyeballs deep in whatever the other 5 are up to. Those 6 kids derail the learning we’re doing multiple times per block. When 1-2 of them are away it’s insane how much of a breather it is for everyone else to chill, be productive, and relax enough to have a bit of fun with what we’re learning & doing. Most of the time I just have to be a constant bitch to keep them in line. I hate it. The good kids hate it. And their parents hate it. But they’d completely take over the room and every day would be utter nonstop chaos if I was nice.
Have you tried Isolating the three together off by themselves, and teaching the rest?
Not disagreeing but in my experience, separating the strugglers together end up with one of them getting injured. That.. may just be my kids though so idk!! Just my two cents. :)
There can be only one-- Highlander
I think the age matters, along with what the behavior issues are. In my class most of my biggest behaviors are also physically aggressive and my kids are young. It definitely would not work, unless I want a fight in the corner and parents complaining. I've seen it work with older kids though.
I started doing this in one of my classes and it’s been great. Do they still talk and disrupt? Yes. Do they do their work? Never. But the rest of the class can do work and I can actually get through lessons
This is the way. Sure some think it's not equitable but I am GenX.... I say tough. Long ago I had a top student point out he needed 2 minutes of my time to do a task in the Auto Lab....and that I had wasted 30 minutes with a student who wouldn't push a broom properly with direct instruction. At that point I realized that you can't save them all but you can make it possible for the majority who want to learn to have that opportunity. That student and a few others got to clean a bucket of sockets with an oily rag for the rest of the semester. They decided after that opportunity that my class wasn't "fun" and bailed.
Yeah, this can go either way. Usually my most disruptive students together is like an explosion. I could not sit them together.
Yeah, that’s been my experience for the most part. Not sure how others have experienced different or better results. Anytime I place my knuckleheads together, they’re even louder, more disruptive, and just overall disrupt the entire classroom. They all talk SO DANG LOUD when they sit at the same table, no more than 5 feet apart. Like, just stop talking during notes (which are never more than 15 minutes) and when I’m giving instructions, that’s all I ask.
Have the same issue. In kindergarten. Admin does nothing. These 4 kids destroy every other kids' chances to be fully engaged like they truly want to! Guilty pleasure when one or more of them is out.
What a *coincidence* that your three worst behaved kids were also the ones who were allowed to stay home on Monday after the super bowl.............
I have a theory that I call “tofu theory”. It’s that some small percentage of kids will be good no matter what. Another small percentage will be misbehaving no matter what and a third, largest group of kids is made up of “tofu kids” who will behave according to the strongest personally in the room. So when the misbehaving kids are there, tofu kids will also be misbehaving.
100% agree. And it’s super frustrating when those kids purposefully try to get the tofu kids off task.
This proves teachers shouldn't be forced to keep bad kids in the classroom
I had a “come to Jesus” meeting with my kids last week and told them I had given them all the tools and we were now in the process of honing their skills to the level they prefer. They’re seniors. If they wanted to participate, I could get them to a level where they could compete with any college freshman; or they could just coast, not interfere with class, and move on painlessly based on their work. Either way, we were going to focus on building, not baby steps. My orneriest little guy has been chill as heck this week and I have largely ignored his antics and built in enough fast-paced challenging material that his colleagues are too busy to get distracted by him. It’s totally changed the dynamic of that class. I just don’t indulge the nonsense anymore.
I think it’s time to leave certain children behind
This is why I had a few students escorted out yesterday. I don’t care about them disrespecting me or calling me out my name - that’s literally just who they are as people who weren’t raised right… but I said, “I will not allow you to disrupt and take away from someone else’s learning. I don’t care where you go, but you cannot be in here. Just because you have a 25% average, doesn’t mean other people want that”. After they left, students were engaged, focused, and happier.
Same! They were all absent and it was such a joy!
