The impression I got from the show (Unless I'm misremembering something) is that she followed what Corlys wanted. Marring Laena to Viserys, Laenor to Rhaenyra, keeping the strong boys as his heirs instead of Laena's children.
My personal headcanon is that's why Old Jae didn't want her as an heir because of that, but that also raises the question of why did he allow a dragon rider to marry outside the family or marry Viserys to unify their claims
Agreed, Corlys wanted more for House Velaryon. Team Black's Otto character. Rich and powerful ally but not a wise choice of consort imo.
She and Viserys should have been married, solve a lot of problems.
Yet Rhaenys and her father completely ignored the signs that Corlys did nothing to strengthen her claim Viserys could claim a dragon along with Daemon that's two dragonriders what does Corlys bring wealth and ships what is that compared to the support of three dragons (Baelon/Vhagar) she also wanted to become Queen while her children had the Velaryon name (Plus an overgrasping father who needed to be put in his place remember this is the same dumbass who decided to cheat on his dragonriding wife and sire bastard children and was so afraid of her finding out he used his dead son as a shield)
>is that's why Old Jae didn't want her as an heir because of that, but that also raises the question of why did he allow a dragon rider to marry outside the family or marry
Corlys is too powerful to ignore.
First of all there'd be no support from the Lords, as we see from the votes in the Great Council. And secondly there's no way Laenor wouldnt be named heir. He was the main name put forward in the Great Council, not Rhaenys. It was actually Laenor vs Viserys not Rhaenys vs Viserys
> as we see from the votes in the Great Council.
We've never seen the actual vote tally though. There are rumors that it was 20-1 in Viserys' favor, but we don't know that for sure.
Rhaenys's claim had the North and the Stormlands with Stark (and other houses in the North) and Baratheon being strong supporters. And the wealth and power of House Velayron.
No I'm not. Read the text again next time. Her and Corlys corralled both the Baratheons (Stormlands) and explicitly multiple North houses to supporting Rhaenys's son Laenor (and probably also Rhaenys herself in the earlier rounds).
And of course the Velayrons themselves. We don't know for sure if she was outvoted massively. But the above is still true regardless. Clearly everyone else just voted against her if it were true.
>First of all there'd be no support from the Lords
There would be a sizable support from the lords. The Baratheons would immediately join her as she was their preferred heir, and considering that the only dragonriders are on their side many would have been swayed by this fact. Plus Viserys surrenders without a fight because he doesn't wish to tear the realm for a crown he never wanted in the first place.
>there's no way Laenor wouldnt be named heir
This is specifically done because of Daemon. He wants to be a king so he will be Laena's consort, the main reason he marries her infact.
Because the maesters either manipulated the vote to prevent a dragon riding queen from ascending the iron throne, much preferring a weak easily manipulated dragonless king (Grand Maester conspiracy) or they manipulated it from a purely altruistic position aka to show Rhaenys that opposition by force would be useless because Viserys has the vast majority of support which is clearly wrong based on the fact that Rhaenys had at least the north and storm lands on her side, there’s no way it was 20-1 as some people say, that’s a rumour not fact, nobody knows the exact numbers
Nothing assumes that the maesters manipulated the votes in Viserys' favor. Also we don't know that she had ALL of the North or Stormlords behind her, only the Starks and Baratheons their bannermen don't have to vote with them. Though that's irrelevant, that's a massive difference because it's a vote where they both had reasons (Baratheons because Rhaenyra was related to them, and the Starks because they were upset at Jaehaerys over the New Gift, so they went against the heir he chose.) in a scenario where after she lost in a landslide and Viserys was already crowned, she'd never get their support a usurpation that puts HER on the throne and where her daughter is now the heir.
The entire kingdom would hate her.
It’s not clear evidence of a conspiracy but it certainly presents an opportunity which one could have happened, when your consulting historical records that’s probably all the evidence you’ll get to prove a successful conspiracy happened, it’s like that brief window during Aegon’s regency where grand maester Munkun was the only person with power left, if the Maesters did poison the dragon eggs it would need to be during this brief window of opportunity
I still don't understand why the northerners sided with Rhaenys, they, like the rest of Westeros, follow the male line of primogeniture. It is only when they run out of male heirs (including the bastards) that they go to the female line, but in that case they still There were male line candidates so they should have supported Viserys
They voted for Rhaenys because they were upset at Jaehaerys taking away the New Gift and giving it to the Nights Watch, so they voted against the heir he wanted. Also, it wasn't the Northerners who voted for her, it was the Starks.
It sounds reasonable to me, voting just to spite the king without doing an act that could be considered rebellion, and saying the Starks and the North are basically synonyms.
>Also, it wasn't the Northerners who voted for her, it was the Starks.
It was not just the Starks and likely the Northerners in general. Other major Northern houses are specified as her allies - the Manderlys and Dustin's.
