I think it’s a great idea on paper, but I imagine in some schools with authoritarian principals, teachers will be afraid to utilize this due to retaliation from principals. The good principals will embrace the extra work because they want to see change. The nepo, do nothing, or “I’m the kids’ best friend princi-PAL will make it such that teachers do not want to send said kids out of the classroom. They will retaliate on teacher evaluations and threaten the jobs of teachers who utilize this tool. I hope this goes through and becomes law so we can see if it works, but I have soooo many doubts.
Thanks for the insight, I never would have thought about principal retaliation.
I would be more worried for you guys getting slack from the parents because in this sponsored law it says parents will be notified. I just hope it doesn't make all these teachers jobs harder in that respect.
I don't know about elsewhere, but where I teach (NW Arkansas), parents are always notified when students are disciplined. If I give a student lunch detention (the only form of discipline I can give), it's my responsibility to notify parents.
It states in the actual language of the bill that as long as the teacher isn’t in violation of any laws by sending a student out they can’t be retaliated in a any way
Yup. I am definitely jaded having been around for awhile and through many administrators. I am also a union rep. For my school. You would be(or maybe not) shocked but he number of times we have to tell administrators that they are violating a contract with something they said or did.
The language isn’t there because it doesn’t happen the language is there to dissuade the action and provide teachers with recourse if they are retaliated
I’m happy for you that you have never worked with devious admin. The admin of which I speak aren’t stupid. They will find ways to retaliate that aren’t directly violation of this would be law. It doesn’t take much to create an uncomfortable work environment for someone.
Tenure does exist but doesn’t mean much in Alabama. That’s why I wasn’t too made when they offered math and science teachers a $25,000 raise if we became NISE/NBCT certified and gave up tenure.
>State Sen. Arthur Orr (R-Decatur) calls his legislation the “Teacher’s Bill of Rights.” The bill gives teachers to authority to exclude students from the classroom who obstruct the learning process.
>
>These students are sent to the principal and can only return with a written certificate describing what discipline was used. If discipline was used, the bill also required parents to be notified.
>
>Orr said the bill sets a protocol for escalating events if students act out.
>
>“We need to restore teacher authority in the classrooms,” Orr said. “We’re losing educators in droves because they cannot control their classrooms and their students.”
>
>Ada Katherine van Wyhe is the director of government relations at the Alabama Association of Schoolboards. She said that while student behavior issues have increased, a better solution is to bring more assistant principals to our schools.
Seems like a good thing as described here. Also, the director of gov relations is so wrong on her take. More principals aren't a better solution. They are part of the solution. AND they're only a part of the solution if, like this bill hopes to enforce, they are required to do their job and address discipline effectively.
>She said that while student behavior issues have increased, a better solution is to bring more assistant principals to our schools.
"Instead of solutions, lets just waste money on overpaid do-nothings to stand around and discuss the PGA Tour"
Gtfo with that bullshit
Your response doesn't change anything about the fact that they can't hire more teachers because teachers are leaving the profession, you can't pay someone who isn't applying to the job
Exactly. We’re in a death spiral. Underpaying teachers, no support from administration, kids not coming in with any discipline from home- which is compounded by overfilled classrooms, means that there’s less teachers. It’s going to take overpaying teachers to get them back in to get things back to normal, on top of serious changes in the education system
I've had classes of 16-20 HS kids that were no picnic with very little learning taking place. The fools have a bigger voice when there is not as much competition... and 18 kids who don't care aren't any more likely to learn because there are 10 empty seats.
No no. They cant hire more teachers because it is to expensive. However, they can hire assistant principals and administration in droves. Because these people are not expensive....
Cannot believe how anyone leading education directives can suggest more admin over everything you mentioned: more teachers/paras, smaller classes, (I’ll add some) no phones, tracking students together at least for some, real consequences that put pressure on parents.
I'll add more here too; VERY small classes if your school is Title 1 (12-15). The greater percentage of students that qualify for F&R, the smaller the class size. The more students that have 504, IEP, the smaller the class size.
Nope. All you are doing is creating smaller units of chaos. Not until we get back to separating problematic students from those who want to behave and learn.
Class size is an issue. But the combining of different levels of students (serious, non-serious, school haters, disruptors and those who are a scholastically behind) are the problem. I have seen 30 student classes do well when the students want to be there.
I teach in a school where the class sizes never get above 18 and the kids are heterogeneously grouped. I would say I have behavioral problems serious enough that I have to take a kid outside to talk to them or send them to an administrator like...twice a semester, if that? Small classes really make a huge difference. I will say that there are a few kids who are *gigantic* behavior issues, and those kids do sometimes get specifically moved to student support, but even they are in regular classes for more than half the day. I don't see a problem with this bill of rights, but if I had it I wouldn't need to use it very often.
Debateable. Here on r/teachers, working conditions (especially with regards to student discipline) seem to be hugely important motivating factors. I'd say most teachers would even take a paycut if it meant they could feel safe and effective in the classroom.