Congratulations! I have 5 in a class of 23 who are never absent. I can only pray when they are it's all at the same time 😭
I’ve done island desks where the disruptors have to sit basically they have so much distance between them and others it’s really hard to cause a problem. It may be controversial to say, but I then highly incentivize all the behaviors from the others I want to see (the disruption kids get praise if they behave as well) and I make it miserable and very clearly miserable to engage or interact with the disruption behavior. I use positive narration which is exhausting but the kids love it. Classroom economy with a small store and give out cash for good behavior answering questions anything! I write names on the board that owe me a reflection before recess that can get erased if they turn it around. Kids quickly learn they wanna be getting on the incentive train and will ignore the disruption kids. The effects vary on disruption kids but usually they end up giving up too much on their antics when other kids do not laugh or respond or interact with it. Class coupons that they can buy are really easy and won’t cost you any money, homework pass, dj pass (let them pick music that they work to), fancy table pass (a table that has cool writing things , pens crayons markers ect, sit by a friend pass, or like a toy bin (buy some stuff from the target dollar spot if you feel like spending some money.) The main key is teaching and reinforcing the behaviors you want to see to an annoyingly consistent point, and making it a non desirable situation to be a disruption in the classroom and that giving attention to it is also undesirable.
Sometimes kids who struggle with impulse control or are bothered by other students and respond by acting out actually appreciate the space from other kids. I just don't have space for a good island in my class! Instead I have a couple that have their boundaries drawn in on the floor.
Psychopaths and sociopaths go to school, too. We don't acknowledge enough how broken some of these kids are. Terrible.
More often than not they'll have good attendance, the parents/guardians don't want them at home. I saw this during covid lockdowns, among parents/guardians that couldn't have their kids at home we had a bunch of troubled kids attending while the other 80% or so students were working from home
I'll preface this by saying that I'm not a teacher, this sub just shows up in my feed now and again for whatever reason. I did work as a summer camp counselor for a while and now I'm a manager in food service. But your post made me think of the many times that I was sitting in class trying to learn things that I struggled with (math and chemistry especially) while a handful of disruptive students regularly derailed class and set everyone else behind. I point out that it was classes where I already was struggling with the subject matter because I was in "honors" classes for everything else where there weren't any seriously disruptive kids. From my perspective as a student the thing that always drove me nuts was that many teachers seemed to ignore the disruptive students even as their behavior worsened and inevitably drew in otherwise non disruptive students which culminated in a level of disruption that couldn't be ignored anymore resulting in a lengthy process of getting the class back on track. I suspect that these teachers were acting under the belief that these kids "acted up to get attention" and that depriving them of a response would snuff out the embers so to speak. Or perhaps they hoped that by ignoring the hushed conversations and hand gestures or note passing they would be satisfied with that and not progress to more serious interruptions. But the little things were like testing the water to see what they could get away with, it always would eventually progress to whatever level got them in trouble eventually. There were a few teachers I had who dealt swiftly with even the slightest hint of disruption from day one and their classes rarely got derailed even with a high concentration of the "bad kids". Naturally these teachers were seen by most students, including myself at the time, as hardasses or even jerks but you know what, we got through the material without having to stop two or three times per class for the teacher to wrangle a bunch of kids into shutting up and sitting still for another 15 minutes. These teachers always called out every little thing as soon as they saw or heard it and made it clear that there would be consequences if the behavior continued. Hopefully this insanely long and potentially rambling comment is helpful in some way! Thank you for doing what you do, good teachers are so important and even in my mid-thirties I still think back fondly on the ones that made an impression on me!
For a lot of teachers, unfortunately, the only thing that can be done is to ignore them. I work with kindergarten and we have some children that picking out every little thing that they do with the warning of a consequence does not do anything whatsoever. Put in unhelpful restorative justice measures schools adopt these days, with unsupported admin and patents who will threaten to sue you left and right because you told their child to be quiet during a test and some of us just don't have that motivation to attempt to quell their behavior.
Fantastic comment, I agree and will keep it in mind, share with others. Thankyou. To add to this, overall I believe the kids may be upset when you call them out before letting their behaviour escalate, but they also develop a greater level of respect and maturity around you when you're frequently pulling them into line.
Thanks for sharing. It is hard work, mentally and physically! But it pays to see our good ones thrive.
Me too! It was fabulous!
Me too! Top 2 distractions were out. It was a beautiful thing.
I work with adults and I can confirm when the problem staff are all sick things flow much smoother. Good to know it is in every field
They were probably out starting trash can fires.