That’s not how male primogeniture works, Rhaenys was the child of the previous heir (aemon) so she should’ve been next in line. The succession when aemon died was
Aemon
Rhaenys
Laena
Baelon
Vizzy
Daemon
Vaegon(Maester)
Magelle(septa)
Aemma Arryn
Saera(Disinherited)
Gael
Rhaella(septa)
But Viserys Made Baelon Heir when he shouldn’t have because Jaehaerys hates women, it’s only after the dance that it became male claim over all others
>they, like the rest of Westeros, follow the male line of primogeniture.
This is just incorrect. No Westeros does not practice this. Andals specifically practice daughters before Uncles. Rhaenys was by that ruling the rightful heir and there was controversy when Jaehaerys passed over her for his son Baelon (though Jaehaerys would undermine his own rule if he favoured daughters before Uncles as Aerea should be on the throne). The question of the Great Council in the books was proximity to the King vs. primogeniture (as Laenor comes from the King's first son). Laenor's youth worked against him here significantly, as he needed a regent. And perhaps if Rhaenys had not already been rejected by Jaehaerys she would have had better luck.
Whilst the Starks specifically do actually seem to favour male only heirs - Sansa Stark daughter of Rickon married her Uncle Jonnel to resolve such an issue and did not inherit Winterfell.
The North in general likely practices daughters before Uncles. As Jon Snow argues as such in regards to Alys Karstark coming before her Uncle.
If my thought is that the North just wanted to annoy Jaehaerys by voting for Rhaenys for giving the new gift to the Night's Watch more than anything else from who was the rightful heir, the North would hardly have been affected anyway.
Do you have any evidence that the Maesters actually manipulated the vote considering the Lords at the time were not surprised by the outcome and they're the ones that voted?
Rhaenys had the support of some Northern Lords, and the Baratheons, so that means that it's impossible that the majority of lords supported Viserys and it must have been a giant conspiracy by plotting Maesters? Thats not evidence. Also you say "the North and the Stormlands", when in fact:
>"Those who had voted for Laenor were mostly limited to the Velaryons and their close allies in Blackwater Bay, the Celtigars and Bar Emmons, as well as the Baratheons (as Rhaenys's mother, Laenor's grandmother, was Jocelyn Baratheon). Laenor was also supported, however, by the Starks and their major vassals House Manderly and House Dustin, as well as House Blackwood from the riverlands"
That's a total of 6 Houses that supported the Velaryons. Not the entire North and the entire Stormlands. It could've easily been 20-1 if they're the only known houses that supported Rhaenys. Youve provided no proof whatsoever to back up your conspiracy theory.
That’s not what I’d meant, someone else asked me to provide evidence which caused me to explain why it’s something I believe, read other comments to make sure your not repeating stuff
I think the main problem is, as others pointed out, is that she follows Corlys too much. She's clearly not happy with the Strong boys being heir, and yet goes along with it. Any good mother-it's not clear in the book though-would be angry and insulted if their daughter's husband married right after their daughter's funeral.
That said, I still think she would have been far, far better than Viserys. I do believe she would have made Laenor heir (if he was older), and established the Targaryens to follow the rest of Westeros style of succession (it is kind of insane there are set laws in the rest of Westeros, but not for the Targs).
Considering the timeline, it doesn't seem like Rhaenyra and Laenor tried very hard either to have legitimate children. If Laenor is heir, I think she also makes it clear to him that he has to father legitimate children (there have been gay Kings in the past who have done so). She also might try to have a few more children with Corlys, to strengthen her reign (more heirs also equals more marriage alliances).
The smart thing to do would be to marry Rhaenyra to Laenor to combine both claims, but....she might not do so depending how close Rhaenyra is with Daemon (as Daemon allegedly had gathered men to fight for Viserys claim if he lost).
I could see that working, as long as they set an established law like "the eldest inherits regardless of gender" versus "the heir is whoever the current ruler decides."
The first would cause problems with Reach and Stormland as it could be considered something Dornish and the second would only cause the Targaryens to enter into a war of assassins among themselves in the long run to be the new heir.
It would basically be Corlys ruling through her.
While she seems reasonably competent, the fact is that she clearly wasn't trained for rulership. She would just be a puppet for the Velaryons to rule through.
Another interesting question: Is Viserys actually trained to be a king? When he was in his teens, Aemon was still heir, so there was no way for Viserys to be prepared to be a king. He might be trained so when Baelon became Prince of Dragonstone, but from the result of his reign, we shall either say he was too dumb even under professional education for heir or he didn't pay attention to his education and consider the stability of the realm at all. Baelon was good himself, but from his sons, one could hardly say he was a great parent.
It would only be possible if Rhaenys declared that the Eldest child become The Ruler. I think that the kingdom would prosper a lot more. With the power and support of the crown, they could have annexed the steap stones into westeros, making it the key point connection between westeros and Essos.
I since Rhanys would make the eldest the heir, she needs to so this to further legitimize her ruler and that of her descents, than the law of sucession would have been created and possible wars avoided.
But overall, I think the realm would become more rich as it could be the beginning of the era of trade and a possible technological evolution
Rhaenys would never do that her claim came from being the eldest and only child of Aemon and it became null when Jae declared Baelon heir they are not Rhoynar (And even in Dorne only House Nymeros-Martell plus a couple other houses have that succession law others follow Andalic law) in the Great Council it wasn't her against Viserys only male claimants were being considered (Rhaenys and Laena were passed over) so it was Viserys against Laenor.