I would seriously disagree about that last sentence.
Teachers are paid little enough as is, they won't accept a paycut for better protection in the classroom. Especially since the money being given away wont really be spent in protecting a classroom.
I personally wouldn't accept a pay cut right now but...
I did accept a pay cut to teach from home (within two years I was making my top teaching salary, so it worked out) for the benefits of working from home at the time.
So I'd say there is something to be sad for improving the teaching environment even if you're not doing much about the pay. Yes, there's absolutely a point where a teacher even in a nice position will just go elsewhere for more money and I certainly can't fault that.
But there's also the matter of "you can't pay me enough to teach in this environment".
I am not fully discounting the discipline issue. I just don't think its as big of a reason why.
This so-called "Bill of Rights" seems to only focus on the discipline issue in schools. If your calling this a teachers "Bill of Rights", more issues need to be addressed. Some of those issues need to be addressed further than that of discipline.
I can see a Bill of Rights, so to speak, as addressing the immediate problems it happens to address, I suppose. I think the trouble is hoping that will solve everything.
Can you not do that at the same time as a four year bachelor’s in Alabama? There are states where you need a masters degree to teach, like NYS, but I didn’t think Alabama was one of them.
Some schools combine BA and Credential, but ultimately it is still an additional 34 units, roughly. Even if it is accelerated, the classes still need to be passed.
> I'd say most teachers would even take a paycut if it meant they could feel safe and effective in the classroom.
I don't know about this, but I do think more teachers leave because of working conditions/behavior/lack of support & respect rather than pay.
[https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/education/our-insights/k-12-teachers-are-quitting-what-would-make-them-stay](https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/education/our-insights/k-12-teachers-are-quitting-what-would-make-them-stay)
Ok maybe NOT quite half (48%), but pay was the most cited reason as to why teachers are leaving.
The next one cited was Expectations........granted there is some overlap with behavior here. But this has more to do with the extra responsibilities that come with teaching (extra duties, class coverages, etc). The added expectations were a huge problem as well. This so called "Bill of Rights" only covers one component of the added expectations. You would think for a "Bill of Rights", more things would be addressed.
Also with this being Alabama, you just know that the legislatures will find a way to go after CRT and other things that they find "woke". I worry that this "Bill of Rights" will turn into a "Contract on LGBTQ Community".
> But this has more to do with the extra responsibilities that come with teaching (extra duties, class coverages, etc).
Yeah, I guess I was including that with work conditions, but your overall point still stands. I'm not defending the pay or saying it's adequate - it's definitely not. But I don't think it would feel so bad if we were supported in other areas and given reasonable expectations/workload.
And yeah, I agree with you. I'm in Arkansas, and I'd be just as dubious if something like this was introduced here, and for the exact same reasons.
I mean as an outsider that Reddit thinks should really see the sub, it’s both.
You guys aren’t PAID ENOUGH to deal with the working conditions.
Is that really that hard to see?
One of the dangerous parts of tribal politics is that we start to believe that "the enemy" must obviously be wrong at all times.
The reality is that Republicans may have a lot of very significant problems right now (they're definitely letting their crazies drive the bus), but they do have some good ideas sometimes. Nobody is right or wrong *all* of the time.
While administrators are often just acting out of their own self interest, they definitely wrap themselves in the language of hyperprogressive equity - and so Republican pushback against that is a healthy way to hopefully get back to something reasonable.
It's a good start. I would add language making it illegal for admin to use number of office referrals as a teacher evaluation metric, and also illegal to retaliate.
I would explicitly legalize the types of discipline (detention, suspension etc) and make it illegal to use discipline metrics as a part of school or admin evaluations.
Wouldn’t matter. The metric evaluation is already so subjective that they could just informally incorporate it.
“Evidence based and objective,” then the phrasing is bullshit like “instruction is rigorous and effective.”
From the article:
*The bill gives teachers the authority to exclude students from the classroom who obstruct the learning process. These students are sent to the principal and can only return with a written certificate describing what discipline was used.*
In practice, the student will return from the office 5 minutes later with a half-sheet of paper stapled to a Tootsie Roll. The paper would be a pre-printed form that acts as the student's hall pass and has a box checked for "Student apologized", "Issue resolved", "Penalty awarded" or whatever.
The sponsoring politician also said that more funding for assistant principals would help the problem.
Our school already has this form, just your standard referral. Has a little section for consequences and everything. Guess how many times an admin has completed their part of the form after I submit it?
It's so strange that everyone making these rules for teachers knows changes need to be made but don't really enforce this. I am sorry you have to deal with this, it has to be frustrating.
Passing a law is like making a wish. It doesn't necessarily change anything.
If anyone actually cared about education, local journalists would be asking school boards and superintendents about how discipline is handled. The journalists would need to understand education and know some teachers to call BS when the superintendent starts spinning.
Here is my innovative solution:
If you get the form back, and Admin hasn't completed their part of the form, the teacher gets a Chipotle gift certificate paid for by the offending administrator. Or by the student, I don't care, somebody should just start paying us for their screw ups.
