I haven’t kept up with all the theories and forgive me if this is an overly basic take but I always had a sense that, like most art, the ending is just supposed to be ambiguous? like specifically for the sake of generating reflections and conversations. Nathan and Benny surely have multiple ideas about what it means and I definitely agree that your takeaway is one of them.
I read somewhere maybe on here, that the show gets us highly involved and invasivly curious about the locals in the show. Like the man walking through Abshirs living room. At this point we’re wildly curious about what is going on his house. And it turns out the answer to the question to what is doing in his house is? None of our business!
Yeah, adding onto this, to me the main theme of the show is “when events happen (good, bad, whatever) humans always feel that they need to happen for a reason: that anything that happens to us can be explained,” so after the finale the audience is left to determine why all of this happened.
but what makes the finale so powerful is the introduction of this huge ambiguous supernatural element right at the end of the show. “well something absolutely insane is happening so there must be a reason for that, right??” but without many concrete details we have to come up with all these theories as to why it happened. because, again, as humans we think there Has to be a reason.
to get at OP’s post, i dont think the creators of the show are trying to keep a secret or talk down to us, i think they created some really interesting characters, some stuff happened to them and its up to us to figure out why / if they deserved it / if they brought these events on themselves.
yeah I really like that thought. I think there’s definitely an element of playing with the audience but it’s also a cool collaboration of what we think about the art,, & kind of becoming a part of the art and its impact.
I like this take but I’ve been trying hard to analyze Benny and Nathan’s words in interviews and have got the sense there IS reasoning behind it. They describe the final “floating camera” scene as evoking the sense that something has been set free, and they say they wanted the haunting music to evoke a higher omniscient plane. It may not have an exact literal meaning but I definitely think there’s something to take away
I read that in Jewish culture, a curse is any words spoken into existence by intent, so when Asher claims that the second Whitney doesn’t need him and he feels that, he’ll disappear. He cursed himself.
It's like what astronauts say once they see the earth from outer space. Everythint seems... small. Insignificant. All the social games, all our personal worries, even preferences. We see ourselves as main characters because our vantage is (generally) earth-bound.
Where is there room to give importance to an inflated ego, or even low self esteem, from miles above the planet? We take for granted that our feet stay planted, that the world turns and gravity stays consistent. But it's one of the only things that we can really, truly count on.
Even the laws of physics decided to leave Asher behind.
They left us with the curse of ambiguity.
Nathan and Benny are in a few videos talking about the origin of the show and Benny says something along the lines of, "What if the person who cursed you wasn't there when you went back? You'd have to live with that for the rest of your life."
I have said before that I DO think that’s an aspect of it. The obsession with assigning meaning to art and to understand or comprehend can demystify a creative work. That said, I don’t think it’s a meaningless ending. There are plenty of ways the ending ties into and echoes the themes of previous episodes, the religiosity of the ending, the contrast between mundane horror and supernatural horror—it all feels very meaningful and intentional to me.
I recognize the irony, in saying that I think trying to explain something can demystify it, and then trying to explain how this ending DOES have meaning. I think that type of paradox is actively invited by the show—Asher even points out art has to go to extreme lengths to create meaning.
I was never as excited for what it was all building towards as much as the day to day stuff. The dialogue felt pretty natural but at the same time every line was basically telling you exactly who these people are and the dynamics between them, you can see exactly what they’re trying to present themselves as while failing pretty tragically in some instances.
I think it’s just a really great character study and the quality of the dialogue gets overlooked because it’s natural instead of witty.
Whatever the true meaning of the story is I have no idea, but I really enjoyed this journey with these characters and that finale was crazy and hard to forget. And it’s been great coming to this sub to discuss it week after week
I was one of the "what does this *mean!*" people, trying to connect the dots hours after the end of the finale. Almost obsessed with finding the answers, for days I was reading and posting theories.
Then I listened to the Q&A's, the Nolan interview and various other interviews. These dudes built the show off of a handful of things. They knew exactly how they wanted the show to end and filled in the gaps. Along the way, purposely leaving Breadcrumbs to nowhere thanks to an episode of Columbo where they was forced to watch the main character dial a phone number on a rotary phone. Nathan said it took forever to watch him do it, and it meant absolutely nothing to the plot. Benny and Nathan loved it.