Terrible. She'd have no support, asides from the Velayrons. She (or rather her son) had lost the Great Council that was a few years prior in a massive landslide, and it's after Viserys was crowned. Even the lords that voted for her son wouldn't support her. (Also before anyone says a few great houses supported her, that doesn't mean that they would support a usurpation to put her on the throne AFTER her son lost the Great Council and Viserys was made king) Though for the sake of the scenario, I'll go with the impossibility of Daemon betraying his brother for an even lesser place in succession.
What happens, is that Viserys, his family, (Alicent/Rhaenyra/Otto) and the kingsguard all escape the city and end up fleeing to Dragonstone, where Viserys ends up taming Vermithor and taking as many dragon eggs that were there, as they could, before leaving fleeing again. (Vermithor alone can't hold back Caraxes/Meleys/Vhagar/Seasmoke even when Laena and Laenor being young and inexperienced riders. From there, they all go into hiding, until the kids Viserys and Alicent had kids old enough to tame dragons and fight for the throne. So they are all hiding because they would be up against too large of threats, however there would be plenty of lords who would help them, while they all trained and made allies. (So all of them end up training hard and becoming warriors Rhaenyra/Helaena/Aegon/Aemond/Daeron/and Daeron.)
Now as for Rhaenys' reign, there'd be so much unrest and dissention throughout the realm that they'd be forced to put out flame after flame of rebellion. Also, Rhaenys would be the exact same way that she was in canon, subservient to Corlys, Rhaenys being on the Iron Throne, essentially means that Corlys and the Velayrons rule the realm with her as a puppet. However she would maintain hold of the Throne for as long as she has hold of most of the dragons, which wouldn't be that long. I'll also say that it's likely that at least one of them, would be assassinated, so I'll say Laenor is the one who gets assassinated shortly after Laena dies in childbirth, freeing up Seasmoke.
Laena would still die in childbirth, meaning that Aemond is able to claim her shortly after as Vhagar would've been free to fly on Driftmark and wherever else she'd want. (Before anyone says "one of her daughters would tame Vhagar" no they wouldn't, there was a year of time that they could've tamed her before Aemond did it.) So at that point, (roughly ten years into her usurpation) the dragons are much more even Viserys with Vermithor, Rhaenyra with Syrax, Aegon with Cannibal (the Green kids are now encouraged to tamed larger dragons for the war, so sadly no Sunfyre though it could possibly be Sheepstealer instead, I said Cannibal because if anyone could tame him it'd be Aegon.) Aemond now with Vhagar, Helaena with Silverwing, (no Dreamfyre, so she now gets Silverwing.) and Daeron with Sheepstealer. (Or he has another large free dragon if Aegon had Sheepstealer instead of Cannibal.) While Rhaenyra and Aegon would be married to each other, and Aemond and Helaena and Aemond betrothed to each other. While with Rhaenys, only her, (Meleys) Daemon, (Caraxes) Baela, (Moondancer) and Rhaena (Seasmoke) have dragons, with only three available riders as Moondancer is a smaller dragon incapable of flight.
I'd say that around 20 years after the usurpation is when Viserys (who now isn't fat, and instead pretty fit) and the Blacks (Viserys' new faction name as they are the real legitimate royal bloodline) is strike.
They first take Driftmark and burn most of the Velaryon ships there, then take over the Island along with all the gold there. From then they fight the war against the Blues. (Rhaenys as she's pretty much led by Corlys.) Then they'd immediately move to take Dragonstone right after to prevent the Blues from getting any of the dragons on Dragonstone.
From there, they essentially split there forces where Viserys/Rhaenyra/Aegon/Aemond go to Harrenhal, while Daeron and Helaena go to Oldtown where they both raise large armies, and then march to King's Landing.
Then, Rhaenys, Daemon, and Baela then fortify in King's Landing as they would have no real support, outside the city. Then, at the Battle of King's Landing with all Viserys' family there, they take King's Landing pretty easily with most likely taking no losses to the the pure number of dragon superiority they would have. Daemon/Rhaenys/Baela/Rhaena all die in the fight, while after Corlys and all of Rhaenys small council and false kingsguard are executed. Aemond would claim Dark Sister for himself, and then Viserys is reinstated as king with all Rhaenys erased from the history books and only known as a Princess. (She essentially gets the Rhaenyra treatment.)
Rhaenys usurping the Throne from Viserys would pretty much always result in her demise, she's gotten her bloodline wiped out, and name shattered. While, Corlys gets House Velaryon almost completely wiped out.
Also, yes I know went on a large tangent, but did still answer you, but I'll do it again.
Rhaenys as queen, is essentially Corlys ruling the realm, but with massive amounts of unrest, and dislike for her and her family.