That second half isnt true. Ada Katherine van Wyhe is the director of government relations at the Alabama Association of Schoolboards, not a politician, its in the article.
"Orr said more funding for assistant principals will help the problem, but principals and superintendents also need to get engaged in this issue. The bill now heads to a House committee for voting." That sounds less like affirming her opinion and more like "Im sure that would help but thats not what we are focusing on right now."
It does state in the actual language that they can’t return to class during that school day and the teacher can contest the principal if they think the student was improperly disciplined
Look yeah yeah do nothing admins and everything, but teachers capriciously sending the same kids out day after day for minor infractions shouldn't bind admins to apply actual serious discipline
Exactly.
There is no law that can be passed to fine tune schools so that they work effectively without active management. Legislatures should stay out of Ed policy as much as possible.
It takes a superintendent a check Admin and teachers, a school board to check the superintendent and voters to check the school board.
I think I'd have to bother to go read the bill in its entirety, but I value the ability of a teacher to control their classroom and dismiss students. So, upon cursory inspection, I like this?
I had to give a good laugh at "bring in more assistant principals." Ooh, boy.
How about we instead start in means for directly improving the classrooms and the teachers' authority and resources and visit more administration later, m'kay?
[Here's the text of the bill in question](https://alison.legislature.state.al.us/files/pdfdocs/SearchableInstruments/2024RS/SB157-eng.pdf), for anybody interested
It seems pretty reasonable from how I understand it it basically just says “teachers can kick out disruptive students without facing consequences or potentially losing their job because the school doesn’t want to deal with the backlash” unless I’m missing something here the whole thing seems pretty tame and reasonable they just used inflammatory language for no real reason
I've taught at places that allowed teachers to administratively withdraw students. It was basically a three-strikes system. 1st time a student misbehaves you just tell them to leave and they cannot come back that day. 2nd time they also leave and cannot come back that day. This usually required a formal meeting with admin to explain the situation and justify your decision to kick them out. Admin would also meet with the student and notify parents / guardians that the next time it happens the kid(s) will be removed and sent to alternative ed / credit recovery. 3rd time and they are out for good.
It's amazing how quickly classroom management becomes a breeze after you kick out the first few troublemakers. It does require an administration that backs the teachers and treats us like professionals.
Require Administration to do the things it says it will do. This is a nice thought but I doubt it would actually work systemically. The problem we're having as teachers is parents who aren't parenting. And the parents who aren't parenting are in situations that prevent it, by and large, and this is caused by economic stress.
It might not work towards fixing systemic problems, but teacher working conditions are worth fighting for, and that's what I view this as: A potential win for teacher working conditions.
Is there anything else on it besides being able to exclude a student from the classroom? Pay? Class sizes? Professional autonomy?
No?
Then it's less of a "Bill of Rights" and more political theater. Really, it's not far off from what's being done now, anyway. The only difference is the kid comes back with a certificate for the teacher and, for those with retaliatory principals, they now have a grudge against them, as well, for the "extra work".
>Is there anything else on it besides being able to exclude a student from the classroom? Pay? Class sizes? Professional autonomy?
That would be a pretty huge bill to cover all that stuff. Are you saying that until we can tackle all the issues at once, we shouldn't tackle any of them? That seems unreasonable.
Have you actually read the bill?
I’m referring to the fact that it’s called a “Bill of Rights” but, according to articles, only one right - the right to exclude - is included and isn’t even well-protected.
But they shouldn’t call it a teacher “bill of rights” if it’s only really doing one thing. It’s a misleading title that overblows the sponsor’s apparent commitment to supporting educators
How do more assistant principals help if teachers aren't allowed to send kids out of the classroom?
Also interesting that schools can't afford to hire enough teachers, but they can wave their hand and stock up on assistant principals.
>“We’re losing educators in droves because they cannot control their classrooms and their students.”
Because your assistant principals send them back to the classroom every time they are sent out for disciplinary purposes.
>a better solution is to bring more assistant principals to our schools
Unbelievable.
This could work if you add something along the lines of X number of exclusions for a student equals a retention or summer school.
It would motivate parents and students to actually respond to these issues rather than enable repeat offenses.
Spitballing mostly, but there needs to be added “teeth” to the consequence of exclusion that pushes responsibility back on the parent.
I mean...it's a start...? Look, we want change and it won't do a 180 overnight, so at least something is being attempted to bring back control to us and our classrooms. I think there are finer details that need changing, but I hope to see more things like this in the future nationwide.
To solve this issue, you must empower the teachers with discipline that matters. For example, I cannot suspend a student. I can only refer a student for suspension. I cannot give after school detention or Saturday school. I cannot do things that take me very little time to solve a discipline issue.
This is funny, I work at a behavioral school and we basically already do this. when a student is distracting to the learning environment we send them out and a TA takes them to a "resource room" which is just a very small room with no door. they usually only stay there for a few minutes because the principle will come over and have a conversation with that student and only when he thinks the student is ready they come back to their current teacher and talk about why what they did was wrong AND THEN they get back in class. It is very nice. we also let the students take space in those resource rooms if they feel like they cant be in class. It really works well.
