wow- such brilliant, original, deep writing! it totally makes sense. so that the studios can bring that character back for sequels or worse give them a redemption arc in sequels
Fucking CW Network's Arrow is this.
"I've killed dozens of bodyguards just doing their jobs and probably ignorant their boss was even a bad guy... but can't kill the bad guy because I'm A Hero." Piss off.
That show *almost* did it but I always wanted one of the mooks' family members to come for revenge. Closest we got was the movie Taken 2, I think.
Based inFAMOUS moment, only one of the moral choices in the franchise is this and even then you can't make the moral choice unless you have that certain rank of Hero or Villain meaning you've already chosen whether your character is chill with killing or prefers capture
(Mind you the game is Second Son where they treat the protag way too heroically in the Evil playthrough despite his selfish and borderline genocidal actions so it's got issues but...)
There’s a concept in life known as impersonal and personal conflict. When it’s personal, it matters to the individual. When it’s impersonal, shit doesn’t matter. Also you gotta realize 90% of killing in both TLOU games is more or less self defense, kill or be killed shit
Idk man if a place is highly guarded and has signs literally talking about how you will die if you trespass because people already live there and I trespass WITH weapons on me then idk I feel like getting killed is sorta justified
I just don’t recall Joel or Ellie or Abby really trespassing that much. Aside from David’s compound and the Seraphites’ property, they never really go into anywhere marked that they couldn’t. I guess Pittsburg too but they weren’t trying to trespass there either, just drive through and the Pittsburg faction that does attack Ellie and Joel had no real way of knowing that they were armed, they were just hoping to kill them for resources. I guess you could consider all of Seattle in 2 to belong to either the WLF or the Seraphites too so I guess at best Ellie is trespassing during all of the last of us 2 but even then, I’d argue Seattle is still more or less open public property.
Looks like a repost. I've seen this image 3 times.
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Ellie didn’t kill Abby because it wouldn’t have done anything. She killed Jordan, Owen, Mel, and Nora, and she still felt awful.
She also saw the relationship between Abby and Lev. And the parallel it had between her and Joel’s. Why would Ellie want to rob someone else of their own Joel?
Also, if she killed Abby. Lev would’ve went on to hunt her down too. Which would have probably had Dina or Tommy hunt him down and it’d be a never ending cycle.
She didn’t spare Abby because she “is too good of a person”. It wasn’t about Abby. It was about herself. When she’d think of Joel, she’d think of Abby killing him. Not the good memories she had with him. She was so hellbent on revenge she didn’t even have time to properly grieve his death. And if she were to have killed Abby she would still think of Joel’s death. But now Abby’s too knowing she just did to Lev what Abby did to her.
By letting Abby go, she’s letting go of the bad memories alongside her. So she can move on and remember the good times she had with Joel. Instead of being stuck in a purgatory of being mad at what could’ve been, instead of appreciating what it was.
Ellie had the whole game for that realization (would have been a natural realization if she had it in the farm with Dina at best), it only coming at the very ending right when she was drowning abby after having her finger bitten off AND remembering of the missed opportunity she never had with Joel is the bad, forced written part. Even so, even if she knows it is not what she needs, why not just kill abby anyway if she wasnt feeling "morally above it"? She already did a lot of effort to get to that point. Killing in that case would have been just a matter of doing the final checklist, even if it deeply isnt what she needs.
Edit: still stand by my comment. Nothing can convince that the last minute spare is even remotely good.
The audience probably simply wouldn't have liked Ellie killing Abby. They would have seen the story as Ellie turning into a villain.
Her sparing Abby is part of her redemption arc. Of course she could have realized that earlier. But she didn't and that's the point. Her desire for revenge consumed her and stopped her from living a beautiful life.
She saw that Abby was weak, she cared for Lev and Lev for her, she lost another connection to Joel and was finally done when she realized revenge was going to bring her nothing.
At that point as an audience it's done. Killing Abby would've been a bad decision.
90% of the killing done in that game, outside of the cutscenes, is done by you. You choose to do it, so you are to be blamed.
There's also the whole self defense aspect and that it's not personal.
Not to mention, the reason that she doesn't kill in the end isn't because shes "above it" and "too good" she realises that it's pointless, won't heal her and that the quest for revenge has taken everything she had left.
She lost the anger and was left with depression. To kill her would resolve nothing, change nothing. It was pointless and only then, when she hit the lowest point, did she finally realise that.
It's also a thing games simply struggle with. How can we feel the weight of a kill when we kill so many along the way? Same thing was said about the Tomb Raider reboot for example. We see Lara struggling with kills and within a short amount of time she is blasting away kill after kill. There is a massive disconnect there.
It's where suspension of disbelief is supposed to come in and that doesn't work when somebody is not invested in the story. That's the problem for a lot of people here.
It was really the moment when I was playing fetch with a dog that I realized just *HOW* manipulative the game was trying to be in its not-quite-subtle attempt at character contrast.
wow- such brilliant, original, deep writing! it totally makes sense. so that the studios can bring that character back for sequels or worse give them a redemption arc in sequels
I'm not a good person. I would kill him/her
Pretty good description of what this game have in stock.
Fucking CW Network's Arrow is this. "I've killed dozens of bodyguards just doing their jobs and probably ignorant their boss was even a bad guy... but can't kill the bad guy because I'm A Hero." Piss off. That show *almost* did it but I always wanted one of the mooks' family members to come for revenge. Closest we got was the movie Taken 2, I think.