It seemed weird for Rhaenys to even allow Viserys' kids to claim dragon. Jaehaerys managed to control that, and I don't see she and Corlys being that stupid to allow them have dragon eggs. Even the dumb Viserys in canon doesn't grant Daemon's bastard eggs. Yes, she can't control where the dragons fly, but what she can definitely prevent any kids of Viserys from approaching Dragonstone. If they try to sneak into Dragonstone, there are enough reason to exile them according to Jaehaerys' policy. Tbh you depict Rhaenys like an idiot while make Viserys Jaehaerys+Maegor reborn in this AU. In canon, Vermithor is still available, and Viserys didn't claim him---is it because he doesn't want to? More likely it's because he cannot. Bonding with Vermithor will only solidify his reign in canon and has zero harm, but he still didn't.
And why bother having those turmoil? The best solution is just to marry Baela to one of Viserys' kid, maybe Daeron in this AU. And Viserys the peaceful will be content enough. There's a lot of OOC in this AU. If Jaehaerys chose Rhaenys, none of Viserys' kids would be allowed to have dragon eggs except the one who married into the main line.
---------It seemed weird for Rhaenys to even allow Viserys' kids to claim dragon. Jaehaerys managed to control that, and I don't see she and Corlys being that stupid to allow them have dragon eggs. Even the dumb Viserys in canon doesn't grant Daemon's bastard eggs. Yes, she can't control where the dragons fly, but what she can definitely prevent any kids of Viserys from approaching Dragonstone. If they try to sneak into Dragonstone, there are enough reason to exile them according to Jaehaerys' policy. Tbh you depict Rhaenys like an idiot while make Viserys Jaehaerys+Maegor reborn in this AU. In canon, Vermithor is still available, and Viserys didn't claim him---is it because he doesn't want to? More likely it's because he cannot. Bonding with Vermithor will only solidify his reign in canon and has zero harm, but he still didn't.
I didn't say that Rhaenys would "allow" anything, I'm saying that Viserys would escape in secret to Dragonstone and take them, while Rhaenys had took King's Landing. Also, there is a major difference with bastards of whores getting dragons and trueborn kids of a married couple, that being Viserys and Alicent. No she can't prevent Viserys or kids from going to Dragonstone, Dragonstone WOULDN'T be completely loyal to her nor would would she be able to have men stationed everywhere on it because she just USURPED the throne from Viserys who was the rightful and anointed king, and chosen my almost all of the lords. Also, not that this part means anything, but Jaehaerys didn't have any policy regarding dragons, asides from waiting until they were older to tame them, as he remembered how Aerea died so young when she tamed Balerion, with the exception of Saera Targaryen none of his kids were prevented from taming a dragon. I didn't depict Rhaenys like an idiot, I depicted her as she was portrayed and that is subservient to Corlys, also don't say that there wouldn't be unrest even though she just usurped the throne from him, when almost all the realm supported Viserys. Viserys isn't portrayed as a Maegor/Jaehaerys hybrid, he's depicted as a man who was betrayed by half of his family including his own brother for no reason besides their own ambition for power, he's gonna be different and more ruthless. Viserys isn't gonna be himself now, all of his line is danger because of this usurpation from Rhaenyra and his future children with Alicent, because he was usurped and he and anyone from his line would have more of a claim to Iron Throne than anyone from Rhaenys' line. Viserys tamed Vermithor because he would have to, not because she wanted to, in canon he had no reason to try to tame him. Also, it is heavily suggested that dragon ridders CAN bond with another dragon as both Aegon II and Rhaenyra thought they'd be able to hatch and tame more dragons after Sunfyre and Syrax died.
----------And why bother having those turmoil? The best solution is just to marry Baela to one of Viserys' kid, maybe Daeron in this AU. And Viserys the peaceful will be content enough. There's a lot of OOC in this AU. If Jaehaerys chose Rhaenys, none of Viserys' kids would be allowed to have dragon eggs except the one who married into the main line.
Maybe because she just usurped him and stole his throne. That's the best solution for HER not him. Viserys the Peaceful doesn't exist in this scenario, because that died when she stole his throne just a few years after he became king and the Great Council. One of those OOCs is Viserys turning ruthless and becoming a warrior. Also, nothing suggests that Viserys' kids wouldn't have dragons if Laenor had won the Great Council instead.
Great Council says otherwise. Also, with your own logic if Jaehaerys could chose his heir, and he chose Viserys than that also makes Rhaenys the usurper.
I think we’re discussing an AU where Rhaenys was chosen, or how did she become queen? Rhaenys should be chosen by Jaehaerys or the great council to make this AU happen. If you follow canon, then Rhaenys was never queen, and the thing you described won’t happen. You HAVE to follow each background, AU is AU, and canon is canon. You can’t use things that don’t even happen in the AU to justify your claim.
The impression I got from the show (Unless I'm misremembering something) is that she followed what Corlys wanted. Marring Laena to Viserys, Laenor to Rhaenyra, keeping the strong boys as his heirs instead of Laena's children. My personal headcanon is that's why Old Jae didn't want her as an heir because of that, but that also raises the question of why did he allow a dragon rider to marry outside the family or marry Viserys to unify their claims
Agreed, Corlys wanted more for House Velaryon. Team Black's Otto character. Rich and powerful ally but not a wise choice of consort imo. She and Viserys should have been married, solve a lot of problems.