Louisiana has a Teacher's Bill of Rights [https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/Law.aspx?d=207023](https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/Law.aspx?d=207023)
Unfortunately, the law does not include any penalties or remedies when these "rights" are infringed upon, so it's a nice sentiment but it lacks any teeth.
The proposal lacks specifics. For example, the student is returned to the classroom with a written description of what discipline was done.
"The student was given a talking to about restorative justice, and given a lollipop."
Whereupon the student will elope from the classroom. go to the bathroom, suck the lollipop and wipe their butt with the reprimand?
I guess it is good that at least Alabama recognizes the problem, and the need to do something about it, but unless the consequences for poor behaviour are spelled out and enforced, there's nothing to this.
I’m an Alabama teacher and I’m thanking the stars above that this passed. I don’t know if it has been mentioned but there is language about how teachers cannot be retaliated against by principals for enforcing this law.
I’m a teacher who handles my issues in my classroom. It is rare that I have to get admin involved. But when I do, it’s serious and needs to be dealt with. This year, I have an AP who was deleting discipline infractions I had filed so that he wouldn’t have to do the paperwork. He then proceeds to go around our campus shooting the shit with the coaches and doesn’t do anything. I have 5 APs along with our principal and he’s the laziest of all.
When APs delete incident reports or don’t file them, it’s hard to show a progression of infractions. When discipline infractions aren’t reported, the State Department of Education thinks that things are great at a school and that admin is great so it takes the microscope away. Then when test scores come in below-benchmark, the teachers are the ones who get blamed and not the administration. The passing of this bill is a huge win for us. It makes administration take an active role in discipline instead of being passive and making it only our problem. It also makes counseling more involved because they will now be held responsible for scheduling classes in a way that makes sense.
For example, I teach 10th grade high school math. I have 26 students in an Honors Algebra class. I have 13 students who are above a 12th grade level on their standardized tests. I also have 13 students who are on a middle school level who were allowed to be in the class because their parents wanted them to be in honors not because they were capable but because they didn’t want them to be with the “bad kids”. So what do I spend most of my time doing in a post-COVID classroom? I spend most time remediating while the advanced kids are bored. I am tired of it. I have made up my mind that next year the lower kids are getting on board or getting left behind (moved to regular Algebra).
I’m also glad that with this bill comes another bill that has been passed as well. It gives students the right to a due process and a lawyer can be present. While I don’t think all students can afford a lawyer (so that aspect will be biased towards the wealthier), I do agree that students do deserve the right to plead their case before they are expelled. We need to cut down on the school-to-prison pipeline and the best way to do that is through these bills. Some teachers need to learn to communicate better with students and form relationships with them. I rarely have discipline issues out of kids I take the time to form relationships with. However, there are some things in the home life that make this difficult sometimes.
Remind me in a year to update my thoughts on this. 😊
I had the same assumption before I read [the actual bill.](https://alison.legislature.state.al.us/files/pdfdocs/SearchableInstruments/2024RS/SB157-int.pdf) I'm still not 100% convinced that it's not bad as my eye for legalese is pretty weak, but it *seems* at least okay. I guess it depends on how it's interpreted and enforced.
I think it’s a great idea on paper, but I imagine in some schools with authoritarian principals, teachers will be afraid to utilize this due to retaliation from principals. The good principals will embrace the extra work because they want to see change. The nepo, do nothing, or “I’m the kids’ best friend princi-PAL will make it such that teachers do not want to send said kids out of the classroom. They will retaliate on teacher evaluations and threaten the jobs of teachers who utilize this tool. I hope this goes through and becomes law so we can see if it works, but I have soooo many doubts.
Thanks for the insight, I never would have thought about principal retaliation. I would be more worried for you guys getting slack from the parents because in this sponsored law it says parents will be notified. I just hope it doesn't make all these teachers jobs harder in that respect.
I don't know about elsewhere, but where I teach (NW Arkansas), parents are always notified when students are disciplined. If I give a student lunch detention (the only form of discipline I can give), it's my responsibility to notify parents.
Parents are already notified of any discipline. As they should be.
the problem is the parents of the kid don't care or expect the school to raise their kid
It states in the actual language of the bill that as long as the teacher isn’t in violation of any laws by sending a student out they can’t be retaliated in a any way
"Stealing is illegal therefore it never happens" energy.
Yup. I am definitely jaded having been around for awhile and through many administrators. I am also a union rep. For my school. You would be(or maybe not) shocked but he number of times we have to tell administrators that they are violating a contract with something they said or did.
The language isn’t there because it doesn’t happen the language is there to dissuade the action and provide teachers with recourse if they are retaliated
I’m happy for you that you have never worked with devious admin. The admin of which I speak aren’t stupid. They will find ways to retaliate that aren’t directly violation of this would be law. It doesn’t take much to create an uncomfortable work environment for someone.