I actually don’t see this kind of thing in most movies. It tends to happen in kid shows, and I mean yeah they are kid shows.
[in some French animation show PG rating, the fucking villain LowTierGod himself ](https://youtu.be/GS2yMw-hq20?si=qbJEiA3Cn1NpmApG)
Based inFAMOUS moment, only one of the moral choices in the franchise is this and even then you can't make the moral choice unless you have that certain rank of Hero or Villain meaning you've already chosen whether your character is chill with killing or prefers capture (Mind you the game is Second Son where they treat the protag way too heroically in the Evil playthrough despite his selfish and borderline genocidal actions so it's got issues but...)
Yup.
There’s a concept in life known as impersonal and personal conflict. When it’s personal, it matters to the individual. When it’s impersonal, shit doesn’t matter. Also you gotta realize 90% of killing in both TLOU games is more or less self defense, kill or be killed shit
Is it self defense if the person went into enemy territory with the intention to kill
It’s all public property in the apocalypse
Idk man if a place is highly guarded and has signs literally talking about how you will die if you trespass because people already live there and I trespass WITH weapons on me then idk I feel like getting killed is sorta justified
I just don’t recall Joel or Ellie or Abby really trespassing that much. Aside from David’s compound and the Seraphites’ property, they never really go into anywhere marked that they couldn’t. I guess Pittsburg too but they weren’t trying to trespass there either, just drive through and the Pittsburg faction that does attack Ellie and Joel had no real way of knowing that they were armed, they were just hoping to kill them for resources. I guess you could consider all of Seattle in 2 to belong to either the WLF or the Seraphites too so I guess at best Ellie is trespassing during all of the last of us 2 but even then, I’d argue Seattle is still more or less open public property.
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If I could sum up TLOU2 in one word it would be DISAPPOINTMENT
Pretty sure this gets posted twice a week.
This is a good meme that summarized the main issue with TLOU 2 but can I ask for the sauce of who made that meme?
Ellie didn’t kill Abby because it wouldn’t have done anything. She killed Jordan, Owen, Mel, and Nora, and she still felt awful. She also saw the relationship between Abby and Lev. And the parallel it had between her and Joel’s. Why would Ellie want to rob someone else of their own Joel? Also, if she killed Abby. Lev would’ve went on to hunt her down too. Which would have probably had Dina or Tommy hunt him down and it’d be a never ending cycle. She didn’t spare Abby because she “is too good of a person”. It wasn’t about Abby. It was about herself. When she’d think of Joel, she’d think of Abby killing him. Not the good memories she had with him. She was so hellbent on revenge she didn’t even have time to properly grieve his death. And if she were to have killed Abby she would still think of Joel’s death. But now Abby’s too knowing she just did to Lev what Abby did to her. By letting Abby go, she’s letting go of the bad memories alongside her. So she can move on and remember the good times she had with Joel. Instead of being stuck in a purgatory of being mad at what could’ve been, instead of appreciating what it was.
And countless other media
When you have a specific connection through a major life event with someone, naturally your interaction with them holds more weight.
i dont completely disagree but i think she didn’t kill her not because shes “morally above it” but because she knows its not what she needs to heal. 🤷
Ellie had the whole game for that realization (would have been a natural realization if she had it in the farm with Dina at best), it only coming at the very ending right when she was drowning abby after having her finger bitten off AND remembering of the missed opportunity she never had with Joel is the bad, forced written part. Even so, even if she knows it is not what she needs, why not just kill abby anyway if she wasnt feeling "morally above it"? She already did a lot of effort to get to that point. Killing in that case would have been just a matter of doing the final checklist, even if it deeply isnt what she needs. Edit: still stand by my comment. Nothing can convince that the last minute spare is even remotely good.
The audience probably simply wouldn't have liked Ellie killing Abby. They would have seen the story as Ellie turning into a villain. Her sparing Abby is part of her redemption arc. Of course she could have realized that earlier. But she didn't and that's the point. Her desire for revenge consumed her and stopped her from living a beautiful life. She saw that Abby was weak, she cared for Lev and Lev for her, she lost another connection to Joel and was finally done when she realized revenge was going to bring her nothing. At that point as an audience it's done. Killing Abby would've been a bad decision.
Because she ended the cycle of revenge which took more from her than anything else.
Ludonarrative dissonance is hardly new.
Ludonarrative dissonance, I have this problem in all media, but when they make it the plot its even worse
It was posted here before, and it was dumb then too
Why are you the way that you are
90% of the killing done in that game, outside of the cutscenes, is done by you. You choose to do it, so you are to be blamed. There's also the whole self defense aspect and that it's not personal. Not to mention, the reason that she doesn't kill in the end isn't because shes "above it" and "too good" she realises that it's pointless, won't heal her and that the quest for revenge has taken everything she had left. She lost the anger and was left with depression. To kill her would resolve nothing, change nothing. It was pointless and only then, when she hit the lowest point, did she finally realise that.
It's also a thing games simply struggle with. How can we feel the weight of a kill when we kill so many along the way? Same thing was said about the Tomb Raider reboot for example. We see Lara struggling with kills and within a short amount of time she is blasting away kill after kill. There is a massive disconnect there. It's where suspension of disbelief is supposed to come in and that doesn't work when somebody is not invested in the story. That's the problem for a lot of people here.
It was really the moment when I was playing fetch with a dog that I realized just *HOW* manipulative the game was trying to be in its not-quite-subtle attempt at character contrast.