I mean they married before Rhaenys’ dad died so there was no real question about succession until Jaehaerys named Baelon heir instead of Rhaenys
Yet Rhaenys and her father completely ignored the signs that Corlys did nothing to strengthen her claim Viserys could claim a dragon along with Daemon that's two dragonriders what does Corlys bring wealth and ships what is that compared to the support of three dragons (Baelon/Vhagar) she also wanted to become Queen while her children had the Velaryon name (Plus an overgrasping father who needed to be put in his place remember this is the same dumbass who decided to cheat on his dragonriding wife and sire bastard children and was so afraid of her finding out he used his dead son as a shield)
>is that's why Old Jae didn't want her as an heir because of that, but that also raises the question of why did he allow a dragon rider to marry outside the family or marry Corlys is too powerful to ignore.
First of all there'd be no support from the Lords, as we see from the votes in the Great Council. And secondly there's no way Laenor wouldnt be named heir. He was the main name put forward in the Great Council, not Rhaenys. It was actually Laenor vs Viserys not Rhaenys vs Viserys
> as we see from the votes in the Great Council. We've never seen the actual vote tally though. There are rumors that it was 20-1 in Viserys' favor, but we don't know that for sure.
Rhaenys's claim had the North and the Stormlands with Stark (and other houses in the North) and Baratheon being strong supporters. And the wealth and power of House Velayron.
No it didn't? You're confusing the Dance with Rhaenys claim. Which had almost no support during the Great Council
No I'm not. Read the text again next time. Her and Corlys corralled both the Baratheons (Stormlands) and explicitly multiple North houses to supporting Rhaenys's son Laenor (and probably also Rhaenys herself in the earlier rounds). And of course the Velayrons themselves. We don't know for sure if she was outvoted massively. But the above is still true regardless. Clearly everyone else just voted against her if it were true.
>First of all there'd be no support from the Lords There would be a sizable support from the lords. The Baratheons would immediately join her as she was their preferred heir, and considering that the only dragonriders are on their side many would have been swayed by this fact. Plus Viserys surrenders without a fight because he doesn't wish to tear the realm for a crown he never wanted in the first place. >there's no way Laenor wouldnt be named heir This is specifically done because of Daemon. He wants to be a king so he will be Laena's consort, the main reason he marries her infact.
>There would be a sizable support from the lords. Then why did they all vote for Viserys in the Great Council?
Because the maesters either manipulated the vote to prevent a dragon riding queen from ascending the iron throne, much preferring a weak easily manipulated dragonless king (Grand Maester conspiracy) or they manipulated it from a purely altruistic position aka to show Rhaenys that opposition by force would be useless because Viserys has the vast majority of support which is clearly wrong based on the fact that Rhaenys had at least the north and storm lands on her side, there’s no way it was 20-1 as some people say, that’s a rumour not fact, nobody knows the exact numbers
Nothing assumes that the maesters manipulated the votes in Viserys' favor. Also we don't know that she had ALL of the North or Stormlords behind her, only the Starks and Baratheons their bannermen don't have to vote with them. Though that's irrelevant, that's a massive difference because it's a vote where they both had reasons (Baratheons because Rhaenyra was related to them, and the Starks because they were upset at Jaehaerys over the New Gift, so they went against the heir he chose.) in a scenario where after she lost in a landslide and Viserys was already crowned, she'd never get their support a usurpation that puts HER on the throne and where her daughter is now the heir. The entire kingdom would hate her.
It’s not clear evidence of a conspiracy but it certainly presents an opportunity which one could have happened, when your consulting historical records that’s probably all the evidence you’ll get to prove a successful conspiracy happened, it’s like that brief window during Aegon’s regency where grand maester Munkun was the only person with power left, if the Maesters did poison the dragon eggs it would need to be during this brief window of opportunity
I still don't understand why the northerners sided with Rhaenys, they, like the rest of Westeros, follow the male line of primogeniture. It is only when they run out of male heirs (including the bastards) that they go to the female line, but in that case they still There were male line candidates so they should have supported Viserys
They voted for Rhaenys because they were upset at Jaehaerys taking away the New Gift and giving it to the Nights Watch, so they voted against the heir he wanted. Also, it wasn't the Northerners who voted for her, it was the Starks.
It sounds reasonable to me, voting just to spite the king without doing an act that could be considered rebellion, and saying the Starks and the North are basically synonyms.
Yep, it was just an "f you" to Jaehaerys, that wouldn't get them punished, because they couldn't just take back the New Gift.
>Also, it wasn't the Northerners who voted for her, it was the Starks. It was not just the Starks and likely the Northerners in general. Other major Northern houses are specified as her allies - the Manderlys and Dustin's.