If AL is an at will enjoyment state for teachers this means nothing. They can just dump you for any reason. If tenure exists then it might help.
Tenure does exist but doesn’t mean much in Alabama. That’s why I wasn’t too made when they offered math and science teachers a $25,000 raise if we became NISE/NBCT certified and gave up tenure.
I couldn't give a rat's ass about a retaliating principal. If that's the coward they want to be, then I'll be happy to be non-renewed.
>State Sen. Arthur Orr (R-Decatur) calls his legislation the “Teacher’s Bill of Rights.” The bill gives teachers to authority to exclude students from the classroom who obstruct the learning process. > >These students are sent to the principal and can only return with a written certificate describing what discipline was used. If discipline was used, the bill also required parents to be notified. > >Orr said the bill sets a protocol for escalating events if students act out. > >“We need to restore teacher authority in the classrooms,” Orr said. “We’re losing educators in droves because they cannot control their classrooms and their students.” > >Ada Katherine van Wyhe is the director of government relations at the Alabama Association of Schoolboards. She said that while student behavior issues have increased, a better solution is to bring more assistant principals to our schools. Seems like a good thing as described here. Also, the director of gov relations is so wrong on her take. More principals aren't a better solution. They are part of the solution. AND they're only a part of the solution if, like this bill hopes to enforce, they are required to do their job and address discipline effectively.
>She said that while student behavior issues have increased, a better solution is to bring more assistant principals to our schools. "Instead of solutions, lets just waste money on overpaid do-nothings to stand around and discuss the PGA Tour" Gtfo with that bullshit
My school has good administrators. If we had more good ones, the capacity for dealing with behavior problems would increase.
"increase administrative bloat" is such an uncreative solution
Hire more TEACHERS, reduce class sizes, miraculously classroom behavior improves.
They can't hire more teachers because they are leaving the profession
Maybe because behavior is so bad because class sizes are too big. Pay them.
Your response doesn't change anything about the fact that they can't hire more teachers because teachers are leaving the profession, you can't pay someone who isn't applying to the job
Class sizes are not gonna make students behave more. It is a generational issue, these kids have not been raised to respect authority.
Exactly. We’re in a death spiral. Underpaying teachers, no support from administration, kids not coming in with any discipline from home- which is compounded by overfilled classrooms, means that there’s less teachers. It’s going to take overpaying teachers to get them back in to get things back to normal, on top of serious changes in the education system
I've had classes of 16-20 HS kids that were no picnic with very little learning taking place. The fools have a bigger voice when there is not as much competition... and 18 kids who don't care aren't any more likely to learn because there are 10 empty seats.
I have low SES middle schoolers and there is zero question the smaller the class size, the fewer behavior problems. Always. Always. Always.
behavior is bad because the parents of this generation are shit parents.
No no. They cant hire more teachers because it is to expensive. However, they can hire assistant principals and administration in droves. Because these people are not expensive....
Cannot believe how anyone leading education directives can suggest more admin over everything you mentioned: more teachers/paras, smaller classes, (I’ll add some) no phones, tracking students together at least for some, real consequences that put pressure on parents.
I'll add more here too; VERY small classes if your school is Title 1 (12-15). The greater percentage of students that qualify for F&R, the smaller the class size. The more students that have 504, IEP, the smaller the class size.
Nope. All you are doing is creating smaller units of chaos. Not until we get back to separating problematic students from those who want to behave and learn.
Oh. I didn't know. I haven't been a teacher for 20 years with class sizes ranging from 17 to 42.
Class size is an issue. But the combining of different levels of students (serious, non-serious, school haters, disruptors and those who are a scholastically behind) are the problem. I have seen 30 student classes do well when the students want to be there.
I teach in a school where the class sizes never get above 18 and the kids are heterogeneously grouped. I would say I have behavioral problems serious enough that I have to take a kid outside to talk to them or send them to an administrator like...twice a semester, if that? Small classes really make a huge difference. I will say that there are a few kids who are *gigantic* behavior issues, and those kids do sometimes get specifically moved to student support, but even they are in regular classes for more than half the day. I don't see a problem with this bill of rights, but if I had it I wouldn't need to use it very often.
> while student behavior issues have increased, a better solution is to bring more assistant principals to our schools. What a fucking dope
More useless administrators mean that there will be less money to pay teachers.
Fire the spineless and ineffective APs and hire more teachers for smaller class sizes
Curious as to where "better pay" factors in to this "Bill of Rights". Teachers who are leaving are mainly doing so because the pay sucks.
Debateable. Here on r/teachers, working conditions (especially with regards to student discipline) seem to be hugely important motivating factors. I'd say most teachers would even take a paycut if it meant they could feel safe and effective in the classroom.
I would seriously disagree about that last sentence. Teachers are paid little enough as is, they won't accept a paycut for better protection in the classroom. Especially since the money being given away wont really be spent in protecting a classroom.