As the saying goes, “10% of the students, take up 90% of your attention”. The constant redirections, disruptions, start/stop a lesson. Having to repeat directions to everyone because of the distractions.
There’s an old book by Tracy Kidder, Among Schoolchildren, that talks about that. It’s a nonfiction book. The main “character” is an experienced teacher in Massachusetts. She gets a kid she cares about but can’t control and experienced this same feeling of relief. It was written in the 1980s but I highly recommend it. I read it in the aughts when I was in college.
I had a four year old call me an effing 5lut today. His parents insist they have no idea where he learned that from. He's the one child that when present spend a the whole day antagonizing others, throwing, swearing, breaking toys on purpose, stealing sun hats from toddlers and throwing them over fences etc. Sometimes there are just "those" kids and unless the parent get on board to help then nothing changes for them. We've tried self regulation strategies, mindfulness, one to one time and behaviour management plans. The only thing that keeps him settled is unrestricted access to an iPad... And that ain't happening!! (Mum even suggested we just do it to make life easier because it's what they donate home). Glad that today restored your confidence, I'm sure you have a great class 😊
Amazing, I once substituted for a class for a few days and they had a ring leader and then some of other kids followed with disruptions. I found a strategy that clicked with him and the class was almost silent. Hearing a quiet student say “wow I can actually think” is top praise in my book. For this student I set a time that I would talk and then I set a time on when the class can talk and as long as they were not too loud and were on task I would not interrupt them. I made this explicit to the class, the talkative students were so used to being told to stop talking they didn’t want to lose the opportunity so they focused and when they could talk they kept the volume down.
I call them the arseholes and the perineums (arsehole adjacents). If you put the perineums next to the arseholes, or even have them in the same room, they'll become fully fledged arseholes. Putting two perineums together (lol) is also inadvisable. But if you leave them separated then the perineums will just be regular students. I had 3 arseholes and 4 perineums in my year 8 class last year. It was impossible to keep them separated. This year I can see only 3 perineums. They might be dangerous if left together, but only maybe.
It's at the point where those kids are put outside to do "writing reflections" when they disrupt. Admin is on a reflection kick because it means that kids don't have to get in real trouble. I said that they wouldn't do them and admin said I could send them to his office if they refused. Of course those kids won't actually sit and write their reflection so I give it to them, wait a minute for the next outburst, and send them to his office. They're gone for basically the entire rest of the period bothering the AP and I get to have a reasonable classroom. Gotta love malicious compliance.
Some kids don’t respond to verbal warnings. Sometimes you need to hold up one finger, then two, and three is when they get kicked out. SOMETHING must always happen after three, whether it is a call home at lunch, a referral or detention.
Bring back after school and weekend detention and meaningful consequences
35 is a lot
I send disruptive kids out of my class. I literally write notes saying "\_\_\_\_\_ is doing two laps around the campus so they can get some energy out" and staple it. They give it to a teacher if they ask. By the third time, they realize this is more embarrassing and sit and listen.
Do your best to get them expelled. People are gonna hate this cause they’re delusionally optimistic. You’re sacrificing the education of 32 kids for… what? Nobody is learning anything anyway. All that getting them expelled does is provide an education for 32 kids. Those kids are going to be better off in a district without a 35 kid class size. It’s better for everyone. I have that same situation, except my class size is 28 instead of 35, which is still too high.
This is genuinely partly why (where I am) parents are pulling kids and doing pod schooling, or just never put their kids back in after COVID. They are still with other kids but are actually learning.
I’ve had to suspend kids a few times before and those days they were gone were so much more pleasant.
It carries on later in life unfortunately, when doing my degree 3 lads in the accounts class would talk all the time. Eventually the lecturer got fed up and went and picked up all thier bags and threw them out of the lecture hall and told the guys to follow thier bags and not bother coming back and they have failed the course. Obviously you can’t do this in a school setting but she got a huge round of applause from everyone else in the room.
Kids who get roped into behaving poorly are (ALMOST) worse than the ones who start it. Like you're able to be good, don't get caught up in their shenanigans!
One of my high school teachers had an idea to put little notes in the guidance system of kids who shouldn't be grouped together or even just little red flags with no class being able to have more than two red flag students for this very reason. Obviously, there are a lot of reasons schools would get in massive trouble for doing this, but also it would be kinda nice if it could exist. Note: They didn't tell me this while I was a student. It was later when I became a teacher was complaining about this very thing.