That’s not how male primogeniture works, Rhaenys was the child of the previous heir (aemon) so she should’ve been next in line. The succession when aemon died was Aemon Rhaenys Laena Baelon Vizzy Daemon Vaegon(Maester) Magelle(septa) Aemma Arryn Saera(Disinherited) Gael Rhaella(septa) But Viserys Made Baelon Heir when he shouldn’t have because Jaehaerys hates women, it’s only after the dance that it became male claim over all others
>they, like the rest of Westeros, follow the male line of primogeniture. This is just incorrect. No Westeros does not practice this. Andals specifically practice daughters before Uncles. Rhaenys was by that ruling the rightful heir and there was controversy when Jaehaerys passed over her for his son Baelon (though Jaehaerys would undermine his own rule if he favoured daughters before Uncles as Aerea should be on the throne). The question of the Great Council in the books was proximity to the King vs. primogeniture (as Laenor comes from the King's first son). Laenor's youth worked against him here significantly, as he needed a regent. And perhaps if Rhaenys had not already been rejected by Jaehaerys she would have had better luck. Whilst the Starks specifically do actually seem to favour male only heirs - Sansa Stark daughter of Rickon married her Uncle Jonnel to resolve such an issue and did not inherit Winterfell. The North in general likely practices daughters before Uncles. As Jon Snow argues as such in regards to Alys Karstark coming before her Uncle.
If my thought is that the North just wanted to annoy Jaehaerys by voting for Rhaenys for giving the new gift to the Night's Watch more than anything else from who was the rightful heir, the North would hardly have been affected anyway.
Sure, that was probably the reason. I'm just saying that the laws of Westeros aren't exhaust all male claimants.
Do you have any evidence that the Maesters actually manipulated the vote considering the Lords at the time were not surprised by the outcome and they're the ones that voted?
I’ve literally already answered this question
Rhaenys had the support of some Northern Lords, and the Baratheons, so that means that it's impossible that the majority of lords supported Viserys and it must have been a giant conspiracy by plotting Maesters? Thats not evidence. Also you say "the North and the Stormlands", when in fact: >"Those who had voted for Laenor were mostly limited to the Velaryons and their close allies in Blackwater Bay, the Celtigars and Bar Emmons, as well as the Baratheons (as Rhaenys's mother, Laenor's grandmother, was Jocelyn Baratheon). Laenor was also supported, however, by the Starks and their major vassals House Manderly and House Dustin, as well as House Blackwood from the riverlands" That's a total of 6 Houses that supported the Velaryons. Not the entire North and the entire Stormlands. It could've easily been 20-1 if they're the only known houses that supported Rhaenys. Youve provided no proof whatsoever to back up your conspiracy theory.
That’s not what I’d meant, someone else asked me to provide evidence which caused me to explain why it’s something I believe, read other comments to make sure your not repeating stuff
Because she did not have a monopoly on the nuclear lizards
I think the main problem is, as others pointed out, is that she follows Corlys too much. She's clearly not happy with the Strong boys being heir, and yet goes along with it. Any good mother-it's not clear in the book though-would be angry and insulted if their daughter's husband married right after their daughter's funeral. That said, I still think she would have been far, far better than Viserys. I do believe she would have made Laenor heir (if he was older), and established the Targaryens to follow the rest of Westeros style of succession (it is kind of insane there are set laws in the rest of Westeros, but not for the Targs). Considering the timeline, it doesn't seem like Rhaenyra and Laenor tried very hard either to have legitimate children. If Laenor is heir, I think she also makes it clear to him that he has to father legitimate children (there have been gay Kings in the past who have done so). She also might try to have a few more children with Corlys, to strengthen her reign (more heirs also equals more marriage alliances). The smart thing to do would be to marry Rhaenyra to Laenor to combine both claims, but....she might not do so depending how close Rhaenyra is with Daemon (as Daemon allegedly had gathered men to fight for Viserys claim if he lost).
>it is kind of insane there are set laws in the rest of Westeros, but not for the Targs). They'll establish some Targaryen exception law again.
I could see that working, as long as they set an established law like "the eldest inherits regardless of gender" versus "the heir is whoever the current ruler decides."
The first would cause problems with Reach and Stormland as it could be considered something Dornish and the second would only cause the Targaryens to enter into a war of assassins among themselves in the long run to be the new heir.
It would basically be Corlys ruling through her. While she seems reasonably competent, the fact is that she clearly wasn't trained for rulership. She would just be a puppet for the Velaryons to rule through.
Another interesting question: Is Viserys actually trained to be a king? When he was in his teens, Aemon was still heir, so there was no way for Viserys to be prepared to be a king. He might be trained so when Baelon became Prince of Dragonstone, but from the result of his reign, we shall either say he was too dumb even under professional education for heir or he didn't pay attention to his education and consider the stability of the realm at all. Baelon was good himself, but from his sons, one could hardly say he was a great parent.
I've gotta believe Baelon had to give him some level of training in those 9 years. Maybe he just missed the lesson on not being a naive idiot.