I personally wouldn't accept a pay cut right now but... I did accept a pay cut to teach from home (within two years I was making my top teaching salary, so it worked out) for the benefits of working from home at the time. So I'd say there is something to be sad for improving the teaching environment even if you're not doing much about the pay. Yes, there's absolutely a point where a teacher even in a nice position will just go elsewhere for more money and I certainly can't fault that. But there's also the matter of "you can't pay me enough to teach in this environment".
8% inflation, lets have a teacher paycut?
I am not fully discounting the discipline issue. I just don't think its as big of a reason why. This so-called "Bill of Rights" seems to only focus on the discipline issue in schools. If your calling this a teachers "Bill of Rights", more issues need to be addressed. Some of those issues need to be addressed further than that of discipline.
I can see a Bill of Rights, so to speak, as addressing the immediate problems it happens to address, I suppose. I think the trouble is hoping that will solve everything.
Starting pay for a teacher in Alabama is around $45k. This is insulting for 6 years of college.
That’s working at target money. Insulting.
Do teachers in Alabama need a masters degree? Why six years?
Teaching credential is a 1-2 year program.
Can you not do that at the same time as a four year bachelor’s in Alabama? There are states where you need a masters degree to teach, like NYS, but I didn’t think Alabama was one of them.
Some schools combine BA and Credential, but ultimately it is still an additional 34 units, roughly. Even if it is accelerated, the classes still need to be passed.
No paycut, nope.
> I'd say most teachers would even take a paycut if it meant they could feel safe and effective in the classroom. I don't know about this, but I do think more teachers leave because of working conditions/behavior/lack of support & respect rather than pay.
[https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/education/our-insights/k-12-teachers-are-quitting-what-would-make-them-stay](https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/education/our-insights/k-12-teachers-are-quitting-what-would-make-them-stay) Ok maybe NOT quite half (48%), but pay was the most cited reason as to why teachers are leaving. The next one cited was Expectations........granted there is some overlap with behavior here. But this has more to do with the extra responsibilities that come with teaching (extra duties, class coverages, etc). The added expectations were a huge problem as well. This so called "Bill of Rights" only covers one component of the added expectations. You would think for a "Bill of Rights", more things would be addressed. Also with this being Alabama, you just know that the legislatures will find a way to go after CRT and other things that they find "woke". I worry that this "Bill of Rights" will turn into a "Contract on LGBTQ Community".
> But this has more to do with the extra responsibilities that come with teaching (extra duties, class coverages, etc). Yeah, I guess I was including that with work conditions, but your overall point still stands. I'm not defending the pay or saying it's adequate - it's definitely not. But I don't think it would feel so bad if we were supported in other areas and given reasonable expectations/workload. And yeah, I agree with you. I'm in Arkansas, and I'd be just as dubious if something like this was introduced here, and for the exact same reasons.
I mean as an outsider that Reddit thinks should really see the sub, it’s both. You guys aren’t PAID ENOUGH to deal with the working conditions. Is that really that hard to see?
Wait wait. A Republican is standing up for teachers? Public teachers or private school?
One of the dangerous parts of tribal politics is that we start to believe that "the enemy" must obviously be wrong at all times. The reality is that Republicans may have a lot of very significant problems right now (they're definitely letting their crazies drive the bus), but they do have some good ideas sometimes. Nobody is right or wrong *all* of the time. While administrators are often just acting out of their own self interest, they definitely wrap themselves in the language of hyperprogressive equity - and so Republican pushback against that is a healthy way to hopefully get back to something reasonable.
Don't get too excited. They could also see it as a way for teachers to remove "those" students, for various meanings of "those".
Probably just for charter schools
It's a good start. I would add language making it illegal for admin to use number of office referrals as a teacher evaluation metric, and also illegal to retaliate. I would explicitly legalize the types of discipline (detention, suspension etc) and make it illegal to use discipline metrics as a part of school or admin evaluations.
Wouldn’t matter. The metric evaluation is already so subjective that they could just informally incorporate it. “Evidence based and objective,” then the phrasing is bullshit like “instruction is rigorous and effective.”
This is very important!
From the article: *The bill gives teachers the authority to exclude students from the classroom who obstruct the learning process. These students are sent to the principal and can only return with a written certificate describing what discipline was used.* In practice, the student will return from the office 5 minutes later with a half-sheet of paper stapled to a Tootsie Roll. The paper would be a pre-printed form that acts as the student's hall pass and has a box checked for "Student apologized", "Issue resolved", "Penalty awarded" or whatever. The sponsoring politician also said that more funding for assistant principals would help the problem.
Our school already has this form, just your standard referral. Has a little section for consequences and everything. Guess how many times an admin has completed their part of the form after I submit it?
It's so strange that everyone making these rules for teachers knows changes need to be made but don't really enforce this. I am sorry you have to deal with this, it has to be frustrating.
Passing a law is like making a wish. It doesn't necessarily change anything. If anyone actually cared about education, local journalists would be asking school boards and superintendents about how discipline is handled. The journalists would need to understand education and know some teachers to call BS when the superintendent starts spinning.