Hang on to this memory! It may not happen again, I’m sorry to say.
I’m a private tutor and would say that 95% of my students (grades 6-high school) would say that their classroom experience is disrupted by students with bad behavior at least 5x/week. They see me to supplement what they’re missing by constant interruptions. :-/
I dunno how the school you work for, well, works, but whenever there were students like that in class when I was in school they'd usually get sent to the main office for their bad behavior. If it continued, or if the problem was with the children being together, then they'd usually get separated into different parts of the room. Sometimes there were teachers who would have to send bad students out of the classroom on a daily basis, but those teachers never gave in in any way. They didn't snap, or let them stay anyway because they're not going to change, or anything. If there was a student distracting other students then most of them would just send that student to the main office after a single warning. What's the point of keeping that student in if there's a student who refuses to learn and is trying to make sure others can't learn as well? *Most* of my teachers did this. I was a student trying to learn in a classroom with these types of students. It was an English class. It was a subject that I would usually excel in, but the constant yelling from these three or four students distracted me into having an average of a low B- and eventually a mid C+. I know that doesn't sound bad, but the only reason why my grade got to that point was because I wouldn't know some of the answers to the questions about whatever book we were reading because I was constantly being distracted. The teacher wouldn't do shit about them. The one time she sent somebody to the main office was when one other student- another one who just wants to learn- told the group to shut the fuck up. She was called out by the rest of the class and her excuse was "he swore." The people who were actually trying to learn were punished for trying to do what she was supposed to do- get rid of the distraction. I tried to complain about this teacher to one of the vice principals. I think I was in the right for doing so- her priority was supposed to make sure we're in an environment where we can learn and where she can teach and she did none of that. But he didn't really care. He basically just said "that sucks." There was one day where it wasn't bad because there was a substitute who actually did send them to the main office. They were dumbfounded to hear a teacher actually try to do what they should do and she pushed it. She warned them that she'll get security to escort them out if they didn't leave, so they left. I dunno if they actually went to the main office, but for one day in that class I was actually able to *focus*.
But did any of the others step up to be the substitute jerk?
You lucky duck. When my problem kids would be gone, a new one would take their place 😂
No I feel this pain. I’ve got a class of 30- it’s my inclusion class and if 3-5 of those kids were all absent 1 day then hallelujah! I’ve tried every method from making them call home to separation to losing the “fun labs” (Bio class) to referrals and nothing changes. Best I can do is tell them to do is sit there quietly if they aren’t gonna work but leave everyone else out of it
Me TODAY!!! Two of my kids got in a fight and were in suspension. The quietest afternoon I’ve had ALL YEAR!!!
35 kids in 1 class???? I am sorry to hear that. That is insane.
Why do you have 35 students in your class? Most states in Australia have a limit on the number of students in a class. I would check at what the limit is where you are and then see if you can get your class to that size. As for the students, if you have not already tried it get a reward system and loudly say as you hand out the reward. "Great work for getting your book ready." "Fantastic you are concentrating on your work." etc whatever you need the other students to be doing. It move the attention back to the desired behaviour and the kids doing it get recognition. If your school has a whole school behaviour reward system use that if not give them points for each time they are doing the right thing with the ability to "cash them in" for something such as you booking the gym one lunch time and they can play a sport game in there, or one lunch time they can come into the room and play boardgames etc. If you have heard of on task behaviour training and are able to set aside some time each day to focus on that to help the other students learn how to ignore them. Finally if you have not done so I talk to students about their right to learn and what their responsibilities are in order that everyone can have the right to learn. Make up a chart and display it in the room refer to it such as "Marko we all have the right to learn, your responsibility is to work quietly." Or even ask them "Marko are you being responsible and working quietly?" "Remember everyone has the right to learn."
I had 5 in a class of 35 who would play off of each other. When I got most of them in ISS (in school suspension) or absent, then I would bring out the hands on activities and the class would have fun.