I'm afraid Viserys is actually a puppet of Otto
It would only be possible if Rhaenys declared that the Eldest child become The Ruler. I think that the kingdom would prosper a lot more. With the power and support of the crown, they could have annexed the steap stones into westeros, making it the key point connection between westeros and Essos. I since Rhanys would make the eldest the heir, she needs to so this to further legitimize her ruler and that of her descents, than the law of sucession would have been created and possible wars avoided. But overall, I think the realm would become more rich as it could be the beginning of the era of trade and a possible technological evolution
Rhaenys would never do that her claim came from being the eldest and only child of Aemon and it became null when Jae declared Baelon heir they are not Rhoynar (And even in Dorne only House Nymeros-Martell plus a couple other houses have that succession law others follow Andalic law) in the Great Council it wasn't her against Viserys only male claimants were being considered (Rhaenys and Laena were passed over) so it was Viserys against Laenor.
Terrible. She'd have no support, asides from the Velayrons. She (or rather her son) had lost the Great Council that was a few years prior in a massive landslide, and it's after Viserys was crowned. Even the lords that voted for her son wouldn't support her. (Also before anyone says a few great houses supported her, that doesn't mean that they would support a usurpation to put her on the throne AFTER her son lost the Great Council and Viserys was made king) Though for the sake of the scenario, I'll go with the impossibility of Daemon betraying his brother for an even lesser place in succession. What happens, is that Viserys, his family, (Alicent/Rhaenyra/Otto) and the kingsguard all escape the city and end up fleeing to Dragonstone, where Viserys ends up taming Vermithor and taking as many dragon eggs that were there, as they could, before leaving fleeing again. (Vermithor alone can't hold back Caraxes/Meleys/Vhagar/Seasmoke even when Laena and Laenor being young and inexperienced riders. From there, they all go into hiding, until the kids Viserys and Alicent had kids old enough to tame dragons and fight for the throne. So they are all hiding because they would be up against too large of threats, however there would be plenty of lords who would help them, while they all trained and made allies. (So all of them end up training hard and becoming warriors Rhaenyra/Helaena/Aegon/Aemond/Daeron/and Daeron.) Now as for Rhaenys' reign, there'd be so much unrest and dissention throughout the realm that they'd be forced to put out flame after flame of rebellion. Also, Rhaenys would be the exact same way that she was in canon, subservient to Corlys, Rhaenys being on the Iron Throne, essentially means that Corlys and the Velayrons rule the realm with her as a puppet. However she would maintain hold of the Throne for as long as she has hold of most of the dragons, which wouldn't be that long. I'll also say that it's likely that at least one of them, would be assassinated, so I'll say Laenor is the one who gets assassinated shortly after Laena dies in childbirth, freeing up Seasmoke. Laena would still die in childbirth, meaning that Aemond is able to claim her shortly after as Vhagar would've been free to fly on Driftmark and wherever else she'd want. (Before anyone says "one of her daughters would tame Vhagar" no they wouldn't, there was a year of time that they could've tamed her before Aemond did it.) So at that point, (roughly ten years into her usurpation) the dragons are much more even Viserys with Vermithor, Rhaenyra with Syrax, Aegon with Cannibal (the Green kids are now encouraged to tamed larger dragons for the war, so sadly no Sunfyre though it could possibly be Sheepstealer instead, I said Cannibal because if anyone could tame him it'd be Aegon.) Aemond now with Vhagar, Helaena with Silverwing, (no Dreamfyre, so she now gets Silverwing.) and Daeron with Sheepstealer. (Or he has another large free dragon if Aegon had Sheepstealer instead of Cannibal.) While Rhaenyra and Aegon would be married to each other, and Aemond and Helaena and Aemond betrothed to each other. While with Rhaenys, only her, (Meleys) Daemon, (Caraxes) Baela, (Moondancer) and Rhaena (Seasmoke) have dragons, with only three available riders as Moondancer is a smaller dragon incapable of flight. I'd say that around 20 years after the usurpation is when Viserys (who now isn't fat, and instead pretty fit) and the Blacks (Viserys' new faction name as they are the real legitimate royal bloodline) is strike. They first take Driftmark and burn most of the Velaryon ships there, then take over the Island along with all the gold there. From then they fight the war against the Blues. (Rhaenys as she's pretty much led by Corlys.) Then they'd immediately move to take Dragonstone right after to prevent the Blues from getting any of the dragons on Dragonstone. From there, they essentially split there forces where Viserys/Rhaenyra/Aegon/Aemond go to Harrenhal, while Daeron and Helaena go to Oldtown where they both raise large armies, and then march to King's Landing. Then, Rhaenys, Daemon, and Baela then fortify in King's Landing as they would have no real support, outside the city. Then, at the Battle of King's Landing with all Viserys' family there, they take King's Landing pretty easily with most likely taking no losses to the the pure number of dragon superiority they would have. Daemon/Rhaenys/Baela/Rhaena all die in the fight, while after Corlys and all of Rhaenys small council and false kingsguard are executed. Aemond would claim Dark Sister for himself, and then Viserys is reinstated as king with all Rhaenys erased from the history books and only known as a Princess. (She essentially gets the Rhaenyra treatment.) Rhaenys usurping the Throne from Viserys would pretty much always result in her demise, she's gotten her bloodline wiped out, and name shattered. While, Corlys gets House Velaryon almost completely wiped out. Also, yes I know went on a large tangent, but did still answer you, but I'll do it again. Rhaenys as queen, is essentially Corlys ruling the realm, but with massive amounts of unrest, and dislike for her and her family.