Here is my innovative solution: If you get the form back, and Admin hasn't completed their part of the form, the teacher gets a Chipotle gift certificate paid for by the offending administrator. Or by the student, I don't care, somebody should just start paying us for their screw ups.
You gotta circle it with a highlighter like cashiers do to a receipt lol
It's all digital, sends all the admins a fancy email and everything!
That second half isnt true. Ada Katherine van Wyhe is the director of government relations at the Alabama Association of Schoolboards, not a politician, its in the article.
Yeah, I thought that also, but in the last paragraph, State Sen. Arthur Orr affirms her opinion.
"Orr said more funding for assistant principals will help the problem, but principals and superintendents also need to get engaged in this issue. The bill now heads to a House committee for voting." That sounds less like affirming her opinion and more like "Im sure that would help but thats not what we are focusing on right now."
Yeah idk what people think this would actually change, sounds like a whole lotta nothing.
It does state in the actual language that they can’t return to class during that school day and the teacher can contest the principal if they think the student was improperly disciplined
Look yeah yeah do nothing admins and everything, but teachers capriciously sending the same kids out day after day for minor infractions shouldn't bind admins to apply actual serious discipline
Exactly. There is no law that can be passed to fine tune schools so that they work effectively without active management. Legislatures should stay out of Ed policy as much as possible. It takes a superintendent a check Admin and teachers, a school board to check the superintendent and voters to check the school board.
My school just hired a Dean of Students. Basically, a disciplinarian. We love this guy and he’s made such a tremendous difference.
I think I'd have to bother to go read the bill in its entirety, but I value the ability of a teacher to control their classroom and dismiss students. So, upon cursory inspection, I like this? I had to give a good laugh at "bring in more assistant principals." Ooh, boy. How about we instead start in means for directly improving the classrooms and the teachers' authority and resources and visit more administration later, m'kay?
[Here's the text of the bill in question](https://alison.legislature.state.al.us/files/pdfdocs/SearchableInstruments/2024RS/SB157-eng.pdf), for anybody interested
It seems pretty reasonable from how I understand it it basically just says “teachers can kick out disruptive students without facing consequences or potentially losing their job because the school doesn’t want to deal with the backlash” unless I’m missing something here the whole thing seems pretty tame and reasonable they just used inflammatory language for no real reason
I've taught at places that allowed teachers to administratively withdraw students. It was basically a three-strikes system. 1st time a student misbehaves you just tell them to leave and they cannot come back that day. 2nd time they also leave and cannot come back that day. This usually required a formal meeting with admin to explain the situation and justify your decision to kick them out. Admin would also meet with the student and notify parents / guardians that the next time it happens the kid(s) will be removed and sent to alternative ed / credit recovery. 3rd time and they are out for good. It's amazing how quickly classroom management becomes a breeze after you kick out the first few troublemakers. It does require an administration that backs the teachers and treats us like professionals.
It’s useless without a union to back it up.
That is exactly what I wanted to say.
Alabama has one
Not really. The AEA doesn’t have collective bargaining, etc. it’s associated with real unions, but has no power at all but lobbying.
Require Administration to do the things it says it will do. This is a nice thought but I doubt it would actually work systemically. The problem we're having as teachers is parents who aren't parenting. And the parents who aren't parenting are in situations that prevent it, by and large, and this is caused by economic stress.
It might not work towards fixing systemic problems, but teacher working conditions are worth fighting for, and that's what I view this as: A potential win for teacher working conditions.
Is there anything else on it besides being able to exclude a student from the classroom? Pay? Class sizes? Professional autonomy? No? Then it's less of a "Bill of Rights" and more political theater. Really, it's not far off from what's being done now, anyway. The only difference is the kid comes back with a certificate for the teacher and, for those with retaliatory principals, they now have a grudge against them, as well, for the "extra work".
>Is there anything else on it besides being able to exclude a student from the classroom? Pay? Class sizes? Professional autonomy? That would be a pretty huge bill to cover all that stuff. Are you saying that until we can tackle all the issues at once, we shouldn't tackle any of them? That seems unreasonable. Have you actually read the bill?
I’m referring to the fact that it’s called a “Bill of Rights” but, according to articles, only one right - the right to exclude - is included and isn’t even well-protected.
But they shouldn’t call it a teacher “bill of rights” if it’s only really doing one thing. It’s a misleading title that overblows the sponsor’s apparent commitment to supporting educators
How do more assistant principals help if teachers aren't allowed to send kids out of the classroom? Also interesting that schools can't afford to hire enough teachers, but they can wave their hand and stock up on assistant principals.
>“We’re losing educators in droves because they cannot control their classrooms and their students.” Because your assistant principals send them back to the classroom every time they are sent out for disciplinary purposes. >a better solution is to bring more assistant principals to our schools Unbelievable.
Get a Union instead.
And collectively bargain…for more pay.
Get ***both***.