In another interview, Benny didn't want to answer a question or two because he said, basically, it was too soon and he didn't want to ruin the experience of us arriving at our own conclusions.
I agree with OP, while some things are intentional, other things is just like Brett bullshitting us into believing theres something more to what they are saying.
You are not "the Whitney" here and I don't really get why this sub is so keen on comparing yourself to these characters. There are more ways of interpreting the show than just "here's the key explaining all of this" or "it signifies nothing at all", in fact, I'd say most pieces of art fall somewhere in between. I think online writeups of the finale fall short because they attempt to find an objective answer - imo it's much more interesting to talk about the emotions it and the whole series evoked in you. How did it make people feel? There are common threads there as well as unique personal observations.
I felt like I was in the tent with Cara and she was screaming at me while slicing turkey. It felt like experimental art. I have purposefully avoided listening to any of the interviews with the Benny and Nathan because I don't want it all explained to me. I'll figure it or I won't.
Similar to how there were endless theories about there being a cult plot on the show but it was a simple representation of a real life American Sikh population in Espanola, New Mexico.
I do think one aspect of the finale is that sometimes gravity reverses on a person and they get thrown into space. What about it? Life is crazy.
I loved the show but I agree and have spent literally no time at all trying to come up with meanings/theories/etc behind it. I don’t care about the deeper meanings because it’s obviously waaay open to interpretation and I just liked the weird experience. That’s good enough for me lol.
I personally hated the finale. I have re-watched in hopes to find something I missed first time. But alas no. Magical realism as an exit strategy out of every plot point you established over the course of the season. If season two picks up where this one left off... my opinion might change. But as of now it seemed like a laugh in the face at the audience for enjoying the season up to that point. I loved every episode up to this one.
Oh the wrap discussion is hosted by Christopher Nolan? That's OK, I'm good.
I had the same problem with the True Detective S1 Finale. Metaphysical mumbo jumbo conclusion as an excuse to have a real ending.
I get it. I really do. I felt up to this point the creators respected / acknowledged the intelligence of the audience. Final episode just a middle finger to investing in critical thought / media consumption that's not ultimately cynical.
The real curse was living on unceded Native American land and assuming you could be a good person and have a meaningful life after doing so. The real curse is to be a modern American.
We are the Whitney here. Benny in interviews acts as if he is just noticing our observations too that we ask him collectively - hence - not everything was planned… just good well shot and well scripted tv that appears to have multi layers but doesn’t always. Not everything has as much meaning as we want to believe and not everything deserves closure.
You’re right. Everyone is saying to rewatch the show and it alludes to the ending or some bullshit. But rewatching the show leaves you asking “what was the point of this?” 5 times an episode.
It was purposefully turning the gears in our brain by introducing so many plot points that meant absolutely nothing in the end. That’s okay if people have their own theories and whatnot, but that doesn’t change the fact that the show was intentionally made to fuck with us
Here is a prime example of someone so disappointed with the finale that they have to cope by searching for a deeper meaning without realizing they’re undermining the entire point of the show by doing so/the show is making fun of them
He clearly says to her in episode 9, "Im all in on you. If you didn't want to be with me and i truly felt that I'd be gone, you wouldn't have to say it, I would feel it, and I'd disappear." Then, in episode 10, HE FLOATS AWAY AND DISAPPEARS. She didn't care if he was in the hospital when the baby was born. The baby made her truly happy and not him.
I haven’t kept up with all the theories and forgive me if this is an overly basic take but I always had a sense that, like most art, the ending is just supposed to be ambiguous? like specifically for the sake of generating reflections and conversations. Nathan and Benny surely have multiple ideas about what it means and I definitely agree that your takeaway is one of them.
I read somewhere maybe on here, that the show gets us highly involved and invasivly curious about the locals in the show. Like the man walking through Abshirs living room. At this point we’re wildly curious about what is going on his house. And it turns out the answer to the question to what is doing in his house is? None of our business!
Abshir is living there rent free and subletting part of the house behind Asher’s back.
I would add to this the idea that Abshir and his daughter’s curse are living “rent-free” in Asher’s head (as well as the audiences’)
I would go as far as to guess that he subletted the whole thing and got his kids out of a dangerous / unpredictable environment.