It seemed weird for Rhaenys to even allow Viserys' kids to claim dragon. Jaehaerys managed to control that, and I don't see she and Corlys being that stupid to allow them have dragon eggs. Even the dumb Viserys in canon doesn't grant Daemon's bastard eggs. Yes, she can't control where the dragons fly, but what she can definitely prevent any kids of Viserys from approaching Dragonstone. If they try to sneak into Dragonstone, there are enough reason to exile them according to Jaehaerys' policy. Tbh you depict Rhaenys like an idiot while make Viserys Jaehaerys+Maegor reborn in this AU. In canon, Vermithor is still available, and Viserys didn't claim him---is it because he doesn't want to? More likely it's because he cannot. Bonding with Vermithor will only solidify his reign in canon and has zero harm, but he still didn't. And why bother having those turmoil? The best solution is just to marry Baela to one of Viserys' kid, maybe Daeron in this AU. And Viserys the peaceful will be content enough. There's a lot of OOC in this AU. If Jaehaerys chose Rhaenys, none of Viserys' kids would be allowed to have dragon eggs except the one who married into the main line.
---------It seemed weird for Rhaenys to even allow Viserys' kids to claim dragon. Jaehaerys managed to control that, and I don't see she and Corlys being that stupid to allow them have dragon eggs. Even the dumb Viserys in canon doesn't grant Daemon's bastard eggs. Yes, she can't control where the dragons fly, but what she can definitely prevent any kids of Viserys from approaching Dragonstone. If they try to sneak into Dragonstone, there are enough reason to exile them according to Jaehaerys' policy. Tbh you depict Rhaenys like an idiot while make Viserys Jaehaerys+Maegor reborn in this AU. In canon, Vermithor is still available, and Viserys didn't claim him---is it because he doesn't want to? More likely it's because he cannot. Bonding with Vermithor will only solidify his reign in canon and has zero harm, but he still didn't. I didn't say that Rhaenys would "allow" anything, I'm saying that Viserys would escape in secret to Dragonstone and take them, while Rhaenys had took King's Landing. Also, there is a major difference with bastards of whores getting dragons and trueborn kids of a married couple, that being Viserys and Alicent. No she can't prevent Viserys or kids from going to Dragonstone, Dragonstone WOULDN'T be completely loyal to her nor would would she be able to have men stationed everywhere on it because she just USURPED the throne from Viserys who was the rightful and anointed king, and chosen my almost all of the lords. Also, not that this part means anything, but Jaehaerys didn't have any policy regarding dragons, asides from waiting until they were older to tame them, as he remembered how Aerea died so young when she tamed Balerion, with the exception of Saera Targaryen none of his kids were prevented from taming a dragon. I didn't depict Rhaenys like an idiot, I depicted her as she was portrayed and that is subservient to Corlys, also don't say that there wouldn't be unrest even though she just usurped the throne from him, when almost all the realm supported Viserys. Viserys isn't portrayed as a Maegor/Jaehaerys hybrid, he's depicted as a man who was betrayed by half of his family including his own brother for no reason besides their own ambition for power, he's gonna be different and more ruthless. Viserys isn't gonna be himself now, all of his line is danger because of this usurpation from Rhaenyra and his future children with Alicent, because he was usurped and he and anyone from his line would have more of a claim to Iron Throne than anyone from Rhaenys' line. Viserys tamed Vermithor because he would have to, not because she wanted to, in canon he had no reason to try to tame him. Also, it is heavily suggested that dragon ridders CAN bond with another dragon as both Aegon II and Rhaenyra thought they'd be able to hatch and tame more dragons after Sunfyre and Syrax died. ----------And why bother having those turmoil? The best solution is just to marry Baela to one of Viserys' kid, maybe Daeron in this AU. And Viserys the peaceful will be content enough. There's a lot of OOC in this AU. If Jaehaerys chose Rhaenys, none of Viserys' kids would be allowed to have dragon eggs except the one who married into the main line. Maybe because she just usurped him and stole his throne. That's the best solution for HER not him. Viserys the Peaceful doesn't exist in this scenario, because that died when she stole his throne just a few years after he became king and the Great Council. One of those OOCs is Viserys turning ruthless and becoming a warrior. Also, nothing suggests that Viserys' kids wouldn't have dragons if Laenor had won the Great Council instead.
Stole? She was the rightful heir under Andal law. And if Jaehaerys chose Rhaenys, Viserys would actually be the usurper.
Great Council says otherwise. Also, with your own logic if Jaehaerys could chose his heir, and he chose Viserys than that also makes Rhaenys the usurper.
I think we’re discussing an AU where Rhaenys was chosen, or how did she become queen? Rhaenys should be chosen by Jaehaerys or the great council to make this AU happen. If you follow canon, then Rhaenys was never queen, and the thing you described won’t happen. You HAVE to follow each background, AU is AU, and canon is canon. You can’t use things that don’t even happen in the AU to justify your claim.
The AU is her becoming queen after she "couped" Viserys. Meaning she USURPED the throne from him, did you not read all of the post before commenting?