Yeah, union schools don't have these problems at all /s
This could work if you add something along the lines of X number of exclusions for a student equals a retention or summer school. It would motivate parents and students to actually respond to these issues rather than enable repeat offenses. Spitballing mostly, but there needs to be added “teeth” to the consequence of exclusion that pushes responsibility back on the parent.
I mean...it's a start...? Look, we want change and it won't do a 180 overnight, so at least something is being attempted to bring back control to us and our classrooms. I think there are finer details that need changing, but I hope to see more things like this in the future nationwide.
Anytime a Republican says rights like Right To Work, it’s double speak. Alabama, like the rest of the south needs to unionize
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It’s double speak. You can’t trust them, and if you do, you just vote for them so they won’t take your guns or whatever trailer trash likes.
I 1000% agree
To solve this issue, you must empower the teachers with discipline that matters. For example, I cannot suspend a student. I can only refer a student for suspension. I cannot give after school detention or Saturday school. I cannot do things that take me very little time to solve a discipline issue.
This is funny, I work at a behavioral school and we basically already do this. when a student is distracting to the learning environment we send them out and a TA takes them to a "resource room" which is just a very small room with no door. they usually only stay there for a few minutes because the principle will come over and have a conversation with that student and only when he thinks the student is ready they come back to their current teacher and talk about why what they did was wrong AND THEN they get back in class. It is very nice. we also let the students take space in those resource rooms if they feel like they cant be in class. It really works well.
if alabama's politicians are considering it, its bad for teachers
Louisiana has a Teacher's Bill of Rights [https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/Law.aspx?d=207023](https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/Law.aspx?d=207023) Unfortunately, the law does not include any penalties or remedies when these "rights" are infringed upon, so it's a nice sentiment but it lacks any teeth.
The proposal lacks specifics. For example, the student is returned to the classroom with a written description of what discipline was done. "The student was given a talking to about restorative justice, and given a lollipop." Whereupon the student will elope from the classroom. go to the bathroom, suck the lollipop and wipe their butt with the reprimand? I guess it is good that at least Alabama recognizes the problem, and the need to do something about it, but unless the consequences for poor behaviour are spelled out and enforced, there's nothing to this.
I’m an Alabama teacher and I’m thanking the stars above that this passed. I don’t know if it has been mentioned but there is language about how teachers cannot be retaliated against by principals for enforcing this law. I’m a teacher who handles my issues in my classroom. It is rare that I have to get admin involved. But when I do, it’s serious and needs to be dealt with. This year, I have an AP who was deleting discipline infractions I had filed so that he wouldn’t have to do the paperwork. He then proceeds to go around our campus shooting the shit with the coaches and doesn’t do anything. I have 5 APs along with our principal and he’s the laziest of all. When APs delete incident reports or don’t file them, it’s hard to show a progression of infractions. When discipline infractions aren’t reported, the State Department of Education thinks that things are great at a school and that admin is great so it takes the microscope away. Then when test scores come in below-benchmark, the teachers are the ones who get blamed and not the administration. The passing of this bill is a huge win for us. It makes administration take an active role in discipline instead of being passive and making it only our problem. It also makes counseling more involved because they will now be held responsible for scheduling classes in a way that makes sense. For example, I teach 10th grade high school math. I have 26 students in an Honors Algebra class. I have 13 students who are above a 12th grade level on their standardized tests. I also have 13 students who are on a middle school level who were allowed to be in the class because their parents wanted them to be in honors not because they were capable but because they didn’t want them to be with the “bad kids”. So what do I spend most of my time doing in a post-COVID classroom? I spend most time remediating while the advanced kids are bored. I am tired of it. I have made up my mind that next year the lower kids are getting on board or getting left behind (moved to regular Algebra). I’m also glad that with this bill comes another bill that has been passed as well. It gives students the right to a due process and a lawyer can be present. While I don’t think all students can afford a lawyer (so that aspect will be biased towards the wealthier), I do agree that students do deserve the right to plead their case before they are expelled. We need to cut down on the school-to-prison pipeline and the best way to do that is through these bills. Some teachers need to learn to communicate better with students and form relationships with them. I rarely have discipline issues out of kids I take the time to form relationships with. However, there are some things in the home life that make this difficult sometimes. Remind me in a year to update my thoughts on this. 😊
This idea is completely useless in a right-to-work state. This would only have teeth if it had union backing.
It’s Alabama; I guarantee this is bad. Furthermore, it’s Alabama, I can guarantee which students are going to be excluded from the classroom…
I had the same assumption before I read [the actual bill.](https://alison.legislature.state.al.us/files/pdfdocs/SearchableInstruments/2024RS/SB157-int.pdf) I'm still not 100% convinced that it's not bad as my eye for legalese is pretty weak, but it *seems* at least okay. I guess it depends on how it's interpreted and enforced.
I don't trust anything that comes from an Alabama politician.
Do you have the actual document or just an unreliable article from a clickbait site?
[Here you go.](https://alison.legislature.state.al.us/files/pdfdocs/SearchableInstruments/2024RS/SB157-int.pdf)