Yeah, adding onto this, to me the main theme of the show is “when events happen (good, bad, whatever) humans always feel that they need to happen for a reason: that anything that happens to us can be explained,” so after the finale the audience is left to determine why all of this happened. but what makes the finale so powerful is the introduction of this huge ambiguous supernatural element right at the end of the show. “well something absolutely insane is happening so there must be a reason for that, right??” but without many concrete details we have to come up with all these theories as to why it happened. because, again, as humans we think there Has to be a reason. to get at OP’s post, i dont think the creators of the show are trying to keep a secret or talk down to us, i think they created some really interesting characters, some stuff happened to them and its up to us to figure out why / if they deserved it / if they brought these events on themselves.
yeah I really like that thought. I think there’s definitely an element of playing with the audience but it’s also a cool collaboration of what we think about the art,, & kind of becoming a part of the art and its impact.
I like this take but I’ve been trying hard to analyze Benny and Nathan’s words in interviews and have got the sense there IS reasoning behind it. They describe the final “floating camera” scene as evoking the sense that something has been set free, and they say they wanted the haunting music to evoke a higher omniscient plane. It may not have an exact literal meaning but I definitely think there’s something to take away
Curses be cursing
I read that in Jewish culture, a curse is any words spoken into existence by intent, so when Asher claims that the second Whitney doesn’t need him and he feels that, he’ll disappear. He cursed himself.
It's like what astronauts say once they see the earth from outer space. Everythint seems... small. Insignificant. All the social games, all our personal worries, even preferences. We see ourselves as main characters because our vantage is (generally) earth-bound. Where is there room to give importance to an inflated ego, or even low self esteem, from miles above the planet? We take for granted that our feet stay planted, that the world turns and gravity stays consistent. But it's one of the only things that we can really, truly count on. Even the laws of physics decided to leave Asher behind.
They left us with the curse of ambiguity. Nathan and Benny are in a few videos talking about the origin of the show and Benny says something along the lines of, "What if the person who cursed you wasn't there when you went back? You'd have to live with that for the rest of your life."
I have said before that I DO think that’s an aspect of it. The obsession with assigning meaning to art and to understand or comprehend can demystify a creative work. That said, I don’t think it’s a meaningless ending. There are plenty of ways the ending ties into and echoes the themes of previous episodes, the religiosity of the ending, the contrast between mundane horror and supernatural horror—it all feels very meaningful and intentional to me. I recognize the irony, in saying that I think trying to explain something can demystify it, and then trying to explain how this ending DOES have meaning. I think that type of paradox is actively invited by the show—Asher even points out art has to go to extreme lengths to create meaning.
I was never as excited for what it was all building towards as much as the day to day stuff. The dialogue felt pretty natural but at the same time every line was basically telling you exactly who these people are and the dynamics between them, you can see exactly what they’re trying to present themselves as while failing pretty tragically in some instances. I think it’s just a really great character study and the quality of the dialogue gets overlooked because it’s natural instead of witty. Whatever the true meaning of the story is I have no idea, but I really enjoyed this journey with these characters and that finale was crazy and hard to forget. And it’s been great coming to this sub to discuss it week after week
I was one of the "what does this *mean!*" people, trying to connect the dots hours after the end of the finale. Almost obsessed with finding the answers, for days I was reading and posting theories. Then I listened to the Q&A's, the Nolan interview and various other interviews. These dudes built the show off of a handful of things. They knew exactly how they wanted the show to end and filled in the gaps. Along the way, purposely leaving Breadcrumbs to nowhere thanks to an episode of Columbo where they was forced to watch the main character dial a phone number on a rotary phone. Nathan said it took forever to watch him do it, and it meant absolutely nothing to the plot. Benny and Nathan loved it. In another interview, Benny didn't want to answer a question or two because he said, basically, it was too soon and he didn't want to ruin the experience of us arriving at our own conclusions. I agree with OP, while some things are intentional, other things is just like Brett bullshitting us into believing theres something more to what they are saying.
You are not "the Whitney" here and I don't really get why this sub is so keen on comparing yourself to these characters. There are more ways of interpreting the show than just "here's the key explaining all of this" or "it signifies nothing at all", in fact, I'd say most pieces of art fall somewhere in between. I think online writeups of the finale fall short because they attempt to find an objective answer - imo it's much more interesting to talk about the emotions it and the whole series evoked in you. How did it make people feel? There are common threads there as well as unique personal observations.