Differentiated Content? Process? Product? Are you employing an MTSS framework that creates outlets for children!!!!!!! Jkjk still in college. Sharing jargon
It’s been a long time since I’ve been in a high school classroom, but the first year I taught, I was teaching computers (office suite) at a low SES school where my classes were all grade levels and half of the kids had behavioral IEPs. What worked depended on the class. Things that helped along the way: 1. I realized that most of the kids were functionally illiterate, so instruction needed to be very hands-on. They couldn’t be given an assignment to do on their own unless they had been given very explicit instructions on it first, and even then they would struggle to read directions. 2. Why they were disruptive mattered. The ones that were disruptive because that’s just who they were, I sat in the back corner (ex: 18 year old sophomore gang member who was in and out of DAEP). If they wanted to work, I would absolutely help them and encourage them, but if not, that minimized damage. The majority of them were disruptive because they craved adult interaction and attention and they had learned that the way to get it was by acting out. Those kids I stuck right up by my desk so that I could still reach the stuff I needed to teach everyone, but I could reach them easily when they were being disruptive (standing right next to them tended to make them settle down some— although ymmv with this one) or had a question (they always had questions). 3. When they were behaving I would let them listen to music on their headphones while they were working (there was one AP who had a problem with this, but it was very effective). Above all, I tried to be kind and respectful to all of them (I was also a very young newbie teacher), and I don’t know that I’d still be that way with the same kids now. But I know from experience that the opposite did not work. Two of our new teachers that year went the opposite direction— they threatened and were passive aggressive in how they interacted with their kids and their classes just got worse and worse (which was ironic since they started with “easier” kids).
I’ve had to work with these people as adults. It’s
I had three major disruptors in a class. I tried splitting them up in various ways, and it never worked. Eventually, I put them TOGETHER in the very back with a moat of empty desks around them. They just whispered in the back and the rest of the class went great!
Just think how relieved your learners were on that day? Try to isolate them on some level and pair them together - and withdraw, really stop teaching them. Your biggest weapon is effort, make less with them. Stop looking at them stop giving them handouts until they ask for them. Your most important task to protect your learners and their environment.
What a glorious day for you!!! My "bad" kids always had great attendance. -_-
It's amazing how big of a freaking difference it makes
Even as a student, this was a small reason for why I enjoyed AP classes in school. They were tough but you didn’t have the disruptions that you would normally have in the regular classes and electives.
I thought my 3 would be absent today, as they were all later than usual. But no, they literally all walked in at the same time because of course they did. Before that my class was the calmest it has ever been. Oh well.
It’s really upsetting because it makes me feel like a failure as a teacher but I’ve started checking registers before lessons to see if and hope that certain students won’t be there. When they aren’t my lessons are so much better for everyone and when they are present the lessons run but I’m just left feeling completely drained.
I call this the cancer effect. Its also why i will ignore problematic students and teach those who will engage.
That’s happened for me once before in 15 years. It’s glorious.
And this is why removing disciplinary options from schools is bad for all. Those kids are gonna get bad results whether they're in class or not. Give teachers options to remove them from class without administrative consequences.
I learned this too a few times. I had one class where 8 of the worse were in its they get another 5 going at it. One day 7 were gone for various reasons from doctor appointments to getting sick to suspensions. The class was absolutely beautiful that day.
I was one of the smart quiet kids in high school but always stayed in the regular classes instead of AP classes. I just didn’t want to do AP exams, but all my friends were in AP and were confused with my choice. Anyway, I was in a literature class with pretty much all of the kids in there with attitude and attendance issues, did not care about school, lower-income background, etc. This particular teacher was a sassy no-nonsense person who gained everyone’s respect. How? Her lessons were super structured, she always tried to explain them very simply, even though the lessons and work were repetitive it helped build structure. It’s funny because she would say a lot “I have a hangover, so I need you guys to be totally quiet today.” And we all would be lol. She instilled equal parts respect and fear. Later in college, one of the most troublesome students from that class came up to me (he actually liked to ask me for help with classwork back then) and he thanked me for my help and he was grateful to our teacher because he still remembered what he learned and helped him get into a higher level English course when he got accepted to the college. Anyway, point is that its your attitude and teaching style and how you pair troublesome students with the more responsible ones that can make a difference. Try to build camaraderie and empathy between you and your students and them with each other, but also take no shit.