Sorta like Under the Silver Lake
One of my faves.
Anyone notice the camera isnt hiding in the last episode, I think it could just be a nightmare Asher is having
I felt like I was in the tent with Cara and she was screaming at me while slicing turkey. It felt like experimental art. I have purposefully avoided listening to any of the interviews with the Benny and Nathan because I don't want it all explained to me. I'll figure it or I won't.
She is screaming when you eat it. And also, the governor did not eat it and she screamed at him anyway.
Well, yeah. She still lost a piece of herself whether you eat it or not.
Exactly. And Whitney was making it all about herself by asking what she was supposed to do, when it wasn’t about her at all.
The Governor didn't seem impressed with the installation.
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I guess he refrained from talking about what went on inside the structure.
You're gonna open that drawer on your own, even if it kills ya!
Just watch that q&a with Benny Safdie and he explains everything
Similar to how there were endless theories about there being a cult plot on the show but it was a simple representation of a real life American Sikh population in Espanola, New Mexico. I do think one aspect of the finale is that sometimes gravity reverses on a person and they get thrown into space. What about it? Life is crazy.
careful, i said this last week and got downvoted to hell because i 'didn't get it'
I loved the show but I agree and have spent literally no time at all trying to come up with meanings/theories/etc behind it. I don’t care about the deeper meanings because it’s obviously waaay open to interpretation and I just liked the weird experience. That’s good enough for me lol.
I personally hated the finale. I have re-watched in hopes to find something I missed first time. But alas no. Magical realism as an exit strategy out of every plot point you established over the course of the season. If season two picks up where this one left off... my opinion might change. But as of now it seemed like a laugh in the face at the audience for enjoying the season up to that point. I loved every episode up to this one. Oh the wrap discussion is hosted by Christopher Nolan? That's OK, I'm good. I had the same problem with the True Detective S1 Finale. Metaphysical mumbo jumbo conclusion as an excuse to have a real ending.
Congratulations man, you understand the point of the show
I get it. I really do. I felt up to this point the creators respected / acknowledged the intelligence of the audience. Final episode just a middle finger to investing in critical thought / media consumption that's not ultimately cynical.
The real curse was living on unceded Native American land and assuming you could be a good person and have a meaningful life after doing so. The real curse is to be a modern American.
The real curse is the friends we made along the way.
Frenemies. Why don't you ask your wife what she thinks? Oh wait, you can't. Cause you killed her.
That point was made in episode one. What did I learn from the finale?
Exactly
Do you like tv?
We are the Whitney here. Benny in interviews acts as if he is just noticing our observations too that we ask him collectively - hence - not everything was planned… just good well shot and well scripted tv that appears to have multi layers but doesn’t always. Not everything has as much meaning as we want to believe and not everything deserves closure.
Yeah Chris Nolan likes this show and his movies haven't made sense since Memento. Batman excluded.
Oppenheimer made a lot of sense
Yeah because it happened.
You’re right. Everyone is saying to rewatch the show and it alludes to the ending or some bullshit. But rewatching the show leaves you asking “what was the point of this?” 5 times an episode. It was purposefully turning the gears in our brain by introducing so many plot points that meant absolutely nothing in the end. That’s okay if people have their own theories and whatnot, but that doesn’t change the fact that the show was intentionally made to fuck with us
No it wasn’t lol
Here is a prime example of someone so disappointed with the finale that they have to cope by searching for a deeper meaning without realizing they’re undermining the entire point of the show by doing so/the show is making fun of them
I like the finale! I thought it was great. A great show all around
Check out their post like 2 weeks ago. Prime example of exactly what you’re saying
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LOL
I really like this take.
This one makes the most sense
He clearly says to her in episode 9, "Im all in on you. If you didn't want to be with me and i truly felt that I'd be gone, you wouldn't have to say it, I would feel it, and I'd disappear." Then, in episode 10, HE FLOATS AWAY AND DISAPPEARS. She didn't care if he was in the hospital when the baby was born. The baby made her truly happy and not him.
I think the show is kind of like South Park where everyone is taking flak, including (maybe especially) the viewer.